Jesus Didn't Teach Eternal Torment - Keith Giles
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Keith Giles talks about how the teaching of eternal torment crept into the early church and how Jesus' famous warnings of "hell" can be understood differently.
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I came to know Christ in jail in 2013 by reading a book, "Overcoming spiritual blindness" by James P. Gills MD. The veil was taken off my eyes. Heaven came through for me in my finances too, getting $35,500 monthly. I can support God's work and give back to my community. God is more than enough!
Congratulations you are doing well at your age my finances are in a rally in mess right now and this great tip will go a long way in shaping my life I'm open to ideas
What a testimony!!!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 I'm genuinely curious to know how you earn that much monthly
I work at a restaurant here in Houston Texas. Things have been really difficult as I'm a single mom and trying my best to pay bills and take care of my daughters.
I started pretty low investing in forex though with $2000 thereabouts. The returns came massive. Joey is in school doing well, telling me of new friends he's meeting in school. Cathie Wood is a Blessing to my life
I know this lady you just mentioned here. She's good with and on her job. She's helped a couple of families and individuals with finances
I've always said that you can't love what you fear. Many people turn to Christianity out of fear of hell not love for God or Jesus. I couldn't really come to love God while I was afraid of being condemned to hell by not being good enough. It was Jesus' words that I kept standing on "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" that finally came true for me, when I realised that God is love, and following Jesus meant walking in forgiveness and love.....no condemnation
If you think it's about being good enough, then you've missed the entire point. The point is no amount of good works can save us - only a good and gracious God. After all, if good works can save us, then Jesus died in vain. We're saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by works. Jesus did it all on the cross.
The bible says to do both
@@TRUTHINCHRIST-cw8ke True salvation brings forth works. But they're not the cause of our salvation - but the manifestation of our salvation. They're merely an outward expression of an inward reality: salvation.
@@user-md7uc5tx6b If someone leaves the narrow road and dies in rebellion toward GOD and CHRIST they will die with no salvation.
I loved my dad growing up and I feared him and ticking him off, letting him down etc. I was 300 pounds when I raised my kids as a football coach and former bodybuilder and poerrlifter. They loved me to smithereens but feared me. Your point is moot. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom the Bible says.
The Christian teaching of eternal torment has done a lot of damage to me in my youth. It caused a real hatred of Christians and their supposed "loving God." It's kind of relieving to embrace the possibility of the early Christians getting their facts wrong because they are flawed human beings just like everybody else.
I too suffered immensely from this doctrine. It turned me away from God. I was fortunate enough to hear the still small voice of the Holy Spirit directing me to take Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 literally (death & perish). I have since been drawn to study God’s word, repent of my sins, and strive to be Christ-like. I have grown to LOVE God and I pray that you too can find peace after being taught this terrible false doctrine. May God bless you 🙏🏻
Yes same here
So, God lied when he said "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". So, you're saying the fire is quenced? So, Jesus lied when he gave the parable of the rich man? I believe God's word and not man.
@@ednakelley814 Are you sure you are not misinterpreting what you are reading? That verse does not clarify anything about Hell, but you are clearly leaning on religious dogma to claim you understand what it means.
@@demonicaxeman7264 The Lord literally is talking about the fact hell is so real and forever that any sin needs to be delt with to keep you out of hell thus the part where he says if your eye offends, pluck it out becuase it's better to enter heaven with one eye than for you to go to hell. A hell where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. A child could read that and understand. God isn't trying to trick you with that verse. It's very plain. How could any of that be interpreted anyway else?
1 Corinthians 15:22
As in Adam, all are dying (everyone is mortal, facing death); THUS also in Christ, shall all be vivified (everyone will be made alive beyond death’s reach)…thank you Christ Jesus!!! ❤️🙌🏽🙏🏽
AMEN!!
🙏
Yes, but one thing the universalist don't tell you is, HOW TO GET IN CHRIST...???...???
@@Roc-Righteous Believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
@@Roc-RighteousYOU ARE/IN HIM at least for 2000 years😂
@@Roc-Righteous How did everyone get in Adam?
Sir, you are absolutely correct! Jesus taught the principles of the kingdom to Israel which have nothing to do with hell and damnation and never ending torture. If Jesus spoke so much on hell, which is a lie of epic proportions, did He forget to tell the great Apostle Paul who received his gospel by direct revelation from the Lord Jesus himself and never mentioned hell one time in his writings of most of the NT? John didn't mention it either is his writings of five books of the NT...neither did Moses, or Noah, or Father Abraham, or the Judges of Israel, or the street preachers in the Acts of the Apostles. That should be a big, big clue!
Can you explain the Aramaic bible Matthew 25:46?
@@KSSBG Try punishment age during from the Young's Literal Translation a very literal work. Check it out for yourself online. God has always dealt with mankind in ages....and always will....for example, Jesus said that the Pharisees would not be forgiven for the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost in this age (law) or in the age to come (church)...but after that and in due time....according to the great Apostle Paul....ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SHAVED including the hypocritical and morally corrupt ones who had Him crucified and cried....crucify Him let His blood be on our hands. The KJ translators have caused a lot of confusion by their mishandling and inconsistent translation of the Greek word aion...which can be translated age, course or world depending on the context....they translated the plural of age as eternal or everlasting which is bad English much less Greek. Take care and thanks for commenting!!!
Re Joe.. Thank you for your comments :)
The letters of John (plus the gospels, the letter of Hebrews and Revelation) are still Old Test, as all of them were written to the people of Israel. Also Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf.
And all of those prophecies were brought into fulfilling at the cross of Jesus. 70AD
Yes, we need to read the letters of Paul, James and Peter.
@eekay5710
That’s very interesting. I have never heard of Revelation being an Old Testament book or written before Jesus.
That would be so powerful if it is true.
Do any of you have a source or are there any articles or CZcams videos on this topic?
Didn't JESUS TALK MORE ABOUT HELL MORE THAN HEAVEN?
I used to be a fundamentalist christian years ago... before I discovered I TIM 4:10-- "We rely on the living God who is the Savior of All, especially of believers."
When I first read those words, I was so mad a Paul.... for using such loose language that someone, might come along and actually believe that "God was the Savior of all"... Paul, how could you????
So, I had to unlearn a lot of fundamentalist thinking.
Now, I confidently say with Paul -- God is the Savior of all"... and guess what... verse 11 says TEACH THIS.
So, here I am teaching that God is the Savior of all... Verse 9 says "This is a faithful saying"... and most fundy's don't think it's a faithful saying... I didn't at that time. And verse 9 says "this is worthy of all acceptance"... and guess what... most evangelical christians DON'T ACCEPT this "faithful" saying. And they DON'T TEACH IT. I heard thousands of sermons during my years as a regular ole christians... and NEVER ONCE heard a sermon on I Timothy 4:10.
CHECK IT OUT: I TIMOTHY 4 --
9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.
ONE MORE THING... The word "especially" and the word "exclusively" are not the same thing. God is especially the Savior of believers... but not exclusively.
Right on brother Ace. it sounds like the Truth is being suppressed in unrighteousness but Glory be to God who is the Savior of all, regardless if we believe him or not. I love Jesus, especially since he is our Savior, and he's not only our Savior but he's the Savior of the whole world!
The Bible itself was written by human beings. A lot of the Biblical authors didn't have access to each other's writings. Not saying the Bible on the whole is not inspired...but it's just worth keeping in mind.
Anyway, I think dedicated fundies will always have an argument to explain away inconvenient passages like this one. But they should still be confronted with it! Lol.
Yes, Jesus is the Savior of all and all are welcome. But that doesn't mean ALL will come to faith. Paul NEVER teaches that. For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, and those who BELIEVE in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Jesus died for ALL mankind, BUT not ALL will be saved. Many choose the broad path to destruction my friend. Narrow is the gate to eternal life and FEW find it
Galatians 1 : 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert[a] the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be [b]accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 3: 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
He’s the savior of all inasmuch as He offers salvation to all men, not that all receive that salvation. Jesus taught hellfire (Matthew 25:31-46).
Isaiah 43:13
Isaiah 43:13, KJV: Yea, before the day was I am He;
and there is none
that can deliver out of My hand:
I will work, and who shall prevent it?
Eternity belongs to The Eternal One Creator Of All
The created souls of men nor angels are able to prevent eternity
Surely, the soothsayers will arise in the very last days:
This prophecy is being brought to fulfillment on CZcams even
Gott say.....I have alot of love for Keith Giles....he loves Jesus & people....a real heart of UR
When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed they were destroyed forever. Never a mention of anyone going to a eternal torment. I've always understood Hades, Gahenna and hell to be the "Grave" so its always seemed simple to understand that eternal torment was a false teaching. " Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire and be burned up forever" never to return, not burn eternal.
That seems pretty self explanatory. If we live forever in paradise and no one dies we don't have a need for graves.
Ezekiel 16:55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.
@kevcooper3037 Your right. After judgment they will be.
@@jcsmith3806 Isaiah 26:9, Don't confuse what will be with what you prefer.
I hope so. I'm so confused on what to believe.
thank you for putting this out there !!
"Fear not man. Fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." That's pretty clear cut. Destruction isn't rehabilitation unless you REALLY mangle the text.
