My Thoughts on Dancer So Far in Dawntrail
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
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Mister Happy Gamer, why don't they just add healers and tanks to get people to play more tanks and healers from now on? There's too many DPS as it is. I like DPS but it clear needs more people playing healers n tanks. People play whatever is new because they always want a shiny toy. So if the new class is always healer or tank. People will get better at tanking and healing
Yeah the 50 gauge instead of buff like everyone else - especially when the gauge is unpredictable and not something we necessarily control like other jobbers - is a head scratch. Plus someone mentioned not having Devilment -> Starfall when other jobs do that now... Otherwise I love the changes. Didn't realize flourish reset cd though, debating if that needs to come back, because without it at least it keeps the steps?
Personally the resetting cooldown would feel weird to me because the timers would be all messed up
@@gbtygfvyg Yeah that was honestly the first thing I thought of for a negative... Or would they?
The cd is 30s so you would dance between 1 minutes and refresh it during...
oh But then the idea of using standard step into a 1 minute to have both natural cd and reset... Ew I see the problem.
I think the reason is they made that change for every job that has a gauge that can only be spent on ONE ability. Ninja for instance didn't receive that change because they can spend on two different abilities. I think that's the same philosophy here, because you could still, for whatever reason, choose to spend that espirit on saber dance
@@Archersguardchoose to use saber dance instead of dance of the dawn? Why would anyone do that though??
Tillana is _not_ the only action that gives 50 gauge instead of a free use of something. It also happens with SAM Ikishoten, NIN Dokumori (40 gauge), and WAR Infuriate.
The issue is other jobs can simply play around it. DNC does not control their meter. You can literally go 3 globals in a row of just hitting Saber Dance during burst due to just getting flooded with resources. It's also why the instant Standard Finish is nice since you're less likely to just gain 60 meter during the dancing and overcap out of nowhere.
Technically, WAR still has a +50 gauge ability as well
and SAM and NIN (40 for NIN)
Came to the comments looking for you, I was positive there had to be people that knew there was still a fair bit of +(however much) gauge. Playing warrior after mch did make me wonder about that. Overcapped because I forgot it had changed 🤦♂️
Still wish we got the changes to Devilment turning into Starfall Dance and Flourish turning into Fan Dance IV! Oh well, I'll live.
More than those i'd love to be able to make Fan Dance 1 turn into 3 and 2 also turn into 3. It would make double weaving 1/2 into 3/1/2 actually possible on pings that aren't really low and without staring at your hotbar.
I’m very surprised that Happy did not mention that none of the new buttons generate Fourfold Feathers. Everything that they added in Dawntrail sits on the 2.5s GCD, and they also shifted Tillana to 2.5s. In the technical window at 90, we had 3 priority GCDs, which were a Standard Step, Saber Dance and Starfall Dance, after which we have about 5 GCDs to press our enhanced combo that started generating FanDance procs. At 100, we now have 5, 2 Last Dances and Dance of the Dawn being added, and SS being replaced by Finishing Move, and none of them generate Fourfold Feathers. So now I’m waiting very long, pressing all my Priority GCDs before I start to proc anything, which is more consistent, but after learning the Glory of the busy-ness of Bard and Machinist bursts, makes Dancer feel consistently slow. I think they should add Fourfold generation to Tillana or Last Dance, so that we have something to press while waiting for the GCD to roll.
if they added feather generation to those skills, wouldn't that completely mess up the skill order in the burst window depending on the number of feathers you had at the beginning of it? Because for the first bunch of GCDs in the burst, you do not have time to spend the feathers, since you need to weave in other Devilment, Flourish, Fan Dance 3 and 4. If let's say last dance gave you feathers and you already have 4 feathers, you would need to wait using it until you already spent at least a feather. But if you don't have a full stack of feathers, you can and probably should use it much earlier. Now imagine this were true for multiple skills...
