Kearney & Trecker 3H Horizontal Milling Machine: Installing a Parking Attachment and Universal Head
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- čas přidán 15. 10. 2023
- Kearney & Trecker 3H Horizontal Milling Machine: Installing a Parking Attachment and Universal Head
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Keith, you're in a unique position to find rare items for your machines. You mention in a video that you need or want something, and voila! A viewer somewhere has it or finds it for you, and the rest of us get rewarded with more good content.
Keith, you're not done yet. You're missing the eccentric hex blocks that slide over the studs and provide support for the parking bracket. They also allow the nuts to push directly on the locks without twisting the park bracket casting. They're part #3 in the diagrams in Catalog AR30 and are easily mistaken for the nuts. There is a photo on the PM forum now that I uploaded.
Thank you! I was watching going "how is that going to work" with the cover bolts through the parking bracket.
Thanks, I was wondering about that and then just let it go.
@mabmachine i went back to that post and looked at that diagram..thanks for posting
Put a thrust bearing between the parking attachment and bracket. Make it easier to swing.
That is what I was thinking. Looks like some kind of washer is in there now, maybe worn out thrust washer.
That and a little oil would really help. That’s a nice way to store the vertical head attachment, up out of the way and ready for action.
might explain the difference in arm heights ?
Doesn't work, it would mess the way the thing works. Keith would have to machine a space for the bearing. The issue here is that someone mix and matched two units together, thus the relative stiffness. Best thing he could do is lap the two surfaces together.
@@aserta Maybe look again .There is clearly some kind of washer between the 2. Plus it is adjustable.
Now I know what happened to one of those old milling machines at Georgia Tech when I was a student in their IE program.
Good morning everyone watching from Lincolnshire UK 🇬🇧,
Good morning to everyone. I cant believe the quality of the casting jobs they used to produce in the USA back in the old days. Its amazing. Greetings from Argentina folks.
I mean, US used to have THE casting facilities after they overtook UK. Unfortunately, CEOs and rich people melted those and basically sent the tech to China. US still has some of the best foundries in the world, but they're mostly centered around military purposes. Back in ww2, they were state secret. Some people got rich post cold war selling those secrets.
I can still smell that horizontal mill we had in Kohler High School.
Looking at top you may need spacers that go through u shapes that will allow you to clamp supports with out putting pressure on to bracket.😊
or make new nuts that includes a shoulder, I agree with Kdenyer here, you should not consume some of the applied torque in bending the bracket. don't rob any of very much needed holding load for the two rods to bending the bracket..... (i don't believe the designer's intent was to bend the bracket)
Yes, this bit didn’t look quite right to me, either
Post WWII, the program "Tools for Schools" was instituted and government owned machine tools were made available on loan to high school and colleges. My school obtained Gardner & Brown Sharpe surface grinders, Cincinnati # 2 tool & cutter grinder, Oliver patternmakers lathe, and Oliver jig saw. The program terminated in the early 90's and the loaned tools became permanent property of the schools.
It was probably made right down the road from me. They closed the ductile iron factory at the end of my street and when they stripped the coragated steel off the building you could see the Kearney Trecker painted above the window. This was one of their old factories, I grew up by their last factory but then it was Allis Chalmers... I do love me some industrial history! Even though the last factory is now a quad graphics the side street is still named Theo Trecker way. Yours's factory is on 68th and National. Google map it is cool to see! Go to 6800 w national and look at the big cream building tap the arrow to move in front of it and the metal skin disappears and shows the original factory. Neat!
Got to love a craftsman screwdriver
Good morning Keith. I know your back is very happy now. Great addition. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing. Maybe a brass washer or thrust bearing at the pivot point would be helpful.
Looking good Keith! Thanks for starting my day off!
The overarm locks should have some steel bushing through the overarm crane so they can tighten. As it sits right now they are not tight.
That would be an easy fix, maybe a short video of making a couple bushings and installing a thrush washer would finish things up nicely.
The nuts apply force to the overarm casting and the casting places the force to the 2 big round wedge blocks…so they are tightening. The force that the nut applies downward on the wedge blocks is basically the same with or without the overarm casting there. Think of the overarm casting as nothing more than a thick washer. Keith has it right.
@@user-gg1ze3gt1g cast iron doesn’t really move. It might be tightening some but it would be better to have through bushings.