This passage has been clearly misunderstood,
This fastest had been clearly misunderstood Jesus is not talkin about the Afterlife with the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus said don't be afraid trust God, when this destruction comes you may die fall like a sparrow but God will not forget you, Jesus said fear the one who is able to destroy both your breath and your body, in the valley of Gehenna, the key here is trust God he is the only one who is able to destroy both, same as in Matthew 3:9 God is able to raise up stones to be Abraham's children, but did he ever raised up any stones to be Abraham's children no, but he is able. One must realize that Jesus is not talkin about the afterlife but the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem and when this destruction comes trust God, that's the whole point.
@@tommywarren4633 The very next verse says "If you deny me on Earth I will disown you before my father in Heaven.
We cannot quote scriptures of Jesus's sayings, as He was born under the law to fulfill it on the Jewish people's behalf. (Gentiles never was under the law). We need to turn the page.
The New starts with Acts 2, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
The biggest revelation of all times was given to Paul.. Christ within !
Col 1:26,27 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in (ín!) you, the hope of glory!
Song of Songs 8:2,3
The Shumalite woman, you.. 'I long to bring you to my innermost chamber- this holy sanctuary you have formed within me. O that I might carry you within me. I would give you the spiced wine of my love, this full cup of bliss that we share. We would drink our fill until . . . His left hand cradles my head while his right hand holds me close. We are at rest in this love'.
The Passion Transl.
John 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 17:20-23 'I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me'.
The New Covenant..
Oneness, included in the life of the Trinity (always have been and always will be), boldness and loved.
Father sees us (ALL) wrapped up in Christ, the very same ALL that was influenced in the fall of Adam.
@Storba..
Although the word "hell" appears in the Bible, it only was brought in during the time churches decided to have more control over people (fear;💰). That was the perception of many in those day, but the word 'hell' is definitely translated wrong.
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The next paragraph is by DA Taylor from his book EXECUTED to suppress His message:
Hell is a false doctrine.
The doctrine of hell was created by the Catholic Church to scare people into becoming Christians. And the doctrine worked so well, that most Protestant churches added it to their list of doctrines.
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The most common words that are used, are the Hebrew word Sheol & the Greek word Gehenna, Tartaro & Hades. Sometimes Abussos are also used as ref to 'hell'.
SHEOL - this word is mostly used in the OT where 'hell' could be interpretated, but it is only refers to the 'place' where everybody who dies, go. Temporary, only where the bodies were put in 'rest', nót a place of eternal punishment of any negative scare thought. We can also call this place the grave.
People of faith in the Old Test like king David (Ps 49:16 and 88:4), Jacob/Israel (Gen 37:35) and Hiskia (Jes 38:10) knew they were going to this 'place of rest', the grave). Súrely these 3 men never would ended up in the so-called' hell' as we have it in our thoughts!
HADES simply means 'not to see'. Spiritual blindness. Jesus in John 9 to the Pharisees & the man born blind.
I would love to believe that there is no eternal place of suffering but what about the rich man and Lazarus story. There was a great chasm fixed in between paradise and the place where the rich man went that was so hot he begged for lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool the rich mans tongue. It definitely sounds like there is a good place and a bad place people go when they die.
czcams.com/video/4RXjN75pVhU/video.html
czcams.com/video/-edj8VQOoVs/video.html
Re Tony.. Jesus has come to bring us good news. If what we hear is not goód news, then it simply is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
There definitely is no eternal place of suffering, as Jesus endured all suffering on mankind’s behalf. IT IS FINISHED! Barabas who was released from the cross, represents the entire human race!
Whatever reason any person can give to say someone will end up there, is not in line with the finished work of Jesus at the cross.
The parable in Luke 16:19-31 is a hidden message and cannot be understand literally.
The people of Israel were "the rich man" as they had the law, the prophets and the prophecies. The beggar represents the gentiles who had nothing of that richness, as they were not "the house of Israel", but were only brought into Christ at the cross.
Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf. The New Test starts with Acts 2, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Read the letters if Paul, James & Peter (and keep in mind Romans actually starts with 3:24). God bless!
Unlearned Christians preach... "The wages of sin is eternal life." This puts them in league with Satan who said, 'You will *not* surely die." Furthermore, the translators of English Bibles used the concept of living past death in a hell by adding to the translations the Greek Mythology promoted by Plato since around 400 BC. czcams.com/video/8p2ZL0aszZc/video.html Indeed, the Pharisees believed in everlasting life after death as in Lk.16:19-31, as do today's unlearned Christians. Christ was using the belief system held by the Pharisees against them. The biggest heresy espoused by unlearned Christians is, they teach Christ is *not* risen. They do this in their false gospels when they preach a hell exists where sin meets judgment... for Christ to pay for sin completely and for a hell to be where sin receives the wages of eternal torment, Christ can not ever be raised because unlearned Christians preach hell is forever... the debt to sin is never satisfied by fallen man nor Christ who fails to pay his sins for him. There's more to this heresy of a hell, but for now, this explanation is enough, so be faithful and do your homework, Christians.
This was a parable relating to the rich being kind to the less fortunate -it is not a prediction of eternal punishment.
@@LordUhtred1 You're believing Satan who told our first parents... "You will *not* surely die." This countered the decree of God who said first... "You will *surely* die." With this from Satan, so many, many unlearned Christians use this parable as a proof of hell, which is Greek Mythology concocted largely by Plato. Ignorance is bliss. Nonetheless, your post exposes your belief in eternal life for *all* people, saved and lost alike. By so doing, I'm commanded by God to set the record straight, Eph.5:11 ( I think )
One other comment, when Jesus used quotes like, smoke rising, gnashing of teeth, where the worm dies not, exedra, Jesus use this language out of the Old testament to make his message to his audience, and they understood exactly what he was talking about, which had nothing to do with the afterlife.
After reading 2nd Corinthians chapter 5. I am beginning to believe in salvation for all.
Salvation is for all, if you receive it (John 1:12, 3:16-17)
Genuine question, if that is true then why would anybody choose to do the right thing? What reason would one have for changing their ways and walking from sin?
@@AshtonStands4Awesome Don't expect a logical answer from people who refuse to see what's in front of them and want to continue to living in their sin.
, why do people believe that if you agree with hyper-grace, you're going to just sin your life away? I find it the contrary, being thankful for the cost of my salvation and that the cross reconciled us to the Father through Christ. It is about a relationship with the Trinity, a true relationship. I do not need to fear that my behavior keeps God away from me, or that one little slip and I'm hell bound. Scripture says we are seated in heavenly places in Christ if we can lose our salvation heaven must be like a popcorn machine with spiritual beings popping in and out of heavenly places as they sin and repent. The Bible says we were all reconciled to God through Christ, that's everybody, all have been reconciled. The cross paid for every sin mankind will ever do past, present, and future. That gift makes me love the Father and I have no desire to live a lawless life, if one does then they truly didn't grasp the true meaning of grace.
@@Badmoose64 Never said everybody will sin their life away if you believe in hyper-grace: it's just the most logical conclusion. I think you think that most people think the same way you do regarding this stuff. But hyper-grace will virtually always lead to sinning against God continually and still believing yourself to be saved. I agree with everything you've said. I just don't agree that most people who posit the hyper-grace movement have your way of thinking, friend.
You're absolutely right he'll come from a pagan Source there is no hell in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation Jesus never used the word hell he used the word Gahanna the same as in the Old Testament the valley of Gaben Hunnam the valley on the southside of Jerusalem the city dump where all the mess was burned there is no hell from Genesis to revelation he'll came in through a pagan source it is the ostadian doctrine and we've been preaching it for the last sixteen hundred years it's time we stopped
So then wat do you think happens to non believers or the ones not saved wen they pass into eternity?
@@KSSBG I hear you....try correction in the length and severity to gain the desired results....which are purging, purifying, breaking, tempering, reconciliation, and redemption.....more or fewer stripes right from the Lord's mouth speaking of punishment but not one size fits all. The Bible never states that Jesus died to save anyone from hell....but what it does say is..."Who gave Himself for us THAT HE MIGHT DELIVER US FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD...Galatians 1 : 4...no hell there. And even the King James Bible....The wages of sin is death....not hell...and the soul that sinneth shall die...and no hell there either. How can the fire that saves as if by fire be the fire that tortures as our God is a consuming fire. Talking about correction....Sodom did not go to hell but into captivity....Ezekiel Chapter 16...for how long, as long as it takes! And again, in the not so inerrant and infallible KJV....Jude 7...Sodom suffering the vengeance of eternal fire when the fire has been out for centuries....proper translations is age during fire. Take care and keep on keeping on and you will. GOD IS GOOD AND HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER!
@@joedhall3424 what about Matthew 25 46... Eternal punishment..
@@KSSBG the word for everlasting there is aion which means age-long and perishing could also be seen as an everlasting punishment
@@AllInForYah no proof of that.
That's right, and all those passages Jesus was not talking about the afterlife but the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem, so Jesus told them it was better to enter into their life with one limb or one eye than wind up dead and being cast into the valley of. Ghenna.
Great video! Thanks for sharing.
Choose Who to believe. I'd choose God'w Word.
41Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:41-46).
8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than [f]to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. Matthew 18:8
Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:45,46
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. II Thessalonians 1:5-10
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 7
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 14:9-11
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 and in verses 14 & 15
*"I'd choose God'w Word."* You are a liar, Emilie. You hate God's word. For example, you just believe half of John 3:16. You hate the other half. Why is that?
✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not _*_PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH_** [ "apollumi" - be utterly destroyed ]* _but have everlasting life._ (John 3: 16, KJV)
@@IsaacNussbaum Interesting how you skip the part right after that says, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Nurse Emilie is correct.
