Faith Alone Debate: Sam Shamoun vs Pastor J.D. Martin
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- čas přidán 3. 02. 2022
- Sam is Assyrian Church of the East. J.D. Martin is Protestant
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#ExploringTheology #Theology #Christianity - Zábava
Sam:
according to the scripture, according to the church fathers, according to the saints.
Pastor Martin:
I think
I don’t think
I know. So frustrating! And this pastor couldn't even hear the point being made and revert to that point.
I don’t think he even hears himself speak and understands what his saying
Could this be why the Christian faith is so divided.
He doesn't hear himself and is deceived. So close, yet so far away. Pray that Christ opens his heart to the gospel.
Sam had so much patience with this young man
Yeah I agree knowing how Sam deals with people who cut him off lol he gave this dude a lot of grace and I was happy they had this discussion but it was sad to see this young pastor tap dance and get into debate mode instead of just letting the Holy Spirit guide the conversation.
This is identical to me trying to argue with my uncle
you all are INSANE!
Lol. If you think that's patience, I don't know what to tell you. I respect Sam for what he is, but patient is not it.
Yeah so much patience that he kept on interrupting
Pastor J.D Martin: I am my own authority.
"And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth."- Luke 22 verses 24 to 27.
@@MichaelAChristian1 Amen. What is the relevance of quoting this particular scripture here?
@@iamtheteapot7405 The argument about authority made STRIFE long ago. The lesson to serve. Same now. They want authority to exercise lordship over you. To exercise power over you not to serve you. Or to not be of service and do as they please
But He is among you as one that serves. And as a 2 edged sword. Those who want to be their own authority, can also not be greatest without being as one that serves. Both argue to give authority to themselves to exercise lordship.
None doth seek the things of Christ. Hence scattering of Christians like tower of Babel.
Hence every different name being tossed around. Every debate is same strife over and over. It was settled long ago. If you seek to be greatest then they know what to do and don't.
@@MichaelAChristian1You said a lot of things brother, I’m a little slow, can you explain simply to me your point? Who is they?
@@iamtheteapot7405 People argue about authority still. It's prideful as the greatest is called servant.
Amen. You did Soo well here. His definition of Faith....saying it means faithfulness. Even the Google definition is more correct. "That Faith is absolute Trust and confidence in God." Then he says Belief means to abide in His word. It's good that you said "No No, that's not my belief." I loved the part where you said "Even you can't believe that." You have patience that's unreal. It's Soo good to see The fruits of the Spirit in you. You were spot on here....and very polite while he was condescending. God Bless you and your journey is going to be something amazing to see. God is clearly with you ...📜 Reading and studying Titus what it says in Chapter 1:6-9 we see Soo many men "unqualified" and still yet out there. It's very discouraging to see men who are discouraging The Church with gossiping, slandering and using filthy words and ungodly behavior. Soo to see your behavior was extremely encouraging. ✝️💕
THE TRUE GOSPEL DELIVERS FROM BONDAGE , AND THE SECOND DEATH.
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:
New International Version
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
King James Bible
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
King James Bible
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
King James Bible
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our. (SINS ) according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
King James Bible
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
New King James Version
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
New King James Version
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
King James Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
King James Bible
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
New International Version 1 Peter 2:7
Now to you who believe, this stone is PRECIOUS. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
King James Bible
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
New International Version
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by ( LETTER.)
JESUS IS LORD= GOD.
GOD IS TRIUNE.
THE FATHER IS GOD.
THE SON IS GOD.
THE HOLYSPIRIT IS GOD.
NOT THREE GODS,
But the one true God.
(HEAR, O ISRAEL; (THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD:)
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, WHICH IS THE FIRST COMMANDMENT OF ALL? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, '
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
King James Bible
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
New International Version
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GOSPEL MESSAGE .
