LGBTQ Baha'i Experience Episode 1: Dan and Alexis Ware story
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- čas přidán 6. 05. 2022
- The Baha'i journey of Dan Ware and his daughter Alexis. Both share their stories of love and hurt and how the Baha'i Faith shaped their lives, even after leaving the religion.
We love you both so much for Being Bahai we gave up lot of things .we pray for you and your family in our coming feast ❤
I've benefited from hearing your stories. Thank you for sharing them.
Your experiences have helped me tremendously. Thank you for your ongoing work and courage.
Thank you for sharing this eye opening video. I have had the same questions myself.
There are numerous challenges in life including poverty, ignorance, lgbtg situation, etc - with power of God we hope to improve and overcome them. Difficulties are strengthening power, and the reward will be there by trusting God is just. God bless you. Your brought me tears. Love and hugs from Shanghai.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. Sending you so much love.
thank you Kimberly !!!! love to you too !!!
Dan Ware sounds like the ideal of a Baha'i to me. His daughter is right - as a Baha'i, I feel great shame for how non-hetro brothers & sisters have been treated. I for one, will no loner stand on the sidelines on this issue & many others.
This is remarkable. Thank you, for the courage to share this life story.
Dan and Alexis, you are two most beautiful people and the heartache you have experienced cuts through to an issue about the Baha’i faith, which I am going to find puzzling until the day I die. My wife and I have been buys since 1986. No one in my family is gay, but I find it difficult to present the stance on homosexuality that the bahai writings and authorities standby. The graceful attitude, with which you talk about your experiences is a huge credit to your human character. I wish you and your family, the greatest happiness.
This view about LGBTQ is common to many religions: Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Baha’i. We need time to understand this and discover ❤ in spite our personal and social challenges. Chastity is a challenge for most of us and a virtue that is undervalued in these dark ages. I am deeply sorry for all the pain and sadness you have gone through as individuals and as a family.
This is such a beautiful reflection on both sides, that the acceptance and love is still flowing. I am sure that one day we will understand something more about the reason for this. We are all created by God and there should be no separation, but in so many ways humanity as a whole seems to be progressing in the direction of amorality and needs a reminder that we have to have some laws to provide limits to human behaviour. Not because our natural instincts are wrong in themselves, but because of the adverse effect it can have in drawing other people, who don't naturally have those instincts, down a path that leads to more and more confusion. I agree, we don't understand yet, we can only keep growing and trying to 'live the life' with all its challenges. Bless you both for the love you radiate. Please forgive us who are still trying to understand.
@@hilarybahai9Allah'u-Abha. This is a very serious question all heterosexuals need to ask themselves: "when did you choose to be hetro?" The answer you give is the same as someone that is homosexual, bisexual, or asexual.
If we could understand the meaning of “ love” , we could solve many problems. Because Ego is constantly at work. Ego is expert in finding darts of doubtfulness !
Ego believes that we are material being forced to live a spiritual life!
Fuck chastity. This is not an even issue here. It is about inclusivity, kindness and tolerance.
No, Jews have been accepting and affirming of LGBTQI for a while now!
As a member of the Baha'i faith, words can not express how sorry I am for how you were treated. You are valid and worthy.
Edit to Add: I am so grateful to you for sharing this experience. Our faith is all about growth, learning, and understanding. I don't feel we've accurately interpreted the texts of Baha'u'llah surrounding LGBTQIA. The more open, frank, and kindly discussions we have, the more learning and progress we will achieve.
The treatment of Bahá’ís toward him could be his personal perception or the way you understood him. We respect gays’ rights. However, with being a Bahai comes a great responsibility.
Are you aware of the letters from Shoghi Effendi on homossexuality?
"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is WRONG. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature. To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this HANDICAP."
Shoghi Effendi, 26 March 1950
Mr. Husain, we also need to review the House Justice’s letter regarding homosexuality.
@@Mahtoor Yes, the UHJ is pretty worse: "Having become a Bahá'í, the homosexual can overcome his problem through knowledge of the teachings and reliance on Bahá'u'lláh." (14 March 1973 written by the Universal House of Justice)
Thank you for you thoughtful, kind interpretation. I wish the Baha'i administration were more like you. The bottom line is that currently the Baha'i Faith no longer respects diversity and inclusion. This was not what I signed up for, and this is why I resigned.
If they would exclude everybody, who does something against the Kitab i Aqudas, there would remain no single Bahai.
I'm Bahai since birth and would have loved to see people like you two in my community, when I still used to go there.
If they were in your community their administrative rights would be casted out simply because they are openly LGBT. It's not about "does something against the Kitab-i-Aqdas" but explicitly refer to homossexualitys as "immorality", "abnormal", "handicap to be overcomed with the help of doctors". As long as bahá'ís pretend these texts don't exist, they do and were wrote by the "infallible" Guardian and UHJ.
Dear @husseinmahrus7175, currently, no "doctors" can repair this "handicap". I take it your msg is saying that Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ wrote these fallacies. It raises a huge question, as it takes Baha'ullah's writings into new territory which tears the Baha'i community apart. Good work, that. ☹
It is unfortunate that many societies perpetuate the worldview that personal identity is something that is generated from the perspective of the family and community, rather than the individual person, themselves. Ultimately, this philosophy undermines the agency of the independent investigation of truth, which is a core principle of the Baha'i Faith. Every person living on the planet is unique in their gender/sex makeup. No one outside the individual is in a better position to evaluate and discover where they fall on the gender/sex spectrum, therefore, no one outside the individual is even qualified to say which gender(s) an individual should be attracted towards. Countless first nations cultures around the globe have long understood that sexual orientation is not a black or white issue, and it is a core principle that ensures the agency of the individual, which in turns, ensures the harmony of the village. It, therefore, is regrettable that the religion that seeks to unite all of humanity into a global village is blind to this key virtue. The polarization of gender/sex is a woefully counterproductive exercise.
I would of loved your comment ten times If I was allowed.
@@stephaniewilson5284 Thank you 😊
Can I copy and use this next time someone asks me online what my feelings are about the subject. Great comment!
I viewed this with interest, as I have a connection here. Baha'is have a challenge to obey the laws of Baha'u'llah; this was not supposed to be easy. Yet through tests our souls advance. Maybe it is some comfort to know that in the worlds beyond this one we do not have physical bodies but only the spiritual attributes we have cultivated in this life. I still believe that God sent Baha'u'llah to guide humanity towards the recognition of its oneness, and thus ultimately bring about peace. This is more important to me than anything else.
WHAT? NO PAIN NO GAIN?? The worship od hardship ,rejection and suffering. Yes it is true that many avatars in the past did suffer and even die for their beliefs but let's not glamorize the suffering and make it an ideal.. Even the selfless martyrdom of Jesus produced centuries of un necessary polarization and horrific suffering which had nothing to do with Jesus revelation
The typical Bahai narrative: if you suffer because of the Bahai laws you simply don’t work hard enough. I believe this kind of thinking can lead to serious health problems.
Except for the fact most Baha'is I've met are probably the least spiritually evolved people I've met. FEAR and RULE FOLLOWING are not spiritual growth. Baha'is tend to be manipulative people in my opinion because they want to desperately to appear perfect, thus focus on horizontal signaling to convey such an image rather than authentic human connect whenever gathered.
@@alfsmom8025 Sorry, this has not been my experience at all! I don't expect perfection from others because I know I myself am not perfect. However, as a group I see Baha'is as people who are sincerely interested in helping humanity advance to a higher level of peace and justice. To accomplish this involves sacrifice. To be able to sacrifice means we must work on our relationship with God. Baha'u'llah is here to help us with that.
They are often so hell bent on appearing perfect that it often overrides the spiritual nature of Baha'u'llah's message
The attitude of the American Bahai community WILL shift toward the LGBTQ community and will change as more and more people of African descent and Indigenous Americans enter the Faith.
Thank you for sharing.
Hi Dan, It's been decades since we actually spoke, but I just wanted to send some love to you. "Thy heart is My home." Your heart in particular is a spacious mansion that God has a lot of rooms to walk around in. In the final analysis, the rest is irrelevant. I'm sorry you've had to suffer in ways that most have not. Once again, I honor your courage and honesty and send love.
I’m glad I know/ have known some beautiful gay/lesbian Baha’is who have been treated with great love and respect and served to the end of their lives.
Not crying, just something in my eye
So sorry to hear this story where Baha’is judging according to their own prejudices. It is a great loss . We are too quick to apply the law to others as Christ said, to see the splinter in the eye of the other and not the log in our own eye.
Very interesting. 1. The Universal House Of Justice has the power to make any changes. 2. Maybe, in the next two hundred years a change might be made. 3. No one said it was going to be easy to be a Bahai.
Good luck on your journey.
Actually, they only have the power to change anything that is not in the holy texts, the scriptures of the Faith. Exactly how that plays out in this matter is not for any of us to say, it will be determined when the time is right.
