How To Shoot Film at Night: My Metering Techniques & Approach
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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Metering for film photography at night can be a bit intimidating at first, but with proper technique and understanding of your gear, it’s not that difficult. In this video, I’m sharing my workflow using a spot meter, as well as touching briefly on using your camera's internal meter, as well as reciprocity failure, and why scanning your night images at home can be beneficial. Hope this helps you!
Intro: 00:00
Spot Metering Method: 00:33
Spot Metering At Night: 03:50
Internal Metering At Night: 08:22
Scanning Night Images: 12:49
Reciprocity Failure: 17:10
Close: 18:45
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I agree w/ your approach. In a lot of my night photos where I'm really trying to average the scene I simply end up with highlights that are too bright and dark areas which don't really have much detail anyway. Having the highlights more in mind, along with the realization that at night darkness is simply dark, is a much better mindset for capturing the spirit of these scenes.
For sure. It's ok for things to be black.
Hey Kyle, here are a few things that might help.
1. Some older film cameras have spot metering, an excellent example is the Olympus OM4 (and variants). That camera can take individual spot meter readings and it can average multiple spot meter readings you take. For delicate metering requirements, the OM4 (and variants) is probably THE best 135 camera.
2. Basically every consumer compact digital camera can be set to spot metering. Many of these compacts are ridiculously cheap, are smaller than that dedicated spot meter you showed. Rather than shelling out money on a dedicated spot meter, get a compact digital camera, models with a zoom lens are perfect. Zoom into the area you want to spot meter, change the metering mode in the camera to spot meter, take your reading with whatever camera settings translate to your film camera setup. You can use something as ridiculously small as any of the older Canon PowerShot S90, S95, S100, S110 or comparable cameras and you can literally pocket them, they take no space at all - added bonus: you get a point&shoot on top of a spot meter and they cost a fraction of a professional spot meter.
Such a great idea.
Good tips. Thanks for sharing! I know some people do use digital cameras and are happy with that approach.
Thank you for taking the time to share!
Blue Velvet on the big screen, is perfect example of the power of deep black shadows
Thanks for this. Your approach is very easy to understand and follow, and you described the motivations behind your metering decisions very well.
My first SLR, a Canon FTb had a semi spot meter, which was as far as I know the closest I could get to a build in spot meter in the mid-seventies. At least in the amateur class of cameras. It was one of my main reasons for choosing a FTb and a feature I really missed when I later upgraded to more advanced cameras with average or center weighted metering. Of course, even the early metering systems worked well with most scenes but was easily confused by more difficult lighting.
What I started doing when a camera lacked spot metering and the scene obviously needed it was simply going really close. Then the area I'd like to spot meter would fill the frame and the center weighted metering would work fine. Not always possible, but it usually worked well.
great insight! thanks for explaining this so well
This is the video I have been waiting for!! Thank you
You're welcome. Cheers.
Inspiring, as always✨
Love Night Photography on film!
I really appreciate your explaining how details work-so helpful. :)
Amaizing Kyle, you gave us so much of your know how in this video, thank you so much for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was wonderful - thanks!!
This is the best video ive found on the subject. Thanks
You're welcome.
Lovely example shots, thanks for the great video
What a great explination! I'll definitrly try this method for future work
Cheers, Erik.
This was super-informative! 😊
Nice, will try this and thanks.
Super helpful!!!
Thanks for the information!!
Your videos got me started with film photography
Happy to hear that. Cheers.
Great video, Kyle. Your video confirmed that I'm doing things right when it comes to night photography with film. I like that brought up how all reflective light meters actually work - they are calibrated to expose for middle tone and just that understanding is tremendously helpful for beginners, and it took me way too long to figure that out. My approach has always been to meter off bright lights for night shots because my spot meter doesn't pickup a readings for really dark areas so I just naturally resorted to metering off highlights and overexposing by 2 to 3 stops. What I was able to do this last winter was figure out my exposure settings without a meter because I was using the same film type and camera and going out every night. After awhile I was able to "eye" my scene and calculate my exposure with reciprocity failure in mind. It worked well for the most part but only because I was doing it so often, and also checking my results while looking at my field notes for each shot.