@@Naryoril It should not be a problem if it was added to Last Dance and not Tillana. If going into Technical with 4 Feathers, it would go TF > Devilment > Tillana > Flourish > FD4 > DotD > FD3 > FD1 > LastDance. As long as the DNC is double weaving, there is always a window to use feathers before generating new ones. In the case that they do add it to Tillana, that shouldnt be too much to ask to not go into Technical with only 3 feathers. Even if you do go in with fill feathers it’s only a small potential loss of 150 potency. I think being mindful of having 3 feathers going into Technical is a good trade off for having a more busy and engaging opener and subsequent burst windows.
@@MaestroKytes I see 2 potential problems with this order:
1) With the way Tillana works now, you risk overcapping esprit, since you can't guarantee that you emptied esprit before using Tillana (and even if you can guarantee that you emptied it beforehand, you still risk overcapping... but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand)
2) As someone from Europe who plays on North American servers (to be able to play with friends), i dislike the idea of a Flourish into FD4 double weave, because it often causes clipping, since it takes quite long for a skill to become available if you have a ping that isn't all that low. For the same reason i don't try to double weave FD1 into FD3, it usually leads to clipping, while FD3 into FD1 does not, since FD1 doesn't depend on the FD3 and the client can send these commands without having to wait for a reply from the server first. Unfortunately that means, i can't double weave anything after Flourish (well, i could FD1, but that would risk wasting an FD3), which then means i need to push out the FD1 a GCD later, thus after Last Dance, or i would have to place FD4 at some random spot later, where FD1 didn't proc an FD4. You could use Starfall Dance, but i don't know how far off the cooldown of Standard Step (or rather, Finishing Move) is at that point.
All in all, it would be somehow doable, but i'm pretty sure it would feel way worse than what we have now, at least for people with somewhat higher ping.
@@Naryoril i see
Personally I'm a bit down on the DNC changes overall in DT in regards to the burst window.
Back in EW you had 8 gcds + Tillana during burst, and of those gcds one of them was for SFD which meant you have 7 gcds to play around with. While ultimately SD was the biggest priority outside of things dropping off, you were rewarded for going into your burst with at least 1 flourish proc rolling, which can lead to proc juggling during the burst window which I found to be fun and rewarding when pulled off, but YMMV on that.
In DT you currently have 8 gcds, and of those you have 8 gcds you have 2 LDs, Tillana, DotD/SD from Tillana, FM, and SFD, which means you now only have 2 gcds to play around- gcds that you will prolly wanna use SD over flourish procs give that 4 of those gcds listed don't consume esprit and Tillana ouright generates 50 esprit. This means it feels kinda bad going into burst window with any flourish procs unless you get "unlucky" with esprit generation during burst because you now have far less gcds to work with.
Also tillana bieng 2.5 means DNC no longer plays nice with SkS again, but I'm sure theres more to it and it's a minor point for me personally.
Outside of burst, the changes are fine.
To all my DNC's out there, we appreciate you 🙏🏾
I just think Dancer is missing skill replacements. All those skills transforming into one another but Devilment not having an option for Starfall, of flourish to Fan Dance IV.
Feels inconsistent with other jobs and even with itself, seeing that Tilana and Dance of the dawn do transform.
Yeah, I was super confused when I logged in day 1 and barely found any of these. I'd expected Dancer to get a lot!
I can't figure out how Starfall and FD4 are different from other moves that do this now. I assume Tech->Tillana could already exist pre-DT because both buttons are GCDs.
My hope (cope?) is that this is gonna be a gradual roll-out in some way and these 2 are yet to come.
@@Zejety Not only do none of DNC's obvious moves (FD4 and Starfall) get the combo treatment, but their naturally combo'd actions also don't get the option to uncombo them. For example you can't uncombo Improvised Finish from Improvization, or uncombo the dance steps from the GCDs, or uncombo Tilana or Finishing Move from Tech/Standard. None of the new system applies to Dancer in either direction, it's insane.
