Asmongold Reacts to "It Gets Better After 100 HOURS..." | By Josh Strife Hayes
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- Asmongold watches a video by Josh Strife Hayes, who discusses about games and particularly MMOs that might have a slow start but which eventually get good. Final Fantasy XIV, World of Warcraft, Warframe and many other games & MMORPGs take time before the story starts ramping up or the player can reach the End Game. Is this a fault of the game itself? Asmongold discusses...
CHECK OUT Josh Strife Hayes : / @joshstrifehayes
Original Video:
• It Gets Better After 1... [It Gets Better After 100 Hours...]
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#Asmongold
If you don't like Asmongold, just watch 100 hours of his streams, it gets good then.
it actually works like that ngl
I can confirm. I use to think he was an absolute asshole. Then with his FFXIV start. I tuned in. He grew on me. lol
it happened to me lol
I honestly hate asmonds personality but i keep coming back to his videos to see his reactions toards stuff i enjoy and then i end up enjoying the videos mostly
Just watch 3 hours of intro and an hour of him fucking around in gold saucer. I promise it gets better after.
"I find 100 hours of free time everyday"
-Asmongold, the slightly above average gamer
Reminds me of the Zelda speedrunner that practiced OoT over 34 hours every day for two years.
"Asmongold, the slightly above average gamer"
I love it, lmfao
Average video game enjoyer
“I quit Skyrim… on the wagon ride. I said bitch, this shits takin’ too long.”
I nearly spit my coffee all over my wife 🤣
I wanna have a asmon stream where he just sit still for 4 Hours no video watching no game etc and slowly watch him get insane 🤣
that's why, whenever i make a new character, i just load the autosave that triggers when you get off the wagon in Helgen. saves a good amount of time
*screaming in the background*
"Ah, you're finally awake!"
It's good intro for first playthrough as it shows whole basics of plot in it. However they should develop ESO's question to 'skip' intro when you already have one character finished on your game. Those who would be impatient would skip, those who enjoy it like myself would leave it play out.
loved this take. skyrim is my all time fav game, but i totally understand asmo.
Just started watching Josh Strife Hayes the other day, I don't play too many MMO's but this dude makes great points on just game design in general. A bunch of what he says can also be implemented into Open world games
I watch a ton of JSH content regularly and he has a lot of great point, but after viewing many opinions from a few sources on the dame topics that conflict, he has some bad ones too.
@@kainhernandez4849 Yeah,he has some bad takes, but I generally agree with him most of the time which is impressive
He is most certainly fun to watch, I just watch/ listen any video while doing routine stuff
I went into FFXIV with the expectation of "I'll put 5 hours into it and see if it hooks"
I ended up playing the game the entire day, looking forward to the next story bit. by the end of the day I was still unsure, telling myself "I guess it was ok"... I ended up coming back the day after... and after, after and now I have 800 hours c:
I just can’t get hooked by it, idk I guess the story doesn’t interest me
@@ChristianGyro it gets better after a 100 hours :D
jk
but really that's fine. unfortunaly ARR took the time to do world building, with lots of filler to make sure you reach level 50 and pad out the content. Doing whatever they can and scratching off bits of that failed 1.0 for ARR. It's not for everyone, but people promise a good story by Heavensward for a reason, which not many can experience unfortunaly
@@ChristianGyro That is a perfectly valid opinion, coming from an XIV player with 1000+ hours. If the game doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you, and that's okay!
I went into FF14 knowing beforehand that people call ARR is slow and it get better later.
Personally i agree tho, until i got into satasha and its fun, a bit too fast since veteran just rushing stuff without giving me time to observe, but fun regardless.
Then come ifrit, which is really nice.
Im happy soon they mention Titan, but then i lost my faith again due to that food fetch quest.
Still, overall its fun, but i dont want to revisit ARR story again
It ’s good that they are reworking the early msq
Warframe's new player experience has always been a point of contention even among the vets, we've always been asking DE to do something about it and whilst they've done a handful of things, it's still very barebones.
I started it years ago and watching Josh's video saw they had improved the tutorial quite a bit since i started.....though it barely scratches the surface of the stuff needed
@@SuperLogan8054 As a WF vet of six years, 4.4k hours playing missions, over 7k hours on Steam and god knows how much time spent researching and reading the wiki and many other sources, I couldn't have agreed more with each and every point Hayes made on both his first video about Warframe and the "it gets better after 100 hours" video he based on honeymooners desperately trying to defend the game.
That said I do hope he'll get to make an update after 100 hours into the game. That's a surefire way for him to run into the game gating him out of progression due to inventory slots, unless he pays up or dives into the market and get scammed by grifters until he understands pricing.
I really liked Warframe, but after campaign ended, mobs became basically unkillable even when I maxed out mods, so I just quit after trying to get better for a week.
2000+ in warframe here and I gotta say I won’t return to the game anytime soon. The Dev doesn’t even know what to do with the game anymore, railjack mechramech .the game lore doesn’t even exist at this point
@@Ronin3run you used a wrong combination then. Simply putting maxed mods on a gun won't make it kill level 50 ads in one hit. The problem is that the game doesn't really explain that very well, especially the way status effects work.
Personally, I think a game that gets better later on is fine. However, the game also needs to be good enough to play early on to allow the player to enjoy the game enough to get to that '100 hours in'.
if you have to invest 100 hours for the game to get good then the game is not that great imo. youre right, it has to be good enough to get you through the first 100 hours.
if the first 100 hours of the game are not good im just not really inclined to invest that kind of time to a crap game.
It shouldn't be it gets good, but it gets even better. Warframe does get better, but it's not enough to say it gets even better. Those 100 hours need more content and they should make quests explaining in more details their systems, but I must also say they have something similar inside the game, a tutorial, but it is hidden and doesn't get mentioned at all. I played over 200 hours until I found out that existed in the game.
@twizzm If you’re playing that card then “a good game” is subjective as well, some think solo player games are the best, some say RPG games are the best and some might say MMO’s are the best game.
A game that gets better later on (FFXIV) is better than a game that gets worse later on (WOW). It is even better than a game that stays the same later on (GW2). But you are right - a game that gets good later on (WF) is the worst.
But people needs to understand that 'better' for you does not mean better for someone else. These whole things are subjective.
@@k.vn.k Precisely, if you want to talk about the perfect MMO, it just doesn't exist some people will still say that A is still better than B no matter what. It's all subjective and most relies on a persons inherent likes and dislikes and even their experiences in said game that give them that bias.
"Play this game every waking moment for the next third of a year and you might start having fun" - Bro, you just described WoW design from 8.0 to the current day.
i actually enjoyed the begining of wow (classic) but leveling up as a prot warrior vanhilla XD took me forever and i did keep to it cuz ppls were telling me the end game is sick yeah i did it and yeah it was nice ... but in other hand some of my friend tried it and after like 10 hour of leveling there were just like no ty thatsnt for me at all and left ... but the thing is that when wow came out there was way way less games then this days :p i would say the only other game i can find in that time that was a mmo and doing good is like d2 or runescape(classic) wich was like nothing compared to wow in graphics (maybe for the skills you could compare them since runescape had basicaly every skill wow had in skills ...but thats basicaly it ... when you have basicaly no competition you could afford to do this kind of things ...even for casual players cuz for the graphics the mechanics they were brand new and not much game could actually do the same and then ppls telling you get 60 you will see its way better the game is starting there ... well ok i try ... but this days alot of them have similar game play and mechanics and if the guy try all these game and in one of them get hook in less then 2h you just lost the game cuz your game take way longer to get fun ...btw if you compare thoses games to wow were the easier to max lol runescape classic maxing have fun XD if you ever play osrs or rs2 and think that was long ... nothing compared to runescape classic :) so yeah wow was way more easy then classic to max actually 1 skill of runecape classic was like your lv 60 max with all proffesion include :P so ya nothing to compare 18 skill ... well gl :P like doing wow classic 18 time to max 1 account lol
Josh Strife Hayes makes exceptionnal content. He is funny, engaging, analytical and sees every single issue in every game.
EVE Online players: "Just play the first 1,000 hours it will get good."
EVE is good from the first hour. What needs to get good is you, the player.
This is a thing in MMOs, the leveling is part of the experience and you need to grow with it
@@user-xl5kd6il6c i would say the tutorials are pretty bad tbh, but they are kinda necessary to understand the systems since there is so much player freedom that you won't even know what you're doing otherwise.
this is probably the one game i don't really know how to fix in that aspect, except for possibly fixing the base UI to be easier to understand (that was my main issue when starting, i couldn't find half of the things i was looking for because if i remember correctly, they don't even tell you there's a search function)
@@mithshude there was a search function?
@@2000nerffreak yup, it's above the star systems/planets in upper left and works for everything including the menus (which is not clarified in game as far as i know)
Took me a while to figure out
@@mithshude 10 years and never found it lol
Warframe players have been constantly hounding the developers to improve the new player experience. I knew what Josh was going to say watching his warframe video.
Exactly. I have no idea where Josh got the idea that Warframe players want everyone to play a vague 100 hour game for "a good 2 hour experience that comes later" and will gatekeep it from anyone that wants new player experience to be better...