@@user-md7uc5tx6b It seems to me that rather than nullifying vs. 16, vs. 18 augments and complements it. ✴ _he who is believing in him is not judged_ (i.e. separated), but he who is not believing hath been judged* (i.e. separated) already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God._ (YLT)
Strong's 2919 _"krínō"_ - properly, to separate (distinguish).... (~HELPS Word-studies)
@@IsaacNussbaum "For the time is coming when people will not endure sounda teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" Congratulations, whether intentional or not, you're doing the work of Satan. You're a univeralist. I can't expect anything different.
@@IsaacNussbaum Can't expect correct exegesis from someone who believes in annihilationism.. May God open your eyes before it's too late.
"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."
How is God to deal with those who actively hate Him, even after being shown why they are wrong to do so?
We can conjecture that He would extinguish their awareness, or take away their warped mindset.
Would Dawkins wish to have his essence modified so he would then be changed into a being which loves God?
*"How is God to deal with those who actively hate Him...."* Actually, the Bible answers that question. The unsaved will "perish," i.e. be "utterly destroyed."
✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish_ [ "apollumi" - be utterly destroyed ] _but have everlasting life._ (John 3: 16, KJV)
I first heard this through Chris Date about 5 years ago! It surprises me that the only passage that seems to indicate eternal conscious torment is Revelation 20. A book full of prophetic symbolism. And this is followed up by Rev 21, where it says there is no more sin, suffering or death! So even Revelation clarifies that they will be no more, or cease to exist. The rest of the bible states that death is the punishment for sin. Going all the way back to Genesis. The day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die! Old Testament prophets say that the wicked will be no more. Jesus said 'they shall not PARISH, but have eternal life.'
The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life. Do not fear man who can destroy the body, but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell!
Everyone is saved.
Actually, nobody is saved yet. When Jesus comes again, He will bring salvation "to those who are waiting for him."
✴ _Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him._ (Hebrews 9: 28; NIV)
Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The word eternal in the above verse is the Greek word aiōnion, it means eternal. In Revelation 14:11 it says, "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” In Revelation 20 we find this, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER... Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. In Daniel 12:2, “…and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth (the dead) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The words everlasting in this verse come from the Greek word ō-w-lām. It means eternal. You say only God is eternal, yes with no beginning, BUT God Himself promises eternal life to all who will trust in Jesus. AND as the scriptures above prove, He promises eternal suffering to all who refuse Christ. The soul that sin shall surely die; this is a reference to the second death, which the Bible clearly says is the Lake of Fire. AND again, as stated above involves eternal "torment." You are right when you say ONLY those who trust in Christ will receive eternal life, but those who reject Christ will receive their reward; eternal suffering in the Lake of fire. Would a God of Love send the unrepentant sinner to hell? In Hebrews 10:26-36 it says, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God...For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." You said that their smoke rises forever and NOT their torment, but you know that is not true, it says, "the smoke OF THEIR TORMENT rises forever." You say death in the bible means a state of unconsciousness. Not according to Jesus. He talks of Lazarus and the rich man dying and both lift up their eyes and find themselves in a state of FULL consciousness. Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, BUT the rich man, by his own words in torment in flames. You also said the person who dies isn't aware of anything, the rich man in flames said, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus over to me that he might dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue for I am in torment in these flames." Look, I wish there was no eternal Hell, it breaks my heart to think of people going there for eternity (i have family and friends who have not come to christ) but the Bible as I have demonstrated above has a lot to say about ETERNAL punishment in the Lake of Fire. Think of the story of Uzzah. God had told the Israelites to move the Ark of the Covenant. They were instructed to put it on an oxcart and move it to a particular location. God earlier had stated that "No one but the Levites were allowed to EVER touch the Ark." Well in this particular Bible account, the ox stumbled and the cart tipped and the Ark was about to fall, BUT Uzzah WHO was NOT a Levite, reached out his hand and saved the Ark from possible damage. Did God commend Uzzah for saving the Ark? NO! the Bible says, "The anger of God flared up and killed Uzzah on the spot." The moral of the story; God wants us to obey HIS WORD, and not do or believe what we think is right. Re-read the above verses and ask yourself, do these really say God will not let the person who rejects Christ suffer in hell, but will simply put them out of existence?
You have no clue what you are talking about.
Jesus clearly tells us that those who reject Christ will be destroyed. In many places in the bible it says the wicked are no more, or perish. You have to try really hard to make clear verses support eternal torment , you cannot without making the bible seem contradictory. Also Hebrews 10:26-36 is not about LOSING our salvation. The context is that Hebrews was written to born again Jews who had reverted back to animal sacrifices. Eternal life is secure and can never be lost. Jesus taught it, also Paul and John ..Here are bible verses you should prayerfully consider.
Hebrews 10: 14 For by one offering He has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified.
John 10:28-29
John 6:37-40
John 3 FOUR times Jesus clearly says NONE will perish who believe in Him but will have eternal life. FOUR times.
Ephesians 1
@@kimwestwood8840 Reject Christ? Explain to me how someone can reject Christ?
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 Your youtube name suggests you know the true gospel. It should be obvious to anyone who knows the truth. Islam, the false Christ of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons ( LDS), RCC, all eastern religions . And the many atheists in the world and those who have no beliefs or care about the after life. The bible is full of examples but the obvious ones are the Jewish leaders who crucified Jesus.
My beliefs have evolved on some subjects since the 1950s but, on this subject, they aren’t much different than they were then. For people who prefer to believe the popular concept of what hell is, there isn’t any reason to read further but information such as is presented in this video is likely to encourage some people to reexamine the concept of hell that is ubiquitous in the United States (and probably in the entire English speaking world).
Nobody has ever persuaded me that there is a place under the earth where the finally impenitent writhe in exquisite agony in perpetuity. If I had ever been persuaded that such a doctrine could reasonably be derived from the Bible, I would have rejected the Bible and the God of the Bible.
Before I was in my teens, my parents taught me how to use marginal references and concordances to study the Bible for myself. I didn’t get an unabridged Strong’s Concordance until a few decades later but, according to my Strong’s, the word “hell” in the King James translation is translated from one Hebrew word and three Greek words.
In the King James translation:
The Hebrew word sheol is translated as hell 31 times, as pit 3 times and as grave 31 times.
In Genesis 37:35, Jacob - a man of God - is said to have gone to sheol.
In Numbers 16:30 & 33, wicked men are said to have gone to sheol.
In Psalm 89:48, all men are said to go to sheol.
There are three Greek words translated as hell:
1: hades (This seems to be the Greek word with the meaning most similar to the Hebrew word sheol.)
2: geenna (sometimes transliterated into English as gehenna)
3: tartaroo (sometimes transliterated into English as tartarus)
Geenna is a Greek spelling of the Hebrew words which mean Valley of Hinnom.
Tartaroo is used only once in the Bible - II Peter 2: 4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:”
In this passage, the Greek word, tartaroo, is about a place where the angels that sinned are delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment, i.e. until the judgment or until the executive phase of the judgment.
Most of the English-speaking people in the western Europe and the United States, if they read the bible for themselves at all, tend to read it “backward”. They read the Gospels and the Epistles first, using definitions they consider “traditional” because they are the definitions they have been taught. Many of those “traditional” definitions entered ostensibly Christian theology either directly from Greek philosophy or indirectly as some of those Greek ideas had been transmitted to Roman culture. (Some Greek concepts may have been borrowed from earlier Persian philosophy.)
In recent decades, there has been an increasing interest in examining the Bible from the perspectives of Hebrew culture. Which is helpful when trying to understand the Christians of the first century A.D. most of whom had read the Hebrew Bible FIRST.
Now try to imagine the perspective of Hebrews (or other people who read the Hebrew Bible before they read the Gospels, the Epistles and the Apocalypse). Before the influence of other cultures began to influence the Hebrews’ interpretation of their own Bible, there was no textual evidence that the Bible writers ever intended the word sheol to mean anything other than a place of rest, silence, secrecy, darkness, sleep or corruption.
If Daniel 12:2 (“some [shall awake] to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt”) is understood as a reference to the resurrections mentioned in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 (first resurrection) and Revelation 20:4 (first resurrection) and Revelation 20:5 first part (second resurrection), there is nothing in the language or context of Daniel 12:2 to suggest that “shame and everlasting contempt” has anything to do with a place of perpetual fire.
Most of the biblical references that mention the use of fire to punish the finally impenitent can just as easily be understood as an event rather than as a place - the event being when, after the second resurrection (at the close of the millennium), the finally impenitent compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: (I take this to mean they attempt to attack the city) and fire comes down from God out of heaven, and devours them. (Revelation 20:9) I understand this to be the lake of fire mentioned in verses 10, 14 and 15.
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet...” (Malachi 4:3)
In Revelation 20:14, the event of verse 9 is called the second death. Even death itself is destroyed in this lake of fire. (Verse 14) Which means that either Malachi 4:3 and Revelation 20:14 cannot be taken literally or the biblical references to eternal fire cannot be understood as fire that keeps on burning without consuming what is being burned.
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7) This seems to indicate that it is the effects of the lake of fire that are eternal - not that the fire is eternal. Sodom isn’t still burning now.
The concept of a supreme being who tortures people far beyond the pain they have caused to others is totally antithetical to my concept of justice.
On the other hand, I find it easy to love a God who doesn’t even punish people when they die without repenting but waits until after they are resurrected and they again demonstrate the depth of their depravity.
Thanks, will read later..
