Fundamentals of LPVOs: Cheap vs Expensive
Vložit
- čas přidán 6. 04. 2024
- All the best firearms history channels streaming to all major devices:
weaponsandwar.tv
At SHOT Show this year I took some time to speak with Mike Branson of Gideon Optics (formerly of Primary Arms and Swampfox). Mike's a friend and a true optics nerd, and I figured he could help give folks an understanding of some of the fundamentals of modern firearms optics. Today, we are talking about Low-Power Variable Optics - LPVOs. In particular, what are the differences between cheap and expensive ones? What can you improve by spending more money, and what is basically limited by physics?
utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
I appreciate Mike's blunt honesty.
Exactly. Completely transparent in every product video and honest about the differences. It's really nice to hear.
This is a video that all of us need to watch.
It's the kind that comes with experience and humbleness... Great to see.
I don’t know who this man is, but that’s how you get business. Extremely informative, honest, and practical.
No doubt. I wanna buy his stuff just based on that.
His open honesty on how “the sausage is made” is some of the best marketing I’ve seen in a long time.
It’s the best way. Integrity.
well, people are usually more willing to pay for cheaper stuff if they understand why it is cheaper (or expensive for that matter)
Yeah, I really like this guy... I would buy some of his glass just because he is being honest.
@@tomwinterfishing9065truth.... makes me respect him as a person, and a company. It's like the old school toyota approach from the 80s.
I seriously would have never given his brand much consideration them being relative newcomers. This video, and his integrity and honesty, I def will be checking his line out.
@@jong2359 I'm definitely going to pick up one of his red dots.
Talking about his glasses hit too close to home 😂
No kidding.... I took mine off and looked at my lenses when he said that.... ouch...
Yup. I truly wish I could find glass glasses...
@@tngtacticalmiata1219 And you have to find the spot on the glasses lens that has the focus point you need for the scope, in addition to the scratches and smuges.
Me and my progressive cut lenses 😬
You can get them BUT they are to heavy for me the last time I had glass lenses they were expensive and uncomfortable to wear I hated them they will give you the look of a nerd think professor Farnsworth that was me before I had cataract surgery LOL
Dude has earned my business with honesty about a product.
I appreciate his honesty regarding red dots (in another/a different video) where he mentioned Holosun was a year/generation in front of the competition due to them being a division of an optics company
I'll not discount Gideon if I ever buy a red dot but will compare them with Holosun's offerings more closely..
he's full of it.
Math is now racist.
Gross
Mike is an extremely effective communicator. The blunt honestly of what he knows and what is products can do is very refreshing.
And his honesty about what it *can’t* do and why.
I like that he got into the weeds of application vs cost without getting into the deeper weeds, even counting the insert of the basic math of the physics of magnification. That was relatively painless for those of us who don’t math.
That’s the kind of thing that makes us think about “do I really need to spend that extra grand *to do what I want or need to do” which a lot of people don’t really consider.
Yep. I work in sales selling the most frivolous, needless product to people with too much money. This guy nails it. To honest, authentic, transparent and being able to admit your products faults (and strengths) is so basic yet seldom seen.
Related reason to go with an LPVO: hunting in bear country. I spent much of my life on Kodiak (1 brown bear per square mile) and was an avid blacktail deer hunter. When hunting we saw bears nearly every day, and just learned to avoid them. I used a typical 3x9 scope until the day everything went wrong. Browns and grizzlies are ambush predators. When they decide to attack (which is rare), they sneak in very close and rush you from downwind (they don't know we can't smell them) at 25 mph. That happened to me one day and when I swung my rifle the bear was within 10 or 15 yards and I was blind. I had less than one second to sort that out and failed. I didn't even pull the trigger before it bowled me over and really messed me up. My partner ran up and also blinded by a high power variable point-shot a .300 Mag round into the animal's torso, it then turned and ran at him and he got another blind shot into it from the front, which finally turned the animal. I was a mess, lucky to survive and nearly bled out before a CG helo airlifted me to town. It was two years before I was healed up enough to hunt again, and when I finally got back out in the bush I was sporting a simple Burris 1x4 optic. I kept my rifle on 1X while hunting, and if I needed magnification dialed it up, took the shot and went back to 1X. I'm convinced that if I'd had a 1X optic I'd have gotten off that one critical shot that might have turned the bear, or even tumbled him before he reached me. That was 25 years ago and 1X4 (and maybe 1X6?) was all that was available. It's nice to see the advances in LPVO scopes. If you hunt in brown or grizzly country, this is the style of scope you want.