If the greenish overarm casting isnt touching the wedge blocks, then yes, I would agree you would need (or want) to make up that space to tighten…but if they are resting on the wedge blocks, that force would be transmitted to tighten the overarms. I was going under the assumption that they were touching. Then again, my eyes aren't those of an eagle. As for the cast iron “not flexing”, and again assuming the overarm casting is resting on/touching the wedge blocks, there would only be a minute amount of “flex” needed to snug the blocks…and if you notice, the bulk of that overarm casting is floating off of the main casting except for where it is bolted at the top and bottom. Almost like they designed it to flex a bit. Would love Keith’s input…as not there to look closer. My bet is the overarms could be tightened as set up. I am not saying that “sleeves” or “more washers” or “washers in a different spot wouldn’t be better or apply “more” or “better” force. I was merely stating that they wouldn’t be necessary to tighten as set up. I guess there are 2 options…as is where the upper slots of the attachment casting are actually clamped when you tighten, or make sleeves and have the upper part “float” around the studs or sleeves. Gotta love a healthy engineering debate. 😉
Someone else posted that the K&T drawings show spacers innthe slots.
I learned a little bit every time you're i watch thank you
That is a wonderful machine, If you do choose to repaint it, I vote for that Green color. I remember the Western Electric machine shop from years (decades?) ago with lots of machines in that color. And. the walls were all painted in that same color.
Would it make sense to make a couple of sleeves to go over that threaded rod so the casting is actually transferring some of the load to those studs on top? Or make some nice nuts with a long shank that would extend down to the locks and the casting would hit those?
Nice upgrade !
"It's Time to take the Time" That took me years to learn the wisdom of that. I never had time to tale care of something that would make my life easier, but I always had the time to do something in an awkward and slow way. I too am someone who believes machines should show their battle scars. They earned them. As long as it doesn't hurt the machine, functionally, I like to let it show. Thank you again
Great stuff, Keith !!
You are correct that is were Mr. Crispin put his hat
Thanks for sharing Keith
I was surprised to hear how quiet the universal head attachment was when you turned it on.
Thank you for the journey again Keith!
Looks like the 'hat hanger' knob is shown as Item No. 48 on Figure 5 of the HR-25 and 92 Parts Manuals. The Part Name and Description from the parts is 48 Overarm shaft bushing (RH) Code No 3H-A62.
In the -OPERATION- section in the back of Operator's Manual No. 83, it is shown as (58) on the right view photo and called 58) Parking post for coolant hose when not in use. On later models the 'knob' portion of the bushing was eliminated, possibly as part of development of the parking attachment. The coolant hose would not fit on the knob since the parking attachment obstructed it.
Halfway through watching and I was shouting at my tablet "Take the washers off Keith"! You did 😊.
Thank you Keith!!
Good morning Keith, thanks for another great video
Keith,
It's nice to see everything installed and working. I am glad your lifting equipment and parking station are finally installed.
I realize that it is part of history, but of the K & T products that you put on display the parking attachment appears to have been an after thought. The weight of the universal head and the hinged boom arm seem to have design issues. For instance, the arm design relies on journal bearings for transferring a torsional load. I wonder why they didn't install a thrust bearing to carry some of the load?
Another area I find curious is why didn't they design the assembly as two separate functions; holding the parked universal head and a independent davit. This would simplify the the casting design. Mounting an independent ðavit on top of the mill would make it possible to lift the parked head, for installing parts such as rotary tables or dividing heads. It could also be used for lifting components that are being machined
The engineer in me, having 20/20 hindsight wants to redesign everything. It drives my wifr crazy.
Bob
@15:56 Georgia Tech! To think that machine was that close to where I live in Atlanta! I went to Southern Tech (est 1948 as the "practical" spinoff of Ga Tech. My two Degrees are ASMET AND BSMET for Mechanical Engineering Technology). We learned all the machine shop things and welding on top of all the things the ME Degree gets.
The universal head attachment gives the machine some real personality!
It’s amazing the machines that were made. As well, the knowledge you have. Amazing.👊👍👍
Thanks Keith, this is a fine contribution to your channel. nice video
Much better than making a part that is not original.
Happy Monday 😊
Wow!! All of the You Tube guys say this parking attachment is really hard to find! If I recall, one of the guys actually built one because he could not find one. You life is now easier! TM Long time viewer
Keith, we all felt your pain when faced with the necessity of performing surgery on an old machine.
Wonderful machine! Built the month I was born! Would love to find one for my shop some day.
Your my inspiration. Thank you.
Keith how about a thrust bearing on the swing arm.
Not "Kind of". It truly is what it is.
Nice, good job
But, but, but, the Universal head is the same colour as the Parking Unit !
I would grind off the other side of that large knob, to equalise them and make it look like a T - handle, give it a polish, and the job's a good 'un !
Stay safe !
Stu xx
Thank you for sharing.👍
I know you’re happy to get that attachment mounted. Take the vent cover to Lowe’s to get the paint matched and paint the mount and attachment only. Oil based machinery grey enamel will solve your nagging worry every time you look at it.
Reminds me, I need to fit my parking attachment for my universal head on my Brown & Sharpe No 2 horizontal mill..tomorrows job i think! 🙃
Awesome 😎
Most excellent.