Yea it's slightly surprising that they didn't give Tech Step the Brotherhood treatment and allow you to accrue some extra gauge during burst. I guess they never did give the reason for the Brotherhood change though - it could have been that they realized could just miss 3+ Forbidden Chakra under Brotherhood if you are not 100 feet from the server and can't double weave under a 1.93s GCD
They did give a reason its on the site. Go look at the monk changes.
I recently resubbed because a friend started playing and was hoping to see if older dancer guides would still work to get an idea. I think I have a grasp on it but wanted to double check before taking it into duties.
Love the new moves but its extremely punishing now if you make a rotation mistake or die now. It feels better in some ways but it also feels very rigid now and sometimes in burst you can get the problem of not knowing when to fit tilana into it because of the espirit gain. Its still my main but theres certainly some QoL they can do to it.
Shouldn’t dying always be punishing on damage rotations?
Honestly, I would like to see fans be guaranteed when executing certain longer cooldown abilities. Something like Devilment filling your fans. I think that would really help with the downside of it's RNG and that feeling that you need to hoard every fan you get because you don't know if you'll be able to get more for your burst window.
Still super niche, but would be kinda cool if channeling Improvisation generated feathers in combat.
I think it's such a shame that channeling it is a damage loss even during downtime because you could have pre-stepped dances instead. And that holds true even more now that SS also gives Last Dance on top.
@@Zejety yeah, improvisation is a cool idea that has extremely little practical application. I wouldn't be surprised to see it gone in the future.
@@mattg6106 It is still a 500 potency aoe regen when weaved which isn't worthless, and unless the downtime is literally only long enough to get out 2 GCDs for Standard/steps, you can at least get a 5% shield out of it, which also isn't bad. I just think they should lower the CD on it to 90 seconds. There's no reason for Pictomancer's shield to be better and have a lower CD AND be less restrictive.
Of course I wouldn't say no to it granting 1 feather per stack and also granting Finishing Move at 4 stacks, which would just make it an absolutely wonderful tool in all regards.
I would prefer my DNC to have more utility buffs. I want DNC to be the utility job. Not so much Standard Step because we have enough but be able to weave a weaker Tech Step or be able to reduce the cooldown of it.
I like MCH and dancer but it's for nothing on NIN. I think in newer dungeons most classes are a hassle in hectic fights.
its becoming a little busy for me during burst but i would still like to be able to separate the finishers on my hotbar.
In regard to the 50 gauge conundrum, as someone playing samurai at lv100, we also have the same issue of ikishoten giving us 50 gauge and our new action; zanshin, being an ikishoten combo action that costs 50 gauge can lead to some unfortunate muscle memory problems where burning your gauge meant for zanshin on accident is very possible
Having an ability gain meter is "fine" if it was anywhere outside of the burst window. Outside of burst sure getting a 50 refill is cool or whatever, but you're (potentially) FLOODED with Esprit during 2 minutes that you can Tillana at like 20 meter and STILL overcap before you get the 2nd Saber Dance out by just randomly getting 80 meter in 3 GCDs.
one thing thats bugging me big time about all the classes is we get extra buttons you can ONLY press when another button has been pressed or in the case of picto with its black paint and enhanced spells locks you out of pressing white paint while you have black, while other classes with similar stuff DONT have a new button for it, if I can ONLY press that button then swap out the white paint button -.-
it just feels messy and like they are purely bloating out buttons or locking you out of what is effectively quality of life to make a class seem to have more buttons -.-
I know it's an existing skill but ninja is in a similar spot with Meisui where is still gives you gauge instead of giving you a free use of Bhavacakra/Zesho Meppo. Not only is it possible to be in a situation where it overcaps gauge if you're not careful but you could also waste that gauge on frogs if not extra careful. The entire Dokumori/Meisui buffing Bhav needs sorting out to be honest. Meisui should grant a free use of Bhav and grant Higi to use Zesho, this would streamline the requirements as they're very easy to mess up.
