WordPress Gutenberg versus Page Builders - The Kevin Geary Interview
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2023
- In this interview I chat to Kevin Geary about the WordPress Gutenberg Project and the future of Page Builders like Bricks and Elementor.
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I commend you sir for having the courage to engage with your ideological counterpart in an open discussion! You are my go-to for Gutenberg; and Kevin is my go-to for non-native; seeing you both together discussing these things is the very embodiment of what makes WP such a vibrant community.
Wow thanks James - lovely words 🙏
Kevin speaks a great deal of sense. I have moved away from using Gutenberg for pages (still use it for posts!) to using Bricks. Kevin creates both great products and informative tutorials, etc. 👍
I appreciate the support! 🎉
Same. 👍 It is FAR more efficient to use the Bricks Builder to get cleanly coded sites that allow you to use CSS when you want to, than it is with native WP or any other page builder. PERIOD.
As an aspiring developer who writes code, I just thought I'd give perhaps what the perspective of developers WordPress or not. It is fantastic that page builders are helping designers to become more involved in the website process. However, we have to remember that the page builders are generating HTML, CSS, Javascript and not an admin user interface for adding content. When you look at the countless attempts at mobile app builders they just not production ready apps with features. You have to code them. As you said in the video, DIY is ok if you're not dependent on traffic or can't afford a properly developed site such as a charity or new business.
I love that I can use a page builder when a small client may want to edit their site themselves but I'd rather just write the CSS that is always the same, rather than have to click through all the Elementor settings just to change margin or padding and deal with bugs with Elementor that make it seem I did something wrong.
24:46 Kevin is spot on here, I'm used to have complete control over my markup and css and trying to figure out block builders to see if I can use them for quite a complex project has been very frustrating.
This is a really interesting and insightful interview with Kevin and Jamie.
I love this, different views coming together for a discussion and both giving heaps of value.
Thanks J 🙏
i use Kadence Builder Pro and i have to be honest now. i've ended up re-building out of frustration with updating websites. i've ended up re-buildign 5 websites in another builder because i just can't get on with the gutenberg. it is just easier to jump ship and use a proper builder like bricks.
Excellent discussion Jamie. Kevin knows his stuff and I think his vision of the WordPress journey is going to be pretty accurate.
Thanks Richard - it’s going to be an interesting few years for sure
This was a very informative session about where Gutenberg stands and its future vs page builders. Thanks👍
Thanks Ron
Very interesting discussion. Thank you Jamie. I currently (some months into my WP journey now) use the Breakdance, page builder, which I like, but I always look at where Gutenberg is heading. I think if WordPress started a "university" modeled after what Webflow is offering - and properly promoting it, that could give it a good boost.
My main issue overall is: With hand coding a site (having started with Dreamweaver ages ago) I know where I am and what I can do and where I need to learn more. With WP it's always: What is there right out of the box and where do I need to custom code? But then, custom coding inside WP you have to watch out for this and for that. A two edged sword.
Breakdance is nice for newbie who want to make woocommerce shop Tom?
Great and interesting interview Jamie
Very interesting discussion.
Thanks for another great video. As a follower of you both I've been waiting for this one since you teased it a couple of weeks ago. User Experience - identify your personnas and their needs, then design a workflow to deliver it. Basic web design principles that Kevin understands extremely well but that WP don't seem to have taken on board. If WP is too become a competitive web design tool, rather than a blogging platform, then they need to focus on UX. I like Kevin's comment about dog years - things are moving too fast to wait actual years for this. They need to step up and start delivering better user experiences. If Mike can do this with Ollie in a few weeks, why can't they?
Thanks for watching Grant 🙏👍 and great comment
Well put! There are so many parties, like Canva, moving fast. Combine that with the power of AI and WordPress might be or will be in serious trouble. The more important it is for webbuilders to stay well informed about new trends in this area. Coz you don't want to be stuck with 60 sites build with a tool that has lost significance, as you can already see with agencies that have used Elementor, Divi a.o.
Just looking at managing menus demonstrates the lack of a cohesive interface with FSE. The customizer made it ridiculously easy to create, manage and edit menus. FSE turns it into a confusing, multi-step process with nested commands located in areas you wouldn't logically think to look. And the front end editing presentation is, to be honest, poor if not non-existent. I'm highly motivated to learn how to leverage native Wordpress FSE block building, but sometimes I wonder, as Kevin Geary mentioned, do these WP developers interface with people who actually build websites? And more importantly, can they really pull this off?
both of you are awesome!!!
