Repairing a 1982 Williams JOUST Arcade Game - Why Is the Screen Upside Down?????
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- čas přidán 6. 01. 2020
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Ron the more I watch your videos the more I doubt that there are people "much much much" more talented than you. We all stand on the backs of the giants, and you sir are growing up. Well done.
There's plenty of people better at it than me, just read the comments :)
Man, I love that game. I remember when it came out. I had a really nice Joust in my collection, and a Robotron. Awesome video, brought back lots of memories of fixing these machines.
Thanks for watching Dave, see you on the next video!
The fact that you are diagnosing these issues live on camera, and showing the thought process is really amazing to me. I have pre diagnose the issue and pretend to troubleshoot every video I put out. Thank you for sharing your fantastic diagnostic work!!!
You know how it is, when you figure out the problem it's so fun, I try to share in the fun with the viewers if I can, it's hard to do though like you mentioned... thanks for watching Tecnolock, we appreciate it!
Piggy-backing a chip is one of the slickest tricks I've seen in a long time.
I can't stop watching these repair videos!!
Glad you enjoy them!
I believe it's because they're using 8 bits to represent the color space and subdividing it in to 3 bits, 3 bits and 2 bits, (3 + 3 + 2 == 8). This gives you 2^3 (8) values for green and red but only 4 for blue for a total of 256 colors. This ends up being acceptable because our eyes are far more sensitive to green and red than they are to blue light.
Somebody else mentioned that Trey, that makes perfect sense, thank you. I don't know enough about programming to understand how the bits are used so it didn't appear to me but I think you're right :)
Thanks! I love your videos. They're usually a nostalgia blast. Good work finding that pesky failed shift register. Watching you play Joust reminded me of playing Killer Queen in Chicago. Look it up.
applied computer science student here, Trey Dempsey is 100% right.
@@LyonsArcade Only thing to know here is that bits are (unless you have really exotic hardware) always handled in groups of 8...the famous "byte". Just like the cents you put into those machines are put into groups of 25. Using 9 bits for color would be the same as having one game cost 26 cents. Possible, but what an effort!
Beautiful cabinet. One of my favorite games. Anything Williams.
Yeah they really did a number on the design of their artwork, looks fantastic!
This was my absolute favorite arcade game. If I was going to buy an arcade game... This would be the one!
Yeah it's very well made in my opinion. Everything from the visuals to the idea to the sounds....
Beautiful diagnostic technique! Efficient and elegant!
Thank you for the nice comments Doug, I appreciate that!
another game I played a lot back in the 80s when I was younger. I loved playing it.
One of my all time favorites. If it I had just been shuffled off the Gauntlet machine I'd play Joust.
You know the REALLY interesting thing? Joust shouldn't even have a cocktail mode! When you play with 2 players, you don't take turns-- you play at the same time, with the same screen orientation. The cocktail versions were table tops (instead of upright cabinets) with the players facing each other. The screen would change orientation based on whose turn it was. But in Joust, both players play at the same time!
So that's an awesome troubleshooting trick... but why is it even there to begin with?? lol
You are the first person to notice that :) I thought about that shortly after I finished the video... as you may be aware the boardset for Joust is the same as some of the other Williams games, so all that circuitry on this particular title was completely redundant and unused.
it was probably replaced a long time ago with a cocktail system interior.
Joe's Classic Video Games Back in the day, producing circuit boards were extremely expensive, so they designed motherboard/daughterboard combos. The motherboard handled the video output and the daughterboard the game logic. Instead of designing and manufacturing a monolithic board to handle everything, they made generic motherboards to handle the basics and made the daughterboards to handle the individual game specific logic. Daughterboards tended to be much smaller and thus less expensive even in lower volumes.
I believe that the reason that joust has a cocktail mode is that the monitor is oriented 180° to accommodate the position of the chassis vs. how the monitor is set up in an upright. it has nothing to do with the screen flipping 180° between player turns (as was already pointed out that both players play at the same time.