Kind of why I carry bear spray on my right hip. I've stopped charging brown bears with just a puff.
What a story. I am glad you are still here to tell it.
Greetings from a hunter in europe that has only roe deer in his area.
@@donwyoming193644 magnum revolver with heavy cast bullets at the ready if I’m in that heavy of bear country
@@Joe-hz1nw stats show bear spray is hugely more effective but sure, carry what you like
@@jameshealy4594Why not both?
This is how you sell a product. No razzle-dazzle, no chest-thumping; just brutal honesty and infectious enthusiasm.
Gun Jesus has had a lot of fantastic, informative guests, but none better, more knowledgeable, or transparently honest than this gentleman. Gideon sounds like a sweet price point for basic practical shooting and hunting. Gonna look into one of their sights for my son's AR.
Webster should put a picture of Mike up in the definition of 'NO BS'. So refreshing to see this obviously very knowledgeable industry guy dispelling myths with pure truth.
The firearms community needs more blunt honesty like this
It's always refreshing to have a guest speaker approaching forgotten weapons with the correct attitude: a frank discussion of the technical capabilities and limitations of the gadget that happens to be on the table. Too often the SHOT show people have a pitch that they've rehearsed. Nothing wrong with a rehearsed pitch, of course (rehearsing is good!) but it doesn't sound like this guy is pitching me anything, and that's the best pitch you'll ever hear in your life.
Ian, you should invite Mike for a proper gather ‘round the camp fire.
I love this guys honesty. "Its not just as good, but its probably good enough for you"
Do you know what's hilarious about this? His honesty will win everyone! Poors like me will look into his companies stuff. Snobs will feel vindicated buying high end.
He's selling everyone!!! Lmao😂
This is true for many peole. If they don't know what they pay for and how to check a glass about it's quality. It does not make a difference if it is a microscope, a camera objectiv a rifle scope or whatever. If the lense quality is not good your eye will get fatigue much more early than with a very high quality glass.
For example, the lens of the much loved Razor gen 3 is not ground round. Check it against a wall or object with a lot of lines or against text and start to move it. You wil recognize the lense is full of "flat spotes".
Does this mean we have to buy a 2500+$ scope? Definitly not, but there are huge differences that will/can have a big impact on your ability to shoot over a long and sometimes also over a shorter time at the range.
Check your budget, check the scopes in your budget class, check one class below and one above to see if you are happy with what you want/can invest. Better than figure out a bit later that it just would have needed a little bit more money to be way more happy.
Better safe on the rifle than on the scope. The rifle is way less important than the scope. And everything is less important than know how to build a shooting position and pull the trigger.
If you want to learn this, buy a 22lr and learn to shoot 22 prone rifle.
If you are able to shoot consistent 96+, you know the fundamentals about shooting a rifle.
The best thing about it, it's super cheap!
I was really sketch on Gideon until this video. I'm gonna buy an optic from them now just because of this guy.
I like this guy, if he made a youtube channel explaining optics concepts or doing reviews or whatever I would definitely be watching.
Yeah, but that would take some of his time away from designing and honestly I’d rather he do that, and not just because that’s what he really loves doing.
I am in technical sales engineering and truly appreciate the honesty and the ability to call out his competitors not for his gain but to defend their higher prices. Quality counts until it isn't of benefit by finding that balance between affordability, your ability to use the extra quality and getting the features that are fit for the mission.
Translation = it's a decent scope at a nice price point. It will perform 90% as well as the top tier optics but cost a fraction of the cost
You didn’t hear a word he said lol.
It's more like, does the exact same job as high end LPVOs 98% of the time. There are reasons to buy a $3k optic, but is that relevant to you.
@@pkt1213 I got a Razor 1-6(e) on sale for $999 brand new. In guessing past that quality you're getting greatly diminishing returns.
That's not true at all. My Kahles blows all my sub 1k lpvos out of the water at all points. It's not even close.
24:57 - I think Mike has shown he has earned the royal crown as "The King of Poors" at this point.
