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C64 vs Atari ST / Music Comparison
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Recently, I posted a Atari ST Video here and got a reply from someone saying, that he "hates the St Soundchip" and "The C64 SID chip was better". I had a C64 myself and know of course that the SID Chip was indeed great. But Is the difference really that big as much people think? Here a direct comparison between 15 game tunes each in c64 and Atari ST Version. Judge yourself!
00:00 Speedbal C64
00:31 Speedball Atari ST
01:02 Platoon C64
01:43 Platoon Atari ST
02:23 Thundercats C64
03:11 Thundercats Atari ST
03:59 IK+ C64
04:39 IK+ Atari ST
05:23 Xenon C64
06:18 Xenon Atari ST
07:13 Gianna Sisters C64
08:02 Gianna Sisters Atari ST
08:52 Chambers of Shaolin C64
10:32 Chambers of Shaolin Atari ST
12:12 R-Type C64
12:51 R-Type Atari ST
13:13 Defender of the Crown C64
14:25 Defender of the Crown Atari ST
15:26 Spherical C64
16:34 Spherical Atari ST
17:42 Cybernoid2 C64
18:43 Cybernoid2 Atari ST
19:45 Stormlord C64
21:51 Stormlord Atari ST
23:59 Barbarian C64
25:50 Barbarian Atari ST
27:41 Grand Monster Slam C64
29:04 Grand Monster Slam Atari ST
30:27 Beyond the Ice Palace C64
31:50 Beyond the Ice Palace Atari ST
pre-emptive tl:dr;
nice video, thanks!
I think it's widely accepted by most ST fans (and non-fans) that the ST had a dated soundchip when it was released - even around the time there was criticism about it and Sam Tramiel said they had a sound cartridge in development (or so I read in an early ST User magazine) to improve things (it never happened, surprisingly). However, what musicians managed to do with the YM2149 as things progressed is just amazing; buzz-tone, digi-drums, sid-sound etc.
The sid chip was designed to sound good (and it does) but the YM (basic though it was) has been pushed beyond what it should have been made to sound like, so thanks to all the ST musicians who have, and those who continue, to make great music. Also kudos to the C64 guys.
Taken into consideration that C64 was released in 1982 and Atari ST in 1985, C64 is 8-bit and Atari ST is 16-bit, not to mention memory specs, the sole fact that sound chips from both machines _can_ be compared - the winner is the C64. Maybe some soundtracks sound better on Atari ST, especially drums, but still, Atari should have done better for ST model.
the ST sound chip was released back in 1978 while the first SID was released 4-5 years later.
Thats even worse for Atari - they could have taken a better chip for sound.
@@olgaszklarska5773 unlike C64 or Amiga, the ST was not a gaming computer, I think the YM chip was plenty.
@@madigorfkgoogle9349 then its even worse for Atari ST :) computer for no use whatsoever
@@olgaszklarska5773 nope, actually it can do more then Amiga and C64 combined...it can even play games, except it was not made with games in mind like Amiga (former gaming console).
My now deceased uncle got a 1040STf as a bonusish computer from work when the ST came to Sweden in -87 or so, I never thought the sound bothered me, it was a rather impressive computer coming from a Sinclair Spectrum. He later gave me the STf for christmas, since then I've never stopped liking the ST. I have 3 or 4 1040 STf, 2 520 STe and a Falcon 030 now. Two Amigas are out in the shed waiting for me to get the interest to fix them. All STs and the Falcon have original Caps in them, all working as well.
Always loved the cleaner sound of the ST! Also always loved Spherical. Nice one, as it’s not often mentioned. 👍
but C64 can have really "rich sound" although I also prefer in many cases "clean" ST sound. E.g. Stormlord is fantastic on C64!
I was well versed in the SID chip back in the day. Know next to nothing of the ST sound chip. But the major differences seems to be that the ST only has square/pulse and noise waveforms and little to no VCF. It sounds brighter and harsher to my ears and the SID sounds are more varied with the available waveforms there. However the VCA attack and decay on the ST also sounds a bit better in a majority of the songs.
