Video není dostupné.
Omlouváme se.
Keel broke off mid-Atlantic - Marsaudon ORC42 Catamaran Part 1
Vložit
- čas přidán 16. 08. 2024
- Since posting this, I've had a really productive meeting with GLY. There is a follow up video here • Lorient Visit to ORC O... . This is the story of a catamaran that I bought new in 2016 from a small French boatyard in Lorient, called Marsaudon Composites. Two years after launch one of the keels broke off during a trans-Atlantic crossing. The yard blamed it on me, but the expert appointed by the court decided otherwise. The keels had, he concluded, design and build faults that led to the breakage. In addition he found that the hulls had many areas where the resin infusion process had failed, the rudders were both badly built and there was a strengthener in each hull that was unsafe. drive.google.c...
The more I learn about new production boats the more I appreciate older boats
Yeah the old-heavy-POS is starting to look better and better.
As someone with 40 years in the biz- you have NO IDEA how bad it is out there.
I sailed across the Pacific on my friends' brand new catamaran. New Boat Problems is not some myth. It's very real, results in a lot of work, and is true for all new boats. I think the rigging had a lot of problems, 8-10mm clutches, 12mm ropes (because the spec'd 10mm Spectra wasn't available.) Huge headache. The rest of the boat was great and it is a very strong boat. After 7500 nM, very hard sailing, absolutely no movement or changes to the basic structure. One of the owners as we neared Canada said, "I think our boat is worth about $50,000 less after all this sailing." I would disagree. When it came out of it's tune up in a Canadian boat yard it was a much better boat than it was new. If indeed a boat like it would sell for 10% less than new? I'd jump on that deal, even if the things that broke had yet to be repaired. (But I would never want any boat that has a wooden core or a lot of teak.)
It's good to learn about Mausudon's shortcomings. They seem at first glance and first sail to be amazing boats, but not if they are going to fall apart. My own boat is a solid core 20 year old Hunter.
I have an older boat. Just buy a Bristol.
Getting a production boat customized with certain Companies can be a great experience then you have Lagoon and ORC who do not care about Quality just money. Building a CAT in 6 months is rushing it. they should build more at same time and take their time a bit more to do it right. When they say performance they need to stand by that. Miss use is BS they building a vessel to go into sea. It should handle what the sea tosses at it or dont make ocean boats.
Thank you for bringing this into the light. It's important that manufacturers understand that they cannot get away with shoddy construction without it being shared to the world via social media. Its shameful the way you were treated.
And yet this corporation did get away with it by means of a legal process that protected corporate equity (and transfer) while permitting externalization of costs, risks and consequences. Accountability is a human thing. Corporations are not human and, regardless, I’m sure Marsaudon execs saw themselves as the victims.
I really don’t believe manufacturers care about quality,it’s more about quantity.I would be extremely cautious when considering buying a multihull and would definitely hire a surveyor whose expertise is with these designs.
Sadly, it's apparent that manufacturers DO get away with shoddy builds.
@@mymobile5014 Well it does seem that there are a non negligeable quantity of these catamarans that have been made and you'd think that they all would have the same issues !!!??? Apparently not so .....
So because it's the only one that wasn't built right it's ok?@@user-oe1mb9hu9i
6:28 Dry fiberglass cloth in an ocean going hull. Holy moly.
They should have moved all equipment over on a new hull in stead off using so much time and money on lawyers. Shame on Marsaudon Composite
It would have been cheaper, that's for sure 😂
But the hull is repairable. The expert put a cost of 16k € on that aspect. Just a matter of finding someone competent.
They should still have moved all equipment over on a new hull and cut the old one up in pieces to analyze and improve their building process@@geezer355
Should you not try to get the boat back if they they do not pay you? No money and no boat (even with problems) seems to be the worst case of all 😢
@@geezer355 Yeah well the estimated repair costs for my boat started out at like 90K and that was a gross underestimation. I highly doubt 16k would cover it.
Hi John we’re very sorry to hear your story and to see the poor build quality. I’ll be happy to share this with others and to remove the video walk through I did of the ORC 42. Best wishes
Thank you!
Hi. Perhaps instead of removing the video you could link this one?
@trimaranspirit I agree I don’t think you should remove your video. But link to this one at the top of the description. Your video was a great walkthrough of the boat and anyone seriously considering one should also see this video. I was very disappointed to see this video. The ts42/50 ranked very high on my short list of future boats. I’m going to seriously need to reconsider it’s ranking after seeing this. The rebrand to ORC is now making sense. Very similar to the corsair rebrand of the 36 to the 37.
@@kirkhateswork Add perhaps add a pre-video screen in the editor explaining briefly in a couple of words what the deal is.
