This is a great video demonstrating the pick off rescue. One thing I do differently though is during the belay take over, I start by backing the system up with a grigri and a catastrophe knot, then set up the sling and prussik/kelmheist. In my practice, it takes a lot longer to set up the sling than slapping a grigri on the rope. If you have a belayer that is distracted, injured, or using a tube belay device, its nice to have that backup while you set up your sling. Disclaimer: I am an AMGA certified Single Pitch Instructor (bottom of the barrel when it comes to guiding)
100% agreed here. You need to "close" the system before thinking about the friction hitch. A knot below the GriGri will do this, no need to rely on the belayer listening or remaining calm, etc. Cover hitch to your harness would work as well. Also a good idea to get your GriGri setup before the hitch. Fundamental here would be getting yourself into the system and making sure it's closed/you can go hands free before worrying about transferring the weight. Also have my SPI, and participants in an assessment I was in received marginal if not failing scores for not closing the system before moving to the weighted transfer so at least some higher level AMGA instructors would have an issue with your sequence as well.
clove hitch clients brake strand to your belay loop with a locker, use any method to unweight the climbers strand, and put the clients grigri directly on your belay loop
Well made video, thanks! What I miss here is an explanation of why you would do this in the first place. Because typically you will not need this in a free-hanging scenario (since you would simply lower the climber). It would be much more likely on a slab, or a wall with ledges where the climber refuses to come down, or gets injured or stuck. Otherwise solid advice!
All scenarios are possible with overhang being the hardest to ascend which is why I showed it in this terrain. In slab/ledgey terrain, the ascending is a lot easier, probably don't even need a foot loop.
if your climber gets his foot stuck crack and the only way for him to get out is with an upward motion, if said climber cannot do so him self, you will need to ascend the belayers line and help lift him out with counter balance.
@@FallLineJPIt’s hard to pull dead weight, webbing between my thumb got caught in my atc. If the climber couldn’t upclimb, I would’ve lost a substantial portion of skin.
Did my first frozen climber pickoff yesterday... 11 y/o grandson about 25 ft up an easy sport climb on top rope..... remembered later portion of this particular video
Beautiful! And to this layman, technically bewildering. So awesome climbers have this kind of knowledge, skill and equipment. Thanks for a great video!
Awesome video. Loved how practical it is and how quickly you explained everything in a real scenario. Regarding the catastrophe knots, consider a slip knot instead of an overhand. Much easier to untie and can be untied under load, even when sucked into a belay device. I use them in sailboat racing for highly loaded spinnaker sheet lines that might get sucked into a block (pulley) and yet need to be released easily.
Some of the point of the “soft block” in this scenario is that it isn’t trivial to undo it. I do something similar in other applications where a failure of the knot wouldn’t be an issue from a safety standpoint, such as shortening a sling for use as a foot stirrup, but I’d be cautious doing that here. If it gets pinned against the gri gri, it did it’s job, and pulling slack through to unpin it is not super complex
Slipknots are nice, sure, but they are harder to inspect and verify and quite easy to get wrong. So I would agree that they are good here, but the fact that a simple overhand on a bight is so "obviously correct" and simple to make is a huge benefit in my eyes, especially in stressful rescue situations
Please explain the applicability of this technique. If you can ascend to the climber and then lower down....why not just lower him down from the belay? Even if the climber takes a hard fall and dies, you can still just bring his ass down.
There are many scenarios that a climber cannot be just lowered which is why this is one of the standard techniques taught in AMGA guide courses. Scenarios include: Client is standing on a ledge and refuses to lower, clients hand or foot is stuck in a crack, rope gets stuck and client can't lower, client has a seizure or get's knocked out and ends up in a position where they can't be lowered (ledges between them and the ground), etc.
It’s something that would hardly ever happen if you are with an experienced partner. About the only time I’ve ever heard of it happening is with kids/beginners, they’re lowering down, get scared and just stand on a ledge without putting their weight on the rope.
@@summitseekersexperience Rope getting stuck might become a big hassle. especially as you probably will have to unweight to rope to get it loose again. I would love to see how you would go about somehow moving both you and the client onto a second rope
@@timonix2 Interesting... I'll make a video on that... pretty complex as their will likely be a load transfer of some sort but I'll take a look. Thanks.
Great video! Would love a little more explanation on use cases. I read through the comments which detailed, a lightweight climber, injured climber, but I was curious what is the most common. Thank you
The main one i think about is rescuing a lead climber who has fallen high enough on the pitch that you cannot lower them. The one rescue i was involved in, the belayer had to escape the belay and go get help.