He said Warframe has no story, and people told him to story starts at Second Dream... That's all.
@@ayushdeshmukh284 the second dream story is still pretty far in, more than people will go if they don’t like the beginning
@@breadlover8484 I think the fastest I’ve ever reached second dream is in 30 hours of gameplay, still a time sync
To summarize, a game should not "get good" after 100 hours, it should start good get BETTER after a hundred hours.
Not a good summary. Yes, it should start good, but it doesn't need to get better after a hundred hours.
@@Peetah112 Wrong.
@@chuckchan4127 Then at least provide an argument. Not sure how you can argue that a game NEEDS to get better after 100 hours, though.
@@Peetah112 No.
@@chuckchan4127 So you have no argument and you're just emotionally immature. Gotcha.
Warframe's problem is that what they've revamped in the new player experience is the first hour to 1½ hours, making it prettier mostly.
But after that 1½ hours the game just drops the player into a gigantic M.C. Escher painting and tells you to just do whatever you feel like, which just results in so much confusion that most people back away and don't bother.
The second problem is that the main storyline with cinematic quests doesn't really start again until 50-100 hours later, the reason for which is that this story wasn't added to the game until a few years after release and the devs wanted the story quests to be rewarding and engaging for the old players at the time who had already gotten to, what was at the time, the late game.
They just never filled out the huge expanse leading up to the beginning point of the main story with similar engaging cinematic questlines, so most people never get to experience that stuff and unlock the actual character creator.
I also just quit because of the crafting times to be honest. The story never really interested me at all, it felt like some c tier generic sci-fi story, until you get to the one planet where they're all enslaved, but by then I'm already burnt out on the story and I can't get into it, and that's assuming you've managed to work through the rats nest of mechanics, prerequisites, and hidden quests like you said.
But even beyond all that, just grinding and getting gear was fun, until I had to wait TWO REAL LIFE DAYS, after grinding for longer than even that, just to use the fucking gear or especially CHARACTERS that I had spent all that effort for. That was what pissed me off and has killed any future interest in that game. I cannot get back into it just because I know that exists, even after it's already etched it's 150 hours out of my soul.
It's insulting to my intelligence, at least wow has the decency to pretend it's for some gameplay reason, but in Warframe it's just "lul here's a fucking timer watch it shithead". Just "I'm going to timegate you for no practical reason at all, and you're gonna have to deal with it". I mean fuck even joining a clan, if you want to socialize and go to their base, 24 hours. At least that one I can defend as people not farming clans for blueprints, but even then every other guild system in games leaves that up to players, as it should be.
@m that's not exactly fair to accuse it of.
Warframe isn't even close to being as repetitive as most racing games and first person shooters, or even RTS games.
Warframe has several different mission types, granted they mostly boil down to a few slightly different flavours of slaughtering fodder enemies as fast as possible, three different flavours of escort missions, two different flavours of puzzle room raid missions, and a few different flavours of point defense missions.
Then there's stuff like eidolon and orb hunting later on and the failed pvp modes that nobody wants to bother with.
If you only play a couple different mission types mission types in the most efficient meta frame with the most efficient meta weapons, that's on you.
@@blujay1294 I kind of understand the crafting times.
They're built into the game to make you space out your play sessions, logging in every day to play with a new toy that just got ready for you.
It'll also encourage to play different parts of the game while they wait for something new to be finished building so they can take it to the current meta mission for ranking and forming gear and then be done with it.
@@deetsitmeisterjd
The leveling system was made for you to use each and every weapon instead of sticking to the meta weapons, you'd probably find a lot more fun and cool weapons like than in a system without it.
@@deetsitmeisterjd Yeah, it's somewhat annoying until you get higher up in the MR ratings and you get to mod new weapons without ranking them up first.
It also makes you try weapons you otherwise wouldn't have tried.
Peak Warframe for me was like 300hrs in. Knew enough to get my feet wet with endgame systems but hadn't burnt myself out on soul crushing farming loops. after that it just got worse until it was time to move on after a few years playing. New player experience is bad, midgame is fun and where all the content is at. Endgame is just an empty wasteland of fashionframe.
same man. played wf since 2014 and was on and off until ab 2019, i just didnt want to give it up but its just not worth the time. 😂
@@bigfootisreal_ loool i dont get people im mexican my ingles is not good i undertand so good warframe the first time i play i let my newphew play and he get it real fast and i was wtf people are just dumb as fuck
@@bigfootisreal_
Play for fun bro.
Im MR 17 and ive been playing since 2016
I play whatever and whenever I want.
Much better
I remember when I first tried Warframe, I thought it was fun until I had the opportunity to build my first "frame" or whatever and noticed that there was a waiting period. Apparently, the factory needed to manufacture and assemble the warframe before it was delivered to me or something so that I could use it. Of course, I could pay money to skip the time limit but it was very reminiscent of mobile games and their predatory systems designed to try and get you to spend money. I get that it's a free to play game, but no thanks. I'm not going to wait another 3+ days to play a new character I just spent all that time trying to unlock. As Josh Hayes talked about in the video, I don't have that much free time to really be that invested into a game that is going to make me wait to play it anyway. I'll go elsewhere where I can play without any limitations beyond those I already have.
This goes into the other argument Josh Hayes here is talking about: apparently you need to play X hours to acquire enough materials and what not. I'm glad I didn't sink too much time into it to have spent more than 300+ hours before realizing it wasn't worth it.
@@WigglyBro XD but u can go to play other game and came back when ur warframe and wepons are build XD i always do the same thing
"2 hour long game w/ 98 hours of intro crap"
Asmongold: it's just like my stream
Me: 💀
Destiny 2 players: "This season gets good after 100 hours!"
Bruh. If the first seasonal event doesnt drop a neato gun and the seasonal exotic is lame, just dont even play. Lmao
i gave up in forsaken.....not coz cayde died, but because I didn't get to pull the trigger!
So very very true
Every season it gets a lot worse 🤦♀️
Hating on destiny 2 is a meme, it's good right now
1:06 I call this the "finished movie effect": The audience sees the 90 minutes of compressed awesome. The director sees the 2 years of blood sweat and tears that went into it, all the scenes that were cuts, all the scenes that had to be replaced with lesser ones etc... . This leads to the director often having a worse opinion of his own movie that the audience
@@biodidu25 How is that relevant to what OP said?
@@Hooga89 no, casuals dont buy platinum, hardcore player do. Plats is the way Warframe finance itself.
@@Hooga89 people discovered warframe because it was a free game, they wont spend a dime on a game they dont know yet.
@@Hooga89 "The casuals keep the game alive" no, they dont. They barely play the game to begin with, just look at League of Legends. Hardcore players are the main source of revenue for F2P and subscription based games, because casual players dont commit enough to spend money into the game with cosmedics or year long subscriptions.
@@areoblast1 Hardcore players mostly just trade stuff to the whales for plat.
When I was playing Warframe, early on I found myself playing for a couple hours here and there, then I eventually fell in love and was playing a shit load. It did get better, but I never felt it was bad early on, it just got way more addicting later on.
The early gameplay isn't bad, they just do a shit job at explaining what to do. It's too overwhelming and they don't explain vital systems of the game, so once you spend some days playing it you start to understand how the gamr works then you'll find yourself enjoying it more and more.
Idk, I got to around the Sacrifice quest line before I quit, partly because of the lack of cross save/platform transfer since I switched from Xbox to Ps5, but also because the game devolved to so many different grinds that only exist so you can grind more, stuff like the arcanes and corrupted mods as well as rivens and farming ending being so frustrating to do
Yeah it didn’t stick with me lol. I understood how to do all the missile jumps and aim yourself and built a couple Warframe cause my friends kept saying it gets good and just get serration mod or whatever and it just didn’t stick for me. Idk if the story was just not that interesting or the way Warframes look overly fleshy and slimy/shiny was off-putting to me or the really long craft wait time system was the issue but I never got hooked.
literally me with this random Korean/Chinese MMO. Not just because it gets good later on, it's because I bought it and has nothing else to do. I downloaded it so I might as well play it. A lot of people wanted to play some random MMORPG more just because it's free, just like me. Back then at least.
1 week to grind for warframe and weapon blueprints, 1 week to grind for mats and 1 week to actually craft them just so they can sell you time boosters!!! (I know it's not one week but it's still a long time) Yeah fuck Warframe. It has really good features (combat, movement, dojos) but the game actually manages to make the fun aspects of the game into a chore
I remember when I first started ff xiv, there was like 250ish story quests just to reach the patches between arr and heavensward. It definitely felt like it was dragging on in more than a few spots
The 100 story quest swamp from ARR into Heavensward has definitely killed many people's interest in the game.
Tbh I was just excited there was more stuff to go through
I still don't understand this.
I reached Heavenswars story in exactly 57 hours.
Phrase sounds like it belongs with the phrases:
"It gets good in season 3"
"You just have to get through the first 2 books and after that, the series is great!"
I don't know how often people have commented on my review of a book I didn't like that was the first part of a series and tried to tell me that I couldn't say, it was bad, because I had only read the first book. And after that it really gets good. No, I can review this. The first book sucked. And since all these people read the second part, they must have liked it. So no, it won't get better for me.