No, it hasn't. The texts explicitly against homossexuality were wrote by Shoghi Effendi and the members of the UHJ cannot change or superseed the Guardian's words. This is clearly expressend in the Will and Testament of Abdul-Bahá. It's very impressive how bahá'ís not even know how the "rules" of their own religion works. This is the consequence of Ruhi method distancing people from the scriptures and "reflecting" only on ready phrases and memorization.
@@husseinmahrus7175 Interesting. Thank you for your input. As a Baha'i in the 70s, I worked with dying children and babies in a hospital. It crushed my spirit, but I couldn't find any kind of consolation or explanation why the innocent have to suffer so much. Instead, I was encouraged to engage in 5-year plans to "bring in the masses" "each one teach one", etc., so I left the Faith and enrolled in nursing school determined to help these poor little ones. That was my first awakening to the lies of the Baha'i Faith, which I once loved so very much.
During that time, acceptance of diversity was a huge deal. Now, apparently, not so much? In the 70s, we knew, loved, and accepted gays. Now they're being shunned, based on some questionable translation of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, leaving heartache and trauma as a result. This is not the Faith I knew. I wish I could endorse it once again, but this PREJUDICE is unconscionable to me. I save lives. I values lives. I could never accept a "Faith" that devalues my core beliefs. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so sorry you experienced heartache and discrimination. I send support and love.
I was an Baha’i and also engaged to be married to a woman. I was conflicted about being in love and the prohibition against homosexuality.
One day I sat down meditating, I pushed everything away except to sit with myself. I asked the question ‘is marrying Sherry my destiny?’ I got an immediate ‘no. So I broke it off, I left, and decided to trust that I would be shown the reasons why.
Was compensated tremendously by making this decision. On the one hand, I lost my chance to be married to her. On the other, I experienced tremendous spiritual growth in the resulting situations, epochs and relationships. I can’t explain it but I learned the value of trusting the process of following Baha’i law.
I respect and admire your truthfulness and knowing yourself.
Easily, the answer to my question could have been ‘yes, marry Sherry’.
This broke my heart wide open. Thank you so much to all who worked on this project, shared their stories and otherwise contributed by putting in the emotional labor to demonstrate to us what we should all know and believe already, by virtue of being Baha'is. Your generosity, patience and love will be rewarded in many ways I believe. Beautiful work.
I am a Bahai, I love gay people as much as I love anybody Else. I know that gay people are not to be excommunicated because they are gay. But acting Out the lifestyle, Or acting upon.
The impulse, It's considered a violation of covenant. This is heart wrenthink because how much because homosexuals are some of the nicest. Most intellegend kindest perceptive human beings i've ever known as a Bahai. I've thought about this issue a lot, And I have my understanding of it. And I think it can be resolved if we change our frame of reference. And that is that we should not conflate love with sex. And that Goes for homosexuals Or non homosexuals. Sex is not an expression of love. We confuse the pleasure.
And the excessive brought about by the activity with love. And I think that's a mistake. That particular perspective.
Produces justification for The homosexual activity. His holiness bahaula Never said men cannot love men.
Or women cannot love women. Because Abdulbaha Has made it clear what are the ingredients of love. And they are justice, generosity, Compassion, Forgiveness, Patience, Truthfulness, I'm sure there is a couple of things i'm missing. To miss any of these ingredients,, Can you truly say you love. So therefore love is not a physical activity. It is an expression of the soul. Not of the body. Just like there are laws against heterosexual activity outside of marriage. There are also laws against homosexual activity within and outside of marriage. There are restrictions on everybody from all walks of life. And true freedom only comes when we accept divine restrictions called laws or covenant. I love and adore my fellow homosexual gay lesbian brothers and sisters. And my heart goes out to you as a Bahai I have shed tears of sorrow for your plight, And unfortunate predicament. Because you had no choice and what has been dealt to you.
By the circumstances and the accident of birth., And you find yourself in no man's land. Between a rock and a hard place as they say. My heart truly goes out to you. Homosexuals have undoubtedly suffered throughout history at the hands.
Of the ungodly. Who always claim to be godly but they are the opposite. If you have run into bahai's, Who have been judgmental to you. I apologize on their behalf, Just because you are a bahai, It does not mean you know anything at all. The bahai writings say, If you think you know the truth think again. So if I know the law, And I do things in opposition to the law. Therefore it is evident that I am making my choice. I am choosing materialism.
Over God. If I
Defy any kind of law any kind of divine restriction that is placed on me.
Then I am making a choice. And choices have consequences. We are either rewarded for the choice.
Or reprimanded for the choice. We draw near to god. Or We experience spiritual regression. To sum it up in a nutshell. The idea of kingdom of god on earth. Is the enforcement of spiritual law. With a push and a nudge not with brute force. I am saying too much I need to be quiet i'm probably wrong But this is my tache or understanding of the law.
❤ This prayer and hommage helps me to understand this issue also. Tablet Revealed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá
Grieve thou not over the ascension of my beloved Breakwell, for he hath risen unto a rose garden of splendours within the Abha Paradise, sheltered by the mercy of his mighty Lord, and he is crying at the top of his voice: 'O that my people could know how graciously my Lord hath forgiven me, and made me to be of those who have attained His Presence!'
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Where now is thy fair face? Where is thy fluent tongue? Where thy clear brow? Where thy bright comeliness?
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Where is thy fire, blazing with God's love? Where is thy rapture at His holy breaths? Where are thy praises, lifted unto Him? Where is thy rising up to serve His Cause?
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Where are thy beauteous eyes? Thy smiling lips? The princely cheek? The graceful form?
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou hast quit this earthly world and risen upward to the Kingdom, thou hast reached unto the grace of the invisible realm, and offered thyself at the threshold of its Lord.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou hast left the lamp that was thy body here, the glass that was thy human form, thy earthy elements, thy way of life below.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou hast lit a flame within the lamp of the Company on high, thou hast set foot in the Abha Paradise, thou hast found a shelter in the shadow of the Blessed Tree, thou hast attained His meeting in the haven of Heaven.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou art now a bird of Heaven, thou hast quit thine earthly nest, and soared away to a garden of holiness in the kingdom of thy Lord. Thou hast risen to a station filled with light.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thy song is even as birdsong now, thou pourest forth verses as to the mercy of thy Lord; of Him Who forgiveth ever, thou wert a thankful servant, wherefore hast thou entered into exceeding bliss.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thy Lord hath verily singled thee out for His love, and hath led thee into His precincts of holiness, and made thee to enter the garden of those who are His close companions, and hath blessed thee with beholding His beauty.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou hast won eternal life, and the bounty that faileth never, and a life to please thee well, and plenteous grace.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! Thou art become a star in the supernal sky, and a lamp amid the angels of high Heaven; a living spirit in the most exalted Kingdom, throned in eternity.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! I ask of God to draw thee ever closer, hold thee ever faster; to rejoice thy heart with nearness to His presence, to fill thee with light and still more light, to grant thee still more beauty, and to bestow upon thee power and great glory.
O Breakwell, O my dear one! At all times do I call thee to mind. I shall never forget thee. I pray for thee by day, by night; I see thee plain before me, as if in open day.
O Breakwell, O my dear one![24]
But the Baha’i Faith DOES describe sex as an appropriate expression of love between a married man and woman. But not for anyone else. I’m not fixed or strict in the Baha’i Faith, but that’s what the writings say… About sex and the rules around it
What beautiful people!!
I was Baha'I and loved it so much. It will always be at my core.
I left the faith when I heard their beliefs on homosexuality.
I'm a hetero. I'm also a musician.
I say that because when I was a kid, I told my piano teacher that.... shock..... the math teacher was gay.
I didn't even know what gay was. But it had to be juicy the way everyone was whispering.
She said, "Honey. You're a musician. Anyone who signs your checks is going to be gay or Jewish. Get over it."
And it broke my heart, hearing those stupid laws. I couldn't be a part of anything where I couldn't bring my friends.
In my prayers, and this may sound crazy, but I have felt Baha'u'llah, that powerful, gentle soul. And He's told me this isn't what He wants.
This is a very difficult issue for me as I re-examine my faith . If I have a child who is gay and I may have, this is a very heartbreaking issue for me . And I know I have friends who have told me it's just the way it is for reasons that we do not understand. It is the law of Baha'u'llah. I love the Bahai faith and the idea of the faith, but this one aspect and it's a big one gives me great pause for becoming active in teaching the faith to my friends and family. How do I belong to a faith that would look at my child as not equal and not be able to participate in Bahai life. This breaks my heart.
dear Bahai friend, how is grappling with one's sexuality any different from other difficult tests in this world such as having cancer, mental illness, extreme poverty etc? If you ever felt like it, you may like to read Fire and Gold: Benefitting from life''s test. It really helped my understand things clearly from a Bahai perspective. Also, why can you not love and accept your child especially if they chose to not become a Bahai and become gay? I don't understand how being a Bahai hinders you from this.