How about fix the rope to your (belayer) anchor. Ascend the rope until your climber is within distance of half the length of your rope. Build a new anchor at this point, fix the rope to it leaving a tiny amount of slack in the line to rappel down to the original anchor and clean. Ascend the line back to your new anchor. Put your climber on belay and then lower them to your new anchor. Once together do tandem rappel or something.
That is a scary thought. One that I hope I never have to live since I use an 80 meter rope. Yeah....the Long Running Bastard is heavy and a pain to flake and the rest but it will tackle any climb safely.
I have had to ascend a rope like this when my climber got the rope stuck in a crack while lowering. We both had to deadlift it out. Took about 25 minutes total.
Thanks for the question. What you said will definitely work to get the climber to the ground. The advantage of utilizing the prusik is that you can set it a little higher in order to not have so much pressure on the climbers hip. I didn't explain that in the video but I could have actually set the prusik quite high and then when the system tightens up during the lower, the pressure on the climbers hip would be minimal as opposed to connecting to the belay loop. It's a minor detail but that's the reason.
Thank you for taking the time out of your course to make this video! I’m curious about the pick off prussik, though. Here in Sweden we just clip the krab directly to the climber’s belay loop and shorten the sling with an overhand or by doubling it up, if neccessary. Or bettet yet, larks foot the sling to them and clip back to our own harness so they can’t unclip themselves again in a panic situation. The prussik seems like an extra step that would slow things down when you just want to get the climber safely back to the ground. Is there another use of it that I’m missing? 🙂
Thanks for the question. What you said will definitely work to get the climber to the ground. The advantage of utilizing the prusik is that you can set it a little higher in order to not have so much pressure on the climbers hip. I didn't explain that in the video but I could have actually set the prusik quite high and then when the system tightens up during the lower, the pressure on the climbers hip would be minimal as opposed to connecting to the belay loop. It's a minor detail but that's the reason.
Another Swede here… I noticed the same thing. But it seems like a neat trick in some cases. I can also see that on less steep terrain you could position yourself well above the climber and use your feet to push both off you clear off the slab.
@@nilslockean6813 Not really! The rope between the prussik and the climber is always taking the weight of the climber. The prussik is just for overcoming the friction in the anchor. Having said that, I have not tried it! 😇
That just made so no sense. You took over the rope from the belayer. Started to climb up. And that additional weight did not move the climber, but then when you are with the climber than your weight is enough to unstuck the climber. Yeah right. So what if the climber on the wall is a lightweight and the rescuer a heavier person. And in the middle of the the climb up the rope gets unstuck. Oh yeah, then the rescuer hits the ground and the climber flies into the last anchor. Nice
May have missed this, but close to 7 minutes in you removed the prusik and relied on your gri gri to hold you both. Is there a way to test it first before removing the prusik? May not have a big fall because of the stopper knots every few moves, but probably want to test just in case there are not enough knots.
The prusik was not holing me at all as it was only my foot loop so I was relying on the gri gri the whole time. It is a standard practice to rely solely on the gri gri (just like belaying on the ground) however the knots are placed because I do go hand free. Hope that explains it well.
Q: if there is a huge weight difference between the rescuer and stranded climber, will the rope move towards one side while the rescuer ascends the rope?
strange technique, not what i was expecting....misleading title as well. ascending with a gri gri and prussik is likely one the most inefficient and strenuous way to ascend a rope. unless your a machine its going to take quite some time and a ton of energy to get to the casualty. The casualty also becomes the counterweight and ultimately the anchor with the top anchor being more of a redirect than anything. what if there is a significant weight difference? A slightly easier and more efficient technique for going up with a gri gri with what you have in the video is to clip in the tail to the carabiner on the prussik, and have the sling attached to the prussik with another carabiner. this creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage and allows you to pull down on the rope instead up pulling up all the slack and is a lot less exhausting. a handled ascender and a rollclip would be ideal.
You are right. There are more efficient ways to ascend a rope. However, the end goal of the pick off rescue is not to ascend the rope in the most efficient way possible. This method is very efficient for how much gear is needed. With practice, it can be done quickly and smoothly. The trick is getting your arm movements synced up with your leg. If there is a huge weight difference between you and your climber, there might be some issues. There is a lot of friction at the anchor and usually some amount of rope drag. This can counteract the weight difference. I have used this method with roughly a 100lb difference between me and the climber (heavier and lighter) and had no problems. Making a 2:1 system can make things easier. However, I can't say anything about the safety of the system. By redirecting the brake strand, it leaves the braking plane (constantly above the device). It also extends the distance between the device and the catastrophe knots. If the cam mechanism fails to operate, you could have an exciting time. I do redirect the brake strand on a similar system (gri gri and ascender) when routesetting at climbing gyms, but I have extra backups. Redirecting the brake strand was not part of the AMGA courses I have taken. Someone more experienced than me would have to comment on this. I am SPI and CWI certified with the AMGA
I am a certified UIAA rock climbing instructor. For us, the redirect is pretty standard when moving up and down the rope, for example supervising a leader. Works fine. On slabs, you do not need to step in the sling at all. You can achieve this redirect with no extra material, if you girth hitch the sling to the prussik.