We have building companies that create a new shell company which then is appointed as sub contractors to build your house. The house is finished, the company is shut down. Your warranty is with the sub contractor which no longer exists. Meanwhile your money is in the Cayman Islands. We are treated like maggots by these companies.
Ha! Sounds like the leaky condo scandal in Vancouver BC back in the '80's.
This sounds possible but isn't. Although GLY was able to exclude the composite builds in their takeover. This should NOT be allowed.
There is no set-up of shell companies, Marsaudon found itself in receivership, following a decision of the commercial court, one of the candidates for the strongest projects was chosen, and it is GLY.
ORC 42 was on my shortlist of potential boats. After seeing this there's not a hope in hell will I buy one! Nothing worse than a boat were you can't have faith in the basic structure. Shocking treatment, really hope you get this sorted.
In 2000 I bought a Bavaria 47 full of defects and hidden flaws. 13 years of court where I was called a liar and more. Finally the sale was canceled and I was reimbursed for the purchase of the boat but not additional equipment added during the preparation of the boat. I understand your distress.
That's horrendous. I hope I don't have another 7 years to wait....
Was it due to an improper infusion as well or a long list of smaller defects?
@@BStrapper A long lists of important defects enough to cancel the sell after 13 years
Bavaria also have a history of failures and shoddy workmanship. Keels should never fall off a boat or fail IMO.
John,
I am trembling with fury on your behalf.
Moonshot is an Outremer 55 that is in Miami. I do not know if she sold there.
Outremer is owned by the same parent company.
How can sailors start a petition for the parent company to purchase it from Outremer and bequeath it to you for all of this pain?
Of course, there are more Marsaudon owners who will have problems. (Heck, now they all have problems because it'll be difficult to sell their boats. )
But you seem like a good guy who has been put through the wringer for 5 years!
Stay strong. I wish I could help.
Rorke
Two elements guaranteed to ruin a business model: shoddy workmanship and it’s always the customer’s fault
Sums up Leopard catamarans perfectly 👌
@@user-zu3ge9os6wThey don’t cost millions, and they even give you a year guarantee. Also, they can’t really kill you ( or drown you and the family in the middle of the ocean).
This is a must watch for anyone considering buying a boat made in France. It demonstrates that a manufacturer can avoid any responsibility for manufacturing faults leaving the customer through no fault of their own with no boat and no money. A travesty of justice!
RM did something similar left those who made down payments holding the bag.
No, it just means that it went under the equivalent of US Chapter 11 and that all liabilities are revised. Nothing abnormal except unfortunate timing. He should sue ICNN instead.
@@sevyalex Then they should compensate him with stock - they have his boat, presumably they had others.
The FRENCH Court system , especially to foreigners, is well known for being a brick wall.
Never buy a boat from France
Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I was looking at an ORC 50 - no longer.
I had an experience with French courts and the French Elite a few years ago - it was not pleasant. We were trying to protect minority shareholder rights in an egregious case of a board of directors acting in favour of one large (French) shareholder and against the interests of minority shareholders. Being foreigners, it was almost as if we did not count as people, particularly as we were litigating against a very connected French elite.
Yes, I was surprised that the chap appointed to manage the liquidation wouldn't even talk to me. I had expected him to be independent from Marsaudon and open to considering the creditors positions.
apparently not in France.@@geezer355
Thank you for making this video, John. Outremer is actually a line item on our retirement plan. If they produce yachts out of the same facility as Marsaudon, I think that line item will quickly change to another manufacturer.
Even a perception of a lack of safety culture at a boat builder is not worth the risk, nor the lost sleep.
I’m sorry you went through this. It’s not just about the money, you also lost precious retirement time. But you did the rest of us a favor and we thank you for that for that. All the best.
Thank you.
You poor bastard. Sounds like an absolute nightmare. You have my deepest sympathies.
It infuriates me that corporations get away with this type of behaviour.
Why bastard?
@@liadiabolo305 in Australia, it's meant as a term of endearment..... and _not_ meant to be taken literally. Not that's there's anything wrong with being born a male out of wedlock.
@@the-naked-sailor thank you
I have been involved with administrators on 3 occasions, they are not interested in employees, customers or creditors, their only interest is about taking as much cash as they can out of the so called failed businesses. This has no doubt cost you a fortune, don't you still have a title over the boat? If it's not in the assets of the new company and they do not acknowledge it, take it back!, start a go fund me to repair and put it right if you cannot afford to do it. Good luck for the future, don't look back, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get on with it! All the very best. Andy
Thanks Andy. I appreciate the advice.
@@geezer355that is the best advice !
I'll second this..
The first rule of insolvency is
Make sure your fees leave nothing for the creditors.. show me a liquidation that has? You can't.
Honestly you will never win...
You need to snatch back what's left of your boat and use crowd funding to repair it.
Watch parlay revival for the lagoon 450 bulkhead issues , he's got a huge following and was nearly ruined by the manufacturer until he truly showed it was a manufacturing problem.
