Longsword sparring with Martin Fabian - HEMATHLON 2022 - 4K
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- čas přidán 23. 06. 2022
- In my recent trip to Athens, Greece I had the opportunity to meet Martin Fabian.
He won the Longsword Gold in the tournament and gave an interesting workshop the next day. I didn't manage to meet him in the competition but asked him for some sparring and he obliged. We didn't put up any specific rules or concept behind our play, just fenced for a few minutes and I am very glad to have managed to work with and learn from such a great fencer.
The video is without any analysis but I did played the exchanges that end in a hit 3 times each - once normally, once at 50% speed and once normal speed but with freeze frame on the touches.
If for some reason you've been living under a rock and don't know who Martin Fabian is you can check his CZcams channel - / martinfabian
/ martinfabianhema
Angel Chernaev is a historical fencing instructor from Sofia, Bulgaria.
/ angel.chernaev
/ angel.swordsmanship
www.angel-swordsmanship.com/a...
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Any feedback is appreciated. - Sport
1:42 Every fencer knows that feeling :)
I know, right. It was like the 3rd time he got me with something similar and I was getting frustrated with myself.
True 😆
Excellent video, love the the slow play and the stop on impact.
Thank you. Glad you liked it
Great exchanges. A pleasure to watch
Thank you
Thank you for posting this and giving us the slow mo during the hits!
I am glad you liked it
Love this sparring matches, especially the 1st 30 seconds of the video!
Thank you. Yes, the first 30 seconds were pretty nice for me too
I've found your channel after 2022 swordplay I've really been enjoying it
Thank you, I am glad you like it.
Martin's feder hits around corners. That's some crazy flexible steel
There are some moments when it could happen with more flexible blades.
This is both a sport, and an art!
Yes, I usually present it as a martial art that we train as a combat sport
fabian is probably the best, his footwork is legendary.. as everything else. you kept a high rythm for a good 6 minutes with such a killer. and surprised him a couple of times 💪 good videos thanks!
Thank you. Yes, he has very efficient footwork.
Thank you for this sporty and very nice cut video!
I just got recommended this video and read the comment: "his footwork is legendary".
Out of the context, I took a look and watched out for his footwork two times, then I valued it to chapter 7 of Meyers "Ein ermanung[!!!, my highlighting] von den Tritten." Most of the Hits are like suicide attemps since there is no Zufechten at all and most hits end with falling into a (maybe) dead enemy. This is no art for me. I feel so very sorry for just posting it, but, "legendary" means for me NO mistakes, ABSOLUTE security, NOT getting hit, PLAYING nicely WITH the opponent (since he is legendary). Where is the knightly art inside this? Where is "männlich, zierlich, künstlich"? (manly, petite, artistic)
PLEASE correct me, in my humblest opinion. This is just a commentary of a regular sportsman, I'm nothing, you decide to put on a specific sportsgear to "attempt the real deal" but instead, you - and I dare to say this with all my due respect to you both to try to speak the truth from sportsman to sportsmen - disrespect the old masters by doing everything against their lecture and deeper understanding of the Kunst. Not only the fundamental techniques but also the principles are missing completely.
I consider Zufechten as dooropener for fencing WITH my opponent if I'm Vor, and reacting technically more advanced to lure and "feel" him when I'm in Nach. There were a few nice Ortschießen, with "some" to "no" security. Is this a valuable point when He hits then in classic HEMA tournaments and get a counterhit? What would be the ruleset out of this sparring?
In comparison to my little understanding of all the kunst (I just cling to Meyer and some others) and huge respect for the old masters I considered following situiations (mostly "the legendary footwork") as follows:
0:22 huge extension: no Fühlen (visual exploration is also Fühlen!) (slightly disregardable)
0:31 insecure footwork (Bufflerfechten)
0:41 nice Langort
0:50 nice footwork (verstohlener Schritt, but why?)
0:58 insecure Fußarbeit
1:14 easy Fußarbeit Nachreisen but easy hit
1:43 nice and clear Ortschießen (but as Treffer?)