Something else that is cool for me is that unless someone else has done that same test before, that’s the first time the B chips have ever been used in the cabinet’s nearly 40 year history. They have just been sitting there idly waiting for their chance to do what they were made to do.
Just found this channel last week. You, sir, are doing Gods work for my/our generation. These classic arcade games were what we pumped countless quarters into when pong, the Atari 2600, and the Bally’s system were the only home gaming systems available. Rooms in the mall, full of these cabinet style games, called ‘Arcades’ are sadly a thing of the past. Unless your go to Dave & Busters or a Chuck E. Cheese, you likely won’t find these diamonds and classics of days gone by. Kudos to those who are involved in the revival of the arcade and it’s games and major kudos to those like you who maintain these aging gems. Joust was always one of my favorites. Keep these videos coming.
More videos coming soon Raycefan, see you on the next one!
Glad to see people are still fixing old arcade games there was a shop by me but of course they closed it kills me when people say plugged up instead of plugged in a toilet gets plugged up anyways thumbs up for the video
Toilets plug down power plugs up to the pole above the building :)
Joe's Classic Video Games never heard anyone say my 🚽 is plugged down lol do you say cut it on or turn it on
Joust is one of my top 10 favorite old school arcade games. Jousting with flying ostriches and dinosaurs and getting eggs. I wonder what the intial reaction was from the guy who brought this idea to his boss. I enjoy these fix it videos, I'm amazed by your technical talent and your ability to figure out schematics and such. Great and educational video and hopefully you'll do a similar fix it video with an original Punchout arcade game. Keep these awesome videos coming!
We may do a punchout in the future, I have a gameboard here and a cabinet I just need to put it all together. The gameboard already works though, but maybe it'll break, LOL
@@LyonsArcade I just hope that maybe becomes a yes. Of course you all have to put "top priorities" for your business on the frontburner. It's all good regardless. I also like this channel because your sense of humor and personality is conveyed during the videos.
It’s so good to see these classic games/machine still working ...Cheers!
Thanks for watching Chris, we're saving all of them 1 at a time :)
I LOVE watching classic arcade games! Better than anything on TV these days.
Thank you for watching Eric!
I enjoyed watching you play just Ron pure arcade goodness
Thanks David we appreciate you hanging out with us!
Take a drink every time he says "cocktail mode" pun intended.
I love a good drinking game, but I only drink Root Beer.
Bummer they replaced the original Power Supply. Nice job working logically through the schematics. Wow man, interesting technique overlapping the chip, love it. Good stuff, be well.
-Mitch
I agree, the crazy thing is we fixed the original power supply last time (it must have failed again, or at least they thought it did). Those Williams Power supplies are very reliable in my opinion. Thanks for watching Mitch, we'll see you next time!
I looked at the thumbnail and thought “What game is ‘2snor’”? 😄
I got you to click :)
You taught me something in a chill way, thank you. Subbed.
Nice, thanks for watching Shawn and we'll see you on the next video!
Your videos are like an arcade school!!! Super educational & I really enjoy watching them :)
Thanks Chinasaur, we appreciate you watching :)
Anazing artwork. You are doing a great service to society. I enjoyed watching the game play too.
Nice slam dunk on the troubleshooting...Cheers Jeff
Thank you Jeff, this one made a nice clear cut video I was happy with that :)
Joust is one of my all time favorite arcade games even though I was pretty bad at it. I really like the way you analyzed the problem and narrowed it down by switching to cabinet mode. I give you my hand. 👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks Gabz!
Ahh one of my favorite games. So awesome you figured out what the problem was. Watching these videos is always interesting to me. Granted I never repaired a arcade cabinet, just it's fun to see how all of the games work.
Thank you for watching, we appreciate it!
Keep the Videos coming, the Member Berries are potent.
Another new one tomorrow :)
Used to love the sounds on the Williams machines - Joust, Defender and Robotron
Yeah they had the best sound!
