Radar vs AIS - which is better for collision avoidance? - Sailing Q&A 32
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2019
- Both radar and AIS (Automatic Identification System) are used to avoid collisions at sea, but which is better? Would you choose one over the other?
In this week's extra we discuss the pros and cons of each system and attempt to answer this contentious question! If you like what we do...
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Love the ending. Lol
Well done
😁
Couldn't agree with you guys more!! Other points for both systems
RADAR:
1. You can see land at night or in heavy fog so you can navigate into port on RADAR alone.
2. You can get navigational fixes using RADAR.
3. Using a RADAR 'fence' to alert you if ANYTHING is in the water ahead (or behind..)
4. Picks up storms and squalls so you can prepare/get out of the way
AIS:
1. Keep track/find your 'buddy' boat or a friendly boat you added to your list years ago.
2. We've noticed a bunch of crab pot strings tagged with AIS beacons lately. (this would be a great thing to see more of)
Loved the outtakes!!
Totally agree with all you say, as usual, but I was surprised you didn't mention radar's ability to pick up squalls, especially at night! My favourite thing about it! And eyes being number one is so true. Fishermen don't usually have AIS, and they often don't have radar reflectors either so as not to be "seen where the fish are"!
Yes, indeed. One of our Patreons reminded us of this great benefit too. Can't believe we omitted it, Wayne 😔
@@followtheboat My wife and I arej hoping to follow your lead from Malaysia back to Vancouver, so can't thank you enough for all the insights you have brought and continue to bring. We eagerly look forward to every one of your videos. Fair winds!
Like the late great chef Justin Wilson, I'm a belt and suspenders guy. AIS, radar, and someone on watch. That way you don't hit that tree trunk or overboard shipping container.
As a non-sailor, non-fix it person. Who live on Kauai, HI. I highly enjoy your show. One day do I sail to the South Pacific? Not today but your channel keeps the dream alive.👍🌴😷❤️🙏
Your out takes are worth the price of admission. Too funny, Thanks also for the very helpful and critically important information on the subject. You two are a blessing.
Thank you for that excellent video report. Although I'm not sailing and I am just a tech freak I find the quality just excellent.
Excellent overview of the strengths and weaknesses of both systems. I like the idea of having them both and being able to overlay them on my chartplotter.
Whatever saves your skin in each situation is really the best choice. Having the boat equipped with both would be a God send. Happy sailing.
Well said, Jim. 👍
You guys are awesome! I love the outtakes, and of course the plethora of useful info. Thank you much
what a wonderful video, so informative for a beginner like me. Thank you for sharing
Another great vid guys! If I had to choose, I would also go for the radar. Given the pros and cons explained in the video there's another one I think where radar might also be helpful. Detecting squalls, especially at night when you can't visually see them approaching. Last year I crossed the English channel in a small yacht with AIS but without radar and when we were approaching Bret TSS (0300am) a thick fog settled and we couldn't see anything. We crossed the TSS without seeing a single target on AIS and that was very nerve racking. I guess if we had radar... I would feel much more confident and comfortable. So... definitely radar.
radar will get you into port in heavy fog. something i didn't hear mentioned. i would choose both but if only one i would choose radar.
Yes, that's a given but we should have mentioned it anyway. Cheers, Michael👍
When I was a kid my dad taught me to run our inlet with radar and it saved my butt more times than I care to admit. I could damn near get in our slip with our old CRT Furuno setup. Chart plotters, GPS and AIS are great but none of them can do what radar can. I've been if fog so thick you couldn't see a bridge 40ft away, but with radar I could thread my way through the 20ft opening under the bridge.
Your eyes and proper lookout, the best method.
I'm late to this party but I subscribed purely because of the outro
Excellent presentation. The main factor for many sailors will be budget, cost of equipment, power supply/amps drain, etc.. Like most safety questions the key is risk assessment.
I passed through low lying islands at night in the Red Sea with radar. Compared the radar images with paper charts (remember those?) knew exactly where I was. 👌
I am planning on a catamaran purchase in the next 60 days. Plan was to have both along with SSB radio to cross Atlantic as I am probably to by my catamaran in France or England. Your video helped with the decision process. Thanks SO much for the insightful information. Cheers!!!
