DIm & Dimmer - design for test & installation
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- čas přidán 25. 03. 2015
- A look at one of my products, looking at design aspects aimed at helping with test and installation.
Product pages :
48 channel : whitewing.co.uk/rgbdim48.html
96 channel : whitewing.co.uk/rgbdim96.html
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I love all these little clever solutions and small touches that make a big difference. Good products are generally not cheap.
I'd love more videos like this. These seemingly benign tips and solutions to small problems pay back in spades when I'm working on a new design.
This is well in my top 5 favorite CZcams videos of all time. Mike is brilliant for the design and gracious for sharing the design decisions with us. Thank you, Mike.
Further proof Mike knows exactly what he's doing.
Andy Lawrence - Do you think he has approvals to sell these? I can tell you IPC, ANSI, CAS, and UL are fails here. Absolutely no means of strain relief or cable management.
Junk like this drives actual engineering design firms running away to real clients. Only slippery contractors using unqualified or licensed "installers" would touch this junk.
Finally figured out what is eating me. Actual design does not use fuses, melted parts, PSU current limits, etc., to create safe products. You are front to back from the start.
Safe design starts with industry regulations and builds in measures to assure compliance. I don't think I heard you use the word.
Your in a race to the bottom. The Chinese will beat you every time in this front to back thinking.
Crocellian Oh do be quiet.
Brilliant. Mike you are a god send with these low cost manufacturing tips with enclosures and front panel overlays.
Great attention to details. The kind of brilliant design that comes from someone who has done all parts of design, manufacture, installation, and maintenance. Shows what a little extra planning and forward thinking can do.
If I need to buy a crazy awesomely engineered LED driver I know where to turn! Thanks for sharing!
This is pure gold, as a hobbiest I never thought about just making testing part of the design, and it's so simple to do. Thanks!
EXTREMELY interesting, as always.
Thank you for sharing.
I’ve watched this video multiple times and love your attention to detail. And then I notice your Stansted installation picture. I’ve worked there for a few years as a computer network engineer now.
I will definitely spend some time studying it. Absolutely love your work.
One of the better video titles I've seen for a while! All great ideas, thanks for sharing.
Pure gold Mike. I think I have watched this video no less than 8 times since it was uploaded. Thanks for putting in the time.
This is such an educational and informative video. As someone who is still a fairly young solo Electronics Engineer I really appreciate the learning opportunity your videos give me where I now lack mentorship from more senior colleagues. Thank you!
Thanks Mike! A look into the concepts and sequence of thoughts is really great information. Its easy to learn the technical skills relative to the effort needed understanding how to apply them in a useful way that solves a problem and fits within the boundaries of practical and business needs.
really great.
I love stuff like this Mike! I've never had use for something that complex, but all of the outputs and row after row of connectors just look so sexy..
You are a wizard. Those are beautiful products.
Thank You Mike for the good stuff you post, you are the god of electronics.
Wow your attention to detail is amazing! Keep up making those interesting videos!
I don't think that they are too expensive.
Not considering the amount of work and forethought that went into the design.
Heck I would order one if I had a use.
Thanks for sharing!
Cracking video Mike, thanks. Chock-full of useful tips that could be used on a whole host of different hardware.
Great devices and beautiful end products they're driving!
extraordinarily well thought out design!
Wow, Mike, that's a great product and at the same time like a tour of your mind. I'll check the display examples later. The price isn't out of line for all that functionality & upgradeability. Not at all!
DigiKey is right near my cabin, I ordered stuff from them back when I was a teen and Radio Shack had too limited a selection...even before, GASP, the internet was public. (I had a mainframe PW through an excelled math class so I learned to program basic back in 1983) I'm not currently in this field (but I am in a field with #s) and can appreciate the design prowess & utilitarianism in your product -- and you are so right about idiotproofing things. People will do things you never imagined!
