Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler - Horn and Wagner Tuba review
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- čas přidán 12. 12. 2022
- Considering this is the primary college book for orchestration, I had to take a look and see if it was accurate about the horn, and since there was a bit about the Wagner Tuba, I checked that out as well. While there are many accurate things here, there's a few not so accurate things as well
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Intro by Marc Papeghin
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Hey Andrew - you left out the part from my video in which I said I didn't agree with everything Adler said - also my extensive coverage of many other orchestration manuals and individual topics on specific instruments and scoring situations. But I'm flattered to be thought of as enough of an authority in this situation to be quoted in a video critique of the book. 🙂 Great specifics about different details, and thoughts from a pro player. We orchestration text writers can only hope to try to continually catch upon with players and occasionally get it right. Keep up the good work.
Hi Thomas, My inclusion of the clips from your and Anne's videos was to show the support this book receives, and the extra line from Anne about the first edition for my line about maybe staying away from all editions. I could have used a clip from your video as well for that or showed your praise of the second edition "that really cemented Adler's reputation as a great writer and teacher" to further prove the praise Adler receives. Both of your videos included disagreements about the book and talk about other orchestration books, but criticisms like the bassoon and oboe being in the same family or Norton not upgrading to the internet age enough or comments regarding Piston's book or other orchestration books are not relevant to the horn/wagner tuba section that I covered here, so there was no reason to include it.
@@AndrewMerideth I came to praise your video, not to burn it. You did some great work here. But just humbly pointing out that my praise of Adler was not unqualified - just so people don't think I'm incautious in my assessments.
@@OrchestrationOnline I apologize and I appreciate the kind words. The short clips were taken very much out of context of the whole video and served a specific purpose. I made sure to list the channel names the videos were from in case anyone wanted to check out other reviews of the book, but I dont believe I used the clips in a way that meant "this is a perfect book with no issues" but rather showcasing two reviews that at least praised it and helped prove it was a college standard
@@AndrewMerideth It's all okay, Andrew. No need to apologise whatsoever.
Fantastic presentation Andrew. Well presented and very well researched. Bravo
So I actually met Samuel Adler when he visited UMKC I think back in 2017(?) Anyway, he gave a lot of great comments on my work. At the end of the group lesson I asked if he could sign my copy of his third edition book, to which he said "$0.50." I told him I didn't have any change on me and he said,"That's okay, bring a quarter to the master class tomorrow. It goes down in value every day." Upon noticing it was the Third Edition he looked at me, pain in his eyes, and said, "This is only the Third Edition." Then spent the next 3 minutes pitching me the 4th edition before finally signing it. I know this has nothing to do with the quality of the orchestration book but it is one of the most memorable interactions I've ever had with a composer.
Also, I find the sections on strings and Woodwinds are pretty solid, if not lacking in the extended techniques department, at least in the Third Edition. I don't know about the Fourth, but it's got correct info and is a nice basis for getting a good foundation for orchestral timbre. Best orchestration book Ive had was every Ravel score I havr
That's really cool! His orchestration book definitely gets better with each edition, unlike most college textbooks that have a new addition every year as a cash grab. I'm glad you had that positive experience with him. I honestly would love to sit down and chat with him about my findings here
Hey fellow UMKC grad here! Cool story.
We don't talk about the section of the book on the organ. It is incredibly deficient.... basically completely ignorant of capabilities/workings of the instrument.
And not a single mention of singers or choral orchestration whatsoever...
24:08 actually the Instrument is called "Tenorhorn" and is very much still played in Germany, Austria and Czech republik and Balkan (instead of Euphoniums or Bariton of the Anglosaxon building technique). It also was the model after which the Wagnertuba was built as Wagner discovered them at Military Bands who still use them today.
