Magic Systems with Rothfuss, Butcher, Wells, Cole, Sykes, Blackmoore - Phoenix Comicon 2014
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- Incredible panel from Phoenix Comicon: June 6th, 2014. "Magic Systems: Urban Fantasy vs. Epic Fantasy" with Jim Butcher, Patrick Rothfuss, Jaye Wells, Myke Cole, Sam Sykes, Stephen Blackmoore.
Filmed by Moses Siregar III with Adventures in SciFiPublishing. His blog: ScienceFictionF....
BABIES! BABIES EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE!
+Krazy Lobster No shit. If you have an infant that you have to carry around. Or a small child that won't be quiet. Do no ruin or a great situation for everyone else. Stay at home!
6 minutes in and they're already debating the specifics of D&D spells. God I love this panel.
Love Jim Butcher so much! He's like, "Yeah, I don't really think about that... I just make Harry miserable....that's it...really" LOL
Authors/Books Referenced
Tolkien: Lord of the Rings
George RR Martin: Game of Thrones
Naomi Novik: Temeraire
Feist: Magician Series
????/???? (Calling of the Shadow? I didn't catch this one)
Terry Goodkind: Sword of Truth
Richard Adams: Watership Down
John McPhee: Basin and Range
J.K. Rowling: Harry Potter Series
Lev Grossman: The Magicians
Peter V. Brett: The Demon Cycle Series
Tim Powers: Last Call
Roger Zelazny: The Amber Series
Lyndon Hardy: Master of the Five Magics
Brandon Sanderson
Joe Abercrombie
Scott Lynch
Mark Lawrence
Movies/Shows
Reign of Fire
Star Wars
Walking Dead
Lost
Game of Thrones
Sons of Anarchy
Heroes
Black Hawk Down
Avatar: The Last Airbender
Let me know if I missed anything
Thanks for this! :D
"Calling of the Shadow"
They're referencing Ursula Le Guin's "A Wizard of Earthsea", the first of her Earthsea series. The series uses poetic magic really well. Describing it as "calling the shadow" is a little misleading though.
NOT-REALLY-A-SPOILER
The main character, Ged, in a moment of arrogance, attempts to summon the dead. But he fails and inadvertently releases a shadow that haunts him.
Myke Cole mentions China Mieville's book, The Scar, from the New Crobuzon series.
2 years later I still agree you are an amazing person (would be even more if you wrote the works of the people in the panel)
fathersky5 thank you for doing this.
I love that Rothfuss is such a fanboy for Dresden! XD
haha this is very funny
The audio sounds like the mic is inside someone's stomach in the third row.
"And if you're writing a series, it takes really, really long time-" [EVERYONE LOOKS AT JIM.]
Been binge watching author panels, with Jim Butcher on them, all day and I have made this simple observation.
Someone brings a crying baby to all of them.
Every last one.
Maybe it's his baby?
"You gotta have an end to your story or its not a story, its just something you're going on about," is another wild one!! Hahhaa
I'm watching this for the 4th or 5th time, great panel, great discussion, funny, smart, articulate people. References to a whole lot of books that I now need to read.
why is Sanderson not on this panel
Brandon did not attend Phoenix Comicon this year (he was there in 2013, though).
+Nick S Ugh this panel so needs him
Coz he's a shit writer
I read the Final Empire and he uses the words "chaos" about a thousand times in the first 1/4 of the book. He's also crap with any kind of description. His world is a bizarre caricature of some kind of anime world. He needs a thesaurus and a book on adjectives and theit proper use
Nestor's Dragon Their** lmfaooo the irony.
This has been very insightful! So, many great authors on the panel.
Great discussion - thanks for posting for those of us unable to attend these panels/cons.
This was a really interesting panel, thanks for filming it and posting it!
I think Tolkien's numinous magic worked because he used it sparingly. George RR Martin's magic is numinous as well but it works because it's kind of chaotic and its users don't understand it.
+ArchAngel ArchDemon I'm not opposed to it if it's well done, I just prefer the numinous. I liked how it was used in The Demon Cycle and The Kingkiller Chronicles.
+ArchAngel ArchDemon I prefer magic as a concept operating on its own laws and structure. the numinous magic feels like it can be used for any reason and it takes away from creating dynamics and conflict. like if you got a badass wizard who can do anything and you run into some shit you the reader already know itll get worked out because guy is godlike. where if theres clearly defined rules and limitations and the shit hits the fan youre like "whats gonna happen"
Jeff Boxing
It depends on how it's used. If numinous magic is used sparingly it can enhance the sense of wonder in the world without making certain character invulnerable. When I read LOTR I never felt that Gandalf was always 'safe' and could just use his magic powers, because he was obviously vulnerable when he had to pull out his sword like everyone else, hike up the mountain or whatever. Or Paul Muad'Dib in Dune when he can't see certain events because of the limits of his psychic vision, and you don't know which ones.