I would add an Iridium Go with the best weather forecasting from PredictWind for that crossing. Fair winds! Liz 👌
That ending was hysterical! I’m with Jamie, I would pick radar first but I am very pleased to have both, cheers
👍👍
Your extras always provide great information, thanks. I hope to answer this question for myself one day soon! Thumbed
I love our AIS. Seeing lights on the horizon no longer raises the questions of “how far away” and “how close are we going to get”.
I know the rules of sail vs. motor vessels on the sea but here in DK we also say joy give way for commercial sailing …….. i choose radar every time since it can pinpoint your location together with a sonar and a real chart if your plotter goes down for one reason or another
Thanks. This was a very interesting and informative vlog, not to mention entertaining (with those bloopers) 👍👍
What a great video (apart from the annoying music) I learned a lot! Thanks!
Awesome, thank you for putting this bit of info together.
Very good and informative old chap. I have been marooned on a deserted for 15 years so I was ignorant of these new fangled gadgets. I will be getting me an AIS. I used to used my nautical dingo. He had huge ears and his nose would point at any ship and he would whimper if I didn't pay attention. He is in K9 heaven now tho. My new dogs are useless.
Love the outtakes! You two are such gems 😘
Well said, its awesome that you stated it is not really (or at least should not be) either situation. Both should be used if possible. Now for those on tight budget, I can see someone wanting to know which one to get and which will be more helpful. But they should still plan to get both at some point, as both are advantageous. In the USN, we ALWAYS used both ... plus other things. Of course they used to navigate via DR too, with backup being GPS to ensure they had charted and were navigating correctly.
Both are great tools, and like everything, redundancy should always be looked at. Having other alternatives in place if and when something breaks or is not working as should.
A interesting video and well presented with lots of valid points. I have used both AIS and radar whilst in merchant navy and as a ships pilot. and now on my wee yacht. Given the choice I would go for radar stabilised with a compass as it give you a lot more than just collision avoidance and shows targets in real time not where it was x minutes ago but a transmitting AIS big bang for your buck especially on a yacht when electrical power limited.
A big topic but a few of my points of view are large ships as well as having to carry AIs have to have radar. Ships as well as yachts are big fans of AIS and as a result are not so focused on their radars as in the past radars were a primary tool for both navigation and collision avoidance were always well tuned and clutter controls used more effectively, now with gps, ais and electronic charts I have noticed when piloting ships their radars are not always set at their optimum performance and as such small targets such as yachts do not show up well if at all. I mention this as I feel that when one considers AIS one should consider a transmitting AIS over a receive only as you have a far greater chance of being spotted by a big ship in clutter or restricted visibility, ships officers are bogged down with paperwork and other duties and often set guard zones on radar and ais it is very common for a yacht to slip through a radar guard zone undetected but with ais you stand a much better chance of being detected. I agree defensive sailing the way to go but it is still easy to get caught out by ships and their speed. So my final choice would be radar stabilised with compass, a transmit/ receive AIS and lastly a receive only AIS. Also beware of marine traffic type internet services whilst great to see a general picture or to see if your set is transmitting can be seriously lagging in real time. Classic ending to video :)
Excellent explanation folks. Love your channel.
Good discussion point guys, we didn't have either and getting caught out twice now in thick fog is an horrible place to be. We asked radar or AIS on the "New & Learner sailor" Facebook group and we had mixed reports so we ended up buying both because like you rightly say, together they make a huge difference. Got to agree with Jamie, if only one choice it'd be radar.
Loved the outtakes by the way 😂
as always, very good videos, and loving the blooper/gag reel at the end
Brilliant vlog, especially the end😁😂
Incredibly informative 👍👌
All love, and best wishes to you 3, Claire and the girls, Berlin 😘 😘 😘 ✌ 👍
Great introduction to both Radar & AIS and my $0.02 worth added in....
- AIS units usually require a separate dedicated VHF antenna which *is* an additional expense but can also serve as a backup to your primary VHF should you have issues with it..
- Radar can be useful when double checking navigation against coastline features and can help you "visualize" incoming storms/squalls etc.
- AIS is obviously dependent on your "target" vessel(s) having their own transceiver installed and operating which as Liz pointed out, isn't always adhered to regardless of the regulations.