Your only way out now is to fix it, which is a huge job, but not impossible.
With this story in the back, that could really work. There are CZcamsrs out there who funded a new used boat for themselves.
Wow, Bummer! Good job posting this for other humans to consume. Well done.
Thank you for bringing this to the public. I'm wondering if you could at least get your boat back since they never paid you. This is corruption on the highest level. I hope that you get just compensation for everything.
My story still has a little way to run because the receiver/administrator has not yet spoken to me (I first reached out to him on 17 July). His lawyers have sent verbal messages, but they're unwilling to put them in writing, so I think the next step will happen when he plays his hand. Legally he is obliged to pay the creditors if he has the funds.
Three years and counting. Hopefully you financed it with the lowest down payment so your losses are minimized. Please keep us updated. It seems like you should go after those layers for wrongful practice. It pisses me off when I hear stories like this. They knew that they built you a bad boat and then purposely screwed you every step of the way. It sounds like it might be a good idea to further slander them especially that Outremer is involved. Outremer might settle up with you since they want to keep their good name.
I am not setting out to slander anyone. I just want to put the facts out there. There seem to be a few folk who think it's just business, but the vast majority appear to see things as you and I do. If the 'just business' folk want to work with these characters I wish them good luck!
@@geezer355 The just business is destroying people like you. That's how many of these very wealthy people get to the top by stepping on others along the way. You can't be a nice guy at all in this situation. You have to fully go after them otherwise they will step on you like they already have and cause you at least three years of damage thus far. You don't even have a boat or your money that you worked so hard to get. You paid for the boat and have nothing to show for it. It's a game to them. They are hoping that you die because they don't care about anyone else but themselves. These people are the lowest form of scum around. If you want something to happen than you must push for it otherwise nothing will happen because your just a cog in the machine. You need to put pressure on them and one way that you can is to contact the better business administration, contract law, hire another very good layer under some type of contract to protect yourself just in case that person is a dirt bag and force the issue publicly with all involved like Outremer. Outremer might do something to help your case if you force there hand by saying that you will go public with this information. That makes me sick to hear about things like this! This is what I would do rather than bend over and let them ride me like a played fiddle unless you have enough money where it doesn't matter to you.
@@geezer355 You paid for a top of the line boat with your hard earned money and now you have nothing to show for it. I was considering purchasing one before you posted this video. Now I won't. Hopefully you get your money back with compensation.
This might sound strange. But as an American I tend to have a bias that European corporations are not as shifty as ours. Great info in demonstrating that all legal systems have holes that protect the large entity from the small consumer. Thank you for sharing and sorry for your loss.
Everyone needs to share this. They need to give your hull back or pay for it. Getting away with it legally doesn't make it right.
I honestly don't have any words to describe how appalling this situation is. The Phoenixing of boat builders is beyond disgraceful. So sorry to hear of your story. I believe failed infusions are commonplace.
It's really not a new technology anymore and there is no need to be taking risks building production cruising boats. I don't have personal evidence, but I can't imagine that the big production companies would get away with this level of resin infusion failure.
This is shocking and interesting and Jonny. Let's hope it goes viral!
Thanks Terry!
I have already spread it 2 catamaran groups
Thank you!
Hell makes the Lagoons look good . Hang in there mate .
I was thinking similar re bulkheads while watching this
Thanks! I wonder if the common thread is certification...
@@geezer355 Very good point .
Yikes, that should give anyone pause considering trusting their families lives to one of these vessels. So sorry for your struggles with this unethical company and thanks for sharing and warning others about this manufacturer!
Thanks for the information. I'm quite surprised that Outremer would have anything built in a yard with staff that have such a poor track record in terms of quality. That simply rules Outremer and all other Grand Large Yachting owned brands from any future purchases. Clearly quality and customer support is not important to them.
Maybe we should not forget that these problems occurred at Marsaudon BEFORE GLY bought Marsaudon. I don´t agree that you need to dismiss GunBoat now because their parent company bought a shipyard that has/had issues. However I agree that I would make very sure as an Outremer buyer to ensure that my boat was not built at the Marsaudon yard.
@@riddlerandsa8161 GLY bought a company that was producing poor quality boats, and then didn't try to honour what they had built and kept the same guys at the same yard onboard to build even more boats. It says a LOT about the commitment to quality that the GLY management have. If they don't care about quality, then no matter which brand they slap on something, they clearly aren't prioritising quality.
@@JohnGBecketthard to see a gunboat and say that gly doesn't care about quality, also I think they bought marsaudon because of their awesome WW2 submarine yard I don't think they will keep making orcs there.
@@rumbepack You're looking at the quality in the past while I'm talking about the expectation of quality in the future. The best predictor of future quality is current commitment to quality. GLY clearly don't have a current commitment to quality.