Not long ago our PBS ran a special and they figured out the easiest way to get a virus into a gov computer is simply to put it on a disc, sd card, or best of all thumb drive and leave it out.... on the street, table in a coffee shop....etc... and some one will eventually plug it in. They theorized this is how stuxnet got into destroy the Uranium Enrichers, it was a brilliant bit of code! It reminds me about idiotproofing projects of any kind.
your work always is the best, just no compare with other channels.
Another great video Mike. Spot on with the field test modes and dip switch setup. In all of these sort of setups the problem is most likely not going to be the dimmer but either wiring or software. You test the device before it you ship it so it is unlikely this has just failed. However you really don't want to have to explain down the phone to a customer how to fire up some software to verify this. Having a DIP switch driven self-test is a massive time saver for both the customer and yourself.
Great video, your videos have inspired me to start learning electronics. Thank you.
Super interesting, love the extruded case stuff. Full of good ideas. thx!
Hi Mike, just wanted to give a HUGE thanks for all of your amazingly informative videos. This one is no exception. The IR Power switch "fuse" is brilliant, as are so many of your other ideas. There's no question that you could keep these brilliant ideas for yourself, so extra thanks for sharing them with the world. I hope it will raise the quality bar for all and cut down on so much of the useless half-baked crap that has invaded the electronics marketplace. I'll keep happily sending viewers your way! Cheers!
That was absolutely fascinating, cheers.
really nice elegant design, looks like you thought of everything :)
For industrial controllers Simens is making clipped CAT6 RJ45 connectors, they are big and beefy, but easy to install anywhere and with no tools, just a knife is fine
Excellent video Mike, thanks
Really enjoyed this video mike, thanks
I build some similar kit for installations. For testing I tend to add an 8 pin header to allow me to plug in a custom debug/setup tool - basically a text display plus buttons to control the board and give feedback. It's handy as it means I can make the cable to the tool pretty long which helps if I need to test and see something that's being controlled at the same time. I've also used bluetooth dongles in some boxes, so i can test and control them from a phone :)
Very interesting video. Thank you very much for this.
Valuable information & great stuff thank you.
"Parts for test jig - do not discard" :-)
Fantastic! a video uploaded by Mike! You're clearly a guy with a hell of a lot of thoughts going on at an alarming rate, it's obvious with the speed at which you explain these topics :D
That IR3315 will be a useful IC to be aware of for upcoming projects. Do you know if there are any more in the same series from IR? I couldn't find any listing of related parts.
Thanks for all the time and effort you put into creating your videos- you're educating a generation of engineers with a very practical and pragmatic design process- and we bloody well appreciate it!
Love your pace man. People tell me I talk too fast too.
Many top tips, The price is very reasonable for bomb proof installation reliability.
I'm sure you get the comments "What, That small box controls all this!!"
Big Thumb Up.
Hi Mike thanks for a fantastic video and a good incite of what you get up too. Sometimes i listen to you on the Amp-hour pod cast with Dave Jones. I only live about 30 miles from you and it would make my day to meet you. also been invited to go and meet up with Ray of the radio workshop (Hastings area). Anyway keep up the good work Mr brain-box lol.
Paul from Enfield
Always a pleasure!
As a mediumwave/shortwave radio nut I'm really interested in knowing how you meet EMC/RFI requirements on these products.
There are far too many EMC problems these days, Mike is a genius but I too would like to know how much RF hash is generated by products like this.
Wow, thanks for sharing, I'm currently studying EE and this is the stuff they don't teach you. So thanks for sharing your experience! Btw, I think I read about that UFO in a Swedish newspaper :)
Thank you for share Mike
I too use a spi flash chip to keep a backup of the firmware & for updates. It allows the firmware to be updated at any time and the micro-controller's internal memory is only updated when the device is power cycled meaning that updates can be carried out at a time when it is known that it won't interfere with normal operation of the device. By putting the updated firmware in the spi-flash it can be guaranteed that only a valid firmware is available for updates. So if the code is downloaded via serial or some other potentially unreliable comms where data could get lost or corrupted a CRC32 checksum will ensure that invalid firmware is erased from the spi-flash and not used for upgrades at the next power-cycle.
Your one cool dude mike !