I've heard it referred to as both Tenor Tuba and Tenor Horn. Looking at Holst's Planets, where it was most certainly written for a "tenorhorn", but the part says "Tenor Tuba". This aids in the confusing mess and is a reason I avoided talking about it more as I couldn't find any conclusive evidence about that. you'd think we could all get on the same page by now, but apparently not. What you are saying does make sense though. I do remember reading a book that had pictures of what Wagner was inspired by, and there was an instrument close to the modern Tuben design
@@AndrewMerideth If I'm not mistaken, the German "tenorhorn" is the equivalent of a British Bb baritone horn, which is most often used by British brass bands. The German tenorhorn just has a different distinctive shape that the Wagner tuba was based on. It has a smaller bore than a euphonium and has a sound that is almost halfway between a trombone and a euphonium. What the British call the "tenor horn" is what the US calls a Eb Alto Horn, or sometimes just Eb Horn. Sadly, I don't know much about the "tenor tuba" as a separate instrument, besides the fact that Holst called the instrument that in the Planets.
@@ericfalley so an alto horn is called a tenor horn?... Geez, why is there so much confusion? No wonder I couldn't figure it out
@@AndrewMerideth Maybe all this mixed brass nomenclature is why Adler got confused. But he really should have known that a Wagner tuba wasn't the ancestor of the modern tuba.
I thought Tenor Horns were just straight, but apparently they can be curved too...
WOW, every day I learn something new and realize, there is SO MUCH to know! Daunting really! ♥
Great video thanks.
When I asked a question in conducting class about horns and the use of bass clef in horn parts, I was told to go find the Adler. I had never heard of it before but there was absolutely nothing in it about bass clef. I went back to my dorm and pulled out my Forsyth book that I obtained many years before as a teen and wouldn’t you know, it was in there! My professor was most surprised. I never opened the Adler again.
I'm a composer and horn player, I agree with almost everything you've said. Just two things, Euphonium is very different from tenor tuba. Also, it certainly is a matter of experience and context, but I do think that "bells up" does certainly affect the sonority of the group, but that will likely vary wildly according to the space and general acoustic conditions present. I think, generally, in a professional orchestral hall, it's not gonna make that much of a difference, but in my experience playing outside and on tighter spaces, etc, it can give a good boost. There is without a doubt a psychological factor at play here as well though, but to be fair, we can count on it as "making the horn sound louder"... Sure, it doesn't sound louder phisically, but it does affect the experience of the public, so either way, I think there's a bigger case in defense of bells up making the horns "louder" than not doing anything...
I didn't mean for that line about the Euphonium to sound like it's interchangeable with Tenor Tuba (or Tenorhorn as I'm told it's called in Europe) even though wording on the music indicates either instrument as shown. I'm very aware that the two instruments are different as I showed a Tenor Tuba recording of the solo in Mars rather than the typical Euphonium that you see.
As for Bells Up, it's for sure just a visual effect, and within that "effect" is that the audience sees the change in position and ears pay attention to it more making it seem louder. In select halls/venues, I can see a mild boost, but that would be it, but not the norm
I have encountered composers using the + symbol to mean muted instead of stopped. Imagine my confusion …
Great job 👍
📯
How does this compare to Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration? I recently picked up an electronic copy of it and am working through reading it right now.
Korsakov's book only has about 5 pages for the full brass section. Generally speaking it looks good aside from an oddity about stopping. He mentions that trumpets can stop. I've never seen or heard of this, He also says stopped notes are "con sordini" which is wrong. if Con Sordino is written, we use a straight mute. and lastly he says stopped and muted are "similar in quality" which I very much disagree with. Maybe this is why we have seen composers say "con sordino" and also + over the notes because they don't know there is actually a difference
@@AndrewMerideth i think that’s more of a translator’s error tbh
@@natheniel interesting thought. I'll definitely look into that. The same thoughts are repeated in other orchestration books too, I wonder if it's based on this or something else
@@AndrewMerideth There are some people who think composers like Brahms intended physically shorter trumpets where the player would reach to stop the bell: czcams.com/video/fZ2IyoJIM_o/video.html
@@AvGeekW159 whoa this is really cool! While not identical to horn stopping, it's WAY closer than I thought it would be! thanks for sharing!
How does Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration compare to Adler"s?
seems okay aside from muting and stopped horn. further thoughts and discussion are in another thread here in the comments
Would you suggest that Alfred Blatter's orchestration book is a better alternative from a horn playing perspective?