- Radar, no matter how "advanced" can give you spurious returns from waves or weather and it is possible that fibreglass boats can get lost in the clutter. So even if you aren't running Radar its a good idea to mount a Radar reflector to make sure you stand out on *their* screen.
Finally, the outtakes are fantastic! I'm waiting to see a full on "Dog's bollocks-esque" meltdown...
Thanks for those thoughts, Sean. Keep watching for a swearing breakdown, you know its gonna happen soon!
Great Episode! You guys really did your homework.
Luckily I do not have to choose between Radar and AIS, since my own boats and all the commercial vessels I work on have both. And I think all yachties should consider getting both, but it should be mandatory for all craft to have at least an AIS class B)
As you mentioned; A radar picks up a variety of objects and phenomenons (you didn't mention squalls, rip-tides and breaking waves). A Safety aspect is picking up signals from a SART (Search and Rescue Transponder). With a radar overlay on your chart plotter, you'll be able to check if your chart matches the actual coastline, buoys and other charted objects. Also picking up RACON (Radar Beacon on buoys,lighthouses and oil platforms) can help with navigation. Keep in mind that a radar is very accurate at determining distance, but could be a few degrees off, when it comes to bearing. Most radars might not detect the full 360 degrees around you, since there could be some blind spots, caused by mainly the mast. A lot of yachts have their radars fitted in front of the mast, which causes a blind spot of approximately 15 degrees behind you.
When getting an AIS, I would personally get a transponder (Class B). A receiver gives you the same information, but for commercial vessels it is so much easier to spot you, especially in a bit rougher conditions where the radar won't pick up on smaller objects. Fibreglass boats hardly reflect radar waves, and most radar reflectors not do what the manufacturers claim they do.
The range of an AIS transponder is greatly increased by using an antenna at the top of the mast. I personally use my VHF-antenna in combination with an antenna-splitter. As a backup I (will) have another VHF-antenna mounted on the solar arch, which I can plug into the splitter in case of malfunctioning of the main antenna (worst case scenario de-masting).
In case of piracy risk, there is an option on AIS-transponders to switch of transmitting and just receive data from other vessels. I never switched of an AIS in any situation, since I want the coalition-warships to be able to spot me and in case of emergency, you can also send messages to other stations (although I think that can only be done with AIS class A).
Loved the out-takes. Pure comedy! How long did it take to just shoot the raw footage for this video?
Fair winds and welcoming shores. SV Erasmus
Excellent and spot on. By the way fantastic wood carving of the chairs and cabinets. I see the art is not dead.
Unfortunately not our boat, Dennis! It's part of Batavia Marina, an incredibly beautiful building done out in the old Dutch colonial style with a sprinkling of Chinese influence.
Very informative. Thanks.
I love both Radar and Ais. AIS a little less, and I will explain why. Coast Guards use AIS to pick on sailboats for boardings. They can see the boat speed and the type of vessel, so they can determine they can better interdict a sailboat. Rather than chasing down a motor yacht that they might or might not be able to catch, they see a sailboat and then board you instead of a faster vessel. Some AIS devices have a privacy mode, and sometimes that is helpful.
Thank you for sharing
Yes, I'm guessing many military ships don't want the supposed enemy to know who or where they are!
Good stuff. Especially like fishing boats that don’t have AIS showing up on RADAR.
All good advice. As always!
Love the comparison and info presented here. We are just about done with a major refitting of our boat and we had to stop short of getting radar, a tower etc, so we wnt with a Vesper XB-8000 AIS unit, that will interface with all our onboard MFDs. Instead of radar, for now, we will just have to use our eyes! Great ending, lol. Thanks for all the video you post - we completely enjoy them all! Cheers.
I like how cargo ships communicate their destination port on AIS. That way you know where there are going to turn once they exit a channel.
Great and informative episode :) thanks
Nice work you two !!! Thanks for the education.
👌
Love the ending, shows us it's not so easy
Doppler Radar #1
F- it😁😁 that's the one lol love the ending for f- sakes😂🤣😂🤣
Fairwinds from the @captains.chair
😂👍
I like the radars that work with the AIS
I enjoyed this video. I really liked the outtakes
Lovely channel! Subscribed
Cheers, Tophan ✌️⛵
Very helpful, thank you.