@@JohnGBeckett there's no indication of current quality in this video, this boat was built something like 4 years before gly bought marsaudon.
So sorry to hear of another buyer losing so much money and more when dealing with a French boat builder. Grand Large also bought RM Marine out of administration and I believe they then refused to honour in-build contracts without a large increase in price. Such a shame that the French marine industry does not work to protect buyers and thereby ruining the reputation of such a successful sailing nation with amazing sailors and designers and no doubt some good builders. This story is made me reconsider buying from one of the Grand Large brands as I was planning. Good luck in finding resolution and getting a just outcome.
As a boat builder, that is absolutely horrendous.
Keep in mind that a lot of commercial fishing vessels are completely glass fiber.
You can sail those vessels through hell and back, there wont be a scratch on them.
You need to hit something solid in the water to actually damage any structure.
Even then, the propeller and driveshaft is usually what gets damaged, hull don't care if it's built right.
If the vessel is classed for open water it should be damn near indestructible.
I'm not a sailor, but I'm guessing any vessel capable of transatlantic crossing have this class.
This shit right here, this is why I have trust issues.
Sorry to hear about your 5 year process that you “won” without getting a payout… Just terrible at every step from the boat failure to the legal injustice, all with lost personal time and money, on top of the boat loss….Our 2.5yr legal battle was bad enough and we were concerned about insolvency too but finally got paid out 90%….
Our wishes for you is that you do manage to get the refund and wish you all the best going forwards!
Thanks! I watched your story with sadness...
So terrible! I can not believe that they have your boat and have not been forced to refund you. What a loophole! Now you do not have a (poorly constructed) boat or your money. Keep fighting and spreading the word! Damaging their reputation may offer you some leverage. Hopefully, your video will also bring others that may have similar construction to join in your fight.
As a boat surveyor and composite boat builder it is shocking to see such poor workmanship. Although I have seen other similar issues from other French multihull manufacturers unfortunately. Thankyou for the very informative information.
wtf! thanks for sharing this, we were looking at an EOS 54 built by Marsden in 2016! think we need to look again !!! - hope u get your funds back - good luck
Thanks! To this day I still love the concept of lightweight fast boats, which makes the whole thing so frustrating.
Despicable. I admire your patience. Stay strong!
Crazy that the administration didn’t help you but it’s all about money we need more people like you to tell the truth about these companies that put lives at risk should be stopped producing bad quality at a premium price
Thank you for this great contribution. I have been sailing a TS42 for charter in Britany and I love it. I have considered seriously to purchase n ORC42 but I have always wondered, if the quality control is sufficient when looking at the boat yard. Outremer is as well on my list, but I had an outremer 45, built in 2015, inspected and they found so many issues, that I backed off. I have a lot of respect for someone to go through the ordeal of legal trials. Having run businesses and acquired insolvent companies as an asset deal (just buy the parts you like and ignore the rest) to restructure them is a common process to allow them to survive. But generally customers and suppliers are the ones who loose. Only contributions like yours allow the sailing community to judge the ethical behavior of a boat yard. Again thanks - extremely important and valid contribution and I wish you had more followers.
Thank you!
Hi John, that is a painful story to hear. Joe and Elaine Ganem went through a terrible situation with their Outremer and Grand Large Yachting. Their boat was a total loss.
Thanks Peter. I'm still hopeful that something will get sorted out with the administrator. In the interim I'm not aware of anything that GLY or the ICNN are doing to warn folk about the risks that were identified. Maybe getting the story out there might help someone avoid repeating my story 🤞.
this is a shocking story, you have been left with out your money or your boat!
What's the Outremer story? Can you share this?
Where can people see that?
I hope this will be picked up by the sailing press and media. It's a shocking tale of incompetent and unethical business behaviour.
The problem is, as all sailing professionals know, that it isn't shocking. It's commonplace. Most boat builders have these kind of stories attached with a few notable exceptions. There are far more badly and very badly built boats around than well built boats.
I don't understand why the consumer is exposed and not protected as they would be with a car or other certified vehicle. If the certification isn't working, it feels like publicity is the only alternative to try to protect sailors for design problems. I too would like the media to take an interest because not all sailors are of the generation that use CZcams. I wonder if the problem for the sailing media is that they fear getting 'black listed' for new boat reviews from these companies.
In my opinion it would be very wise for new boat owners to have an experienced surveyor examine the boat before launch for hull and other structural defects. The hull should, at the very least, be hammered to check for dry laminations or defective infusion areas. It is MUCH more common than most realise! Buyer beware.
@geezer355 I know a French-Australian lawyer. British, US and Aussie laws are very different. especially with consumer protections and contract law 😮
@@ozwrangler.c Thanks. But I'm really happy with my current lawyer. He's good at his job, communicates in a timely fashion and he handles my rants/stress/anger/frustration with kindness and understanding.
