Why You Don't Need Thunderbolt For Professional Audio
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- The subject of which data transfer protocol is most suitable for audio interfaces is an ongoing one. With computer technology in a constant state of change, it can be difficult to predict which format will be permanently adopted.
For audio engineers and musicians, this can result in confusion when trying to decide which format is the most suitable for their needs, especially when factoring in the potential for future upgrades to their computer hardware.
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How many audio channels do you use in your studio at the moment?
Max. 12: Babyface Pro + Octamic II + DAV BG No. 1 😃🍀👍.
Studio: 3x Stereo for monitoring. For recording (on location only): 32 channels with 4XTC over madi to my ufx+ in the control room (and a Digiface USB for backup in the stagebox)
Thank you RME for nice explanatory video. Currently we use 28 channels with UFX+ and 2x Octamic XTC. However, I in my personal field experience, USB interface is more susceptible to DAW's DPC latency variations, than Thunderbolt or PCI-E interfaces for 32 bytes buffer size. In our studio we use these parameters for low latency audio transmission over network.
fireface UC: 8 analog ins, 4 outs and all adat I/Os. ty for this lesson)
Still rocking Fireface UC: 6x Analog In for synths/drum-machine, 1x Instrument In ,1x Vocals in, 4x Adat In for IOS audio coming from Babyface Pro connected to Ipad. Needed more I/O for external effects/mastering gear and have upgraded/added UFX+, but not setup yet.
On this note: where can I find info on how to use/daisychain 3 RME AUs simultaniously on Win10 ?! Thinking of connecting UC and BFPro to UFX+ per ADAT, but any related info much appreciated.
I have a UFX II running on USB 2.0 making great recordings. I easily recorded 14 channels at 192 Khz at 24bit with no issues. This guy is speaking the truth.
:)
Hey I am curious, when you switch to 192k, how many inputs does totalmix disable? On my UCX, it only gives me a total of 8 analog inputs to use. How are you able to get 14 channels then? I am wondering if this is a DSP limitation of the device or of the USB 2.0 bandwidth.
@@pnutbuttajellee1394 Good question. It maintains the total 12 analog inputs, but only allows 2 digital inputs and 2 outputs. It's respective to the clock.
Great explanation… not that I’d disagree given my own nearly 10 years of absolutely trouble-free RME interface use. They just work - and always sound great.
Glad that you are happy Mike!
@@RMEAudio Just improve the Babyface Pro design
Totally agree - I had so many very annoying interface reliability issues until I switched to RME. Now, none in years and TotalMix gives complete flexibility after you learn it. RME fan for life.
@@tuneunleashedWhat do you feel is wrong with the design?
I applaud RME team for their Rock Solid drivers. many years of use without a single audio dropout. Impressive!
I will never own another interface that is not RME. Never had a single problem with it in over 10 years, great sound, great software.
I was going to get "the standard" Universal Audio apollo Twin. But I am a PC user and I needed more inputs. Audient was also seducing me with the auto gain function, but... I will follow my gut feeling and go with RME UCX II and ARC! The specs, testimonials have convinced me completely.
Thank you for explaining!
Yes, my Clarett 8PreX from Focusrite didn't manage the low latencies of my Fireface 802 even though it was using Thunderbolt 2. The drivers sucked and Focusrite didn't really care about that product line too much in regards to driver updates.
Happy RME-customer now! And totally fascinated about my USB-interface being faster than the Thunderbolt one from before :D
RME for the win !Thanks for bringing some much needed truth in this over hyped market. You guys rock!
Thanks Vincent :)
What I love about thunderbolt and the usb-c connector, isn’t the bandwidth, it’s the additional power delivery. Having to use a separate dc adapter for any audio gear is just plain dumb, and totally unnecessary.
The actual connector itself is far superior as well. You can use a USB-c connector while only supporting USB 2.X data stream.
I would like to see more audio devices that get rid of the old bulky square style connector and replace it with type-c, and support the latest power delivery standards as well.
This can be done without upgrading the data stream to thunderbolt or USB v3.X, as this isn’t necessary for most devices, as the video explains.
FWIW when i bought my Babyface Pro FS in 2020 RME also sent me a USB-C cable
@@meticmusic Yea, they sent you a USB-C for the HOST side connector.
The BabyFace Pro FS still has a USB type-B connector on the *device* side.
At least it’s bus powered though, I mean that’s really nice.
But honestly, just my opinion here, all USB connectors aside from Type-C should be end of life’d.
They are not as durable, it’s more difficult to find cables for them, and the connector itself isn’t as user friendly. Type C is just mo’ better!
@@5urg3x That is happening, but it won't be overnight. It would mean millions of tons of already manufactured parts being scrapped.
Nick, USB-C is completely separate from Thunderbolt. Most USB-C interfaces are either 2.0 or 3.0.... just saying. The difference is 100% mechanical most of the time.
@@jas_bataille Yes, that's why I said "Thunderbolt _and_ the USB-C connector" - Thunderbolt originally used mini DP
I feel like i have to show this math once a month on a facebook thread of a new interface. I remember when Steinberg announced the URxxC series and all of the comments were about the usb3. In a livestream Q&A i asked them what's the benefit of USB3 over 2. Thy couldn't response and turned it to "USB C connector is becoming standard" without talking about USB3. It's really just marketing at this point....