It is great to see products designed with troubleshooting in mind. What PWM frequency do you use for dimming? Our TV studios use lots of similar dimmers, and we ended up replacing all of them because they flickered on camera. We got some which allow us to set the rate to 6 Khz. That reduced the flicker to an acceptable level.
Great tips! Thanks!
Really interesting insight into product design.
A couple of thoughts: Printing the channel numbers on the other side of the green Phoenix connectors would allow them still to be seen when the plugs are in place and perhaps some black enamel paint on the rear of the PCB would solve the glare problem until the boards are remade. Only minor points. Thanks for sharing this video.
But less visible when viewed from above - not really a big deal though.
Thank you for the valuable content! A quick question - how did you set up the reset delay on the IR331 OC detection?
I like the LED haze thru PCB
For location coding, What do you think of a little covered dipswitch array on a PCB which plugs into the board that gets chained to the physical location/cabinet where the dimmer is - that way to change it out you just swap the dipswitch and can pre-install the location ids in the panel itself.
Thank a lot for this video! It's extremely helpful for making some small dmx dimmers I'm building safer. I guess using a ips1052 + a PTC fuse for high side protection would also be an option? Also, the ADM2587 seems very convenient, but it's quite expensive, how does it compare to a solution with a dc-dc converter+optocoupler+rs485 driver?
Hi Mike, awesome video, where did you find those cases?
When doing designs like this, how do you decide on the size of each module? I mean, suppose you need to drive 960 channels, what would cause you to design it as 20 48-channel vs 10 96-channel modules? Presumably, the large the modules, the higher the chance of at least one fault in a given module, but the smaller the modules, the more cabling needed, which has fault modes of its own, so there's some sort of sweet spot?
I'd like to find some DIN rail junction blocks that are conventional screw terminals on one side and those modular plugs on the other. I could make some on a PCB but would really prefer the complete moulded sections that DIN terminal blocks normally have.
Wow. These are really well built! I wish china would go through all of this trouble to make decent stuff. Also, for the test jigs that use white leds, change them to red with a piece of blue light gel or plastic over the top. I have seen a voltmeter that used a red 7 segment display with a blue piece of translucent plastic over it and whatever the ambient light, it was always perfectly legible.
China will make you what you pay for. They can make decent stuff.
Very interesting video, and has caused me to rethink a current project having seen those cases, and the way you advise making the PCB fit the case rather than the other way around. One stumbling block I've come across is the CE marking in order to sell products in the UK, and the cost involved. Have you any pointers in taking a product to market ?
Love the case and design of this things in general. I plan on a LED light for my house maybe a small Kickstarter and those will have 16 channels will use some Philips IC if I can not find something else. I do not like PWM dimming and those have DAC's for linear dimming on each of the 16 channels. I will be implementing most of those test ideas in to my design so thanks for the video.
Are those some kind of switching DACs with an RC filter behind it (kind of DDS)? Because how would you get rid of all the waste heat in the horribly ineffcient linear dimming? Btw. what's wrong with PWM dimming?
superdau There is no loss with linear dimming if you have a narrow input voltage.
My LED light will be designed for 24 to 28V input only so narrow range.
I will be using 8 LED's in series so just under 24V with 3V voltage drop on each LED at most.
Efficiency of 80 to even above 90% possible in this cased base on the input voltage.
Input voltage will be from a LiFePO4 battery nominal around 26V and can get as high as 28V when fully charged from solar and as low as just above 24V worst case.
I do not like PWM dimming is a personal preference dislike the flicker and electrical noise.
You may say that high enough frequency of the PWM will not be noticeable but it is especially at low duty cycle and if you have other devices with PWM dimming as most LCD monitors or other LED lights things can get worse and if you want to take a video that can also make problems.
There is no advantage of PWM in my particular case efficiency is as good if not better. 90% average efficiency is good enough for me.
*****
I hate the flicker, too, and cheap LED dimmers are especially bad at that. It's worst when it's a RGB dimmer and one of the sub colors flickers visibly. But that really is a problem of bad design and not PWM in general.
