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Blind Audio Test |Devastated Audiophiles - A $12000 vs $500 System Result? NO DIFFERENCE!
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2019
- This is NOT a joke or satire video - I found and am reviewing this blind demo test story amongst an audiophile friends gathering in Spain | 14 people / 37% chose System A worth $12000. | 14 other people / 37% chose System B worth $500 | 10 friends / 26% could not decide. Really. Check it out.
However, I easily reached 3 Key Conclusions every audio lover needs to know and I invite you to watch the video and add your own conclusions below to share and discuss with the audiophile community. Thanks, Mario
The Link: matrixhifi.com/...
The Other Audio CZcams sites I really like : many with their unique view, approach, expertise!! I owe many of them a debt of gratitude...
Ian @ HiViNyws - www.youtube.co....
Sean @ Zero Fidelity - www.youtube.co....
Zeos @ Z Reviews - / zeosreviews
The Audiophiliac - www.youtube.co....
Paul @ PS Audio - / sharanel. .
Tharbamar - / tharbama. .
Thomas & Friends - www.youtube.co....
Audiorpheus - www.youtube.co....
Andrew Robinson - www.youtube.co....
New Record Day - www.youtube.co....
Mr. Vinyl Obsessive - www.youtube.co....
Vinyl EyeZZ - www.youtube.co....
Joe 'N Tell - www.youtube.co....
Analog Planet w Michael Fremer - / 21stcent. .
Kent Hewitt - for Jazz Piano Musician Tips cuz' I am a jazz pianist :) www.youtube.co....
I reached three key conclusions from reviewing this blind sound test. Please add your key conclusions here in the comments section to discuss! Thanks! Mario
The sad thing I've realised about being an audiophile is that I don't use equipment to listen to records, I use records to listen to equipment.
Good observation! I just bought a new Jungson 20th anniversation JA1 preamplifer, I'm certainly going to use my records to try to "hear how it sounds" :) Cheers, Mario
So do I, unapologetically. I practically quit buying new music a decade ago. Instead I buy speakers.
I agree, but it's ok. I tweak and like to spot the difference , if any, so I need reference recordings.
Cringe af
It gets worse. Audiophiles spend hundreds or thousands on cables, even cables that carry digital data.
How about speaker cable stands that raise the cables off the carpet because: static haha. I also still love it every time I hear an audiophile call patch cables “interconnects”.
Yeah, reminds me of the test of digital cable for CD to DAC, the bog standard no name black wire delivered with hifi equipment vs not completely straightened metal wire coat hanger vs 4-figure digital interconnect. There where no clear winner and plenty of positive verbal gushing over the audio quality of the coat hanger 😂👌
Digital cables run an analog signal which can be corrupted.
I have heard a difference between USB cables carrying data from a computer to a dac. Ity's smallish but audible. However a qed cable at around $20 is sufficient.
@@Coneman3 Yes, absolutely. That is why there is error correction.
Hello Mario,
Sad that I didn't see your video before but your absolutely right.I am a studio musician and did many work in recording studios for years.
Our brains makes us hear what we want, our ears compensate for that.
There are even power cables or other cables being sold for thousands of dollars each. Unbelievable. I did many tests but there is no difference at all. Every audio cable takes away something from the sound then other things become slightly more noticeable but it' s what you prefer. It's all the same with ad-da converters. Even a 100 dollar converter is as good as a 10.000 dollar converter.Nobody hears it blindtested.Today distortion levels are so low it's only measurable. Coverters are very transparant today and this is the same for amps, they are so low in disortion and high in transparency. Speakers are the most distorting piece of gear but even with a good pair of speakers your are set.
I also listen to a lot of viny records and have a Vestax turntable from the 90's which then costed about I think 1200 euro or something like that. I have a cheap Stanton stylus on a Technics cartridge and my turntable is aligned properly. I have tested what they claim lots of slipmats and other accesories but sorry it's just a bunch of crap that people believe it sounds better. They want to sell this for high prices but it's all bullshit.
I even wonder if there is much difference between very high end reference turntable, tonearms, cartridges and stylusses and external phono pre amps. As far as I'm cocerned not really and all about dampening your speakers and turntable and amp bla bla bla. Believe me it doesn't make any huge difference.
90-95 % is snake oil.
What matters is what you like and good speaker placement and a little bit of acoustic treatment or repositioning your furniture.
Ok a nice subwoofer can add an extra dimension but that's it.
I have four Philips ribbon speakers coupled with a plain Sony integrated amp and everything sound very nice.
No need to spend thousands of dollars to be honest.
The same shit is happening in the audio plug-in developers market, they did reinvent the wheel maybe a thousand times and every day there are new plug-ins released, new eqs, synths, compressors and this or that with slogans like phase coherent or this or that improved but nothing new, when blind testing all the plugins actually nobody hears the difference or can tell which is which if level matched.
What do you think?
Never go full retard bro...
Less is more !
Speakers > Placement > Room > Source Material > Amp > DAC > Cables Budget in that order.
Dear Veggie, you bet, I have notice so much how speaker placement changes the ballgame....
A reviewer once stated that he switched out his $300 audio rack to a $2500 audio rack and suddenly heard vast improvements thru the same system. Claimed definition, imaging and Soundstage sounded vastly better. LMAO at his gullible stupidity.
Peter Walker of Quad said 'There is no difference between any two competently designed amplifiers'. Over the years I've come to realize how right he was.
I recently purchased a second hand pair of speakers from 2008. they’re still made even today and cost 4.000 euro new and I paid only 600. Amplifier is a budget Yamaha amp with loudness. Wonderful sound. All is well.
I have no doubt!
I do not know if audiophile are in love with music or in their music equipment. Please answer
I would consider myself an audio enthusiast rather than an audiophile (connotations) but the answer is both. I love listening to music but I also love well engineered hardware and making adjustments for best results. With that being said, you won't see me spending tens of thousands of Euro on "audiophile" amplifiers or DACs when a pair of NC400 monoblocks and a Schiit Modius are both essentially perfect.
For many people, the audio hobby is about spending more money on hardware than anybody else, which I think is silly. To me, it is about maximizing demonstrably audible performance (room treatment, placement, DSP room correction) and then enjoying the fruits of my labor.
@@weeblabs2939 Hey Weebs, lately I have my heart and eye on a Cayin A88T tube amplifer. What a superb piece of equipment. Your'e absolutely right, however it sounds, which I'm sure will sound terrific, I just WANT IT. :) Best, Mario
Hard to say....it's likely different for each person. I can only speak for me. I like my system a lot, and am kind of fussy about it. In a nutshell, I want it to be good enough to "take me into the room" as it happened in the studio, so I can share in the music experience. I much appreciate what my equipment can do for me, but ultimately I like it because it satisfies my music fix.
When you have heard a song a hundred times with an average headphone. Walk into a hifi store, listen to the same song and find that little reverb or that little instrument that was hidden. That’s where the love is. It’s like you were seeing in black and white and didn’t know.
I recently had a similar experience with the reverse situation. I decided to add a 2nd turntable while keeping the rest of the system the same.
System: McIntosh MA352 Integrated Amp, Klipsch Forte II speakers (splurge purchase 1989 now with updated x-over and tweeter diaphragm). Phono preamp - Project Tube Box S2 for one TT and the Mac internal preamp for the 2nd TT, both set for the capacitance of the phono cartridges.
The Turntables:
1- Thorens TD-160C with Shure V15III cartridge purchased new in the '70s ($276 = $1200 today) connected to the Tube Box S2.
2- VPI Prime, 10" 3D arm on uni-pivot and Ortofon M2 Bronze cartridge (bought 2021 $3600) connected to the Mac phono preamp.
My impression after trying to listen to both at the same volume levels (phone VU meter used at listening position) was that the 2 turntable setups sounded remarkably alike. There appeared to be some nuanced differences but nothing noticeable enough that would prompt me to make this purchase again.