I honestly love that many people have found orchestration books I've never heard of, its great! as for this book, i would say no. generally speaking it's better than the adler, but there are still incorrect information. for example, stopped notes below the staff the hornist will half cover the bell? thats false. he mentions "transposing mute" which i hate that terminology as evidence from this video. hornists cant read high notes in bass clef well so dont write about top space G? strongly dissagree. it makes more sense to write it in treble if it stays above that, but I've seen and written almost an octave above that because of how the line works. the music examples shown are interesting because they show difficult extremes and highlight why they are difficult, which is great, but personal opinion is that they should have shown more "typical" examples
Here in Italy we use the treatise by Alfredo Casella and Virgilio Mortari, which despite being quite old (first edition having being released in 1948) still works very well.
Secret is: every instrument have being discussed with the help of a professional player and teacher of it, and each one of them is fully acknowledged in the foreword to main text.
Interesting! I tried finding a copy to browse the horn section but was unable to find one online or in a local library/school to provide any personal feedback
@@AndrewMerideth I unfortunately don't know if an English translation ever has been made...
@@TenorCantusFirmus One has been made, but reviews state it's not a great translation
@@AndrewMerideth Still might worth at least a passing reading, it's very well-made.
I have an interesting position as both a professional horn player and professional orchestrator, but the bells up bit drives me insane on both sides. The Horn player in me knows that it is exclusively a visual effect, but the orchestrator and me knows that purely the site of the bells changing position and being more visible does make it more audible purely because the audience is paying attention to it more.
I did definitely laugh a bit at the matrix having that. I didn't know that and it is absolutely hilarious.
I have thought about writing an orchestration book specifically about the horn and then branching off into other instruments. It would be a orchestration from the perspective of performer kind of resource. Would you be interested in collaborating on it?
I found a few other film scores with bells up. That makes no sense. As for collaboration on an orchestration thing, sure!
As a hornplayer and recording engineer I disagree with a thought that it sounds the same.
It of course depends on how you do it in what hall it is done etc. But it can make quite some audible effect.
@@urednik1 Anytime I've heard it, I can't hear a difference at all. I'd love to hear/see examples proving me wrong, though. might require a live setting and specific hall which kinda proves my point
@@AndrewMerideth it is pre physics.
Our first and main spund bounce is while sitting always from below (mostly from the base), while when our bells go properly up it takes much longer time to make the first wave bounce. Horn characterisics develop after bouncing and not directly as do trumpets and trombones. That is why horns sound odd when recorded at the bell. You are right on psycho-acoustics though. Although they are just a part of the image.
So, which book for orchestration would you recommend instead?
Right now I'm not entirely sure. Looking through the comments here you'll see folks asking about different books and I provide my quick comments about them, some being better than others. I think in the end it would be best to read through multiple and then study scores in how those instruments are used. It's also best to double check with players of each instrument about certain findings. For example, some books say "cuivre" means "stopped horn" which is false, or that stopped horn and muted are the same thing, which again is false (I have videos about muting and stopped horn explaining those). I'm also not sure how things are for different instruments in those other books, so while the horn section might be okay, the flute section might be horrible
@@AndrewMerideth thanks for the long answer! I think i'll follow your advice and go through multiple books.
Always thought that Vince DeRosa played that iconic solo in the Rockford Files theme. Never heard it was Wagner tuba. Is that true?!
It's definitely a Wagner Tuba. William Melton did a massive deep dive into the history of the Wagner Tuba which is my source for most of the historical information about the instrument. In the article by Melton published in the May 2004 issue of the Horn Call is my source for this, but that section at 23:40 is 3 Tuben, played by Vincent DeRosa, Arthur Maebe, and David Duke.