@@HodaMcClymont Quite simple gay is not an affliction ..homophobia is. I pray your religion evolves. You deserve the prohibtions you give to others until then. Grapple with that. Peace
Well, I guess you would have to be in my shoes to truly be able to understand. To feel that my child, if they were to find themselves gay and to know if they did decide to become a Bahai that they would not be seen as equal, would not be able to vote or serve because of their sexuality. They would not have the same rights as heterosexual humans in the Baha'i community, this is exclusive, and it hurts my heart. If you think that there are no gay Baha'i, even in your community, chances are, there are gay Baha'i. The way a shrug of the shoulders and hands up in the air by other community members who are very wise Baha'i? It is a very serious difficulty issue. And I'm sure many would agree and do agree. Also, you do not lose your rights if you have cancer or mental illness or if you're poor, but if you're gay, you do.
Also, I would choose my child loving unconditionally every time.
Thank you for offering such a kind, inclusive reply. @@chinkids2762
This is a wonderful film...that I have just happened upon
I knew nothing about this
Wonderful Father & daughter♡ Courageous honesty
Single parents who have never been married are welcome in The Faith. Families with more than two parents are welcome in The Faith. Nobody expects them to get divorced to join, let alone keep their administrative rights.
Not issuing marriage licenses is more than enough “punishment” when every person on Earth is imperfect, and the writings clearly forbid “prejudice or disdain” specifically for ANY gay person.
This is a perfect example of a time to use one’s sin covering eye. The Faith isn’t going to get anywhere teaching that families come first yet depriving even non gay Baha’is of healthy relationships with their gay family members.
Even Mormons & Catholics are doing better on this in the big picture.
I am a Bahai and I reached out to our LSA to discuss these stories after I watched them last week. I was provided with lots of documentation that supports the LGBTQ community. Bahai's believe that the soul has no gender and welcomes everyone from every walk of their life. I wonder if the individuals in this story reached out to the Universal House of Justice. Happy to share the documentation with anyone who might be interested.
What a powerful video. Dan and Alexis are wonderful and strong people and I thank them deeply for sharing their stories. The Faith has to evolve or it shall die, as the drive for the full equality of every component of humanity will not stop to appease ancient sentiments of ignorance. With videos like this, the dialogue is now open to changing the disease of fundamentalism in the Faith. Thank you.
Thank you dear Joel , I'm happy we reconnected
Absolutely: As long as we leave out this one group of people... That is what I have been feeling so much. We cannot say the Baha'i Faith embraces diversity so long as it leaves out the LGBTQ+ community!! And the Baha'i Faith is missing sooo much by leaving them out. And there is no sugar coating that it is leaving them out. If they cannot vote or fully participate--Yes, they ARE being left out!
EXACTLY and succinctly put! Thank you! I would like to input my experience with the AIDS epidemic, and how many gays sought their way into the Episcopal Church to find a place to die. As a former member of that church, we cared for them, loved them, and gave their deaths an honorable a decent end of life care. Now, I'm not an Episcopalian as the church was rife with financial issues, but these poor souls were embraced and accepted, and as a result, money flowed into the church. These were a highly educated population who enabled the church to expand by their bequests.
Such a powerful interview. Dan and Alexis are remarkable individuals. Dan's deep compassion for the Baha'is who hold on to harmful beliefs about homosexuality and homosexuals as persons is a testament to the profound depths of his spiritual nature. Every Baha'i should watch this testimony. I am so impressed by Dan and Alexis's ability to share their stories with no trace of anger while standing steadfast and firm in their proud affirmation of who they are and what they know to be true. God bless these brilliant stars. The Baha'i community is weakened by pushing them out of the fold.
Dear Dan, I remember you fondly from our days spent together years ago in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. . .your lovely music, and kind spirit! You are a beautiful soul, and wonderful Baha'i, and I am so sorry you have experienced such distress because of the treatment you received from some Baha'i institutions, and individuals. I hope you can forgive them because we all our learning and growing in our understanding of the Baha'i teachings and their implementation. I am sure we all have stumbled along the way. I actually think that most people's belief about the Baha'i stance on homosexuality is due to a misunderstanding about what is really being asked of them in the Baha'i writings. Without using quotes here, the Baha'i teaching is about unity, love, justice, the oneness of human kind. All need to be included justly on this tree of humanity. . .the sinners, the homosexuals, the believers, the atheists, . .all! None should be excluded. And then 'Abdu'l-Baha goes on the say: "Beware, lest ye offend the heart of anyone. . " Our words must be "mild as milk." So Dan, you and all homosexuals, must be loved and embraced by Baha'is! Therefore, when I read over the quote from Baha'u'llah in the 'Aqdas below that relates to homosexuality, what I feel He really is saying is that people who are not in committed marriage between a man and a woman must remain celibate unless or until they engage in such a relationship. He is not faulting same sex attraction, but instead forbidding all sexual expression outside of a committed marriage between a man and a women. If one looks online, one can find all sorts of health and character development benefits from practicing celibacy. Although difficult. . .and many have fallen along the way, it has been practiced throughout the ages and continues to be practiced among different groups (e.g., Catholics) to good effect. I can see celibacy as a gift given to certain individuals to guide them in focusing their energy in other positive directions.
"Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concoursely of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it." Baha'u'llah
In this quote from Shoghi Effendi below, he seems to be saying there is no problem with same sex love and devotion, it is just the expression of this love through sexual acts that is the problem. "No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong." Shoghi Effendi
I wish you well Dan. May you experience peace, love, and understanding in the rest of your life's journey!
Yes but why should people be forced into celibacy in order to be a member of this religion? Im assuming that you have never had to experience this, but there is clear hypocrisy in promoting love unity and equality, and then having a completely different set of rules for one group of people.
It’s really important for me to hear this. I grew up in a Baha’i family and I felt so alone. I ended up leaving, and Im atheist now. Being told that your desires are immoral when you’re a kid is really disorientating, and it makes it hard to read your internal compass.
Please explain, what you are saying further. Thanks
So you want the religion to conform to your beliefs rather than vice versa? I think your sour attitude about the truth of our Faith and a desire it change to your beliefs is wishful thinking. You are in my prayers.
@@christopherjohnson7461 A belief such as that is pure discrimination and prejudice. Frankly it's disgusting and nothing to be proud of. No different than white supremacists that believed in the inferiority of other races. It's sour attitude to criticize discrimination and homophobia? You are a great example of religious people. Have the day you deserve.
@@johndoee3850 The Bahai faith is a discriminatory religion and isn't actually about acceptance and equality.
@@MrSailormoonlover Nothing could be more incorrect.
I’m Baha’i and still love him nothing changed for us just because he is gay . But that’s the Baha’i laws .
What would interest me is what these two people currently believe about the person and station of Bahá'u'lláh.
The Guardian states that a Bahai’s voting rights cannot be taken away on the grounds of that person being homosexual.
The words of the Guardian supersede whatever UHJ says.
Adultery, however, is grounds for losing rites.
In 1956 the Guardian stated regarding homosexuality “But, unless the actions of such individuals are flagrantly immoral, it cannot be a pretext for depriving them of their voting rights.”
Therefore the LSA that takes away voting rights for a believer simply being homosexual, is, in my opinion, breaking their covenant.
Below is the Guardian’s full quote - note that he said this in 1956. Context is important. I don’t know who he was writing to.
“Homosexuality is highly condemned and often a great trial and cause of suffering to a person, as a Bahá'í. Any individual so afflicted must, through prayer, and any other means, seek to overcome this handicap. But, unless the actions of such individuals are flagrantly immoral, it cannot be a pretext for depriving them of their voting rights. (6 October 1956)”
Thank you both for sharing your TRUTH & standing in it..Many years ago I wanted to become a member of the Bahai faith, but when I found out about the stance on sexual diversity I was so disappointed & retreated ..I did find a faith that embraced sexual diversity which was New Though ..buT always felt that I deep down wanted to belong to the Bahai Faith..Being a person who studies astrology we are on the threshold of a new age, the Aquarian age ,which I always felt the Bahai faith was the forerunner to this new age...I came to see that the Bahai faith was still captive of the age of Pisces along with it divisions'; But we will be leaving the age of Pisces in the years to come..& with it I see that the Bahai faith will change..for sexual diversity along with race ,gender etc. will have to give way to the new impetus of Equality for ALL..in this coming age of Aquarius...
Robert I too believe we are still in the shadow of Pisces, and yes the Baha'i Faith is the precursor to the Age of Aquarius, we can all do our part to usher in the New Age, this is my contribution , peace and love - Sean
"Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion."
It is abundantly clear where science lies with respect to being gay. Being gay is not an affliction, or anything that needs to be overcome not should any adult have to abstain from sex in a loving consenting relationship. Love is love.
Science does not see homosexuality as being an "affliction" or needing to be "overcome". Science simply points out the proclivity of males and females, without judgement. It is we, the uninformed, who become fearful and then throw stones when those proclivities are shared by science.
Nature and common sense say otherwise.
@@nimaakhtarkhavari8766Your comment needs context. Which part goes against common sense?
@thermos73 Maybe the part that man and woman complement each other? Not to mention the biological facts about sexuality.