So it’s easy to love a God who doesn’t punish people for their sins, murder, rape, theft etc. But not easy to love a God who is righteous and holds us accountable for are choices? Hmm interesting statement. How about a God who says you chose not to be in a relationship with me by rejecting me so therefore go and be separated from me as you desire. How could there be free will if God just forces everyone into a relationship with him even though they have chosen to reject him? Your ideology seems cherry picked to fit your idea of a God you can love not the God of the Bible.
@@splocal If you formulated your reply after reading only the first two paragraphs of my post, it would be easy to understand your reply.
On the other hand, the fire that comes down from God out of heaven and devours the impenitent (Revelation 20:9), the lake of fire (verses 10, 14 & 15) and the wicked someday being ashes under the soles of the redeemed (Malachi 4:3) certainly seems to me to indicate that the creator intends to punish unrepentant people proportional to the suffering they have caused others.
Why would you misrepresent what I wrote as meaning I believe God doesn't punish people for their sins?
Very well written! So what's your belief on who goes to Hell? Do you get a "second chance"?
@@rogermetzger7335 I beleived in hell until I was born again at nearly 30 years old, then it didn't ring true in my spirit anymore and started noticing all the times where it says 'mortal man' and also 'destruction'
I believe the condemnation spoken of in scripture is in the mind of mankind as they believe they are enemies of god. Fear has torment and perfect love casts out fear. Hell and fear are the same thing and brings that condemnation. Jesus never condemned anyone
Thankyou. A very intelligent well thought out video
Still, I think much gets lost between Greek to English...another word for Everlasting is "since the beginning"
I do appreciate and agree with this view, but have wondered how we can reconcile revelation 20:10? That is the toughest one for me 🤔
Revelation 20: 10 does not refer to humanity as a whole, Jake. As we see below, it refers to just three beings, the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.
✴ _And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever._ (Revelation 20: 10; KJV).
It’s my understanding that the beast and the false prophet are people. How do you understand it?
*The Beast*
► "... this beast was designed to represent the Roman empire; for thus far both ancients and moderns, Papists and Protestants, are agreed:" (Benson Commentary)
► "The beast here is evidently a symbol of some power or kingdom that would arise in future times." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)
► "... here the one beast expresses the sum-total of the God-opposed world power…. (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)
► [The Beast] is the power of the world which is directed towards the persecution of Christians. (Pulpit Commentary)
The wicked receive the second death to be burned to ashes and out of existence
Believers receive eternal life
Sounds like something hitler would do
Re YT.. Where is the good news of Jesus Christ in what you believe.. His mercy and grace 🤔
Rev 2:11 Now, listen up with your inner ears. Hear with understanding what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia: the individual who 1continues to see their triumph mirrored in mine [their co-seatedness with me in the throne room], is 2most certainly not threatened by any 3contradiction to their true likeness; there is nothing to fear 4in the second death. (The word 1nikoon, is the Present Active Participle Nominative, form of the verb nikao, to emphasize a continual or habitual victory. Then the double negative, οὐ μὴ ἀδικηθη 2ou mey, plus the verb, 3adikeō, meaning unrighteous; out of sync with likeness - with a, negative and dikeo, two parties sharing likeness - adikeythey is the Aorist Subjunctive form, meaning a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. The Preposition, ἐκ [4ek, mostly pointing to source, but here used for the agent or instrument] τοῦ θανάτου τοῦ δευτέρου the second death.
So, in context of the previous verse [Rev 2:10], "You have no need to fear anything you might suffer at any time", the Second Death is not to distract from the once and for all death that Jesus died, but to endorse it. In the lake of fire, Death and Hades are eradicated from memory. The first death is the once and for all death that Jesus died, representing the global death of humankind. Jesus' death took mankind's death in Adam, out of the equation. The idea of the Second Death has to do with the fact that the revelation of the full extent of everyone’s inclusion in the death of Jesus, has not yet dawned on some - so it will take a crisis, even their own death, to immediately engage them with the symbolic cleansing [from their doubts, ignorance and unbelief] represented by the lake of burning sulphur, purifying like in a furnace, separating the gold from the dross-mindsets. This is the ultimate awakening to the success of the cross - the realizing that even Death and Hades itself died in Jesus' death. It is indeed the death of Death. Rev 20:14. See my notes on The Lake of Fire and the Second Death at the end of Rev 19.
But here, specifically in Smyrna's case, the intensity of their persecution is neutralized by their realizing that gold is never threatened by fire.
Remember the One talking is he who said, I am the Living One; I died and now, see, here I am alive unto the ages of the ages and I have the keys wherewith I have disengaged the gates of Hades and death. Rev 1:18. Also Heb 9:25-28.
He thus broke the spell of the supposed claim of judgment and death over the Adamic race. The significance of the implications of Jesus’ death cannot be exaggerated. It reaches into the entire past, present and future of human history.
As representative of the human race, Jesus Christ fulfilled mankind’s destiny with death and judgment. [1Cor 15:3-5, Rom 4:25, Acts 17:30, 31.] Note: Jesus did not come to condemn the world. The Father judges no one for he has handed over all judgment to the Son, who judged the world in righteousness.)
The Mirror Study Bible (app.mirrorword.net)
People are sadly mistaken. God sends no one to hell. People go there on their own volition because their minds and desires is a vibrational match for hell.
Well I've been told that if you don't have a person dunk you in water, you cannot receive God's forgiveness and you will go to hell. Because apparently god is too weak to save anyone unless water is involved.
Huh I’ve never heard this particular viewpoint of eschatology. I definitely don’t believe in eternal hell/eternal conscious torment but never heard that Jesus was quoting people when he talked about hell. Very interesting 🤔.
Well just because that you say you don't believe in hell that doesn't change the word of God and it doesn't change God's mind and it doesn't change one scripture verses just because you say that you don't believe in hell.
I could just as easily reverse the argument on you and it would be equally valid.
@johnpeshoff1768 and what is that going to for you? Absolutely Nothing, and you are just going by your own opinion, and your words are no match for God because his words is final and you can't argue against God because you are not going to win my friend but you will lose and you will end up in hell forever and ever and ever so you ain't Nothing but a powerless human being that's filled up with foolish pride is all you are.
Careful because the bible says that in the last days ppl
Will not endure sound doctrine and will give into doctrines of demons. Jesus spoke about outer darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth
What exactly are the doctrines of demons? The immediate context gives an idea of the teachings to look out for: “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer” (1 Timothy 4:2-5). According to this passage, we should not follow any person or group that forbids marriage or that places restrictions on certain foods. Any person or group that says holiness comes through a select diet or complete sexual abstinence is lying.
Eternal torment shouldn’t be a problem if you’re warned over and over about it right? I mean, we make the choice to rebel against God and we get paid for our work.
*"Eternal torment shouldn’t be a problem if you’re warned over and over about it right?"* That might be true if...if...we were warned. But the Bible nowhere warns of eternal conscious torment.
What about revelations? It clearly says that ALL liars will be cast in to the lake of fire. And the smoke of their TORMENT will go up FOREVER.
Yes, that says the smoke goes up forever. It does NOT say that the torment goes on forever.
Origenist heresy.
Matthew 25:
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Nothing in that passage proves ECT. At most, it says that the fire itself is everlasting. Hell is part of God's loving plan; it is corrective and temporary.
Origin was based
What we need to know about ourselves from God's Word and our only hope of being justified before a Holy and righteous God: [WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE IN OURSELVES: Mk. 7:20-23 And he (Jesus) said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things (sins) come from within, and defile the man.] [WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR: Rom. 3:10-28 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his (God's) sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Joh. 3:16 For God so loved the world (us), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh. 14:6 Jesus said to him (us), I am the way (salvation), the truth (assurance), and the life (eternal): no man comes to (God) the Father, but by me (God the Son). Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:]
There are 2 different kinds of people when it comes to you hearing about this torment. There are the ones who did not know they were spreading lies (they misunderstood the Bible) and there are the wicked ones who like to tell people they are going to go to Hell and suffer unimaginably and with no planned end.
It is abuse to use the threat of hell to control a child.
The Harrowing of Hell means past, present, and future any soul who repents, even in Hell, will be saved.
Yet, in hellish NDEs, where minutes can be months, viable brain cells can be found in brains at autopsy 9 hours later is a near-eternity in a hellish torment which no amount of effort can free you. Yet, turning, even then, to Christ can save you.
Very clear presentation.
What of Jude 3? How do you see the word delivered? The faith once delivered to the saints. And Philippians 1:29? How do you see the word granted? It has been granted unto you, not only to believe on Christ, but also to suffer on his behalf. Are not these part of “every good and perfect GIFT comes from above.” ??? Is not Faith then a perfect gift God gives? How can a blind, dead, lost, ugly, ignorant person get faith? Can they drum it up on their own? We are blinded by the god of this world. We were lost until the good shepherd finds us. We were dead in trespasses ( outward manifestation of inner sin) and sins ( wrong mentality or perceptions of God- falling short of his Genius mind) . So I say the only way we get awakened to truth ( metanoia) ( repentance) is if it is given to us at the moment God chooses for us. In fact you may or may not see this as truth, but that is part of His Story ( God’s drama unfolding). My awakening was around the year 2015. I was shaken by a question my daughter asked me. “Dad, so if you would not send me to hell for sinning the rest of my life, then you must love me more than God does, no?” Got me searching for answers because I couldn’t believe in a God who tortures any longer. That was age 51 for me. Almost 60 now … so God did not choose for me to know full truth all at once. Bit by bit he unveiled like an onion skin many of the so called truths in religion, politics, science, etc. were all half truths. Usually nothing is totally wrong.. it is veiled, partial truth. That is j how we are blinded to it. “Brainwashed saints.”