Nice share Elliot, Thanks alot! for me its my wife's 25 year old Sanyo DVD/CD player combo. I admit my new more expensive CD player sounds "better" but better is a funny word. the Sanyo sounds terrific, the dynamic range is more compressed which makes it sound punchier and some would actually prefer that with different kinds of music. My $1000 Amari LP10MK turntable sounds ridiculously good with an AT95E cartridge. I'll upgrade the included preamp and cartridge some day. Best, Mario
Thanks for your post. I have an upgraded Thorens TD 160 S MkV with a Nagaoki MP200 cartridge and Klipsch Quartet speakers. The VPI Prime or Scout was going to be my upgrade, but your comment has made me think twice. Perhaps I better use the money to buy some records or of course the Forte IV ;-)
After upgrading my amp to PrimaLuna, I called an audioshop to ask if I now also need to upgrade my recordplayer. He said: no it's fine, you need to spend at least 3 times as much to make an improvement.
A lot is BS. Years ago at a hifi show Perth Western Australia. During a speaker demo, I said they sounded like a 3 way. He asked how I could tell , I told him I could hear dips at crossover points and told him the points. After he said I was full of shit, nobody can hear the subtle difference in audio gear.
The truth is I read about them a few days before 😊
One of the best videos I've seen on similar topics, and it's not as if I'm surprised by the results of the test. Good for you, seriously.
Hi Scott and thanks alot. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner, had been focused on other work projects these weeks but I still love this little Dragon Quartz Audio project of mine. Cheers, Mario
My conclusion is simple, as long as you enjoy the music you are playing then that's all that matters.
People who buy expensive snake oil Hi-Fi systems are only showing their friends and peers how wealthy they are, i.e. look at me, see how rich I am, and has nothing whatsoever to do with enjoying music.
The only people that listen to my hifi is me and my family. Money shouldnt be part of the equation, however, great designers, excellent parts, and small batch manufacturing, all cost money. It is what it is. We can all whine about how we should all be getting everything we want for 500 bucks. Thats just not how the real world works. If you are happy with what you have, great. If you are going to tell me that a Shindo and Devore system doesnt bring anything forward over a Behringer, tell me when you have experienced it yourself for any good amount of time. I can't speak for that equipment shown here. I do not have experience with them. I do have a lot of experience with professional audio gear, they are not the same. They do not produce the same sound as great consumer audio gear.
@@veniceog Hi John, my next purchase is a Cayin A88T tube amp, it lists for close to $2k and I'll be able to pick it up here in China for around $1100. I just WANT it cuz its so gorgeous and I'm sure it will sound as terrific as any of the reviews suggests.
@@mrmaschinaadventures Thats really cool. Currently, I’m using a 15 year old Balanced Audio Technology VK-3ix preamp and a Pass Labs X150.8 matched to Zu Audio Omen Defs. If you want to hear big differences, I would not recommend bookshelf speakers.
At any time, I own 3 power amplifiers and have owned more numerous tube, mosfet, bipolar transistor, hybrids, Class A, A/B and D amps. I personally hear they deliver sound differently. I fancy myself a student of the differences amplification philosophies. This begins with the quality of the bass delivery (depth, ease, and slam), them the midrange (sweetens; moving away from shrill) and the highs (airyness and delicacy). Really great amps will transmit the spatial cues coming from upstream components. DACs Ive owned a few, most DACs struggle to outshine others. I have found the Denafrips Ares II to be a great piece that competes with unit many times its price. It is distinctly exceptional over sub-1000 dollar DACs if you like and organic sound. If digital clarity, but not glaring, is more your taste, the midrange SMSL offerings are amazing. For phono, this is where improvements come at a great cost. Phono preamps, the BAT VK-P6 is amazing when it comes to dynamics and energy. I’ve settled on an older Allnic H-1201, which excels in placing recorded elements in distinct spaces in front and to your sides. With a capable phono, I challenge anyone to listen to any sub-300 dollar phono cartridge and the Dynavector 20x2L and tell me you don’t hear a difference. Between a Rega Carbon and the Dynavector, its night and day.
@@veniceog The Ares II DAC was the game changer when paired with my KLH Model 5 speakers... Even folks that did not know I slipped in the Ares II heard the difference and commented positively on its addition. I was so impressed, I bought their Hades and Thallo amps... Soon to purchase the Pontus II DAC, and then I believe my system will be complete. The DAC does make an incredible difference in the sound, I did not think it would, having owned many chip DACs, that to my ear, all sounded the same. The Ares II was and is a true audible game changer.
There’s a really good sound engineering test online that asks you to ABX test various minor differences in small snippets of sound. Difference in volume, frequency, bit rate, etc. and the differences get smaller and smaller each time, and you have to get a bunch right in a row. It then shows you how you did against others who have taken the test. What it shows is just how much variation there is in people’s abilities to hear super minor differences. Some people absolutely can, but most can’t, and it often requires trained ears, AKA someone who is a pro and has spent their life studying music and sound. And sometimes even some of the pros can’t tell the small differences, but usually more often than not the pros can hear it.
I think before you ABX test gear, you should test the participants hearing and make sure they have the ability to hear small differences in sound, and can hear a wide range of frequencies at least to like 17 kHz or so. Find the right participants, not just random people.
I've seen worse! There is a famous experiment about a switcher box that had the same signal going to both sides. After hours of pro audio engineers convinced there was a difference, the conclusion was that the fact the signal was interrupted was more important to a perceived difference than an actual difference. How embarrassing!
I have been dabbling into the high end audio market and thought I was crazy when I couldn't notice any major change between all my equipment. At first I thought I could, but as soon as I did a blind test I realized it was all wishful thinking. I feel like I have wasted so much time in the hobby. Now I'm focusing on soundproofing, as that seems to be 99% of the difference I can hear. Have you done any tests with expensive and cheap speakers? I recently compared a blind test with my magnepan 1.7s to a 600$ elac tower speaker and could only tell the most subtle differences after adjusting bass and treble on each. Placing the elacs in the location as the magnepans even seemed to imitate that wall of sound effect. Maybe I just don't have ears for it, but I certainly don't hear the raving praise of terms audiophiles have given the magnepans.
thanks so much for jumping in Asa. For me it was interesting when I compared the DT-9 standmounts to the JBL 530 standmounts. They are completely different approach and style. Yet in fact, i could only notice one significant difference between the two. The DT obviously had a warmer upper midbass. The JBL threw a larger soundstage. Otherwise, they sounded incredibly similar. One thing I will say on amps is that you have to be talking about true quality amps and preamps, not consumer grade crap. So then we know often the difference between $1000 and $10,000 gear is in fact definitely there but its just not that important!! The gear sounds "slightly different" in the bass or mid or highs or in the height and depth of the soundstage. None of it means it sounds "better". :) Cheers, Mario
then you've never had a proper demo unfortunately - you've never been to a competent hifi dealer
@@antigen4 so true
No one has ever said that more expensive CD players, amplifiers, DACs or cables actually sound better.
They merely imply it and let your imagination do the rest.
All reviewers, yes all reviewers, know this and that's why they avoid blind listening tests like the plague. The embarrassment would instantly destroy any remaining credibility.
Most of them don't even have good hearing due to age effects.
If hi fi consumers knew this, that would be the end of hundreds of companies that are basically fleecing consumers selling the emperor's new clothes. Buy the best speakers you can afford and get normal round of the mill gear, it is not worth it to buy hi end amps, cables, etc etc. You'll save thousands of £.
Yes Rafa, thanks so much for adding your thoughts. We just need be sure the amplifier quality is a certain minimum capability and not a too cheap shelf consumer grade. They do sound flat and with less bass than a true good quality integrated amp or A/V receiver, which can easily be.purchased for around $300 to $1000. Best! Mario www.dragonquartzaudio.com
i mean, thats essentially the same thing with most top end non-industrial products. slightly faster phones every year so that consumers can swipe and switch some milliseconds faster
Always curious of companies that don't sell anything under $1000
The customers are split in "believers" and people who just want the best sound. You can't convince a believer. They say that only they can hear what they hear. The others buy just a random amp and the best speakers.