"And since all these people read the second part, they must have liked it. So no, it won't get better for me."
Such a great perspective on it too. Something kept them sticking around, so maybe it only 'gets better' later if your expectations are already low enough you'd watch 3 seasons of it in the first place. Sometimes I see it with people who love its original medium and can't come to terms with the new format's representation being crap. Some people have low standards, some people have different tastes, some are deluding themselves.
@@Fadaar Dr. Stone in my honest opinion the first 5 episodes are boring (my opinion), when Senku meets the people village is where the really fun begin.
As someone is not from United States I can get why people prefer more DBZ than old Dragon Ball, one start the action part more intensed than the other.
Would this be the opposite to, i like their old stuff, better than their new stuff.
@@Fadaar
I think, if somebody dislikes something so much, they are quitting playing/watching/reading it, you should just let them.
With TV shows an example for me was The Walking Dead. I disliked this very much, because it was boring ah to me. I didn't even finish the first episode the first time I started watching. People kept telling me though how it would get so much better, so I rewatched the episode and quit again. Then I was told it was just the first episode that sucked and I actually watched the first season. I did not like it. And now people always tell me how it only gets good after the first season, but I am very sure that for me it won't. If you are willing to quit something, you should, because obviously it's not for you.
Books and TV shows are a bit different in my opinion, because the creator can't go back and fix it. But the Warframe dev could, just like wow did with exiles reach.
The AVERAGE gamer has 3 children?! Seems a LITTLE off to me?
Most likely, they included all people who play games tho. That means mobile games, facebook games and games like bejeweled/card games. By that metric ofc - even my 90y old grandpa would be included as a gamer, who plays chess once a week.
yeah. it's off lmao. the birth rate is 1.68 and under in western countries.
@L M Exaclty, which means that for every farther with 1 kid, which is quite common, at least where I live, there has to be one with 5 (not entirely true, as enough with 3 or 4 would result in the same, but you get the point), which I have never met personally. Not to mention all the gamers that don't have kids. I'm not saying the statistic is wrong, just weird and if I cared more, with do some research into it.
@@deetsitmeisterjd Whatever label you give them, they are still the majority of paying customers
No, thats someone who has their priorities straight. 8 hours of work, plus commute, dinner with family, maybe watch a show with everyone, housework. Getting enough sleep does not leave 4+ hours a day for gaming during the week.
"I would have written a shorter script"
Chat's reaction after complaining about JSH repeating himself is priceless.
"the game gets good x hours in"
Sure, it did for you. Does it for me though? It might be the aspects you consider good, are things I either don't care about or even actively dislike. You don't know what I like or how I think about the game/story design. So, you might be right. But there's also entirely possible I waste those hours to discover that this promised land is worthless or shit. So if it doesn't hook me quickly, it's not worth doing.
Don't play MMOs then
@@Emilstekcor What a strange thing to say. There's MMOs that are fun from the get go.
@@omologo95 name one
@@Emilstekcor FF14, BDO, hell even WoW's fine from the start. Like, BDO is the glaring example here. It just starts to suck at endgame.
@@omologo95 ff14 is the single worst most boring start until you beat heavenward, bdo is fun just cause crazy combat and ultimately the same problem as Warframe though, and I never played Wow though if you are reaching for blizzard you've already lost.
An MMO that was really interesting for this was when I tried out Dragon's Prophet. It had a system where the tutorial would drop you in with a fairly well setup hot bar of maybe 60% through abilities and you got to feel amazing and tons of power before the game knocked you down to level 1 which let you bet standard MMO progression and a taste of later game combat so you have a reward to strive for
The quests in ESO are so well done that it hooks you from the beginning. It feels like a single player game.
I know. My problem is I played on console with friends. Once I went to PC they want me to start over alone.
@@kevonwalker82 That is fair but cross saves are less important than an overall good game.
@@zaferoph True. The issue is I built up a character and had a guild on console. I have no PC friends.
This is the opposite of what I want from an mmo.
@@VadamDxD what I think they meant by that is that the story experience isn't somehow reduced for the sake of making it an MMO. Playing ESO solo does not make you feel like you have a worse experience for it. If it had an "offline mode" which tweaked the game a bit to be more balanced for solo play you'd pretty much get an equivalent experience. The game is a good single player game with a good MMORPG implementation.
Kinda confused as to why chat is saying that "FFXIV ANDYS BEING CALLED OUT" when talking about how a game's early game is too slow or bad...when it was FFXIV players themselves that were saying that in the first place since ever that it made the devs cut down ARR MSQ by a good 20%
Overall MSQ by 20%, ARR specifically was cut by aprox 34%, with some questlines completely gone now.
To be fair, when I first started playing FFXIV, the amount of people I saw saying “it gets good after ARR” was insane
@@ryanmorrissette27 I'm not defending ARR or saying it's wrong. Just found it funny how chat was going "FF STANS MAD" when talking about ARR because it was the FF players themselves saying how it gets better after ARR and that ARR was too long
the majority of people shitting on ARR havent played ARR since it launched, they have gutted ARR at least three times since then. there is so much missing from the experience its like comparing Vanilla WoW with Cata WoW in terms of the early game. All the while people havent played the early levels since vanilla continue to shit on the early game experience telling people its a slog when new players come in during cata.
Warframe was that, but on steroids. Bitching about "new player experience" has been a thing for pretty much entirety of game's existence, specifically because of how community in Warframe works. It's in large part about "hey, want to play this awesome ninja game with me?" followed by the vet and his friend experiencing the new player experience together. And then new player quits because they're not invested in the game yet. It always sucked.
But it's an MMO looter shooter, and that's actually pretty typical of that genre. Warframe is just on the extreme of that genre, with exceptionally good gameplay and mid to early end game, and exceptionally terrible early game.
Dryface is good, but I prefer Double-Barreled British Well-Dressed Man
problem with warframe is that it literally takes those hours cuz of wait times. time gates. rep grinds. and caps on all of it...
Yeah, time gates are a bummer, but it's the price we gotta pay for the game to be free to play and not pay 2 win... It's not like there's a competitive, hardcore end-game metagame at the end of the grind, so there's no need to hurry really
@@magnolia549 my mans hasn't farmed fortuna or poe rep and asked himself why the fuck is he even doing this shit in the first place
@@AndruSouls the game is pay to win, look at rivens
@@filipgabriel1262 rivens are not a necessity, so I wouldn't call warframe p2w, the biggest problem with the new player experience is having to deal with a market they have nothing of value to offer to, therefore taking longer if you want to keep a few frames or get new weapons/mods
@@juhdfsiuhsgh you can pay real money to have an advantage over other players, riven make the game easier to play so they make endgame activities easier to complete. Sure, (veiled) rivens are easy to get even for a normal player, but you can skip that grind by playing. P2w isn't as prevalent as in other games, but its there.
And yeah, the market is useless to a new player. I frankly don't understand why trade is unlocked at mr2, at that level players should learn how to make basic builds, build a frame and complete some of the planets.
I think the problem with the phrase "it gets better after 100 hours" is that it also gets mistaken for "it gets EVEN better after 100 hours." What I mean by this is that the base game sure is good but late game content is more fun and ramps up even more gameplay and content.
Thats how it should be, but unfortunately the former is used WAY more often than the latter.
There's a clear difference here: the average gamer, and the average MMO gamer are two different things. The average mmo player plays more than 8 hours a week average, I'll tell you that.
I think the average gamer spending 1 hour a day is bullshit. I think the average gamer is closer to 4
@m I can tell you have no friends whatsoever lol
@@D.Snutts lol I think ive played cs go for maybe 8 hours during the last two weeks and that’s a pretty average amount to me. I have other shit to do, both things that I have to do and other ways to spend my free time. I’m not alone in this, there are many other gamers like this. If the game industry wants to keep making more money and produce more interesting experiences it needs to also attract people who cannot invest more time than say 1 hour day into videogames.
You sound like the type of guy that says "I only play single player games because the story so much better"
@m chill, dude. You ain't getting any more friends with that attitude. lol
The proof that your right about the Skyrim wagon ride is that one of the most popular mods let’s you skip it, the new life mod in case anyone didn’t know
Not really. Skyrim intro is good as an introduction to the game, it's cinematic, it showcases the major parts of incoming story. It's simply that Skyrim also has place for multiple playthroughs, and those playing the game again have no use for this long intro. Asmon among other things has very specific tastes, so of course he would be the one who can't imagine waiting 5 minutes before getting into gameplay.
I think you're also ignoring the fact that mods are for people who've already played and finished the game.
So it's not suprising that one of the most popular mods is a mod that let's you accelerate the beginning of a game and try out new things.
I mean, it autosaves as "prisoner" when you get to character creation, meaning whenever you want to start a new game without the wagon ride you can just load that save then immediately create your character..
I think the alternate start mod is popular because it gives you a different character start and puts you in a totally different location, sometimes even giving you a good gear set to start with, even allowing different starts depending on which race you play. Not just because it skips the opening cinematic.