Had a FF800 in the studio and for bigger (20ch) recording sessions and a Babyface Pro for portability. Upgraded the FF800 to a UFX+ and used it in USB3 and TB mode. I see no difference in performance regarding latency and stability!
The music community needs passionate people like you that try to inform people - keep up the good work! We get a lot of questions around similar topics. Therefore we felt the need clarify some misconceptions. As we said, it's all a question of necessity.
Thank you for the clear explanation on the USB 2.0 standard and how it applies to DAW’s. USB 3.0 does have an advantage over USB 2.0 because while 2.0 is limited to 500 mA and 3.0 Is limited to 900 mA. USB 3.x Is better suited for bus powered mobile audio devices. Also there are speed differences between 3.0, 3.1 gen 1 and USB 3.1 and 3.2 gen 2, But all I care about is the stability of the drivers and the quality of the DAC,s. In my opinion the advantages thunderbolt three and four devices offer is in video capture but not audio as far as my use. Thank you for the video
You’re welcome :)
I build my DAW computers around my FF800 - which means my Firewire card is perhaps the most important component of the PC for me. The fact is that for us, recording acoustic duo songs, the FF800 is and always has been insane overkill, with us using less than 10% of it's functionality.
I encourage everyone to upgrade to the latest thunderbolt and USB 3.0 based interfaces so the second hand market gets flooded with perfectly sound and reliable RME gear for me to buy ! :)
Interesting strategy ;)
Agreed. Still rocking both my FF800 & UFX to this day. They have yet to fail me and are more stable than most other interfaces out there given their age.
Sadly enough, i can't use my FireWire audio interface anymore. Drivers weren't supported anymore and i didn't want to go USB again since i was looking for a new interface anyway. So i thought more of it like: Buy now with the new standard (Thunderbolt 3/USB-C) and hopefully get as long as possibly can out of that port!
If you're looking into RME audio interfaces at the moment this is probably the best way to get one... buy a firewire card into your computer and get a used firewire interface.
Due to heavy inflation and shortage of electronics the only way to get for example a Babyface Pro FS at the moment seems to be buying a used one for more of the price than what a new one would have cost not even a year ago - not very alluring.
@@stefanbregenzer I personally was looking into RME options a couple of years ago, but now i have an Apollo twin X. I'm looking to buy an x8. But for now, the twin X will do as it is thunderbolt 3 and supported greatly with my Mac Pro and Macbook Air.
UFX+ at 32 samples latency under OSX is usable mainly with TB3. USB3 in the same env. = audio drops from time to time on my iMac 2019.
With USB 3, there are often transmission problems if incompatible USB 3 chips are built into the hardware (computer, etc.). Please check which USB chipset is in your Mac. A computer can have several different USB chipsets. Then it depends to which port the interface is connected and to which chipset this port is connected. USB 2 is more suitable for audio transmission than USB 3 due to the higher certifications.
Excellent video and long overdue.
I can't believe how much misinformation is still being spread about this topic.
Sure, USB 2.0 is technically outdated but the only improvement with USB 3.x I can think of would be a higher power limit.
I'd assume USB has got such a bad reputation when it comes to audio interfaces because most manufacturer's drivers (especially on Windows) are performing pretty bad, making extremely high buffer sizes necessary.
It's so great that you keep making great USB interfaces and don't go Thunderbolt exclusive like some of your competitors do nowadays. The integrated PCIe lanes might give a slightly better performance but getting Thunderbolt to work on a Windows PC is just another nightmare to deal with.
Thank you! Because we're building our drivers in-house, we can always assure best performance.
That’s why I’m an rme guy all the way. The drivers are superb.
Early USB interfaces SUCKED and I was guilty of this. I can't believe how good my UCXII is, I've been PCI only for so long and it was purely bc of memories of old cheap interfaces. Oops
RME has perfected their devices and software so much in my recent upgrade I stuck with RME 2.0 and don't regret it at all. Latency is still superb, rock solid stability and harmonic bliss. It's just that good. Don't buy into the 3.0 and/or thunderbolt nonsense for audio. These products are the best there is
The babyface pro FS has by far been the best music/audio decision I have EVER made!!! This thing blows all the different stacks of interfaces I have previously bought of the water! It shows up to work, reliably, every-single-time! Thank you RME!
Fireface UC beta user here. Still mixing and recording with it on my third machine after almost 13 years. RME drivers are still amongst the most reliable I‘ve ever encountered, and thus they are my first choice at all times.
My FF 800 has served me very well, my new 802 is jaw dropping! Love that steady clock!!
My Fireface UC has been working flawlessly for 12 years now, still going great with every modern computer that I upgraded to in the meanwhile. TotalMix remains useful and effective all along as well. Thank you!!!
The best soundcard manufacturer, have UCX for 7 years absolutely no issue with it, the drivers are incredible i dont even know i have soundcard. Also it still catch to my raising demands to what i need like 5.1. loudness level snapshots, quick config form switching from multichannel to stereo. Guys without you life be much more painfull for me. Exceptional work
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoy our work!
Great video!! I was working during 10 years with my FF400 Firewire under extreme conditions (such as dust, extreme hot, vibrations in festivals and stages) and it never let me down. But I had some problem when trying to find laptops with proper firewire interface. Complementary to this issue related to the protocol interface, it is the great quality firmware that you supply with your interfaces. I have other audio interfaces and I know what I am talking about... And this video it is perfect to explain in a proper way what I was trying to explain to many friends without technical background. Thanks RME!! Just waiting to buy the next one.