Vs. Harry Potter and shit blowing up everywhere because they can do spells and hold their wands really hard.
Id say harry potters magic system is a good example of a poorly thought out system i actually agree with you i just really enjoy Rothfuss and Sandersons , Jordans approach to magic as its a set of rules and limitations and gives the reader an understanding
***** i think scientific magic gives the world and its culture deeper structure, its simply an attempt to understand the fantastical its what makes the world so different and unique, and characters having a fundamental understanding of the magic as a scientific tool per se adds to the depth of the setting.
This is a great and informative panel, but I did get distracted around 34 minutes by imagining that the tiny mic at the bottom of the screen was the top of a full sized mic and that Sam Sykes was a giant being interviewed by regular humans.
I like how Rothfuss talked about the author touching themselves because that’s the exact feeling I got during the whole fairy queen sequence of Wise Mans Fear... lol Kinda the pot calling the kettle black buddy
You know, i've never seen Rothfuss before... but i saw that bearded man and thought " yeah... that surely is a 'patrick rothfuss face' "
Same!
I live in Phoenix, and I've never been more ashamed for missing a public event.
Thanks for the talk and the additions to my reading list. :) I think I just spent $150 on books. Again.
cheers from 2024, I am still waiting ;]
That was awesome. Thanks for sharing! Didn't give me too many things to feel uncomfortable with in my own magic system.
I would have loved to have seen Ursula K. Le Guine on this panel. Interesting discussion.
I hate nothing more than trying to watch a recorded panel (or even a college lecture) and there is a baby babbling/crying every five seconds right next to one of the mics.
Exactly. Have some goddamned decency and excuse yourself until you can calm it down.
+ryvian fuckin hate babies
+ryvian The kid barely made a sound during the entirety of this video. Maybe you're the problem.
+Leettle Seester we really should kill all babies
Why stop with babies?
Rothfuss is bald from the back. There's something new I learnt in this video
going to enjoy watching this!
This is priceless
As a father of 2 children, please get a sitter and leave your children at home for these type of events. Thanks. :)
Agreeeeeed! 100%
The night circus is my favorite soft/poetic magic system
I'm with Pat, the time turner always bugged me
a great panel
stormlight archive makes me happy
Rothfuss and Butcher teamup? :)
I would create the magic system first, in the same vein as establishing the world's tech level and capabilities first, because that informs what kind of society and world i am working with, which in turn establishes the cultures that the protagonists and antagonists grew up in. Once I have that, the story can grow organically inside that world just by he characters behaving naturally as someone native to that world would.
If I create the world before the magic, then I would have to go back to tweaking the world, especially the cultures, to reflect the effects the magic would have on society.
I'm getting a hard-pressed "Magic systems are not really important; your characters and plot will suffer once you make them complex and scientific" vibe from most of these authors. Not saying that's a bad thing but it would have been interesting to hear what Brandon Sanderson would have to say to that considering he's able to highlight on these intricate magic systems of his WHILE keeping up the quality of his characters and stories.
+limeconfetto Your world, and the magic system that goes with it, creates the characters, which are most important. It's like a chicken and egg thing. The magic system shapes the character but the character will define the magic system through their POV.
I enjoy Brandon Sanderson's work, but he's more a writer with a craftsman's approach and Rothfuss is more the soul of an artist. There's a reason Rothfuss has published two novels and Sanderson 20+. One guy writes really cool magic systems with decent plots and the other man writes sweeping stories that read like the stuff of legends with poetry and art interwoven throughout.
@@TheBriefepisode Well, name of the wind is just about a guy going to college.
It's interesting when these guys talk about how much they enjoy the subtleties of magic systems, yet can't seem to grasp the subtleties of character development of someone like Frodo. Sure people are flawed and make mistakes, but the current treatment by many authors of their characters is that they must possess fatal flaws to be "interesting". This strikes me as just as inauthentic and uninteresting as so-called perfect, or Mary Sue type of characters. To suggest that writing reflects more a sign of the times and a grittier audience (there's a long essay there) is absurd when people like Tolkien and Lewis had experienced the worst and most fatalistic times that humanity had possibly ever endured. As much as most of this panel referenced Tolkien, it's almost like they haven't bothered reading him as an adult since he not only develops Frodo beyond that guy's simplistic interpretation of him, but also explains (quite subtly and well) the limitations on Gandalf's power that they seem to have missed.