There are loads of efficient switching dimable constant current drivers though, where the LEDs themselves don't see any of the PWM at all. All that's switching is confined to a few components on the board. But I don't think I have to tell you that, since you build and sell your own circuits ;) . And with your narrow application profile linear dimming may be fine.
superdau
Is a Philips IC that has 16 channels with analogue dimming over I2C so I will have 128 small SMD LED's I quite like that IC so I will probably use that. I don't remember the part number but you will sure find it if you search.
If you do PWM dimming the LED's will see that for sure you are probably referring to constant current PWM switch mode power supply.
Nice thing with the Phillips 16 channel IC is that you can dim each channel individually but you can also dim by reducing the number of LED string used and it also allows to use say 8 strings or 3000K warm white and 8 strings of say 6000K cold white and then you can mix this to get anything in between in therms of color temperature.
I personally prefer warm white around 3000K and I found some nice >85 or 90CRI LED's
But things may change before I get on that project first I need to do the Solar BMS second version.
Fantastic video and (what looks to me like) great design.
As a young mechanical engineer with an interest in electronics, I can't really estimate what amount of engineering time goes into a product such as this. Would you (or others) be willing to reveal what kind of resources go into the development of a product such as this, for example in terms of man hours, leadtime and no. of prototypes?
I'm asking because I can imagine requiring products such as this (relatively limited complexity, or so it seems) for driving electromechanical products at some point in the future.
Mike what was the component what you use for short circuit protection?
Have you had any of these fail? Could you do a video showing the failed units, explinining how each failed and what changes, if any, you made to prevent more failures? Also, you might be able to use copper on the front pannel PCB to block the LED haze.
Pretty cool.
Could someone explain how the DMX address selection works with only selections from 1-11? I’m guessing it moves the address up by 48 or 96, therefore allowing up to 11 units to be connected on one universe. However this would exceed 512 addresses?
Most excellent!
Mike, can you please be kind enough to share the part number for the chip you are using as the pwm controllers on each channel. Many thanks
Few questions about RS485 PHY
1. do you connect shielding of the sockets? If you would not use a isolated RS485 would you connect it differently?
2. do you use a termination build in or as a seperate plug? Do you tend to use ~510ohms to to GDN and VCC?
3. Are shielded cables better (STP instead of UTP)?
Shield is to DMX ground but nobody uses shielded cat5 plugs - it's just for the mechanical solder-tab. Termination is internal via Dip SW. Line bias is done at the host end.
Where do you get your cases can you put a link thanks
I was curious what company these are designed for? Strand Lighting? Signify? Electronic Theater Controls? Johnson Systems? Levition? American DJ? Vari-Lite? Other?
Cool stuff! What PWM drivers are you using? What's the PWM frequency?
wow, very smart !!
great video, have you got a firmware version that responses to dynet (phillips) instead of DMX ?
dargs001 Dynet is RS485. All the dynalite dimmers used to have an RS485 line driver that you could replace! The newer stuff was fixed.
Hey Mike, would you mind sharing which 16ch PWM driver you used? Only decent one I can find that will directly drive MOSFETs (ie not open drain constant current outputs) is the NXP PCA9685 which is i2c. I was hoping to find something with SPI or fast serial like the TI TLCxxxx stuff (but without the constant current bits).
I use the PCA9685 - i2c speed isn't a big problem for 96 channels - I think it supports 1MHz clock.
Thanks mike :) I was going a bit crazy thinking there might be some amazing chip out there I couldn't find (chinese market only even!). Planning on building a little 16ch PWM controller with wifi interface (ESP8266). I kind of wanted SPI so I could add extension modules to it (with line drivers over CAT5/6), but the ESP8266 is so damn cheap I'll just use wifi as my data link :)
Hey Mike,
when making the front panels wouldn't it be an option to have them copper filled so the light does only shine through where you want it instead of double-print it. Or is copper not available when making PCB-front-panels?