He really, really makes his point and defends it clearly. That there is indeed such a thing as "Poor Pride".
He has a crown, and wears it well. This entire interview series has been extremely humbling.
there needs to be a middle ground, stuff that costs a few xtra buck, a few hundred, not a few thousand, that is better than the chinese amazon / wish junk, that is reliable enough for the average person, but affordable. thats what he is targeting, also psa and primary arms too.
@@mtnbound2764 that's mid tier. It's the sweet spot for civilians imo. Big mid tier names are like bcm, Midwest industries, primary arms glx line, the nicer holosun stuff. Nothing unnecessarily fancy, but all trustworthy and quality.
@@Woodnymph304 aero and ballistic advantage too
But the cheerful enthusiasm!
I saw this comment and internalized it, and thought about it, and well... alright then. King of the Poors is still king of somethin'. Makes me think of the Laurence Fishburne character from the John Wick movies. I proudly put on my kingly robe of tee shirts and blue jeans and announce "somebody PLEAAAASSE, get this man a scope!" --Mike
accurizing your firearm is a rabbit hole. diminishing returns apply like anything else. and it's all kind of moot if your gun can outshoot you.
at some price point, food stops tasting better and they're just slapping gold leaf and caviar on everything because some people want whatever has the highest price tag just to flex.
Meh, if a shooter can shoot a laser beam (0/MOA rifle) at 4 MOA, their groups wirh a 4MOA rifle will be something like 8 MOA (slightly less, but then you have to actually measure and do the math on the random distributions). They're still better served by the 0 MOA rifle. It isn't until the shooter is several times less accurate than the rifle that the returns really drop off.
@@roflchopter11 you're exactly the guy the comment described.
Well sort of. If you have a 2 moa rifle, with a person willing to put in the work to learn to shoot it at 2 moa..... You're getting a better result for less money, generally speaking.
I think the biggest "bang for your buck" is learning to shoot the rifle you have. Everything else is just "icing" on the cake.
@@jagerdergroe8604 I shoot 3gun with a M&P sport 1, so not really.
@@roflchopter113 gun is hardly a precision game...
Mike's comments at the end of the interview re: 2A, availability, and snobbery were bang on!
Best part of the vid in my opinion. Thank you Ian and Mike. 👍🏻
Quality is king. Everyone hates the quality department because their job is to tell you when you're doing something wrong but they get to decide how consistent a product is and that translates to happy customers.
He answered a lot of questions that I have thought about over the years. He has insider knowledge of how optics really work and is honestly sharing it.
Ian this is one of your best videos.
I love these interviews. Mike is an enthusiastic engineer that can explain optics at a level the layman can understand without apparent bias.
This conversation is what everyone really needs. Truthfully honest!
The end was soo funny. I went into service in the mid 80’s. My “Door kicker” gun is way better that most guns I had access to when I was in.
He's great at discussing all these optical stuffs, really knows the products and very upfront about what is what. Two thumbs up!
You had me at "in the realm of diminishing returns". All kidding aside, this level of honesty from a very knowledgeable person is refreshing.
I love your interviews with this guy. I've met so many "experts" (in a completely different field) that you try to talk on a topic with and it just turns into a sales pitch of "our thing is soooo much better because xyz" "buy our thing instead because it does ABC and the competition does DEF". This guy is just straight up talking on the topic and only every now and then talks about his goods when relevant!
I really respect his honesty
If I hadn't just bought an LPVO I would consider getting one now from this man due to his straight talk.
It's so refreshing to see a manufacturer tell you the good the bad and the ugly about their products and compare them to other products without bad mounting the competition! I've learned a lot about optics that I thought I knew just by these few videos that Gun Jesus has had him on! That being said more please!
Hey Mike, you dropped this: 👑
This gentlemen has been very interesting to listen to over the last few video's. I hope we see and hear more from him in the future. Cheers.
I love the mention that training is more important than Gucci equipment. I would push back ever-so-slightly for brand new shooters, though. They need to make sure that cheap gun /mount/optic isn't total trash, broken, or shot out. Otherwise they could get frustrated and quit training or stop shooting altogether. 22LR is great for training and there are lots of affordable but great pistols and rifles that will do a great job of building skills and confidence without breaking the bank.
Some of the best and informative content about LVPO's I have watched.
“Buy once cry once” has a place but, the “stop beign Poor” statement is always out of line.