It is by the grace of God the Father that our eyes are opened to truth, we see our sins against God with a broken heart and repent. That is the moment WE find Jesus. God always knows where everyone is. It is us that is blind till we "see" the spiritual reality of life and death ..The role of the " Good Shepherd" takes over the moment we are born again. As you said we do as Christians learn as we grow. I have been saved over 30 years and had to unlearn much of the doctrine I picked up in the Pentecostal church . Today it is reformed theology, and Calvinism that are enemies to the true gospel and the biblical Jesus .
rev 22 provides the best evidence that the lake of fire is forever
You have many scriptures about the wicked being no more , they perish. The lake of fire is eternal yes, but WHO gives eternal life? Regardless of our beliefs on this topic, we need to examine ourselves to make sure we are saved. This is not a salvation issue.
@@kimwestwood8840 outside the new jerusalem are non believers it says so that shows the lake of fire is forever
Which of his books is he referring to here?
Boomer Catholicism was frightening enough, but its continual infatuation of hell made us Catholic kids petrified of God. That visceral fear of God lasted a lifetime, and caused immense mental trauma.
9¶And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
This man is a false teacher
Dude the total victory of Christ or a universalist did a video on the verses you're talking about and the word aion and aionios.
Why be saved if there's no consequences?
there are consequences
being separated from God is horrifying to me because of what He represents
Death is the result of not being saved. If we are born again we are secure in Jesus
Because, Jesus is life, he fulfills the empty spot in our souls. It's relationship with God that satisfies and only him.
ECT is not logically coherent--it asserts infinite punishment for finite sin, a complete impossibility for a loving God. Various forms of annihilationism are coherent but contradict scripture. Are we to interpret every knee shall bow every tongue confess to mean only the small percentage of humanity that enter through the narrow gate?
Your question intrigued me, Michael, and so I checked six or eight commentaries on that passage in Philippians 2. It turns out that a literal translation casts the passage in a slightly different light and makes it easier to understand. (For me, at least.) Here it is from the Literal Standard Version:
_9 for this reason, also, God highly exalted Him, and gave to Him a Name that [is] above every name, 10 that in the Name of Jesus every knee MAY bow-of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth- 11 and every tongue MAY confess that Jesus Christ [is] LORD, to the glory of God the Father._
In other words, men now have a name in which they may/can/should pray...Jesus.
Jews were not always opposed to borrowing ideas outside of Judaism to incorporate into their theology or at least influence their thinking. The Old Testament itself admits that Jews sometimes slept with those outside of the tribe. This is not a wholesale criticism, but just an honest observation.
Also I think it's worth keeping in mind that Judaism in Old Testament times was very ethnocentric and sometimes engaged in warfare with their neighbors. The belief in ECT for their military enemies would have been very attractive at that time. Again, not necessarily criticizing Jews, but just making an observation.
Good talk i think you are right on most of what you say.But i wonder if you have read all of lsaiah not only part of it???
So many problems with this. How does he claim that it's hyperbole? And why couldn't Jesus be using the prophets (as he often did) to speak of a spiritual reality?
This seems like he is reaching to try to read a meaning into the words of Jesus, because the idea of eternal torment is an unpleasant one.
Since the lost are not going to receive eternal life (are not going to live forever), I don't see how they can be tortured forever.
✴ _He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see (everlasting) life; (John 3: 36a; KJV)
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You might want to read what is written in Matthew 25:41 and repent of this heresy.
Its just like it says, the lake of fire wasn't created for humankind, it was created for the devil and his angels but if we reject Jesus then we side with satan and end up sharing the same fate. God doesn't want that, people willingly choose to reject Him and His mercy and grace and that gives Him no choice, it leaves no room for grace and mercy because it was rejected. We'd all like to believe what makes us comfortable but God has said His thoughts aren't our thoughts and His ways aren't our ways. Praise God!
Dude watch the total victory of Christ and his series on the word Aion and how this verse doesn't talk about everlasting fire
Yeah, I only have some strugle to understand Matthew 10:28.
I lean towards not believing in an eternal hell but I think your premise is pretty flawed in the sense that you are failing to understand the idea that Jesus quotes the OT prophets to EXPAND the depth of the revelation in those words.
Not many people know this but Moses and the prophets didn't have anything to say about a place of torment. In fact there is nothing anywhere in the O.T. about a place of eternal torment. What Moses and the prophets taught is that dead people are unconscious. ✴ _His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish_ (Psalms 146: 4, KJV)
Jesus did teach about an eternal hell.
HE said that if you foot causes you to sin cut it off , it is better to enter life lame than enter hell whole , where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.
O.K. Jesus taught about Gehenna where the *FIRE* is not quenched and the *WORM* does not die. So what? What is the big deal about unquenchable fire and never-dying worms?
I will answer the question. Unquenchable fire and never-dying worms are not a big deal. A dead person does not care if his corpse is destroyed by one, or the other, or both.
✴ _"They will go out and observe the CORPSES [i.e. dead bodies] of those who rebelled against me, for the maggots that eat them will not die, and the fire that consumes them will not die out. All people will find the sight abhorrent."_ (Is. 66: 24; NET)
Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 speaks of Unquenchable Fire… for chaff that clearly burned up. He mentions Isaiah 66:24 in the passage, a verse with imagery of dead bodies.
Annihilationism is true.
Matthew 28:10 would disagree with you completely. "And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus' words. You're teaching falsehood. He was not quoting OT prophets.
I don't understand how Matthew 28: 10 contradicts conditional immortality. I use that verse to _support_ conditional immortality.
Help,
Can anytime provide sources to further look into from which this gentleman is sharing his knowledge please?
Thank you
I have a book in my library that does a deep dive into the subject. It is long (almost 500 pages) and so, is not everybody's cup of tea. If you put _"conditional immortality"_ in the CZcams search bar lots of videos will come up, both for and against. And, if you want to ask me anything I will try to answer the best that I can.
BTW, the book that I mentioned is _"The Fire That Consumes"_ by Edward Fudge. I highly recommend it.
@@IsaacNussbaum I don't mind if a book is long, but is it relatively easy to understand language?
@@AshtonStands4Awesome Whether the book is easy to understand or not depends on someone's reading comprehension level. I'm just a high school graduate and I found it to be readable. It is not a technical book but, rather, is written for the man or woman in the street. There are a number of CZcams videos, short and long, of him discussing the book. I have watched some of them and he comes across as a humble and likeable guy.
Dude search up the video Aion by the total victory of Christ he talks about the verses talking about eternal separation and points them TOO UNIVERSALISM and why they don't point to ETERNAL FIRE but age abiding castigation or correction
5Solas and the Tulip
are you a 7day Adventist?
*"are you a 7day Adventist?"* Mr. Giles is a former Southern Baptist minister. He now promotes universalism in books, lectures, podcasts, etc.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25 46
There is still proof that there are people in hell right now.
Since "Sheol" and "Hades" both mean the grave, you are right. People are in hell (the grave) right now.
Mathew 25:46 unless you allegorize scripture which is dangerous.
I don't see anything in Matthew 25: 46 (below) which contradicts the video, Terry. Please explain.
✴ _“And these will go away into _*_eternal punishment,_*_ but the righteous into eternal life.”_ (Matthew 25: 46, ESV)
✴ [the unsaved] _will suffer the punishment of _*_eternal destruction…._* (2 Thessalonians 1: 9, ESV)
@@IsaacNussbaum Dude search up the video Aion by the total victory of Christ he talks about those verses and why they don't point to ETERNAL FIRE but age abiding castigation or correction
@@user-te1si1mo6l *"...search up the video Aion...."* Speaking only for myself, I am not willing to let "aiōnion" (αἰώνιον) nullify "olethron" (ὄλεθρον).
In my last comment it didn't print right that's the Augustine Doctrine we've been taking it for 1600 years it's time we stopped
Viewers, would you be surprised to learn that the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts do not contain the word "hell" or any word which means hell. If there was a hell, the Bible would say so, wouldn't it?
Sheol is not hell.
Hades is not hell.
Gehenna is not hell.
The Lake of Fire is not hell.
Where is the Rich Man in the parable about Lazarus after he dies? What word is used?
@@glenliesegang233 The Greek word in Luke 16: 23 is "hadē." That is a form of the word "hadés." "Hades" is the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament "Sheol."
What is going on with the story of Lazaras?
That is a fair question. Let's take a look.
✴ _…“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,_ (John 11: 11-14; NIV)
We see here that Lazarus died and became unconscious (he fell "asleep"). Later, in John 11: 38-44, Jesus raised him back to life and Lazarus became conscious again. Finally, Lazarus died a second time and is now dead...all the way dead...pending the resurrection.
Thanks but I meant the parable story with Lazarus and the rich man.
@@lionbeatscobra Oh. O.K. In one of those stories Jesus says that the dead are unconscious (John 11). In the other He says that the dead are conscious (Luke 16). We are obliged to accept and believe _both_ stories. In your view, what is the best way to reconcile that seeming contradiction?
I'm just trying to understand what's going on in that parable. Is the rich man in "hell" or eternal torment, is this just an analogy, metaphor, etc. true story?
@@lionbeatscobra First, do you agree that the John 11 story and the Luke 16 story appear, at first glance, to contradict each other?
I believe that if this topic is talked about in a video the gospel should also be shared. Our salvation is much more important than a non salvation issue
what about the Wrath of God in john 3:36 ? is this a bad translation ?