I have this unreasonable expectation that when I buy something it actually works and does not break. Also I expect the manufacturer to back their products. I always attempt to buy from proven manufactures with long track records and good consumer reviews.
Chapeau to you for making this. This is news that needs reporting. I especially would like to comment on the manner of your delivery, clam, and factual with supporting evidence. This not only makes all the more damming but hard to refute. I wish you all the best with your endeavours. I also hope you do not have to make a follow-up video on a YT take down on this, as this practice of blocking videos is getting very common.
Thank you! I'm really sad that it has come to this. There have been so many opportunities over the last 5 years and 8 months (or 5 months since GLY bought the yard) to find a better way forward. I really wish the ICNN would do their job, then none of this stress would be necessary.
Your concise analysis of your experience and the way you presented this video is master class. I can't imagine having to go through such and ordeal. And to still not be compensated for the
pure negligence in the build quality of the vessel is so unjust. It makes me wonder about the integrity about France's judicial body and of course the organization that certified the boat.
I wish all the best for you and hope you get some closure to this chapter of your life.
I’d head straight to Dazcat in Cornwall, they build fast, cruising multihulls to high standards which won’t have the same issues as they have pride in their work and are semi-custom builds
The irony in the refusal to not take on the liabilities of Maraudson, but were happy to take and retain the boat building facilities, staff, processes and management, whom caused the said liabilities.. And it's quite disappointing that the standards group didn't jump to your defence. Terrible experience. So much for my dream for an Outremer or Gunboat.. I'll look intop the other brands under the GLY Company.
Sounds like they did not purchase Maraudson, they just purchased the assets. Molds, buildings, equipment, etc.
Good for you to battle on with this , I hope you get satisfaction in the end , it is only through people like yourself that standards of design and construction are enhanced if not maintained for the safety of all of us who entrust our well being to our boats that we sail 👍.
Thank you!
This is just terrible, the troubles you went through and the fact they folded before you got paid. This is such a terrible way to treat people!!!!
You'd be happy to know this was shared on a swedish website with over 20000 members! Sad story hope it works out for you!
Thank you!
So incredibly sorry you had (have) to go through this John. It must have been a difficult choice to share your story on youtube but it contains important lessons for any boat owner especially a new boat. The video doesn't cover your way forward now in your sailing life but I really hope you're able to find your way into positive sailing experiences again. You are always welcome on our boat, any time.
Thank you so much!
Thank you for sharing. Sorry for your experience but sharing this will serve many who are in the market for a boat. I certainly have crossed this company off my list and I will be certain to see where my cat is constructed. Very informative.
I knew it was a specialized process to vacuum the hulls after watching a video, and that it required skilled personnel, but never dreamed anyone could design a bad boat that was certified as blue water capable. Thank you for sharing your ... what to call it not just a situation. It was theft, selling you a death trap for a lot of money. Then not paying you after going through the courts and winning. Thank God you are safe and no one has died sailing one of these cats.
Thank you!
Damn, that whole situation is scary. What a hell to go through.
I'm adding this to the list of why I'm building my own small sailboat.
I hope you can continue your dream. The yacht rental own sounds like true sailor, who knows how important the dream to enjoy sailing is.
Thank you.
Very concise description of his terrible ordeal. I would be wary of buying a boat of a French manufacturer, evidence the terrible workmanship of the Lagoon 450 catamarans as found by Colin McCrea of the CZcams channel “Parley Revival”. Colin gives a very detailed account of the serious problems he encountered.
Also Sail Life: Mads recently documented (on CZcams) helping an in-law remediate a very sub-par keel on another large expensive French "offshore" sailing catamaran. By Fountaine Pajot.
I am so glad I am too poor to afford a French catamaran I will keep my 1981 Doug Peterson 30 footer.
@@oldergeologist I too have a yacht built in the 80s, which I think was a chronological sweet spot for cruising yachts: hull shape modern enough to be very controllable, built strong enough to take out almost any contemporary yacht in a T bone, and nice manners.
wow......what a total disaster. its good you had the means to pursue your claims. many consumers would have been stuck by the yard. i would love to see you give this presentation at the worlds largest yacht shows and regattas. it would make a hell of a fine presentation and i bet people would be very interested to listen.
Sorry to hear this. Very disturbing.
@@TheOKellysDamn … I wanted to watch it again …
And given the way the GLY "relationship" worked out with you guys on the trans Atlantic, maybe you dodged a bullet? Business ethics wise, I mean.
Thank you!
The legal fees alone must be crippling.
The 'phoenixing' of 'bankrupt' companies is a scam slowly being dealt with in Australia.
The first step here is registering company directors so they can't just pop up again running another scam.