This is a very fair summary. Although these days you programmers get SID like sounds from the ST as well. I prefer the pure ST sounds.
The C64 soundchip can do everything the ST sound chip can, and even more. So hardware wise, the C64 is better.
Besides that, some of the songs have been better programmed on the ST than the C64. But then again, that is only an opinion.
@@micaelhildenborg5712 can a C64 make sounds like a YM2149?
@@zboy303 The chip in the atari ST is specifically named YM2149F, and it can reach higher frequencies than the SID chip, although these higher frequencies are not really useful in music. In general, the SID chip have all the functions the YM2149F have, but due to differences in how the hardware makes use of them, there may be combinations that do not sound exactly the same from one chip to another. The SID chip have more functions than the YM4129F do, like: more waveforms, ring modulation and filters.
Goes to show you the C64 was an amazing machine for its specs, time of release and price.
Never owned the Atari ST, but I always though it had a more cozy/homely sound, for some reason. Loved the OST for Lemmings(ST) and was completely clueless to why people said they hated the music for that game. Then I heard the Amiga version later in life and understood why. XD
C64 chip was ahead of it's time. The ST chip was behind in time. The original SID chip was immense, the C64 invented computer soundtracks because before that most games on older computers and consoles were just 'ditties'.
Listening to the ST AY chip was basically listening to a speccy 128 or Amstrad.
Awesome comparison of the game
soundtracks 🎵🎶 on the
Commodore 64 and Atari ST.
Plus, i bought GRAND MONSTER SLAM for my Commodore 64 as a tape version this evening from a finnish 🇫🇮 website 😺👍.
Also, i still have THUNDERCATS for
my Commodore 64 (Encore) and
Amiga 500 (Ten Star Pack).
😺👍🕹️
Thank you very much! Btw. I love the music of Grand Monster Slam a lot and also think the game was superb designed with a very creative idea.
@@worldofretrogaming2248
I agree with you 😺👍.
And if i ever get a chance to draw my own medieval ⚔️🗡️🛡️🗝️📜 furry 😺🐰🦊🦝🐺 fantasy comic arts 🖋️🖊️✏️🖍️,
i will definitely use the soundtrack 🎵🎶 of
GRAND MONSTER SLAM (Amiga) as a background music 🎵🎶 😺👍.
Thank you for making this video. I'm sure it took a lot of effort. I found the ST to have much better sound as it was clear and not as distorted. The C64 may have had a wider range of sounds to choose from but it really was scratchy and unpleasant. I also remember that back in the day we argued that the Atari 800XL has 4 voices to the Commodore 3 voices. More Polyphony made for more harmony and less bouncing tracks to create the fuller sound.
Thank you. Thats a very interesting point of view! I knewed about the 4 voices of the Atari 800XL. This is indeed great, because you could use 3 voices for music and one for sfx. Wished the ST also had this, because this "1 music voice stops when sound fx is played" really sucked...
Yeah, completely agree, I think that’s the point: the ST sounds clearer and not distorted, so it sounds better, despite the technical aspects. Well, taking in account that I grew up with the ST music and it sounds so familiar to me.
The sound from Xenon is the best compared to any other machine even Amiga, there is something to it, it a perfect tune for atari's chip
My thought so. On C64 it is good but it seems that C64 "struggle" to keep with music...
But since Xenon is originally developed for Atari ST it is no wonder... :)
The outdated sound chip was a minor problem. The major was lack of good software and very high tuning of the chip (2 MHz)
Nice comparison. I used to think the SID chip sounded better because it is more like a real analogue synthesizer, but now I think it depends on the musical content. The SID can sound too present, too buzzy at times. On the other hand, the ST's chip has a more limited sound palette.
The ST has a bad reputation for sound, because at the time it was technically way behind the Amiga, but nowadays its sound has a greater nostalgia power, whereas the Amiga soundtracks often sound dated and boring.
When ST's HW gets more involved into playing a chiptune (soundchip+timer chip), the results are quite unexpected. One of more recent examples: czcams.com/video/xoy7GdSStWM/video.html
I love both sound chips. But SID is a tiny but closer to my heart.