2:04 wrong Fußarbeit -> counterstrike
2:34 insecure footwork and stance
2:49 nice and clean - this is kunst
3:05 insecure footwork (shown in stance) = Bufflerfechten + no Abzug -> Counterstrike
3:28 same as above
3:45 lazy Fußarbeit, insecure stance, no stability -> getting hit
4:00 lazy Fußarbeit, disregarding+no fühlen, double hit, no kunst, both dead.
4:22 ...
4:40 Buffler: no Fußarbeit, no Fühlen
4:53 wrong Fußarbeit, nice Fehlhau from Angel, Abzug-Attempt, stopped but why? Moderate kunst.
5:05 Bufflerfechten: Both getting hit, no kunst, no fühlen.
5:22 clear and nice Zornhau/Flächstreich (mit auswendiger Fläche)
5:42 Buffler
5:47 wrong Fußarbeit -> Counterstrike, no Abzug, thats why.
6:00 wrong Fußarbeit
6:04 Buffler (Double hit?)
Despite how arrogant this may sound, I never did HEMA this way officially on a tournament or sparring like this, but maybe I might simply don't get it, maybe I'm just a fool, but then, please enlighten me. It would be an honor if you take your time and explain it to me :)
I empty my glass.
Kindest regards and respect for your passion and deeds
@@sdr31818 hi bruvvv I think you can only understand if you reached a certain level. I would say and have 4-7 of experience and teaching HEMA helps a lot to see what is happening.
It’s also important to know different historical martial ARTS systems. Martin has less Meyer but much more Liechtenauer. Meyering is, artistic and “round” and has the goal to hit your opponent as flowery as possible on the highest point of his head. For Meyer fencing please watch Björn Rüther.
Martin is efficient and explosive that’s definitely not Meyer and not Artistic but god damn high-end athletic.
@@sdr31818 I wonder, why are people who write such nonsense always the ones who can't fence for shit?
@@sdr31818 And to be more specific - your footwork is so incredibly awful for someone who has supposedly trained HEMA for over a decade, that any of your critique just comes out as ridiculous. You can't walk the talk.
you did awesome .I kept watching your videos,it"s good to see you fence with Fabian who influenced me by his video to learn hema.
Thank you. Yes, Martin’s videos are great.
ngl, I'm pretty jealous you got to fence Martin lol. From watching this though I think (if you're open to some constructive criticism) that some focus on distance management would work well. A lot of the thrusts Martin landed seemed to happen because you were in measure with no threat, advancing in a straight line. Staying out of measure and then advancing by shearing to the left or right I think would help a lot. Hope that helps! Need to get some of my own fencing on youtube lol great fights!
Thank you for your comment. Yes, distance management is critical and something I constantly work on and try to improve.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing definitely I love your videos! I hope to fence Martin someday as well but you landed some nice strikes too! I know Martin is very explosive so maintaining that distance has got to be a real challenge and you did very well :)
@@ultimomos5918 thank you :)
the difference between the standard and shorty length as well as armspan length def gave Martin the edge just outside of thrusting range too
Yes, he definitely has reach advantage. But more importantly he knows how to utilise it and I am not that used to it.
Duuuudeee Martin is owner of an Infinity Stone! He has achieved a complete new level of perception. like his mind is 2mins in the future.
And good job Angel 🎉
Hahah, so it seems some times.
Thank you :)
Wow! That was an excellent sparring!
Thank you
Ive always wondered how Martin gets so much explosive power on his zwerchhaus from a bind, he just pulls the momentum out of nowhere.
You can condition to have explosive power in the muscles
I know right. A lot of experience on that part
Good video construction.
-
Excellent sparring.
It looks like the real thing!!!