BELIEVE, AND BE SAVED
New International Version
FOR I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL, (BECAUSE IT IS THE POWER OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES: )FIRST TO THE JEW, THEN TO THE GENTILE.
YOU WILL DO THE WORKS THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR YOU BEFORE HAND.
BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED AND THE SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU.
BELIEVE, AND BE SAVED IS THE MESSAGE.
New International Version john 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
New International Version JOHN 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
HEBREWS 3:19
New International Version
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
ONLY 2 CHOICES
DIE IN YOUR SINS, OR BELIEVE AND BE CLEANSED, WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF Christ.
BONUS VERSE
3:11 Micah
New Living Translation
You rulers make decisions based on bribes;
you priests teach God's laws only for a price;
you prophets won't prophesy unless you are
paid. Yet all of you claim to depend on the
LORD. "No harm can come to us," you say,
"for the LORD is here among us.
DO NOT TRUST IN MEN, OR IN WORKS,
BUT BELIEVE IN JESUS THE CHRIST.
I agree! I also admired how the pastor remained composed regardless of "Suge Sam's bullying". Fruits of the Spirit on display. Glory to our Lord Jesus Christ!!
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Listen to how Paul describes his conversion!
"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’
"'Who are you, Lord?’ I asked.
“ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
“‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked.
“ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.
“A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
"Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.
You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for?
Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name!"
Acts 22:6-16
Paul is on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians which is persecuting Christ himself.
Paul is sinning and dead in his sins at this point.
Jesus appears to Paul and Paul calls Jesus, "Lord!"
"No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:3
Paul obeys Jesus and goes to meet with Ananias!
Ananias baptizes Paul and this is when Paul's sins are washed away, and Paul ceases to be dead in his sins and not anytime before his baptism!
When we judge people we are sinning, and so we are dead in sin whenever we sin.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Matthew 7:1-5
"Whoever is without sin let them cast the first stone!"
John 8:7
Baptism and the Lord's supper are mysteries established for the forgiveness of sins in the visible church established by Jesus Christ.
Matthew 16:18, 28:19
"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them!"
John 6:53-56
What God says is, really is !
"God said "let there be light" and there was light!"
Genesis 1
God bless you for sharing this
Watching stuff like this is not a faith increaser. Its demotivating. It’s way overly technical and proves the church is just an organization. To argue what faith shows us watching, religion is just argumentative to for men to engage in.
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” I for one have started questioning these values they both espouse and find it empty and lost in the blackness of it all. Perhaps it really is just man made religion
This would tend to increase your faith and perhaps persuade someone to believe there is a God. But better for you that you don't have to have an experience like that to help you believe, Jesus said.
Its the second time I watched this discussion, JD is implying and presuming meanings of words. He forgets the context. Good work by Sam to be chastening him for benifit. Good conversation though it was fruitful.
This guy is trying to hold firm because his church members are gonna hear this.
And leave his congregation.
Aman my brother Sam. In christ jesus ❤❤❤❤ love from south Africa Cape town 😇😇😇😇
I had no idea he was Assyrian Church of the East! That's wonderful to finally know.
Was the good thieve ( next to jesus on the cross) babtised before his salvation?
He was baptized through the words of Christ...
@@rickvermeulen8916He died and rose with Jesus literally. We can do it in baptism, Romans 6,3-14
@@rickvermeulen8916 which baptism? I believe there are three (3) in the New Testament.
Sam’s translation of Gal. 5:6
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through faith.”
Or
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith which is identical to love working.”
Christ said to get baptized by water, physically, kinda like he did
Galatians 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Romans 4:4-5 King James Version (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
And that verse cites genesis 15:6 which is after three chapters of Abraham doing good works. Why didn’t it cite genesis 12 instead?
By Sam's own words, he has changed over time and take on different perspectives. Who is to say his views will not continue to evolve
, yet at a particular moment in time, he stands with and strongly argues for a particular point... which at that point he treats as axioms. The fact that he can debate well and present evidence does not automatically result in him being right.
