Understanding Smart Electrical Panels | Ask This Old House
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- In this video, home technology expert Ross Trethewey and master electrician Heath Eastman teach host Kevin O’Connor about this new wave of electrical technology.
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Heath Eastman and home technology expert Ross Trethewey teach host Kevin O’Connor about smart electrical panels. The two pros show Kevin how this new wave of technology is more about optimization than maximization, giving users complete control over their electrical system.
Smart Electrical Panels are the New School
Everyone has an electrical panel in their house, and the design hasn’t changed much in decades. However, the newest technology to come along is smart technology-enabled electrical panels. While these systems can stand alone or piggyback off of a standard panel, their features make them an attractive option for energy-savvy homeowners.
Smart Panels Focus on Load Management
Load management is the name of the game for smart electrical panels. The technology to monitor how much energy the home is using isn’t new, but the ability to manage how it’s using that energy is. These panels utilize relays to control circuits, and they report back to a smartphone app. Not only can the user see how much each circuit is drawing, but they can also turn each circuit on or off.
They Optimize Energy Storage Systems
In the case of a generator or solar-fueled battery system, smart electrical panels allow users to make informed decisions. In the past, these energy storage systems were often controlled by a separate panel of circuits, and the users couldn’t switch circuits at will. And, for those that weren’t, the backup system would power the entire house, which could deplete batteries too quickly or draw too much on the generator to be efficient.
Rather than energizing an entire house with a backup generator, the user can choose which circuits turn on and off when the generator kicks on. This lessens the load and creates safer transfers.
There’s a Panel for Every Scenario
There are panels for existing electrical systems and those designed for new installations. The retrofit panels install after the existing electrical panels. Installers can expand the system with as many of these panels as necessary. For new installations, the smart panel takes the place of a standard panel, with main breakers and relays integrated into one clean unit.
The integrated units are also a good idea for anyone who plans to upgrade to a large solar system or generator in the future.
Where to find it?
Lumin panel provided www.luminsmart...
SPAN panel provided www.span.io
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Understanding Smart Electrical Panels | Ask This Old House
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Automated controls are the future/ present state of our working world and definitely have great advantages in the right situations. However, after doing electrical maintenance for an airport and a school district, it is clear to me and my coworkers that troubleshooting/ servicing electronically controlled services is a far bigger headache. I'm not an old guy", but I know the old wisdom of having fewer "moving parts" still holds true. We're one lighting strike or solar flare away from the stone ages.
It's not just that.
It's controllable from the internet.
Someone at the electric company decides they don't like you chasing the bob cat away from your kids and a hack later; you have no power and no one is able to figure out why.
@@scotttovey chasing the bob cat away from your kids?
My biggest issue with something like that is must be connected to the Internet. That's a no go for me, I already hate the idea that my "smart bulbs" don't work if I lose my internet. Can't imagine loosing communication with my entire electrical panel.
@@Soligniari
I looked at a device a few years back that you plugged a USB drive into and it connected to the local network.
It looked promising but upon further research I learned that you can't configure the device without first logging into the companies internet site.
In addition to a way to log into the device, a reputable developer would have designed it so that you plugged the device into a network port, then plug the USB drive into it, and it automatically shared the drive even if the network was not connected to the internet.
Needless to say; I didn't buy the product.
@@scotttovey the truth is, companies can make "smart" products that communicate within your local network.
But in the personal information mining age that were in why would they?
It's honestly a shame.
Cause security is always an afterthought with the majority of these companies.
The problem with Span is they require the use of their cloud, and they don't have a direct, locally-accessible REST API I can use to integrate it into my custom home automation. I suspect the Lumin is similar (I've sent an inquiry). I wish more people would insist on full offline functionality, and full customizability.
Thanks for bringing this up! I'm on the engineering team at SPAN, and we're actually working on local APIs. Most of us are electronics hobbyists and energy nerds in our free time, and a lot of us are dog-fooding the SPAN Panel and already have it installed on our own houses. There are several active internal projects running local APIs that have been demonstrated to the rest of the company already. We understand the SPAN Panel isn't like a security camera or cat feeder that stops working someday, you grumble and find a new one...this is literally built into your house and everything we do on the engineering team is framed in building a product that will be useful for decades. Local API is a big part of that and is important to us, especially the energy nerds on our team who have a SPAN Panel and want to integrate it into their own home automation systems.