Michael Genova Have you found your answer?
If you reject God, you will not see life, and the wrath of God remains on you. It never said anyone will reject God eternally. If anyone were that irrational, God would have never created them in the first place. Also it directly contradicts Philippians 2:10,11. You can´t be rejecting God and at the same time be bowing your knee and declaring that Jesus is Lord.
So they will not see life until they do accept Jesus. And the wrath of God cannot remain on someone eternally because it would contradict Psalm 103:9 which says He will not stay angry forever. If God stayed angry forever with even just one person, God would be consumed by the sin of bitterness.
It's the right translation." For God's wrath remains on them"....they will twist it and say..." Yeah His wrath of "annihilation" will remain. People don't want to believe that we all deserve eternal damnation even though Jesus clearly says it
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25 46
Put your Trust into Jesus with the weight of your existence.
@@ViolinistJeff Aramaic bible Matthew 25:46 ??? ... What do you say about this
@@KSSBG The Aramaic Bible is a blatant, satanic, pagan lie of a translation in Mt 25:46. It is not "torture" but "punishment" ( _kolasis_ in Greek) The NAS Exhaustive Concordance says that _kolasis_ (St. 2851) originates from _kolazó_ (St. 2849), which means “to lop” or “prune.”
Unlike many universalists, I do believe that the life and the punishment here are both eternal, but the "eternal punishment" is the "cutting off" and permanent annihilation of the angels of the devil which is contrasted with all people. All people are saved.
Lack of understanding symbols and typologyinthe OT andnew testamentyou won't now what the scriptures are saying you spor on brother
Matthew 25:46. 46 “And they will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE.” (((( To anyone who does not believe in EVERLASTING conscious TORMENT, please explain why ETERNAL LIFE here means EVERLASTING conscious LIFE but the punishment doesnt????? )))). Please no philosophy, Just answer the question in an honest way. Thank you.
Would you seriously consider the idea that the word "eternal" used in that passage could be translated to mean "pertaining to the future age" if you were presented with a number of solid sources?
@@LoveUnrelenting It is referring to a future time and that would be when eternal life or eternal punishment is going to happen. . You can just tell me why ETERNAL LIFE means everlasting conscious life but ETERNAL PUNISHMENT does not mean EVER LASTING conscious punishment.
@@TRUTHINCHRIST-cw8ke The short answer (that is convincing enough to many universalists anyway) is this:
The verse is not actually referencing whether or not sone people will have everlasting conscious life or everlasting conscious punishment. It is simply stating that some people will enter into life in the age to come and some will be chastised in the age to come. Given a number of other passages, it is not hard to conclude that the life in the age to come continues on into the future ages while the punishment (which is reformatory) does not.
Of course, that is my attempt at a very brief answer. If you look up David Bentley Hart, Ilaria Ramelli, or David Konstan on this issue, you will get a much more detailed and scholarly answer
@@LoveUnrelenting . Well no i dont receive that but what about this scripture.
Matthew 25:41. 41 “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are CURSED, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels!
@@TRUTHINCHRIST-cw8ke It is the same word being translated "eternal"--aiōnion
Lies. Scripture is CLEAR…CHRIST suffered
agony and death to pay your sin debt and keep you from HELL…which was created for Satan and his angels….read REVELATION! The smoke of their TORMENT shall rise FOREVER….Jesus gave the parable of Lazarus and the rich man! Where the worm dieth NOT…GOD CANNOT LIE…
There is NO hell
@@CodyBuchanan700 The demons trembled when Christ came… they were terrified their time of TORMENT had come! Hell was created for Satan, that is their fate. Satan knows his time is short…that is why the end time signs have sped up. . All mankind who do not believe and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour are doomed to Hell… read REVELATION! Your time is short! Today is the acceptable time to be saved says the Lord…He promises NO man tomorrow!
Jesus suffered agony and death to pay for our sins so we can be reconciled back to God. Getting out of hell was just a benefit.
Jesus suffered to free us from sin, not yo free us from this imaginary hell place.
@@webz3589 I strongly suggest you actually READ the Words of Christ who is the TRUTH. Either you are a liar or he is…and he CANNOT LIE… CAPICHE???
What happens to us after we die?
Good question Rachel
Hebrew 9:27 it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
Await the resurrection of all for judgement.I believe all experience the lake of fire for purification...some more than others
@@ttownsupreme2183 , that's what I'm learning.
After we die, we fall asleep (no pain, no regret, no fear, no sadness) and remain sleeping until we are resurrected and judged.
God gave us the parable of Lazrus and the rich man and scripture also tells us that Jesus went to hell to set captives free. It's clear there is a hell after one dies...how long will someone be there in hell is the question. Some think id eternal and some think only for a period of time until the second death where those who didn't receive Gods free gift of salvation goes, the same place where Satan and his demons are sent. Bible says Satan and demons will go there and will be there forever and ever. Is the second death for humans annihilationism? Not sure but one thing I know for sure, Jesus example of the parable of Lazarus and the rich is a spiritual lesson of the after life where we are being warned about and why Jesus came to rescue humanity because hell is what we actually deserve as sinners
Maybe you can clarify something for me. If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal account of a historical event, what does the following verse mean?
✴ _…a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,_ (Ecclesiastes 9: 4-5; NKJV)
Hell is the place where all people spirit will go after separating from their bodies and will wait there until the next stage of God’s plan…it is not a place of torment… Period.
That’s a simple parable where Jesus is trying to teach Jews something
I'm sorry, Brenda, but your answer to my question did not come through. May I impose on you to post it again?
The Bible does not say Jesus went to hell. It says he went to the lower parts of the earth. And the word hades (often translated as hell) in the original language was the place where the dead went. The grave. Not hell. Or the word Gehenna… also often translated to hell. This was a literal place where bodies were burned and sacrificed.
The word hell is a norse word , for the goddess hel of the underworld, it's part of vikings convering to Christianity, jesus used gehena , there is dark and there is light , heaven full of love , the real hell , not the dante inferno , or the greek hades , is the void a blackness of human hate and all that humanity would not let ho of , jesus went there he set the captives free , he has the keys to this void or hell , and he defeated the fallen angel as well, there is always hope , and a new heaven and earth to come, so eternal torment , is not where god punishes people its where people who spirits are full of hate reside , god is love , jesus is love , the holy spirit is love even Gods wraith is a burning love trying to destroy evil to set people free , Keith has an interesting understanding, as a progressive Christian I can accept what he says but also have my own opinion on heaven and hell , not every Christian thinks the same !
Both heaven and hell are not a geographical place, but a state of mind.
Amen. The hell crowd is reprobate IMHO
so where is Hitler going after judgement ? Rev 20:10..
Who is mentioned in Revelation 20: 10? Three immortal spirit beings, the Devil, the Beast, and the false prophet. Anybody else? No, not Hitler, not Pol Pot, not Idi Amin, not your pastor, not anybody else.
@@IsaacNussbaum "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." The scriptures are clear. But you refuse to see.
@@user-md7uc5tx6b _"Revelation 14 is not a final judgment text. It's about judgment upon Babylon."_ (~Professor Rodney K. Duke, PhD) The judgments refer to living humans, on Earth, during the time of the Antichrist. (See also Isaiah 66: 24; Jeremiah 7: 32-33; Revelation 16: 2, 9, 10-11)
@@IsaacNussbaum Believe what you wish - much to your destruction or the people who you "teach." You refuse verse after verse because of cognitive dissonance. May God have mercy on you and open your eyes - because you refuse to see.
@@IsaacNussbaum "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." True faith will always bring works. We're not saved by works - they're merely an outward expression of an inward reality: salvation.
There’s not a reputable seminary in America that would agree with this video. If there is no hell then Calvary was the blunder of the ages.
*"If there is no hell...."* The Hebrew and Greek manuscripts do not contain the word "hell" or any word which means hell. If there was a hell, the Bible would say so, wouldn't it?
Sheol is not hell.
Hades is not hell.
Gehenna is not hell.
The Lake of Fire is not hell.
@@IsaacNussbaum Jesus spoke more about hell then heaven. Outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus says in Matthew 7 describing unbelievers saying “depart from me I never knew you. Jesus taught about the rich man and Lazarus….a “certain man” so not a parable most likely. Jesus clearly taught of a place of eternal conscious torment. On the cross he told the believing pirate malefactor or thief based on translation he’d be with him in paradise. The other man on the other cross did not get that reassurance. If there is no conscious place for unbelievers Jesus died in vain. You must be born again!!
Hebrews 9:27 clearly states it appointed unto a man once to die then after this comes the judgment.
Please take a university level hermeneutics class. You’d be amazed what you can learn when you realize there are actual rules to interpretation.
@@user-ud9og6qm9h *"-**-If--** there is no conscious place for unbelievers...."* There, I fixed it for you.
@@user-ud9og6qm9h P.S. Here is what Jesus _really_ said. He said that unbelievers would be ""utterly destroyed."_ You already believe half of John 3: 16. Are you willing to believe the other half?
✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not _*_PERISH_* [ "apollumi" - be utterly destroyed ] _but have everlasting life._ (John 3: 16; KJV)
@@IsaacNussbaum every soul that ever lived will live for eternity in one of two places
I just find it amusing that random people on the internet think they can exegete Scripture better than the greatest expositors in the last 200 years like Charles Spurgeon, G. Campbell Morgan, Dr Martin Lloyd-Jones, Warren Weirsbe, David Guzik, John MacArthur et al. Annihilation is not taught in the Bible. No Greek New Testament scholar would agree with you. Check your pride. You don’t know how to interpret Scripture better than those guy and I left out many others like J. Vernon McGhee
Matthew Henry from yesteryear and John Warwick Montgomery. Last but not least Robert Dick Wilson who read the New Testament in nine different languages by the age of 25. They all disagree with you based on their proper exegesis of the New Testament. No appeal to authority but an appeal to what they concluded.