Sound fair!
Very nice video, interesting concept. Two comments about it though : it lacks the name of the composer or musician of each version (there are different in most of the cases, unless it is Hubbard or Whittaker musics), and in the case of Chambers of Shaolin, the ST version is the original score. Great work anyway.
Both sound great ❤
bit weird how a newer machine kinda sounds worse off in most of these comparisons with only a few exceptions like Speedball being on par or marginally better, more weird that most of these tunes are clearly just ports of the c64 tunes rather than being their own thing using what the atari-st could manage if they tried to make the most of it.
I expected more from a machine that came years after the C64. I mean, one of my favorites (Cybernoid 2) sounds cheap in ST.
Guess it's a matter of taste, since Cybernoid 2 on ST was my childhoods favorite game tune. It sounded so futuristic with those bright sounds. I never understood the C64 music, it sounded so muffled.
Always loved ST Platoon music. Same as the 128k Spectrum version as well from memory.
Some of Atari's song sounds the same like Amstrad version. :)
That´s because both computers use the (almost) same soundchip.
And it's the same soundchip in Sega's Master System
Most sound better on the ST, cleaner sound and the drums are just so much more clearer compared to the C64 that sounds like someone bursting bubble gum balloons. Rtype soundtrack on the ST is a particular favourite for me.
Waiting for 64 vs Amiga (if is not out there already)
The st versions aren't bad at all but imho the sid versions will always be my favourites❤. It's good we all have different opinions (and we are all right with our own opinions) cos if we all thought the same life would be pretty boring right?
The sound development kits used for ST game creation resulted in sounds being reused and also resulted in lazy design. The waveform selections offered by three SID chip also resulted in lazy design but with easier to achieve attack/sustain/decay effects. The SID attack/sustain/decay effects sound unnatural and dissonant by today's standards but in the 80s - and compared to the Atari 8 bit computers - had a wow factor. It's a shame that Commodore didn't invest more time and money in a faster CPU for the Commodore 64.
I think ST wins most of these, but wow the C64 version of Cybernoid 2 is amazing! First time hearing that version. Regarding the 'scratchy' sound of the C64 music - didn't different versions of the C64 have different sound filters, so the tunes could sound different? Also - not sure what's been used here - but emulation can sound worse than the original machine?
I prefer the c64 music of Barbarian, Cybernoid2, IK+ and R-Type. But Xenon, Platoon, Chambers of Shaolin and Speedball and Spherical sound better in the ST version in my opinion.
I like the SID in C64
For me better than ST
@@mortimore4030 or you don't have ears...😁
these machines are not of the same generation and power but the SID marked its era and still has many fades
What does SID mean please?
When your comparing, try comparing the ST to the Amiga . There's zero comparison at all. The Amiga smashed the St put of the water. Easily.
In the past a viewer of one of my videos mentioned that he hates ST Music and C64 music would be so much better (in short). Because of I had a different opinion, I made this video. About Amiga/ST comparison. No doubt that the Amiga had the way better sound capabilities. But otherwise, only a few Amiga owners know what the ST and later the STE was really capable to do. And it is really not a big surprise if you consider how much the Amiga (500) cost back in the days and the time between the release of the ST line and the Amiga. Another thing, much people don´t understand is, that the ST was more a competior to Apple Computers at this time, not to the C64 and not to the Amiga (which has not existed at this time). Thats one reason why the ST is called "Jackintosh" often. The St was not just a gaming computer in the first place like C64 and Amiga have been.
The STE had some awesome music in its games when it's capabilities were used.
ST is clear winner in here....but I think your C64 has something disturbing in its voice (kinda sick trembling) which i cant remember from times when i was listening to it from cassettes all day long :)
I'm always going to prefer the ST's YM2149. C64 SID sounds like a mosquito and is extremely overrated.
POKEY trumps them all, in my opinion. I get bored from C64 buzzing filters. POKEY is in your face and 4 channels make big difference with rhythm parts.