I don't understand in these lead rescue scenarios why you wouldn't just lower the climber, if they are conscious enough to manage on a simul-rappel anyway. I've read the other reasoning in other comments below, I still don't understand how this approach makes it easier to lower the climber who is unconscious or psychologically frozen, because it still seems to rely on them staying upright, using their feet, facing fear of moving etc. And if the reason to go up to them is because they're tangled in rope or similar, how do you know that you're not going to make situation more dangerous by heading up the rope? Not a rhetorical question, what is the mental check you need to make to go ahead with this technique
this video shows a couple of ways to keep the climber being rescued off their feet in the descent czcams.com/video/PxnNB68HIB8/video.htmlfeature=shared
For sure! This really is applicable to top rope belaying from the bottom though. I would be apprehensive to ascend on a lead climber on one piece who had fallen and was stuck... I'd probably do an escape the belay in that scenario and then try to rap in from the top.
There are many scenarios that a climber cannot be just lowered which is why this is one of the standard techniques taught in AMGA guide courses. Scenarios include: Client is standing on a ledge and refuses to lower, clients hand or foot is stuck in a crack, rope gets stuck and client can't lower, client has a seizure or get's knocked out and ends up in a position where they can't be lowered (ledges between them and the ground), etc.
@@summitseekersexperience fair points, it would be good to mention those situations in the video, because this looked like the method to pick off a climber who is hanging just fine.
The most common situation I can envision for this technique would be if a new climber, presumably a child, panics and won’t let go of the wall. But in that case, wouldn’t the weight difference make it not feasible?
I guess maybe it has uses if a climber gets a limb stuck in a crack or if they flip over and get knocked unconscious and lowering them would pose a greater risk of injury…l
you can move the prusik high which will result in the tether not pulling over the climbers body. If I attach to their belay loop, I'll still pull them down, but will apply a decent amount of pressure to their body or leg where the tether runs over.
I love these rescue scenario videos. I would like you to cover this scenario that I found myself in once. We were on a rappel off of devils tower. Got to the belay station and pulled our rope. The end got snagged in some rocks on the way down. We pulled on it for the better part of an hour before it freed. If it did not come free, what would our options be? How to get out? Let's assume the repel is on terrain way above your grade to climb back up. 1. Part way down multi-pitch repel 2. Have one end of the rope 3. Can't get rope unstuck. 4. What to do?
Cool, I'll try to cover that in another video. One thing to help you in that scenario is set up a 3:1 for the pull, you probably would have popped it out in a couple minutes.
The solution, if you only control one end of the rope, is to lead on what little rope you have, until you reach the other strand and transition to prussiking on both ropes. If the climbing is too hard to lead or lacks pro, then you are in real trouble.
You can ascend the rope using a friction hitch and Grigri using the method he described in the video. Obviously this is sketchy as you don't know how well the rope is stuck and it can come unstuck under the weight of you ascending. So you have your partner put you on belay from the other end and you place gear in the rock for protection as you ascend. That way, if the rope comes unstuck, it'll just be like taking a leader fall and you won't die
Interesting "basic concept" which every experienced climber who deals with beginners should have a grasp of, but LOTS wrong with the details. Firstly, how in the world was that climber "stuck???" Why didn't the belayer just lower them? And if they were "frozen" on less than vertical terrain, there's absolutely NO reason to have the original belayer abandon their belay - they'll be an excellent back-up in lieu of those "disaster knots," which can indeed become a disaster if a flailing rescuee distracts the rescuer. Simply do [most of] what you did, but attach your gri-gri ABOVE the first belayer's device. Other points to consider: 1) Lose the prussik in favor of a Penberthy; it's beefier, less prone to burn-through in the event of dynamic loading and very easy to tie/untie with one hand if need be. 2) Why thread your long sling THROUGH the prussik without a 'biner? This is STRONGLY warned against by sling manufacturers! Although I think they're being a little overly cautious, we climbing instructors better follow ALL product guidelines or we risk getting sued out of existence! Further, the CORRECT way to shorten/adjust such a sling allows for a lot more fine tuning and prevents the inadvertent loss of gear. 3) When ascending, NEVER hold onto the head of your friction knot, as was repeatedly done in this video; rather, holding its tail above the attachment 'biner assures that the friction knot remains locked until you unlock it. And running the brake side of your gri-gri rope back up and through the Penberty's 'biner allows one to pull DOWN on the rope rather than up and saves a LOT of shoulder work. Additionally, passing your foot sling through the gri-gri's waist attachment 'biner keeps your butt from hanging away from the foot sling and saves yet more energy. None of us likes being publicly corrected, SSE, and I'm sorry to need to do it this way, but those who watch this NEED TO KNOW what's not quite right about it. Please consider the points I'm raising, try them out, and see if remaking this would be beneficial to your standing in the professional climbing community. Safe Regards, Ralph