Thanks for a video. I still enjoy my HDSP 9652 since 2003, FF800 since 2007 and ADI2 Pro since 2016 ... my next step in near future is Madiface under USB2...all these card are still running totaly 100% ... I cannot say, how am I thankfull for your incredible products!!! Whish you all the best. Tomas.
Hey Tomas, thank you for your support!
I have to say my babyface pro has been the most reliable bit of electronics I have ever owned. Not a single drop out, crash glitch, pop or accidental full volume in 4 years. It is honestly the only usb device I have ever owned that has connected and worked first time 100 percent of connections made, really great stuff. Sounds great, and hope to use for years to come.
Great explanation! Sounds like this was a lesson learned after RME's earlier adoption of (now obsolete) firewire. USB 2.0 appears to have a functional longevity similar to MIDI. Thankfully, my old Fireface 800 also has SPDIF and ADAT outputs for workaround connectivity. Better still, these outputs can be used to link the old FF800 to RME's latest multichannel audio interfaces (i.e. UCX II).
Finalmente um vídeo sensacional mostrando isso. Fã da RME!
Dá-lhe BR
Brilliant. My fireface 800 and Babyface original (usb) have never let me down. RME gear is SO bloody good, well-built, great customer support and reliable…FireWire still works too
Glad you still enjoy your FF800!
So true! I've upgraded my rig a few times, just pop the firewire pci card in. Also, I remember a few years back I had a power supply go out in my FF800 and immediately got in contact with RME and they sent me a the part I needed and didn't treat me like an infant. Will always stick wtih RME.
I think it's the software - the drivers - that makes a big difference as much as the protocol and that's where RME really shines, at least in my experience with Windows 10/64. Though USB 2.0 seems perfectly fine, I'll stick with my RME PCIe card that I've had for 10 years already. Thanks!
Thanks for this video. As someone who was just recently in the market for a new interface, I was very curious about this and didn’t find an answer at the time.
RME audio interface hardware is great, I will agree! However, not sure I would rely too much on USB 2.0 for low latency recording as I found that utilizing a buffer block size of 32 caused too many dropouts/crackling, etc., sometimes even at a buffer size of 64, whereas Thunderbolt devices seem more efficient while utilizing a low buffer size of 32 while recording and maintaining very minimal latency and not have to worry about dropouts and crackling. And of course, there are other variables to consider such as system CPU, core count, PCI's, etc. Your explanation of highway and speed (many channels) does not make sense in the real world for (as close to) real-time recording. I'll stick to thunderbolt thank you!
You're comparing apples to oranges. Besides involving completely different controllers you're also comparing different drivers developed by different companies for different hardware. The communication standards are not the culprit there
@@NamelessSmile I stand by my comment as I am involved in various hardware-dependent audio driver development.
@@Shred_Rocket lol that's fine. Doesn't mean you are correct, even on a fundamental level
For live use lots of synths etc, 48/128, about 10 ms of latency, usb is not doing it. Sound cards have way lower latency. 15 years of experience.
Incredibly happy user of the UFX+ interface!
:)
Still rocking my UFX. Love RME!
I love my babyface pro FS and the software support. Couldn’t recommend RME enough!
Thank you, Sean!
The best interfaces, period! Thanks for all the wonderful work!
:)
Have had a original babyface since 2011. Still using it, and 0 desire or need to upgrade. Still being supported with new drivers and all, RME is the best.
This is the exact reason I trust RME over other companies that try to sell you on gimmicks. The only interfaces I’ll spend money on.
I prefer USB-C more because everything in my life is now down to one type of connector rather than higher bandwidth.
Not so much on gear that stays in the rack. But for devices I travel with, I'd prefer just a single cable for all.
Usb C is not Usb 3 or Usb 2. It’s just the connector
@@Noisa I know. But they are still using the old style big USB connector.
@@annekedebruyn7797 I just bought a usb c hub with older connection options. Or you could just buy a usb c cable. Another expense, I know, but it’s easily remedied.
@@Noisa But that's exactly my point. Everyone is moving towards one connector across the board. I don't mind USB2.0 bandwidth but it is time to let go of the old connector.
@@annekedebruyn7797 tbf a cable is like 10$.
There’s definitely some point to be made on sustainability though. But not including a cable would be pr-suicide (and including multiple cables is wasteful). The question is - what’s more common now - usb A or C connectors?
You're the best. I had UCX, UFX & Babyface Pro. Now I have UCX II, UFX+ & Babyface FS. Everything's fine on USB
Thank you so much for your support, Shlomo!
I love my UCX - RME If you wanna send me a new audio interface I'll allow it :) haha. - 10/10 on every product I've used. I've seriously only been using RME for 16 years and I'm never looking elsewhere. Great job guys and great video.
when i studied music production the chief engineer in the studios told us that the advantage of thunderbolt over usb-2.0 is not the bandwidth but the communication protocol which reduces latency.
he also said but with less explanations that the future of connections in the music industries will be RJ45 connectors rather than usb at all, i can't remember exactly why.