Off Topic, since the video is about the Atari ST which has no POKEY. All the sound processors have their own qualities. Rob Hubbard said POKEY was a pain in the ass to handle, being constantly out of tune. Bass sounds aren't that interesting either on this one.
As an Atari guy... usually the problem is with people getting too comfortable with the stuff they already know (it goes for all of these machines). Check the SID tune in Amanita demo.
Yeah it was me that commented on the last video about hating the ST sound chip. Now don't get me wrong I had BOTH the C64 and the Atari ST growing up and was a massive fan of both machines. Great memories from both. However I still stick with my original view after listening to this video that the ST sound chip was horrible given that it was supposed to be a generational leap over the 8 bit C64 and competing with the Amiga. It just sounds cheap and tinny and limited. Ripped straight from an Amstrad CPC or Spec 128. Very poor for a 16 bit machine and clearly a cost cutting measure. I could easily listen to a demo video of SID tunes with its deep base and wave effects. ST demos give me a headache.
I can agree about that the sid chip was in some (many) ways advanced to the ST soundchip. Many C64 music sounds also for me better. But I don´t see that the difference is that big. I like to listen to C64 music but also love many ST Tracks. There are so much great ST Demos with good Music and also games like Chambers of Shaolin, Wings of Death, Lethal Xcess, Rings of Medusa and many others. And don´t forget that the St was also able to play digisound and Modfiles. I also don´t think that the ST has been made to be a (serious) competitor for the Amiga. It was more a Competitor for Apple computers and old Ms-Dos Machines of that era, but much cheaper in price. Amiga came out later and also cost quite a few bucks more. Here I would suggest to compare the Amiga Sound capabilities with the STE.. If you are interested check out here:
czcams.com/video/bat3BKozswo/video.htmlsi=KSlHnw1INl25w2uW
However, I have to accept that maybe some ears are a bit more sensitive than others :D Thank you for your honest comments and inspiration for me to do this video.
@@worldofretrogaming2248 The ST was definitely a competitor to the Amiga. You had magazines dedicated to that fact - ST/Amiga format for instance where each game was compared on both machines. Games advertised, coded and released on Amiga that were just a port from the ST version. Regardless of the ST's original design and intention Apple never came into the equation once both the ST June 1985 and Amiga 500 Jan 1987 were in the mass market. Regardless - excellent video sir and keep up the good work. I agree everyone has their favourites. That is what makes the retro scene so great.
The Atari ST is shit. Uses the same AY chip by most 8 bit computers of the day. At least they could have 6 or 9 channels by incorporating 2 or 3 of the AY chips. It was just no match for the C64 (music) and certainly nowhere near it's arch rival Amiga which comes out at a strong baseline of 32 colors from 4096 palletes, 4 channels of DMA music in stereo, hardware blitter and sprites etc. The ST was basically a 16bit Sinclair Spectrum 128k...everything is done by the CPU with an AY sound chipfor sound. Later ST improves on it but was too late as the market was too small for developers to care to take advantage of the new hardware.
Harsh criticism coming from a Spectrum fan 😄
@@renaudg Haha. I grew up with a Speccy+. Always wanted a C64 and later an Amiga. Now i have 2 NEXT NGOs, a real C64, a C64 Maxi and looking for a real Amiga soon. Although i am having a great time with a Raspberry Pi400 running Pimga 4.0 now. But i speak the truth. I call a Spade, a Spade. Not going to sugar coat it. The ST use the same sound chip in a gazillion 8 bit micros which are inferior massively. No but's nor if's.
Nobody I knew had an Atari ST so have never been around a real one, but I've heard so much about it being 'great for music'...and probably from the aspect of the midi controller it is, but it sounds shockingly bad. Especially since it is really a competitor to Amiga and not the C64. ... I'm surprised and had expected it to be better, but it's just painful to listen to botched versions of favorites from my childhood.
ST sounds like cheap toy and thats all.
Why?
@@mortimore4030 🤣🤣
It sounded great being run out of my hi-fi’s stereo speakers. Crisp, clear thumping beats. Obviously, if you’re using toy speakers it will sound like a cheap toy and that’s all.