Of course a modding community is going to love a mod that skips an unskippable cutscene, most modders have played through the game multiple times. I'n fact Skyrim does a superb job of hooking new players, I mean what other games first moments of gameplay is trying to survive a dragon attack?
I love when games puts you in a side quest that takes 1 hour to complete just to show you that this game have an inventory 😂
And there are idiots like this reviewer that still miss the basics and even then refuse to seek a tutorial just to further the viewpoint they want their audience to take
The way I view it is that MMOs have to start out simple to avoid overwhelming the player, as you keep playing the game will introduce new abilities, systems and complexity. many hours in most of these systems will be in place and allow for the game to throw more interesting mechanics and situations at players.
If absolutely everything was introduced at once in the first two hours the amount of information would be overwhelming and off-putting in its own way.
I'm not a fan of boosted characters because I don't want to waste my time trying to run a dungeon with a player who has no idea how to play their class or when to use their abilities as this will likely lead to the group failing.
While I agree with what you’ve posted here, I would point out that there’s a difference between simple and boring. MMOs should start simple and I’d never suggest otherwise, but they should still interest players, a sprout should want to play more.
For an example from a previous final fantasy, FF9 starts off simple in both narrative and gameplay. You don’t have most of the characters and the few you do have don’t have their abilities yet, but you get an inkling of what will follow and a fantastic opening act and story hook. Once you’re out of the starting town, you WANT to see what will happen :)
It also makes sense, it would be kinda weird if you are straight up a beast from the get go or even early on. Same goes for the story in a sense, not always but sometimes.
Yes things should start simple, but those simple things should be fun. As a non-MMO example, Breath of the Wild starts in a smaller zone with few abilities, but the core gameplay is still fun even before the full features of the game come into play.
@@Lyu-Phy agreed, power feels best when earned, even if the player uses that power just to wreck easy stuff. There is something very cathartic about coming back to early areas and getting revenge on things that gave you grief. I also agree this should go for the story too.
Ff14 strangely shows both the good and the bad. The start is kinda shit, you’re killing literal ladybugs and squirrels as basically pest control. It sucks and it’s boring. Before long though, you’re killing demigods, personally leading the charge against the villains and genuinely saving the world by the end of the story. After that, your character is actually seen as a legendary hero, there are very few who don’t know of you. Many quest givers refuse to give you the boring jobs because they feel it’s beneath you. From both a gameplay and narrative standpoint, you earn your power and it feels great.
@m No, I watched the entire thing start to finish.
What pisses me off about boosts is I got to this point grinding, and now I’m being held down by bad players who never learned shit or earned shit and now my endgame is ruined because I have 3 team mates in an end game instance making pre subscription player mistakes
I really like your reaction videos. It's nice to see someone go in depth rather than just saying 'bro, no way' and cheering for 5 minutes before dropping a merch plug. I can rarely catch them but your streams are good too. Keep up the good work, you're doing great stuff.
MMO's tend to stack content on top of each other and hardly ever go back to adjust the beginning chunks of content. "It gets better after X hours" is technically true on most cases so I doubt it's going to go away.
The point of the video is not that its not true tho. Its that if a game needs at least x number of hours to get good, then its a flawed game.
Nice! Never a dull moment in the MMO scene for interesting things to watch. Love Josh!! Love you too bro!
this sums it up perfectly
Well never a dull moment after that first 100 hours anyway
Personally I don't think FF14's start is even that bad. I never got into WoW because it felt so much like the mmo grind, and sure FF14 has those moments you wish it just went forward - but then it does. I started 14 like a week ago. And I keep in mind constantly what people have said about ARR.
I was enjoying it, and when I got to the first 4 man dungeon... I was hooked.
I stopped several times because they have so many mandatory quests that is just go here go here it just bored me out. Stopped now on second expension the story is also pretty bad there.
Ff14 is way more grind than wow is
I had to take several breaks due to getting bored to death, the first one before I even got out of town. FF14 leveling has way too little combat and way too much filler dialogue and travel quests.
@@SwaggerHarrystlyesminecrafter as somebody who levelled a wow character to 60 and is currently leveling a ff character through the end of ARR, this is only true if you use a weird definition of “grind” that makes wow’s leveling out to be equal to ff’s. That’s just not true at all. FF’s grind has so much stuff to do when you’re not “grinding” - crafting, exploration, filling logs are just a few examples of things I do when I’m tired of the “grind”.
Furthermore, while FF’s leveling grind is longer, god its so much better man. Its just so so so much better, even in ARR. getting to level 60 in WoW was one of the least fulfilling gaming experiences of my life, and the second I got to the Lich King zone and saw the first quests were no different from the ones I had been doing, I was just OUT, man. FF, even in ARR, is just so much more compelling. The writing and worldbuilding and characters and exploration were all just better, not to mention how cool class quests are. FF’s leveling experience is just so much better, and saying anything else is just disingenuous. Wow I said a lot lmao, its a topic w a lot to it and its interesting to me tho
@@TheImmortalPoetPOE lol, if "leveling" was your priority then you're doing it wrong.. if you wanted combat while leveling then why dafuq are you doing msq. lmao better just do dungeons if you wanted to fight mobs, and then when you're 50 then skip the story if you hated it, record was 7 hours ARR speed run, you can maybe do it in 24 hours
The biggest thing I've noticed with people I've asked to try new games and I used to do this too is I'd give up too quickly and not actually put the time into a game to figure it out and see what all there actually is so once I started putting in the effort I've found way more games I'm actually interested in instead of getting bored playing the same shit over and over cause I don't wanna have to put the time in to unlock the better content or figure out how to play it. My ex would play Roblox and I'd constantly try finding really good games she says would interest her but would quit after an hour or two and go back to Roblox shit drove me crazy lol like just put in the time and you might find out you really like it.
Just as a fun note that isn't mentioned about desert bus. If you steer off the road into the dirt you break down and have to be towed back to town.
The towing back to town is also done in real time.
Reminds me of the other Strife video where he said that the line between a 'hardcore' and 'casual' player was 4 hours a day. Man I don't need 2nd job. Expecting people to literally play 28 hours a week to be apart of your inclub is preposterous.
I don't know the video you're referencing but I feel like those numbers sound accurate.
4 hours a day and/or 28 hours a week would be a hardcore gamer. I don't think it's wrong to consider less than that casual.
I don't know what club you're referencing. Just being considered a Hardcore gamer? For that the numbers seem accurate.
That was how I felt when I tried games like WoW, the art style, the game mechanics and the tutorial just didn't do it for me.
It’s crazy how widely opinions can very. I personally loved playing through every bit of wow and have leveled over a dozen characters, that game hooked me hard.
Wow is garbage, it's just a nostalgia prison for its older players that came when its gameplay was actually an innovation compared to other games
Played WoW at launch quit by level 10 came back like 8 months later and it didn't particularly get fun until like 40 imo and then I was hooked through WOTLK every day.
yea, i only got into WoW years ago after finishing wc3...
i miss the old wc3 times...
@@WobiKabobi yeah totally i was addicted to wow worse than i was to cocaine LOL
I just went back into WoW to start a new character after watching this video by Josh. Exile's Reach is pretty good for a new player experience, I think, and that's at least something WoW did well in the past number of years. This guy really knows games!
Yeah, exiles reach is great. A self contained story that shows you mechanics and even its own dungeon.
It just was introduced way too late, really.
Eh some of his videos I feel like he just tells the audience what they want to hear.
@@Apav1x ironic that you’re saying this on an Asmongold video.
I loved back in the day when you started a game and had no real idea when the ending was coming and it was a surprise
This is why I put down FFXIV in the middle of Heavensward. One and a half expansions in and most of the time I wasn't having fun.
BDO players: "It gets good after 10,000 hours"
But only like 100 hours of that is actual playtime
it gets good when you buy 2000 costumes to convert to cron stones
10k afk hours lol
@@osuplaeyurreallygood I've played with many hundreds of people in various guilds and only heard of 4-5 total costumes bought for this reason. It just doesn't happen very much.
Eh as a BDO veteran it's the opposite. I miss being a new player, wondering what's up with the black spirit, meeting new people and asking them how to do x or y, figuring out shit myself. There was so much to do, guilds were actually active ( I remember getting into a guild and the same day going on a boat trip to fish for a guild mission with them). It was a pretty great new player experience. Now all you do is grind, take a break when you lose billions to failed enhancements, come back and repeat. I've been on a break for months now, and I cant seem to really get back into it again. It's not like Warframe, it doesn't get better with time, once you reach a certain level it gets worse.
I love how hyped up the chat gets whenever the FFXIV launcher goes up.
The issue with this argument is it assumes everyone should enjoy everything. Some things just can't be enjoyed unless you put in a ton of time and that's just how it is. Nier Automata doesn't really end until the 5th play through. If you tell somebody the story is fantastic but you have to play the game 5 different times they might think oh I don't want to. And that's ok. But they're missing out on something great.
ARR is a slow burn of world building but without it, the other expansions don't have the same kick.
Wine tastes great but requires a long time to ferment.
If you want quick and dirty just eat grapes.