Doesn't result in him being wrong either. Changing your views doesn't mean anything.
@@syntax575it does mean you are easily persuaded by fallacious arguments and lack true wisdom which is apart from intellect
So, what is the essence of the debate, if not throw light to misconceptions and illogicalities? As in this debate, Sam has stronger points than Pastor Martin. Sam is obviously more enlightened about the faith than the Pastor. And if we are to be logical, the Pastor should leave off some of his beliefs, which are very parochial and if like, informed by bias against the Church Fathers
@Flippiecoester
@@Luiicianoyou are attacking the person, you are being as fallacious as you say he is
J.D. praise the Lord for the patience that you had with Sam! I really enjoyed listening to yall's dialogue.
It was a fun discussion!
Yeah, J.D. did a great job. Soli Deo Gloria!
Sam needs to understand that a disagreement on an issue doesn’t mean the other person is begging the question against them. That was one frustrating part of the discussion.
Sam doesn’t care about all of that. You have to prove it scripturally. That’s what matters
@@bewitchedprophetofislam9048 And Sam didn’t. His faith = faithfulness is outright false.
@@coolmuso6108 Faith Alone = Faithfulness, is CORRECT actually. Faith without works is dead faith. So he’s actually correct. Faith alone is not dead faith.
@@bewitchedprophetofislam9048 No, it’s the faith (assenting to the truth of the promise of the Gospel) that saves you. Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit and the Spirit is received by faith - not works.
@@coolmuso6108even your "faith/belief" is the product of your "freewill" which clearly you yourself is FREELY ACTING ON/DOING.
So, St. JAMES is always right, faith without works is DEAD., thus, ANNIHALATING protestant heresy of "FAITH ALONE"!!!
😏😏
Gotta jump in here again because it's actually Sam that is not listening. I hear what he's saying and I think JD does too. The EVIDENCE that Sam is not listening is his continuing to interrupt JD which means JD isn't getting a chance to finish his point which means Sam can NOT be listening. I don't know who setup this "debate" or structured it but it was poorly structured. This is a GREAT example of why there needs to be Opening Statements followed by rebuttals followed by cross-examinations followed by Closing Statements.
That said I want to point to one specific EVIDENCE that proves something Sam just said is false. Sam would have a good and strong point IF what he said about the Nicene Counsel/Creed is true in that JD would be projecting his 21st century understanding onto the Council/Creed. Sam asks the question where was the Holy Spirit to guide and direct them? How about in the 600 or more invited attendees that did NOT show up?
Now to falsify his claim. He states "This is what they believed. It was universal. It wasn't something that was secondary. This was the universal belief. Even the heretics believed in baptismal regeneration.", etc. I believe that's a false statement. Where is the evidence for such a claim?? I believe I have read that Tertullian believed in Baptism being required for Salvation but wrote against Baptismal Regeneration. From what I recall seeing the subject is NEVER even addressed by Clement of Rome.
Given that we KNOW some of these councils got VERY heated and we have NUMEROUS writings from various ECF that pretty much confirms that NONE of them agreed on much of anything WHY should we believe there is Universal Agreement on Baptismal Regeneration?? WHERE is the EVIDENCE for such?? Sam says "No one in the 4th Century that represented the Church disagreed with the statements of Nicaea." We KNOW that is NOT true! EVIDENCE: The council itself in the Creed pronounces anathema upon those who disagreed with them on the substance/essence of Christ. Which just 56yrs later as removed from the Creed!!
And lastly, given that we have some, like Polycarp, who CLEARLY wrote that one is saved by Faith Alone, and never mentions baptismal regeneration, WHY should we believe there was Universal Agreement on it?
No you are wrong Sam is right like seriously check out the Bible verse Sam is quoting from baptism is important in Christianity
@@Cool.905 LOL No, you are wrong. Your OPINION is duly noted and summarily dismissed because, well, it's just that and MORE IMPORTANTLY God says otherwise.
“Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.” (Pro. 17:28)
"A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind." (Pro. 18:2)
I'm not only familiar with that verse but EVERY verse regarding Baptism and Salvation. Neither JD nor myself are saying that Baptism isn't important. We're saying it's NOT essential and NOT part of the Gospel. Nor does it regenerate anyone,
You probably didn't notice how Sam knew J.D.'s arguments in advance if you think he wasn't listening
@@HeavyDutyJack315 - You probably didn't notice where I gave EVIDENCE that Sam wasn't listening.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome You probably didn't notice that you gave your personal opinion and not evidence
Blessings to all brothers and sisters in Christ.
Anyone with decrement knows what’s going on with this debate.
Pastor J.D Marin, respect your patients.
Praying for everyone involved 🙏🏼
All Glory goes to God.
I haven’t watched this debate, I just want to add before watching that Sam is wearing a “ be kind” shirt 👕…. And I know Sam is high strung let’s see if he does what his shirt represents 👍 BTW JD I appreciate your patience during debates very calming watching you debate
@milkmeat What are your thoughts after watching this video?
Be kind and rewind!
ALL of life is a Mystery, embrace the mystery, while endeavoring to live in the flow of Love. Shalom
Act like you are suggesting take another reincarnation through this hell again. Not too bright. Jesus gives us a way off the hamster wheel. Have faith alone and take the step off.
Fascinating discussion on Baptismal Regeneration! A couple of things I'd like to bring to light. First, Sam makes a STRONG move with his truth claim that NO ECF ever rejected Baptismal Regeneration. I LOVE to see that because all JD then has to do is show ONE ECF who did. My question to Sam is whether he would claim Tertullian as an ECF? How about Clement of Rome? And what are the qualifications for one to be an ECF? Then I'd wanna know how the ECF actually defined "Regeneration". The second question I'd ask him is whether he believes Origen was an ECF. The third question I'd ask him is whether he believes everything that Origen taught and believed? And if not then how is it not just a matter of him picking and choosing what he wants to believe? Another question I'd ask is whether the FIRST Council got it all right and whether he holds to the ruling that James gave? If not, why not and if the very FIRST council didn't get it right then why should we think subsequent ones did or why not think that they increasingly got better?
Then there is the issue of Salvation being a different issue than Regeneration. Regarding the Nicene Creed why doesn't Sam believe in the 352 instead of the 381? And why doesn't Sam acknowledge that the addition of "one baptism" in 381 is NOT necessarily a reference to Regeneration nor actually in alignment with the words of Jesus in John. 3:5? Do we have any extant literature that tells us what discussions were held, is meant by "one baptism"? Since we don't even know how many attendees there were how are we to determine how and who finally decided what the final language would be and what was meant by it?
We know for a fact that the DOI and the Constitution of the USA was hotly debated and that some concessions were made in order to get it to fly. Why should we think the same is not true with the Nicene Creed?
what are you referencing when you believe in the 352 instead of the 381?
@@JohnQTaxpayer. - That was a year ago so I'm not positive but I believe I was referring to the two different Nicene Creeds. One in AD 352 & the other 381.
John 3:5
New King James Version
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
There is not much room for interpretation
Usually when protestants say that Christians can disagree with "non-essential" doctrine, they use this almost completely arbitrary standard of "non-essential" that has no biblical basis at all. The bible does not have an exhaustive list of "essential" and "non-essential" doctrine, so most of the stuff that they say is "non-essential" is just based off of their opinions. No where in the bible does it say amillennialism or premillennialism is "non-essential." The claim that these are non-essential is completely made up by protestants.
Where does it say pre-millennialism or any other view is esssential?
The Gospel is essential. Eschatology is not. This seems obvious.