Hell is infinite in the sense that it will never end. Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.
YES IT DOES
@@CodyBuchanan700 Did you actually look it up in a Greek concordance? I did. I have always hoped for annihilation for the wicked, but if a person who "went to hell" was annihilated, what does this mean; There is no rest day or night? A soul who was annihilated would not be able to rest or not rest, they would be annihilated. How about the STORY of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that Jesus spoke of Lazarus by name, shows this was NOT a parable or metaphor. AND once again, if you think this story was a parable or metaphor...then for what? How would describing a man saying, "I am in torment in these flames..." indicate annihilation? How about the fact that Revelation 20:13 has "death and Hades (Hell) gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged." If they already died and went to Hades (hell) then how are they judged IF they were annihilated? Answer; they were NOT annihilated. Finally, with all the above explanations on a score of verses, why didn't God just say, "I will annihilate the wicked?
@@Mike-qt7jp it's a parable
@Mike-qt7jp HE DID SAY THAT.
The Soul that sins it shall DIE.
@@CodyBuchanan700 Here is the actual cut and paste from Strongs Concordance for the word translated as "torment" in Revelation 14:9-11: basanizó: to torture Original Word: βασανίζω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: basanizó Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo) Definition: to torture Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves. Notice Strong's does not agree with you.
This is absolute rubbish!!
Read the Gospels!
Read Revelation!
It's all there!!
Get yourself back to right doctrine before it's too late!
Eternity is an awfully long time to be wrong!!
Can you explain why please i'm in the middle of choosing universalism or eternal separation
You're teaching false doctrine. The bible clearly speaks the truth. So, you are saying that Jesus is liar when he clearly explains that there is Hell and eternal punishment. Jesus is the Truth, the way and life. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever. Repent from your false teaching about Hell and self examine yourself. Stop this satanic delusion of annihilation.
*"Stop this satanic delusion of **--annihilation--** eternal conscious torment."* I fixed it for you.
@@IsaacNussbaum So, you're saying that Jesus is a liar when he preached about hell more than salvation. He didn't preach about total annihilation.
@@mpmikeb1290 *"So, you're saying that Jesus is a liar...."* No, that is not what I am saying at all.
@@mpmikeb1290 What am I _really_ saying? I'm glad you asked. I am saying that Jesus never said anything about hell. Not. A. Single. Word.
@@IsaacNussbaum He did really but not as eternal but a place of correction and judgement
Please don't let someone who does not know Jesus of Nazareth personally or have His Spirit to interpret what Jesus meant... please read the last 3 chapters of the book of Revelation (Rev 20:7-15, 21:7-8 & verse 27) to know about the second death & the eternal lake of fire. The fate of all whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life!
Also read Luke 16:19-31 The story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. This wasn't a parable, but a story of the fate of two men who once lived on the earth. One of whom we now know by name!
Hi,
I have some questions on your point of view.
1. The lake of fire "is the second death". If death and Hades are thrown into it, which are not persons but the names of the place of death, what does that mean for them? Does that mean eternal conscious torment? Would it not be logical that the same lake would have the same effect on all things being thrown into it?
2. How can the lake of fire mean eternal torment if it is "death" (the second death)? Death is the end of life. The lake of fire is explained to be the second death. So the question is what does death here mean? Is it a literal death? (just note that the people before the throne are described as "the dead standing before the throne to be judged" - Revelation 20:12-15). It is not possible to die literally if you are dead already. The other option would be a spiritual death, just as Paul explains in Romans 6, Christians die for sin and thus live. Those who have not yet repented have not yet come to live with Jesus. Why do you exclude the option that the second death for those who are judged to be thrown into the lake of fire, is their dying for sin (a second death since it happens after their literal death) and thus come to life? Note, that Revelation says that after the 1000 years the rest will come to life. (Revelation 20:4-5) Since they are dead when being judged, the only option for them to come to life would be through the lake of fire. Interestingly the faithful ones who take part in the first resurrection cannot be harmed by the lake of fire. (Isaiah 33:13-16 God is the fire. The lake symbolizes his presence.) They have already died for sin. So could the lake of fire possibly be God's means of eliminating sin? Death would be thrown into it then, because sin is its sting that needs being eliminated.
3. The story of the rich man and Lazarus: If you say that this describes eternal torment in hell already, you probably have not checked the Greek language. The rich man and Lazarus go to Hades. Hades in Revelation is thrown into the lake of fire. If you say this is a real story, then you claim that there are two places where people are tormented. One is after dying and the second is after judgment. These cannot be the same. Is that your understanding? Will Christians all lie at Abraham's bosom literally after their death? If you deny it, then you would have to acknowledge that also the fire for the rich man would mean something else or was an apocalyptic hyperbole to make a certain point clear. But it was not a description of reality in the sense of saying "This will literally happen to you."
God bless,
Thomas
The rich man and Lazarus was definitely and indeed a parable. Jesus even says everything He spoke to people, other than His disciples at times, was parabolic.
And just so you know, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it says nothing about God not being able to cross that chasm. Ultimately, according to the what the early faith believed and taught, we see that the One telling this parable is the One who has forever crossed this chasm. He is the bridge. So, it seems like what Jesus is actually talking about is that this chasm represents and expresses how no one can reach us in the way that only God can reach us. That no one can quench our thirst except the only One who can quench our thirst. No Abraham, no angel, no man. Only Christ, the center of our hearts.
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,”
Mark 4:11
Saying that the rich man and Lazarus wasn’t a parable is like saying the good Samaritan parable wasn’t a parable😆 Even if these stories are based on true events that actually happened, Jesus is still using them in a parabolic fashion. Which means we still can’t take them word for word as literal. We have to understand what they are speaking to us as a narrative. In fact, that’s actually how we are meant to approach Scripture as a whole first and foremost. We are not meant to read it as a book of historical facts, though there are historical facts and events happening in it. When you learn to read Scripture this way, you actually will begin to see life itself in a totally different fashion. Life is based on narrative and meaning, not fact and phenomena. Though facts are a form of truth, truth is more than fact. Truth transcends fact.
I would recommend watching Jonathan Pageau’s video titled “Symbolic vs. Literal Interpretation of the Bible”. Watch it with a mind willing to learn if you do.
czcams.com/video/l9Ibs67ke6c/video.html
Lazarus and the Rich Man is DEFINITELY DEFINITELY a Parable.It is inconsistent on all accounts regarding salvation and the afterlife to be a real story.Had nothing to do with Heaven or Hell
Heaven was also a pagan idea from Egypt and Greece... So why do you believe in the traditional view of heaven? You can't have your cake and eat it too...
Most universalists don't deny a reality of chastisement for sinners after death. Hell, from our mindset, is God's loving and purifying "fire" to remove all impurities. Heaven is the reality that all people will be immortal with God, whatever and wherever that may be.
So, you think John, who wrote the book of Revelation, was a pagan? Explain what is meant by Rev 14:9-11. (This is just one example.)
Man always thinks they know better than what God’s word has for us. 🤷♂️ (Or do you think the Bible is just fiction, too?).
Let me help you out. The Greek text in verse 9 is in the present tense. The scene being depicted is on Earth, during the Tribulation, not in hell.
✴ _And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand,_ (Revelation 14: 9; Concordant Literal New Testament)
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Yes, the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, three immortal spirit beings will be tormented day and night forever. Does it mention anybody else? No. Does it extend the threat to sinners at large? No.
@@IsaacNussbaumThe beast and the false prophet are humans; and the everlasting punishment extends to all lost people.....Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
@@ricoyochanan Don't change the subject, Rico. Don't go running off to other parts of the Bible. I am calling out your use of Revelation 20: 10 to support ECT. Even if the three entities are human (they aren't; see below), the threat in this verse is confined to them and them alone. That means you misused this verse. Apologize to your readers.
[NOTE: The beast "ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 11: 7; 17: 8) It is demonic, not human.]
[NOTE: These three are spirit beings; the wicked trinity. The Antichrist will be murdered, slain, annihilated, consumed, destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2: 8)]
[NOTE: the false prophet is referred to as "another beast" in Revelation 13: 11-17, 16: 13 and 19: 20]
@@IsaacNussbaum The beast is the antichrist , also called the MAN of lawlessness, he's a human. The false prophet is also a human.
They are demonically possessed, but are not Satan. Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived THEM was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This dovetails perfectively with Jesus' teaching on eternal punishment. Mar 9:48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is NEVER quenched.’Further devastating for annihilationism, is John's words, revealed by JESUS:Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone(he's talking about HUMANS) worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” In light of Scripture, I don't think I'll be apologizing for telling the truth. His word is truth, Joh 17:17 You might want to apologize to the readers for promoting a chief doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses, annihilationism. I'm sure the JW's Watch Tower organization is delighted to see the Christian churches agreeing with their erroneous doctrine.