That's true, and that's something i try to say when i talk about Monster Hunter, especially it's combat system... it's very rewarding and i love the weight and impact of it, but it is not for everyone, and that's fine
Every day I thank god that the ARR filter still exists.
Using warframe as an example in this case is just plain wrong because "the game doesn't get better after 100 hours". in a matter of fact you could argue the game is more fun early on because you doesn't have good builds yet and the game is still somewhat challenging and engaging.
warframe is fun to play from the get go, what people were telling JSH is that the story gets really good after you get to the second dream quest, After 40-60 hours depending on your play style.
While I appreciate that the devs of FFXIV ARR actually DID trim a ton of the fat of the base game's MSQ recently and made it less of a slog, the video DOES still have a valid criticism of that form of design. ARR and the post-ARR patches are VERY much about world-building and set-up, it's about putting all the pieces in place and making sure everything is ready for the dominos to start falling. And yes, this does pay off tremendously, both in Heavensward and in Shadowbringers especially.
But the sad truth is that this doesn't change the fact that ARR simply isn't as well paced or engaging as anything that comes after it. Even with much of the bloat cut out, it can still feel slow and meandering from a storytelling perspective for that first 50 levels, and this is a FLAW. And because FFXIV is an MMO that has built everything around its story, there isn't much they can do to change that, because like I said, those pieces ARR sets up are CRUTIAL to pivotal moments in the story hundreds of hours later. All they can really do at that point is hope that the players are either REALLY INTO the set-up, or the community / gameplay experience is enough to carry them through.
And to be clear, I personally think ARR gets more flack from the community than it deserves. It's not BAD. It just pales in comparison to the expansions, but it brings a lot to the table, especially the EXCELLENT Coils Of Bahamut. But the first chunk of the game is much slower than everything that comes after, it can't be denied.
This.
My friend recently convinced me to try FF14 and after a week of playing I lost all interest because of how much I disliked ARR. When I told my friend he told me: oh you just have to get through ARR and then it gets good.
I told him I was not gonna waste 20-30 hours of my life in content I did not enjoy just to get to the good part and he got mad and called me a casual.
i think you're placing this on the wrong point because if the story has a bad pacing then that's in the story critique department and not the gameplay department because in the game you can skip everything, what the video is about is you have to "play" it 100 hours to get better, not "watch"......the video is about a critique on "gameplay" and not "story telling" every story ever told has at least once had a problem on pacing but its not really a major problem in videogames because someone can just skip it and find joy in raids or side contents in the first 2-5 hours. The whole point of the video is that the "gameplay" gets good after 100 hours and that is not a problem that ff14 has because some people just get stuck in gold saucer or play triple triad, or fish forever. FF14 has no 100 hour gameplay problem, it has a ARR pacing problem and that is not the point of this video. Some people may dislike the gameplay because they have a different taste like a fast paced action and you couldn't find joy in it then that is your opinion, i will not argue with anyone who didn't enjoy the gameplay and no amount of hours played will change the 2.5 GCD and if they hate it then it will never change even for 100 hours gameplay
It's really a paradox
The game truly is great, the combat improves dramatically, the story and lore everything about the game is really good....
But only after you've gotten like let's say 50 hours once you've reached the end of ARR.
Personally, while I didnt mind the beginning of ARR, I know many people dont like it and there are issues with the pacing and slow nature to it.
The solution could be to just buy a skip, but then unless you go our of your way and spend an hour or 2 reading up on what happened, then you'll be completely lost and lose half of the emotion that comes from going through base heavensward.
But then again, for everyone that says to just get through ARR and or skip it to get to the better half, theres probably a few that will Chastise you for doing that.
To Mecha Muffin, I just recommend either playing it on the side till you reach like lvl 40 or something since that's where it picks up, or skip it and do your homework and read. It really is a good game, but your friend shouldn't have inherently called you a casual for that.
One of the few times I feel compelled to comment on ARR. I agree that ARR is the weakest of story, but part of that was several reasons.
They had to redo from 1.0 which is even worse than 2.0. 2.0 was a massive improvement over 1.0. It actually isn't THAT bad but it has aged. So a new player who hasn't played 1.0 would definitely find the beginning of the game ARR would find less engaging. However, what does help is the community. So people who are on FFXIV have now a lot of people willing to help I think curb it.
I mean often times when people tell others to play a long time often times they leave the other player to figure it out on their own and if you have people playing ALONE on an MMO because they have to catch up to their friends - that's terrible game design. Whereas FFXIV community wise do encourage others to help new people out, share their experiences. When you know your friend is going into a dungeon you have memories of and want to help them out - especially see their reaction... it helps the game a lot even through its low points of ARR.
It is a smarter game design that has people who have veterans around to help out in older content. FFXIV is certainly not perfect but at least it was wise enough to make sure their community from the most part is more welcoming and encourages vets to play with newer people.
Even though I don't play as much these days, there's times I hear someone in a friend's Free Company (Guild) mention they're going into old content and it's like "Ooh I'll help" because you remember that dungeon/raid and want to see their reaction. Or it could be wanting to help out because you remember a group that DIDN'T want to help and you want to give your fellow player a more positive experience.
It's kind of a paradox though.
When ARR released... it was just ARR. Yes, it dragged on a bit, but there wasn't that much to do. Finish the story and then... level other classes? That was pretty much it. No housing, only the first coil for raids, no crystal tower (2.1) and so on. You had to wait for more content, so the story was paded.
Then every patch was actualy episodic. Yes, it's a slug to do the MSQ for the 2.1 to 3.0 part now, but it was not designed to be experienced in one sitting in the first place.
So yes, it would make sense to go back and trim the unnecessary parts and streamline everything a bit... not because it was bad when it was released, but because it doesn't makes as much sense today in the greater context. But when it released, it made perfect sense.
Also, the game added early content later. Real content, like the golden saucer, not just endgame. Starting the game today is very different (and better) than when it released.
I kept hearing that FF didn't get good until level 30. Personally, I think it picks up pretty nicely at 10 when you have access to crafting. That's when the game just begins to bloom. What happens at 30 is big, sure, but it's hardly the only big thing that has happened up to that point. There are quite a few unlocks before that, and each one is a delight. The first 10 levels went by quick enough, but even as quick as they were, I was having my doubts from 1 to 9. 100 hours? FF hardly needs 100 hours to grab you, so long as you're open to being grabbed. By the time your 40, the story really kicks in hard, and if you stop and realize during the main quest that there ARE a ton of other things you COULD be doing, it's pretty amazing, really.
Yeah, that is why I don't think FFXIV falls into this trap though a lot of veterans probably think it does. If you don't enjoy ARR at all, you probably won't enjoy the expansions either. Yeah the expansions are an improvement, but they will not completely change the mind of someone who really did not enjoy the early content.
@@Plainsburner I might have mentioned that I'm new to the game. Even so, from what I've seen from the trailers it's easy to trust what you're saying here. It looks like nothing is completely game changing, and I'm really glad about that, because I'm loving what the game IS.
the issue with naysayers about XIV is they listen to people who havent done ARR since it launched, shit all over the experience. ARR has been trimmed about three different times, and the current incarnation is after the most recent trim in 5.3. honestly people wont be satisfied until they just remove the story altogether. hopefully SE stops listening to them and leaves ARR as it is. I cant stop people from coloring new players perception by saying its a slog, sadly enough.
To me ARR is good and i like read and do sidequest for more lore and explore and doing other thinks chat with ppl and hangout. Thats the point of a MMORPG !!
Games with the 100hour intro like Blackdesert keeps its player base at the first 2 hours just from battle mechanics. Games like FFXIV wants to keep their new player interested in the first 2 hours from the storyline. The problem is, lots of players don't read game texts.
Doesn't FFXIV have more players than BDO though?
Black desert has nice combat but the story is so lame I stop playing it because the story.
The problem is MMOs like WoW and FFXIV weren't made as they are right now. The "bad early game" content were great at the time they were introduced. It would take a massive development effort to make them up to par with an up to date endgame.
However, developing a new game with a bad entry experience is either bad development or a bad business practice if the primary objective is to sell your way through it.
When it comes to MMOs, people have just to accept that old content is old and not everything ages well.
The modern way of making an mmorpg is trash tho, i liked the older systems.
This comes from the perspective of a Tenno who used to(still have a hard time) hate games that had anything to do in space, they've never been my Cup O' Tea.
The whole thing with the 100h mark. It's just basics that your skills and knowledge within the game will increase with time and everyone with a mind knows that. Even the devs knows it and that's why they are making their player base to go through with it. Expecting us to like their game that they put their hard work hours into. Hoping that we actually liked it and decided to stick around and play once in a while which is what warframe really is all about in the first place, casual gameplay. Breeze through the game on your own pace, at your own time.
When it comes to warframe however. 100h would be an understatement depending on if your interpretations of when It might get better. But way before the 100h mark you should have realized by then that there are timers you can adapt to. Where there is timers, there will also be calculations. *no spoilers*
To make things more entertaining in wf I'd highly encourage the new players to grab a [Smeeta Kavat] asap as they make everything a lot more.. Let's just say more. Infact I encourage anyone to grab a companion when gaming because nothing becomes boring when you have your own preference of buff selected pixel-companion, accompanying on your adventure. If you decide to play Bugframe that is.
final fantasy has sorta slow starts but its all very story involved so its both intentional and mostly okay due to the build up needed to make their stories really satisfying.