PS. I find ridiculous the need to explain something so obvious.
@@nimaakhtarkhavari8766 But what if that is not everyone's experience,? Science shows that homosexuality is present in nature. It is a part of our genetics. To deny that is an ignorant stance.
Even if you don't have an education in science, I would appeal to the Baha'i claim of tolerance, inclusiveness, and kindness---which has apparently been lost in this unkind discussion. This is not the inclusive community I once knew. Shame on you.
when I look around and see the enormous spiritual confusion, I thank God that I was allowed to live a life according to the Bahai scriptures. He loved my creation, therefore I do anything to balance my earthly and instinctive desires according to His laws. No one is perfect. But I don’t like confessing about my shortcomings on CZcams.
I was born a Muslim Iranian and I really am interested in Bahai faith . I use to Dream as a child about the faith . I have to be honest I feel very strongly that Bahai community are extremely supportive, diverse and believe in equality of all races and gender, how ever this video clip it really shows how discrimination can make a family so disconnected and discriminated against a very active member. I have known LGBTQ members of Bahai faith that the two ladies even lived together back in Iran 1967 and they were both professional women and also among Iranian politicians in Shahs time were 2 people that belonged to Bahai faith . Like all other religions/ faith including Islam , the LGBT community they were born or they were part of the all the religions that have existed. I really admire your perspective and I as a human feel really proud that you have highlighted your struggle’s, achievements, accomplishments, strengths and there is a massive learning process for us all involved in discrimination against LGBT 🏳️🌈. I do have a strong feeling that Bahai faith will continue with their efforts and understanding of diversity especially now with the challenges that Iranian women, Bahai faith and other minorities, LGBT community groups and others have been through as a result of discrimination directed to all them all . Our revolutionary movement started for equality the rhetoric chant is Women life freedom and equality is big part of it , as you know there are a big community of Iranian Bahai’s that are still live with discrimination, death threats, rape and abuse by the Iranians government. I really hope Iranian people will make the LGBT path to achieve equality in Bahai faith as Iranians really have experienced inequality and now they are emerging really strong. I am hoping and have faith in Bahai community to achieve equality in all aspects including LGBT ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 I really admire you best of luck .
Like many Abraham religions, Baha’is have strong family values; however basic to our faith is the indépendant investigation of truth. We value chastity and virtuous conduct in all ❤️.
thank you for sharing your story and the story about two lesbian Iranian Baha'is , and more importantly know that I keep Iran in my prayers and yearn for Iran to regain it's esteemed station amongst the Nations , Iran has a noble past and a glorious future, I'm so sorry for the continued Darkness that has enveloped your land , Love to you , your family, and your countrymen Ya Baha'ul Abha
@@cath.lamontagne5357:The word "virtuous" means strength of character. It is a huge moral misstep to assume that it encompasses a genetic predisposition for homosexuality. To claim otherwise is virtue-signaling at its neurotic, phobic worst. I am sorrowful that the U.S. NSA has fallen into that trap, and here you are blindly and ignorantly repeating it.
All my personal reservations about homosexuality fell away during the AIDS epidemic, when I cared for and grew to love wonderful, kind souls who didn't deserve to die in such a horrible way. Perhaps you had to be there to appreciate this. That is why I can never rejoin this Faith, which used to be so inclusive, kind, and welcoming. That is not so now.
As a Baha'i for fifty years, this aspect of the Baha'i Faith that troubles me, but it is the law!! All people should be included, somehow!! Hopefully the future will show us how to deal with all of these difficult problems!!
This is a cultist behavior.
If you say so!!@@husseinmahrus7175
I am disturbed by the "kicking the can down the road" fallacy:you offer; "Hopefully the future will show us how to deal with all of these difficult problems!!" This meme has shown up again and again, but without science or validity. It is a "trust us" argument, which is used by scammers for forever. This is why I cannot rejoin the Baha'i Faith.
Then don't!! The Door is open wide, but you have to walk through by yourself!! For me it's all about the Love of God, only!! Through this Love, everything will be made clear!!@@Gail-bz5kh
The spiritual realities of purity, chastity, holiness, and self-sacrifice within the Writings of the Baha'i Faith are a mystery that we as yet barely have a glimmer of...gay or straight they are a struggle, a challenge, and a test. But tests when seen within the light of the Writings are a blessing.💖🙏🏼
It is good to see a religious community who does not prescribe to the postmodernist sexual notions and debaucheries and also does not ‚throw them off a high place and stone them‘.
Just losing one’s administrative rights seems rather benign.
It leaves everything within one’s own responsibilities.
Sex is one of the cornerstones of a healthy marriage and healthy marriages are the nuclear units of society.
As Prof. Unwin described in his amazingly detailed monography ‚Sex and Culture‘ in 1936 societies take three generations to fail after socially disconnecting sex from marriage.
And that is exactly what we are seeing right now. As always, children suffer most from the failure of marriage and society.
‚Just following ones lust’ makes one personally responsible for the general suffering following the societal breakdown.
There is a direct vector from one to the other.
Blaming someone else for losing your status and position because you do not subscribe to the norms and mores of the organization you are working for reminds me of Oliver Hardy‘s ‚Look what you made me do again!‘
Try coming out as conservative in any number of today‘s ventures and you will realize how benign the Baha’i-Faith actually is.
This whole video seems more like critical theory grievance pandering than anything else.
thank you for sahring.
This is sad. in one city that i have been, there are homosexual people who are fully engaged in the Bsha'i activities.
The question is can the people in the baha'i faith move forward. That's a very good question.
God tells Man what to do, Not the other way around.
Diversity is not diversity without diversity no matter how colorful.
Let us be clear that the Baha’i community wholeheartedly respects gays’ rights.
However, Baha’is are obligated to follow Baha’i laws and the guidance of House of Justice. These issues will be resolved in the future.
@@Melody.4567B Not even "gays rights" exist inside the bahá'í faith as they can have their administrative rights suppressed for "blatant homossexuality". This issue will never be resolved in the future as the Guardian died childless and the members of the UHJ cannot superseed what Shoghi Effendi wrote.
@@husseinmahrus7175
Without recognition of the house of justice, you are spiritually blind.
@@Melody.4567B Without recognition that the Guardian was not infallible and made mistakes, and the UHJ does the same, you are showing that is mentally brainwashed and is keeping up a cult-like behavior.
@@husseinmahrus7175
You are totally lost. You need to go back and deepen your understanding of the Baha’i Faith. The Guardian and the House of Justice are both infallible.
If you resign or are shunned, you need to send a resignation letter to your NSA. If you don't, you will still be counted as a Believer in their statistics, in order to falsely claim it as a vibrant, growing religion. (This is a tactic used by other religions as well.)
I received a very kind letter in return from my formal resignation letter to my NSA, encouraging me to continue to engage with the Baha'i community, and initially I was thrilled with that glimmer of hope. I loved these folks. But the defensive hostility offered by the former "friends" was a nightmare. I was accused of serving alcohol to LSA members when they visited my home, and it degenerated into passive'aggressive hostility from there. I was met with coldness by the people I'd loved following my resignation. Sadly, based on the Ware's traumatic experience, nothing seems to have changed. So much for "spiritual growth". Traumatizing people is not a spiritual value, yet why is the Baha'i Administration intent on doing exactly that?