Our Ears, Rooms and Speakers are so bad that even passive Hifi-Highend-Systems work, no matter what they do the signal. If our ears and speakers were better, we would never use passive systems with all that different amps and cables taking away quality.
So let the highenders buy all that stuff, they won't make the sound worse.
It's the recording quality and the speaker/room/listening position. After getting those things right, amps, dacs and cables are an easier to implement.
Easier but also mostly pointless beyond a point and that point has gotten very cheap now.
As you say: speakers, room and placement are the real things. Cables are completely unimportant unless you're using $2 cable over 40 foot runs or something. DACs - well designed DACs are in most kit or can be bought for well under $100. Amps - basic but decent amps are enough.
Even aged 16 when I experimented with plugging my shitty speakers into my dad's hifi and found that the difference in sound between his speakers and mine was like the difference between a grand piano and a toddler's toy piano, I realised that it is the speakers that make the biggest difference, by a large margin. We have been told (by high end source manufacturers) that we must put every penny into the source device "because source material that is not extracted cannot be recovered". That is eminently logical, except that it is a false argument, because by the same token, crappy speakers will happily massacre those expensively wrought nuances, and then some. Instead, a system is as weak as its poorest link, wherever that is in the chain, and we should understand that the variability due to speakers is an order of mag higher than that in non-junk modern electronics, so start with those.
Absolutely, apology I didn't reply sooner. Speakers are FIRST, then a fairly high resolute capable source and amplifier and you're done. They do not need to be expensive and I love the vintage stuff too :) Thanks for writing in!! Cheers, Mario
dac amp silver tweeter. maybe mono ampce ?
better dac is the cheapest. speakers the next decades of hi end graphics cards ??? years ?
classic tweeter xD ?
nice video, thank you
as one of 62 years young, with 45 years of listening experience, can add two things:
when young, only metters listening as louder as possible
now, i only want my system to sound nice at low level, to hear all frequences at the same level, nothing more
and paradox is, amp with more power will do it much better than amp with less power
I found the preamp section to be very important along with the DAC. The addition of an R2R Ladder DAC to my system was the real game changer, then adding a quality Class A preamp along with a matching Class A/B was the next step. All Denafrips system, and the speakers are the KLH Model 5. I like to listen at lower volumes too, and find this combination works.
Soundquality (%) = (49% × InputSoundQuality) + (49% x LoudspeakerQuality) + (2% RestComponents) During my lifetime, this has always proven to be true. For those who buy 500$ cables....thanks from your Audiophile dealer!
I bought great speakers, then I knew I had a crappy receiver amp, then I bought a real quality amp. Boom. Those two components are the heart. Then I had an old Sanyo combo dvd/cd player, it sounded great, really does. Then I bought a new expensive CD player and I right away noticed it was less compressed, the dynamic range was wider, the soundstage was larger like a bigger window, the resolution was sweeter, this was a noticeable but still a relatively minor difference. If any person walked in the room while I was using the cheap old player they would still think it sounds terrific... Cheers, Mario
you forgot amplifier.
Snake oil.is rampant.
One important parameter to look at is matching loudspeaker power output level and loudspeaker power rating at matching impedance.
Eg. Amplifier maximum RMS output level = 3 or 4 times loudspeaker RMS power rating.
my Rotel Mono blocks only do 125rms into 8 ohms and NHT SB3 are rated 175rms and they play louder than I cam comfortable listening to them by around 80 percent volume.
nice point of view.. yup.. speakers, "good enough" source, "good enough" power, and room treatment works.
Nothing new. I'm surprised that you had to become that old, to come to this conclusion.
I have come to the conclusion that you don’t need 5.1 for good movie sound. A good 2.0 system or 2.1 system will do a convincing job of surround effects with movies. 2. Diy audio gives you super hi end sound on diet shear budget if you know what you are doing. 3 modern class d amps are sounding super clean now in 2020. Smsl ad18, sa300 are good examples. 4. Room placement is going to make a bigger difference than most equipment changes or upgrades.
Thanks for jumping in. Yep the room acoustics and moving the speakers has a huge impact on what's coming out of those speakers. My room has too much echo and when i turn up the volume past a certain mid high volume level I can hear it all start to fall apart and I can tell its because there's too much echo bouncing all over the damn place.... Best, Mario
I love this video and your perfect presentation. The disbelief and disgust is very clear, and in this case very meaningful. Thanks for sharing.
lets take a look at what speakers are made of and do some math. a couple of sheets of MDF the cheapest wood on the market a little bit of steel & aluminum some magnets copper wire a few paper or poly cones crossovers and some screws. the amount of material used to make a set of speakers couldn't even build a 5x5 shed and that costs 500 to 800 dollars so where does the thousands of dollars come from. six year's ago i built a pair of 15 inch 4ways with high quality driver's for 1100 dollars my brother-in-law spent over 9000 just on his speakers alone and can't understand why my 2000 dollar system makes his sound like something you get at a Walmart. i run a technics su-v98 with a crown xli-1500 and a technics 1200 turntable. my next door neighbor has a set of Klipsch forte iv with a Velodyne DD18 sub after hearing my system he comes over 3 times a week to play a few songs.. today it would cost 1600 to build a set like the ones i built. when i was at crest audio back in the early 90s we built special stage speaker cabinets for Phil Collins & Metallica the wire inside of them is 16g tinned copper electrical cord rated at 300v. regular speaker wire is 50v for 100 watts rms anything after that you are using electrical cord some with fancy end's and calling it speaker cable.. now here's where the thousands of dollars comes from audiophiles think wine taste better if they drink it out of crystal even though it comes out of a glass bottle. anyone who spends over 2500 on a FULL brand new stereo system needs to go back to SCHOOOOL
if you can't tell the difference in sound between a $500 stereo and a $10 000 you need to get your ears cleaned .
I think quality of kit varies much less than people think. The most important factors in getting great sound is the structure of the system. Is it active? Biamped? Dual mono amp? 3 way speakers ? Damped vibrations? Clean power? Etc
I did something like this at home. Nakamichi cd player on optical vs cheap sony dvd player on rca. Both to same receiver and same speakers. Two copies of same cd. Pressed play at the same time and I just had to change source on the remote. It was an instant A vs B test. Closed my eyes. Switched many times quickly so I couldn't know which was which. Both sounded the exact same. I understand that cd is the more constant example but still.
HI Rafael and thanks for jumping in! Your example is perfect. Last week I had bought a new frame for my walnut top on which all of my gear is arranged, so I did some redesigning of the space. I reran the wires, I meticulously separated the AC electric wires from any input and speaker wires. I used twist ties and its so nice and neat now. The input wires are at least one foot away from the AC wires and the whole system sounds better than it did before.
No :) that's a ridiculous story. It sounds exactly the same as it did before. :) The ONLY thing that I have found significantly changes the sound is the combination of speaker placement plus room acoustics. Cheers, Mario
So true, what you are saying, I can hear audiofools screaming. Lol
I remember in the early 80’s Stereo Review did one of three comparisons with a curtain covering the whole system the change very expensive amps and audiophile speakers to none audiophile and the results had Stereophile and the Absolute Sound in chaos for months ripping SR apart. At the time Audio Review who was more measurement intense and their tests were on par with Stereo Review. Their arguments against the two low end mags is what got me thinking I’m getting off the hi end train next station. It was then I was listening to the music not the equipment. I then came to the conclusion that the industry better start putting out better mixes in their recordings. Outstanding video. Thanks 👍👍
To use a couple of metaphors, a Honda and a Bentley will both get you to your destination, but the Bentley will be a wonderful experience for the senses. A Timex and Seiko watch are just as accurate as a Rolex or a Patek Philippe, but the pride of ownership and knowing the inherent quality of the high end Swiss brands is all part of wearing the watch; it is not about knowing the time. I would love to own a Pass Labs or Mark Levinson component system but the sound from from my vintage Threshold S/300 amp and pre-amp is probably just as good. There is much to be said about quality construction and design that adds to the listening experience.