Thanks for the insight Ralph. I'll touch on a couple points but try to stay brief: Firstly, the climber in the video was simply hanging to facilitate an example. In real life, I would have simply lowered this person, but in this video, he was holding still waiting for me to "pick him off" just for example purposes. Second, the idea on a gri gri above a gri gri is definitely valid and if I had an experienced belayer, I would consider it to save time. The AMGA teaches the technique with the overhand knots in order to cover scenarios when the belayer is maybe not fully experienced to handle that situation. However, good judgement on the guide's part could definitely utilize the belayer. I think it's a case by case. Then on your points: 1. Probably a matter of personal preference on which friction hitch / ascending set up. I showed what we are taught in our guide courses. 2. You are correct when putting slings in an application with significant load but a pickoff involves very little load on the prusik sling so it's simpler to just loop through. However, nothing wrong with using another biner if one desires. In this application though, I don't see it realistic the slings breaking. 3. So I've been taught (although maybe I didn't listen right), holding a friction hitch for a foot loop is okay on an ascension because it is not critical in this case, the prusik helps you to grip the rope better. I'm not sure I've received negative feedback every on this technique from my peers in the AMGA. Also, I've ascended many many times in this manner with no issue. However, I'll ask some of the more experienced guide peers of mine next time I see them, maybe I'm incorrect and then we can make a new video!!! Thanks for the interest in the channel. - Jason
I must be missing something or mentally challenged . The guy at the bottom swaps with the guy that’s stuck in the first place then he goes back up and you rescue him? 😂 Couldn’t you just attach the Prusik and gri gri and head straight up? No disrespect, I’m just scratching my head
6:18 please tell me why on earth you are hands free on a grigri, and worse up on the wall with a panicked climber? You are one flick of a leaver from free fall for both you and the climber you are rescuing.
As Robert said, I have a catastrophe knot a couple feet below me. You have to go hands free in order to complete the pick off so just tie an overhand a foot or two below the grigri and you're good.
I'm horrified by the idea that you are handling a camera while belaying. I would not climb with a partner who doesn't respect belaying as a full time job.
This is a great video demonstrating the pick off rescue. One thing I do differently though is during the belay take over, I start by backing the system up with a grigri and a catastrophe knot, then set up the sling and prussik/kelmheist. In my practice, it takes a lot longer to set up the sling than slapping a grigri on the rope. If you have a belayer that is distracted, injured, or using a tube belay device, its nice to have that backup while you set up your sling.
Disclaimer: I am an AMGA certified Single Pitch Instructor (bottom of the barrel when it comes to guiding)
Definitely nothing wrong with this approach, probably not a bad idea to just hit a catastrophe knot right off the bat.
100% agreed here. You need to "close" the system before thinking about the friction hitch. A knot below the GriGri will do this, no need to rely on the belayer listening or remaining calm, etc. Cover hitch to your harness would work as well. Also a good idea to get your GriGri setup before the hitch. Fundamental here would be getting yourself into the system and making sure it's closed/you can go hands free before worrying about transferring the weight.
Also have my SPI, and participants in an assessment I was in received marginal if not failing scores for not closing the system before moving to the weighted transfer so at least some higher level AMGA instructors would have an issue with your sequence as well.
clove hitch clients brake strand to your belay loop with a locker, use any method to unweight the climbers strand, and put the clients grigri directly on your belay loop
nice
Well made video, thanks! What I miss here is an explanation of why you would do this in the first place. Because typically you will not need this in a free-hanging scenario (since you would simply lower the climber). It would be much more likely on a slab, or a wall with ledges where the climber refuses to come down, or gets injured or stuck. Otherwise solid advice!
All scenarios are possible with overhang being the hardest to ascend which is why I showed it in this terrain. In slab/ledgey terrain, the ascending is a lot easier, probably don't even need a foot loop.
if your climber gets his foot stuck crack and the only way for him to get out is with an upward motion, if said climber cannot do so him self, you will need to ascend the belayers line and help lift him out with counter balance.