The other thing a friend pointed out is that the Span panel doesn’t retain its switch state across power outages. Is that correct?
@@OriginalJetForMe It uses latching relays and can sense the current relay state, so by default a full power off (rare as those are with storage) doesn’t turn anything on or off.
@@Grymac That is good news, as I am getting a Span panel installed next week as an addition to my solar install. As a big Home Assistant nerd an open and local API is essential for proper home management. There are way too many stories of servers suddenly being turned off and devices just stop working or responding, if Span goes out of business today it would be little more than a regular panel with a pointless computer and relay system behind it.
Is there a timeline when local access would be available, and would your team work to have an open API for Home Assistant integration?
I still like the Genny panel. It was $200 installed (electrician doing final connections), I have most of my breakers feeding through it and manually control what gets fed when power is out. I am the 'smart interface'. I know what is there, I have 2 spare breakers in event of a failure, I can swap in or out what my alternate power source is, etc. I watched the episode and replacement follow-up episode where Rich placed and replaced the Hot Water heating source because it failed, and the company had gone out of business. I learned a valuable lesson. Stick to standard parts, easily replaceable, not something that can be destroyed by the inevitable lightning strike.
I could not agree more.
If the system would work it would be nice, but the added failure points that are not easily able to be bypassed make me highly apprehensive.
For most of the country if you lose power you are also going to lose Internet which most likely would hinder your control of the system assuming it didn't fail 5 years after you put in it when you really need it.
@@tmx1911 Yep, for the first time this year, in a 30 minute outage, our internet feed also failed (cable service). Power was restored at home, but no internet. Would have been bad if there wasn't the ability to control power or systems. (I also have everything internal, no cloud services used)
I like money
The good thing about the smart panel I see is being able to monitor the power drawl. Say your HVAC fan starts working harder because of a dirty filter, you can watch the amp drawl increase and know something is wrong.if the smart board ever gets hacked or one of the relays fails you can always straight connect it and bypass the board. No sweat, and the added flexibility is a nice bonus. I like it.
@@jeremiahfoster5810 ... HVAC fan draws LESS when filters are dirty because the fan moves LESS air. BTW, DRAWL = an accent.
I'm in the process of installing the second one, "Span Panel" in my 50 year old townhouse. Installation will be about $1500. Part of that will get help from fed tax credits as tax people have already confirmed qualifies under IRA (2022), for max of $600. With my PV and batteries, I think this will make a significant difference.
Installed the Leviton Smart Panel and Breakers in our Off-Grid Home to help monitor usage. Wish it had the real time usage though. It only shows totals for different periods of time. I can turn the breakers off but not on.
UPDATE: the Leviton ap updated recently and now does show real time usage in Watts. I say realtime but is delayed around 60 seconds but stil better than nothing.
Which I trust as more of a safety feature. I'd much rather have to go manually re-energize a circuit then have it show on, but need the software to activate another part.
I was hoping to see the innards of the fancy panel.
I'm concerned the first retrofit panel had no actual circuits to reset manually. How do you reset it when the circuit running the wifi trips?
What can we turn off with this system that we can't just turn off at point of use? Hot water heater? Furnace? Air conditioner?
I'm somewhat warry of having my home tech linked to the internet, wireless or apps. because they can be turned off by the company in question, have the data stolen or even get hacked.
yeah but they still have to break in through your wi-fi to "get in" right
@@awaara24 depends if your system is connected to the outside internet or not. because then someone could hack in from any place if they really wanted to. or steal your data from whichever company service your using.
Yeah, were there is a will. There is a way for someone. Not matter what it is, this is a old true saying.
@@awaara24 If you are controlling and looking at stuff through a phone app, that's almost surely not true.
Or ten years later, the company goes bust, the app goes dark, and you're SOL.
I appreciate you mention the cost of this equipment, but you glossed over the 'plus installation' part. It is also useful to have an idea of that cost as well. I know 'your mileage may vary' and all that stuff, but there has to be at least a minimum dollar figure that should be mentioned for installation.
Also, how is all this sensitive electronic equipment protected from power surges and lightning? Does it come with a massive surge protector in front of it? Can you even get one that will protect something this large. And the cost of that please.
Very interesting technology and something I would consider.
If you have ever gotten multiple quotes from independent contractors, the installation price is IMPOSSIBLE to predict at a local level, let along a national level.