This is an absurd statement that you are making as a false straw man attack against Protestants. Obviously it is not arbitrary. The Scripture gives example regarding non essentials and speaks to Christian liberty The two groups of Christians were arguing and passing judgment on one another, and Paul told them to stop “quarreling over disputable matters” (Romans 14:1).
After quoting the Scipture will you continue to claim that Protestants are being arbitrary with no biblical basis regarding "non essentials"?
Roman's 14:22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
Only Sam will make us laugh in a moment of anger! I mean, in a hot debate we just burst out laughing! GOD BLESS YOU BOTH! GREAT DEBATE!
God bless you!
Faith that was once delivered unto the saints & you know them by their works,
THE TRUE GOSPEL DELIVERS FROM BONDAGE , AND THE SECOND DEATH.
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:
New International Version
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
King James Bible
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
King James Bible
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
King James Bible
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our. (SINS ) according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
King James Bible
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
New King James Version
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
New King James Version
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
King James Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
King James Bible
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
New International Version 1 Peter 2:7
Now to you who believe, this stone is PRECIOUS. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
King James Bible
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
New International Version
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by ( LETTER.)
JESUS IS LORD= GOD.
GOD IS TRIUNE.
THE FATHER IS GOD.
THE SON IS GOD.
THE HOLYSPIRIT IS GOD.
NOT THREE GODS,
But the one true God.
(HEAR, O ISRAEL; (THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD:)
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, WHICH IS THE FIRST COMMANDMENT OF ALL? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, '
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
King James Bible
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
New International Version
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GOSPEL MESSAGE .
BELIEVE, AND BE SAVED
New International Version
FOR I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL, (BECAUSE IT IS THE POWER OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES: )FIRST TO THE JEW, THEN TO THE GENTILE.
YOU WILL DO THE WORKS THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR YOU BEFORE HAND.
BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED AND THE SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU.
BELIEVE, AND BE SAVED IS THE MESSAGE.
New International Version john 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
New International Version JOHN 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
HEBREWS 3:19
New International Version
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
ONLY 2 CHOICES
DIE IN YOUR SINS, OR BELIEVE AND BE CLEANSED, WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF Christ.
BONUS VERSE
3:11 Micah
New Living Translation
You rulers make decisions based on bribes;
you priests teach God's laws only for a price;
you prophets won't prophesy unless you are
paid. Yet all of you claim to depend on the
LORD. "No harm can come to us," you say,
"for the LORD is here among us.
DO NOT TRUST IN MEN, OR IN WORKS,
BUT BELIEVE IN JESUS THE CHRIST.
For having no moderator, this conversation could have gotten way more out-of-hand than it did. LOL I respect them for that. They should've maybe set some rules up front, but a great debate none the less.
I hope this is helpful, I think a good scripture to demonstrate the Great point that Pastor J D is making is Galatians 5:6. Faith Expresses itself through Love. “ if you Love me, then you will obey my commands.” We have Faith in Christ, we express that by Loving Jesus by Obeying His commands. 😊
Allejuia 🙏🏻💯
Nope, it's NOT JUST FAITH, But ...faith in harmony with work.
According to St. James, FAITH without WORK is DEAD!!!
So faith and works (obedience to Christ) is showing love for JESUS.
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. - 1 Corinthians 13:2
Paul clearly says that you can have faith that moves all mountains without love, so there's a distinction, but if you don't have love, then you are nothing. So, faith plus nothing (faith alone), according to Paul, is nothing.
@@jacobwoods6153 powerful 🙌🏼
Obedience to the commandment of love: how do we show our obedience? Is it only in mind in the abstract sense or we show obedience through action in reality? So having faith, but not expressed through faith, then faith is dead (James 5:17, 26).
Sam's behavior seems rude, presumptuous, incorrigible, uncharitable to fellow believers, and a poor witness of Christlikeness as far as I'm concerned.
Hahaha Sam was fighting the urge no to annihilate him. He was actually being very charitable the whole discussion. Thank God he didn’t challenge Sam to a debate.