Thank you 🙏 😀
Very interesting interview
“Making the case, but then building the environment properly, are two different things…”
100%
Really good content!
Great discussion raising some interesting points. As an agency with a large number of sites, making a move to a new 'page/site builder platform' is a big decision. I am impressed with how far Wordpress has come with FCE and Gutenburg but as Kevin says, if they do not start focusing on the different needs of beginner and pro users they risk alienating both.
Thanks Christian 👍
Fantastic video. Most informative discussion I have found on current state of Wordpress. As a freelance designer with sites built mostly in Divi, I dived into block theme development and it quite quickly felt like a brick wall and I've struggled to find any concrete answers on which of the myriad approaches there seem to be to building sites in Wordpress I should use. A recent client asked for a Webflow site and as someone who used to hand code html and css sites I was blown by how pure a visualizarion of code the interface felt compared to anything I've used in Wordpress where I've always felt everything feels quite opaque. It is somehow reassuring to hear that maybe there isn't a clear answer to the question of what's the best approach right now.
I agree but the issue with Webflow is it is a hosted solution. I like managing my own server and controlling the sites.
Interesting interview. I believe Kevin changed his mind after seeing the new dashboard design mockups. Just imagine Kevin using Gutenberg!
If people can build scalable, maintainable sites without a huge hassle then I’m all for it. The problem with most page builders and the current block editor is a complete lack of proper scalability and maintainability.
Great video, based on the latest WCUS, WP core team is pushing hard on FSE, and there are many great block themes like Spectra and others. I still prefer the Page Builder route like Elementor as it gives me more freedom and has a bigger ecosystem of addons + support etc.
Good interview 👍🏻
The main problem with Gutenberg is that it was built with the same mindset as the first version of WordPress. They designed it on the fly and wrote the code as they went.
This worked initially because they were building something that never existed and in the beginning their user base was zero.
I think they tried to do the same thing with Gutenberg and are realizing it doesn't work so well when their user base is roughly 40% of today's entire web.
Awesome insights! The current FSE is awkward for casual and professional users. I hope they improve soon.
I got a lot out of this. And has now hit the subscribe button, because I want more :-)
Great to have you here 👍
I have now resolved to using Block editor. If i need a complex block, i build it with Acf.
Great to hear 👍
The slow rate at which Gutenberg and the major page builders advance and even have endless flaws (ahem Elementor w ‘critical error’ white page site crashes) is letting the mon$ters Shopify and Squarespace (with their large advertising budgets vs WordPress who has always none) pull ahead which always grrrr
Now with Wix coming up w AI demos which look amazing as much as I’ve been embracing Ai through 2023 I’m on the verge of having help me develop what I would create the best of all worlds
I agree with Kevin concerning building a product to solve a problem. ACSS is proof whether you agree or not.
9:54 When artificial intelligence reaches an advanced level, it will easily support professionals as well. Clients will not need to know the "specialized language". Just asking AI, "I want to have a website," will be enough. AI will immediately respond, "Do you want it to be popular?" The client will confirm, "Yes." Then AI will advise, "I will help you achieve this. We will accomplish it together." Even familiarity with terms like SEO or meta descriptions will not be necessary - communication will be at a level understandable to everyone. The question remains whether artificial intelligence will reach such a level of development.
I find Gutenberg incredibly frustrating and unintuitive to use.
I posted a similar comment, but it looks like I hurt someone's feelings. 😂😂
Yeah it is terrible. I want to like it.
@@dougscott188 thats why I like kadence blocks. Is like finishing the gutternberg idea
@@EasyManiacits more easy to use?
Something I really wish was discussed here was more deeply the problem of CSS and where it lives in relationship to the CMS. Today, I believe the vision of WP is that most styling should be controlled by and live in the WordPress theme. However, we see people like Kevin and his userbase pushing for styling to be controlled entirely in the editor. Now I could be wrong here, as I have not tried every single one of these new "pro" page builder tools, but I believe they are storing all of their styling in the database. That's how Gutenberg is currently doing it with some of their block-level styling options. I think this is a problem. We are losing the single source of truth for styles and making that responsibility extremely complex. Is the theme styling the blocks, or are the blocks styling themselves? If the blocks are styling themselves, and everything is made out of blocks (FSE), well, I think you know where I am going with this. Do themes go away? If so, how do we efficiently re-theme a site if the blocks are all separately controlling their styling? Custom Properties and theme.json I think can only handle the job to a certain degree.