As human beings we are always looking for ways to condone our actions no matter what the impact it has on the greater community or not. Being gay lesbian transgender or identifying as what ever you wish is every human beings choice to be what they want. Its like the child who wants the reward but doesn't want the pain and suffering they must endure to achieve their goals. As a muslim i belive these acts are simply acted out of sexual compulsion in many muslim countries young boys are and girls are being abused because of our human lusts over the greater good of the community. Just as perceptions have changed over the years i.e hundreds of years ago the life expectancy was much shorter hence the age of marriage was much younger does that mean they were all pedophiles? I urge anyone who reads this to please respect our beliefs which have been passed down over thousands of years and even though i dont belive in same sex relationships i would say
"FOR YOU IS YOUR RELIGION. FOR ME IS MINE"
I pray for all mankind... Ameen
Bahaism stands on the Quranic and Biblical foundation that we should not judge anyone
And my relatives and my community of the Khoja Shia Ithnasheris also hated me for confirming to Baha'ism who accept gays and intersex in their society and tolerate them and they see them as abomination and indecent
But as Sandra said that the Bahais are not completely perfect so they have flaws, and in the Baha'i religion in Tanzania they don't have intersex or gays, but still they try to perfect in faith. All those who had good relations with me and who gave me value, God bless them in life all those African Sunni Shafi Muslims, Arabs, Iranians, bahais and the Christians who helped me and assisted me even as an orphan child when my community was mistreating me and shunned me off and as an adult as a preacher when boycotted, may God bless them
And for the Christian Muslim views in Bahaism the community was angry at me and for my preaching against some of their cultural innovations and deviations based on lies and traditions and following blindly Ayatollahs which theologically it is wrong and they don't have any authority in scriptures. And interestingly like in childhood mostly it was religious people who accepted me and were good to me. These days, Indian Shias are happy, greeting each other in happiness in town as I went to beg Gulam Datoo, and treating me as rubbish, as they can easily hurt passive gays and intersex openly as come to their true nature and the rest, by forcefully showing you their penises even if you don't want to see as homophobic hooligans they can do even to other gay and intersex preachers such as Apostle Darlan Rukih Moses to abuse them and hurt them for an indirect reason
You cannot live for free and you have to go through financial boycot, harassments and investigations only because of being born different. That is really rubbish in reality while rich people rape virgin girls, they rape wives of poor people and widows, and no one to put them into problems, and people pimp girls to prostitution and then they are living their lives in enjoyment calling me in street as I am in scooter as Hussein calling me, such cruelty as they wanted to force me under duress to prostitution and now as a Preacher and it was horrific for me what my uncle and they sought to do to me
As Sandra told me and I was a poor orphan child rejected by my relatives and living at the home of a poor Sheikh, interestingly the other time I came in talks she used the statement that in Baha'ism too it's not that we Baha'is are perfect but you will find some Baha'is who cane be bad to like your community people the way they were bad and cruel to you or Baha'is who cannot be welcoming or kind or who can be rude but still it's not that we are perfect as we are humans but we are still trying our best to better ourselves and be good to all and be perfect humans. Yesterday at worship at the home of spiritual mother of that area, Sally, a Reverand in the Baha'i faith, I was with fellow women as an intersex Shemale and I saw those straight women there if they were Government spies and not really Baha'is or if they were forced to blown nose and throw nose dirt at me or they were forced by the Government as they come after me wherever I go and the Government spies go up the roof to blow nose at me wherever I am, still I did not focus on them the deep hurt of being like in the room where I am sleeping, not being loved or cared or left alone in peace or pitied as an intersex or passive gay as they call me but being as here shot with extreme nose dirts and spits being pinched with in my lips, mouth, throat and face, still there it even seemed horrific me having to swallow nose fluid of theirs and dirts being mixed with my saliva and penetrating or feeling up thick in my throat not my own cough or fluid so I cannot meet respected people or preachers or the religious people I was meeting them in the past or who knew me but still I focused on the word there the word of God, the Biblical and the Quranic words, the word of God there, and the faith of God and the hospitality of some other believers there and on God being pleased me meeting for prayer with a people whom the Indian Shias feel they are kafirs and that their food cannot be eaten and they are evil but now it's other people fighting me even if those Indian Shias are powerful funding football teams and political parties and they believe in revenge and they made others from dangerous people too to revenge from people they fund or footballers or dangerous people who are homophobic too
Being gay is not a great issue imo, but seeing the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith as perpetuating an error is.
Omg he was so elegant and his story so heart breaking. The stance on homosexuality in the Faith is so ignorant' and yes it's teaching of tolerance and Unity becomes a charade in it's own light and actions all do to a human beings presumption. Elimination of ALL forms of prejudice and yet they are choosing prejudice. Homosexuality is NOT a spiritual sickness. I LOVE his daughter what a beautiful soul and light just like her dad. The falliblity human beings is at issue here. I do believe that in the Bible and in the Baha'i Faith that pedophilia was the activity being forbidden. That one decision of judgement that could easily be overturned with introspection is breaking thousands of peoples hearts. It's truly a tragedy. Always and forever honor your heart.
It is not about prejudice,it is about human behavior,he left the correct way, the homosexuality was of one's nature, it was incorrect in current day applications.
Thank you for your post. I didn't know Dan Ware, except from a distance over 40 years ago: he was acknowledged as an exceptionally positive force in The Faith, a leader with a gentle, kind way about him. He was retained by the UHJ to work in their headquarters, and was working within the U.S. NSA until he was suddenly confronted with attacks on his personal life.
I wrote the NSA inquiring about this issue, and received a long message that essentially cemented their position of expelling him from all administrative duties (never mind that that was his career), while asking all Baha'is to be loving and inclusive but excluding homosexuals from all administrative affairs. Good luck with that hypocrisy: essentially, "love" the victim of revilement, but keep him powerlessness at the end of each day. Some of the most vile, homophobic attacks by Bahai's appear on CZcams as a result of the NSA's morally corrupt decision. What a heartbreak collapse of a Faith that Baha'u'llah never envisioned.
I am not a Baha'i, but I am very sympathetic to this religion. I'm from Germany and the German Baha'i have never been homophobic. However, I wrestle with the subject a lot, as I was brought up liberal and open and will continue to be so. I think it's good that you exist. It goes against the idea of "the unity of humanity" to exclude people with a different sexual orientation.
This is a beautiful video. I find it difficult to believe that God cares about sexual preferences. And do not think this Faith will unite the world. I used to, however, believe. It's a very restrictive Faith. The standard of conduct is so high, that who could live up to that code? I think it's an inspired religion, but not a revealed one.
The Baha'i s need to move forward and change two important perspectives on women and the
LGBTQ community. ❤
The LGBTQP Community needs to move on from that narcissistic ‚you-have-to-be-praising-every-dainty-debauchery-of-mine‘ and just let the average Joes lead their lives.
But as that would also mean protecting their children one can see the conflict of interests.
PLEASE don't hate on the Baha'i Faith just because of this one issue! The OVERALL Message is still the same and extremely important in the age we live in. I don't agree with ppl of an alternative lifestyle being necessarily ostracized for said lifestyle by followers of ANY Religion mostly because we are all sinners. Every single person has skeletons in their proverbial closets, and even if they've finally reached the point where they no longer say and do the things they once said and did, the fact remains that they SAID AND DID them! Besides the fact that the Writings Themselves admonish us not to breathe the faults of others so long as we ourselves are sinners! And yet . . . .
Support the small religions
Against the monopoly of the big religions
The majority of people will never accept this as an acceptable lifestyle even if they pretend, for a variety of reasons and justifications, that they do. We are created noble but can make selfish choices that hurt the next generation.
remember folks. choosing to be a Baha'i or any religion does not mean finding the religion that conforms to your beliefs. the intention is to submit our weakness to God and have faith that God has the growth of our soul in His best interest, and thus requires us making sacrifices and letting go of our own personal desires, making every effort to align ourselves with His Will and His Teachings for our own spiritual growth...it's clear these are all tests in life, it's very sad to hear though and it's a sign of the strength of Faith when a soul succumbs to the tests and leaves the Faith because they choose to attach to their own personal desires rather than make every effort to turn towards God and strive to align to the Teachings and Will of God
where is my post?
Deleted because you wrote something against the lgbtq guidelines 😂😂😂
i’ve was looking into the Baha’i Faith as a religion for myself until i realized i still wouldn’t be able to find community there as an lgbtq+ person. their teachings on lgbtq+ people are so completely opposite to their other values of love and human kindness. i love so much about the Faith, it’s values and principles, but i just cant BE Baha’i. i guess i can take the good in my spiritual journey and leave the bad, but that spiritual life is a lonely one.
God loves us all regardless of religion and sexual preferences. Im grateful that God is in real control and not humans and human laws.
I'm sorry for your struggles. I see you are beautiful souls with so much to give the world . Therefore I don't understand why you feel the need to focus on this in relation to the Bahai Faith in a world with so many ills, injustices and struggles - even for those who are LGBTQ there are bigger issues such as persecution and even execution in some countries that need rectification. What is your motivation in making these videos? Choose your path and allow others to live theirs, which is what you are asking from others.
They made this video because the Baha'i administrative order has made this their own struggle. Being shunned by the administrative order is deeply disempowering and hurtful, especially after so many years of devoted service to the Faith. In no way has either Dan or Alexis indicated withdrawing from the Faith prior to this crisis, or failing to engage in human rights struggle; but they express a deep hypocrisy within the Faith which marginalizes members and needs to be addressed. They presented this issue with compassion, respect, and sincere love for the Faith. It's sad that we can't all be responsive to all the ills of the world. I ask that you do your part, and respect others enough to let them find their own path of truth.
Prejudice is Prejudice. This is wrong to treat humans this way. It is no ones business what you do with your sexuality. So if hetrosexual people have sex before marriage then the assembly should remove the rights too?
FORGIVE ME LORD GOD I AM A SINNER 😢🙏🏽. The world is yours 🌎
Why do you feel this comment is useful?
So much misunderstanding on this whole issue, but here we are broadcasting it, based on subjective perceptions. It is obvious from the comments that it is a polarizing issue, which results in even more divisiveness than the video identifies. How is this beneficial for anyone? What do you hope to achieve through this?
It's not about separating people! It's visibility! That way, people come out and don't kill themselves!
@@writinghealth Those who declare their belief in Bahá’u’lláh must unreservedly accept everything He has revealed in His writings. Period! That includes fighting ones own spiritual battles by the use of prayer, reading, meditating, and service. If problems seem too difficult, we are to choose a group of friends and consult about matters. Beyond that, one may consult with the institutions of the Faith. If that doesnt help, we can seek the help of medical or psychological professionals. Nowhere in the Bahá’í teaching is it recommended to air our beefs on social media. That is the resort of cyber-crybabies. I sought the help of qualified therapists in dealing with my spiritual frustrations, I didnt go whining on CZcams about how unfair the universe has been to me.
