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I wish Haltech or Motec, Link, Holley etc would come out with a standalone ABS unit. It seems traction control is becoming pretty common with standalone ECU integrations. Would be nice to have the same control over the braking system.
There's a huge amount of liability associated with anything related to braking which at a guess would make it very unlikely for any of the ECU manufacturers to jump onboard and offer ABS units.
I’ve thought about this too, but isn’t there a lot of liability too with the e-throttle? But that is pretty common with aftermarket ECUs. Is it maybe because if an e-throttle gets stuck you can shut off the vehicle, but if an ABS gives out, there isn’t much to do? Love the content and conversation, keep up!
@Andrew fair question, I don't really have the answer but my thoughts are that for us, the braking system is tested and signed off before it goes onto the road. Even if you haven't modified the brakes, that is part of the certification process. I don't believe they have any tests for throttle control beyond just driving it, but also I am unsure if there is any actual legal precedence to even worry about that or if companies are just overly cautious. That said, most major ECU manufacturers now do offer DBW support and have done for quite some time. Same vein but completely different, individually wrapped fruit in some countries was done as supermarkets claimed food laws said it was necessary. No food laws actually said that, and no one had actually gotten in trouble for not doing it, yet it was widely accepted in more than one country as the norm - Taz.
@JDM not sure that really flies anymore given what is happening with the EPA and emissions in the US for parts that were labelled as 'offroad only' still getting companies in trouble. Remember, we're never personally responsible for our own personal actions, it's always someone else's fault these days and in this case it is easier to police a few 1000 performance part companies than it is millions of individuals - Taz.
It's worth a quick note (because no one seems to be a fan of personal responsibility these days) if you do this, you need to make sure what you are doing is correct and legal for your location. As we state, we have already talked to our local governing body since this is going to be a road-legal vehicle which they will test before signing off. We don't know your rules, we are doing what we want to do with our own project for us and are not recommending you do exactly the same. Andre also clearly states this is not a direct alternative for a motorsport-specific setup, they are very different and come with different price tags and capabilities. I doubt anyone keen to do something like this would have ever been considering a motorsport-specific unit anyway to be honest, but just in case you heard differently to what Andre stated, here it is again. Also if you run with scissors and fall only to find them embedded in your favourite left leg, that is not the scissor company's fault, your shoe company's fault or whatever you tripped over fault requires a lawsuit, that's on you cuz. Be a good human - Taz 👨🏻 TL:DR - Use your own brain that's what it's there for.
So, long story short. I'm also restomoding a high hp street Starlet. Got a set of 4 pot caliper pair. Had a convo yesterday with a friend about installing an ABS system. And there you guys come to the rescue. I love you 😆
In your next abs video, you should definitely get very thorough footage and information about integrating wheel speed sensors and reluctors into the car
I previously looked at ABS on Crustida, so I started down the rabbit hole of what Toyota has used since the 90s to roughly the 2010s. TLDR version, the software language of the Toyota system makes it next to impossible to transfer over and so many issues with the systems itself (just ask any Aurion owner who has the CEL from the ABS fault) make it a fruitless exercise. So I just went with the 355mm BBK and we'll hope for the best. 😎👍
The MK60 is common failure module in BMW and VW Golf - the internal pressure sensor frequently fails, the internal pin connectors are a interferance fit to the board which can become unreliable with age and vibrations.
The Yaw sensor (actually it's a sensor cluster with lat. long. and yaw sensors, often part of the airbag system and not always a DSC system part) should not be needed for basic ABS and TCS brake intervention on a 2WD car, 4wd Cars need a longitudinal accleration sensor to help with the reference speed due to all 4 wheels also influenced by the drive train as well as brakes . The lateral and yaw components are needed for the stability control ( ESC , DSC) part of the software and the calibration of that is much more vehicle dependent than base TCS and in my view shouldn't be attempted unless one has the right development tools and can run all the necessary vehicle tests on various friction surfaces as is done in the OE world. I would be really surprised if the NZ homologation authorities would entertain that. Even base ABS and TCS function has some element of vehicle dependent adaption and if the retrofitted vehicle is too different to the OE car the system is taken from - brake sizing, suspension behaviour, you can get undesirable effects from very rough ABS intervention to poor stopping distance to cooked brakes in traction control to unstable behaviour on split mue surfaces. The ABS units also have a feature called electronic brake force distribution which replaces the old load , G or brake pressure dependent brake force proportioning valves on older cars and this can also lead to poor rear brake utilization if there is too much difference between the OE vehicle and the retro fitted one . I don't see that a 2WD BMW car software is going to cut it in an old school 4WD. Better to start with a system from a more similar car. EBD will also mess with the mastercylinder balance on track/race cars using twin master cylinder set ups on a balance bar.
Excellent response. I have limited understanding of the systems but have read enough to understand the basic theory of operation & the swapping of a system to a different application worries me greatly. The early ABS systems were in many circumstances more of a hinderance than a help & having a poorly calibrated modern system with additional functionality running (or falesafes due to missing inputs/errors) is quite a concerning proposition, especially when you consider the system has power of veto over the brakes! I guess it's one of those things which is ok until it isn't....and then it's a really bad day out for all concerned!
Nice work Andre 👌 Not something I'd thought about, but I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to run an engine in a car with an aftermarket ecu, but might be hampered by a factory vehicle abs system that needs the factory ecu. This might be a way to get around the issue 👍
Great content as always! I too am in the process of using this brake setup on my MR2 AW11. I'd actually be very keen to see the integrations of the wheel speed outputs for traction control strategies.