Hey, he's gonna sit by you! Another one rides the bus! Weird Al, a personal hero!
We loved playing this back in the day. We also discovered that you can kill the pterodactyl by shoving your weapon right down his throat (1000 pts?). When certain levels begin, you can stand on a platform, and he'll fly right into it. Doesn't always work though...
Great installment Ron, many thanks!
the "doesn't always work" part is the part that scares me :) Such a ferocious enemy :) Thanks again for watching RodMan we appreciate it!
I remember the greatest fun my friends and I had with a table top version at a bar in Berkeley. We loved this place and it's atmosphere.
Thank you for watching Space Cookies!
One time I opened up my Joust and found 3 cigarette butts inside the cabinet from 1983.
Did you save them? :)
Joe's Classic Video Games : I did not. However my Joust still has an ashtray screwed onto it from back when it was in the arcade in 83 to 86. Can’t have those hot tips ruining the game controls!
well done guys...you busted that 1 very quickly !!! :) x thank you for taking the time to film this for us xx
Thanks for watching Hope, we appreciate it!
@@LyonsArcade a pleasure as always x
Another job well done! Awesome!!!! Always get hyped when I see you got a new vid up LOL =)
Thanks again man!
Found this channel last night, great video's so subbed :)
Thanks RDJ, we appreciate you watching!
“You shall prove your worth by facing me in a joust!”
My Second favorite game - great repair job. I love watching your videos as I've said many times.. I'd love to find a fixer-upper Joust.
Thanks for watching Bob, we appreciate it!
I never would have thought of piggybacking chips in a million years to test them. Thank you.
Old-school trick, it doesn't always work though... as you can imagine if the fault in the chip is a short, when you piggyback it the short is still there.... if the fault though has blown open it'll fix it....
@@LyonsArcade
Understood completely. And I imagine while this mostly works with logic chips, it wouldn't work the same with an analog chip. Yes?
Keeping the classic gaming experience alive!
Trying to :)
I fix pc and laptop mobos. I'm so glad I wasn't doing that back when these games were out. The people that designed those games were geniuses. Not to take away from them fitting these games on a few thousand lines of code now.
Had I been into fixing those games back then I would be a billionaire today. I'm loving your videos as I'm able to look back at the past in a different perspective. Subbed
Thanks Joseph, we appreciate you coming along for the ride! See you on the next video man!
I have been trying to find a multicade that has this game. So far no luck. I’ve always liked this one.
They made a "19 in 1" board awhile back that had it on it... it was a little chinese board but played all the Williams games pretty good. Thank you for watching Bill!
Please please! post back here if you find it. I like the Jamma builds but the games aren't often well curated.
I noticed when you had it in cocktail mode the demo ostrich disappears about halfway up the screen. At about 12:22. Nice fix!
Whoa! I didn't notice that. Wonder if it still has that fault?
i played that same game in the arcades in the 1980s and defender 1 and 2 it was fun the old games are the best it takes skill to beat them.
Definitely! I've seen some folks play Defender that really knew what they were doing... incredibly tough game.
@@LyonsArcade in the 1980s i played it so much i had ships lined up all the way across the screen .my high score i estemated to be around 34 million but every time i got to 1 million the score would go back to zero .defender 2 was even better you could warp .i remember playing over 8 hours or more off one quater. my friend would take over if i needed a rest and a bathroom break.it wore me out but it was so much fun to play back then i loved this game
I'm glad I have working knowledge of what you were doing here, otherwise it would have been totally confusing, Liked vid, Have a Great day!!!
I try to make it simple to follow because that's kind of how I think it through in my head.... thanks for watching, we'll see you on the next video Rome!
@@LyonsArcade Good Up, I'll be sure to catch your next vid
This was one of my favorites!
yes you saved the day for that one! i hope the rest of the chips stay good
Thanks man we appreciate you watching :)
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you Dewayne for watching!
I misdiagnosed the problem... I thought the cabinet was upside down.