Big increase in complexity, headaches trying to replace that custom control board 25 years from now, difficulties with phone apps not being updated when a company goes out of business, I can almost guarantee subpar/outsourced software where security is tenth priority, meaning a remote attack could start flipping your circuit breakers- all for a slight improvement in functionality where you can monitor control circuits via a phone app. I'm an electrical engineer who loves technology when it makes sense- this really doesn't seem like a good idea for stuff you want to work for the next several decades. Hard pass.
I really wish this video had touched on more of the tradeoffs and considerations instead of just being a showcase for the latest gadget to hit the market.
Very valid points here
@@2024301 It makes more sense to have outlets or the appliances have the smart tech. Having it built into an electrical panel sounds like a huge issue when a company decides to end of life support for it.
Or this might be all local control a la be able to fold into home assistant.
Over the air updates (OTA) solves this and improves everytime engineers discover a new idea / fix
@@twentystwentythree ota is awful. The last thing I want is my appliance auto updating to some doofy intern code that was pushed accidentally and now my system is bricked. Also ota doesn't matter if there's no company to push it.
KISS ... Keep It Simple & Straightforward ... so anyone can fix it, not just the original installer.
That looks beautiful and all. But what happens down the road if and when the company who makes the product goes out of business? The cool handy dandy smartphone control goes out the window because it probably runs through the company's servers somehow. And then what happens if one of the relays needs to be replaced and once again, if the company went out of business? Now what? You've got a pretty fancy $3500 breaker panel that's no different than the regular panels.
Not just out of business, but the product no longer being supported by the manufacturer due to being replaced by a new product, or just abandoned due to company acquisition. Also software has a very short life cycle, so it will probably not be updated after 3-5 years from first release.
@@LegoTux yeah, I can't imagine these panels will make their way in too many homes.Their high costs aren't worth the possible risk of the product not being supported down the road.
Definitely an interesting product, but I would only consider it if it allowed local control + API, so I can either control it from my phone manually without internet access and tie it in to my existing automation system.
I'm sure everything works as planned except for when the board fails, app fails, etc... Unless you absolutely need a smart panel I would stay conventional. You can easily control it yourself and it's easy to troubleshoot.
Yup. And a $2k installation. Cheaper just to leave everything on. lol.
I wish this existed in a way where it was still useful off the internet. We don’t know if this company is going to be around for 30 years, providing software support for this panel.
Leviton has a similar panel. They use smart breakers that can be monitored and controlled by a hub. If a breaker fails you replace it in less than 10 minutes. If the hub breaks you replace it. This all in one smart panel looks to be a pain to fix.
@gdubb420gw You sound like a kid that doesn't consider the overall reliability of anything. That's cute.
Start getting fancy and everything goes to shits!
Given the few times we have lost power for more than a day, it would take 300 years for a payback on this. As a corollary caution, I purchased a two stage AC unit with a special electronic motor. Supposedly , I would save money over time. The motor control crapped out after five years. The cost to replace was my potential savings for more than 10 years. Love technology but it can bite you back.
Recommended protection , lightning, over voltage, under voltage, ect.
No offense fellas, but being somebody who built his own off grid system and the only thing I didn’t do since I didn’t understand how to do the panel connection to the grid.
My electrician put in a switch for under 100 bucks and all I have to do is walk over to the panel and flip it on when the grid goes down!
Then I have total control to flip on any breaker for any appliance I want or flip off.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t need to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for the few times the grid may go down and use my smart phone to turn it on or off! Total waste of money if you ask me! 😒
you do realize that this product is for people (control freaks?) who hate going to the basement or garage to do it manually.
I'm afraid I'm in the large minority here...getting solar and a battery backup and cant imagine doing the system without this and being able to dynamically change the critical loads panel. And it saves me from needing to install one as well which lowers the true price by a couple hundred bucks
If we invested as much in infrastructure as we do safeguarding against failures of infrastructure, we wouldn't need so many complicated, expensive, decentralized fixes... and it would benefit everyone, not just the richest among us.
Agreed. The people most impacted by power failures are also the people that can't afford these. These are cool guy toys for the wealthy homeowner.
Wow, perfect timing! The day I decided to search for "smart panel critical loads" was the same day this video was published. Must be a sign!