I would guess that “knob” on your Model H is a lifting point. The “knob” part is likely to keep the strap or chain from slipping off.
I was thinking that too. It's about the only thing that makes sense for it's being there. We haven't seen the back to see if it has a corresponding one there.
That was also my thought.
Doubtful. That's too high up and the castings wouldn't take it. The load points are far below.
The other side is the wheel to turn to extend the rods. IfF you were using it to strap, which I don't know is correct or would work, the wheel itself would keep the strap from sliding off.
Too high up? You usually want your strap/chain points above the center of mass so you don't get weight shifting. We aren't talking about lifting as with a forklift.
Actually the mixed colors sort of work, more so since the parking attachment is about the same as the head. The only drawback to the parking attachment is covering up the badges on the side, but i;m sure making it easier to change will more than make up for it.
cool machine
Big score considering the condition and relative rarity of a loose component like that (at least for me here in Europe, finding a component of that vintage and specific purpose without having to buy a whole machine is pretty rare - which i've had to do in the past. Bought another unit, made the best out of two, cleaned up as best as i could the spare parts one and sold it on to the next person).
12:58 - Knock the pin out, save the original and make a new one, smaller ID.
14:41 - Knew nothing about the serial numbers at the time, but the one I had use of, say '58 to '64, was in the best shape of all the machines in that shop. We guessed it to be a WWII production piece.
22:25 - One of the tasks in my job at Cinti Mill was stamping serial numbers; that sort of casual alignment would have gotten me some 'comments' from my boss.
27:58 - A bit M. Mouse, but if the machine is in a shop where an engine lift (at least) doesn't have access, it does do the job.
Great video Keith, I need to find one of those for my model k and I need the horizontal attachment..
I would expect there should be some solid sleeves over the studs, passing through the parking attachment, but without applying stress to the attachment when you need to clamp the overarms.
These audio levels are very variable. Ron W4BIN
Machinery likes oil, Kieth!
JIM 🎉
Kieth, you went the wrong way. Should have modified the attachment to fit the machine!
Bad, bad, bad 😂😂😅😂
JIM 😮
Thank You for this nice video of the parking attachment.
You change the over arm support lock bolts for longer all threads.
I believe that’s not right.
Remove the washers and use a coupling nut or a tube extension so no extra force is applied to the parking attachment casting.
Otherwise You risk braking the system!
Regards PeO
I was getting ready to say the same thing, but you said it perfectly.
A lot of people think the top brackets carry the load. They are just a safety in case the side mounting bolts fail.
There are a few ways to do it. But you want to get the upper and lower clamps to clamp on the over arm without putting pressure on the top parking attachment ears.
That knob was probably cast for a sling point for rigging the machine.
Can't really tell from the video, but I suspect there should be a washer where the crane drops into the bracket. Original was likely some sort of fibre but HDPE would be slick and make it swing easier.
I had a friend who was a retired machinist and had a mill just like that in his basement. It was mine for the taking as long as I could get someone to move it out of his basement. The Basement was a walkout basement but both sides of the yard were one level higher than the basement level, and no one would bring their equipment into the yard to get it. It didn't have the parking attachment but had the vertical head and I was able to use it over the years while he lived in the same state. Sadly, it ended up going to the scrapper for $200.00 in scrap. If only I could have gotten it out of his basement... =(
Always a great video thank you for sharing
I’m surprised you didn’t take that knob off and machine a replacement one that would not hit that way you could kept the original piece 😂it definitely hurt my feelings when you said I’m just gonna grind it out lol it’s ok though
I would have milled off the parking arm bracket before I ground off the Cap.. Not gonna bother the bracket if it had a little more room on the right side.
i have a similar situation facing me with my parking attachment...my vote at the moment is to grind the parking attachment and leave the mill alone. I need to double check that once the slot is milled in the marking attachment is done that the universal head has all the clearance it needs still.@@donsmith3167
No worries on the paint colors. It qualifies as a calico K&T.
I have dark and light gray colors on my 1954 Sheldon L-44 Lathe. (44 is way length from under the head to under the tailstock - shorter use naturally.) Shows heritage. Regarding the Knob - maybe the kit had a new smaller knob - never knows.
Really cool! I don't understand how the mounting to the overarm support is supposed to work. It looks to me like the parking attachment could prevent the two nuts from clamping the wedges against the arms.
I have a B&S 2G auto screw machine which has been waiting for years for me to do something with it. It has an anchor stamp which makes me suspect it was wartime production for the Navy.
Oh no! Where’s Mr Crispin going to throw his hat when he visits now?
On the cat, cats look bad ass gangster with that type of hat.
All them paint layers tells a story and the love and skill, wear and tear doing work all them decades. Plus you already got too much to do in my book Mr Rucker.
The Repair shed is always asking people do they want a complete refurb or repair whats broken while retaining the memories and character of every ding and scuff.