Thank you
Great fencing but... lots of flats, like... really lots of flats :D
Show edge some love! :)
Thank you for your comment. There is one clear flat hit at 0:54-1:08 but Martin does it for safety reason when it's on top of the head. Turning the edge in it wouldn't have really changed anything other than the force I would have received.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing It is still great fencing from both sides! And yes, it doesn't really change that much in a way people fight, I agree
Yet it triggers me strangely to see such a different approach to HEMA :P Im my count about 80-90% of all exchanges were done with flat and with the intention of hitting with flat (aka there was no attempt of hitting with the edge). Not counting thrusts of course ;)
Anyways, its just an observation really,
Thank you for your compliment and comment. While I do not agree with you that there are that many intentional flat hits, there surely is room for improvement. I do strive to have good edge alignment and it’s something I continuously work on.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing
Wouldn't training with hitting flats create bad habit? Also those hema head gear should easy be able to handle a hit from those Swords even on edge.
@@AngelsArmour It might if you do it too much. While the head gear can certainly handle the strikes edge on, the top of the head is relatively weak and a full on strike there can cause issues. So one needs to moderate either force and speed or change to flat.
beautiful techniques.
Thanks
Good job!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hey great fencing on both sides! What type of sword are you using for these bouts? Can't tell if it's a sigi king or not but if so how are you liking it?
Thank you. I am with Sigi King Shorty. I like it a lot and it's my go-to longsword now. It's as close to "perfect" as length, mass and behaviour as I can imagine for me. The only real downside is that a lot of fencers are using longer swords so I can sometimes be at a near 10 cm length disadvantage. I did tried the Sigi King standard, but it seems a bit overly floppy for my taste.
Hello Angel, great camera quality and editing, it is useful to have the replay with slowmo and pauses. I noticed you are using an AP light NG jacket. I previuously used a superior fencing AP clone, and was thinking about getting something lighter and more mobile, but still safe enough for friendly longsword sparring, such as in the video. Do you like it? Are you wearing additional protection underneath? Any particular flaws or weak points?
Thank you :)
I have been using AP light 350N for few years and now decided to give the NG line a try. The NG light fits somewhere in between the 350N standard and light as mass and protection goes. For club sparring I don’t think they need anything additional on the torso other than their own foam inserts. If you are in a thrust heavy environment, doing such exercises or using stiffer swords - a plastron underneath is generally a good idea. Same for tournaments though I have been without it a lot. You 100% need forearm protection(from the glove or separate) even for friendly one handed sword usage as the protection there is not suitable.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing Good to know, i have heard contrasting opinions so far. The light NG sounds like a good compromise; besides, forearms are needed with standard APs too. If those nasty thrusts from Fabian in the first few exchanges of the video did not hurt i am definitely convinced. Thanks for the reply!
@@gianlorenzom Do have in mind that he is playing with very flexible sword - Sigi Concept. However if you are facing Regenyei Strong(for example) and a lot of people jumping in with thrusts, I would definitely recommend additional chest protector underneath.
Watching longsword fencing like this always leaves me asking if „proper“ Kdf footwork and all the indes actions are really needed or even useful in a real fight. Most high level sparring/tournaments with arming swords, messers and longswords display a lunge, parry, riposte system. What are your thoughts on this angel?
Greetings from Germany
I think it really depends on what one sees as “proper” footwork. I do believe we both(and many of the high level fencers) are displaying such. Martin’s footwork is amazing in its simplicity and effectiveness and I see no reason for him to try anything more complex or to try and pull out a specific one from the texts. Indes is perhaps what we all strive for and you can see such actions here as well. However it can only happen once there is a firm grasp of the direct attack and parry-riposte. I myself am not a big fan of the deep lunge and rarely use such but would never complain “it’s not KdF” if someone caught me with such.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing First thanks for the answer! Coming from military saber i believe that keeping one foot leading most of the time makes for quicker actions and lessens the chance of receiving a stop cut or a stop thrust then attacking only with passing steps. I think it makes for less powerful cuts but then again you dont need to split someones head to win a fight. And thrusts delivered with a lunge (even a small one) should be of the same effectivness as if delivered with a passing step. I just wonder about the benefit of passing steps compared to the simpler footwork you and martin use.