Engineers are like doctors, they all have different opinions…
While I can agree usb 2.0 is fine in most instances. USB 3 allows for more power delivery and the USB-C connector is the way moving forward.
Yup but at least there's always adapters a USB 2 to USB c
@@bluebird1954 what are you, Apple?
I've been using a Fireface 802 since 2018 and it rocks solid. Very well video. It makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the great explanation! I'm a very happy UFX II owner and constantly brag about the reliability and feature set to my fellow Windows-based studio engineers. Thanks for being one of the few companies that recognizes that PCs belong in the studio too.
Great video but I do believe that with onboard DSP processing on newer interface's they do benefit more using thunderbolt and USB 3 as it needs the bandwidth when sessions get quite big and latency has to be kept next to zero.
Really down to preference and what is best for your situation I guess.
IMHO Onboard DSP is going away. CPU's and GPUs are so incredibly more powerful now a days than they were 10 years ago, the newest generation of Apple, NVIDIA, and Intel now have specific AI functions that we might see in use in pro/semi-pro audio in the next few years. The extra CPU power is not longer needed on most modern computers and DSPs are not nearly as flexible as a CPU. Plugins that used to only be great on Apollo DSPs can now be emulated easily on CPUs instead (check out Plugin Alliance especially Brainworx products).
Onboard processing won't change the necessary bandwidth, and the latency won't be different anyway. Either you have enough bandwidth and it works, or you don't have enough bandwidth and it doesn't work. DSP processing might increase the latency, but it has nothing to do with the connection protocol being used.
@@ianjohnson3546 the emulations never needed to be on dsp for any reason other than tracking with no latency. Once you have to send a signal to a computer and back out you have to play with buffer sizes and it gets annoying. If you have a dsp accelerated interface you can plug in your instrument or emulate your preamps on the way in, monitor and print them with no latency. It was never about computers being weak it was about tracking latency. That will never change no matter how powerful computer become due to having to send and receive signals. If you have the processing on the way in it deletes that.
Wow and just like that - today the biggest player in onboard DSP - UAD - just announced that many of their plugins can now be run natively on Mac M1 with no UAD hardware DSP! Never have I had a prediction come true so fast. Just 3 days ago I predicted the coming demise of DSP right here!
@@ianjohnson3546 wow! Can you post a link to that announce please? I cant find it =(
RME know their stuff and I love it. While i can't afford a majority of their equipment, i have my prized Babyface pro FS. A Loyal fan for life.
I don't know... I still have some strong doubts. First I believe all those specs discussed about USB and thunderbolt specs are their BURST rates, not continuous speeds over time. USB was designed for high burst rates but then peters out real fast. Firewire, the one that no one liked, was a transport protocol designed for high speed streaming, so continuous. This comes in handy when your song is longer than 1-2 seconds. My Mackie Firewire mixer gives me 1ms in and 1 ms out latencies over 16 channels and I can place pretty much unlimited processing plug-ins per channel on the system and main busses and still play and record "live", here everything POST effects and never even need to think about latency. Are the best and most modern systems today able to do that? So far, none that I have found.
To just record is the EASY part... but record 16 tracks with 10-15 ITB plugins and as many outboard effects racks as you can fit on each channel (the Mackie hardware supports 6 AUX sends), output to your speakers and record 10 more channels playing along with the first 16 tracks at the same time and have no discernable latency... that is the real test. Or if you are really adventurous, try adding video and play everything without the need to to sync anything up like words to mouth motion after layering 5-10 instruments and several singing tracks. That is where you start to really see how good an interface is or isn't.
That is an extreme misunderstanding of how computers and specs work regarding those transmission protocols. USB can be a bit more complicated (after all, on a fundamental level, everything inside your computer is typically connected via PCIe SOMEHOW these days, whether that be through the chipset's lanes connected directly to the CPU's registers or through directly attached PCIe lanes and the CPU's registers.) The reason USB can be more complicated is that multiple USB root hubs are branched off from PCIe since the bandwidth requirements of USB are typically not nearly as high. This means that depending on what's RUNNING on multiple hubs, your speeds could fluctuate as the bandwidth is reallocated towards higher priority IO processes. But you misunderstand the specs; those specs are continuous transfer rates. There really isn't such a thing with computers as "burst rates." That's just not how they work. When you see data transferring through Windows and the graph move up and down on the speed of the transferred file, that is not because the interface is "bursting" and then slowing down again. It's because of the nature of the data being transmitted. CPU and handshaking overhead has always existed with more modern connections like this and will probably always be a thing, and depending on the types of data being transmitted and even what particular block of data is being currently transmitted, actual speeds can vary, even if the total available bandwidth is still the same. Now, could there potentially be advantages to formats that are more directly connected to the CPU and memory? Of course, that's the whole point of Thunderbolt and DMA. Thunderbolt *IS* essentially 4x lanes of PCIe. It's basically a direct window into the PCIe connector that a graphics card or networking card (etc) would use. This advantage still doesn't really matter all that much outside of channel counts though, as the directly available bandwidth and the type of data being transmitted is a known constant, and thus this video is 100% correct.
Currently using a lendt rme interface + 12mic to record my band and wow the drivers are good!!
I never commented on an RME video before, but I was just asking myself this question the other day...crazy coincidence. Happy UFX II owner here!
Firewire has DMA. It always has. That might be the only reason for going thunderbolt really. DMA does improve latency.