The question is can they finally get on the right side of history 🙄 😊😂❤🎉
There was a Walla Walla Jesus... From early
We are not aiming to please the Baha'i community or to be able to fit in. But to Please God and the Cause of Baháʼu'lláh. The Title Baha'i is not a people. But a journey in the straight path. Opinion.
How can love be wrong?
The Bahai laws are made for the welfare of the whole of humanity, not for individuals and their own
A person is free to feel a part of the LGBTQ etc community within themselves. By the same token we are obliged to practice the law of morality.
Yes, we all have sexual drive. This is meant to be expressed within the framework of marriage between a man and a woman. This is from God, through His Manifestation.
Yes, we as Bahais are meant to love ALL people. We don't have to agree with the behaviour of individuals. God gives humanity the guidelines for life. We don't make the guidelines, we're fallible.
Thank you so much Dan and Alexis for sharing your story. I am sorry for the way the Bahai Faith treated you, Dan, they are on the wrong side of history and it's a real shame. I too was raised in the Bahai faith and I turned away because of their stance on homosexuality and their exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice...there's really no excuse for these hypocrisies.
Rachel, you have it all backwards, people are just people, they are not hypocrites, God made,Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve, GAYS have a strange mindset, to justify there anti life position.They are emotionally misdirected. God bless there souls!
Baha’i are not hypocrites; values such as chastity, modesty, moderation and control of our baser instincts are important when creating environments that are conducive to a strong family-life. Personal opinion here on the membership of the UHJ women are “spared” these duties. Indeed, who in their right mind would wish to serve on an international body coordinating the affairs of the whole world? It is not a party or a power trip. The participation of women is an exemption. Women’s abilities to do this service are not in doubt;however they are exempted from it. As a woman, I perceive this exemption as a bounty.
@@cath.lamontagne5357 I never said bahai was hypocrites, it teaches that we are all sinners.
@@johndoee3850 what do you mean ? Who is the “we” you are referring to?
@@cath.lamontagne5357 I text many times a day, please text me ,the entire comment you are referring to. Thanks
Let us be clear that the Baha’i community wholeheartedly respects gays’ rights.
However, Baha’is are obligated to follow Baha’i laws and the guidance of House of Justice. No efforts can ever change this reality. There is no doubt that all of these issues will be resolved in the future.
"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is WRONG. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature. To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this HANDICAP."
Shoghi Effendi, 26 March 1950
I'm sorry you had a bad experience mate. We are all learning to put Baha'u'llah's laws into practice and none of us are perfect including whoever made a hurtful comment to you. I'm also saddened that you were not told the basic laws of being a Baha'i such as the laws of chastity which is difficult for all of us. The point though is that when we accept to become a Baha'i we affirm our belief that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age and what He says is the healer of the ills in human society today. We then start to strive to accomplish this arduous task of living up to the Bahai ideals. For some, it is an easier journey than for others and the Faith recognises that no one becomes perfect overnight - it's a lifelong journey. However, if you accept to become a Bahai'i, you accept the laws and do not break them in a flagrant manner. It's like wanting to run for office in politics but flagrantly breaking the laws of the land - is this permissible in any country? You can see the dire state of the world right now, and only the laws of Baha'u'llah will bring about a new world. If you ever felt like returning, the doors are always open. There is no lesser status for anyone, including gays, in the Bahai Faith. It is the actions that you take as a gay person that are sanctionable, just as it is as a heterosexual person. Last and most important, Baha'is recognise this world is fleeting and you are here to refine your character in preparation for the next world. Therefore, we forgo our carnal desires in this world and strive to become spiritual beings.
You assume a lot baed on this video, and it may be that your reasoning is reductive. A committed relationship is more than "forgoing"... "carnal desires". There are no celibate priests or nuns here;, so why ask anyone to destroy his family, which is based on commitment and love, in order to retain voting and attendance rights in the Faith? That is a true Sophie's Choice---Dan was forced to choose between destroying a happy family life vs. a deeply held commitment to his faith. I think a brave, compassionate decision was made to sacrifice a personal commitment out of pure love, respect, and desire to protect family members. He was not wrong. As another commenter mentioned, there are laws in the Aq-das that are not being enforced today. Why, after several decades, was this suddenly important enough to devastate a family?
"There is no lesser status for anyone, including gays, in the Bahai Faith." It's false. Gays can have their administrative rights suppressed for "blatant homossexuality". Gay marriage is not accepted in the Bahá'í Faith, so they only have the option to practice chastity their whole life while straights can celebrate marriage and exercice their sexual life naturally inside the matrimony.
As I explained earlier, becoming a Bahai means you recognise and accept the laws of Baha'u'llah. Becoming a Bahai is a choice and people declare because they fall in love with the Faith not because they are forced into it by birth or by the govt. Bahais don't impose their values on any non Bahai and so, they love and respect all including gay people - I have many gay friends and I am a Bahai. The law of chastity is one of the laws of Baha'u'llah - and this law has never been changed by God throughout religious history (eg. refer to Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc). No one comes meddling in other Bahai's' personal lives, however if a Bahai flagrantly break the laws of chastity whether heterosexual or homosexual, they will be sanctioned. I leave you with this question: what's the point of religion if we think we know better than God about what's good for us?@@husseinmahrus7175
Carnal desires means relating physical/material. Perhaps you could have asked me what I meant? Here is a quote you may like to consider: 'Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that "He shall not be asked of His doings." Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip. - Bahá’u’lláh ---- "Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and the next. Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah@@Gail-bz5kh
@@HodaMcClymont You are twisting the issue to pretend that homosexuals are not an lower category in the Bahá'í faith. It's not about chastity, its about cast out administrative rights, do not accept a simple matrimony neither the expression of love between 2 person of same sex. Straights do not have to face this same issue as they are free to livre their love and sexuality after marriage. Shoghi Effendi explicitly said that homossexuality is a sort of immoratily that is wrog and must be overcomed with the help of doctors. Maybe it was plausible during his lifetime in the 50's, nowadays this is a complete absurd as science already proved the homossexual behavior is natural. Where is the harmony between science and religion? If you think this come from God (a god that cast out homossexuals) and must be accepted blindly you are justing reproducing a cult-like behavior and showing that you are plus one brainwashed.
The Bahá’í Faith is unfortunately a fundamentalist religion. There can be no departure from the laws without consequences. For gays, it isn’t a public hanging, as in Islam, but it’s a lifetime of sanctions. It’s a lifetime of humiliation unless you accept that you must be alone and without the rights of heterosexual Baha’is. Furthermore, since the Universal House of Justice prohibits women from serving, there is a stain on the ability to have just consultation. Only men are empowered to make decisions at the highest level of this religion. This is a huge limitation that helps to uphold the fundamentalist nature of the faith. The full power of the Baha’i Faith will always be minimalized by the discrimination of the LGBTQ community, and by the failure to allow women to consult with men at the highest
level of the administrative order.
Michael I couldn't agree more !!! the Faith will NOT be operating in full Light until LGBTQ people are treated with dignity and women serve on the Universal House of Justice
@@lgbtqbahaiexperience4892 isn't that what some other religions done in the past and today?
Its always amusing to hear how God should always listen to the wisdom of people and reveal His will accordingly. If thats how it should be, then why do we need God since we already know whats best? And clearly humanity is doing such an exemplary job of getting its act together, right? No, I dont think so either. The Bahai writings clearly state that God reveals whatever He wills, and that is the truth, even if it should tear the earth and heavens in two. If you dont believe/like that, you are free to go your own way.
@@pathfinder1273 Well, sir, I feel certain that you believe in the independent investigation of truth, which is a tenant of the Baha’i Faith? My investigation brought me to the conclusions I mentioned above. I hope you can respect the seriousness with which I investigated and which led me to reach my truth.
@@michaelmorgan6760 The independent investigation of truth has been the cornerstone of my life. But I dont confuse it with confirmation bias. No definition I have found for fundamentalism can be applied to the Baha'i Faith, because none of its members have the authority to interpret the writings. That hasnt stopped countless numbers of believers from trying, especially since the rise of academia and cyberspace. That there can be no departure from the laws without consequences is a reality of nature, both physical and spiritual (ever heard of the law of gravity? try messing with that one and see what happens). The Baha'i Faith must necessarily follow suit because it is a part of reality. Baha'u'llah made it abundantly clear that justice and world stability depend upon the twin pillars of reward and punishment. There is nothing in the Faith about "a lifetime of sanctions" for gays, unless the marriage laws are violated, and even then it applies only as long as the believer is not in conformity. I can well appreciate that there are individuals and institutions that get carried away with their understanding of it, but that is not what the Baha'i teachings are about. "Lifetime of humiliation" sounds quite hyperbolic to me, but probably gets lots of likes on comment boards. The Universal House of Justice does not prohibit women from serving, that condition was known before the institution even came into existence. Even if it were to have a membership of women, they would be unable to change anything that is in the Sacred Texts, and that includes the marriage laws. The full power of the Baha'i Faith is unconstrained through the power of the Covenant, whose watchword is unity. Disunity among the believers regarding the teachings is a much greater threat than the membership of an infallible institution.