If the Classes didnt deliver anything over the Behringer, that doesnt say much for the Classe.
I was thinking the same thing. They're expensive as hell.
100% true. 99.9% of people dont know about amplifier basics like negative feedback So more dollar means more quality for them. This is like believing in god......
De differences between speaker are enormous. Together with your acoustics they make about 80% of the result. Of course you need an amp that can drive the speakers.
What is the perfect wine? There isnt one. It depends on your taste. The same goes for hifi. But as everyone has said, the real difference is in the speakers. Everything else will just bring about smaller differences. And its not to say that the difference more expensive amps and dacs will make are better - they are just a little bit different.
I wear a Rolex and it tells the same time as any other watch. Still prefer the Rolex though.
very good point. I do want a certain level of quality and I just feel satisfied to have it. It may not sound eons better but thats ok I want a pair of $10000 Sonus Faber standmounts, there are a few to choose from and its not only about how they sound. I want them because I freakin' want them. Best, Mario
Even old surround receivers sound the same as high end stereo amps. As long as you don't push the amplifier into distortion there will be no difference. Take an Arcam AVR-200 for example.
If i played music on a $500 guitar vs a $5000 guitar most people wont know the difference. But to a fellow guitar player its night and day. It took my dad hundreds of hours of listening to me play to tell the difference between mahogany and maple. Listening is a skill that you have to train and develop
A friend of mine asked me to listen to his music sound system & give my opinion.. for what he had he thought was the bee's knee's.. meaning it sounded great to him.. To me it sounded ok.. but I would not say that it was very far below what I have.. because he's happy with what sound he can hear at the moment but.. I would say that you can improve your sound system what you have the budget to do so.. then come back & tell me how good your old system is to the new system you have because to him that is all that matters.. making himself happy with what he has.
It's about finding the true sweet spot. I know most aren't even close to it. It's closer than you think. I have a formula to find it that I worked out on my own. The sweet spot makes even crappy speakers sound great.👍
You bet, thanks Ken. I have found with my JBL 530s they sound best when straight and wide apart. A nice big bold sound with just enough soundstage details placing the instruments and voices. I move them closer together and tilt them in slightly and I don't like it all. Best, Mario
All amps DO NOT sound the same. For 22 years the beating heart of my hi-fi system was a premium, British, integrated amp. I recently upgraded to a 4 times the price, preamp monoblocks combo. I expected the difference to be night and day. It wasn’t. Not even dusk and dawn.
After many hours of attentive listening to my upgraded? amplification, I concluded I was not happy with it’s musical reproduction. It was too staccato, lacking acoustic mass/harmonic richness. Fortunately, my local ‘bricks and mortar’ hifi retailer offered to swop out the preamp for 1 he felt would better cater for my listening preferences. It worked.?a more fluid, full bodied, musical reproduction was achieved. More recently, 1 of those monoblocks, died. Whilst it was being resuscitated under guarantee, I reinstalled that 22 year old, class AB, premium, British integrated amp. It was like bumping into a girl that you had an intimate physical relationship with, years ago and spontaneously re-igniting that intimacy. Made you realise just how good sex could actually be.
My resuscitated monoblock was returned to me from the manufacturer about 5 weeks later. I reinstalled it. That was 3 months ago. I’ve spent hundreds, maybe thousands of attentive listening hours customising my auditory system to my system and I can now notice some subtle shortfalls that integrated amp exhibited. I can now appreciate some previously unnoticed virtues of this preamp monoblocks combination. In all seriousness, if I had my time again, would I spend 4 times the price to upgrade my amplification to achieve some subtle differences? Probably not! Note the deliberate use of the words, subtle differences, not, subtle improvement.
I think the fact that my auditory system had 22 years to become conditioned to the sonic qualities of that integrated amp Is a major contributing factor to how I now draw my conclusions. In 22 years time maybe/probably other conditioning factors will influence my conclusions.
I have recently upgraded my speakers. The improvement that made to the musical reproduction is phenomenal. Far out weighs any differences made by upgrading the amplification. I am not an advocate of expensive cables. I’ve not gone for the cheapest, just maybe the next level up. I think it’s more important to keep your cable lengths as short as feasible.
I note that for these blind tests, they didn’t use cheap speakers. I think that speaks volumes. The ATC speakers they used, although excellent speakers, cannot be classed as ‘full range’. Had they have chosen a more substantial speaker, I feel the results may have been very different.
A/b testing can save us all a lot of money. I know you said you feel devastated, but as far as I'm concerned this is a reason to celebrate. You don't need to spend money to enjoy music, not a lot of it.
Exactly! Good point 👍
I've been testing and experimenting all the related about "audio":
recording CD's with "cleaned WAV files"
I tested cables for speakers and RCA made with Ethernet Cat5,
different positions of Speakers and different places I'm in to listen,
reading blogs, websites of audio /system brands, watching videos,
tutorials, watching about the History of American Music like Blues, Rock N' Roll,
paying attention while listening orchestral music like Maurice Ravel or Star Wars Imperial March,
also I was researching definitions of concepts and words to know, and playing with software too.
my conclusion in a way of analogy:
*there are guys very enthusiasts for paint and rims in their cars, tunning the engine, and there is a friendly world for muscle cars, classics or newbie models, TV shows, expos, and the **_High End_** Aston Martin owners, Ferrari or McLaren owners don't get in controversies with VW Beetle owners or Lamborghini Countach collectors, and the Club Chevy is nice too. No controversy about Michelin, Pirelli or Nissan 300ZX and Porsche 911 ~ Audi TT.*
Even I could say there is not a word to say "autophilia, carphilia, carmaniac, musclecarphiliac..."
Audiophile, Audiophilia, just another invented word to enclose, classify with a label one free activity and passion, as always they do: invent words as disseases that maybe could not to be.
invention of audiophilia brought the rise of hostility related when the topic is treated.
nice analogy thanks! Cheers, Mario
As a member of the matrixhifi team, we have done enough tests to be able to ensure that the current world of high fidelity is a hoax. The most logical differences is to invest in the purchase of good speakers.
Greetings!
Miguel, I am honored you found my video of your story and greatly appreciate your taking the time to leave a note here. Thank you so much. If I ever come to Spain I'll be sure to try to meetup for one of your group's equipment sessions! Best to you nuevo amigo! Cheers, Mario
I have read all of your papers in your website and it just confirm even more everything I had already read from other very good sources, like harbeth website, to mention one, and science and not esoterism, tells you that, that all gear sound the same but the speakers, as you say, that, obviously, due to different materials, number of drivers, size, etc. sound different. I really enjoyed the read. Gracias.
@@rafalobo5308 Thanks so much for jumping in and welcome. Indeed, this is such a great and important story. In the end we learn the big key point, 70-80% of your result is the speakers. I will not say all quality amplifiers or CD players or turntable/cartridges twe cannot hear a difference. We often can notice some difference but the difference is quite small. For example, I listened a few years ago to a Marantz amplifier vs. a Shenyang amplifier. I noticed deeper bass output coming from the Shengya amplifier, I A-B back and forth, and that's between those two particular amplifiers. Another time I notice a difference between two CD players, the actual size of the overall soundstage, one was definitely bigger the other definitely smaller, but no other differences I could notice. Another example, JBL 530 speakers are small in size but they sound very big and bold, they are absolutely not a near field monitor style at all as their core quality is JBL's compression driver found in theatres and stadiums. This is important to understand but whether the soundstage is large or nearfield, speakers, this is just one particular speaker design characteristic. So that's it, these are minor differences and no matter what, the listener is still enjoying the music. Cheers, Mario
Don't forget about room treatment!