Yes, that would work as well - My PCB place prefers to do 'blank' boards without copper, not sure why - may be minor cost increase, but could be cheaper than double-printing
mikeselectricstuff Yeah, I can imagine that they use blank boards and so can omit the etching. Would be interesting how big the price increase would be.
video2k007 FR4 sheets without copper on them will also be slightly cheaper than copper clad FR4. Add that to the cost-saving for not etching like you said, and it adds up.
How are these green connectors called?
Thanks for sharing... :)
You should go on Top Gear to demonstrate automotive ground loops.
When you tested 50 of these boards, how many actually had faults? Were they all just soldering problems?
Cool, I used those terminal block connectors in something I designed, for the same reason, easy to connect and disconnect if you are swapping out a unit, or moving it, etc...
Indeed short circuit proofing all those outputs is difficult. One thing you have to take note of when designing electronic "fuses" is the SOA of the switch transistor.
9:04 ... indeed, don't want broken current return paths. Reminds me of broken neutral wires here in the US, causing voltage imbalance, and possible overheating of other cables (coax TV cable for instance).
11:35 ... what happens if you have two devices in the USB socket?!
23:56 ... you could have copper around there, that will block the extra light. Also, the copper would help as a shield :)
Isn't making boards that big quite expensive, especially just for a front panel?
So one question is, did you have any of these fail or catch fire? xD
That is quite a good amount of current there for those PCBs
I couldn't find IR3215, anyone have any links?
AWESOME VIDEO. I was left wondering how you got into the biz that you are in. It almost sounds like you go to the installations in person to help install the light show.
In a related note - I learned from your posts that most "artists" in the area of tech, don't actually do any work at all in the tech details, and just farm it all out to engineers. Then claim the work as their own. That's eye opening.
Give an update on how many sales end up coming in because of this impressive demo video :)
Does anyone know where to get those green DIN rail mounts??
Amazon has them. smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Green+din+rail
What did Mike study in school? Electronics? Product design? Electrical?
Have you thought about adding Ethernet to one of your next Version?
Add copper to sheild from light on the front panel outside of the stop mask opening.
Mike, can you please share the part number on the IR Power switches? I can't really make it out from the video what you are saying :O
I think it's one of these:
ir3315
www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir3315pbf.pdf
AUIR3315. Older version used IPS1052 on each output
+mikeselectricstuff Where did you source the AUIR3315 from? I can't seem to find anyone who will sell less than 50 at a time.
+Nman120 You've not looked very hard - Farnell, Mouser, Digikey...
Late night vid!
Very informative video Mike. I'm in the trade myself and was wondering who worked on that Yogurt shop. I'm working on a similar project at the moment, perhaps we can contract you guys to make the boards? Can you send me your contact details and I'll be in touch on Monday. Have a nice weekend.
Are you a wizard?
SanDisk Cruzer Fit CZ33 or similar :)
You are a fucking hardware genius. Now I want to see your code to see if your genius is present there also.
Part Number ? Can be sourced at DigiKey ?? As an engineer and of course LED lighting user too, this board unit at first appears "complex",but once you get used to it, its almost amazingly handy, useful and relative easy to "program" as well. Joe - Skype: joerotello
For sale?
Yes - see links in video info
Love you Mike ;)
31:50 Why can't all companies & marketing people be like that. If companies selling their products were most honest like Mike, maybe people would buy more.
I think it's pretty much impossible to idiot proof anything - there is always one idiot that will come along and discover a way to prove you wrong!
WOW This video made me realize how all of your 'small' details (like the double stack USB connector, short-proofing, diagnostics, etc.) are often intentionally missing from products built to a price, which today are most consumer products. The reason, in part, may be that a "penny saved" by omitting an INEXPENSIVE part, adds up to a lot of money when you are selling millions of units.
Another issue is that sellers prefer not to exceed consumer's performance expectations, especially related to planned obsolescence. Besides, most consumers cannot tell the difference between quality manufacturing and crap...so why bother?And then there is consumer-grade product encroachment on the higher end professional product lines.
When I first read the title I thought it was dim and dimmer.