The story is cringe weaboo shite.
@@cosmancho2959 And your example of a good story?
@@kalabhitimisuki9473 W3, Bloodborne. Dragon age Origins, Mass Effect Trilogy, Swtor story classes are also far superior to ff14.
"sorta slow" now thats the biggest understatement of the century
@@cosmancho2959 to you
I didn't pay attention to ARR the first time through and then made an Alt and did pay attention. I actually really enjoyed it. I just wish they would redub the ARR content with the new VAs but that will never happen.
Yeah when I started in February I really wished that they would polish up ARR more since it's literally the thing everyone goes through to get to the later expansions. But realistically I think they are swamped as it is making endwalker and FF16
But we can dream
@@kristopher4557 I just adore the expansion voice cast and find Sam Riegel as Alphinaud incredibly jarring.
If they had the budget that WoW does (or at least closer to it), then they might be able to do that but at the moment it would take time an d money away from the new expansion and content. That's just MMOs in general though.
Definitely wish they redub ARR.
I've definitely told people to play longer in games. Persona 5, awesome as it is, has a very slow start, for seeeeeeveral hours.
If you knew anything about all the games persona 1, 2is 2ep,3. 4 you would know they are SLOWBURNERS, stop complaining about popular franchises without doing research
Lol. Well, guess you proved their points in the video.
@@battlerushiromiya205 That has nothing to do with the fact that what he says is still right.
Persona games are slow as fuck at the start (tho personally Person 5 feels pretty alright in terms of pacing, except for some restrictions early) you are literally confirming it.
There is clearly ways to make the early game of all the persona games a bit more interesting, exciting and less slow burny.
Its just how it is.
I didnt really mind the pacing in persona 5, i kinda got hooked right away.
@@brosephstinson1297 fair point i never disagreed what im saying is they are popular for being slowburners, and going at their own pace. If it aint broke dont fix it.
The post arr use to be over 100 quests. The segment with Tataru was so drawn out and bad about tea leaves literally tramatized me over how many times I did it and I have memory issues due to a medical condition. Them cutting out the back and forth made it go from taking like a 20 hour sprint if you didnt want to put up with it to literally half. Ironically many people including myself on characters bought a skip once you got to the post quests till recent. I am so glad it is fixed.
The fact he uses Warframe as a gameplay is gold. That game takes forever to get good and has a steep learning curve, simply because new players go throe almost unchanged experience. They suffer the same early game vets played just worse because of all the new stuff piled on top of that. The game has black belt in withholding crucial information, expecting you to just figure it out or know from the start. And not explaining anything properly or at all. Better get comfty reading a lot of wiki every time you log in or asking questions all the time.
I can't even pick up my account anymore because I've been out of it for at least 3 expansions
I think there is a difference between slow and engaging and boring and tedious as well. Objectively a game should be slower at the beginning but what's important is where it starts and how it allows a player to progress. I completely agree with Asmon when he said ARR is fine. I would only tell a new player going into the genre that ARR is slow and heavenward picks up, but I wouldn't give that disclaimer to a seasoned MMO player.
Took 100 seconds for me to fall in love with ffxiv, that was only 4 days ago.
Prolly cuz you saw cat girl boobies on character creation. 😂
@@Zharina never me 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I uninstalled it after 24 hours, wasn’t interested in the story
@@czsup8967 what a shame, ain’t for everyone.
warrior of light
As a guy who played ARR in it's release date, I never thought as if it was dragging too much to develop the plot. I mean, every patch was released in an interval of about three months. And it was cool to unlock new stuff. Every patch I was like "OMG!! Where I unlock the new dungeons?! Give it to me!" by the way, this is somewhat of a complain I have with Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers ... If you count, A Realm Reborn still have more dungeon than any of the following expansions and it's still decreasing in numbers. I'm afraid it will be even fewer in Endwalker...
I showed a friend who joined more recently a chart I made, just showing side by side the dungeons released with patches. In ARR they had the pattern of 1 original, 2 hardmode dungeons per patch, however they were all sidestories, with the exception of Snowcloak and KotL. Still, that was 15 dungeons in the "expansion" patch cycle. In Heavensward that reduced to 1 each down to a total of 10, but they also made most of the original ones relevant to the story rather than just having them unlocked as a sidequest. In Stormblood they lessened even more and went to a 1 - 2 -1 - 2 - 1 with only the first and last patch dungeon having msq relevance, reducing the number of patch release dungeons to 7, the patches that had 2 releases were the only ones featuring a hardmode dungeon. But It's Stormblood, it was kinda meh anyhow... Then Shadowbringers came and released 1 dungeon per patch (total of 5), with each being tied into the story.
It's fascinating to see the progression. If you pay attention to what other stuff they released, things like Diadem, PotD, Eureka... they seem to aim to diversify the content to beyond just dungeons & running roulettes, while making the dungeons more meaningful from a story perspective. I doubt they'll go below 1 dungeon a patch, cause that'd be hard to justify, so we can expect at least 5 dungeons over endwalker's patch cycle, maybe more if they bring back some hard mode dungeons - which were missing in Shadowbringers but that's reasonable, we were in another realm. We're reasonably at the lowest number of dungeons per patch cycle, it can only go back up from here - or stay as new status quo.
(Note I never counted the 3 max level dungeons that are in the x.0 version, 1 story finale and the initial expert roulette. these have remained consistent in each expansion)
ARR needs much faster catchup mechanics. It’s a grind to catch up to the current content
some of the issues with in particular the 3 dungeons per patch was the quality of the dungeons. there was almost always that one that became dread/take significantly longer to complete than the others and tanks/healers would just quit if they got it on roulette.
many of these dungeons much later received nerfs (pharos, etc)
that being said, I do miss the continuation of the side stories of the HM dungeons
and I think a cool 3rd iteration would be to reverse the flow. after a 2nd (hm) clearing of a location, administration of the locations defenses is given to the player to organize and setup npcs to defend the location from mobs [stronghold defense]
Having also played ARR on it's release, I would agree with this. Also, something that people often overlook or aren't aware of, ARR was a game that was planned, developed and released in about two years. Two years. How many modern games out there have an entire development cycle that short? Could it have been better on release? Sure, it also could have been far worse (looking at you 1.0). ARR was great in the context of creating a game that bridged the gap from the fire that came before, to the birth of a new one.
doesnt the expansions have more raids, and raid quest chains?
I’m 30, a professional, and I have two kids. I play about 10-12 hours a week. I shoot for two hours a day of me time after the kids are asleep.
The first day in that cold November when I first logged in (after constant server d/c's), I fell in love with WoW. The moment I entered the world. THE MOMENT. That opening intro and music got me right there. Didn't even have control of my toon yet and I was hooked.
Pacing in storytelling can be difficult. Harder in gaming then in literature, but it's absolutely essential. I thought it was perfect in ARR, but then again, I've been a Final Fantasy fanboy since even The Death And Return of Superman was even a twinkle in Mike Morhaime's eye.
it's kind of sad that we live in such a work-oriented world that 100 hours is too much
Too much? A full-time work week is 40 hours minimum- ideally five days of 8 hours shifts. 100 hours is more than double what some people work, so if a game can't attract you within that time frame what is it if not unnecessary amounts of labor?
@@vividao4123 You're misinterpreting my comment. I'm not defending the game. My comment was directed toward society and most people's way of life. There are over 300 hours in a couple weeks, but most people can't squeeze in 100 hours because they're working all the time. Therefore it's kind of sad, if you wish the majority of people in society had more free time to do the things they love outside of work.
mid 30's dad here. if i give you $5 will you get to the point already?
Warframe has always been a big ''A'' shape in terms of fun over the course of time, starts boring, then it gets fun, back to boring. Take it from someone with 1000 hours, the game is fun for what it is, but there's an innate problem with the game because the core gameplay loop is just not diverse enough.
The warframe steam achievement is dumb because it's a free game on steam that most people will end up putting on their library, but never play. It would be very different if the game had a cost or only counted players that actually launched the game.
After 100 hours even kidnapped starts to love kidnapper.
Whoever conducted that study of gamers clearly wasnt looking at MMO raiders or Rust players, I find it kind of funny their target demographic in the study was men in their 30's with kids.
"average" is a wrong aggregation of values imo. They need to show the median
I don't think they *targeted* that demographic if you know what I mean.
I feel like if your going to have an early game as long as ff14, most of the dialog needs to be voice acted. Its so hard to force myself to sit there and read paragraphs of text, especially as a new player. But i never skip the voice acted scenes, cuz its just more enjoyable to sit through. GW2 does this very well imo. Most of the dialog is voice acted, and it actually forces you pay attention. I really love the GW2 early gameplay.
There is a balance to this. Not everything needs to be voice acted. I like 14s approach where important parts are voice acted. If everything is voice acted, then I'm more likely to skip text, especially in ARR where they talk weirdly slow.
When I tried genshin Impact, everything had voice acting. But I never felt the dialogue deserved voice acting when the story didn't feel like it was going anywhere or important.