@@vibearc882In that scenario you could also haul then upwards with some mechanical advantage without leaving the ground?
@@FallLineJPIt’s hard to pull dead weight, webbing between my thumb got caught in my atc. If the climber couldn’t upclimb, I would’ve lost a substantial portion of skin.
@@FallLineJPiiv😢d😢i😢fiisss. 😢i
Did my first frozen climber pickoff yesterday... 11 y/o grandson about 25 ft up an easy sport climb on top rope..... remembered later portion of this particular video
Very cool, glad you were able to help him! And get out there with him!
Beautiful! And to this layman, technically bewildering. So awesome climbers have this kind of knowledge, skill and equipment.
Thanks for a great video!
Thanks!!! Gotta have the skills to get out there safe.
Awesome video. Loved how practical it is and how quickly you explained everything in a real scenario. Regarding the catastrophe knots, consider a slip knot instead of an overhand. Much easier to untie and can be untied under load, even when sucked into a belay device. I use them in sailboat racing for highly loaded spinnaker sheet lines that might get sucked into a block (pulley) and yet need to be released easily.
hmmm... interesting, this is not the standard AMGA procedure so I may struggle to "advertise" that for obvious reasons but I am going to take a look.
Some of the point of the “soft block” in this scenario is that it isn’t trivial to undo it. I do something similar in other applications where a failure of the knot wouldn’t be an issue from a safety standpoint, such as shortening a sling for use as a foot stirrup, but I’d be cautious doing that here. If it gets pinned against the gri gri, it did it’s job, and pulling slack through to unpin it is not super complex
Slipknots are nice, sure, but they are harder to inspect and verify and quite easy to get wrong. So I would agree that they are good here, but the fact that a simple overhand on a bight is so "obviously correct" and simple to make is a huge benefit in my eyes, especially in stressful rescue situations
This is sick! Loved the video and extremely informative!
boiiiiiii
Allenbrook! Love that little cliff
great spot
Please explain the applicability of this technique.
If you can ascend to the climber and then lower down....why not just lower him down from the belay?
Even if the climber takes a hard fall and dies, you can still just bring his ass down.
There are many scenarios that a climber cannot be just lowered which is why this is one of the standard techniques taught in AMGA guide courses. Scenarios include: Client is standing on a ledge and refuses to lower, clients hand or foot is stuck in a crack, rope gets stuck and client can't lower, client has a seizure or get's knocked out and ends up in a position where they can't be lowered (ledges between them and the ground), etc.
@@summitseekersexperience I see. Thank you for explaining that so quickly.
It’s something that would hardly ever happen if you are with an experienced partner. About the only time I’ve ever heard of it happening is with kids/beginners, they’re lowering down, get scared and just stand on a ledge without putting their weight on the rope.
@@summitseekersexperience Rope getting stuck might become a big hassle. especially as you probably will have to unweight to rope to get it loose again. I would love to see how you would go about somehow moving both you and the client onto a second rope
@@timonix2 Interesting... I'll make a video on that... pretty complex as their will likely be a load transfer of some sort but I'll take a look. Thanks.
(in portuguese Brazil): É isso que eu conheço! Obrigado por compartilhar!
Hi Jason,
This was such a useful video, definitely saving it in my library!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video! Would love a little more explanation on use cases. I read through the comments which detailed, a lightweight climber, injured climber, but I was curious what is the most common. Thank you
Most common (anecdotal) is a scared climber who wants you to rappel with them.
@@josiah7913 kids these days ;-)
I found this to be very useful ! thank you
Excellent!
The main one i think about is rescuing a lead climber who has fallen high enough on the pitch that you cannot lower them. The one rescue i was involved in, the belayer had to escape the belay and go get help.
How about fix the rope to your (belayer) anchor. Ascend the rope until your climber is within distance of half the length of your rope. Build a new anchor at this point, fix the rope to it leaving a tiny amount of slack in the line to rappel down to the original anchor and clean. Ascend the line back to your new anchor. Put your climber on belay and then lower them to your new anchor. Once together do tandem rappel or something.
However if the climber is conscious they can always downclimb until they are at the half rope lengrh to lower
Cool, if you haven't already, check out our video on escape the belay: czcams.com/video/R1_0HaH043k/video.html
Ascend, whip and dip. If its safe lol
That is a scary thought. One that I hope I never have to live since I use an 80 meter rope. Yeah....the Long Running Bastard is heavy and a pain to flake and the rest but it will tackle any climb safely.
Very nice video, thanks for posting.
Thanks!