You simply dont know Sam, his judgment belongs to the lord alone, not us. We are all in a spiritual battle with the enemy, and Sam admits his falts, he admits hes impatience, he struggles with anger ect. But that doesn't meen hes wrong about his theology. Sams not perfect like all of us are not perfect, but i watch Sam daily pray to the holy spirit live on video asking god to give him patience and to calm his anger. So Sam is humble, but Sam also has a amazing gift from God to memorize the scriptures almost perfectly. So because of that hes extremely confident in his theology, because in doing so he can look at the big picture and help layman understand. Sams not here to tickle people's ears and boost their own ego. Thats not why Sam does this, Sam could care less what any man thinks of him. What matters is truth, no matter who it may offend. But i watch Sam pray 🙏 daily for god to give him patience and humility because Sam himself recognizes his own falts. And isnt trying to hide them from anyone, you have to admire a man like him honestly.
@@davekendall1139 I agree that Sam is a gifted man when it comes to the Scriptures, but it seems Sam and you have agreed with me - he has "issues" that are unChristlike and they may be a distraction and deterrent to effectively sharing the Gospel.
I also agree that we all have our struggles, but none of them justify inappropriate attitudes, speech, or behavior.
Not "ticking people's ears" or "caring what others think of you" is not a license to habitually demean or mistreat other image bearers of God no matter how wrong or deceived they are.
So I applaud you for praying for Sam and encourage you to continue praying for him. Yet, the truth still remains, he and you both admit that he does have problems that need to be repented of and addressed. I'm also praying for Sam, but if Truth is important to us all and it is, then we must be truthful with one another and not try to cover up, excuse, sweep under the rug, or downplay that which is wrong and must be corrected and changed.
This is not a personal attack but an admonishing between brothers in Christ.
Sam, I have a question for you? Does faithfulness to parents determine whether or not they are the children of the same parents? Think about what you are saying Sam.
Sam, I was curious. I couldn't understand you when you said something about 3what the Assyrisns believe vs. the Catholics on Purgatory. Can you elaborate?
Basically we can read the bible and believe what we want, what Jesus ordained we can question everything, twisting everything, no wonder the world is a mess.
Pastor Martin - got introduced to you through this debate on Sam's channel (I am a fan of his content); I thought you did a really great job in conducting yourself in a calm and clear manner! Very much enjoyed the back and forth, but disappointed on how toxic some of the Live Chat was - hope you weren't discouraged by this! Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for the encouragement. Online ministry can be so discouraging since people always tear you down. You have no idea how much this comment means to me. Thank you, Chan!
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 i think you did great! Come to see more content! U r very inteligent. God bless you
@exploringtheologychannel1697 He could have been far more brutal, my Baptist brother, quarreling is not pleasing. Perhaps your position is different now. His position has changed as well. Praying for us.
Seems you two are discussing the same thing James talked about when he said I will show you my faith by my works.
Pastor Martin, unfortunately, I have not been able to reach you by FB! Are you open to having a debate on Purgatory? Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Please email me at Jamie.dan.martin@gmail.com.
Please reply to this comment after you email me.
Loving it! So far 54 minutes in JD keeping composure throughout the constant interruptions and side stepping from Romounian attempts.
Desire of Baptism? What scripture verse is that?
Why must we demonstrate it from scripture? The bible doesn't teach sola scriptura.
Where in scripture does it say baptism isn’t necessary for salvation? Clear statement, not an interpretation.
What happens to someone who isn't baptized. Will he see the kingdom of God. Or was Jesus lying in John 3:3-5?
@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha what does water refer to in John 3:5 and how do you know?
@@ReyWho water refers to water baptism. Which is what Noah's flood represents. 8 people were saved by water. While Jesus was on the cross the Roman stabbed his side and water came pouring out. Represents the world being baptized.