Men all mmos need lore, story etc, and thats is the point of have texts to read and enjoy. Why are you playing a mmorpg if you dont like the lore. Thats way are mmorpgs, and in other hand other games lile fornitw cod, and whatever where is only to play and play withot context.
@@fervelozart3284 No one plays mmorpg because they are interested in a good story dude. Stop confusing RPG's with mmorpgs. MMO's have a story that can be good or bad, but no one plays/quits playing because of it, like they would with a typical rpg. The main reason people play mmo's is because they want to make friends and have social groups, and have a status in a world full of fantasy where they can RP and have fun. Not cuz "Oh wow this story is so great! time to pay 15 bucks a month!".
The people who care about a good story game arnt looking for MMO's. They are playing the witcher 3 and other rpgs.
@@pit32 agree
@@fervelozart3284 people are interested in good lore, that's why people read paragraphs of text in, say, FF6, 7, etc, but basically nobody likes ARR
I actually like FFXIV progression. It starts slow, you are constantly getting new abilities, after few hours of game you can start going to dungeons... I appreciated how FF handles player progression.
People are mostly worried new players won't like the story. Which is honestly just overhyped mediocre fantasy story which drags for way too long and where every main character, except for one, wears a plot armor, so there are no stakes.
Completely agree, although the dungeons and raids are really fun.
Subbed at “I’m not interested in labeling myself.” I always support a fellow stoic man.
Warframes story doesn't even begin at 80 hr in for a completely new player, even longer if you experience a wireframe moment.
Well the thing is, a lot of the hardcore player base don't want you to get good in 2 hours. Especially in the pay to win games. They want this gap they have paid for while you should still sit in the dust and admire them. The problem with this is. It kills the game often enough very fast.
There's a difference between "it gets good" and "you get good".
You barely need any skill or resources to "get good" in Warframe. And it's specifically engineered that way by Digital Extremes. That's why the PVP aspect of the game has been a barren wasteland for years.
Once you've seen enough you quickly figure out how to do everything at a glance and you can tell when new changes or pieces of gear will be worth investing into or discard fodder. And for those not as knowledgable, content creators cover this type of stuff instantly because they make a living out of it.
Digital Extremes mostly cater to the mid range players, because they're the ones who are most prone to spending IRL money and whiteknight the shit out of the game once they're heavily invested. Been there myself actually, as fuckin' ashamed as I was to have done that, I can admit it now.
Funnily enough, there's a lot of the shitty kind of competitiveness in the coop parts of Warframe, which is over 90% of the game. Admittedly not too many lash out, but I've had my fair share of people spouting nonsense like "I beat you to the mission extraction point by ten seconds, you're worthless!" and being dead serious. Meanwhile I was killing every enemy in sight and not saying a word 🤦♂️🤷♂️🤡
@@HejC8xmRICWgUCj1dhPvhTFX Well i was playing World of Warships for a long time. Long time players do not want new players to have Tier 10 ships immediately at the start of the game. They want you to grind through 9 shitty Ships because every one else had to do the same. When the new players have their first T10 ship, they see people play mostly only super rare overpowered ships which you can not buy anymore. So new players wasted time and maybe even money and in the end they are still getting destroyed in the matches, because they do not have this one super rare ship from 2016 which was removed from the shop because it was so OP. But guess which ship the Veteran players are still playing? And the super greatest newest ships are locked behind Steel currency. You can only get this currency by playing clan battles or ranked, but you have to win a lot. You must be the 0,1 Percent to get the currency on regular basis. Or you whale SUPER HARD. Buying the 130 Dollar 1/4 year season pass. Then you still have to grind day in day out to get the steel at the end of the seson pass. This are 520 Dollars over a year for around 9000 Steel. And the best steel ship, an aircraft carrier costs 32000 steel. And boy is it strong. Even an infant can nuke Battleships from orbit with it. And Vetetans WANT the game to be like this. And because of this the game is dieing.
@@Navinor NGL it's incredibly useful to have different takes from other games like World of Warships.
We've had our own fair share of elitism like the type you're mentioning.
*One* example is a couple years ago we got a new weapon in Warframe, Hema, that needed a shitload of resources to research in clans. The cost would exponentially go up depending on the ammount of people in the clan. But there was one specific resouce that's always been troublesome to grind for, Mutagen Samples. The smallest clan would need 5k of those, the biggest clans would need 500.000.
At the time me and a couple other clan members organized ourselves and farmed for it hard. We got the needed ammount in a day or two with a full squad meant for griding, resouces boosters that double the drops and so on. For reference, I currently have 3919 of those, and I've been playing the game for six years.
Digital Extremes never reduced the research costs of that item, their reasoning being "so we can respect the time players spent farming those Mutagen Samples". TBH I couldn't give two shits about that, early adopters always get the short end of the stick anyway and have had so for years. They should reduce the cost for other clans who haven't farmed that yet. No excuses.
*Another* example is a resource they introduced to the game a while ago, universal medallions. There's other type of medallions, and each help you improve the relations with 6 different types of syndicates we have in the game (each gives you weapons and stuff). There's also a PVP syndicate, but again, PVP is a barren wasteland, so what people usually do to increase that PVP syndicate "standing" is to organize and then go "you kill me, get your daily standing, then I kill you and get my daily standing".
Now, on release, Universal Medallions are quite hard to farm for up to this day, they can only drop as a reward from a specific game mode called Disruption, and each would increase any syndicates standing of your choice, INCLUDING the PVP one. That *apparently* didn't bode well with the twelve people still playing PVP.
In response to that (must've been a VERY VERY vocal crowd I guess 🙄) Digital Extremes made it so Universal Medallions would not give you PVP standing anymore even though Universal Medallions are quite hard to grind for unless you go out of your way to do so. And then you still rely on on a 5% drop chance you only get access to once you've been playing a specific game mode for at the very least 20 minutes in which you must succesfully defend at least 3 to 4 objectives per round (there's 4 per round) to even get a chance at that 5% drop rate. You can only get drops from loot-table C (there's A, B and C), where the Universal Medallion can drop from, past 3 rounds.
General consensus was we would've all grinded the shit out of that game mode for days on end in order to get the goodies from the PVP syndicate (I don't want to derail this too much, but long story short, since PVP has been historically based on Peer to Peer connections, the one hosting usually has the upper hand, then there's year long broken interactions people with money or a lot of time in get access to they can one shot you across the map with. This in itself drives people away from PVP a lot, like you were saying).
I personally would've done that as well NGL. Since Digital Extremes made that Universal Medallion not so universal, the game mode ended up being pretty deserted once you've grinded the few useful drops the game mode has, and aside from people that wants to flex or content creator clickbait. This is because the game mode has enemies that are tankier than regular ones who rush to destroy those defense objectives, and people use those to test builds in long runs (Although in practice you can make those bullet sponges stop in their tracks for 4 seconds by spamming a tactic involving an item you can grind for or purchase for real money, as long as you have somewhat decent damage, they'll never get to the defense target regardless).
@@HejC8xmRICWgUCj1dhPvhTFX I thought those "race to extraction" stuff is simply a hidden subconcious game we all play and the "winner" gets to enjoy the short-lived and meaningless pride. Never thought someone would actually trash talk you for not getting to extraction faster than them
In FFXIV, I find early gains interesting and engaging. It does get better later on, but it's a move from good to great, not mediocre to good.
exactly, i started free trial one year ago, for me was on level 30 that i have the most great necessity of buying the game, because i was loving it so much
The biggest problem I have with early FF14 are its dungeons, because they... had ideas that ultimately just did not pan out. Mazelike dungeons especially.
dunno, some low level duties, like Crystal Tower or 60 level raids, are so dull, I want to leave everytime
I actually get annoyed who people say a game I like gets good 100 hours in. Using FFXIV as an example, while it does get better later, it's still an amazing game at the start. I love the start of the game. I will always argue against people who say that about a game a like. Because that implies the first 100 hours aren't good. I view saying "It gets good after 100 hours" as an attack on a game not a compliment
another problem with the 100 hour argument is that it really only applies to player who play consistently and are in search of a new main game. Most people that play consistently already have a main game, but are on a break from it right now. Therefore even if they play 5 hours a day it probably wont be enough to reach 100 hours before they are back to their main game.
Ignoring a well documented criticism of the game is just baffling. I think the early game is okay, but to act like there's 0 room for improvement to keep new players engaged is laughable.
I recently started FFXIV and I’m finishing up ARR.
The new player experience is pretty bad. I’ve kept with it because of the story and I’ll keep going because I can push trough endless fetch quests etc.
"It gets good after 100 hours." Me:"Oh, I never meet someone with Stockholm syndrome before."
Hey, new player here and I'm 40ish hours into the game and yes, it's a fucking slog. The best thing a friend of mine did was making a summary of all of the important stuff so I could skip cutscenes, I'm actually amazed on how much filler there is.
The *ONLY* game I'll use that argument is for Monster Hunter, the beginning parts are always slow because you have to learn the weapons, memorize the maps a little, study the monsters weakness, ect. It took me a while to click with works but it did I was hooked for life
problem with mmos with huge maps is that your W finger hurts after a 30 mins of walking, but the positive point is with fast travel is you miss a big amount of content and immersion.