The green colour of the parking attachment seems to match that of the universal head. As you mentioned the arm is a different colour. Maybe you need another working bee to strip and repaint the mill?
put a thrust washer on the pivot and a know on the lift arm. easy upgrades.
Patina is the word.
If repainting a machine, that should only be done with a restoration in my mind.
With how the overarm clamps work, I would think you would need some sort of tube nut to put pressure on the clamps and not the parking attachment. That is why the slots are so big.
Little oil or light grease goes a long way to make steel on steel slide and move easier. I too think a thrust bearing would help emencely.
Kaleidoscope-colored vertical mill, what could be cooler then that? A plaid one!
All that weight hanging on that little ball end scares the hell out of me.
It looks like there is a hole for a grease zerk on the crane arm joint. That probably would make manipulating the vertical head attachment much easier.
YES!!!! the video ive been waiting for. Thanks keith for showing this. Did u put a paper gasket back on or do silicone? I replaced the silicone gasket on mine and went paper but i do have small amounts of oil that does leak out around the air vent. I am still debating whether to modify the mill as u have done or modify my parking attachment.
17:08 oddly enough, i've found at least three Hs that have a different feature where that knob is. The boss on the main casting is identical, however, the portion where the cylinder juts out is recessed (i'd guess about 2mm) and in the center, there's a pip that's about a third of the diameter.
Pretty sure there is no Metric anything on that Baby..
@@donsmith3167Who said there was? I just expressed it in Metric because i use mainly Metric.
@@aserta well back when K&T were made we didn’t ever use Metric on anything here in the States.
@@donsmith3167 Bearings were often metric in those days.
the swing arm for your parking attachment has either wear or its for another model.!!!!... you should be able to swing it into alignment with no trouble you may have to check all the wear surfaces or make another mounting ball it is at the wrong elevation
i think I caught a issue, the spring loaded barell rods need compressed independently of that while assembly I think. making a sleeve that holds the attachment BUY allows the compression of the rods when you tighten the nuts may be needed.
That flange was used because of the original coolant distributer when not in use.
I wonder how the attachment affects tightening the overarms? Seems to me it is going to have to flex the casing to tighten them up...
I think so too. Worst case could crack the casting. He should make long nuts with a turned down bottom, so the attachment can float....
Ya, I think modifying the newer parking attachment to fit the machine would be a better option. It's hard to tell from the camera angle...maybe it wasn't possible...idk?
I'm guessing Ron Grundy watches Mr Crispin...
The knob is for a sling
Woo hoo, for the algorithm.
I’ll help it out a little too! Lol
@@Hoaxer51 And me!
Keith, could that knob part that interferes with the overarm attachment be a lifting lug? That is what it reminds me of. Just a thought.
Thanks for sharing.
Hey Keith I really feel like the way you're locking the overarm support is not correct. I would venture to guess that along with the longer studs, that kit probably also came with custom nuts which have a long shank on them to make up the space between the top of the parking attachment and the clamp so as not to put _any_ clamping force on the parking attachment casting
With the way it's setup now, I fear that if you really crank down on that to get those tight, it's going to crack the casting.
If the original paint just looks a little aged, then leave it. No flaking, etc, but the machine is showing you its badges of honor and service. Like the hashmarks on my sleeve.
It is a lifting pin!
Keith, I have the 2HL with the same vertical head. The information about proper lubrication is amazingly vague in tech manuals and in general discussion. Mine suffered from the common mistake that the "zerk" fittings are for grease when it is supposed to be for oil. I have cleaned it out and replaced the leather seals with modern oil seals (some casting modification), but have yet to fill it. Any recommendations for a suitable lubricant? I'm fairly certain they were far from oil tight even when new, so I don't mind topping off before any milling sessions. Maybe even a short video about those vertical heads for the benefit of other K&T owners? Keep up the great work!
Question? How do you tighten the overarm supports without tweaking the parking attachment?
Looks like a lifting lug.... :-) @12:50
Could that knob be some kind of lifting lug for balancing?
Could you drill and tap a hole on the vertical pivot and install a grease zirc?
At least the universal head is the same color as the parking attachment.
Would a thrust bearing fit under that crane? That would fix that stiffness I'd imagine.
Would a thrust bearing make the arm swing easier?
Hi Keith, how about a teflon washer between the crane arm and the parking attachment to make for easier swinging?
Mabey mill a washer from some delrin if you have any stock?
can delrin handle the weight? I have the same situation im going to face when i mount my parking attachment im sure of it. The mill head weighs 180 lbs@@jwaterous224
@@gexas38I'd look for flat roller bearings. Even the thin ones used in automotive transmission could handle the weight (hardened rollers and races)
will do thanks@@TEDodd
Is the old paint they used on machines lead based?