@Eric-uy4tx I had the parts, custom harness and everything needed, spare the brake lines, just over the $2k mark. You can source the parts yourself and save, but I found value in getting everything in one go.
I would love to do an overland build but I'm worried about stuffing my family into an old vehicle like this for safety. I wish there were standalone airbag systems that would be perfect for a big box of a car/truck that you could hide systems like this
Modern airbag systems work so well because the design for them starts with the structure of the vehicle itself. I'm not a chassis engineer but that seems like quite a challenge. Life is full of risks though at the end of the day and your diet is probably more likely to kill you. I say that as an owner and driver of an old-ish Nissan Patrol 😂 - Taz.
Will probably be a few months away but I'm sure Andre will post an update once tested too. I just made a playlist to try keep the FJ40 stuff together, make sure you follow it if you are keen to keep an eye out for more specifically on this in the future 😎 - Taz.
Since this uses a hydraulic pressure sensor for both circuits (front and rear), is there any knowledge on how it would behave with uneven brakebalance, both mechanical balancing bar and by diff. main brake cylinder sizes?
We will get into a bit more detail on that as things progress. Nothing has happened since this update. I'm not sure of Andres plans on that front, but I know it is something the likes of KTM etc are pretty incolved with these days in the way of motorcycle ABS which they seem to be having good results with - Taz.
Please keep us updated on this project, I too want to use this MK60 unit in my old Honda on a haltech elite,, but I fear it may need reprogramming and not sure how to approach it
My 90's live axle autox/hpde car has a single master cylinder. How important is a dual cylinder for the mk60? Can the sensors be installed elsewhere? Oem offered TCS, so I can install the rear axles that have the exterior reluctor rings. What model of active sensor did you use to pickup the signal?
Sooo programming will be critical for setting up a system that is practical and consistent. Question I have is what software is going to be used and can it factor in bigger diameter rear drive wheels with smaller diameter from wheels with faster rotation speed but possibly lower traction limits?
Hi guys. Trying to find one of these mk60 units. But I did find the company that sells them new and with harness and flashed to suit for $3300 US. I do like te diy approach so can you hurry up and finish yours to see if it works lol
Did the testing for this ever get anywhere? I’m curious whether the “generic” E46 tuning you’d find if you picked this up at a junkyard combined with a properly sized master cylinder and a reasonable brake bias would get you 20% of the way to an OE system, or more like 90% of the way there. I live in Canada, where preventing lockup in the summer on the track vs preventing lockup in traffic on ice in the winter will lead to drastic differences in which wheels will get picked on by an OE system (since ideal brake bias is heavily dependent on available traction). I wonder if, by also manually adjusting front/rear brake bias by season or by application, we could hand-hold an unflashed system like this into good performance over a wide range of applications
okay so what software are we looking at to tune this? or is this just a mapped unit and we are taking the BMW algorithm and just going with that? is this just made by BOSCH for bmw? or is this manufactured by someone else?
We aren't intending to map this ourselves. There are specialists like 3dmmotorsport.com who offer this as a service. The MK60 isn't a Bosch unit but is made by Teves/Continental who also manufacture a professional motorsport version that is a competitor to the Bosch Motorsport M5 ABS unit - Andre
@@hpa101 great supplemental info! I have been looking st a Bosch unit, as I'm in the USA and don't know anyone that can do it. But it's something I'll look into! Thanks!
Might be a silly question but can the wheel speed sensor for an ABS system like this also be used for traction control in something like a Haltech 2500 ECU?
I'm new into hard tuning, but I'm wondering why would you need standalone ABS. Is it always a thing, when upgrading brakes to aftermarket, or is it more to that? And what about OEM ABS system? For example I got S13 which I'm building up from scracth - would I be needing standalone ABS when installing bigger brakes too?
I think this is aimed at cars that never had abs, or modern cars that are that heavily modified that the abs no longer works because of integration issues.
As long as you keep the brake balance close to OE the original S13 system will in principal work as intended but "bigger" brakes ( a much misused and misunderstood term) can cause harsh and less than ideal ABS etc. , activation as the brakes will experience slower torque reduction than expected when the ABS system reduces pressure and bigger torque increases than the system expects when it wants to increase brake pressure. The system is of course closed loop and will try to correct in the next control cycles , but the way the system "drives" may feel significanlty different to stock and ESC if fitted will likely feel "twitchier" due to too large initial corner interventions to correct yaw angle of the car. Mess around with the front rear balance and it will only get worse. Mess around with the suspension geometry too much and you can get undesirable effects as well. The S13 system is tuned to work with the car as it came out of factory , the further " upgrades" cause the car to deviate from it's original spec. the harder a time the ESC will have doing its job properly. Worst case the system starts to see what it thinks are implausible inputs and just switches off.
@haxer the ABS that was around in the 90s is terrible compared to modern technology. Think about how much computers have evolved in the last 40 years. More resolution means less interference when you don't want it. And yes, while the oem abs unit is balanced for the car, it's only for the normal street car, once you have big tires, high speeds, and crazy braking loads, the old abs is not up to the task.
@@hpa101 Gonna fit it to my FC Mazda RX-7. Stock T2 models got prehistoric ABS system fitted, but my car came without one as it was a lower spec model. Sourced an M3 unit so no coding required either, will also swap the Master cyl and Brake booster for bmw Z3 unit 👌
You mentioned companies being able to flash the mk60 to adjust the map to desired applications (racing mostly i imagine). How well will it be able to cope with wildly different wheel and tire combinations? As in, it was originally on a bmw with what i assume are much lighter rotating tires. You will be using it on a land cruiser with tires that have more mass and rotational inertia to them. Is the abs module able to detect and relearn the pressure cycle timings in order to have the new setup behave properly in abs application conditions?