Hi Michael Thanks for jumping in! Absolutely ! In my current living room, it sounds so Wonderful at nice medium volume levels, Turn it up and it starts sounding less clean and clear, its NOT any component! Its THE room! The melange of sounds are bouncing and echoing around the hard surfaces like a chaotic circus. Thats the reality. I'd say my room is about 20% too lively. My wife's laundry rack covered with Hanging clothes works wonders! Hey keep your eye for a video I'm going to do about this subject. Thanks! Mario
Amp and speaker matching is paramount. Go see alpha audio live comparison, especially the sonus Faber 2 stand mount demo of three bookshelf. I had wyred for sound amps with usher tiny dancer speakers and sounded so dull and lifeless. Try a sugden amps vs Yamaha and say amps and speaker pairings don’t matter.
The problem is that it is difficult for individuals to set up the equipment for blind tests. I selected Def Tech SM 55 fronts after many hours in the Magnolia Room at Best Buy. But my choice was influenced by cost parameters as well as visual input. Luckily I have really enjoyed them.
I chose an inexpensive AVR to power them: a $200 Sony. So I guess I followed your advice without knowing it!
Now I’m looking at subwoofers but I’m trying to be aware of the snake oil phenomenon. More RMS and lower Hz do not equate to listening enjoyment.
Do you have an equivalent rule for subwoofers? If my mains cost $500 how much should I allocate to a subwoofer?
Thanks for your scientific approach.
Wynn, I am going to suggest that a quality amplifer will blow away your $200 Sony thing and bring those speakers to a bigger life. Try the Sprout for example. I have a client who bought a pair of JBL 530s from me, he is driving them with a Sprout and swears it sounds fabulous. There are some other really good amplifer / integrated amp choices out there in the $400 to $800 range, even if you find a used one to save money. When I replaced my cheap Yamaha receiver with a Shengya A10 MKII which only cost me $500 the sound quality went through the roof. So just sharing ideas to consider my friend. Best, Mario
Ask professional musicians f.i. from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra what kind of differences they hear. Average people are not able to do that. And most of them have no idea how acoustic music sounds. So most people will be happy with a portable radio/cd player.
Superb! The 'source 1st' crowd shout 'why amplify ''distorted'' sound'. Response; 'what adequate source (£400 CD?) produces distortion?' 1/2 my system £s are in speakers - being diy probably 80%+ in 'real' world £s. Think that's about right. Having said that, R2R DAC is in £800 range - a noticeable upgrade (paid 40% of that however...) Key agreement; Speakers 1st!! Let's also not underestimate the cost of making things look pretty! Caveat; TT lovers face converting the mechanical to electrical which costs a bit to get to the 'adequate' imo.
yea...I have my JBL 530 standmounts, absolutely wonderful. When I was driving them with a Denon AVR4308 receiver they sounded great. Now I'm driving them with a Cayin A88T tube amplifier, a completely different amplifer in every possible way and it sounds "different" I think and the speakers still sounds great. One of these days I'm going to plug the Denon back in just to check any differences my ears might notice....
Would 'audiophiles' be willing to gamble their system, or part of it, in a blind test, I wonder?
If you can't tell the difference between £40 speaker cables and your Chord £1K cables you lose them. If successful you get a (pointless) upgrade. I don't think you'll get many punters.
I bought cheap vintage on eBay to begin with, which sounded great. I now have spent nearly £1k on used/ dealer returns and it sounds absolutely magnificent, so much so visitors comment, unsolicited.
I find it disturbing the truly obscene sums some spend. They should try listening through their £10k speaker cable whilst viewing images of starving children, and see how it sounds then. I couldn't live with myself, I know that. Where would they be if they couldn't boast? Would anybody buy this stuff???
It's all to easy to fall into the expensive gear trap! They market that stuff very well. And there is so much subjectivity in music perception that there can't be any authoritative truth-in-advertising standards.
I have very nice vintage speakers and they have made all the difference. Now, I will disagree with the host of this clip, I used four different interconnects with COAX out RCA from my CD Player to my Integrated Amp and only one made it and it was CONSIDERABLE differences NOT subtle. I believe this host was very incorrectly stating circumstance. Speakers are Vintage Celestion SL6si and speaker cables are too good to even give you my source. Tube Hybrid amp. The cables and interconnects have made huge upgrades NOT subtle to my sound. He was over zealous in his assessment and very dismissive in his comments of all cabling interconnects and speaker cables.
Also spending time and money on room treatments should be up there so you hear the speakers and not the room.
The one factor not mentioned is how is the hearing of these 38 people had? You have heard of tone deafness, so consider how our brains interpret the things we smell, taste, hear and see. Obviously, these people did not have sufficient hearing to be able to differentiate the systems. Maybe the music they were listening to did not provide a good basis to compare systems? I can differentiate in a blind test different systems we have using the same speakers and sources between a NAD amp and a NAIM superuniti. We jus thave to accept to some people music is sound, while to others there is nuance and subtleties that can't be missed.
THANK YOU FOR A REFRESHING OUTLOOK / EDUCATION , STAY REAL AND AWESOME !!
Regardless of what we're comparing, it could be speakers, amplifiers, receivers, cables, or microphones, there will always be a group of friendly snobs who think quality is based on price. Who wants to admit that their $20,000 system is no better than a $500 system? The reality is that we hear what we want to hear. This is especially true in sighted tests. It's all just nonsense. lol
Thanks for jumping in. I admit I would love to buy a pair of exotic $10,000 Sonus Faber handcrafted guarneri or liuto or amator standmounts. And if I build up a bunch of $$ I will and I'm certain they will sound "better" than my current JBL 530 standmounts.... noticeably better? Probably. ALOT better, highly doubtful. Cheers, Mario
The main three things that dictate sound quality are 1 speakers,2 speakers 3 speakers.End of story.The golden ear brigade fall for the placebo effect time after time.Thats why they opt out of abx blind tests done rigorously because it will shatter their illusion that their 50 grand system was a waste of money.
Yea man, absolutely.... after the speakers, all you really need is a standard good amplifier and source and you're 90% of the way there....the rest is fun is you feel like spending the money on toys, which is ok too :) Cheers, Mario
I agree after being audiofiel for over 50 years, the speakers rule....and what i can hear is the clipping compression with low efficient speakers ....and low power amps pushed hard
How wonderful and refreshing! In a sea of lies and greed, this beautiful bit of money saving information is there for the smart ones out there. This is the first video everybody building their systems should see. Does the audio industry have a lobby?
The trouble is that what sounds better is subjective. My friend loves boosted treble. Question is if there is a difference in sound. I think amps do sound different. Alpha audio demos on CZcams make that obvious. My singxer hp amp certainly sounds different than the topping a30 pros on sundaras. I’d take that Pepsi challenge any day. I doubt cables make much difference and of course speakers make the most difference. What is great about the alpha audio guys is that some are musicians and not just reviewers.
This Spanish group called MatrixHiFi.
It is real. Hi end its flake.
Amen brother !! Thanks for jumping in. Best, Mario
I had a Kenwood Monster receiver (the Super Eleven) with excellent specs , And new speakers i brought did not sound as good as at the HiFi shop so I blamed poor room acoustics . Then I got a Carver MXR 130 whose specs were not quite as good as the Kenwood , But the speakers came to life the bass response the clarity I heard minute details that I never knew were on the vinyl or CD . I later read that to get really low distortion figures many manufacturers used a lot of negative feedback and this causes time smearing that hides detail. So amplifiers/receivers with similar price and power levels can sound different.
Nice add to the conversation Lee, sorry I didn't reply sooner. Best, Mario
Yeah, sure many brands use negative feedback but thats not a problem and not audible. All competently designed amplifiers should sound exactly the same if you operate them within their specs, i.e don't push them into clipping. If two amps have low distortion, sufficient signal-to-noise level (say above 80-85db), good damping factor, flat frequency response, and enough power to drive your speakers they will sound identical. Most non-estoric amps have managed to do this since at least the mid 1980s. The caveat is that you must level match (to 0.1 db) them in order to a comparison. If you just hook up two different amps to you speakers and blast away the volume's going to differ. Most people will then percieve the louder one as sounding better. Speakers and acoustics is everything.