Sailing the west coast of Australia the need for radar is very much diminished - no fog, all commercial vessels have AIS etc. So for us AIS was our first choice. Radar may be fitted shortly when we head back to Asia where it will be very useful for tracking vessels without AIS, weather/squall monitoring etc. One recent addition to the AIS suite of capability is the tracking of MOB. We are just purchaasing our personal AIS to compliment the PLBs. Our latest Raymarine plotter has what they term augmented reality. Targets or objects come to life and can be zoomed in and a 360 deg look had. But as you mention the old fashion eyeball MK1 is hard to beat.
Very helpful and interesting. For me, as a solo sailor, AIS seems to make more sense. The expense, current draw and interpretation challenges seem to argue for it. From what I've read, there is a significant risk from from coastal fishing boats that may not be operating AIS transponders (especially in the waters surrounding developing countries) but surely (I hope) the really big ships are and they're what scare me the most. I'll defer to you guys though when it comes to serious night passage making in the Southeast Asia.
There's no excuse not to have radar, you can pick up older units for next to nothing if you keep an eye out for one. Granted it might not be compatible with your GPS/plotter but the older units still show you what you cant see just fine. I still have a old Furuno that uses a CRT monitor and its perfectly capable of getting me in my inlet,under 2 bridges and will show all the channel markers just fine. The only downside is you have to have a chart/plotter handy to verify what you see for markers etc in strange waters. But I wont leave port without it.
I frequently see boats and ships, particularly fishing vessels, and racing sailboats, without AIS. This doesn't help avoid collisions if it's not installed or transmit is deliberately turned off. The good news is it's not an either, or solution. Having both is the way to go.
Thanks interesting video 👍
In the aircraft world this would equate to a Primary system ie Radar which transmits a signal and "listens" for a return and a secondary system IFF which is interrogated and transmits its data. Most aircraft have both and if I was sailing as you are I would like both and a person on watch. Declutter has been around almost as long as radar. Great video :-)
Great video. One quibble. Colregs mention "stand on" and "give way vessels" (not "stand off"). They also mention "keep clear."
Thanks for confirming that, Jack 👍
I worked in a radar intensive system in the Navy and you did not mention any of the big advantages. It can in real time give you a very correct speed and direction of the target. You can also see weather as it is developing if you know what to look at on the radar screen (most people think the weather information radar gives is just electronic chatter). If you have the antenna high enough on the mast you should be able to see vessels and other hazards well over 20 miles. AIS is nice as you can have the information in order to log it as the vessels name and such for record keeping purposes (especially if there is an type of incident) where you do not get that with radar. The more expensive radars are equipped with compensation programs for the variation of a mast so that can even be negated for a clean picture if you have the funds to purchase one of those (rather expensive). If you know how to read your radar picture you can even know the size of the vessel or object that you are seeing on the screen. It can and has picked up coconuts floating in the water on many occasions, not to mention logs and partially submerged objects like whales on the surface.
The many things that I have mentioned about what a radar can pick up is often confused with electronic chatter and overlooked by the sailing community. The issue of jamming someones radar is real, yet very unlikely unless you are painting some military vessel that does not want you to see them. The same can be said for Ais as it is also very prone to jamming and is much easier to jam. A good radar system has multiple frequencies that it uses and therefor is not as easily jammed (again rather expensive).
Love the bloopers! Not a sailor myself but if I had to choose, I'd say go with radar. AIS is cool but it depends on the other vessel having it and using it. Radar is completely under your control.
That's a very good point, Jon. In fact we did discuss this benefit if radar but it didn't make the final cut 😃
Well done
Thank you
Love the out takes, lol, real life!
Haha quality ending well done guys
For security reasons it is sometimes not a good idea to broadcast too much information about yourself. Radar wins in my book, but I wouldn't want to give up AIS.
I know the rules of the road, but in the open ocean I almost always find it easier to give up my right of way to large ships. I'm never in a hurry to get anywhere, and the gesture is always appreciated.
Well said 👍
Yeah, tracers work both ways. Why broadcast your position to the bad people?