Sorry to be off topic of this video but have you done or going to do an in-depth video on your suspension design, particularly the geometry and reasons for the values you aimed for?
@@hpa101 That's a shame. There is very little content on offroad suspension design. Would have been interested to see your thought process in this area as I'm assuming there would be some compromises to make it drive nice on the road vs performing well offroad depending on the type of offroad driving you intend to do with it. If there is any channel capable of getting into the nitty gritty it's you guys. Anyways love your work and it's nice to see a 4wd on the channel.
@@bennyjahmin3953 yes it's something we want to dive into but can't give it the time to do justice to it right now sadly. In the future though I hope we can get into it - Taz.
@@hpa101 Understandable. There is alot to it. Is it possible you could get some good footage of the link setup and coilover arrangement in an upcoming video. Just for some inspiration to others. I know in the states it's very common to build custom links but in Aus and I'm assuming NZ the legalities make it alot less common. Keen to see this thing get dirty
Will give it a shot for sure and once it's finished we'll do a full run down as well as there has been enough interest to warrant that I reckon. In case you missed it in a previous vid we did outsource much of that work (pretty much all to be fair!) to a local business, Tomsoffroad. He might have something already up on his page as I know he posts a bit: facebook.com/tomsoffroad1/ - Taz.
That's not something we have done sorry so I couldn't say in regards to controlling OEM ABS with an aftermarket ECU. What are you trying to achieve by doing this compared to having a standalone unit? Most OEM systems are essentially stand alone from the ECU rather than controlled by them noting what is being used here is exactly that from another vehicle - Taz.
How long have you had it installed for? Any niggles beyond the physical setup? Certainly seems like a great option given feedback from those who have done it - Taz.
@@hpa101 nope! No problems, its crazy when you get deep into the brakes and you can feel it engage each wheel independently. I recommend it to everyone that can’t afford Bosch. And I’m pretty sure you could do the CSL flash yourself.
We are on a time crunch so there are some things we are doing and some we are outsourcing to try make sure it doesn't drag on too long. Cheers for sharing your input there too mate, appreciate it and stoked it has worked out well for you, good work on the execution too 😎 - Taz.
Idea of fitting abs to a vehicle that doesn't have it is very foreign to me . I find factory abs to be downright dangerous when used outside of its design parameters
Interested in this one, how would it go with larger tire sizes - i.e. wheel RPM would be the same for a larger 4wd tire, but I'm assuming it would need config changes for the rpm vs vehicle speed vs abs pulses etc?
ABS doesn't in principal care how fast the vehicle is going is just wants to have a reference speed that it can spot if one or more wheels is starting to lock. The calibration of tyre rollnig circumference can be changed in the ABS if you have a flashable ECU ( they aren't all flashable some older units are ROM ) and have the right OEM developer tools - or knockoffs thereof. Ensuring the right speed calibration is only important where the car uses that signal for the Speedo ( most modern cars with CAN bus and some older ones with hardwired vehicle speed output from ABS ECU to instrument pack) or where there are add-on systems like Hill descent control in the ESC ECU that have a target vehicle speed. Systems that have a tyre deflation detection system that relies on analysing wheel speed signals rahther than actual tyre pressure signals of course also rely on a tyre calibration ( its much more complicated than jsut rolling circumference in this case, but you're not going to be using that feature on a standalone retrofit
It's worth a search around, there is a lot of info out there on this from others that know more than us on these units. We're just keeping you in the loop as we go with what we are doing - Taz. PS: Just to not be completely unhelpful, this might answer some of your questions: 3dmmotorsport.com/blogs/mk60-standalone-abs
Could you guys create an absolute pinout for the ABS unit itself? I've wired mine in but I have no idea why it's not working, I think I might not be getting a wheels speed signal.
Not yet. Andre has cleared the calendar to work on it from November though as he wants to drive it rather than look at it sitting in the corner of the workshop waiting - Taz.
Everywhere I have checked how to install this system they say it needs to have active abs sensors which means magnetoresistive sensors, that regular old school vr sensors would not work with this like you said? And if you will get mk60e1 from newer BMW or audi it has those pressure sensors built in so it makes installing and wiring easier.