Blind tests are the ONLY way to find the truth. As a long term HiFi fan, I have grown tired of all the MEGA BS that abounds. I no longer buy the mags or attend the shows as everybody is so full of S H I T. UK
Thanks for jumping in with your thoughts Chris!!
@@mrmaschinaadventures Absolute pleasure Mario. I speak as I find. High end HiFi will die a natural death in the next few years ???? Chris UK
The only real gear change I found easily discernible was the addition of the Denafrips Ares II R2R Ladder DAC. It did tame the clinical sound of the newer chip DACs I owned. Even friends and family heard the difference and commented as such. No A/B testing involved, they did not even know I changed anything, they all said the same, "WOW, that sounds good, what did you do?". I then bought the Denafrips Hades and Thallo amps, and think I have a forever system to go along with my KLH Model 5 speakers.
I’ve recently swapped out my old DAC for the Denafrips Venus 2. The difference is huge, not that the old DAC didn’t do a perfectly respectable job.
@@howardskeivys4184 Im aiming for denafrips pontus 2 for now, currently having modi 3 dac. I wonder if the sound difference will be meaningful through pontus 2 on speakers around 2 grand price range against modi 3. Whether will it be worthwhile?
@@q2forever778 I’m no expert. Vut, by all accounts the Pontus is an excellent DAC at a highly competitive price. As regards your £2000 speakers, you will undoubtedly find that the better the equipment driving them, the greater the performance you will squeeze from them. At least you are working with ‘price appropriate’ components. Remember, it’s your gear, providing you with listening pleasure, so your opinion is paramount!
Enjoy the music.
My conclusion is put your money into speakers and the proper amp to drive them.
Hi Charles, absolutely, start with the speakers, from there all you really need is what you need is a legitimate quality sounding amplifer and a source.
I have my wife's 25 year old Sanyo comboDVD/CD machine. It sounds great if I didn't know any difference.
When I plug in my $500 CD player I notice it sounds "better" The soundstage is bigger, it doesn't sound as "compressed" That's what I notice. But guess what, that means the old one sounds "punchier" The bass doesn't go quite as deep and the highs are snappier, less silky.
Good grief, that old Sanyo still sounds terrific, just different. Best, Mario
and sound processors with equalisers - programm or HW
Gee Whiz does this mean everything sounds the same ? There s good cheap combos and bad expensive combos . Wow!
I had several audio research classic 60 , and they all sounded different, also the class a from electro companiet , never had 2 sounding identical....some transistor amps sound tube like , and some tube amps sound transistor....
I tried the same with headphones. Cheap $30 superlux hd330 without and with the beyerdynamic pads and original beyerdynamic dt-880 for $180 on the Onboard sound of my mainboard (alc1220) in comparison to my iPhone X and a cheap mp3 player. The biggest difference made the change of headphones in my opinion.
Thanks for clearing all of that hoax about speakers and DAC,s.
Greetings
Thanks for writing in on this, even headphones!!! These days great sounding gear is not expensive. Best, Mario
Julian Hirsch demonstrated this exact same thing back in the day with blind listening tests. The more things change... 😉
Julian Hirsch was tested and it took a greater than 10% THD for him to notice the distortion. He was never considered a respected reviewer in the actual audiophile market.
Glenn Curry - haha! Source? It wasn’t his hearing being examined. He came to his conclusions based on blind listening by test subjects. Of course there were/are those who didn’t respect him in the community - it’s a multi billion dollar industry and I’m sure he ticked some people off with his findings and opinions.
@@s.swanky1809 Google is your friend. Bob Carver did the testing. And how absurd for you to try to claim to know how the testing was done "It wasn’t his hearing being examined" when you admit to complete ignorance of it even happening? There are those of us that actually have existing factual knowledge.
@@glenncurry3041 Glenn, son, you are conflating 2 events and you still haven’t provided your source. Wouldn’t even matter if
Julian were deaf. I’m referring to blind listening tests, not Julian’s hearing.
@@s.swanky1809 so once more you want to claim to know about a factual history event and then ask for a link so you can first learn about it? I see no reason to carry on such an irrational approach to discussion. Hirsch and his reviews were paid Pablum jokes to us back in the day.
I bought my Dynaudio speakers few years ago. I hooked them up to an Arcam AVR to start. Since I did not know any better, I enjoyed what I had. However, when the AVR died, I bought a Bryston amp with Schit DAC and preamp. With that set up, what I heard was a revelation. Wall of nicely layered sound front to back. I still have the same speakers and amp, but other electronics have changed. When I changed front end electronics, I heard change in sound. I am in that camp of 'everything matters' in audio, however, that could be because of my psychoacoustic.
I do in fact agree with you. I will say it this way, The vast majority of quality gear? It all sounds 97% the same. But some gear / matching definitely causes a difference you can hear in your system. Via la difference :) Best, Mario
Bryston will clip far less then av amp
My experience is that amps do sound different. Note I said different, not better. Whether or not you prefer that difference is purely down to personal taste. Paying more for an amp, does not guarantee that you will like it’s difference. Cables can make a difference, but often not enough to warrant the additional expense.
All too frequently, audio manufacturers are trying to sell you solutions to problems that don’t exist.
Anyways, whatever audio equipment you buy, whatever you spend on it, enjoy the music!
They CAN sound different. But that is usually down to imperfections or deliberate design decisions by amp makers. My old Arcam amp was definitely "warmer" than my new class D amp. Why? Because either the Arcam was old or because they designed it with too much mid bass. I don't know which. A bit of both I think. But one could EQ that difference away.
But two properly designed amps with a flat frequency response, played below the level where they significantly distort or clip....there is no audible difference when tested blind.
Cable make jack shit difference, again...unless one set is so badly designed/made that it's introducing problems. And that can be at the top price end where they sell people cables thicker than spacesuit umbilical cords, thus adding a heap of inductance. But adequate cable vs super expensive adequate cable - no audible difference that can be detected in a blind test.
@@RaveyDavey in my extensive, nevertheless, humble experience, there is o such thing as perfection. There is no perfect girl or woman. No perfect car. No perfect pair of speakers and no perfect amplification. By that token, amps are going to sound different. I proved that when I recently upgraded from my premium integrated British class A/B amp to a higher end class A/B preamp monoblocks combo. Where ever I went to blind audition new amps I always took my integrated with me as a reference point. In those blind tests, I never failed to identify my integrated, though there were some close calls.
You say that your old class A/B amp was warmer than your new class D amps. Isn’t that supposed to be the generic traits of the different classes of amp. Having never owned a premium class D amp, I’m not qualified to validate that hypothesis.
In my experience of the audiophile fraternity, there is far too much elitism.
Enjoy the music. Ultimately that’s what it’s all about!
your honesty is impressive sir . that is my conclusion .
I have serious qualms about the conclusion reached by this elaborate experiment.
I have a couple of pertinent questions and recommendations.
Questions:
1. You have made a general conclusion on Home HiFi equipment but your experiment includes
proffessional Studio Monitors and a professional power amp. Based on the results of this
experiment should we ditch Home HiFi amps in favour of proffesional amps?
2. Studio monitors and power amps are, for their intended purpose, expected to have a flat
response. Home HiFi amps, on the other hand, always come tuned but with the Tone-Defeat/
Source Direct option. If your experiment was being fair to the Berhinger then the Classe
amp did not use the tune function. How many people in their home systems use the Tone Defeat
option as their default listening mode. I don't.
3. Is it not a well known fact in the audio industry that different companies offer differing
amounts of value(Quality/Cost). In fact value varies from model to model even within the same
company. This is true of ALL types of companents, be they speakers, DACs, amplifiers, etc.
To give an example, legendary amps such as the NAD 3020 have been lauded for sounding better
than rivals priced up to five times their price? Is this not what the Berhinger company is known
for, hence the A500's. Q Acoustics, Edifier, etc are companies that offers great value in the
Loudspeaker industry.