Honest Dude I wish him all the luck
More from Mike please. Maybe get a bottle o' moonshine for a Q/A about firearms in general. Appeciate his insights, they apply to more than firearms!
I agree 100 per cent with this guy. I discovered IJK optics that sells 1 st focal plane and other scopes for a fraction of what Leupold, Nightforce etc. cost. They have performed excellent for target and hunting. The illuminated reticals work great for night varmint hunting. Don't waste your money unless you' re filthy rich.
This gentleman is great. His frankness is refreshing.
Great video - thanks to Mike for a refreshingly honest discussion.
I know its been said, but this is the most refreshing guy I've ever seen. I work in a corporate-esq environment, and I have tried to get them to understand the respect sheer honesty instills. They're more concerned with looking perfect...
Love his honesty.
Especially about sending US jobs overseas.
Well, when the US government is raising taxes on small businesses, I don’t blame him either. You Have to cut cost somewhere or you will be going out of business
One of the ways to cut costs, is to cut labor costs, as unethical as it sounds. Is it ideal? No, but for what he’s aiming for, it’s the best way to go about it
The CNC machine isn't responsible for quality control - it may make the same part with the same program no matter where you plug it into the world. BUT the person running the CNC machine still matters. As does the person checking the assembly work, and the parts coming in from suppliers, etc...
Actually, CNC plays a factor in quality because of the lens don’t sit right then you’re not going to get a clear and true view. So yes, CNC let’s play a factor in quality. May not be a huge one like glass, but they play a factor.
Many no namebrand optics suffer from this issue where the lens don’t sit properly and you’re not getting a true view of your target Or the lens doesn’t fit properly on it seems tight but falls off when you drop it
@@vicdiaz5180 thats a side argument of proper cnc setup (which i did cover in my post,) and keeping your bits true and sharp. Your clamping hardware in spec, etc...)
Agreed
You can still train an operator anywhere in the world.
These are my absolute favorite videos on Forgotten Weapons. Mike Branson is awesome, and Ian asks all the right questions.
See, this is why I paid several thousand on eye surgery so now I can't afford an ATACR but I can see all the flaws in my Venom 5-25.
I hope you have more content to come with Mike! These are great!
I would definitely like to see more interview content with Mike, he is such an interesting, knowledgeable, and agreeable fellow to listen to. Appreciate you taking the time to get his take on a few topics during your busy Shot Show run through. 👍
Literally just bought a Sig Tango 1-6, 300 bucks, going to the range today to zero it in.
People can say what they want, I have one of those and a Vudu 1-10. That Sig is an EXCELLENT LPVO.
I bought one a few weeks ago to dip my toes into the LPVO world. Definitely a heavy optic, and the glass isn't anything to write home about, but the 1x is pretty solid. Definitely gonna buy a replacement, but it'd staying on the backup rifle.
I don’t really care for the sig 1-6. It’s not as clear as a pst gen 1 even. I’m just waiting to get another credo and I’ll replace it. It serves its purpose on my 300 blackout till I’m ready to swap
Good choice with 1-6x. I've always told people to only go 1-4x or 1-6x on a LPVO. The eye box is just too small to be practical.
Always a pleasure to listen to someone truly knowledgeable and passionate about a field i know so little about, this guy's great!
I greatly appreciate the practicality of these conversations. It's really good information that the community needs to hear rather than relying on affordability bias or bravado. Thank you.
Mike is awesome. These interviews have been surprisingly enlightening and thought-provoking.
What a pleasant honest and knowledgeable fellow. Thanks for sharing your interview with him.
Another issue with polymer vs glass lenses is that polymers have a thermal expansion coefficient which is about two orders of magnitude higher than that of glasses and ceramics.
That's the major issue.
They make firearm optics with plastic lenses?
@@BarackLesnarWell I know they make some reflex style red dots with polymer lenses. The Shield RMSc pistol red dot is one of those.
This is one of the best product interview videos I've seen. I love the in-depth discussion. I bet if Ian did more product development videos whoever he's talking to would really step up their game compared to what you usually see
Once again, a super interesting guest and topic. Thanks!
Great interview! I really enjoy listening to Mike Branson talk about his knowledge and experience with optics. Thanks Ian and Mike!
Love the honesty. Great information.