Fantastic points 👍
@jamiewp Would love to get your thoughts on this conversation now that 6.4 and the 2024 theme have been released. Native is feeling pretty good to me right now.
Yup I agree, 2024 and 6.4 make core WordPress so much nicer and more powerful
I tried using WP blocks in the Twenty Twenty Four theme and the fact that there's no way to change simple things like with the content width at different view widths makes it useless to me. I installed a css editing plugin which helped with some things but it doesn't fix the fundamental issue mentioned. I guess I'm back to Elementor until WP enables the ability to make separate changes based on mobile, tablet and desktop widths.
What specifically are you trying to change ? Content widths will adapt automatically and 2024 uses fluid typography and spacing.
Example, when I assign a width of 65% to my header text, there's no way to change that percentage to 100% for mobile view. So, the header becomes stacked into the 65% width. I noticed no options to adjust any settings for different view ports so ended up getting Elementor which I have been using for years. In my limited opinion based on trying WP block builder for a day, WP has a long way to go before they even come close to being a useful page builder. Maybe I'm missing something but that's my experience.
Do you have a link to the website so i can take a look@@braddavis5802
I switched to building the site in Elementor. Not using the block editor.
Beaver Builder was rather big at that time. Elementor was competing with them first. BB is still a great builder. It was also, I think, first one intruding theme builder.
Wordpress focuses on the end users, the non coders. However; when they want something different than what is offered you’re going to need to know code 🤯
Great video. But Kevin is important to understand. Gutenberg developers have developed the core and functionality for other developers. THE BASIS IS ADDED TO GUTTENBERG.
Kevin has questions like other developers have for react! Let's compare React, which has nothing, and Angular, which has everything.
I have used the AI tools. They lack what I’m looking for. I just use GPT on another screen.
As a site builder who cut his teeth in Drupal 7, Drupal 8 and above has become technically more difficult, but at least Drupal for the most part has identified its market as larger business, government, academic, and enterprise sites. The DIY market is not Drupal's focus.
Yup I believe Drupal market share has dropped to about 1.2% now :(
I prefer Gutenberg, 'cause I'm working with my phone😊
I disagree with Kevin's opinion on this matter. He seems to have a narrow and shallow perspective on the role and purpose of Gutenberg, FSE and Block themes in WordPress. These features are not designed to make WordPress accessible to everyone or to change its core strengths. They are meant to address the problems and limitations of page builders and other plugins that create a steep learning curve, code bloat and design inconsistencies. In the long run, they will enable a more streamlined and coherent building process based on design systems.
Plugin "agencies" should be more proactive and innovative in supporting this transition, instead of relying on outdated and inefficient products. But the market will eventually catch up with them and they will have to adapt or perish. Also, don't forget there are more and more external page builders or no-code solutions that can be powered by the WP API...
Page builder do have a learning curve - but so does Gutenberg - I find it confusing and frustrating - nothing is named how it should be, where are sections, gap, divs etc - if you know html then page builders like bricks are easier to pick up and work with. CSS classes are a lot easier to manage and not hidden from view. Tried Gutenberg many times and always come away annoyed
If Gutenberg was as intuitive as Elementor, it might have grown on me. But I personally find it a bit clunky. Also I am not too convinced on the speed beneifts that are being hyped on Gutenberg over Elementor. To me this is a bit like the Windows vs Mac debate. Most people may find Mac's more intuitive and user friendly, yet I am a Windows person. And so no matter how this develops, both page builders and block builders will likely co-exist in order to be able to satisfy both kinds of users.
Idk why Gutenberg is so unintuitive when they have Bricks as an example. It's simple enough for non-professionals to poke around on, while throwing little to no hurdles for pro devs to accomplish pretty much anything.
Half of Kevin’s answers were considerably irrelevant to the questions.
And the comparison of AI to phone camera is just not a valid one.
Most people make this mistake, but AI is *not* another revolution in tools. AI’s point and where it’s actually going is to become the person operating the tools
When we wanna make predictions, we gotta factor in the areas that will change with time, instead of assuming what exists right now will just get better.
AI won’t just “get smarter”, it will shift in its prompt engineering even more! Making it understand what we mean a lot differently and more accurately.
thanks for such a considered reply :)
@@jamiewp ofc. Thank you for your efforts and the videos!
Nobody can possibly have a unique perspective, as we’ve been talking about every single possibility for decades.
it was very late, I practically wrote this with my eyes closed lol
Let’s start with a simple question:
What is the unique purpose of AI? Compared to a typical laptop, software or robot? Is it that it works faster? Better? Easier?