Recommendations:
1. I recommend that you compare only Home HiFi products, preferably manufactured by the same
company, within the same time period. Use products from a company with a wide range of products.
For example Yamaha. You can pick three pairs of Amps and CD players. CDPlayer/amp pairs in
the entry level, Mid - level and High end level. The speakers should also be from the same
company, Yamaha, and should be the company's flagship speakers.
2. Use the Amplifiers' tone modes because that'a what people do in their homes.
3. Do an A,B & C blind test using those component pairs and let's see what results you achieve.
Measurements would correctly show which amplifier in the blind listening test actually measured better.
A better measured amplifier will perform more accurately. But humans have different sound preferences ie some people prefer the sound of inaccurate tube amplifiers.
I had a cheap AB amplifier that was warm tube like sounding. It was very pleasant to the ears though measured below average on Audio Science Review.
I now have a more expensive very well measured class D amplifier made by two very knowledgeable European brothers who worked in the radio industry implementing audio equipment. Then designed studio quality speakers.
I appreciate the more natural and accurate sound I get now. But I can understand others prefer a artificial unrealistic sound. Everyone has different tastes, as long as you enjoy the music that's all that matters 🎶
Great video!
2022 cayin ru6 will give a slapping on what hifi sound really is. A 249$ dongle to your smartphone that'll embarrasse all these thousand dollar rigs. Hook it up to headphones or amp to experience what r2r sound is.
yea that thing is hot!! For Christmas I bought the Cayin A88T Reference tube amplifer, what a beautiful piece, they make superb quality gear.
Meanwhile, I must say i also love my new FX Audio M1 DAC, it really sounds superb
Cheers, Mario
Actually we kind of all knew all along with the results will be..
There is some DNA link that causes us to be OC and want to worhip the big rig, $$$ spent, reading Absolute Sound and feeling an ego rush...
*Best sound I ever heard driving to my dad's Corvette top down driving down the strip listening to the rolling Stones satisfaction on s***** FM radio...sounded Great
Hi Jay, thanks alot for jumping in. Indeed, sometimes we just want nice well crafted gear just for the sake of it. Well, if you can afford it that's ok, like better wood furniture. But in the end, the utility of it remains pretty close. Cheers, Mario
Btw i had audio shop in brussels for 5 years and had the same experience , the price is not garant for the soundquality.....
The audio business is the last stand of the snake oil salesmen, it has the same attitude towards science as the flat earth movement. I tried a similar test 25 years ago and I have since bought ‘cheap’ amps based on features and build quality. Most of them are second-hand. 😊
Good Stuff! Keep Going!
Audio too low or is it my cheap speakers?
Its a fake test. And I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it literally. The results can't be used for any real purpose.
I think its great that a blind test was attempted. Its just that if you are going to do one, you have to start by testing for something real, along with being able show the purpose of the test, and how you can utilize the results. None of that was done hear. Maybe for the next one, try to do a test using the scientific method as a guide. If done right, the results from a well done listening test can be scientifically valid. But it has to be done right.
I do understand your meaning, thanks for jumping in. Basically from what I understand, this is a group of audiophile friends that gets together once a year to sit and listen and compare equipment...who knows how much eat and drink they are enjoying along the way :) as they should, but in the end its interesting as hell that they admit they pretty much cant hear a significant difference between those two systems...
I don't mind admitting the glory of owning some expensive equipment is just because I want it, not because I think it sounds 10X "better" ....
Cheers, Mario
@@mrmaschinaadventures I may not have been clear in my post. As far as it just being a friendly group of friends meeting up, maybe that's true. But when its claimed that a blind audio test leaves audiophiles devastated, you can pretty much guarantee its a biased load of crap. Why? Because after decades of listening to the critics cry for blind testing, they have never actually done one. Or at least not done in a way to produce usable results.
Taking another look at this test, here's what you can take away from it. A group of people listened to some audio equipment and gave their opinion on what equipment they liked best. That's it. I don't see why that would be devastating to anyone, in any way.
In order for there to be an actual test that can be somehow recognized as useful, you need to answer a few basic questions. What exactly are you testing for? (It has to be something real.) Why are you testing for it? How can the test results be used?
Those are some pretty basic requirements, and I can't imagine why anyone would argue otherwise. With that in mind, I challenge anyone who thinks differently, to try and answer these 3 simple questions. Because, if you can't tell me what you're testing for, you have a hard time claiming that a test was done.
@@AT-wl9yq You seem to be missing the point of my video. You said "Taking another look at this test, here's what you can take away from it. A group of people listened to some audio equipment and gave their opinion on what equipment they liked best. That's it. I don't see why that would be devastating to anyone, in any way.
The fact is that to these many men who listened, they found that a dirt cheap well known power amp with $2 cables and a cheap DVD player sounded no different than a very expensive amp wired with very expensive cables to a very expensive CD player. They couldn't hear any difference. I trust it wasn't a group of idiots. I think that's interesting, in fact its quite telling and fascinating and that's why I made this video. Relax my friend, enjoy the music.
@@mrmaschinaadventures Its not that I missed the point of your post. You just don't like what I have to say. There's a big difference. Now you've changed your story. You started out saying a $12,000 system was compared to a $500 system. Its in the title of your post, no less. Now its a $2 cable to something expensive.
At this point, I know its going to be in one ear and out the other, but a lot of people read these post, so maybe someone will get something out of it. Also, I never make a statement I can't back up.
It doesn't matter witch version of the story we are going with, cables or components, it makes do difference. My original claim was a real test wasn't done. And its true for more than one reason. Testing how good 2 or more components are using a listening evaluation based on price is not valid. Price can't tell you anything about how a cable or component sounds. If something that cost $1000 goes on sale for $500, does that effect sound quality? I don't think it would. If I asked you to list the design specs and materials for a $1000 piece of audio equipment, you can't do it. If you compare 10 pieces of audio gear all costing exactly $1000, the design and parts list for each component will be different. You are going to hear the same type of differences between audio components that cost the same amount of money as ones that are priced differently.
Its also not a valid test to say one thing sounds better than another. That's subjective. Two people listen to the same system. One person says it sounds good, and the other says it sounds bad. What's the right answer? There can't be one. Blind tests are done to see if there's a difference between 2 products. That's it. Which you prefer is irrelevant. Is red a better color than blue? You may like red better than blue, but that doesn't mean its better.
So there you have it. Some people got together and did some blind listening. And that's great. But its not my fault the test was done so poorly that no useable information can be obtained from the results. What they did is good for personal use. "We tried 2 pairs of cables and couldn't hear a difference, so we left the cheap ones in the system." That's perfectly fine, and a wise choice. But those results are only valid for a specific set of circumstances. If you want the results to be universally valid, then you must implement a real test with real standards. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. Its not a personal attack. You should do blind test's like this. We all do. But the results are only valid to us, not everyone.
@@AT-wl9yq I did NOT change my story. They DID compare the sound of a $500 system to a $12,000 system and again, most of them couldn't hear a difference. That's the REASON I made the video. Have a nice day.
it's quite possible to put together a very expensive system that doesn't sound like an improvement over a poor quality system - what WOULD be a challenge is to put together a FAR BETTER sounding system that doesn't sound better
Sounds like a contradiction in terms. That would be a challenge indeed:)
The introductory text description and the video at 7:36 incorrectly states the results of the experiment according to the pie chart shown in the video. It was not an equal number selecting each system with 10 undecided, it was 14 selecting one system, 10 selecting the other and 14 undecided.
Don't ask a non audiophile which audiophile system sounds better. It's like asking me whether $3,000 wine taste better than a $30 one. Good chance I'll prefer the $30 wine
ooh thanks for finding that Harold. Best, Mario
I'll agree about cables. But that's it.
Hi I have been thinking for a while which speaker cable should buy best.