2:20 I genuinely think there is only one case where a game is not that fun at the begining but is actually a masterpiece if you see it through to the end, Nier Automata. And it's baked into the narrative and overall theme of the game, this idea that you have to go through the same stuff over and over again. The game is also vague about what's going on and why anything you're seeing is important. But damn, when the game finally hits that third arc, the feels open up and you start making all the logical connections and you're super invested.
5:44 asmon you dink he said the average gamer, not you and your harcore gamer friends who play way more than the average person.
With WoW, for me, I enjoyed dungeons and nothing else. Once I reached the Shadowlands content I got bored, I would make an alt and do levelling dungeons again. It was too much work and a grind to get into mythics or raids, so I never bothered. FF is much more enjoyable to me and I've taken my time with A Realm Reborn, doing all the side stuff, the extreme trials and having a blast. I'm near the end now and will start Heavenward soon.
I don’t know, the beginning of Warframe was fun for me. It was simple and active. But I agree that it is no way near masterpieces such as later quests like Second dream, The war within, The sacrifice, The new war. These are just art.
"I'm not interested in labelling myself" is a mindset a lot more ppl should have these days.
Games need to hook me in the first few hours to get me to keep playing it.
Also 8h 27 min A WEEK for the average gamer? 8h+ is what I usually play on a free day - or 3-4h even if I do have work or other stuff to do.
I think for the common 'gamer' (with other work and stuff) 2-4h a day is probably the overall average.
You gotta remember what average means. It includes the lowest of the low too. I think 8-10 hours a week is definitely fair. Not everyone plays daily, so they put in 2-4 maybe 2 or 3 times a week.
I like how this guy tries to adopt the concept of the video to the content he tries to tell. Repeating and paraphrasing things over and over (possibly not on purpose) just to clear things up at the end to undermine the argument.
Because if he stuck with his true opinions I dont think people would like it. Sadly ...
Thought i was the only one that noticed that
I was getting annoyed at all the repetition and thinking it ironic, then the payoff at the end :-)
Oh man, I didn't catch that. haha. smart
It takes aproximately 100 hours to learn a fighting game, maybe more if a game isn't new and everyone has more exp with it
It literally takes 100 hours for fighting games to be good, unless you enjoy getting bodied all the time
That's why fighters have added easy combos so new players won't quit so fast
Can't really compare this to a PvP setting though. I don't think it took 100 hours to know how fighting games work, mastering it however does take 100hr, and to hone it further to compete with other players take infinite amount of time, because it's a skill cap that just keep increasing, and it's not just you against the game, but you against the player.
So you don't learn the game, you learn your opponent.
Thank you putting in that time to re-record your content to put out the best possible outcome. As someone who still absolutely struggles to get into final fantasy, I’ll give it another go
Dude, don't play FF just because of FOMO.
The one game I can say for certain that is worth suffering through 100 hrs of bad gameplay is Kingdom Hearts 358 / 2 days
In summary, the monotonous, repetitive gameplay the impression necessary that you are working out the primary characters workday and that the little bit of cutscene after every mission where you get to enjoy your time with your coworkers is setup brilliantly so let the payoff of the tragedy at the end of the game can hit all the harder. It's very hard to do a tragedy in a video game actually have it work
"I quit skyrim on the wagon ride."
I thought I was alone
People hating FF for no reason, I was blown away by how good ARRs story is. Final fantasy gets better over time. But it starts out good, it doesn't get good at 100 hours, it gets better progressively over time.
Men all mmos need lore, story etc, and thats is the point of have texts to read and enjoy. Why are you playing a mmorpg if you dont like the lore. Thats the way supos mmorpgs to be, and in other hand other games lile fornitw cod, and whatever where is only to play and play without context.
@@fervelozart3284 MMORPG, to be more precise. I think a lot of it just comes down to many people are just naturally NOT the demographic for MMORPGs. MMORPG players are actually a pretty small subset of all gamers, obviously, Devs can make games appeal to non-MMORPG players, but then likely the end results will no longer be an MMORPG isn't it. The fact that in recent years a lot of widely popular games are those that don't rely on character progression is a testament to this, MMORPGs are a niche market. But then if you are making those games, you are not making an MMORPG...
Im actually addicted to Warframe rn and I'm glad I started over on PC cause they definitely made the whole story experience so much better. I'm having fun seeing all the new content and I just worked my ass off to build a Necromech. I keep thinking about how this game just keeps getting better but tbh I don't think it takes any time to "get good" it really just starts as a good 3rd person action game then turns into Hyper Monster Hunter EX
That is where I think the video should have been getting at. If people really don't enjoy the beginning then it probably won't be worth playing 100 hours for it to get better, the game doesn't need to have everyone enjoy it. I personally was not a fan of warframe from the start, but my friends played it so I tried to stick it out but it just never hooked me. But that is just cause I don't like Arcady looter shooters, not that it was a bad game.
Warframe is a great game, especially when you still have a ton of frames and weapons to acquire. I miss it, just wish there was an actual “endgame” for those of us that have done mostly everything
@@swingingfordearlife I thought the endgame was sitting there for hours till you get a trade offer
@@marllonluizsilva2556 No idea what mog is but I’ve just been on and off the game for years and I still hear trading is true endgame
The "It Gets Better After 100 HOURS..." point is kind of true tho. When I started playing Lost Ark I found it to be a ok game with ok combat now after 300+ hours of playing the game I love the game and the combat, Stockholm syndrome hit me hard :)
As a Warframe player I constantly see high level players complaining about early learning curves and difficulty. They all hate it and want it so be explained better to new people cuz the veterans are essentially a free pass for new players who have zero idea how to play the game
I think there has to be some focus on returning players too, for instance I stopped playing wow in Cataclysm and recently picked it back up. My main was level 42 after the squish and I honestly felt lost since so many expansions have passed. The game did not provide me any context on the story so far since I left. Now I’m level 52 and I just feel like I’m grinding out quests to get to 60 to try some of the raids that look pretty cool. I still have no idea why I’m fighting with these angel things.
I couldn't get into One Piece. I watched some 20 episodes. For someone trying a show out and not digging it, 20 episodes is a VERY generous attempt. But if I tell any One Piece fan about my attempt, they get angry and tell me if I didn't watch to at least ep 180 or something like that, I didn't give it a fair try, or that's where it gets good. If you ask me, if a show takes almost 200 episodes to get good, it's bad. And telling someone to watch something they don't like for over 100 episodes is ridiculous.
Even crazier than that, some people even told me if I didn't watch every single episode that ever released my opinion isn't valid. Stupid lol
The worst one of this is Naruto...it's stupid something like 50%+ of all the episodes throughout both Naruto and Shippuden are filler...that's HALF of your time being wasted by episodes that don't fucking matter because they're never going to go anywhere. I was like "you know what, it's would already take me like a month of non-stop binging Naruto for like 8 hours every day to see the whole thing...I've not got that time...screw this.
I’ve never read or watched One Piece, but from what I heard from my friends, they said the anime pales in comparison to the manga.
@@luketfer i just skip the filler. Its mostly garbo. But bleach did a full filler arcs in the middle of an arc, twice if I remember right. Now that was some bs when you were watching weekly.
@@matthewharrington420 The filler arc in the middle of the Arrancarr arc really irritated me.
You watched the anime, that was your mistake.
Read the manga instead.
"If I keep my hand on a lit stove for 24 hours it will eventually stop hurting, but that doesn't mean I didn't cause considerable damage to my body"
-Ben Yahtzee Crosshaw (on one of his Final Fantasy reviews)
After this quote do you really need a video explaining it?
Ideal example is Foxhole. You can play for just few hours, and make an impact on the world (on ongoing war), plus meet new people. It's ingenious.
Excellent and unique concept for a game. Foxhole is awesome.
Too bad foxhole gets worse the more you play it
@@Ebony_Darkness this is too true. if you play foxhole just play in short bursts with friends over time and dont get too involved.
You can also play for just a few hours and make absolutely no impact on anything
But MMOs have another factor - playing online with friends. Being able to play with my friends completely overwrites a slow beginning to an MMO.
Now that's an argument that has some merit. Which would I prefer to play; a good game alone or with strangers, or a mediocre game with my friends? Indeed, it's not that simple a decision.
Some game probably "Get better after 100 hours" because you get access to higher level areas or content that is level or story locked, like ff14, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, it's meant to keep the player base playing the game, and ff14 has a great story to hook you up and make you want to see what's gonna happen next, not to mention the rewards you get along the way, armors, mounts, minions, the final aether current that let's your mount fly in new areas making moving around much easier. It depends if you are or not willing to play for those 100 hours to see if it actually gets better, or ofc you can watch videos and see the advanced content and decide if you want to get there yourself.
The later content in FFXIV is better than the early content because the dev team got better, but for most people the early game is good and then it gets better. It's the difference between "it gets good after a 100 hours" and "it gets even better after a 100 hours". If new players are having fun already, we don't need to argue that it gets better because these new players are staying, at least for a while, anyway.