Lets see a video that features some faces of the animals responsible for the hell they put you in.
I find looking forward the key to not becoming bitter. You seem to be managing that well.
More power to you.
Thanks lot for your video, it has changed my intentions to buy a french built yacht! This is where the internet is meant for. Succes.
So sorry to hear your story John. Thank you for bringing this to light. I think you have saved alot of people a whole world of hassle and possibly some lives. I just hope justice is served and you get your money back. Keep fighting
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with the sailing community. My wife and I have similar plans to spend time after my retirement, we have seen many boats by now to find the right one for the time to come. As we saw in Dusseldorf Boat 24 soem weeks age, even the biggest series producer, e.g. from South Germany, have a lack of quality meanwhile, in contrast to the quality they delieverd during their early years.
A new boat was soon out of discussion, we rather trust on an older one for quality reasons.
I was seriously thinking about buying the same catamaran you bought. I'm glad I watched your video and saved myself a lot of trouble.
So far no one has lost their life... if t here are moralities due to production faults/design, the international organization approving for the design might be held criminally responsible, along with the dissolved company's executive staff.
What a learning lesson thru your experiences...
thanks for sharing your experience in a very constructive and informative way. can't even imagine what you had to go though.
Wow - that is shocking. I always thought TS/ORC was the top of the line 😳Thanks for sharing this horror story.
Sorry to hear that story.That’s a tough pull to swallow. Absolutely shocking they took no care with someone’s life savings and dreams. And a word of caution to some Outremer hulls also.
Well done on bringing this to the public's attention. I work in public relations. Based on my experience it may be worth employing a Publicist to work on your behalf in spreading this message to the media.
Suggest contacting eSysman, even though it's not a super yacht he may be interested to cover your situation in the context of other yacht builder issues.
Also, worth considering reaching out to Colin (Parlay Revival) to amplify this story in light of the positive impact he had on Lagoon and their 450 bulkhead issues.
Finally, the O'Kelly's have experience of Outremer yacht Moonshot and may have some insight to share, and also may be interested in amplifying your story.
I wish you all the best in resolving this fairly.
Here is another proposal: find out where they sell the most boats, make a “go fund me” and put the crap vessel in front of the next big boat show… together with free beer, this will help a lot of people to understand that this is unserious!
Haha... Le Grand Pavois at La Rochelle... Perhaps I need to provide cheese and wine instead of beer... :)
Seriously, a friend of mine had a similar thing with Lagoon many years ago… and only the announcement helped to quietly settle things in a very amicable and fruitful way … by proposal of the shipyard…!
Thank you for sharing your experience and for warning potential buyers. It shows the need for a thorough expertise when buying a secondhand boat from any yard. Did your insurance offer any help?
Yes, you're right. Of course, this boat was bought new. The insurance paid some initial legal fees but stopped helping after about a year. It's really frustrating that it has proved impossible to reach a reasoned settlement that works for everyone, rather than constant adversarial legal action.
This is horrifying! I’ll do my damndest to spread word wherever I can! My sincerest thoughts are with you and hope you gain compensation soonest. That original builder should never find employment of any kind ever again. My sincere respect to you sir.
This is heart breaking. So bummed to hear of this situation. Sounds like a horrible company and boat builder.
I gotta admit to not liking those keels, they look very delicate stuck down the way they are. I thought they were daggerboards looking at their shape,i reckon keels stuck on should be long length ways, not so deep and angled a lot at the front. As for the stiffener/rib that separated inside the hull in my opinion should be carried all the way down the side of the hull, down below floor level and as far down as possible. The weight gain would be minimal compared to the extra strength. Besides that and the workmanship she's a lovely looking cat
You are absolutely right. They are shaped like daggerboards in order to extract better upwind performance, as you would get with daggerboards. But that subjects them to much higher loads, since they can't be retracted when reaching fast, as you would with daggerboards. The problem here is that they designed a tight radius into the form of the composite where the keels meet the hull - right at the point of maximum load. I've heard a naval architect suggest the same solution to the stiffener/rib. It's possible that Marsaudon did this with later boats (mine was number 7 of a run of about 40), but I don't know. And you're right, it's so sad that it was not designed and built with a bit more care, because the concept is great and I loved the sailing that I was able to do in the 2 years before it fell apart.
Mate you must get the boat back, you may as well have the boat than nothing, it can be fixed. It doesn't look like you'll get anywhere here legally, i'd be getting my boat back. Good luck mate
Thanks! But I've been unable to use it for the last 5 years and 8 months, during which time I have won the legal case. Walking away now seems nuts to me. The receiver is paying posh Parisien lawyers to hide from me whether he has money. Why would he do this if he had none? He could just show me. I'm all in, and in any case there is the wider issue of the safety of the design.