Pure copper or ordinary there are many types and many different stories.
I have just bought a Denon AVR-X2400H and have been in the box for week or two.
Because I don't know which cable to buy for a short distance.
Can you help me ?
Happy to offer two ideas. First, simple correct wire will be fine, ofc pure copper twisted 14gauge. 2nd, I found www.morrowaudio.com , I bought their Trade in sp3 speaker wires and ma2 rca connects, I noticed overall sweeter cleaner more open sound, but this is a relative subtle difference. The price is very reasonable if you do want to spend more on higher quality design cables. Best, Mario
The same principle applies to cables, there is no measurable difference. There is a "famous" blogger out there who does measurement comparisons between expensive and very cheap cables and there is no difference.
@@devranbruinen4263 Thanks
@@mrmaschinaadventures Thanks
Blind testing makes fools of us all.
Almost everything sounds better/different when you've just spend money and installed it....when you know what you're listening to. But set it up as a blind test and suddenly you can't tell. Expensive cables are money down the drain. Basic but well designed sources and amps are good enough. Speakers, speaker placement and rooms are where the differences become obvious and worthwhile. It's lunacy to spend like 10K on an amplifier when we know for a fact that 200-300 will get you one that has a flat response, low THD etc. But people have money to burn so it's up to them. I don't care but I do mind when they try to pretend it's making it sound better.
The fact that JBLs are so highly regarded is all the proof needed to prove than most people don't know how to evaluate sound. Also proven by McD's being the #1 restaurant.
I prefer the sound of my JBL L100t3’s to all other concepts I could afford.
Glenn!! No way man!! I have JBL 530s and they sound superb. I did a listen test comparison with a pair of Def Tech DT-9s and the sound quality was right in the same category. You can't just trash JBL in general, some of what they make doesn't work or isn't worth it but other lines are damn good. The 5 series is damn good. Cheers, Mario
Really interesting. I’m glad to see this before I splurged on expensive gear. At what price on average do DACs stop improving sound?
Seems there are several outstanding DAC's out there at around $100. If you just google best sounding budget DACs you'll surely find a few articles.... the Schiit comes to mind
@@mrmaschinaadventures hey, thank you for replying. I'm actually thinking about going with the Schiit Asgard and Modius, each 200. I know they have $100 iterations too.
@@patrickwwallace89 Hi Akadius, what DAC did you go with?? Happy?? Cheers, Mario
I mean these days you might not even need an external DAC and a decent dongle or phone will be enough. But in case you want to drive something with more power, you still probably don't need to spend more than 200 bucks. Maybe $300 if you want to cool knob.
@@michaelcorcoran8768 For that roughly $300 price point, I would recommend the Cayin RU6 dongle DAC. It comes in pretty close to the Ares II, which are both R2R Ladder DACs. That is one addition, I own both, that is audibly apparent, no blind testing required. I slipped an Ares II into my system, and everyone that heard the system asked what I did... I had the Schiit Gungnir in the rack, the Ares II was a game changer. All of these chip DACs sound the same to me, I can barely hear a difference, and ear fatigue sets in quickly. With the Ares II I can listen all day to a variety of music, again, game changer.
This test says less about the components than about the auditory capabilities of the persons who listened. Do you think a person that doesn’t drink alcohol could distinct a cheap wine from an expensive one? And as always: expensive doesn’t guarantee better quality.Furthermore the video leaves the assumption that you can put together five expensive high end gear and you would get an audiophile system. As if a cook would throw five expensive food ingredients in a bowl, stir it and then pretend it was a good dish. You have to know what and how to combine to get satisfying results ( I am talking about synergy).
Hi GS, Yea, I was also wondering about that alcohol part. When I catch a buzz everything sounds better :) Cheers, Mario
@@mrmaschinaadventures just enjoy the music and don't be devastated.
It was proven only this fact: 14 people has good hearing.
What they should have done was do multiple trials and see if people pick the same ones across the trials. That would either prove your statement or not.
People that schill for ridiculously expensive hardware in the audio community, are never able to pass blind AB test in public and usually won't even try.
Normal result: all the same. Ok
nothing new. People couldnt hear apart a 2 dollar soundchip ALC 889 vs a 2000 dollar DAC
How did you conclude that cables makes a difference from this study?
In my case regarding comparison of speaker cables alone, I find slight subtle differences. I have a pair of thin strand copper coated silver wire, 18 strands each, compared to the pair of 12gauge thick twisted ofc copper wire.... I notice the bass sounds a bit more thick and full with the 12 gauge wire, but that was the only thing I could really notice, I wouldn't say it was better or worse.The Morrow Audio sp3 cables I had seemed very nice and clean, but again, compared to the others, a difference I could notice yes for sure, but these are subtle changes.... Best, Mario
This shouldn't be devastating, and it is to some.... because these conclusions have been yelled about and heralded for decades, but unfortunately the people that yell louder have money, marketing budgets, ad space and an industry designed to suggest the opposite in order to fund marketing budgets, ad space and an industry designed to suggest the opposite in order to...
and the test was it real?
are ther some other test updated?
Hi George, sorry I responded here a bit late... I included the original link in the description and just checked it. Seems that website hasn't been active anymore and no indication if they started another one. Cheers, Mario
Just found your channel very enjoyable! Now I got to binge-watch for a couple hours. very interesting article. it's what I expected or suspected all along. Just got a pair of jbl590 so that's how I found your Channel I love them by the way so far especially for $475 a piece. I mean the deal of the century black or no black😎🤗
Hi Big Jay and thanks for writing! Wowow crazy 590s for that price, I'm sure you're happy as can be. Enjoy them and I still have small sexy chereywood 530s for your other room :) Haha. Cheers and thanks again, Mario
Big Jay! How are you enjoying those 590s?! Best, Mario
Big Jay! Its been awhile I wasn't responding much here, the year was crazy for many across the world and I have been soooo busy with other stuff. How are you enjoying those 590s??? I am still loving my 530s :) Best, Mario
@@mrmaschinaadventures
With two 590's flanking 2 550p subs and add a 520 center along with the two 530's elevated on stands in the corners my system sounds fantastic. 🤯😳 Especially using my Denon 5 channel receiver made in Japan! 140 6ohm real Watts × 7. And I'm very aware there is considerably much better out there! Whatever that means, but that better sure looks sharp. I just think once you get to a certain level, a sound is a Sound!🤔🤔🤔🤫😬 I listen to my system using 5 channel stereo yesterday. I can't imagine what a much more expensive system could sound like especially in 5 channel mode. My room is highly treated which has made all the difference. The Oled TV is in the middle because Movie Watching Trumps plain Music listening 9 out of 10 Times!🤫😉😇 Hope those tables are as nice as they seemed!🤔😬🤪🤗😇
@@bigjay1970 Oh geez man I can't believe you've got the two subs with your 590s.
I am currently using a ten year old top line Denon AVR4308, similar to yours I believe, 140w x 7, drives 170w x 2, This is not some budget AV receiver, original retail was over $2000 and it weighs a ton. So come on, we both know that the amp quality is going to be at the top level. I am always amazed how much solid deep clean bass comes out of my 530s. I'm not a bass hound so its all good :)
Yeah, I like good quality audio but there is no bigger group of suckers than this community. I mean outside of maybe people that work for a mid-level marketing cult.
I've loved music and great sounding equipment for 35 years. I've owned plenty of stuff but never been able to afford high end so I've never gone there.
In recent years finance has improved and I've gone up a notch to mid level gear and I'm loving it (my complete system retails for about $20k but I didn't pay that much). I know theres "better" out there but I'm not interested, what I have is as good as I'll ever own.
I just want to say that my system brings me a lot of happiness every time I have a session. money well spent.
Thanks for jumping in Tones Bones, much appreciated. Indeed, it seems to take a huge chunk of money to get that last 5-10% improvement in sound which really makes such a little difference. Fun if you can afford it :) but even more fun is putting together a system for far less money that sounds superb. Cheers, Mario