I will note the reason it MIGHT have not have gotten that rework is for a similar reason as to why Ninja and Sam both didn't get the change where at least in the opener all 3 are going be immediatly using that gained gauge almost immediatly.
Sam also kept the "adds 50 gauge" with Ikishoten. It's weird that some jobs got the free use and others kept the gauge increase. It's almost like this was not a requirement to instead grant a free use and was more of a "if the job designer deems it". I wonder if these will be addressed or changed in the future.
I see many people commented with other jobs that are the same way. Hopefully they will address this with .01 or .05 even if no change, some clarification would be nice as to why it is there for some and not for others.
The 50 gauge gain on Tilliana is weird but I've learned to not worry about it. If I face the choice of losing Esprit for a free hit vs snapping around unsafely for a quick Dawn, waste the esprit all the way.
Even with the setting to face an enemy when casting on, there's still more risk involved and it's better to lose esprit than die to mechanics because you got unlucky, imo. Dead DPS do no damage. Such is the way of RNGauge!
I do hope they keep the meter management
I wish Finishing Move was not tied to Standard Step's cooldown, so you could switch partners for more optimization.
I want my 1.5s Tillana back ; ;
still wish fan dance 4 can be used after fan dance 3
Would be fan-tastic
I can't say if I'm a fan of that idea or not
Funnily enough, Samurai had a +50 gauge without spender in Endwalker and... got a 50 gauge spender... in DT... so now you use the +50 to use the -50. Strange choices all round.
Hypercharge still feels iffy at 160. Honestly, the fact that nothing changed going into DT (in fact, the changes probably made it worse) is the reason I installed noclippy. If they're gonna pretend it's not an issue then that's where 3rd party tools come in.
Ironically I'm finding dancer you want to enter your tech phase with 0-30 esprit just because you have soooo many guaranteed GCDs that esprit generation is not a problem during tech phase. 5 out of 8 GCDs are guaranteed....so you only need 150 esprit to make up the other 3.
Which is kind of funny because we used to want to enter with like 80 esprit and we used to get 9 GCDs in a tech phase when tilliana was a 1.5 second cooldown.
Hey Happs. How would you feel if Dancer had an alternate version of dance partner (Like an “open” or “swing” position) that does not increase another player’s dps, but increases the dancer’s dps? Do you think that being able to switch between some variation of raid dps boosting and personal dps boosting as ‘needed’ by the dancer would help players feel less like the job is meant to only be used at high-performing levels?
I just wish finishing move was called quick step just to keep the convention of the buffing moves ending on step and so that it didn't have a name that is kinda similar to last dance lol
For real the dancer skill names are like the Attack on Titan Final Season part 2/3/4 meme. Standard Finish, Technical Finish, Finishing Move, Last Dance. bruh
about the gauge thing, ikishoten, infuriate and mug/dokumori still give gauge aswell.
I miss feathers in my opener
i was running dancer for a few levels not realizing that tilana didnt renew the standard step...lmao it took me a while to realize it now just gives 50 esprit. i was wondering why my standard step was falling off....turns out i was the clown lol i read the job changes but skimmed through dancer cause they said there wasnt any changes to dancer lol
Why aren't you using standard step on cooldown anyway?
@@Naryoril i do, i just like seeing the numbers refresh
warrior's infuriate is also still giving gauge. especially stupid as it even upgrades the skills. If they change dancer they hopefully do the same with warrior.
samurai also has the +50 gauge issue as well :(
I hate Tilana espirit gain. It is understandable for it to have that effect because of DotD but it feels bad when trying to not overcapping which is annoying in the first place. It really feels like DNC have no control at all becuase of most of the thing in burst rotation are gcd. May be Saberdance/DotD become ogcd? I dont know if we should let esprit continue to overcap like this or not.