I see your point, as someone who is currenntly enjoying Tolkien's work and grew up on Lewis. Though something I have to say about your mention of Tolkien's audience. Of course his audience had seen a terrible time, so wouldn't they gravitate towards more, not light-hearted, but less violent work. I don't know if my idea is conveyed, but I felt the need to speak.
+Mason Lockrem I think I get your point, though your third sentence is still a little confusing to me. In case my original point was unclear, I just thought it was silly that these authors attributed their gritty writing styles to a presumably more modern, grittier day. Considering what men like tolkien and Lewis lived through, these writers live in extremely cushy, comfortable, and luxurious stress-free times. I agree that Tolkien's and Lewis's audiences would have wanted more lighthearted fare, so that's why I thought these writers assertions were absurd.
Just like the absurd idea that Frodo was a flat character. No, Frodo was a YOUNG character who was the socio-cultural equivalent of an 18 year old despite being in his thirties. Not yet a lot of time for deep character development. By the end of the LotR, he is nearly shattered as a being and it is rather tragic that his prime years were essentially destroyed by his quest.
How much of Tolkien's work have you read and what are you reading now?
+Robert Reid Yes, I totally agree with you on the authors today calling our time gritty.
I started reading Tolkiens work years ago with the Hobbit. Recently The Silmarillion was recommended, so I took it up. I also skimmed through The Children of Hurin.
In Lord of the Rings, I am about to start the Two Towers.
+Mason Lockrem As in Christopher Tolkien's extended Children of Hurin.
+Mason Lockrem Oh, I'm sorry! I didn't know you hadn't finished the LotR! Ugh! I didn't mean to give you any spoilers.
That being said, I'm excited to find someone enjoying it for the first time, or nearly so. Were you able to finish the Silmarillion? Many readers find it difficult in the beginning due to the style, but it gets easier after the creation myth is done. I think you may find the LotR to be the best. The Hobbit is written more for children and was originally conceived separately from events in the LotR. Once you finish the LotR you should be able to see exactly how much it has influenced nearly all fantasy writing and gaming.
Good God Rothfuss loves to talk and talk and talk...
Every person on this panel is trying to describe Sanderson's First Law without stating Sanderson's First Law because it's SANDERSON'S First Law and they're not Sanderson.
they really need a mic to pass to the questions so we could have heard that half of conversation
is the baby crying all the fkng debate? pls tellme if u watched completly
+Etito it stops about 2 mins in
I modeled my homebrewed game's Wizard Class heavily off the Gandalf (and to a smaller extent) as portrayed in the movies and got a pretty interesting mix of magic & special abilities...
Two things i'll take away from this panel: I'd never heard of pretty much anyone here before accept Rothfuss and Butcher, but now i'll be on the lookout for all their books because they seem cool, and Rothfuss and Butcher need to write a book together
did anyone else catch the book titles? they sound like good books but i couldnt catch the titles.
From memory some were: The Scar by Mieville (mightsword mention), The Painted/Warded Man by Brett.
As a tip to anyone that may record a panel show in the future, bring a small, cheap audio recording device with you and plug straight into the PA's aux port (or ask if a recording is already being made you can use, say for a podcast). You'll have clean audio to match your vid, and syncing in the cheapest of vid editiors isn't that challenging really. If you can snap your fingers, you can sync it. Then when folk go to watch your upload, they don't have to sit through a rather painful experience...
Feist's Magician series suffered massively from power escalation. Every new book or set of books had a scaled up bad guy.
Hey what book series was patrick talking about at about 14:20? Where he mentions some character being good at magic, and then having a mental breakdown and it changing everything? I couldn't really hear it well enough to make it out.
Magician by Raymond Feist
32:40 Watch The Originals. It is a marvelous condensation of everything done right a show.
I wonder what they think of psionics
Its a magic system that combines the mental and surreal with the scientific in a ratio.
hey who was the host of this panel? She looks really familiar to me, like an actress on a tv show I saw a long time ago or something.
Around the 13-14min mark the audience starts suggesting stories where 'poetic magic' is used well. I can't hear many of the titles properly can anyone make a list?
didn't catch the first one, the second guy suggests the night angel trilogy by brent weeks
I believe the first is the Magician series by Raymond E. Feist
Thanks!
earthsea!