Great video
Thanks for the visit
Sick
I have had to ascend a rope like this when my climber got the rope stuck in a crack while lowering. We both had to deadlift it out. Took about 25 minutes total.
Alpine butterfly above, locker and sling to climbers belay loop then cut the rope in the crack? Just thinking out loud...
Well done!!!!
What’s the advantage of using the prusic on the stranded climber over attaching to their fig8 loop or belay loop with the sling
Thanks for the question. What you said will definitely work to get the climber to the ground. The advantage of utilizing the prusik is that you can set it a little higher in order to not have so much pressure on the climbers hip. I didn't explain that in the video but I could have actually set the prusik quite high and then when the system tightens up during the lower, the pressure on the climbers hip would be minimal as opposed to connecting to the belay loop. It's a minor detail but that's the reason.
Thank you for taking the time out of your course to make this video! I’m curious about the pick off prussik, though. Here in Sweden we just clip the krab directly to the climber’s belay loop and shorten the sling with an overhand or by doubling it up, if neccessary. Or bettet yet, larks foot the sling to them and clip back to our own harness so they can’t unclip themselves again in a panic situation. The prussik seems like an extra step that would slow things down when you just want to get the climber safely back to the ground. Is there another use of it that I’m missing? 🙂
Thanks for the question. What you said will definitely work to get the climber to the ground. The advantage of utilizing the prusik is that you can set it a little higher in order to not have so much pressure on the climbers hip. I didn't explain that in the video but I could have actually set the prusik quite high and then when the system tightens up during the lower, the pressure on the climbers hip would be minimal as opposed to connecting to the belay loop. It's a minor detail but that's the reason.
@@summitseekersexperience Thanks! 👍
Another Swede here… I noticed the same thing. But it seems like a neat trick in some cases. I can also see that on less steep terrain you could position yourself well above the climber and use your feet to push both off you clear off the slab.
@@johnliungman1333 aren’t you concerned about potential slack building up between the prussik and the client, though?
@@nilslockean6813 Not really! The rope between the prussik and the climber is always taking the weight of the climber. The prussik is just for overcoming the friction in the anchor. Having said that, I have not tried it! 😇
That just made so no sense.
You took over the rope from the belayer. Started to climb up. And that additional weight did not move the climber, but then when you are with the climber than your weight is enough to unstuck the climber.
Yeah right.
So what if the climber on the wall is a lightweight and the rescuer a heavier person. And in the middle of the the climb up the rope gets unstuck. Oh yeah, then the rescuer hits the ground and the climber flies into the last anchor. Nice
in this technique your weight is transferred from the belayers side of the rope to the climbers side of the rope, that's why it works.
May have missed this, but close to 7 minutes in you removed the prusik and relied on your gri gri to hold you both. Is there a way to test it first before removing the prusik? May not have a big fall because of the stopper knots every few moves, but probably want to test just in case there are not enough knots.
The prusik was not holing me at all as it was only my foot loop so I was relying on the gri gri the whole time. It is a standard practice to rely solely on the gri gri (just like belaying on the ground) however the knots are placed because I do go hand free. Hope that explains it well.
Q: if there is a huge weight difference between the rescuer and stranded climber, will the rope move towards one side while the rescuer ascends the rope?
strange technique, not what i was expecting....misleading title as well. ascending with a gri gri and prussik is likely one the most inefficient and strenuous way to ascend a rope. unless your a machine its going to take quite some time and a ton of energy to get to the casualty. The casualty also becomes the counterweight and ultimately the anchor with the top anchor being more of a redirect than anything. what if there is a significant weight difference?
A slightly easier and more efficient technique for going up with a gri gri with what you have in the video is to clip in the tail to the carabiner on the prussik, and have the sling attached to the prussik with another carabiner. this creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage and allows you to pull down on the rope instead up pulling up all the slack and is a lot less exhausting. a handled ascender and a rollclip would be ideal.
You are right. There are more efficient ways to ascend a rope. However, the end goal of the pick off rescue is not to ascend the rope in the most efficient way possible. This method is very efficient for how much gear is needed. With practice, it can be done quickly and smoothly. The trick is getting your arm movements synced up with your leg.
If there is a huge weight difference between you and your climber, there might be some issues. There is a lot of friction at the anchor and usually some amount of rope drag. This can counteract the weight difference. I have used this method with roughly a 100lb difference between me and the climber (heavier and lighter) and had no problems.
Making a 2:1 system can make things easier. However, I can't say anything about the safety of the system. By redirecting the brake strand, it leaves the braking plane (constantly above the device). It also extends the distance between the device and the catastrophe knots. If the cam mechanism fails to operate, you could have an exciting time. I do redirect the brake strand on a similar system (gri gri and ascender) when routesetting at climbing gyms, but I have extra backups. Redirecting the brake strand was not part of the AMGA courses I have taken. Someone more experienced than me would have to comment on this.