@@ricoyochanan I am not going to discuss multiple citations at the same time. I am talking about Revelation 20: 10 ONLY! To repeat myself, it makes no difference whether the three figures are human or not. The verse does not _SAY_ that sinners, as a group ,will be tormented forever. If the verse does not _SAY_ that, you can't use it to teach ECT. To do so is dishonest. _"...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death -- death -- death."_ (Rev. 21: 8; KJV)
This is a doctrine of devils
Heresy and dangerous. Why follow Christ then if all will eventually be saved
Why follow God? Because it's good for you. Because it makes you a better person. Of course, some Christians NEED to believe in eternal torment - because that is the only thing stopping them from being hate-filled degenerates.
Re Hulton..
This is not a doctrine of devil's.. but the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We do not "follow Christ", as "we" (me, myself and I) no longer live, but Christ is living in and thru us.
Jesus is the Head of His Body and we are His Body, óne with Him! It's only the carnal mind that still pictures distance and separation.
We share the good news of Jesus Christ with those who still are outside. Not to "safe them from hell", but to awake them with truth. Hades means 'not to see'. We awake them with Truth in order for them to see and hear.
@@eekay5710 Rev 20:10 Satan and the false prophet which is a human
Will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Unfortunately when people are told hell is not eternal we have big problems.
@@joynetwork
Rev 19:19,20
And I saw (past tense) the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was (past tense) captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were (past tense) cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Herewith Rev 20:1-10
verse 10.. The devil, who deceived them, WAS cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Mirror Study Bible.
@@joynetwork
Now where in the Bible do you read that 'Satan and the false prophet is a human' 🤔
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” 2Thessalonians 1:5-10 says, "The Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..." By the way, the word destruction here comes from the Greek word olethros and it means; destruction, death, ruin, doom. So the phrase eternal destruction above means ETERNAL death, ruin, doom. Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement NO REST DAY OR NIGHT makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is supposedly a parable and NOT a story. Even if it is, how does it point to annihilation? “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” Notice the rich man is NOT annihilated but rather in torment in flames. He can feel pain, he can see Abraham and Lazarus afar off, and he can think rationally. In what metaphorical sense does this speak of annihilation?
The greek reads thusly:
Matt25:46 “And these will go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.”
Those words do not exclusively mean “eternal”. It is a temporary term of chastening. A God who subjects his creation toward an eternity of torture is a monstrosity, not a God of eternal love.
@@GabrielKerr Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.
In Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse.
@@GabrielKerr If you look in Strong's concordance, it can mean age BUT it can also mean eternal.
After the resurrection, hades (hell) is eternal. Clear teaching of the NT and Orthodox tradition. It may be that the "gates" of hades are locked from inside - i.e. those there could in theory repent, but in practice cannot bring themselves to do so, because they are hardened in their hatred of God. So they are locked in a prison of their own making. That, however, doesn't make the prison temporary.
It may be that a lot of things are true. How do we know that what you are saying is true?
Oh that old clap trap
Salvation is from the Jews so is hell. Beware hell is real.
Antisemitism, yet another thing to add to the list of bad anti universalist arguments.
The Bible absolutely teaches that the torment of those in the Lake of Fire will be everlasting, just as it teaches that the exaltation of those in the new heaven and earth will be everlasting.
This truth may make some people uncomfortable or sad, but we have no business telling God what his judgment can be, and we certainly have no business bending the Word of God to suit our fragile sensibilities.
God is love and mercy, but in his justice, he is also judgment and punishment.
Those who end in hell deserve to be there, and the punishment they receive, they deserve.
Those in heaven do not deserve to be there.
Their presence is a gracious gift from Jesus, a gift that they did not earn nor deserve.
*"The Bible absolutely teaches that the torment of those in the Lake of Fire will be everlasting,"* The Bible does no such thing.
@@IsaacNussbaum
The elect will exist in the new heaven and earth everlasting.
The non-elect will exist in the Lake of Fire everlasting.
Commuting the sentences of those in hell is an act of grace, and grace is not available to those in hell.
@@ryleighloughty3307 *"The non-elect will exist in the Lake of Fire everlasting."* They will do no such thing.
@@ryleighloughty3307 P.S. Here is what the fire of judgment will do to unbelievers. They will cease to exist. "Not a root or branch will be left to them." ✴ _“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them."_ (Malachi 4: 1, NIV)
@@IsaacNussbaum
Is this literal or figurative?
Why would God extend mercy to those who are deserving of his everlasting wrath?
There is no universalism deal with it.
YES THERE IS
I think what he meant is.
There is no good argument against universalism, deal with it.
This bloke is false! Stay true to Christ!
*"-**-This bloke--** Peter Floyd is false!"* There, I fixed it for you, Peter. No need to thank me.
The thing that bothers me is why can't I stay true to Christ and believe in a different Christian doctrine than you do.
THIS IS A FALSE TEACHING!!!!
Hell is a REAL place of torment that you will go to if you are not saved.
The bible CLEARLY teaches about hell !
Hell is temporary and corrective. If you can prove otherwise, feel free.
@@sciencesociety2919 arabaic bible Matthew 25 46
@@sciencesociety2919 ok Matthew 25 46 in your personal bible...watcha got?
Re Maine.. This indeed is no false teaching at all. Where is the good news of Jesus Christ in what you believe, His mercy and His grace 🤔
Although the word "hell" appears in the Bible, it only was brought in during the time churches decided to have more control over people (fear;💰). That was the perception of many in those day, but the word 'hell' is definitely translated wrong.
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The next paragraph is by DA Taylor from his book EXECUTED to suppress His message:
Hell is a false doctrine.
The doctrine of hell was created by the Catholic Church to scare people into becoming Christians. And the doctrine worked so well, that most Protestant churches added it to their list of doctrines.
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The most common words that are used, are the Hebrew word Sheol & the Greek word Gehenna, Tartaro & Hades. Sometimes Abussos are also used as ref to 'hell'.
SHEOL - this word is mostly used in the OT where 'hell' could be interpretated, but it is only refers to the 'place' where everybody who dies, go. Temporary, only where the bodies were put in 'rest', nót a place of eternal punishment of any negative scare thought. We can also call this place the grave.
People of faith in the Old Test like king David (Ps 49:16 and 88:4), Jacob/Israel (Gen 37:35) and Hiskia (Jes 38:10) knew they were going to this 'place of rest', the grave). Súrely these 3 men never would ended up in the so-called' hell' as we have it in our thoughts!
HADES simply means 'not to see'. Spiritual blindness. Jesus in John 9 to the Pharisees & the man born blind.
Re Maine.. and what do you understand by SAFE 🤔 is it that once we die, we will go either to heaven or hell?
There is no scripture for us "going to heaven". Heaven has come to us.
Both heaven and hell are not a geographical place, but a state of mind.
Jesus has come to SAFE our souls, our thoughts from wrong thinking.
Matt 18:11 - Ampl
For the Son of Man came to save that which was lost.
Matthew 18:11 - NKJV
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
-whích, not who.
Yes, eternal torment is in the Bible. This denialism is just laughable.
Where prove it!
verses please
False teacher. Beware this man.
Pastor Giles says what the Bible says. Does that make him a false teacher in your view?
@@IsaacNussbaum He does not say what the Bible says. Jesus spoke of Hell and said Hell is a real place where some will spend eternity with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
✴ Jesus didn't speak of hell, Michael. The word "hell" is a mistranslation of three Hebrew and Greek words, none of which means a place of eternal conscious torment.
✴ If hell is a real place God should have put a warning about it in the Bible. He didn't.
✴ In the Bible, gnashing represents hatred and/or anger, not pain.The phrase “gnashing of teeth” appears seven times in the Scriptures. None of those times suggests that the gnashing will extend into eternity. (Matthew 8: 12, 13: 42, 13: 50, 22: 13, 24: 51, 25: 30, Luke 13: 28)
@@IsaacNussbaum Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
@@Michael-gp3vl I am very familiar with that passage, Michael. I don't disagree with a single word of it. I believe and accept it in its entirety. I don't understand why you don't.
Jesus himself speaks about Hell and yes it is eternal if your saying it isn’t please repent Jesus even spoke about how it will be in judgement day about the sheep those who are his and those who are the devils those who are the goats. The Sheep will be to his right hand and the goats to his left if anyone wants read Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV but I’m gonna read the part of Jesus speaking in Matthew 25:41-46 NKJV 41. “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘ Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels: 42. for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43. I was a stranger and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44.”Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying,’ Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me, 26. And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” This is what Jesus spoke if you are teaching that Hell and the Lake of Fire isn’t eternal please repent you will be held responsible if you don’t you don’t want to bear the punishment of lying to people. This is exactly why Jesus had to die for our sins on the cross it was so important. Jesus died for our sins on the cross, he was buried, and he rose from the dead on the third day he is alive forever more seated at God the Fathers right hand. Jesus Christ is The Son Of God and God manifest in the flesh. Please do not delete this comment. People need to know the truth God is love but he is also Holy, Just, and good and he must punish sin the wages for our sin is death and eternal separation from God which would be the Lake of Fire. God wants us all to repent and place our faith and truth in Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 6:47 NKJV 47. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. If whoever May read this hasn’t please call out to Jesus he loves you. Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 NKJV Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Romans 10:9 NKJV that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:13 NKJV 13. For “ whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” If you havent please call out to Jesus he loves you.
What's the Greek word for "everlasting"?
This was not a good argument
Hell (Gehenna or the grave, not a fiery torture pit) is not eternal. Only God, and His love, is eternal.
Please watch the video again and LISTEN this time. You missed it. Jesus is not Molech, and God the Father is exactly like Jesus. That settles it.
@@sciencesociety2919 Do you believe in universal restoration? Or do you believe that this fiery hell destroys sinners?