Cheers, Andrew. Definitely one of the most important things to know is how a meter works. Something that isn't talked about enough.
fantastic video. thank you.
Glad you liked it!
I've got a roll of 800T that i bought with some city based night photography in mind but I've been a bit unsure about how to metering. Your process actually makes a lot of sense!
Glad you found it helpful, Chris.
Back in the day I had an Olympus OM-4t, it had centre weighted plus spot metering 2% of the frame, and if that wasn’t enough it could average multiple spot readings. At the time Kodak introduced TMax 3200 film and a dedicated developer, it was big deal, no more pushing TriX 3 stops to get the same sensitivity and you would have a far better latitude without the increase of grain and contrast. I shot at night for 3 months to document the arrival of New York’s, Guardian Angels in Toronto’s neighbourhood of Parkdale. It was a sketchy neighbourhood back then but my choice of camera and film never let me down in the darkness of back alleys and underground garages, one thing I didnt have to contend with here, and I dont believe was mentioned here was colour temperature of film. Anyway Kyle, always enjoy your videos and dedication to the craft.
This channel is legit - TY!
You're welcome. Cheers.
Great explanation, appreciate this 🤙🏼
Glad you found it helpful. Cheers.
This is awesome! Thank you so much! :-)
Thanks for this !
You're welcome.
Thanks for breaking down your techniques! I shied away from shooting film at night for a while, but the other day I thought to myself, if I meter for the right part of the frame, it really can’t be that hard. And turns out it’s not. Gonna go out with my room mate later today and give it a shot! =)
Thanks, for the tips regarding how to meter to properly expose the highlights. A quick tip for people using the average or centre weighted meter built into their camera and don’t own a spot meter. I figured out, you can hold the camera as close as possible to whatever you are wanting to take your exposure reading off in the scene. This will basically allow you to “spot meter” parts of a scene, just be careful that you aren’t blocking or changing the light on an object when you hold your camera near it, which could mess up the exposure reading.
Yep, great advice. Cheers.
Thank you for this. I’m now going to start rescanning a bunch of lab scans 😮
Really great stuff! Haven’t dabbled in night photography yet, mainly because I didn’t have a good game plan for metering. This approach makes a lot of sense, so thanks for that!
Also, just finished my first look through (?) read through (?) of An American Mile. Really nice work! Just came back from a trip up in Mammoth and really wish I had a bit more time coming back to stop and photograph some of these small towns. So many great scenes there. The book is definitely encouraging me to make a trip back up there solely to stop and do that.
That's awesome. Thanks for picking up a copy! I appreciate the support.
Agreed on home scanning can be better. I finally built a dslr scanning stand and purchased a proper medium format film holder. Results were at least as good as the ultra large scanning offered by the Darkroom. NowI just need to reduce the amount of time per image. Scanned film at 1:1, stitched together with Microsoft ICE, inverted and adjusted curves.
I recently upgraded to a spot meter and what a difference. Much more balanced exposures. Might try some night images soon too.
Definitely the way to fully understand the light in a scene.
Interesting to hear about the lab vs home scans. I’ve had a few lab scans with very muddy results so good to know it’s not totally my fault 😅. Would you put the difference down to the operator (ie you knew what you were photographing and the look you were going for, vs the lab operator didn’t) or more down to the equipment used (differences between a dedicated film scanner vs DSLR/Mirrorless etc)? Great video none the less!
Kyle, another very helpful and easy-to-follow video. A couple of questions. Do you use your large format camera for any of your night photography? Do you develop your film.. If. yes, have you done a video on your developing process?
I haven't done much night photography lately, so no, I haven't been using the 4x5. And yes, I do develop my own film. I did a tips video a while ago, but haven't done a complete video about developing.
This video has me wanting to go through my archive and scan negatives that I wrote off because of poor lab scans. 🤘
Definitely worth doing!