I am SPI and CWI certified with the AMGA
I am a certified UIAA rock climbing instructor. For us, the redirect is pretty standard when moving up and down the rope, for example supervising a leader. Works fine. On slabs, you do not need to step in the sling at all. You can achieve this redirect with no extra material, if you girth hitch the sling to the prussik.
I don't understand in these lead rescue scenarios why you wouldn't just lower the climber, if they are conscious enough to manage on a simul-rappel anyway. I've read the other reasoning in other comments below, I still don't understand how this approach makes it easier to lower the climber who is unconscious or psychologically frozen, because it still seems to rely on them staying upright, using their feet, facing fear of moving etc. And if the reason to go up to them is because they're tangled in rope or similar, how do you know that you're not going to make situation more dangerous by heading up the rope? Not a rhetorical question, what is the mental check you need to make to go ahead with this technique
this video shows a couple of ways to keep the climber being rescued off their feet in the descent czcams.com/video/PxnNB68HIB8/video.htmlfeature=shared
Great video, but it assumes they aren't in trouble higher up the pitch than 1/2 the rope length, you should mention limitation that at the start
For sure! This really is applicable to top rope belaying from the bottom though. I would be apprehensive to ascend on a lead climber on one piece who had fallen and was stuck... I'd probably do an escape the belay in that scenario and then try to rap in from the top.
I'm really confused as to how the climber was stuck in the first place?
There are many scenarios that a climber cannot be just lowered which is why this is one of the standard techniques taught in AMGA guide courses. Scenarios include: Client is standing on a ledge and refuses to lower, clients hand or foot is stuck in a crack, rope gets stuck and client can't lower, client has a seizure or get's knocked out and ends up in a position where they can't be lowered (ledges between them and the ground), etc.
@@summitseekersexperience fair points, it would be good to mention those situations in the video, because this looked like the method to pick off a climber who is hanging just fine.
@@TarikVann For sure... yes, in real life the climber would have been significantly more stressed than Dan was in this video ;-)
Well, you see, somehow Dan was belaying himself from the ground while lead climbing, and...I dunno, I'm still trying to figure that part out.
The most common situation I can envision for this technique would be if a new climber, presumably a child, panics and won’t let go of the wall. But in that case, wouldn’t the weight difference make it not feasible?
I guess maybe it has uses if a climber gets a limb stuck in a crack or if they flip over and get knocked unconscious and lowering them would pose a greater risk of injury…l
Would it be reasonable to use a small ascender or a micro traxion instead of the prussik?
I prefer utilizing a micro traction vs a prussik, so much faster.
how would the climber get stuck on getting lowered? foot/hand jammed in rock, rope stuck, panic?
Correct, either a foot/hand stuck in a crack OR they may just freak and refuse to come down.
Who is belying the stranded climber while the rescuer is ascending the rope?
counterbalanced by the ascender
Any reason you use your prusik to attach to the other climber and not just attach to there belay loop?
you can move the prusik high which will result in the tether not pulling over the climbers body. If I attach to their belay loop, I'll still pull them down, but will apply a decent amount of pressure to their body or leg where the tether runs over.
That makes sense. Thanks!
why not start with prussik above, clip a loop below the belayer device to your harness and then steal there belay device ?
This could potentially work, I would have to take a closer look to ensure you couldn't get stuck in the system at a certain point.
@@summitseekersexperience great representation of this skill set any how.
@@vibearc882 Thank you!!!
I love these rescue scenario videos. I would like you to cover this scenario that I found myself in once. We were on a rappel off of devils tower. Got to the belay station and pulled our rope. The end got snagged in some rocks on the way down. We pulled on it for the better part of an hour before it freed. If it did not come free, what would our options be? How to get out? Let's assume the repel is on terrain way above your grade to climb back up.
1. Part way down multi-pitch repel
2. Have one end of the rope
3. Can't get rope unstuck.
4. What to do?
Cool, I'll try to cover that in another video. One thing to help you in that scenario is set up a 3:1 for the pull, you probably would have popped it out in a couple minutes.
The solution, if you only control one end of the rope, is to lead on what little rope you have, until you reach the other strand and transition to prussiking on both ropes. If the climbing is too hard to lead or lacks pro, then you are in real trouble.