Yea sorry there was a little confusion over the sensors. I was trying to make clear that the ABS system uses magnetic rather than a hall style sensor but yes, they do need to be magnetoresistive style sensors. This poses some complexity for our installation as the front sensors need to go through the axle housing and hence need to be sealed to prevent oil leaks. This means the BMW sensors won't work, however this style of sensor is common place so there should be plenty of options - Andre
@@hpa101 yeah, I'm collecting parts to make this modification to my r32 gtr so I'm very keen on seeing more of your videos about this to help me plan and execute this to my car, especially how to wire this to pdm and how to get the weel speed info to my ecu. Thank you very much in advance for all your help 🙂
@@veli-mattipatinen203 i'm also looking for this as an option to my nissan build ;) though i'm working s14 and 2jz swap, the s chassis seems to have only 1 rear abs sensor and its fitted to the diff, so i'm wondering if i can make this work. where did you find the unit btw? cheapest one that i could find with one of the 3 bwm part mumbers listed in bimmerforums is around 500e
@@jkotka I will get back to you on that when I find the web page I used year ago. But basically any bmw or audi abs unit is the same. And they have been used even in Peugeot and Renault and so on. Nettivaraosa is good place to look. And around year 2009 and onwards every car uses mk60e1 that has built in pressure sensors. But I think bmw ones have more sporty mapping in the abs unit compared to Peugeot or stuff like that
It's worth a search around, there is a lot of info out there on this from others that know more than us on these units. We're just keeping you in the loop as we go with what we are doing - Taz. PS: Just to not be completely unhelpful, this might answer some of your questions: 3dmmotorsport.com/blogs/mk60-standalone-abs
I'm not sure that encouraging DIY ABS system installation is a good idea, given that someone without sufficient knowledge will almost certainly have a go on a road car. How are you going to account for it being inevitably fitted to a system with radically different front to rear brake pressure ratio requirements, weight distribution, rolling radii and especially in this case, C of G height than the model that the software in the ABS unit is designed for? In a way, the engineer in me hopes the answer is that the ABS software has been fully reverse engineered (like various Bosch VW engine management systems like ME 7.1.1), and aftermarket software has been developed to allow them to be configured correctly. That way there is an affordable route to aftermarket ABS for those with the knowledge to install it correctly. But why would anyone do that? The market will always be very small, and nobody would want the liability for such software. With Bosch's motorsport ABS systems, they're very expensive because they are a very niche product, and because no doubt they have had to build a user interface for configuring them which is suitable for use by those without a background in OEM brake system engineering. However, I also suspect that part of the reason for their high cost is because Bosch don't want anything to do with amateur installation in road vehicles, so price them at a level which would put off pretty much all but the professional motorsport customers that they're intended for. Most if not all Bosch ABS systems up to ABS 5.7 or ABS 8.0 are relatively if not totally stand alone systems, and can relatively easily be installed in any vehicle so that they are plumbed and wired correctly, and connected to the (very few) correct external sensors. I am not convinced that this means it should be done, or especially that folks should be online potentially encouraging others to try to do so. Surely the consequences of them getting it wrong are too big? Is this not a near perfect example of the relatively little knowledge needed to fit such a system being a dangerous thing? I can totally imagine some over confident amateur or garage owner, etc, with no background in engineering coming across this online, thinking they know all there is to know about it (because they only see the relatively easy installation work), and forging ahead, on a road car, without even knowing that the software in their ABS ECU has numerous things configured totally incorrectly. Or knowing that extensive testing, by someone who really understands what they are doing will be needed. 99.9% of the time ABS does nothing at all. The tiny fraction of a percentage of the time an amateur installed, incorrectly configures, untested system is actively doing something is the exact time you don't want to discover how wrong you got it. I notice you have a tandem master cylinder with a totally non standard brake system, and calipers seemingly chosen by accident. How are you going to get the basic front to rear brake bias correct with that system? Surely you'll need an adjustable bias pedal box to enable you to get the bias roughly right by selecting potentially very different sized front and read master cylinders, then fine tune it with the balance bar? This will probably also require a pressure reducing valve in the rear brake circuit to send less braking to the rear the heavier you brake, especially in a high C of G vehicle. Surely this needs to be designed and tested to prove that the front axle always locks before the rear under all all normal friction conditions before even considering ABS?
We're just explaining what we are doing noting this also gets tested and checked by our local authorities before going on the road. If you personally don't think you are up to fitting an ABS system Richard, don't, and we're not telling you that you should just because we have - Taz.
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I wish Haltech or Motec, Link, Holley etc would come out with a standalone ABS unit. It seems traction control is becoming pretty common with standalone ECU integrations. Would be nice to have the same control over the braking system.
There's a huge amount of liability associated with anything related to braking which at a guess would make it very unlikely for any of the ECU manufacturers to jump onboard and offer ABS units.
I’ve thought about this too, but isn’t there a lot of liability too with the e-throttle? But that is pretty common with aftermarket ECUs. Is it maybe because if an e-throttle gets stuck you can shut off the vehicle, but if an ABS gives out, there isn’t much to do? Love the content and conversation, keep up!
They could just wave the 'for off road use only' flag
@Andrew fair question, I don't really have the answer but my thoughts are that for us, the braking system is tested and signed off before it goes onto the road. Even if you haven't modified the brakes, that is part of the certification process.
I don't believe they have any tests for throttle control beyond just driving it, but also I am unsure if there is any actual legal precedence to even worry about that or if companies are just overly cautious. That said, most major ECU manufacturers now do offer DBW support and have done for quite some time.
Same vein but completely different, individually wrapped fruit in some countries was done as supermarkets claimed food laws said it was necessary. No food laws actually said that, and no one had actually gotten in trouble for not doing it, yet it was widely accepted in more than one country as the norm - Taz.
@JDM not sure that really flies anymore given what is happening with the EPA and emissions in the US for parts that were labelled as 'offroad only' still getting companies in trouble.
Remember, we're never personally responsible for our own personal actions, it's always someone else's fault these days and in this case it is easier to police a few 1000 performance part companies than it is millions of individuals - Taz.
It's worth a quick note (because no one seems to be a fan of personal responsibility these days) if you do this, you need to make sure what you are doing is correct and legal for your location. As we state, we have already talked to our local governing body since this is going to be a road-legal vehicle which they will test before signing off. We don't know your rules, we are doing what we want to do with our own project for us and are not recommending you do exactly the same.
Andre also clearly states this is not a direct alternative for a motorsport-specific setup, they are very different and come with different price tags and capabilities. I doubt anyone keen to do something like this would have ever been considering a motorsport-specific unit anyway to be honest, but just in case you heard differently to what Andre stated, here it is again.