Great interviews with Mike. Love his pragmatic outlook. Very refreshing.
This guy seriously needs a forgotten optics section on this channel.
In addition to what everyone else said about mike, I really appreciate when people give credit where credit is due. mike mentioning Primary arms really makes me like mike. Kudos to you.
GREAT interview!! Would love to hear more from you two!
Love his honesty. Will be checking out Gideon in the future.
Mike and Ian are some of the best spokesmen for the Second Amendment I have seen in years. True believers. I hope to see more of Mike.
What a great interview!
Love the honesty and logic
Ian-this has been an awesome series. Really appreciate it. Very informative and also done in an entertaining way. Would love to see you two continue the conversation about use case for red dot, prism, and lpvo.
This guy is so refreshing to listen to, and clearly has a huge amount of passion for his field.
Oh, this guy again, I love his explanations!
Honestly is always refreshing from a vendor. Great work! I wish the very best of health and happiness to you all and your families!
Ive been loving these videos, guy is super informative and open
I know sweet f.a. about scopes, the technology and terminology, and a lot of this went over my head; BUT it's fascinating because of how Mike explains it all. Even if I don't understand what something is, he explains how and why it is or isn't important, so I can still understand the shape of what he's talking about - even if he loses me in some details. Props to him - he'd make a great educator!
Big Kudos to Mr. Branson - he did an amazing job in communicating why and/or why not buy expensives scopes.... Me personally I trust in Arken glases in all occasions.
In Europe they are the absolute best value for money glases. I use them vom my .22 AR15 (an LPVO) up to my .338 LM with which I shoot long range (EP-5 5-25). I now bought the ZULUS just to see if I can mount it on several different non tournament rifles, simply load the one of the 24 programmable settings and be very close the before zero'd setup.... If yes, this will give a loooooooooooot of space in weapon safes 😀
Always glad to have more sfp scopes to choose from.
Excellent job the both of you. What a refreshing honest and educational opportunity.
So informative!! I'm pretty sure I'll never need an LPVO or an optic or even a gun, but the wealth of knowledge and passion of Mike Branson is really captivating. He most definitely is one of the best guests of this channel.
I use a Vortex 3-9 for hunting and a 1-6 for general use. Both so far have been rugged excellent scopes. I'm not looking to be a scout sniper shooting people at 800 yards. I just need something that I can reasonably run in my house, in my local area, and expect it to work. And if it craps out on me I have backup irons.
Mike seems super knowledgeable and humble, great video
Super cool interview!
Quite possibly the best, most transparent take on LPVOs I’ve seen.
Well done Gentlemen!
I love this guy. He explains things really well.
This video gave me wonderful information and, more importantly, PERSPECTIVE! Thank you to everyone involved in making this video and bringing it to the world. This video and its info could have saved me some money and consternation over the years...lol. Keep up the good work! Special "Thank You" to Mike and Gideon.
What a fantastic interview!
I love this guys honesty, im going to have to check his optics out now!
Very cool, thanks for those explanations. Super helpful.
Please make more videos with this guy!
This is one the most honest conversations I've heard in the firearm community in a long time, thank you guys for this video!
Keep it up Mike, you give a very refreshing honest perspective on modern optics and firearms. 4MOA was good years ago. Now a cheap homebuilt AR can give 1MOA accuracy and of course optics quality is light years ahead and is racing forward every year still.
Great job on the interview!
Great interview and some very coherent answers to difficult questions.
It’s my boy Mike again! Love this guys info and honesty
I worked with Mike for a very brief time. What a true gentleman! Thanks for the great video Ian.
Awesome video. Really helps me understand and be a better customer. Thanks Mike and thank Ian.
This guy is amazing. Love his interviews
More Mike!!! Man, what a guy. I had never heard of Gideon before and had something else in mind for my rifle, but I'm going to give them a VERY strong look moving forward.
Next build I'm doing get Gideon glass. Such grounded integrity is so rare
I LOVE this man. his honesty is so refreshing
Next we need to see the mating and performance of the Gideon LVPO and a WWSD carbine. 😁
Outstanding interview Ian. That gentleman is a gem.
This guys honesty is undeniable and to be honest, refreshing!
Way cool and thank you both.
👍 to Mike from Gideon. What a refreshing listen. Thank you
Really GREAT presentation !