You can ascend the rope using a friction hitch and Grigri using the method he described in the video. Obviously this is sketchy as you don't know how well the rope is stuck and it can come unstuck under the weight of you ascending. So you have your partner put you on belay from the other end and you place gear in the rock for protection as you ascend. That way, if the rope comes unstuck, it'll just be like taking a leader fall and you won't die
@@TheJeffDing Good point Jeff. Scary as f*ck though! But if you have no options… 😁
@@TheJeffDing I'd be contacting a rescue before climbing a stuck rope....
Interesting "basic concept" which every experienced climber who deals with beginners should have a grasp of, but LOTS wrong with the details. Firstly, how in the world was that climber "stuck???" Why didn't the belayer just lower them? And if they were "frozen" on less than vertical terrain, there's absolutely NO reason to have the original belayer abandon their belay - they'll be an excellent back-up in lieu of those "disaster knots," which can indeed become a disaster if a flailing rescuee distracts the rescuer. Simply do [most of] what you did, but attach your gri-gri ABOVE the first belayer's device.
Other points to consider:
1) Lose the prussik in favor of a Penberthy; it's beefier, less prone to burn-through in the event of dynamic loading and very easy to tie/untie with one hand if need be.
2) Why thread your long sling THROUGH the prussik without a 'biner? This is STRONGLY warned against by sling manufacturers! Although I think they're being a little overly cautious, we climbing instructors better follow ALL product guidelines or we risk getting sued out of existence! Further, the CORRECT way to shorten/adjust such a sling allows for a lot more fine tuning and prevents the inadvertent loss of gear.
3) When ascending, NEVER hold onto the head of your friction knot, as was repeatedly done in this video; rather, holding its tail above the attachment 'biner assures that the friction knot remains locked until you unlock it. And running the brake side of your gri-gri rope back up and through the Penberty's 'biner allows one to pull DOWN on the rope rather than up and saves a LOT of shoulder work. Additionally, passing your foot sling through the gri-gri's waist attachment 'biner keeps your butt from hanging away from the foot sling and saves yet more energy.
None of us likes being publicly corrected, SSE, and I'm sorry to need to do it this way, but those who watch this NEED TO KNOW what's not quite right about it. Please consider the points I'm raising, try them out, and see if remaking this would be beneficial to your standing in the professional climbing community.
Safe Regards, Ralph
Thanks for the insight Ralph. I'll touch on a couple points but try to stay brief:
Firstly, the climber in the video was simply hanging to facilitate an example. In real life, I would have simply lowered this person, but in this video, he was holding still waiting for me to "pick him off" just for example purposes.
Second, the idea on a gri gri above a gri gri is definitely valid and if I had an experienced belayer, I would consider it to save time. The AMGA teaches the technique with the overhand knots in order to cover scenarios when the belayer is maybe not fully experienced to handle that situation. However, good judgement on the guide's part could definitely utilize the belayer. I think it's a case by case.
Then on your points:
1. Probably a matter of personal preference on which friction hitch / ascending set up. I showed what we are taught in our guide courses.
2. You are correct when putting slings in an application with significant load but a pickoff involves very little load on the prusik sling so it's simpler to just loop through. However, nothing wrong with using another biner if one desires. In this application though, I don't see it realistic the slings breaking.
3. So I've been taught (although maybe I didn't listen right), holding a friction hitch for a foot loop is okay on an ascension because it is not critical in this case, the prusik helps you to grip the rope better. I'm not sure I've received negative feedback every on this technique from my peers in the AMGA. Also, I've ascended many many times in this manner with no issue. However, I'll ask some of the more experienced guide peers of mine next time I see them, maybe I'm incorrect and then we can make a new video!!!
Thanks for the interest in the channel. - Jason
Is this at Allenbrook??
yep!
I must be missing something or mentally challenged . The guy at the bottom swaps with the guy that’s stuck in the first place then he goes back up and you rescue him? 😂
Couldn’t you just attach the Prusik and gri gri and head straight up?
No disrespect, I’m just scratching my head
🔥🙌
I don't want the guy in the pink shirt to be my belayer ever. The instructor says "tight brake", "keep it in brake mode", and he's all loose. 😞
That’s not a klemheist!
8:13 : That knot sucks. Don't die together that way. Learn something.
Or you can just let the climber down with your grigri without having to climb up 🤣🤣🤣
6:18 please tell me why on earth you are hands free on a grigri, and worse up on the wall with a panicked climber? You are one flick of a leaver from free fall for both you and the climber you are rescuing.
The catastrophe knot he tied every 4 feet mitigates this risk significantly.
As Robert said, I have a catastrophe knot a couple feet below me. You have to go hands free in order to complete the pick off so just tie an overhand a foot or two below the grigri and you're good.
I'm horrified by the idea that you are handling a camera while belaying. I would not climb with a partner who doesn't respect belaying as a full time job.