So im guessing saving picto for last
I know the game isn't tuned or designed around casual content, but as someone who has mained DNC for a couple years, I am really struggling with these changes in dungeons. I hate that Tillana no longer gives the SS buff. I'm just a casual player, and I am still getting used to the changes, but it feels horrible to me in any context in which you don't have much control over when you can use SS. No one is going to give you a 15s pull timer on a dungeon boss, and the trash kill pace isn't consistent. I know it's just a dungeon, who cares, blah blah, but it doesn't feel good to be unable to try to do it right.
You should make a thoughts on summoner video where its 3 seconds long and you say its summoner shrug then end the vid
8:35 except for ikkitousen
So I’m confused. Are you supper to use standard step on cd or just use flourish and use finishing move?
For a proper opener, yes. Use standard step before the fight. But for short countdowns, try not to use standard step right away. That's when you use finishing move at the start
@@arzedeunebulus9232 ok thanks for your help. I was so confused cause I played dancer before this expansion and was so used to using standard step all the time. It feels weird to not use it off cd and wait for flourish and use finishing move. I also noticed the finishing move damage goes later than when you hit it. I’m not an expert at the game or anything though.
These changes have effectively made me stop being a DNC main, none of them feel good. What was once a simple, free flowing job has become slow and clunky to play. Going back to MCH for the time being which feels great to play
I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for you to mention that Tilana doesnt give you the standard step buff anymore, which was the change that made me seriously consider dropping it as my main.
Totally off topic, been out of ff14 circle for awhile now but you crossed my feed and gotta say you are looking good man. Hope everything else is matching up.
DNC looking like it'll feel just as good as ever, though idk what will change come savage
Maybe it was the skill speed I was playing at, but I hate how you have to use Last Dance before Standard steps, and you have to use standard step before Flourish (otherwise you lose standard step use)...but maybe your Flourish has 3 seconds left and your standard step has 5 seconds left. Do you drift Flourish so you can get an extra standard step off?? It's weird.
And then also standard step only STARTS to go on cooldown after you use Finishing Move. So you're pressured to use finishing move asap as long as you don't have a last dance proc...which feels awful if you're trying to plan to swap partners or you have to spend Esprit...
And all of this is even without mentioning the +50 espirit on Tilana which is everyone else's main issue.
Idk it just feels clunky as hell now (again, maybe my sks was cursed but a lot of these things still apply regardless of skill speed).
I want to point out that most other jobs don't get a free use either when it's concerning 1 gcd and/or ogcd as it is for esprit. You only get the free use when it's a sequence of gcd's that it enables. Not saying that it's not a change that shouldn't be considered but it doesn't seem out of place compared to other jobs.
Think warrior, reaper (shroud), ninja, samurai, ...
Seems like the change that would be more in line with other jobs would be to make it a charged action.
I know disliking the Tillana change is the common sentiment currently, and I'm not gonna talk over the experts, but I'm not personally convinced yet that it's a bad change-or at least that the designers weren't aware of what they were doing.
"Capping" the possible ceiling from lucky procs could very well be the intention behind the redesign and would also serve to make our personal DPS less dependent on group size.
Regardless, a free Saberdance/DotD honestly sounds kinda boring to me. It's just yet another "Pressing X lets you press Y", of which we already had plenty and got one more of in DT. At that point, I'd rather just get the old Tillana back.
But anyway, this is just mostly just theory for me at this point. I'm still in the stage where my muscle memory makes me press Tillana early more often than not, and so I blame myself for overcapping instead of the designers. >_>
what did Tillana add to the job before?
@@Neloch4 Not much either. I'm just not excited about the prospect of having to force in a free Saber Dance without any gauge management involved. That, IMO adds zero interest and at that point I'd rather just have simple, high potency-per-GCD Tillana instead.
Video starts at 2:20
unfortunately dancer commits the greatest sin - its boring
Disagreed
Based