That would have been too easy :)
I figured it was the Australian version...
That’s solid troubleshooting techniques right there
We try to make it step by step so my brain can follow it :) Thanks again Bill!
One of the things that impressed me the most, from mid 1982, going well into 1983, was the incredible jump up into the chip and coding technology of these arcade games. Especially how incredibly well they put out the high quality sound and full color graphic screen; even colored text! I never really saw a computer display that before then. I always wanted to see the huge logic board of these games, and wonder what each chip did. It was like living Tron in real life!
I was very small then so I didn't experience it but yeah a lot of folks playing modern games don't know about a time when the arcade games were so much more advanced than the home systems. They could do incredible things and the only way to play them was in the arcades!
@@LyonsArcade, exactly! I was 11, 12, 13 from 1982-84. All I knew back then was the Atari 2600 and the Apple 2E at school. When I did make it to the huge arcade places, I was blown away each time with the advancements in the logic board chips and coding. Getting the very most that you could, from such little RAM and Video space. I usually stuck with the Pac Man, Mrs. Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Pole Position games other similar games. Even better was the New Wave Music that went with the Arcade games back then.
Any chance I could buy an official Mrs. Pac Man Arcade game from you, real cheap? My wife loved that game back then.
Just brilliant. You down play this fix, but I think it is excellent. Logical trouble shooting paired with schematic understanding.
Boom!
Top game too.
Thanks Neil, we appreciate you watching. See you on the next fix!
Interesting Battery Mod. This is bringing back memories!
That's what we're going for :)
@@LyonsArcade You know, on board AA Batteries were not the brightest idea. I mean, a little foreknowledge of the fact that they leak and cause all kind of corrosion issues. And then the Battery Clip that Williams used would not hold up to that corrosion and fall apart. FYI, I have been in the Gig since 1989. Lots of fun. SALUTES
Yeah I think it came down to they didn't care if it lasted. They wanted people to throw them away after a year and buy another one!
Minge's Printing Company? You definitely could not use that name in the UK! :D
There's a local gentleman who owns that company, everytime he comes by he keeps me stocked up with notepads :)
@@xyrzmxyzptlk1186 Yes you're on the right track, I was curious to know if it had the same meaning in the U.S. as the U.K. Sounds like some kind of old school vajazzle shop.
@@xyrzmxyzptlk1186 I'm guessing we've found another British word, google it but please be careful where you do it. :)
Is his wife named Fanny? 😁
😂 Minge printing company. 😂
I loved this game!
Me too!
Good job troubleshooting!
Thanks Evil J We appreciate it... and by the way, you're not so bad. Maybe "immoral" but I wouldn't call you evil :) Thanks man see you next time
Nice diagnosis!
Thanks Brian, I was glad to figure it out on tape :)
I look forward to more. Retro games inspired me 40 years ago. I still love them. Good luck!
More coming soon!
Joe (Ron?) always makes this stuff look easy. :)
I delete all the hard stuff!
Awesome video! :D
Thanks Tim, we appreciate you watching!
For giggles you can get a cheap infer red thermometer from harbor freight for example to scan component a if your looking for hot spots on electrical parts , just a suggestion.
That's a good idea!
Great video again Joe! Can u teach me your knowledge of how to fix arcades
Yes I can, just keep watching :)
👌Well done!
Thanks Silly Sausage, we appreciate you always watching :)
It was common practice for service techs that are called out to fix a problem and then quote more than the customer is willing to pay to rotate the yoke 180 deg. When the customer refuses.
I'd never heard of that, that's pretty crazy!
@@LyonsArcade yeah, some folks realized that to troubleshoot the problem the tech actually had to fix it and started telling their pals and all of a sudden tech weren't getting paid and were out the cost of the parts used. Slimeball customers.
*looks at the video's thumbnail*
Me: Ahh, yes. The classic arcade game: 2snor
I did that on purpose :) Thank you for watching Lierofox!