That is what I try to tell people for years now... I ust about 4-6 Channel at once at the highest. Most of the time it is 2. I habe the UCXII so I can have everything connected and do not have to plug cables in an out. I love it.
RME never dissapointed, good explanation, and very clear
Still rocking my FF800 with my M1Max MacBook Pro. How many top-flight audio interfaces still work PERFECTLY with the latest computer hardware after 18 years?!
I’ll wait…
So you are saying Thunderbolt 3 is only better because of its DMA (Direct memory access) which bypasses the CPU for more functions but is not faster than USB 2.0? If yes, then can you explain why Thunderbolt interfaces like the Apollo Twin X is much faster than all USB 2.0 audio interfaces?
I've been using my FireFace UC since 2014 along with an ADI-2 FS that I have added just recently. Excellent combination for my home studio, both in terms of sound quality and reliability. Also latency has never been an issue.
Thunderbolt has less latency, since it "talks" to the CPU directly using PCIe lanes, instead of going through the chipset (USB).
The fact that you have the best drivers in the market for USB, that produce latency numbers which are close with Thunderbolt interfaces doesn't mean that you should stick with USB. If you managed to combine thunderbolt's ability to use PCIe lanes with whatever clever techniques you are using on your USB drivers to achieve that low latency, the results would be amazing.
I strongly believe that the next generation of your interfaces should at least be hybrid USB/Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is a superior connection protocol, don't be complacent having the best USB driver TODAY and don't make videos defending the use of USB 2.0 in Audio in 2022.
Competing thunderbolt solutions already have lower latency than yours and will keep getting lower, while I am sure you have reached the limit with USB years ago. Get with the times, or get beaten by the competition soon.
RME has made reliable and solid interfaces within a reasonable price range for years - for a narrow customer base. As a manufacturer RME also has to take into consideration the cost designing a new PCB to adapt to a new protocol, develop new drivers and how many interfaces they're going to have to sell to cover that cost. USB2.0 is widely used and RME delivers their own, excellent drivers for all platforms, even Linux.
If you think you need Thunderbolt connectivity, then go ahead and use other solutions. At the end of the day I respect stability over ( useless ) numbers race. Like buying a car while staring at the 0 - 100 km/h acceleration time - just to drive at 40 km/h in city traffic :)
@Tuomas Helin As I said, they have the best USB driver TODAY (it was also in capital letters on my original comment). I am not talking about today, where RME USB drivers are close in latency (but still not beating) thunderbolt interfaces. They have already reached the limit of USB in terms of latency. Thunderbolt will always have the ability to go lower, since it talks directly to the CPU, bypassing the platform's chipset. Its not about bandwidth, like they keep saying on this video, its about how fast the interface can "talk" to the CPU. RME will HAVE to switch to thunderbolt one day, if they want to stay competitive/relevant. It would be nice if they didn't have to delete this video saying "you don't need thunderbolt", when they release their thunderbolt interfaces ...
Rme hdsp 9632 for life 🔥 I’m using it since the release date and I’m am Still amazed
Using a first gen Fireface UFX in my studio, always works flawlessly!
And the Video was uploaded the day of my birthday... is that a sign to get an RME? I am still Dreaming to have one at home, as I used to work with one on a studio, where I was working Years ago, never had any issue !!!
RME is rock solid and made with it like 6 albums in a raw !!!
Is it possible to have both TB and USB connections on an interface? The UFX+ shows that yes it is indeed possible. How much more does it cost to have both?
Is it possible RME can write superb drivers for TB as well?
RME thunderbolt drivers on the RME Fireface UFX+ sucked. People had to use the USB drivers. RME is a bunch of lying scumbags
As an user of Fireface UC allow me to NOT be convinced. And speaking of drivers? What you said is valid for the drivers of more than one year ago, you had 2 recent drivers updates and the performance of my unit is worse than before. And nothing is changed on my computer, just your drivers and of course MS updates that are pushed on us on automatic fire.
Hey Andrew, sorry to hear that. Could you explain a little bit more?
@@RMEAudio Well, after the driver update that was sometime last year in November I started to hear a powerful pop in the speakers if I turn them on before the interface, and a relative low volume at start, not correlated with the one on the unit display, touching the fader in TotalMix will make the audible volume jump to the level shown on the unit display. The second driver update which was sometime at the beginning of this year, the volume glitch disappeared but the pop in the speakers at start is still there. And it is annoying btw, if not dangerous for the speakers. Sometime I forget and turn the unit on before the speakers. I am on Win10, and using Yamaha HS8 monitors.
Thank you, this actually cleared up a lot of the questions that were at the back of my head.
Glad we can help out!
I blame the fact that you can't install USB drivers on Macs. When I first got into recording, I was told that you didn't need to download USB drivers for Mac. "They just work" as they say. Still, every USB interface I tried with my Mac had significantly more latency, so I just assumed they were inherently slower. I recently helped my friend set up his new HP Omen laptop and Focusrite 2i2 USB interface. After we installed the drivers and made sure they were properly selected in Reaper it was just as fast as my iMac and Thunderbolt 2 interface. My mind was blown. It's crazy how the right driver makes all the difference.
That was news to me. Thank you.
Right. Class compliant drivers are most of the reason USB gets a bad rap. The other part is Hubs.