Thank for sharing your story. I’m so sad for you that your dream boat ended up in a legal nightmare. I hope the best for you and that you can get back your money and buy a new boat.
thank you for exposing this, they were on my list too, lower down but now off the list totally as would be any outremer built at this yard
I can’t help feeling the cost for the company of just fixing the defects and moving on before this issue exploded would have been so much cheaper and better PR. I am amazed how stupid some small and large traders can be, your story would have killed their sales, a company that looked like it backed its product with after sales service would have had the opposite effect. It’s the old story , it’s not the issue, it’s how you put it right which counts.
Exactly...
Sorry to hear your story. I nearly purchased a second hand TS 42 in 2020 with dagger boards. I never liked the design of the fixed keels on the TS42 - no internal structure as per a monohull but as you found out the boat performs well with one keel so is relatively cheap to replace compared to monohull keel. At the end of the day grounding a yacht is not good and I would be very surprised if this did not contribute to the issue - appreciate design fault - (these fixed keels were used by two TS 42s in a charter fleet for a number of years before you purchased your boat). The rudder issue is very bad but luckily two rudders. I don't think it is right to add Grand Large to the issue - any business would buy a company without liabilities - Outremer and Gunboat have a fantastic reputation. I appreciate legally you were provern right but now move on.......Get your boat back - fix it for £20k and you have a boat worth £350 - £400k.
The expert's estimate for repairs is 77k €. I've not managed to find a quote below 100k £.
GLY settled other open litigation. Are you by any chance the owner of an Outremer cat?
Although I believe the design flaw that the expert considered could lead to the break up of the boat, exposing the occupants to the risk of drowning, is a matter for the ICNN and Marsaudon, I'm not aware of any action that they have taken. I don't think it's right for me to simply look away
The patches of missing resin are enough for me to never put her back in the water. Knowing how many structural flaws exist with the hull, and by proxy assuming there are many more unseen, opens you up to extreme liability.
Yes, if the boat is fixed it has to be done right. Someone who can test properly to not miss any dry areas and who has mastered resin infusion, so that the repairs are reliable.
Not an owner of an Outremer but sailed on them, Catana, Balance and other performance cats. I am truly sorry for your predicament but time to move on - look out of the box, get the boat to Grenada, Trinidad, Brazil - lots of composite repair people around. Rudder needs to be fixed and bulkhead. The scary thing here for boat owners is that Marsaudon were a leader in composite boats (many race ones) - how do other manufacturers stack up? Its strange Marsaudon went bust in a booming market - perhaps other liability connected with the capsizes and loss of life? Good luck and remember OLLI...................
I am very sorry to hear your story. I am also very surprised by the behaviour of Marsaudon shipyard. You had some luck to get a very good naval expert working on your boat for the trial, and to get this decision to your favour. (I am sailing regularly, owned several boats, living in Brittany, structural engineer for metal ships + compsite and fatigue knoweledge, and I have lost a house in a similar kind of story than yours) In other hand, I am not surprised by the behaviour of the Marsaudon administrator. You have all my support.
Thanks Alain.
Buh, Well yes uh sis is standard business practice in France!
Sorry to hear your story, I really considered the ts 40 as a great boat. This is not the first time I hear of design and quality issues at french yards that make sexy boats.
I've lived in the French Alps for 8 years and the people here are fantastic. This has not been typical of my wider experiences, though I can't deny that I've met my fair share of disagreeable people (as my friend calls them 😂) in Lorient. I agree that you don't have to look far on CZcams to find build quality issues with French cats. I wonder if weak regulation is the reason.
Wow! Dangerous junk!
Shocking commercial practices. Very irresponsible behavior, especially considering there are lives at stake here. I've often felt that there are serious flaws with the bankruptcy process; too often it facilitates guilty parties to get away without taking responsibility for the damage caused... You have my deepest sympathies.
OMG... I was very close to buying an OCR! I'm surprised that Outremer would work with such a company. Many thanks for the info. Great job! I decided to go with the super-light Stealth 13.2, built by Asia Catamarans (a Swiss/Australian company)
looking at Stealth - did you buy new. How is the boat?
@@Moonfish
@@Moonfish
I signed up a year ago... they will start building any moment. The boat weighs 3500 kg when fully fitted out. It boasts some absolutely amazing engineering features. It sails like a dream. Originally designed as a regatta/race boat, the Stealth 13.2C is its cruising version. The first cruising model was the 14GT (the WOW), which just completed its circumnavigation. In light winds and in terms of top speed, I don't think the ORC42 would stand a chance. It is a spartan boat like the ORC42, with no unnecessary weight
What series of terrible events for you, I feel your pain. I love the ORC design philosophy, but will consider twice now regarding the quality issues. Even more so the lack of 'making things right'. I know the lengths other performance brands will go for after sails support. Great video editing too! You told the story very well, and just the facts 👍
Thank you!