This was super helpful! Question for you about scanning at home with your GFX: what color profile are you shooting your scans with? I’m curious to know the variables involved on that end and how that affects your final scan?
There is a quote by a street photographer, I forget who exactly, who said "In nature, theres no such thing as true black". Well, I think night photography is the exception :)
Great video! Very clear and nicely organized.
One thought - wondering if the GFX sensor makes a big difference with camera scanning.
I did a 'cheap camera scanning' video not too long ago where I compare the GFX against an older Fuji XA3. Results were surprising.
I use the same valoi system, and would recommend it too. I must confess I balked at the price initially as I had being using the Essential Film holder (a lightweight 3D printed device with manual advance) which was a third of the price. Night and day (pun intended). The Valoi is so quick and stable as I was always 'chasing' the previous incarnation across my light table and spending some time aligning the scanned output in LrC. As for lab scans, the same experience as you. I guess you get the operators subjective view of your image along with low optical quality from bulk scanners thrown into the mix, not always a good combination!
For sure, David. Lab scans can be great, and often are, but sometimes the results can throw you off. One of the reasons I prefer to scan my own work. Glad you're enjoying the Valoi setup.
Can I just be random? I really like the look of your room. It really looks cozy. ❤
Another great video. I would really appreciate the aperture and shutter speed for these picture examples.
Also, what type of film used would be interesting.
I was taught that night shots (very low to no light, by default, is 2-4 stops depending on the distance from any light source. Taking into account how hard that light source is.
I love what you do and I appreciate it all. Thank you
Cheers. These were mostly on Portra 400.
Thanks. Very clear and helpful. I know from personal experience and talking to others that phrases like bump up confuse people. Bump up by two stops is going from 5.6 to 11 or to 2.8? What are you bumping up. In conversation, I now always say over or underexpose by two stops. A similar problem with ND filters. The same density can be called 3 or 8. It is confusing, because a higher number can mean less. Also, with a filter that says two, I don’t know if it means two stops or only half (1 stop is two times more light).
Very informative video. Had a quick question though. Do older film cameras with internal spot meters (specifically like the Contax S2) work the same as a modern DSLR would in spot metering mode?
Thanks for this. What about small/pocket digital camera instead of spot meter? I say digital so you could right away see if something is off.
Great video! If I were to shoot night scenes on Provia, and spot meter for a bright highlight as you did, would I need to add 2 stops just like with color negative film? Can Provia still retain detail in the highlights? Thank you.
That is great information! :)
I am aware of the reciprocity failer thing but haven't yet understood how to measure the light in a night shot.
Keep up the good work?
If you have a spot meter you can use the Zone system Kyle mentioned - It sounds super confusing to start off with but it's quite simple really: It basically gives you a visual cue as to where to place your metering. 0 being total black with no detail, X(10) is total white with no details(The sun for example) and 5 is Middle Gray(the tone of Dark Skin or weathered wood) - The whole system is 10 stops.
When you use the spot meter it will always measure for middle gray - that is 'ZONE 5' - Since you know this you can make adjustments like Kyle does. So instead of just doing what the meter said, he adds about 2 stops and places the reading on Zone 7(tone of very light skin / shadows in snow).
I hope that helps at all. Google the Zone System, super helpful :)
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome video. Thank you so much for doing a deep dive on this. One question: instead of increasing by a stop or stop and a half by lowering the aperture or slowing down the shutter speed, can you turn the exposure compensation dial by +1 or +1.5 instead and achieve the same results?
All that the exp comp dial will do is change your shutter speed for you automatically. So there's no difference really.
Thanks for the info Kyle, also where you pick up the RTS Contact. like it..been looking for one for along time.
Cheers, Edwin. I found this one on FB marketplace a while ago. One of my favourite cameras.
Awesome pictures, how do you like your Contax RTS btw?
Absolutely love it. Working on a video about it.
Amazing video
Can you tell wat filters you used in some of the frames ?