6:46 I actually know of a work that makes use of the 23rd partial (written G6 / g'''), which is Mozart's Twelve Pieces for Two Horns, KV 487. There's been a long-lasting controversy about what instruments these duets have been written for and you'll still find a lot of outdated and uninformed statements out there (and many editions for other instruments). However, by now, it is very clear that Mozart intended these duets for horns (as you can read in "NMA Neue Mozart Ausgabe, Serie VIII Kammermusik", pp. IXff). Don't know if there is an English translation, but it is very interesting. :)
Interesting. I've heard of those but never looked into it to confirm if they were actually meant for horn. and it's a partial higher too, it's the 24th (all octaves are doubled partials, so G3 is the 3rd partial, G4 is the 6th, G5 is the 12th, so G6 is the 24th)
@@AndrewMerideth Ah yes, you're right, I mistranslated that. There's a German term that does not count the fundamental frequency/first partial, not sure if "23rd overtone" would have fit in this case. Thanks for clarifying that! :)
@@defense9989 oh! i've heard to them referred to that way, so yeah 23rd overtone would be correct. personally i'm not a fan of that way as the math/ratios becomes useless, but it at least makes some sense
So here's what I understand about "French" horn from years ago (sorry I can't cite the source): note that it is only in English that the term "French" is added. According to some sources, as native English music gave over to continental influences in the 18th century, there were preferences or at least some designation for "French" style horns over "German" style horns, the French version being the "cor de chasse" , a more bugle-like instrument in sound with a more typically cylindrical bore and smaller flared bell. The German horn on the other hand was actually closer to the modern horn. Ironically, it was German composers like Handel who dominated the English music scene and for some reason, the designation "French horn" stuck as it must have been a preferred sound in some music circles. The accuracy of the designation in English hands and in the minds of the 18th century is one for debate. The comic Anna Russell used to incorporate a whole bit about how the "French" horn wasn't French but German, while the "English" horn wasn't a horn at all and was in fact French. In short, there is no need to use the term "French" horn.
I have a whole script written about the "French" designation that includes this idea among others as well as explaining why calling it "Horn" is perfectly understandable, even in English. Haven't decided on making that video yet though. The English Horn from my understanding is Polish and was called the Anglish Horn (angeled horn or some saying Angel's horn) and the english misheard it as English Horn, but I wont claim that as fact as that is not my area of expertise.
Funny side note, I had completely forgotten Handel was born in Germany before spending most of his career in London, so I was a bit confused for a second when you called him a German composer
What is a tubin? Do you mean those passages were played on a Tuba, or a Wagner tuba? Or is it the plural, is Tuba a german word or something?
Tuben is the word used for the plural of Wagner Tuba. There's a weird history behind that. I've thought about making a short going through it
@@AndrewMerideth ok thank you! It's common for German plurals to end in -en
The reason I assume it's faulty is that it was mostly written in the 60's. There have been VERY few books since then, and those that have usually are updates or have sources from that time period.
Interesting thoughts. I hadn't thought of it and it makes sense
@Andrew Merideth though a lot of it would still be knowledge horns would've known then, so I don't know how excusable it is. Either way, I believe most of the natural horn section was more of a history lesson than an orchestration lesson. I don't think he anticipated budding composers to write for natural horns.
About the wagner tuba, who plays it, if not horns? Are they tubists?
Also, I believe this is one of two recently written orchestration books.
czcams.com/video/MDk9NhgTvxI/video.html
The other would be Professional Orchestration, by Peter... something. I can't recall it exactly, but it had a workbook that was written by Joseph Wagner.
@@hipepleful only horn players play the tuben, but Adler treated the Wagner Tuba and the bass tuba as the same, but still got things wrong. it was weird, so idk what he was going for there. and you're right, the natural horn stuff was more of a history lesson, however, the 16th partial on a C alto crook still crops up from time to time (basically, oh they can play that note in C, so now I just transpose it to F (up a 5th). I'll certainly check out this book and see what's there. i doubt I'll make a video unless there's something new to talk about, but i am curious at the very least
@Andrew Merideth that's to my understanding of why he put a range chart. I believe it is actually a bit constrained from what I've heard. Written f#2 or 3 (one just under bass clef) to c6. He hints that pedal tones up to d2 or 3 (below bass clef again) are technically possible, but not recommended.
Is there a good reference work for understanding the horn and how to write for it?