He looked at the component of delivery of electric. Yes time of day usage is important, but now the electric companies are taking advantage of delivery, which is actually more money than the electric usage coming into your home.
Very entertaining video. Glad to see it at the start of the day
You can monitor the power through them,
Add a UPS (uninterrupted power supply) to all of your computer systems, router and or modem so these critical systems don’t skip a beat.
how quickly we forget that cable / internet can go down for an entire area when the power goes out. A built in UPS won't help there.
@@rupe53 there’s countless occasions when our electricity goes out for anywhere between 5 seconds and 20 minutes that my connection continues to be connected and because I have a UPS connected I remain connected. Examples are, working from home connected to a VPN through my employer and while playing Call of Duty over my gaming system. The internet hub that supplies your internet connection is often not affected and is normally miles away from your house that is being affected by a power outage.
@@itzjoeylo4501 ... while this can be true, many times it is not. In my area they have gotten lazy with cable booster upkeep and the battery backup generally lasts maybe 24 hours, despite the fact that we have a firehouse on this node. (good UPS will go 3-5 days) This is especially obvious when power goes out on a main road and most of the town is dark. It's also a problem when a car accident takes out a pole and the wires / fiberoptic is damaged. A multiday outage might only happen every few years but we are all living in caves by that point. OTOH, storms like Sandy and Irene put us out for a week at a time. An ice storm we had 15 years ago did the same thing.
@@itzjoeylo4501 just curious do you have your ethernet lines protected for power surges?
Долго искал эту информацию, спасибо, что поделился, отличное видео
Found something else that is pretty awesome. Eaton Smart Breakers. I found them, and they are a alternative to replacing the whole panel or all your switches. You can monitor the power through them, and also turn the switches off remotely much like these smart panels. It is not as all encompassing as say, the Span Smart Panel, however, they give the same functionality over the breakers they replace. The only major issue is that a single switch style takes two slots with the smart breakers, and that means you may have to consolidate smaller loads to accommodate. Looking into it, they have two types, one of which is the BR switch style that my panel already uses.
You can tell Ross is Richard's son only by his moves and the way he explains things.
I can totally see it
Love that the wifi is higher than fridge in his example
Thanks to the author for the video
Ok! Nice things. Thanks.
It's cool for sure, but I question the return on investment and the security. Seems like you could control your circuits just as easily by manually flipping circuit breakers and using a generator interlock, or a suicide cord back feeding into your welder/electric dryer. Obviously, some folks would prefer a safer alternative, like the generator interlock. I bought my interlock kit on amazon for $80 and installed it myself in about an hour. Cool stuff, but just doesn't seem practical in my eyes.
Do any of these smart panels have an integrated display where you can do manual adjustments in the events an app goes down?
Very helpful video. Thank you.
Great concept. Also, think about if we had wireless electricity which really different from solar energy. !
This is amazing. gotta look into this
At this point in time it seems to be an expensive nice to have. If you have extra money. It also would require more extra time playing with it. My limited time on earth needs to be spent on having fun. Not fighting another tech thing in my life with a phone. That will be replaced next week with something new.
I made a conscious decision to use zero smart devices in my home when I rewired, the only thing I have connected to the internet is my security system. The other issue is one we've all been dealing with and thats the supply chain issue, particularly with computer chips. I prefer tried and true long term predictablity something that can't be said for anything computer controled/dependent...
You have your security system connected to the net and are worried about security? I don't think you understand how broken that entire comment is. Either that, or you don't understand the difference between the "internet" and a LAN or home network. And if true, then your comment is even more shambolic.
Nice material presented in this video.
Automated controls are the future definite an interesting product.
With smart panels all being built with wifi to cell phone management, what is being done to secure that communication link? Are the manufacturer's apps being created with a built-in VPN?
You're asking about security and a VPN while using the internet to post a comment to a CZcams video owned by a company that has had data breaches before? LOL Get out of here with that nonsense.
So many people asking that same question and acting like they all aren't actually on the one thing they fear the most.
I find it ironic and wonder if you all are still riding horses or have central heat and AC? Why are you on the internet? lol "AHHHH this new fangled technology!"
The all in one system they’re demoing is from SPAN. I know they don’t like to advertise but I wish they would sometimes so that folks can find these solutions
So what if the grid goes down your cell phone has nothing to connect to how do you control the loads in your house? If you have a Wi-Fi system in your home, but that Wi-Fi system has nothing to connect to does your phone become operative? Does a smart panel, shut off?