I tried ones to shoot at night with a tungstan balanced film but its doing somthing i dont want , it makes the nice tungsten light to look whiter , what do i miss here?
Thx a lot. I was just wondering if you overexposed the film by 1 or 2 stops as well ?
It's always a pain when you are used to metering for the shadows and highlights with a spot meter and averaging and then you go out at night and feel confused. Using the zones and also the method you use I feel is a pretty safe way of getting usable results.
For sure. Contrast ratios become quite extreme at night.
when you compare the details at 14:36 from your scan and the lab scan you can clearly see almost no grain in the lab scan and some in your home scan. is that something that regularly happens and why is that? just to be clear: I prefer the more grainy homescan totally :)
thanks for the great explanation in the video!
Cool video, thanks. Would you change you metering approach depending on whether using 35mm film versus medium format film? Or color film versus black and white? Assuming all negative film and not slide film…thanks again!
I wouldn't change with the format. When it comes to film, regardless of b&w or colour, it would all come down to the specific film I'm using. But with that being said, I'd treat flexible films (like HP5 and P400) very similar.
Very helpful video Kyle! Just wondering though, what is it exactly with home scanning that gave better results? Do you adjust the exposure of the camera when scanning on individual frames, to adjust for the brights or darks that may be extreme in that individual frame? (I’ll look through your videos to see if I can find one on your scanning techniques). Thank you.
Great tips! I don't have a spot light meter, just a ambient. There is probalbly also a phone app but would you trust a digital (or an film camera) with a spot meter on it?
Yep, you could get away with a built in spot as well. In the end, it's all about testing and getting to know your gear.
I also scan my film at home 35 + 120. One of the issue I have is that it's really hard to keep the film/scan result clean. Could you do a video sharing how you keep the scan cleaning?
👍👍👍
Is it allright as well to measure in the light of a street lamp? And if so, where do I place this? In zone 9?
I still have so many problems with camera scanning and NLP consistency, wish some company would just put out a new modern scanner that is decent
What film stock did you use?
Wha do you use to home scan?
thank you for sharing!! Quick question, I shoot tri-x 400 at 1600, how would you suggest I calculate that into the app you recommended?
Hmmm, that is a good question. Are you compensating during development for the underexposure?
After watching this video, I feel like a bit of a hack, but I typically just point my reflective meter at the subject and that works well for me. If I want to be extra cautious, I'll bracket.
If it's working, don't change it.
Here a doubt: spot metering gives you a medium gray exposure like center average metering? I should overexpose 1 or 2 steps from that lecture too?
I just needed to use up a roll of delta 100 , I figured I would try your approach to metering at night , I spot metered the highlights of street lights with sekonic and double checked with my Pentax spot meter , both gave me f5.6 1/30 th , I added 2 stops so exposed at 5.6 1-8 th , putting the highlights on zone 7 I also did another 2 shot s and added an extra stop for luck so zone 8 the 4 negs have controllable highlights but next to nothing in the shadows and mid tones
Perhaps you method works well with faster films but it was a big fail on delta 100 metered at 80 iso ?
I'm hooked on hp5 pushed 1 stop with a slightly reduced development in 510 pyro
I will try your method again with faster film and perhaps it will give me better results
Hey Austen, keep in mind as well it will differ for every scene depending on the contrast. Sometimes night scenes can be crazy contrasty, and if you're using a spot meter, it's still good practice to meter other areas of importance and make sure they aren't going to be lost if you're basing your exposure off your bright areas. Sounds like maybe you had a big contrast difference. I hope you have better luck with the HP5 test.
I have a Nikon 8000ED, as well as GFX50s. I know you used to have the 9000ED. Are you completely happy with your switch to camera scanning? I did notice the blacks in the samples you showed weren’t as deep, is that simply from camera scanning at a brighter exposure than the Nikon scanner?
Yep, definitely happy with camera scanning. The difference in blacks would have just come from the conversion and software.
Why were the lab scans so bad? Your home scans are way sharper as well as having better colours. I’d like to know the lab so I never use them!