The investigation of truth, its requirements and conditions, is clearly and fully described by Baha'u'llah. The overwhelming majority of Baha'is have chosen to ignore it and rely upon their senses. The result is only too predictable. How often do we hear people say, "I was so attracted to the Faith because it agreed with everything I believe"? In other words, finally God came to His senses and designed a religion that pleases me. And the first time they come across something that they dont like, they have a hissy fit and withdraw, eventually joining the flotsam of internet whiners. The first verse of the Book of Laws states that there are two conditions that are absolutely binding, one is not acceptable without the other. One is the recognition of Baha'u'llah, which is the very definition of becoming a Baha'i. The other is unconditional acceptance of everything He revealed. Thats it. There is nothing more. For those unwilling to abide by this, He left this option: "For such is the way of faith, if in thy heart thou seekest reunion with Bahá; Shouldst thou refuse to tread this path, why trouble us? Begone!"
Like you and many others, there are things in the teachings that are a real test for me, and I just dont get why He revealed what He did. But one of the things I learned through the independent investigation of truth is that belief, while ideally supported by science and rational thought, also contains an element of faith and trust. None of those things have ever, once fully investigated, warranted my impetuosity by ranting about it to anyone who will listen - not that they can do anything about it anyway. There is always the magic of prayer and meditation to help me realize that existence is guided by the Great Plan of God, and has nothing to do with what I want or think is best. Which He also referred to as the cries of suckling babes weaned from their mother's breasts.
Neal Chase was the most brilliant disciple of Dr. Leland Jensenof who is not buried far from you in Missoula, Montana!! (Sunset memorial gardens)
Ram Dass was not Baha’i, but he is one of the spiritual teachers that influenced me personally. I am not “gay” or “straight” nor do I care about any of that or find it important personally, but I do find it absurd that anyone could say anyone who was homosexual is not holy. How can a religion preach tolerance while not tolerating the personal decisions of consenting adults..? I have a feeling the translation was actually supposed to be about pedophilia, which does infringe upon the freewill of a person too young to make a good decision. Homosexuality is about consenting adults, not children. I really do not understand why people would make such a big deal about something so small. I have had all kinds of friends, despite what kind of people they chose to have sexual relationships with. This totally destroyed any respect I have for the Baha’i faith as a community, but I will still try and study the writings of the mystics themselves, as best I can.
Wasn't Shoghi Effendi himself gay? If he was, then his own interpretation of 'pederasty' as meaning all homosexuality must have been a lifelong struggle for him. He should have remained single and celibate instead of entering a sham marriage with Ruhiyyih Khanum and not giving her any kids. It was a great injustice to her.
What?????
I understand if someone may not be a perfect Baha'i. But if someone leaves the faith because it does not suit your wants and desires shows the magnitude of the faith was not understood. And I see more and more the idea of homosexuality is being pushed as a choice from younger age!
Sorry if not eloquent!
Bahai Faith does not fall flat,as you gravely mis stated.
Something to reflect on: Do we want the faith to bend to our will or do we bend our will to it?
A misintreptation could be the the single issue.
To whatever will that best serves humanity, discrimination and marginalisation based on gender and/or sexual orientation doesn't
Even more so, does it reflect the writings & promote the virtues?
Most previous dispensations direct followers to recognize The Faith by its fruits. E.g. Christianity & Buddhism
Translation: "Do you want to have the same rights that I take for granted, and will never have to experience the pain of being denied, or do you want to be miserable to obey God?"
It seems to me you are melding two issues. Rights vs Religious practice. There are rights that are universal no matter whether you have a religious belief or not. Those who have a particular faith for the most part they to live by the guidance of the one they believe brings a message from God. If you say your miserable obeying God then don't;live your life as you see fit.
Firuz Kazemzadeh could certainly epitomize "Asshole!"
Is that comment really necessary? Does it contribute to understanding in any way? You werent there, you dont know what was in his mind or what he meant. Even the man to whom the comment was made was more charitable and forbearing than you.
Ego finds faults everywhere! This time, God is wrong!
Such a challenge!
So never mind what God wants gay is ok let’s all be gay and get High. 😢 Oh Lord Rule are ment to be broken Let’s all be positive and do what we want.
Despite our love for LGBTQ people and any support we can give, this law of the Baha'i Faith will never change. It is not their fault as they are born this way and they have no control over it. But this is as much a fault of nature as it is when a person is born without a limb or with a deformed limb. I don't think we should treat this fault of nature as normal and celebrate it.
No one is celebrating it. People just want to live their lives in peace without judgment or oppression. Watch the video again. Jeez.
@@Gail-bz5kh I don't think Bahais judge them or stop them from living their lives as they want. They just can't be Bahais officially. They can attend feasts and deepennings and others as non-Bahais. That is only if they remain gay and practice it.
@@habibsarvestani174 I do not judge you, I only prevent you to be part of my group if you "remain" something you didn't choose. LOL
This is a gross mentality. Did you know that homosexuality is seen in nature among 1000 other species? It is natural and only patriarchal religions say otherwise
But if u live your life congruent to your own moral compass instead of what God has to say then we can make mistakes and miss out on the benefits of listening to God. These benefits include protection for myself and my family and my children from bad things, bad people and bad situations. Bad can range from dangerous to spiritually unfulfilling.
All are welcome in the Faith of Baha'u'llah. None will be excluded.
Apparently not.
Among the duties of the local house of justice are to provide for the education of a child whose parents are too destitute to afford schooling (K48). He singles out the "deputies," obviously of the local house of justice, as responsible for providing welfare to those incapable of earning a living (K147, p. 72). *Adulterers are to be punished by a fine, payable to the house of justice; such a fine would probably be levied and paid at the local level (K49, p. 37).* Indeed, a third of all fines is to be paid to the "Seat of Justice" (K52, p. 38). Since the logistics of sending one third of all local fines to the World Center of the Baha'i faith appear forebidding, it seems likely that this verse also pertains primarily to the local house of justice (an important point to which we shall return). In the absence of male offspring, Baha'u'llah says, two-thirds of the estate go to female heirs, while one third goes to the house of justice, "which God hath made to be the treasury of the people" (QA72, p. 128). For the same reason, of logistics, probably the local house of justice is intended. The trustees of the house of justice are to appoint in every city a judge,one of whose duties will be to decide and record divorces.
Once again, Naser, you manage to wax eloquent and expound on matters that are either irrelevant or inappropriate. What does any of that have to do with this video?
Mr. Naser,
Are you still alive? 😊 So good to see you and yet no spiritual progress. I am sure you have guided many individuals to the Baha’i Faith, according to Bahaullah. 😊
Wow. Is this all from the Kitab-i-Aqdas? Sounds like something that should've been either addressed or abandoned long ago. Is it true that it is badly written in Arabic? That there's confusion over the word that might mean homosexual vs. pederasty? Shoghi Effendi had faults, including failing to have a will, so perhaps it's a time to delve into this in the interest of The Faith.
@@Gail-bz5khYes and some from SAQ
@@MahtoorI am alive. But the Baha'i faith will die soon because it is a cult. 😊
Here are some of the cult-like tendencies in the Baha'i Faith:
1. Each Baha'i has a 'membership card' with a membership number
2. Strict censorship and approval process for new books
3. Punishments against individuals for perceived infractions include deprivation of voting rights and potential ostracism and shunning
4. Ban on Baha'i Studies courses to prevent hierarchy formation perceived as a threat to the administrative structure
5. Suppression of Baha'i academics who don't follow the party line and agenda
6. Misuse of the notion of "unity" to silence and penalise divergent views
7. Discouragement from reporting misconduct of individual members in the interests of "unity" and public image
8. Selective translation of literature to control information and maintain a marketable narrative despite internal contradictions
9. Revisionist edits in new editions of books (e.g. removal of failed prophecies and intolerant language)
10. Frequent fundraising for projects to enhance global image
Thank You so much for sharing your story. I felt true love in Baha’i faith in both of you, and I am so sorry for the way you feel,
I must say, though, that, as you know, over 20,000 lives sacrificed themselves to spread the message of Baha’u’llah at the inception of the faith, and that sacrifice, in all its forms, continue to engulf Baha’is in the cradle of the faith, Iran where a 16 year old kisses her noose after being forced to watch 9 other Baha’i women being hung before her eyes. She did not flinch and was hung, too.
So, what kind of love could any of us claim for the faith if, in so-called civil free advanced countries, especially, we throw away everything else that we claim to be near and dear to us, just to fulfill our whatever sexuality we come to assign ourselves to, even as a heterosexual.
If Baha’u’llah asked one of his followers to ever never get married, what would he / she would have done, even as acceptable heterosexual?