He said the “old school” method was to have a generator fed sub panel for 6-12 circuits. I just installed it, by myself. It’s considered old school? Wow. Think about how many American households don’t even generators or sub panels … and now it’s old school? Believe me when I tell you that my family and friends think it’s “new school” for me to have a generator fed sub panel in case the lights go out!
I did generators for near 25 years and a secondary panel was VERY common then, and now. The more common approach today is a bigger gen set with built in monitoring to drop heavy loads as needed. Of course, this is only operational on gen power, not on utility power. Basically, the old school is an "extra panel" next to the main panel. They were by far the most popular till the manual interlocks became approved in recent years.
Thanks for the video it's great
Span is $4500 for the panel alone right now. $4500 for an electrical panel without installation is absolutely insane.
So $1.5 k more for a panel that does a lot more than the one they have shown here? 🤔
Sounds like a deal to me. 🤷♂
is it really worth buying?
Great concept
Great concept. Also
How does the NEC Regulate this integration
thanks for the video
Great video!
Very interesting video.
I looked with interest.
instructive video
It is very interesting!
very interesting video...
Great video
Can I use this as an electric reader for a 3 unit single family home that has 3 sub panels but one main panel (one electric bill) to bill back per unit for the electrical use?
The only real world practical application is for solar and wind power where regulating your load usage on your battery system is of the utmost importance.
Agreed. And yet, if you're in an emergency situation that requires you to be on backup, you can also cut down to bare essentials. Then slowly add more usage over the next days if you don't know how to calculate how much power things use. This would be fun and useful ... but if there's no kill switch to remove software control of your circuits, that doesn't seem safe. I'd like to know if there's a way to kill it if needed. :)
Nice panels, nice video
Nice video!
If I sell my home to an old lady who isn't interested in Smart technology, will the panel function like a normal panel with no smart tech engagement or are you required (on some basic level) to connect to and configure it?
Also, if my Wi-Fi router bites the dust, is there a way to switch the smart settings from the panel? Or am I locked into the way it was configured in the app until I replaced my Wi-Fi router?
All of these are able to act as a standard panel. They just simply have additional features for people who want more control OR have a backup system. IE generator/battery/solar etc.
Yes. Well, mostly. It can depend on the panel. Some have a direct interface built in and some do not.
Interesting video.
I wonder how much does it cost
Good to see
Very interising site, video. Okey, like
excellent
Good job
Definitely an interesting product.
Intrsting video...i like it
Very interesting
I would highly recommend🤩
It’s cool but a very small convenience for a very large price tag. It’s not worth it. Maybe in the future when the price lowers considerably.
SUPER!!!///
Wish it had the real time usage though. It only shows totals for different periods of time.
I can't even find a regular combo 200amp electrical panel anywhere, any brand at a reasonable price these days. Local electrical distributor - nada. Big box stores - nada. Ebay - nada. Amazon - nada
Спасибо
I think I'm gona go with leviatins all in one 200 amp for my panal upgrade what I like is its solar ready and has smart breakers if you want to use them in case electronics fry I can just replace a breaker not printed controll boards
Good project
good project
Thank you.
Good luck!
As always, it's nice to watch your video, thank you for your efforts, I'm waiting for new releases
Very good
I'm not so sure. This is going to turn into what Nest has become, where you used to be able to just use APIs directly with the thermostat, but after Google acquired them, they shut that off and made it so everyone has to buy a Google Home hub. Now the $200 smart thermostat is no better than a $50 programmable thermostat.
thank you for the video
i understand
Good, very good
everything is very interesting
Thanks for the video
I like the concept, however, I do not like that it is dependent on an app, to control the circuits. I would need it to trip the breaker to turn the things off. Not just switch a relay. I shouldn’t need to use my phone to switch my breakers.
I like how the smart panel has an Arduino Mega 2650 as a control board. But smart isn't always better. Automobiles are a fine example is the onboard PC fails that car will not start and major cost for repair. before CP were added change a wire for a few bucks and the car still runs. Now everything is fly by wire on cars. so your fuel and brake pedals function wirelessly not by a cable as in the earlier days. if the PC goes out you lose all control of the vehicle. not a good thing at all!
very good
very nice video
Super nice
nice invention
Cool!
respect
Nice video