Also if you run with scissors and fall only to find them embedded in your favourite left leg, that is not the scissor company's fault, your shoe company's fault or whatever you tripped over fault requires a lawsuit, that's on you cuz. Be a good human - Taz 👨🏻
TL:DR - Use your own brain that's what it's there for.
So, long story short. I'm also restomoding a high hp street Starlet. Got a set of 4 pot caliper pair. Had a convo yesterday with a friend about installing an ABS system. And there you guys come to the rescue. I love you 😆
You're welcome :)
In your next abs video, you should definitely get very thorough footage and information about integrating wheel speed sensors and reluctors into the car
I previously looked at ABS on Crustida, so I started down the rabbit hole of what Toyota has used since the 90s to roughly the 2010s. TLDR version, the software language of the Toyota system makes it next to impossible to transfer over and so many issues with the systems itself (just ask any Aurion owner who has the CEL from the ABS fault) make it a fruitless exercise. So I just went with the 355mm BBK and we'll hope for the best. 😎👍
Are you interested in a system like this?
Poll related to video: czcams.com/users/postUgkxkT7etn8HRtWf058LM0KCWWbXYCQp4y3u
The timing of these videos is always so convenient. Glad to have come across this channel
Cheers for the support dude - Taz.
The MK60 is common failure module in BMW and VW Golf - the internal pressure sensor frequently fails, the internal pin connectors are a interferance fit to the board which can become unreliable with age and vibrations.
Then...What A.B.S. model brand do you recommend ?.
The Yaw sensor (actually it's a sensor cluster with lat. long. and yaw sensors, often part of the airbag system and not always a DSC system part) should not be needed for basic ABS and TCS brake intervention on a 2WD car, 4wd Cars need a longitudinal accleration sensor to help with the reference speed due to all 4 wheels also influenced by the drive train as well as brakes . The lateral and yaw components are needed for the stability control ( ESC , DSC) part of the software and the calibration of that is much more vehicle dependent than base TCS and in my view shouldn't be attempted unless one has the right development tools and can run all the necessary vehicle tests on various friction surfaces as is done in the OE world. I would be really surprised if the NZ homologation authorities would entertain that. Even base ABS and TCS function has some element of vehicle dependent adaption and if the retrofitted vehicle is too different to the OE car the system is taken from - brake sizing, suspension behaviour, you can get undesirable effects from very rough ABS intervention to poor stopping distance to cooked brakes in traction control to unstable behaviour on split mue surfaces. The ABS units also have a feature called electronic brake force distribution which replaces the old load , G or brake pressure dependent brake force proportioning valves on older cars and this can also lead to poor rear brake utilization if there is too much difference between the OE vehicle and the retro fitted one . I don't see that a 2WD BMW car software is going to cut it in an old school 4WD. Better to start with a system from a more similar car. EBD will also mess with the mastercylinder balance on track/race cars using twin master cylinder set ups on a balance bar.
Excellent response. I have limited understanding of the systems but have read enough to understand the basic theory of operation & the swapping of a system to a different application worries me greatly. The early ABS systems were in many circumstances more of a hinderance than a help & having a poorly calibrated modern system with additional functionality running (or falesafes due to missing inputs/errors) is quite a concerning proposition, especially when you consider the system has power of veto over the brakes! I guess it's one of those things which is ok until it isn't....and then it's a really bad day out for all concerned!
Love the MDF prototype wheel speed sensor ring
Nice work Andre 👌
Not something I'd thought about, but I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to run an engine in a car with an aftermarket ecu, but might be hampered by a factory vehicle abs system that needs the factory ecu.
This might be a way to get around the issue 👍
Great content as always!
I too am in the process of using this brake setup on my MR2 AW11. I'd actually be very keen to see the integrations of the wheel speed outputs for traction control strategies.
How much did it end up costing you all in on the system? Would love to install this system on my FD rx7
@Eric-uy4tx I had the parts, custom harness and everything needed, spare the brake lines, just over the $2k mark. You can source the parts yourself and save, but I found value in getting everything in one go.
Take $25 USD off ANY HP Academy course with this coupon: CZcams25
Enroll now: hpcdmy.co/25offytc - Taz 👨🏻
This is Gold! Keeping this idea in the back pocket.
Since you have a live axle, what did you do for rear wheel speed sensors?
I would love to do an overland build but I'm worried about stuffing my family into an old vehicle like this for safety. I wish there were standalone airbag systems that would be perfect for a big box of a car/truck that you could hide systems like this
Modern airbag systems work so well because the design for them starts with the structure of the vehicle itself. I'm not a chassis engineer but that seems like quite a challenge.
Life is full of risks though at the end of the day and your diet is probably more likely to kill you. I say that as an owner and driver of an old-ish Nissan Patrol 😂 - Taz.
Neat this is definitely something to consider keep up the great videos
Will probably be a few months away but I'm sure Andre will post an update once tested too. I just made a playlist to try keep the FJ40 stuff together, make sure you follow it if you are keen to keep an eye out for more specifically on this in the future 😎 - Taz.
This is the same one found in a mercedes glc
Looks almost exactly like the one on my 2022 harley touring bike.
Hope it's better than the one on my BMW bike! Safe touring - Taz.
Pretty cool. Check with marks 4wd in australia. They have a lot of parts that might help you.
They've come a long way from just adaptors eh! - Taz.