@@LyonsArcade I got a little giggle out of it, even if I did arrive to this video pretty late. Thanks for the uploads!
Hi there another great vid thank you for sharing your knowledge. What logic probe do you use as I would like to get one. All the ones Im seeing seem to only offer led flashing lights but yours has sounds as well. Cheers
Tarus to be honest I don't know which model it is, the label is missing. It's a cheap one, $15 or so and I bought it on ebay 10 years ago!
awsome channel joe
Thanks for watching Lee, we'll see you on the next video!
👏👏👏👏👏Cool video.
Thanks Bob Robert! See you on the next one!
I would have just left it in cocktail mode and physically flipped the screen over.
It might have been mirrored as well. I believe in the days, a mirror was used and you were looking at that.
@@forevercomputing Have you ever seen a cocktail arcade table? They didn't use mirrors in Cocktail mode. The screen just flipped for the player on either side of the table.
Big brain gamer move!
@@robertatkinson6864 There were some cabinets that used a reflector for the screen, and had the display inside facing upwards. Maybe a different thing, but I've seen those before too.
its funny how someone so very very smart can like playing video games
Nothing wrong with playing video games :)
When you were 12 years old you didn’t think twice but as an adult you think, those dudes at Williams must have been on shrooms when they came up with this one.
Forcing that into cocktail mode is brilliant and your troubleshooting skills to find the problem chip are great as always. And that piggy backing chip trick is awesome.
Question though - couldn't you have just permanently jumpered it into cocktail mode and flipped the monitor over? Or does the monitor only go in one way?
For someone who might not have the skills you do at chip replacement that could be a solution.
If I had all the quarters back I pumped into that game (and Robotron) I could buy a yacht.
Or an Ostrich!
After watching your videos I feel entertained and educated. This is a good thing. A sunny island within a sea of CZcams dumbness. Thanks, man.
Thank you Lascheque, that's nice of you to say :)
I'm guessing you toggle pin 1 of that 74257 to select the opposite bank to place it in cocktail mode?
The arcade version looks way better then the home version from atari, very cool once again 👍👍👍
Up until about Playstation 1, all the arcade stuff was better :)
A+!
Good fix
Thanks James!
The 74166 are shift registers. They are often used to make a data bus of x bits into a serial signal.
The red lines are vertical. So i think there are some bit regiters in one chip ar permanet hi or low and are shifted over to the serial signal.
This was a really cool game.
Yeah it's got a real cool vibe to it, very creative.
It should be noted that Joust was the inspiration behind Balloon Fight.
Both cool games :)
RIP Mr Iwata
OSTRICHES! love this game
I know, who in the world would even think of that? Crazy game!
a popular arcade for a while in early 80s was PopEye.
Yes that was a great game Chris! We've got a video of one here on our channel somewhere...
Spent many a quarter on joust, Popeyes, and robotron. All awesome games.
I initially guessed deflection coils plugged in the wrong way round... interesting that it's for a "not needed" cocktail mode.
Good guess, it was a trick question... it's upside down because I did it on purpose :)
*there was this restaurant that had a original midway ms pac-man arcade cabnet and the screen would be normal on the insert coin screen but when you start a game it plays upside down*
Im currently restoring an old pole position 1 and 2 arcade cabinet i ordered parts to repair the power supply units as they are both fried is there a conversion to a newer hap power supply ?
They don't make a new power supply for it because it had an amp on the original Atari power supply. The originals are pretty reliable though once they're repaired.
The lines made it look like an NES cartridge of the game that has dirty contacts
Yeah it did look just like that! Sometimes on the NES you can push the cartridge over slightly while it's on and the lines go away :)
Why only 2 blue resistors? Human eyes aren't as sensitive to blue light. You only have 8 bits to split between 3 colors, so blue gets the short end. Thats my answer.
You're probably right! That makes a lot of sense.
That’s how video compression works, too. It often has less bandwidth for blue, especially on older formats.