Also, how about metering by taking a mirrorless camera and copying the settings to the film camera? A viable option?
Not sure. This was so long ago that I can't remember the exact lab. I was travelling and using a number of different ones. As for using a digital camera, not something that I've done. But I'd assume it could work as long as the settings were the same.
Very interesting video, now i wish for a BW companion.
I don't think I've ever liked the look of any scans I get back from the lab. I got scans for a while when I first started out but eventually I got a scanner. While that was better, I still didn't love them. Once I gave scanning with a digital camera and converting with NLP, I never looked back. So much more resolution than any home flatbed scanner or lab scanner without breaking the bank for a drum scan.
How is color cast with night photography? It's daylight balanced so is that hard to control?
Yeah, lab scans can vary widely, all depending on the lab you use of course. I've had mixed experiences. I've found NLP does a good job with the night stuff when it comes to conversion.
Can you achieve this type of results with a regular light meter? Thanks.
What do you mean by regular? Incident meter?
It makes you wonder why you don't get a matrix meter, or at least a modern camera such as a Canaon 1V, Minolta A7, A9, or Nikon F6, etc...
So if I were to use the camera’s meter but on spot metering mode, such as some have, eg the pentax 645N, a rough summary of replicating the spot meter method would be: choose something bright but that isn’t a direct light source, and expose about 2 stops darker than that, right…? I must admit I’ve only used its default green mode (multi segment) so far but will experiment.
You want to expose two stops brighter. As the meter reading would be to make that light source look middle grey.
@@KyleMcDougall brighter, yes. Obviously… that’s what I meant 😀
How do you do the immediate drawing on the screen at 6:05? Is there an app for that?
It's a screen marker app for mac.
@@KyleMcDougall So the app's name is Screen Marker?
I presume incident metering is out of the question.
Any idea how night photography was done before light meters? Were there any rules of thumb similar to sunny sixteen?
Incident metering could work but would be very situation specific.
Hi Kyle..
What app do you use to calculate the reciprocity of films?.
Reciprocity Timer
@@KyleMcDougall Thanks🙌
Sorry, total noob question here: you said a few times "then bump that up by 2 stops". Could you explain what you mean? With a practical example?
Steakhouse weighted metering 🐄
Meatering* 😇
😂
Can’t you just set the histogram to 3/4?
when comparing lab scans to DSLR/CSC home scanning you're comparing modern CMOS sensors to late 90s/early 2000s CCD sensors, lab scanners naturally don't have great dynamic range or much sensitivity to shadow areas in the same way CCDs struggle in contrast or poorly lit scenes, just something to bare in mind
scanning at home with what exactly? different cameras = different results, not always better than lab
with gfx 50r? right, I just have spare couple thousands $ to spend on that + other accessories (I still can't find proper stand and light table in my country, these all fancy companies won't deliver here and if they would, it still would cost a small fortune)
lab scans was done with what scanners? frontier, noritsu? why dud you tried to edit jpg file at 15:24 instead of original scan file from lab?
I recently did a video using a cheap digital camera to scan and even compared it to the GFX50R. The results were surprising. Check it out if you’re interested.
They should just call it an 18% or grey meter.
Really good to see someone who actually knows anything about photography talking about metering techniques. There is an alarming amount of younger photographers on social media spouting utter bullshit about how metering works/what is possible etc. They don't understand exposure values. They don't know what the zone system is. Yet they have their lo-fi hiphop videos, a Mamiya 7 and mummy/daddy's bank account supporting their flagrant use of incredibly expensive film stocks. Please, listen to experienced photographers like Kyle and not these kids with haircuts. They often have little idea of how things work.
Arm hair on point!
7:50... you keep bringing the blacks and shadows up to show what you're "not trying to do".. .that's not what would happen if you exposed a stop or two up. It wouldn't just bring the shadows up. Just bring the exposure on your slider up to show what it would look like exposed one or two stops up. You're tricking your viewers. It wont look HDR if you exposed for the shadows.