Since this uses a hydraulic pressure sensor for both circuits (front and rear), is there any knowledge on how it would behave with uneven brakebalance, both mechanical balancing bar and by diff. main brake cylinder sizes?
Thank you so much! This super intresting and informative. Can point me to same company you bought all these parts?
Is brake traction control going to be a feature for off road ?
- if so, can you give some details as to what is to be done with the programming
We will get into a bit more detail on that as things progress. Nothing has happened since this update.
I'm not sure of Andres plans on that front, but I know it is something the likes of KTM etc are pretty incolved with these days in the way of motorcycle ABS which they seem to be having good results with - Taz.
Definatley something I'll be looking into this someone has put a rx8 abs controller onto a fd rx7 which is what im currently building into a track car
Please keep us updated on this project, I too want to use this MK60 unit in my old Honda on a haltech elite,, but I fear it may need reprogramming and not sure how to approach it
We will. It will be a few more weeks though, we are into racing now for the next 2 months so this is on hold - Taz.
My 90's live axle autox/hpde car has a single master cylinder. How important is a dual cylinder for the mk60? Can the sensors be installed elsewhere? Oem offered TCS, so I can install the rear axles that have the exterior reluctor rings. What model of active sensor did you use to pickup the signal?
Sooo programming will be critical for setting up a system that is practical and consistent. Question I have is what software is going to be used and can it factor in bigger diameter rear drive wheels with smaller diameter from wheels with faster rotation speed but possibly lower traction limits?
Hi guys. Trying to find one of these mk60 units. But I did find the company that sells them new and with harness and flashed to suit for $3300 US. I do like te diy approach so can you hurry up and finish yours to see if it works lol
you can flash it with WinKFP yourself
Did the testing for this ever get anywhere? I’m curious whether the “generic” E46 tuning you’d find if you picked this up at a junkyard combined with a properly sized master cylinder and a reasonable brake bias would get you 20% of the way to an OE system, or more like 90% of the way there.
I live in Canada, where preventing lockup in the summer on the track vs preventing lockup in traffic on ice in the winter will lead to drastic differences in which wheels will get picked on by an OE system (since ideal brake bias is heavily dependent on available traction). I wonder if, by also manually adjusting front/rear brake bias by season or by application, we could hand-hold an unflashed system like this into good performance over a wide range of applications
Not yet, project is on hold for the race season so the poor old 40 is sitting and waiting for now - Taz.
okay so what software are we looking at to tune this? or is this just a mapped unit and we are taking the BMW algorithm and just going with that? is this just made by BOSCH for bmw? or is this manufactured by someone else?
We aren't intending to map this ourselves. There are specialists like 3dmmotorsport.com who offer this as a service. The MK60 isn't a Bosch unit but is made by Teves/Continental who also manufacture a professional motorsport version that is a competitor to the Bosch Motorsport M5 ABS unit - Andre
@@hpa101 great supplemental info! I have been looking st a Bosch unit, as I'm in the USA and don't know anyone that can do it. But it's something I'll look into! Thanks!
Might be a silly question but can the wheel speed sensor for an ABS system like this also be used for traction control in something like a Haltech 2500 ECU?
I'm new into hard tuning, but I'm wondering why would you need standalone ABS. Is it always a thing, when upgrading brakes to aftermarket, or is it more to that? And what about OEM ABS system? For example I got S13 which I'm building up from scracth - would I be needing standalone ABS when installing bigger brakes too?
I think this is aimed at cars that never had abs, or modern cars that are that heavily modified that the abs no longer works because of integration issues.
As long as you keep the brake balance close to OE the original S13 system will in principal work as intended but "bigger" brakes ( a much misused and misunderstood term) can cause harsh and less than ideal ABS etc. , activation as the brakes will experience slower torque reduction than expected when the ABS system reduces pressure and bigger torque increases than the system expects when it wants to increase brake pressure. The system is of course closed loop and will try to correct in the next control cycles , but the way the system "drives" may feel significanlty different to stock and ESC if fitted will likely feel "twitchier" due to too large initial corner interventions to correct yaw angle of the car. Mess around with the front rear balance and it will only get worse. Mess around with the suspension geometry too much and you can get undesirable effects as well. The S13 system is tuned to work with the car as it came out of factory , the further " upgrades" cause the car to deviate from it's original spec. the harder a time the ESC will have doing its job properly. Worst case the system starts to see what it thinks are implausible inputs and just switches off.
@haxer the ABS that was around in the 90s is terrible compared to modern technology. Think about how much computers have evolved in the last 40 years. More resolution means less interference when you don't want it.
And yes, while the oem abs unit is balanced for the car, it's only for the normal street car, once you have big tires, high speeds, and crazy braking loads, the old abs is not up to the task.
Nice, already sourcing stuff for this system, and then ur video comes out👍🏼
How exciting mate! What are you fitting it to? - Taz.
@@hpa101 Gonna fit it to my FC Mazda RX-7.
Stock T2 models got prehistoric ABS system fitted, but my car came without one as it was a lower spec model. Sourced an M3 unit so no coding required either, will also swap the Master cyl and Brake booster for bmw Z3 unit 👌
Is there going to be sequel to this ABS installation? Maybe how to wire it to PDM if that is even possible?
Yes, still a while away though, We will also have some content on a motorsport ABS unit next year too - Taz.
FJ's could have a need for launch control, haven't you watched the Skid Factory series yet 😄
It's hard to keep up with those boys! - Taz.
Is this unit the same one as one a number of other cars, VW Golfs etc?
So where can I find the standalone ABS conversion kit?