Wow. Thank you for clarifiyng it! Over 3 years I am with my trusty babyface pro, and it is awesome piece of gear!
Ok, agree... BUT! even if a 90's tech is more than capable doesn't mean you have to stick to it at all. Many computers are moving to only USB C ports, so using USB2 in your devices will lead to people using adapters, which actually affects the workflow, even more when not everyone is purchasing good professional adapters, most of what you can find out there are cheap chinese stuff
THANK YOU for making this video, I've been saying this for years, people just follow the marketing hype, "latest and greatest" even if its not benefiting them in any way.
The problem its not USB its just for Mac users it can be difficult in some situations or in the future.
That’s exactly the point RME it’s a windows platform
@@ninolacroix6364 no it’s not lol….it works perfect in Macs as well.
@@tuneunleashed combination with UFX Plus and M1 Pro macOS 12.5.1 it’s a big mess end of discussion.
I had to send back the UFX Plus now im using Apollo X8 a wonderful thing plug and play no panic no headache
Mac users have to demand better from Apple.
I use RME Babyface Pro FS and I happy with it. Thank you, RME
I have used the Babyface for years and it is sooo good and reliable!
It's only got two XLR, what else does it have.
From what I understand Thunderbolt is best because USB Protocol has a message that is read by the computer with an acknowledgement and response. Those process take time and then from there the audio is sent to where it needs to be sent. Whereas Thunderbolt works directly on memory and doesn't need to read and respond and then allocate. Not that USB is bad for certain projects but Thunderbolt is far superior.
I prefer Firewire and Thunderbolt while I don't use multichannel in/out more than 16 (24/44.1k) and not need lower latency. Audio interface system is not only "AD / DA" but also an user's main audio instrument. Although USB interfaces are good for portable & budget, crash more including minor ticks, clicks & unstable connection because it is still critical in audio. FWs and TBs have significant less crash. Bandwidth isn't matter.
Thanks RME. Still using Fireface 800. over 20 years. 😁
I ditched my physical guitar in favor of PC amp modeling software a few years back. I’m not saying that USB doesn’t offer sufficient “data transfer rates”, but you can’t tell me the round trip latency of Thunderbolt isn’t WAY better than USB. The DMA that Thunderbolt offers makes a big difference for software monitoring.
If you try a RME USB interface, the RTL is easily as good as Thunderbolt. For what ever reason, RME just makes really good drivers compared to other companies interfaces. Check out Julian Krause's videos and he shows this.
There is one aspect worth mentioning - USB 3.x interfaces can be bus-powered. Huge advantage if you ask me...
It can be an advantage, but not all ports, hubs, and power delivery circuits are made the same. Having external, dedicated power still has advantages.
I don’t own an RME anymore but when I did, it was absolutely the most stable and reliable interface I had ever used
I'm starting to itch for the FS version of the UFX II (UFX 3?) and I'm hoping it comes with AVB (or Dante option) and enough DSP to run a loopback channel without requiring the sacrifice of an input channel. And maybe enough to run an amp sim. Okay, fingers crossed!
My circa 2003 RME 96/24 audiolink is still serving me well. Built like a tank.
:)
What is not mentioned here is that USB is still prone to issues, you need to make sure you have a compatible USB controller chip on your computer. Typically the VIA chips have shown to be problematic. Additionally, Thunderbolt as a protocol tends to perform better than USB in that there are less hickups (pops, crackle etc.) when the CPU is taxed or processor peaks occur, for example when opening file- or web browsers when simultaneously using a DAW - At least based on my own experience.
Right. There are problems at the host implementation level that no amount of RME custom work at the usb device level can overcome. Ground loop noise problems is one of them.
Just a reminder for forthcoming watchers of this video:
1. Thunderbolt uses exactly the same protocol as FireWire used to.
2. Thunderbolt does not use the same contact as FireWire used to. It uses the same contact as USB-C.
3. EU has now a directive to make all phone chargers with USB--C contacts, within 2 years. And subsequently the phones too.
4. Thunderbolt from version 3 and up is royalty free.
That's the only thing you need to keep track of. Think of that before you buy adapters or any soundcard. And USB-A contacts plus USB 2.0, regardless of drivers or who makes them, still cannot bus power most RME units, except maybe Babyface.
All of this true and for the vast majority of use cases it’s going work flawlessly. But with DMA you are less likely to experience problems on the edges. Problems during update cycles etc. I have been using thunderbolt with Apollo 2s since they came out. They have worked flawlessly. In all probability, a RME would have worked just as well. Depending on the processor and the poorly written drivers of other companies demanding a share of the processor cycles scared me. My next interface protocal will likely be on Dante for basically the same reasons. YMMV.
RME Audio = Real Masters of Engineering Audio
Now can you just make some hardware. I've been trying to get a Fireface UCX II for 4 months now and they're still no where to be found. What's happening?
I am dumbfounded, as an audio engineer, on how much the majority people on the internet can be wrong.
First of all to address the oppositions : USB-C is uniquement naming the *mechanical connector* and *not* the type of bandwidth. You could have a Thunderbolt over USB-A or B (there is simply no demand for it). Second of all, for bus-powered interfaces, USB 3.0 to 3.2 gen 2 protocols are sufficient for the vast majority of interfaces. If you have a really high channel count, then using a buss powered interface is ridiculous (instead you're using a Babyface which is a unique product). Third of all, buss-power is *not* equivalent to grounded power from the wall! Period. Your computer's circuitry simply isn't designed to give the best power delivery possible. It's one thing to say "oh I know" when someone point out that you're calling USB-C as a new type of bandwidth altogether... but you're still doing it.