Cuz we can just keep creating better and faster laptops.
As we know, AI is capable of much more complex tasks like cognitive, recognition, and reasoning ones. Mainly, it’s that AI can *learn*. How? Ideally (and very very soon) on its own! It can recognize patterns and surroundings, react, and learn.
In one word, AI is meant to be a superhuman. Don’t look at ChatGPT and think it’s going to forever stay on a webpage. We have AI robots who can move their legs and hands and operate tools very easily.
The goal is for AI to become self-sufficient and actually procreate and update and fix itself!
This will no doubt come true 20x sooner than most expect, because progress happens *exponentially*, something that our brain is not capable of seeing in. We think in linear terms. Again, many of us already know these things, but we still think of AI’s future based on what we’ve seen with things like PCs and smarphones.
You can already clearly see it. The things people expect to happen in 5-10 years tend to happen within 7-12 months. Even back when ChatGPT came out, people thought it’d take 5-10 years to get to where we actually are today!
To have the same amount of progress in AI that we’ve had since ChatGPT and GPT-3.5, it’d now take less than a single year from now.
We’re eventually going to have a world where a lot of things are changing significantly every single day. But we’re not made to adapt in such fast rates to big changes. Which means we’ll either have to intentionally slow down our progress, or use most of it for the elite and powerful corporations and governments, instead of making them public.
You know, people are usually very easy to scare. People freak out over every new thing. I totally understand that. It’s even a little exhausting how we do that every-time.
But we actually cannot expect too much accuracy when we predict the future based on our past. Just because people freaked out over tech revolutions before and it all turned out fine, doesn’t mean that it’s going to keep happening all over again.
My personal (perhaps uneducated) opinion is that this time, people are actually not afraid *enough* !
So far, the downsides of our tech devices have been relatively manageable.
But what if a device has 20x better upside? That’d also mean 20x worse downsides, right?
But at a certain point, the consequences of the downsides become permanent! That’s not the case with upsides. Meaning, once something passes a particular point, its downside will suddenly way outweigh its pros.
For instance, if it can reach every human through the internet, communicate with their devices and software - which have stored and controlled all the personal data and preferences - it could bring an immense level of damage to an insane percentage of the population and at a pretty fast pace!
It doesn’t matter how useful it is anymore, if it starts annihilating us.
And trust me, it’s going to get VERY useful very soon.
We haven’t experienced such a thing before. We haven’t had an invention that’s nearly as capable as how they’ll be within just a year or 2 from now.
When people say “everything can be used for bad”, they’re not factoring in that it really does matter HOW bad.
In other words, what’s the worst thing that we can expect AI could cause within the next 5-10 years?
Because it WILL be caused!
And you could have the best AI security and defense team possible (cuz, yea. Obv we’ll also have great uses of it). If the hacker’s attack destroys you, it will not matter a single bit.
The thing with attacks is that they’re bound to happen, and they’re bound to find a way to break in. Security tries to prevent, but a lot of times ends up patching up and fixing.
Except, the “bad guys” often have a lot more determination. With AI at their disposal, it is, indeed, very fuckin scary.
All I hear is blablabla this guy is just mad that he does not know how to set up a modern dev environment and how Node.js works. I looked at his "Bricks" thing and it just screamed, "I HATE THAT PHP IS losing THE WAR". He does not even understand the Block Editor. That's why he cannot see the power. They have all already lost. The Block-Editor is very flexible and good and that's why you should learn and use it. Giving people like him a platform will just confuse beginners and, in the worst case, make them use old Web tech because someone was mad.
Lolz.
Try building a deep, complex dynamic site with the block editor and you will quickly be pulling your hair out. I'm pretty sure Kevin and other developers building sites in the real world don't give a hoot about the particular tech stack or language a dev environment is built on. They are not concerned with 'the PHP Vs JS war' that you reference and are not even thinking about it in those terms. They just want a capable and flexible tool, with great UX and UI, that can get the job done quickly and efficiently and which outputs code which is clean, lean and performant. Right now that's Bricks (in the Wordpress world at least).
@@stevebaker2896 I as a React Developer can only say the Block Editor is amazing and there is nothing I can't build with it, I don't know why it does not work for you but you can do anything with the Block Editor, I'm not interested in you Page Builder wars because they are compared to other language wars completely nonsense to me and everyone using other page builders inside Wordpress just does not care about clean code and performance.
You are throwing in assumptions about Kevin here. You are lacking the same focus/education that you are accusing Kevin of.
@@Gearyco STOP CONFUSING BEGINNERS