You mentioned companies being able to flash the mk60 to adjust the map to desired applications (racing mostly i imagine). How well will it be able to cope with wildly different wheel and tire combinations? As in, it was originally on a bmw with what i assume are much lighter rotating tires. You will be using it on a land cruiser with tires that have more mass and rotational inertia to them. Is the abs module able to detect and relearn the pressure cycle timings in order to have the new setup behave properly in abs application conditions?
Yes, that is part of the setup and why you do it, to account for those changes and more - Taz.
@@hpa101 thank you for your response!
Sorry to be off topic of this video but have you done or going to do an in-depth video on your suspension design, particularly the geometry and reasons for the values you aimed for?
Not for this project sorry Benny - Taz.
@@hpa101
That's a shame. There is very little content on offroad suspension design. Would have been interested to see your thought process in this area as I'm assuming there would be some compromises to make it drive nice on the road vs performing well offroad depending on the type of offroad driving you intend to do with it.
If there is any channel capable of getting into the nitty gritty it's you guys.
Anyways love your work and it's nice to see a 4wd on the channel.
@@bennyjahmin3953 yes it's something we want to dive into but can't give it the time to do justice to it right now sadly. In the future though I hope we can get into it - Taz.
@@hpa101
Understandable. There is alot to it.
Is it possible you could get some good footage of the link setup and coilover arrangement in an upcoming video. Just for some inspiration to others.
I know in the states it's very common to build custom links but in Aus and I'm assuming NZ the legalities make it alot less common.
Keen to see this thing get dirty
Will give it a shot for sure and once it's finished we'll do a full run down as well as there has been enough interest to warrant that I reckon.
In case you missed it in a previous vid we did outsource much of that work (pretty much all to be fair!) to a local business, Tomsoffroad. He might have something already up on his page as I know he posts a bit: facebook.com/tomsoffroad1/ - Taz.
Was there a follow up to this video on the mk60 abs system?
Not yet, the project has sadly been sitting in the corner of the shed for the last 12 months - Taz.
Any updates on this Taz?
Is there any way to wire stock abs unit with standalone ecu
That's not something we have done sorry so I couldn't say in regards to controlling OEM ABS with an aftermarket ECU.
What are you trying to achieve by doing this compared to having a standalone unit? Most OEM systems are essentially stand alone from the ECU rather than controlled by them noting what is being used here is exactly that from another vehicle - Taz.
how you control this unit when it's fitted to another car?
I love my mk60 on my time attack S2000!!!
How long have you had it installed for? Any niggles beyond the physical setup? Certainly seems like a great option given feedback from those who have done it - Taz.
@@hpa101 nope! No problems, its crazy when you get deep into the brakes and you can feel it engage each wheel independently. I recommend it to everyone that can’t afford Bosch. And I’m pretty sure you could do the CSL flash yourself.
I’ve had it for about a year. I also used e46 wheel speed sensors to keep it simple. 4 fronts as they are smaller in size and easier to fit.
We are on a time crunch so there are some things we are doing and some we are outsourcing to try make sure it doesn't drag on too long.
Cheers for sharing your input there too mate, appreciate it and stoked it has worked out well for you, good work on the execution too 😎 - Taz.
Is this the kit that requires active wheel speed sensors? Did your s2k originally have passive or active sensors?
I might be wrong, but woud't it be easier to get a old style analog abs module and control it externaly? Like for example with output from ecu or pdm.
It's so nois to drive a kaaaaaa on choosday...
Idea of fitting abs to a vehicle that doesn't have it is very foreign to me . I find factory abs to be downright dangerous when used outside of its design parameters
Interested in this one, how would it go with larger tire sizes - i.e. wheel RPM would be the same for a larger 4wd tire, but I'm assuming it would need config changes for the rpm vs vehicle speed vs abs pulses etc?
ABS doesn't in principal care how fast the vehicle is going is just wants to have a reference speed that it can spot if one or more wheels is starting to lock. The calibration of tyre rollnig circumference can be changed in the ABS if you have a flashable ECU ( they aren't all flashable some older units are ROM ) and have the right OEM developer tools - or knockoffs thereof. Ensuring the right speed calibration is only important where the car uses that signal for the Speedo ( most modern cars with CAN bus and some older ones with hardwired vehicle speed output from ABS ECU to instrument pack) or where there are add-on systems like Hill descent control in the ESC ECU that have a target vehicle speed. Systems that have a tyre deflation detection system that relies on analysing wheel speed signals rahther than actual tyre pressure signals of course also rely on a tyre calibration ( its much more complicated than jsut rolling circumference in this case, but you're not going to be using that feature on a standalone retrofit
@@jabberwockytdi8901 great info, thanks!
I would sell my abs $1000 that's a good price on the exchange now.
www.hpacademy.com/assets/79c765d62b/part-out-part-out-part-out-part-out.jpeg
What's the difference between the M3 ABS unit and a standard e46?
It's worth a search around, there is a lot of info out there on this from others that know more than us on these units. We're just keeping you in the loop as we go with what we are doing - Taz.
PS: Just to not be completely unhelpful, this might answer some of your questions: 3dmmotorsport.com/blogs/mk60-standalone-abs
Could you guys create an absolute pinout for the ABS unit itself? I've wired mine in but I have no idea why it's not working, I think I might not be getting a wheels speed signal.
Mk60 pinouts can be found very easily on the internet
Try this - www.m3e30.fr/medias/files/mk60-wiring-instructions.pdf
@@hpa101 I think this one has the brake pedal required inputs inverted- I’d have to check my records.