@@r.h5550 There are still plenty of benefits when using passing step - for example power generation is much better and even if you don't need to make a mighty strike it usually secures a better overbind on your side and brings your body to the desired position. Passing steps in their multiple variations also can help you breach the distance quicker. You may notice(specially if you've seen other of my videos) that I still try to employ it, and the 4 "standard" KdF guards a lot. However staying dominant foot forwards with point forwards sword means the opponent needs to breach that distance. So in that way it can be considered a more "optimal" position. But I wouldn't say it's a non-KdF way to play as you specifically have it explained in KdF texts. Martin has a great video regarding Longsword Guards that I largely agree with and if you haven't seen it, I recommend you check it out.
1:08 it's flat isn't it? Great vid!
Yes it is, but for top of the head, flat is better. Thank you
1:13 i think i would have walked straight to the car after that one haha
And miss all the other exchanges? No way :)
Looks like the Sigi King is a little on the short side 😢
Yes, in this case I am working with a "Shorty" which is about 10 cm shorter overall
Still, great sparring, you landed many great shots 😁
@@felicianofrontado3134 Thank you :)
Waitasec, did Villeneuve copy the Dune fremen knife fight salute from these two folks here :)
Martin enjoys this salute :)
It looked like Martin uses the floppiness of the Sigi swords to bend around your defense and it looks very annoying
I don’t think he uses it intentionally to do so but it might reach this way in the first exchange at the 11-12 second mark.
just out of curiosity: two times Fabian hit his opponents head with the flat side. Is this considered a hit in these rules?
Was wondering since it was shown in a slow mow like if it was an awesome hit (4.36 for example, and 4.44. the other occasion is earlier in the video) (ok, I m really confused, he seems to ONLY hit flat on the head all the time, also on 5:26. Is this required to do in this ruleset?)
Most of his “flat hits” are actually hits with the short edge through a zwerch or a schiel that turn after the impact. That’s a bit on me as for some I’ve done the stop footage a frame or two later than I should have.
No specific ruleset used as was just a friendly sparring.
Hema highlights
Thanks :)
getting beat and losing to THE Martin Fabian is actually something to brag about haha I'm actually jealous. Congrats man
Thank you.
Though, it was only free-play with no judges, so technically I haven’t lost :D
Next time I hope to meet him in the tournament and be able to properly lose ;)
That's bold of him to not wear knee and shin protection.
It’s acceptable in friendly sparring and we weren’t targeting the legs. I couldn’t get to his legs anyway tbh
Is this very exhausting angel?
It can be, specially when it goes on longer
teaches you something isn't it？ Just by looking at these exchanges
It sure does. I am happy I got to film it as I can review it at different moments and see elements I may have overlooked previously.
the two kinds of hema fencers: one in knight armor and one barely wearing pants
I am not sure what you mean. The only difference in levels of protection is the knees and shin protectors.
Never understand why they fight with those tiny metal sticks. Why can't they just make false edge no tip blades? It's not hard
I have no idea what you mean. If you can explain more I might be able to answer.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing the weapons that are being used in the video. Its their liberty to choose to use them, but, if I am going into a spar, I will use a sword, with a flattened tip and no edge. That's what I am saying. Do they allow swords like that to be used?
But the swords we use are exactly swords with flattened(and widened) tips and safe wide edges. So yeah, they are allowed.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing I didn't know. Thought that maybe they weren't allowed
We are not fans of the flicky cuts in our gym. Too sportive rather than combative. If you cut, it needs to be strong enough to be considered disabling or killing. Historically, the clothes of fighters would negate the flicky cuts.
I am not sure what you mean by flick cuts. Any of the hits that we’ve acknowledged in the sparring and I’ve pointed out in the video(with the slow motion and stop) we’ve considered a quality hit.
Love the fencing but Martin hits too many times with the flat
Thank you. While there might be some flat hits, I don’t think any of them being edge on would change much
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing If we are attempting to simulate sharps with our fencing and practice good martial technique I would say it changes everything
@@Judicial78 while I get what you mean I don't fully agree with you. A few of points if you will:
1. Not all fencing is supposed to simulate sharps and not all fencing historically was to be done with sharps. If we look only for sharp simulations there are plenty of things that would be very different in any sparring.