@@nobody46820 - Tracers? We are cruiser's, not gunboat captains.
Radar, you can see through Fog and see squalls coming at night. AIS is a great tool though and worth every penny on a cruising boat.
Radar also helps seeing which way squalls are heading and helps you avoid them.
Ahoy Jamie, Liz & Millie. Another great episode full of useful info. My wife and I are only 6 months from our 1st long term cruise via sailboat. which leads me to ask..... How often, if ever, do you call up a ship and they speak zero English? How do you deal with that situation? Thanks for all you do to help educate us newbies. :)
As with aviation, English is the de facto language used for commercial shipping communication... which is lucky for we native English speakers! This doesn't always apply to private yachts or fishing vessels though... 🤔 Good luck with your adventure. Liz
And don’t forget that AIS won’t tell you where that poorly charted headland is, or which direction that squall is tracking, Radar for me please, it saved my bacon going into Kastelerizo one dark night.
Whenever I'm sailing in waters with large ships, I go by the old Chinese proverb of "Big boat go first. Little boat stay out of the way"... LOL
Content is valuable, but I stay for the out-takes!!
I had to make a choice and decided to install radar first. When sailing in fog, especially coming into a harbor, radar is worth every penny. Plan to get AIS when budget permits.
Yep, radar is your best friend in fog.
Interested in your view on picking up lobster pots. Tried this with my radar and even at it's highest setting and next door to a pot nothing showing. Real pain when leaving at night as always need someone on the bow with a torch until we are clear of the coast or in deep water. Do you have some magic approach to this or is there some adjustment I can make to my radar? Also agree on the squall comment earlier for radar which is fantastic to see direction and if it is dissipating. Also worth a mention is the refresh rates for AIS which makes the CPA jump all over the place. As far as changing direction where the CPA is uncomfortably close this could cause the other vessel confusion on your intentions so tend to keep my course and go for the VHF approach, as you suggest, to ascertain intentions whilst firing up the engine (not engaged) for quick avoidance action if necessary. However, I am sailing in the med and most have a good handle on col regs. Happy sailing.
Nothing magical but the sea state has a lot to do with what you can and can't pick up.
I sail a dinghy on a lake, so no direct experience to work from, however I was an airplane pilot for many years and when it comes to aircraft, there are global, well enforced regulations requiring electronics designed to avoid collisions to be on board and turned on. Without such a framework in place for ocean going vessels, IF I could afford it, I would opt for both. My second choice, given that AIS is so dependent on laxly enforced participation that seems rather spotty at present, I'd go for radar. It does not depend on the other vessel being well equipped or even awake. Eat your fruits and veggies, Liz, and Jamie, exercise every day, sleep well, and keep learning new things - it may stave off MCI (Mild Cognitive Impairment) which is quite common as we age. Where did I put my keys? I'm not a health professional; don't even play one on TV. Cheers.
Many naval vessels, for obvious strategic reasons, do not broadcast on AIS. Also, while I have neither AIS or radar on my 28-foot inland freshwater sloop, I vividly recall an overnight approach to Honolulu from Hilo (after a voyage from Vancouver) when radar on our 54-foot ketch was very useful, especially when losing on towed barges. 👌⛵️🇨🇦
“closing”, not “losing”. 🤬
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First AIS .. than radar.. I have to ad ..new radars have weather mode too and that can be a nice thing to have.
Radar first
Hi Both, often mentioned are "big ticket items" when people are looking for a second hand boat. How about doing a episode on them and what to look for, costs etc for us newbies just starting to look.?
It's a great idea but it'll take a lot of research to get the facts right. Maybe a Patreon special? Let us know what kind of things you'd like covered.
@@followtheboat- I think things like: rigging, engine, sails, navigation systems, AIS, Radar, Solar, Autohelm, depth and wind instrumentation, radio, electrical wiring, tanking (water/fuel), heads/head tanks/head pipes, Through hulls and anchor/anchor chain. When Im looking at potential boats I see a lot of this stuff mentioned with age etc. what I would like to know is what is acceptable lifespan with normal wear and tear? should i consider refit of these items and approximate cost? (I know this is difficult but even ball park would do. And you know more about big ticket items. What about essential vs nice to haves. Would this make another one of your guides you produce? Is that the info you were needing. Thanks again, love watching you two (and I now know who thinks they're the boss and who is actually the boss! ;)
That is why its suggested to have boat surveyed, where they will inspect and go over all of that info with you. However, that is done when putting in an offer on a boat. So that does not help trying to narrow down boats when shopping around. So yea, that might be a good video to go over some of the standards and basics. Even with all of that, just basics would be quite a bit of research.