That boot pattern is called a “rug test” and if no VRAM errors are found, it’s often a memory addressing problem, because even if the game does a “data write pattern test”, it will report “no problems” because the CPU doesn’t know its writing/accessing the same memory locations instead of writing the entire RAM. The same is not true for the EPROMS because the CRC will be incorrect.
It’s not a good idea to “piggyback” chips because if one is functioning correctly and the other is not, you can potentially short the output transistors in the IC. This only applies to “totem pole” outputs, not open collector.
When the screen was flipped upside down, in a pinch, you can always reverse the 4 wires on the CRT’s deflection yoke (swap X and swap Y) to flip it right side up and leave it that way hehehe (poor man’s fix)
Thanks for the info, Rick!
Sweet troubleshooting hack piggybacking a chip
Thank you for watching, Kendall!
I think the reason for only 2 blue lines is maybe that the computer uses an 8-bit bus and this is a 256 color palette game.
First of all, thank you for sharing your work; I’m sure it’s difficult through a camera. If your interested, I have an asteroids main pcb that has doing me in; would you be up to doing a troubleshoot video on it? Of course T&M would be covered. Thoughts? Thanks again!!
Hi David! Thank you for watching, we appreciate it... unfortunately at the moment we have so much back log that we can't take on any more repairs... what is yours doing?
Joe's Classic Video Games when I first got it , the initial screen came up but would reset as soon as the asteroids began to render in attract mode. I checked all voltages and they were good on the main board. I inspected the board for bad solder and loose parts, broken pins and such (looked good) and cleaned a couple of the chips that seemed to have crud between the pins. After that I tried to run again, and now I get the spot killer light and the player 1 and 2 buttons light up continuously.(no blinking) and no game sounds. And no response in test mode.
I am thinking the vector chip is possible, but that is programmed (I believe) but I don’t know the process of reprogramming, so I am reluctant to pull that in fear of damaging it if it isn’t the root cause. Feels like I’m going backwards on this animal. Thank you for listening, and offering guidance as you have time. Email me if it’s easier at Path2ground @gmail.com thanks again!!!
Go into service mode and see if it is set to Cocktail table mode. t is possible that this setting could also be a dip switch. If it is, change it to upright cabinet mode. If it is already in upright mode, there could be some wires reversed in the monitor. It is also possible someone mounted the monitor upside down.
You did not watch before commenting and now you look like an idiot
JOES CLASSIC VIDEO GAME, what was the Shift register used for? what the shift register shifting the data buss data of the RAM chip data or the ROM chips data?
Because it looks like there was a lot of different shift register chips tied to the data buss and you just piggyback one of the shift registers out of the others.
I played this when I was 10 in 1982
Very cool!
Good job ron doesnt it have dip switches to force it into cocktail mode
It doesn't unfortunately. The thing is too, cocktail mode only flips the screen upside down while the second player is active, so if you DID switch it into cocktail mode, you'd have to play a game and see how it looks while the second player is up.
The reason it has 3 red, 3 green, and 2 blue is because it operates on an 8 bit chip. Blue is the coolest of colors, so it uses black (or the absence of color) as the third "blue".
That makes sense! I love your user name, lol
@@LyonsArcade Thanks! I was going to do youtube for a while, but I was too lazy to put out regular content :P
Please set up shop in Florida luv u guys
Presumably both sets of Shift Registers are constantly running with the final chip deciding on which input it will take . So to test the logic could you not just compare the output or one chip against its pair ?
I think that would work, yes. Good thinking!
Went into cocktail mode. Looks like you put it into cocktail mode.
I was bored once and played pterry challenge mode. I waited until pterry came and went pterry hunting
And so, another vidgame is saved; thanks to... THE CLASSIC GAME JOE!
Thanks Chris!
Why only 3 red 3 green 2 blue.. Simple 8bits per byte so with only 8 bits if 3 bits per colour 9 bits total hence we have to drop some colours and blue gets short changed