2. Trying to work edge on is preferable in most cases but some things can be done specially with the flat to reduce trauma - hits to wrists and top of the head for example.
3. I usually consider flat hits as bad if they have been done in a way that would be significantly different than being done edge on - using the flat to slap through otherwise closed guards, having the hands rotated in a way that allows flat but not edge hits.
4. From performance perspective, ones ability to choose and hit with edge or flat at their will is a greater show of skill in my opinion than only hitting edge on.
5. And finally - mistakes do happen. If it's a hit with the flat when we want edge on, it's something to work on in the future.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing Fencing is a tool to safely train with actual swords. If you don't look at it that way you are just playing a game of sword tag.
I see this god worship of Fabian, point out his flaws but then people always make excuses like you are doing or attack my character. "He chose to hit with the flat" etc. OKAY. If you think Fabian is perfect, go for it. His fencing is explosive and effective in a tournament, and he is extremely gifted and worked hard, I am not taking that from him, but his technique is more often than not sloppy and dangerous and is not a good example for others to emulate. He is a freak of nature so to speak and they exist in many sports and martial arts.
If you think throwing yourself into a lunge that you cannot recover from while hitting people with the least dangerous part of the sword is good fencing, I can't change your mind.
@@Judicial78 I don't think I've attacked your character and don't intend to do so. As I noted, mistakes do happen and while I am not making excuses for anyone, I do for a fact know that he chooses to attack wrists and top of head with the flat for safety. And for me this shows skill even if I would not do so myself. As far as him being worshiped or a freak of nature, I cannot say. I've fenced some of his students and most are certainly better than me, so whatever they do - it works.
As far as using the actual swords, I've done solo drills, target cutting and some light partnered exercises with sharp weapons. This is about as far as I am willing to go, so for me fencing will not go beyond a recreational sport.
Fabian has great footwork and blade control, but he chooses to hit mainly with the flat which should not count. These arent lightsabers. Unless he hits with a thrust or Zwerchau he shouldnt have scored any points. He also depends too much on the flex of the blade to wiggle so you cant see where the point is. It also allows him to get "hits" with a thrust because the blade is flexing down and hits you when a real sword would be more stiff and miss you (this technique is commonly used in all 3 swords for olympic fencing).
Flexible blades can certainly have that effect sometimes but I don’t see it as too common of an occurrence. Sometimes blades also turn from edge to their flat on impact and it may seem like it was a flat hit before that. And of course people make mistakes and it can happen. Some people may try an international usage of flex over a parry but o haven’t noticed such a trend for now.
Actually, real swords are flexible and bend around quite a bit as well - when you use them at high speed.
@@borislavkrustev8906 While yes, sharps do have considerable flex, a feder like the one he uses has far more flex than a sharp, which wouldn't jiggle as much. It has that much flex so a thrust will bend the blade. If a sharp had that much flex, thrusting would be quite ineffective.
@@bubblesareawesome1368 To an extent, but that doesn't really change the fact if it will land or not. Do this same thing with a sharp and you will get more or less the same result.
@@borislavkrustev8906 certainly not at the same level as those sportified feders. There are some "certified epee moments" with almost crescent level curves in the vid.
Your footsteps cannot keep up with your hand work
That’s quite normal. Arms are quicker than feet and it’s important to be able to disconnect them.
Still much to improve in both of course
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing
In fact, I think you can reduce the frequency of cut to pursue the deterrent effect of each one. Too many cut make you look a bit confusion
Now THIS is how longsword sparring should be: skillful, studying your opponent from the bind, keeping your cool and your form sound and actually being concerned about getting hit and defending yourself from afterblows.
I see too many "longsword tournaments" in which they just do two-handed foil and impale each other or jump around like rabbits all the time
Thank you. I really enjoyed and appreciate this match even if I was hopelessly outplayed.