I'm not sure what's hard to understand, meaning no disrespect, in the fact that you are extremely far from an expert if you suddenly forgot this extremely simple fact in your argumentation.
I tried a few of the best AIs, I miss my UFX and UCX. Time to come back, Fireface UFX III!
USB-C is the better connector, mechanically, over the blocky Type-B. And more importantly, it’s all about PD! Thunderbolt/USB-C/USB3/4 allows for power delivery, greatly reducing power-brick proliferation in the studio. But you correctly point that USB-2.0 if sufficient for current audio processing bw-delay product.
I remember being surprised when Anthelope Orion 32s started popping up in many analog mixer studios still rocking "just" USB 2.0
Your interfaces are sturdy as fuck...wish I could afford them.
Buy second hand!
UFXII owner, Superbly reliable. Thanks guys.
"Thank you for watching" - Thank you for work!
:)
Best Windows Driver out there, love RME 👍🏻
While I agree with pretty much everything in the video, I'd like to see the benchmarks that show the insignificant / negligible difference in latency between USB2 and its more modern counterparts.
Just search for UFX Plus via USB and Thunderbolt. I watched a video a few days ago. No difference in latency.
why are people so stubborn? the developer is showing you all the information and you can google everything and yet people are yelling USB - C for no fucking reason
@@ShablulZoem The point was made towards the end of the video with no further elaboration. The only comprehensive resource on the Internet (the LL performance database) is a multiple hundred page forum post you have to sift manually through. Data from RME would be better and definitely would be more proper than just stating the claim and leaving the proof to a user-unfriendly resource.
Doubling down on this, there are people who claim to use both and that they found that Thunderbolt performed more stably under high CPU load, which is where I find myself at all the time. USB is still USB with all its limitations.
I don’t just need low RTL, I need stable performance at low RTL under high CPU load conditions.
@@ShablulZoemthat is my case..😁 that it doesn't matter that thunderbolt is more modern and has more power. this video showed it all. maybe it's just a matter of time to acquire an RME.
When you say latency, are you referring to dpc latency? Because after having my daw glitching when mixing/mastering, because of overloaded buffer due to heavy vst usage, running latencymon I discovered that the weakest link was the USB interface. I would have sound dropping while my CPU was still at 30%. Switching to PCIe sound card did the trick, after that I could use up to 80% cpu before the audio buffer starts glitching.. (at 2048 buffet size) So I really feel that people should talk less about latency and more about real time processing capacity, because that can, and will influence the audio buffer capacity of your PC, and make it so that you can, or cannot, use your cpu to full capacity. After that I went as far as when upgrading my PC, chose an expensive motherboard with low dpc latency measures to be sure the communication between PCIe and CPU would be as direct as possible. After that I couldn't fill the audio buffer with my normal usage and had to do a stress test... It goes way beyond what I ever will need! I even could start reducing the buffer size a bit while mixing/mastering. So now I have a super expensive hdspe Madi FX, Wich I don't use even 10% of it, but I'm super happy with it!
PS sorry for my crude English
@@whome3911 Gigabyte Z590 Aorus Ultra. i5-11600K. 32gb 3600mhz cl14 ram. Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 850W psu. Onboard GPU. 2x 1tb Crucial P5 Plus nvme + 4tb HDD. With RME hDSPe Madi FX. It's not top of the line but I think this setup will be enough for me for a good amount of years.
the USB problem might be also a problem with your chipset drivers. so it's really hard to tell if it's really the audio interface or your mobo drivers not doing well, even USB 3.1 has a lot of problem it self when it comes to latency...
That’s the problem from usb. A usb 2.0controller can only talk to one usb device in a moment and won’t do any faster than 1000hz(1ms), so one device affects all. I switched to TB because this exact problem. My recording ruined by my usb keyboard suddenly unplugged. You can see how many usb2.0 controllers by using a software called HW64info. see how many EHCI controller or usb2.0 root hub you got. If you got more than one try find the ports for the spare controller, and use it only for your interface.
No doubt true for other peripherals as well, such as mice and keyboards.
I always thought the reason was for long term support, when I was recommended Rme by an engineer I was told expect about 15 years service from whatever interface you buy, they update drivers for everything.
Utterly reliable hardware, great support and fantastic software in total mix.
many brand such Focusrite supports many of their old AI for quite a long while, my Scarlett 8i6 which is 10+ years old are still supported and being updated, also Motu does it. now a days, you dont really need to worry about it as many brand supports it at least 10 years which is the maximum life span of your hardware once you want to switch to a newer tech. But then again the biggest key is the drivers, the stability and support for OS updates later on.
@@yasunakaikumi well said, however i have both a focusrite clarett8pre and an rme multiface 2, and the asio drivers on the rme are just a level above focusrite. the multiface 2 is probably a 20 year old product as well
Well I’ve owned multiple Motu units and about 3 to 5 years seems to be their lifespan, although they have replaced units free of charge when they do fail. I also own a focusrite soundcard, 8i6 mk3 I think, glad to hear their support is good too.