Did this ever progress ?
Not yet. Andre has cleared the calendar to work on it from November though as he wants to drive it rather than look at it sitting in the corner of the workshop waiting - Taz.
Everywhere I have checked how to install this system they say it needs to have active abs sensors which means magnetoresistive sensors, that regular old school vr sensors would not work with this like you said? And if you will get mk60e1 from newer BMW or audi it has those pressure sensors built in so it makes installing and wiring easier.
Yea sorry there was a little confusion over the sensors. I was trying to make clear that the ABS system uses magnetic rather than a hall style sensor but yes, they do need to be magnetoresistive style sensors. This poses some complexity for our installation as the front sensors need to go through the axle housing and hence need to be sealed to prevent oil leaks. This means the BMW sensors won't work, however this style of sensor is common place so there should be plenty of options - Andre
@@hpa101 yeah, I'm collecting parts to make this modification to my r32 gtr so I'm very keen on seeing more of your videos about this to help me plan and execute this to my car, especially how to wire this to pdm and how to get the weel speed info to my ecu. Thank you very much in advance for all your help 🙂
@@veli-mattipatinen203 i'm also looking for this as an option to my nissan build ;) though i'm working s14 and 2jz swap, the s chassis seems to have only 1 rear abs sensor and its fitted to the diff, so i'm wondering if i can make this work. where did you find the unit btw? cheapest one that i could find with one of the 3 bwm part mumbers listed in bimmerforums is around 500e
@@jkotka I will get back to you on that when I find the web page I used year ago. But basically any bmw or audi abs unit is the same. And they have been used even in Peugeot and Renault and so on. Nettivaraosa is good place to look. And around year 2009 and onwards every car uses mk60e1 that has built in pressure sensors. But I think bmw ones have more sporty mapping in the abs unit compared to Peugeot or stuff like that
can anyone tell me whats is the part number for the ABS unit ?
It's worth a search around, there is a lot of info out there on this from others that know more than us on these units. We're just keeping you in the loop as we go with what we are doing - Taz.
PS: Just to not be completely unhelpful, this might answer some of your questions: 3dmmotorsport.com/blogs/mk60-standalone-abs
@@hpa101 Thanks guys, i did find that article myself and looks like those units are quite hard to come by currently.
A sign of the times really. I tried to order a part on Friday and was told it was a 16 week wait. Eek - Taz.
They can take my abs unit from my s8 rx7 / not keen on it haha
But anyway off topic reply is basically an off topic reply carry on guys love your podcasts
I'm not sure that encouraging DIY ABS system installation is a good idea, given that someone without sufficient knowledge will almost certainly have a go on a road car. How are you going to account for it being inevitably fitted to a system with radically different front to rear brake pressure ratio requirements, weight distribution, rolling radii and especially in this case, C of G height than the model that the software in the ABS unit is designed for?
In a way, the engineer in me hopes the answer is that the ABS software has been fully reverse engineered (like various Bosch VW engine management systems like ME 7.1.1), and aftermarket software has been developed to allow them to be configured correctly. That way there is an affordable route to aftermarket ABS for those with the knowledge to install it correctly. But why would anyone do that? The market will always be very small, and nobody would want the liability for such software.
With Bosch's motorsport ABS systems, they're very expensive because they are a very niche product, and because no doubt they have had to build a user interface for configuring them which is suitable for use by those without a background in OEM brake system engineering. However, I also suspect that part of the reason for their high cost is because Bosch don't want anything to do with amateur installation in road vehicles, so price them at a level which would put off pretty much all but the professional motorsport customers that they're intended for.
Most if not all Bosch ABS systems up to ABS 5.7 or ABS 8.0 are relatively if not totally stand alone systems, and can relatively easily be installed in any vehicle so that they are plumbed and wired correctly, and connected to the (very few) correct external sensors. I am not convinced that this means it should be done, or especially that folks should be online potentially encouraging others to try to do so. Surely the consequences of them getting it wrong are too big? Is this not a near perfect example of the relatively little knowledge needed to fit such a system being a dangerous thing?
I can totally imagine some over confident amateur or garage owner, etc, with no background in engineering coming across this online, thinking they know all there is to know about it (because they only see the relatively easy installation work), and forging ahead, on a road car, without even knowing that the software in their ABS ECU has numerous things configured totally incorrectly. Or knowing that extensive testing, by someone who really understands what they are doing will be needed. 99.9% of the time ABS does nothing at all. The tiny fraction of a percentage of the time an amateur installed, incorrectly configures, untested system is actively doing something is the exact time you don't want to discover how wrong you got it.
I notice you have a tandem master cylinder with a totally non standard brake system, and calipers seemingly chosen by accident. How are you going to get the basic front to rear brake bias correct with that system? Surely you'll need an adjustable bias pedal box to enable you to get the bias roughly right by selecting potentially very different sized front and read master cylinders, then fine tune it with the balance bar? This will probably also require a pressure reducing valve in the rear brake circuit to send less braking to the rear the heavier you brake, especially in a high C of G vehicle. Surely this needs to be designed and tested to prove that the front axle always locks before the rear under all all normal friction conditions before even considering ABS?
We're just explaining what we are doing noting this also gets tested and checked by our local authorities before going on the road. If you personally don't think you are up to fitting an ABS system Richard, don't, and we're not telling you that you should just because we have - Taz.
Imagine having a Landcruiser with a working handbrake
I know right. He'll almost want to break it just so it feel likes a Landcrusier again haha