Please try to remove the audio signal overdrive, i have a very good soundcard and linear headphones so it really really hurt my ears listening on some points, not because of the content, but because of the high frequencies.
What was the name of Jim butcher's favorite books for magic system? 42:00
The Chronicles of Amber series by Roger Zelazny. They are great, you should check them out!
Really? No-one mentioned that Light can be cast on an "object" not a creature (or a creature's eyeball)?!
This was a great panel. Though I'm disappointed that an hour was spent on the subject of magic systems without a single mention of WoT's channeling system.
Hash Pond WoT?
Cappetv
Wheel of Time
Michael Barrett Thank You! =D
Cappetv No problem. It's a great series.
Agreed. WoT is my favorite magic system
oh jimmy b
What kind of goggles is the guy seated in front of Butcher wearing? And why?
Is there a forum or somewhere you can recommend where I can ask/discuss time traveller issues when writing my own stuff?
babies rock
I think tolkain dues ex machina is by design gandalf is literally an angel type being
What does Myke Cole said that he got wrong and received tons of emails regarding Special Forces and Army around 17:00? It was kind of fast for my English understanding.
"I have two Special Forces operators in my second novel, and I made them E-4's, or 'specialists.' And, uh, the volume of e-mail I got, um... A-and I've WORKED with Special Forces operators, I just zigged when I should have zagged, I missed this one. Um, they're supposed to be [E-]6's - no one under the rank of E-6 can be a Special Forces operator in the modern Army and I missed that."
the manga Kekkaishi has a great magic system
I'm confused... are there usually babies?
They all look like engineers
Subtitles please!
"Apocali" is wild!! Hahha
This is my magic system, it’s called L’ndith /ləndiθ/, meaning “stone craft”:
-L’ndith can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. L’ndith manifests itself through precious crystals, called khridhvel’nt /χriðvɛlənt/, roughly meaning “stones of wizardry” in the tolad /tɔlad/ language. Users summon l’ndith by properly reciting tolad incantations while making physical contact with khridhvel’nt. If used properly, l’ndith can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc.
-L’ndith is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain khridhvel’nt and learn incantations in tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of khridhvel’nt in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called l’ndrogh /ləndrɔʁ/ (stone-blooded), to use (or be used for) tolad incantations without crystals.
-Natural khridhvel’nt is a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial khridhvel’nt by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and l’ndrogh for their usage. L’ndith can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two khridhvel’nt (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly.
-After being used for an incantation, khridhvel’nt quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. L’ndrogh are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of khridhvel’nt. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Khridhvel’nt can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of khridhvel’nt is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes.
-Khridhvel’nt were created naturally by k’al’nv’t /kʼalənvət/, roughly meaning “paramount comets”, which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from k’al’nv’t. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one of the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became l’ndrogh from the khridhvel’nt dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the khridhvel’nt, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the khridhvel’nt so that elites could utilize their power.
-Even today, l’ndith is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from khridhvel’nt but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a khridhvel’nt society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called t’avdru /tʼavdru/ (meaning “the canon”), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about khridhvel’nt or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with khridhvel’nt, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some l’ndrogh. The lack of incentive to procure khridhvel’nt or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to l’ndith.
tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.
tripod dude. tripod
You can tell he is actually using a tripod, just not one designed for videography with a smooth fluid head. He is zoomed in from a distance, which accounts for the "herky-jerky" movement (small movements have a large impact). I personally was more bothered by them not being tapped in to the audio feed for the speakers so we could get better audio quality. I have a hard time understanding people with so much reverberation.
I thought Wells was Dan Wells. Darn...
I dislike Kvothe - mostly, but I really like the magic system.
A:TLA!!!!!
Love everyone on here whining about the kid crying. It doesn't make the video unwatchable at all.
They bring babies to this!
Why bring a baby to this?
the girl on the mi at the start, they couldn't find a really pretty girl to present, so they found one who people have to look at a few times and think "is... is she...... hm... can't decide if she's good looking or not". but no one told her that, so she's acts like she's fantastic, but still has a MASSIVE self image issue judging by the jokes and how she blushes everytime she tries to tell a pre-written joke and acting like they're all off the top of her air-head. i despise how attractive women in this world find a place in EVERY field now by default as presenters etc (news, sports shows, panels, anything really that has people loooking at is) just because of their looks.
Bruh, I think you're projecting a bit here... lol
There's a guy sporting a neckbeard sitting in that panel that still considers himself an author. Funny, that.