Thanks for sharing and thanks for helping me shorten my list of performance boats to avoid. It looks like avoiding French builders would be a smart idea.
I don't have any significant experience of other French builders, but I think that they are let down by the fear that the ICNN does not pay enough attention to their designs or lessons learned about failures in existing designs. If there is a reliable regulator we can have confidence in the boats.
I am so sorry for you John. I have 50 years of water under my feet and as a lawyer too and completely understand your predicament.
Thanks!
I have seen a large and new Outremer last year here in the Canary Islands where the mast has broken through the saloon roof. Outremer had previously issued a recall for this. This yacht was affected. According to the manufacturer, Outremer technicians reinforced the mast mount and then it broke through the saloon roof. On a boat that costs well over 1.5 million euros. I have seen this boat lying in various marinas throughout the year, as the mast breakage caused water to break through the hole while sailing on the Atlantic. The water found its way into the electronics installed underneath. All the equipment was completely destroyed and I think a lot of the electrics had to be replaced. Insane.
Multihull of the year for the mainstream Yachting press! Insane...
Thanks for the information, John. Personally I will never consider any of the Grand Large Yachting brands, not Outremer, Gunboat, Allures, Garcia... none of them. They must be shunned until they do what is right and proper, and make things right.
I want to live in a world, where we can put trust each other. Stories like this makes me very sad. Thanks for posting and sharing your experience. I wonder when inspecting a boat, is there a way to find dry fiberglass in the molding, some type of hull scanner.
I'm told ultrasound works well. Most surveyors should be able to detect anomalies by tapping the hull and listening for inconsistency in the sound, but to have proof in a non destructive way ultrasound may be the best option.
Im not in the market for a a cat but I appreciate you exposing this potentially dangerous product to the community. Thank You!
You are a hero. Thank you, truly!
Sorry to hear you lost your boat and your money but glad you survived and hope your story saves other people’s lives. Thank you for sharing your story
Thank you so much for your detailed video and the case related explanations. Wish you the best for your future plans!
Thank you for spending time making this video and sharing this with the sailing community. I hope you will receive the money paid for this boat! Wish you all the best.
I’m sorry to hear you’re going through this. Greedy people are sometimes horrible humans. I do hope you find a way to get what you deserve.
Fascinating story! Even with a warranty doesn’t mean a thing if the company goes bankrupt. The lighter & faster they make a boat the more problems by cutting costs and corners. I really feel your pain!
Something I learned from buying a carbon fiber tripod for my camera, is that carbon rods need to be replaced every 10 years or before, not a good material for rods at all. Thanks for sharing!
Wow thats some serious levels of corruption. Keep suing them and making it public.
Thank you for sharing your story with the larger boating community.. best of luck in your future sailing endeavors.
Wow! What shocking treatment you’ve been dealt on all accounts. When lives are at risk it’s a serious responsibility to address and correct those design faults.
Sorry to hear of your experience with this cat. We certainly won’t be buying of of these OR ANY GLY brands if they aren’t honourable enough to back up the brands that they’ve acquired. Poor business ethics GLY. 😢
I bought a brand new Lagoon 52 in 2019 .. At the delivery in Bordeaux we found a lot of faults .. Some where fixed and others we where told was going to be fixed in Lagoon service areas. They where very eager to get us off the dock, because they needed the space for other boats that came out of the factory.. I really had to force them to do some repairs. That was the start of my nightmare, and weeks in port. After living onboard for almost a year can tell you the build quality of Lagoons are shit. And our year sailing had been really held back.
For the price of thees boats you expect quality..
I think the regulator needs to step up...
shared your articel as often as I could.....unbeliveable story.... saw these boats here in the canaries and wasa bit jealous of their owners, wanted our old boat (lagoon380) to go to the scrapyard and fed up with my own poverty, but you made my day....I am really sorry for your fate at that point
Thank you!
So sorry for that experience you endured. Mabie you just saved another innocent consumer alot of pain. Thanks for sharing and hoping you get some time on the sea!
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am so very sorry and sure hope GLY does the right thing by honoring your case. Surely they don't want the bad publicity that will follow which will most certainly impact their future sales.
What a horrific story John. I'm also very surprised that in this day and age with all the social media, that GLY would take this position. I'm not in the market now but would definitely not purchase any of there brand yachts now. I wish all the luck in getting your money back. Might be worth taking an add out to publicly expose them, maybe they will wakeup. Cheers
Thanks! I really feel that the regulator should be doing more to ensure that the boats they verify are safe and built to an acceptable standard. Hopefully they will take some action now.
Thank for the information. Sorry to hear all your troubles.
This is utterly shocking from design to construction and especially in settlement. A salutary lesson in international business transactions of any type. Engaging with foreign judicial institutions is complex and expensive. Remember Agincourt! Best of luck!