I have not found one yet, and welcome all recommendations to look into. I have in the works videos about different topics, like muting that would help. right now my recommendation is talk to horn players and ask them who they think writes the best for modern horns. you'll get a range of composers from Bruckner to Strauss to Mahler and see why they like them the most. maybe even ask why horn players aren't a fan of others like Tchaik (never ending F#s and Gs) from there study those famous works like their symphonies/tone poems and see what the tendencies are. I recently joined a discord with a handful of composers and students. I may ask for general questions about writing for the horn and put together a video answering them
I wrote a horn octet a while ago that my performers really enjoyed - the best sources are probably forum posts by horn players and asking your horn friends. I found it best to ask what the performers would enjoy rather than consulting a source on things the horn can generally do.
To my ears, the solo in Mars on the Karajan/Vienna Phil recording sounds much more like a Wagner Tuba than a Euphonium.
Good find! I found another recording of Vienna where that solo sounded different as well but couldnt confirm the instrument so I decided to leave it off
what is partial?
hard to explain in text, but the link below is a quick video thats pretty solid explanation and then i'll add in further stuff
czcams.com/video/OATjHiOuc70/video.htmlsi=ZxbDq2OQAKR7Prgr
for winds and brass, the length of the instrument determines the fundamental sounding pitch, and we can adjust our air to make other notes in the harmonic series sound, and these notes going up the harmonic series are the partials. hopefully that helps explain it
The section on Trumpet isn't great either. The "Band" section is an absolute mess. I don't want to place all the blame on Adler, though, because the many, many editors this book has could have done a much better job catching this stuff. It's a useful book, but it's definitely not a perfect book.
The only path to a good orchestration is to have actual players contribute and edit each instrument’s section. Competent players know the capabilities and limitations of their instrument as well as the many variations in the instrument over time and in contemporary usage.
Kent Kennan Orchestration for life!!!
Taking a quick look at the 6th edition it seems pretty accurate, even using some of the same examples I do!
@@AndrewMerideth it's also a very concise and dense text.....Adler meanders on and on, resulting in one unglodly brick of a book, IMO lol
I think it's called French Horn because the french invented the first horn with valves.
No, Stölzel was the first to put a valve on a horn around 1814 and he was german. The double piston was the first majorly successful valve from the 1820s, still seen on Vienna Horns today. The Francois Perinet (French) valve came in I believe in the late 1830s. There is a belief that it was horns with the Perinet piston valve that were called "French Horns", but we don't use those types of horns anymore
@@AndrewMerideth
Well, we can ask then which one got introduced to Britain first, was it the german one or the french one? Maybe the British got the French version first thus kept the naming accordingly to that chronology.
As far as I know, the French call it "Harmony Horn" (Cors d'Harmonie) so they don't claim it's theirs anyway.
This reminds me of the English Horn wind; and the speculations and theories about why is it called so. The French say that it's been altered due to some mispelling from 'cors angélique' (angelical horn) to "cors anglais" (english horn).
@@HamzaBaqoushi I remember reading something somewhere that it was called the Engelshorn in German (Angel's Horn) and the brits heard "English Horn" and ran with it. this lines up with the Wagnertube, and they heard TubA, and ran with it, but that's also why the instrument is called Wagner Tuba, but plural is Tuben. (Yes I'm skipping the Tenor Tuba part of that)
As for the Horn, the French called it many names, mainly Chromatique (Saint-Saens) and con pistons (Dukas) if it wasn't just "Cor" or "Corno". I can't think of anyone calling it the Harmony Horn though. When coming to the UK, they had the German style and French Style (Rotors and single Pistons). I guess they mostly played the French style for a while and thus that name stuck? Pictures of Aubrey and Dennis Brain show some evidence to this
Just put the damn bells up and quit whining.
Great video nonetheless, thanks!
How is disproving the book and providing facts about bells up whining? closest to whining I get is saying that it makes the instrument harder to play but that's just stating a fact
Petition for renaming the Wagner Tuba the “Jerry Goldsmith Tuba” ➡️❤
Andrew: What is your email address?
Please provide.
may I ask why you need my email?