We saw what 20,000 did and what they are sacrificing as we speak. So, putting aside sexual engagements would have been the very least they would embrace and obey,
Also, each systems, religious or otherwise, have their own set of rules and regulations. Homosexuality is not a word that might have been misinterpreted or lost in translation. The guardian has addressed it is many ways, strongly and clearly. Also, as you know, as Baha’is we are defenders of anyone whose rights have been violated whether gays, lesbians, religious, non-religious, Baha’is, non-Baha’is, …., but, if homosexuals cannot refrain from actively being engaged in homosexual relationships, then, they are not following Baha’i principles. For that, their heads are not cut off, their rights to work and to enjoy life are not trampled,
They are simply being asked to not participate in Baha’i functions and they can continue serving mankind within their own rules and boundaries although anyone can claim his or her love for Baha’u’llah, in their hearts,
But, true believers will uphold all his commandments and give up their most sacred possession for it, which is life itself, let alone any other worldly matters that some of us sacrifice our faith for,
Thank You for allowing me to share mine,
❤️🙏🏿🌹
Individuals who are homosexual find it hard to harmonize conflicting demands: the urge to express sex impulse directed towards someone of the same sex & also to be in a religion that prohibits same-sex relationship. That means being trapped in a torture.
Let me state my opinion. We know that the essence of a divine religious system is spiritual. The material side only is only a reflection of that essence. Like, comparably speaking, the sun is far more essential and powerful than the earth; the sun being independent and the earth dependent.
Thus the essence of Baha'i is the power of Covenant round which you have to emulate and acquire some of its qualities, and turning to and obedience to it as the only condition you can profit yourself therefrom.
Some of the teachings of the Faith which are the extrinsic aspect relate to physical, social, human relation, racial or sexual. Being tolerant of the races and sexes is more physical and social, not spiritual, because spirituality does not have sexuality, gender or racial categorization and valuation.
Therefore, in my opinion, to lay more emphasis in social or racial tolerance is not equal nor superior to obedience to the Covenant of God through Baha'u'llah Whose words are infallible. And the greatest hindrance towards fulfilling your duty of obedience is your insistent self and pride, as if Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha's counsels are erroneous and not enough to convince you!
The early followers of the Faith have given up their lives, their desires, fame, work and families just to be with the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And here you are, you don't want to give up your passion for the same sexes, while calling yourself a Baha'i. We should all reflect in the quality of our faith in Baha'u'llah, not just partaking of its intellectual reasons and benefits, but also to offer ourselves up to Him that He may find us worthy of acceptance.
Well said
Peter, this is disrespectful fingerpointing and it isn't helpful. Try losing your job, family, and social/religious network all in one unexpected blow. This video is an offering to raise a deeply painful issue that needs to be thoughtfully discussed. Throwing opinions around is not equivalent to consultation.
Baha’i religion
A lot of people are on the wrong side of history.
So that's strange! Being bahai and reading Shoghi writings!
We have to ask our selves the most important questions first such as 1- Do we realy believe that God exists? 2- Does God send messangers to declare his will to humanity? 3- If we know the will of God should we follow it or complaint about it? 4-Do we really know what benifits us more than God?
No matter what religion do you follow but if you believe that your prophet declared the will of God then the right thing to do is to follow it because it is certain while our view of reality is not certain and maybe affected by our own desires and other factors.
Alot of Baha'is follow the bahai faith for the wrong reasons. We don't follow a religion because it is good, we believe in religion because it is true. When you follow a religion because it is good then if you find anything that doesn't fit your defination for what good is you will leave.
We are here for a reason not just to follow our desires.
I know every single Bahai gossips and Abdul-baha says gossiping is the worse crime. What do you say to that?
@@wathah323 Baha'i is not the people we are referring to, it is a journey to the right path.
You made a great point. Thank you! I quit the Faith because I was working with dying babies and critically ill young children, and never understood why, after a 12-hour shift, I had to go "door-to-door" on some 5-Year Plan to deliver the Good News: because hours ago a baby just died under my care, for goodness' sake! We did everything to try to save this little life. The neonatologist cried at our loss. Where was God's goodness in that?
Now, in my later years, I've come to understand I asked the wrong question. Life is hard, it is unkind, and to believe in a God that will take care of you is naive. We're on our own here, and we need to take comfort wherever we can. Believing in an afterlife might work for some, but for me, knowing that I am in a circle of life and death and will finally find peace makes sense to me.We only have one another to support us. To exclude anyone from our circle of support hurts us all. I still cry today thinking about that distraught doctor, and hope to hell he's found a way to continue in his profession with some degree of serenity.
LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN. That the Baha'i community, as distinct from certain Baha'i individuals, assigns lesser status to 'this one group of people' in the gay community, as asserted by Dan Ware, is demonstrably false. The Baha'i community, the Baha'i institutions and the Founders of the Baha'i religion assign lesser status to the sin of homosexuality, to sex before marriage, to infidelity in marriage, to murder, to drinking alcohol, to taking drugs etc. etc. but never to an entire group of people such as homosexuals, a cohort of murderers in prison, a group of thieves en route to prison, and so on ad infinitum. Why so? Because we are all faulty! Albeit homosexual Baha'is are sanctioned, so too are Baha'is in breach of the Covenant vis-a-vis various sins that bring discredit to the Faith were nothing to be done by our blessed institutions. Doing nothing, such as observing a so-called dignified silence instituted by influential elites in institutions and-or perpetrating a coverup, as reported for decades in the media on paedophilia in Catholic schools, would constitute the hypocrisy in religion that Dan Ware and certain commentators here wisely lament. Nevertheless, if Dan Ware really believes he can pick and choose which Baha'i laws revealed by Baha'u'llah not to obey (long codified laws ratified by the divinely protected Universal House of Justice and by other Baha'i institutions) because he's decided along with certain medicos today that homosexuality is ok normal and innate he should never have joined the Baha'i Faith, let alone have worked therein long term as a salaried officer. Alternatively, if in nescience vis-a-vis Baha'i teachings on homosexuality (on pledging in writing half a century ago to obey the central Figures and our institutions) he should have quietly resigned from the Faith and sought a new career on absorbing the truth that homosexual acts are a sin.
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" (Baha'u'llah's Book of Laws)
IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN
AND ALL THAT IS TO BE
1 "THE first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behooveth everyone who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. NEITHER IS ACCEPTABLE WITHOUT THE OTHER. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." Baha'u'llah
In addition to Baha'i law Baha'is obey the law of the land except in regard to certain travesties of morality such as in the extreme case of Nazi laws around racism. What's right and what's wrong vis-a-vis certain crucial matters surrounding for example abortion and homosexuality are also determined by God's most recent Messenger in a long line of Manifestations of God and not by man made institutions such as the Supreme Court, the US Congress and so on. Dan: "The Baha'i community hasn't had the benefit of the positive changes that could come because of the close association with people like me who are creative, who get things done." Dan, like every other inactive Baha'i or sanctioned believer who has lost voting rights or Covenant breaker who has gone astray is loved by Baha'u'llah and sorely missed by His true followers. I too am critical of many Baha'i academics in the Anglosphere concerning their nescience OR breach of the Covenant vis-a-vis House guidance on the foundational Baha'i principle of a universal auxlang (q.v. 'THE PROMISE OF WORLD PEACE', 1985) and Abdul Baha's concerning Esperanto. Where Dan and I differ is that because no individual's nescience is necessarily a sin, and atonement is ever on my mind, I never criticize the democratically elected and infallible institution, the Universal House of Justice per se.
Silly me! This sinner forgot to mention the universality of Baha'i law and that a great number of countries maintain laws that prohibit homosexuality.
If you are THAT gay, it's hopeless, I guess...
My dear! Any club, company you become a member or work for, there are rules and laws! If you don’t abide by them. They ask you to leave.
No one said to be a Baha’i is easy!
Look at the Baha’is is Iran! 180 years suffering in the hands of Muslim to practice their Faith. Their prophet was martyred, exiled, imprisoned, tortured, They can’t go to university, for 40 years. Their businesses are shut down, just trying to uphold the Baha’i Holy Days! They can’t burry their dead’s. Their cemetery are destroyed, and you are talking about being expelled from the Baha’i Faith, because of being gay or lesbian. For God sake!
They were so kind to you to keep you longer, so you could get your pension.
JFYI- my whole family was imprisoned in Iran, for believing in the Baha’i Faith. One brother was martyred at the age of 29, had a family.
Yes! It is not easy to be a Baha’i my dear.
It’s not a competition! Why are we comparing?? That’s like if someone is dealing with a mental health issue and you invalidate their story cuz someone else is going through something worse or is homeless. Just because someone has a (what seems to you) bigger issue, doesn’t dismiss others’ issues. It is not right that they faced discrimination for being themselves and harming no one! Just like the Bahai’s in Iran. Didn’t baha’u’llah say “love to ALL mankind?”
@@juliazedd1622 this is a most typical response by Baha'is they constantly pull this crap and guess what it contributes to even more self hate, more anxiety , fundamentalism does not bode well for the Baha'i Faith
Mormonism...