I’m glad to hear other companies do similar to rme, only makes for a better experience for more people. I’ll gladly recommend rme based on my own experience of the units I’ve purchased.
Why the hell have you made interfaces with firewire then (USB 2 was not available at the moment?) my fireface 800 is almost obsolete right now but what a great piece of gear. The only thing i have to say is that mic pres are too sensitive to phantom power hot plug when used with a patchbay, blown them several times.
I understand that usb 3 is no need, but someday, I hope USB3 will be new USB audio standard not only for speed. USB 2 shares GND with VCC, and data +, data -. somewhere of differential signaling of usb 2 data line is unbalanced. I have experienced 1KHz ground loop noise. and I prefer full-duplex data trasnfer...
RME is the GOAT.
I just discovered you RME Digiface USB, I have been searching for a way to get 32 In's and out's using rack interfaces for a LONG time and its GENIOUS why nobody else has done this is beyond me, however there is one thing missing. Please in the future could we see a 64 in's 64 Out's ADAT interface like the Digiface but with double the track count. Sure most people won't need 64 Instrument inputs or outputs (hell I NEVER will) but having the I/O count would do wonders for also supporting external outboard equipment (Like the Craborne Audio ADAT500R8 and other series 500 rack units) Also a pair of XLR or 1/4" Jack Monitor out's with some form of metering on the front to detect and prevent Clipping. If you made a unit like this for £700 or less I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But to be on topic of this video, 64 In's and 67 out's allowing for ALL of them to be full 24Bit 196KHz surely USB 3.0 + or thunderbolt would make sense, even just due to required power draw?
You can use several interfaces at the same time. But on Windows the have to use the same driver. For example 2x Digiface USB. The RME driver supports up to 3 interfaces. You can use the headphone outputs as line outputs and you need a clock connection between the interfaces.
I'm still rocking an RME Fireface 400 on a Hackintosh with a Firewire PCIE card.... doesnt miss a beat
pun intended
All I know is your PCIe RayDAT card is the the best interface I've ever used.
Thank you!
I love USB A - B connection. Its not nice to find out when running theater performance that usb-c connection is loose and Qlab is full red crosses.
Speaking of those “custom drivers“ I really wish y’all would update your MIDI Remote utility that allowed for remote control of the three (3) RME Micstacy preamplifiers that I own. That was one of the main reasons I went with RME.
Hey Paul, we updated the Midi Remote last year. Please check it out on our website :)
@@RMEAudio No, they have not been updated. The current version is 1.71 from 2016.
What kind of round-trip latency figures are you seeing in your benchmarks @RME Audio ?
According to the DAWBench low latency performance database....
RME RTL figures. 64 buffer, 44.1
RME HDSPe AIO Pro - 3.946
RME Fireface UFX+ TB - 4.024
Babyface Pro - 4.325
HDSPe AES/ADI8QS - 4.399
Fireface UCX USB - 4.565
Fireface UFX+ USB3 = 4.646
Fireface UCX FW - 5.154
Digiface Dante-Rednet - 5.283
Fireface UFX FW - 5.646
HDSPe AIO - 5.715
Antelope Discrete 8 TB - 3.991
Presonus Quantum - 3.533
Why is there so much variance, and why do the TB or PCI_E units offer lower figures than USB2/3 ???
First of all let me say that these numbers show exactly what we mean. One or two milliseconds in latency make no difference whatsoever in artist performance. Latency measures and performance are heavily influenced by the OS as well as different components used in the computer hardware. We witnessed worse latency performance after OS upgrades due to new driver implementations etc.
@@RMEAudio I have to disagree, although mildly. In most situations where you are direct monitoring, latency is neither here nor there. I'd happily use a 512 or 1024 buffer size in situations where I am just recording audio signals. But if I'm using software instruments inside a DAW that doesn't have its own minimum latency monitoring path, then those 1-2ms differences can really make a big difference. Especially when playing electronic drumkits and capturing midi.
OS definitely has an impact.
Recently I had a Presonus Quantum and an RME UFX-II side-by-side. I noticed no driver stability improvements; that is to say... both performed exactly the same on my AMD 5950X Windows 11 machine. I noticed no sound quality differences, and the UFX-II had an extra 1.5ms latency at the same buffer and sample-rates.
For the price difference, I was expecting more from the UFX-II and honestly? I promptly returned it. I didn't see any benefit other than direct monitoring, which the Quantum doesn't do.
Another option may be the Antelope Audio Discrete 8, which has more pre's and thunderbolt performance. Whilst their USB driver cannot achieve the low latencies their thunderbolt one does, the difference is immaterial to me. All of my machines now have Thunderbolt 3 support, and so far I haven't seen these lower latencies available with anything but Thunderbolt. You say that USB can deliver the same speeds, but real world tests do not show that.
In all other worlds, RME interfaces are excellent.
@@RMEAudio So I have to be honest.... the first time I tried a UFXII I had poor performance. It must have been a computer config issue or graphics card conflict, because my new UFXII is absolutely flawless. Plugged it in, and it is perfect.
In terms of latency I am getting 4ms RTL at 48kHz 64 buffer size... my old Quantum and Antelope Discrete 8 managed 3.2ms over Thunderbolt. So yeah.... you've got me. Customer for life.