Another great video. How much clearance do you need between a small vessel like a sailboat or one of those large tankers/container ships? Just curious.
As a ex navy who's job it was to ID the types of radar and uses and make them not work I'm well versed on their limits, and benefits, But I trust my eyes the most even with low light vision onboard for night use.
Yep, nothing really beats your own eyes and some good bins! 🤙 Liz
It seems many yachties have both and use the radar for weather patterns like storms, squalls etc.
Outakes - so funny 😂
There can be absolutely ZERO question, that radar is hugely superior to AIS for one simply reason.. A vessel is invisible unless it is also equipped with AIS, whereas unless extremely unusual (eg military stealth technology) all vessels will appear on radar..
I had radar on my last boat and loved it . Being able to see through fog super , picking up channel markers , seeing the land in poor visibility. Squalls .
In intend to buy one fotlr my new boat . Any recommendations?
You two are such an adorable couple, I'd follow you anywhere.
😁
Right off I have to say, (oh, you said it also) AIS can be considerably cheaper. Especially if your just monitoring and not transmitting.
Squalls at night don't use AIS but they do show up on radar.
Congratulations on a comprehensive thoughtful and excellent presentation. If I was a boat owner and could only choose one it would be a modern low power consumption radar, largely because there are too many vessels without AIS. Having said that I would be much happier with both.😀
Reference the use of VHF in collision avoidance. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency - issued MGN 167 (M + F)
‘There have been a significant number of collisions where subsequent investigation has found that at some stage before impact, one or both parties were using VHF radio in an attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF radio in these circumstances is not always helpful and may even prove to be dangerous.’ (Just an extract).
Anyhoo - good stuff.😀👍⛵️
You really need AIS more than RADAR, the space loss increases with the square of the distance, and RADAR has to travel the distance twice, whereas AIS only has to travel the distance once. So the space loss for RADAR will be an enormously larger attenuation than AIS if the target is far away. Another big factor is the frequency, AIS at 162 MHz has much less attenuation than RADAR at 3 GHz, or even worse, 10 GHz. The longer the wave length, the less the space loss. RADAR compensates for this by transmitting huge amounts of power, which if you're in the wrong place, can be dangerous to your health.
I've got both but a lot of big ships and cruise ships really only watch AIS (by law they should be monitoring both but since AIS is so convenient, most watch keepers seem to focus mostly on that). Sailboats are made from Fiberglass mostly but even with steel and aluminium they still make poor radar targets. The 4G radars will often completely miss big fibreglass sport fishing boats in big swells even from relatively close range. If I was only going to buy one, it would definitely be AIS but DO NOT SHARE your antenna with your VHF radio even with name brand splitters... they work like garbage after a bit of corrosion and the AIS deserves its own antenna with as few connections as possible.
Radar and AIS but it was always the person on watch that stopped our boat from a collision. We use to see a number of Patrol boats in the South China Sea that dont show their AIS and even dont comeup on Radar.
Yes, seen a few of those too.
At least with those patrol boats you know they see you. 😁
Shipping Containers scared me, the rest not so much.
Us too, Rick 😮
I've seen six in about fifty years of sailing, and that is too many. I always wonder about the ones I didn't see.
Love the outtakes.
For me, definitely radar as twords the end you gave the same reasons would have.
Although AIS is on my list to buy as a supplemental input.
so B&G any problems are you using Zues 3 & 4G radar. do you recommend it?
It's been great for us so far, Kate 👍
Agree %100 especially the ending them effin mosses.
I am starting the video thinking Radar because not all boats have AIS
If I only had one Radar.
What are the typical costs of AIS and Radar for yachties?
I can’t afford either sorry. The price of being able to generate the electrons at sea to power such a system is beyond me. I do have new nav lights though.
Eyes are good, but brain is better.