1 Peter 3:20-21 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, 👉🏻 *eight souls were saved by water* 👈🏻
21 👉🏻 *The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us* 👈🏻 (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
I’m sure there are a ton of catholics here, Someone answer this please.
Jesus was under the law and followed it perfectly while on earth correct?
The law said you are not to consume blood correct?
But then while still under the law Jesus has communion with the disciples and says take drink for this is my blood of the covenant. Now if this is actually His blood is He then telling them to break the law?
God Is Above the law. He Alone Is Truth.
@@MEGA1FILM Jesus had to do what man could not and that was to follow the law perfectly. Therefore He could not have broken the law nor caused His disciples to. So it’s not Jesus’ actual blood and flesh consumed during communion. Catholics are wrong about this among many other things.
For Jesus Christ believe is doing what God says.
His parable of two sons who their Father called one and sent him on an errand and he said No but later went, then the other said yes but didn't do it.
He then asked who amongst them did the his Father's will?
This was a year ago. I saw recent post of June 2024, Sam converted to Roman Catholicism. ❤
False.
There are truly saved members of our family that take communion at mass, however, the catechism and doctrine that lands outside Scripture. We only have one priestly intercessor whose name we pray, Mary and the Saints dont get us to the Father, only Christ. I take communion at mass every now and then btw
TRUE!
Sam, I find it incomprehensible how such a smart "believer" is dismissive of the power the Holy Spirit over the apostles, apostolic fathers, Doctors of the Church so as to keep His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church's deposit of faith intact, generation after generation; when Jesus himself asked Peter, the leader of the Church, if he loved him more than the other apostles and to care for his flock. Jesus made it a point that He would not leave His Church without visual representation and acephalic. That's something only Satan would have desired.
So, amongst all the apostles Peter loved Him the most, and Jesus knew it and made it a point to highlight this fact thrice. Finally, Jesus said that He was to pray for Peter's stewardship of His flock, not that of the heretical 64,000 Christian sects in existence today. And, that in the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit that Jesus left us, the gates of hades will never prevail over it.
The young pastor, unaware, lives in discontinuity with the Primitive Church, its history, and the Deposit of Faith, and resists the Holy Spirit in some areas with man-made protestant exegesis a la James White, who seems to hold the keys, "not Peter", of knowledge/exegesis to True Church Belief 2000 years later. He really does not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, let alone the literal meaning of the Bible, but on his power of persuasion, exegesis and endless ranting disputation.
Again, so much knowledge and articulation, yet the young pastor, as most hard core protestants, don't heed the literal meaning of Jesus' words in the Bible. Instead, their spirit is one of disputation, protestation and hatred for the True Church; the same spirit that divided Christians in 1054 and 1521.
I hope the pastor is a truth seeker and is lead by the Holy Spirit, and matures in his understanding of where the Bible he holds in his hands and where any orthodox deposit of faith he believes in comes from.
Blessings and excellent debate!!!
Nowhere does it mention that Peter loved Jesus more than the other apostles. Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him 3x times, very likely to restore him after he denied Him 3x. Just because Jesus gave Peter primacy, it does not mean that was based on him loving him more than the other apostles. There can be other reasons for entrusting a person or persons with something other than their love for you. Even in the OT, God chose Israel out of all the nations, but that does not mean it was because they loved him more. In fact, it's made clear that they were chosen based on nothing they had done. Jacob and Esau is another example of God choosing one over another for his own purposes, since He made that choice before they were born. Let's not try to refute Protestantism by falling into their own errors of reading our own thoughts and speculations into the Holy Scriptures.
Brother Sam the Holy Spirit kept you so patient here lol... unfortunately, the kid didn't want to hear truth... he wanted to win an argument.. and he did neither.. got hit with straight facts and said "well I think that's wrong, because I think so"
You clearly have no clue. Sam is without patience. He is lost so I'm not surprised.
I had a Baptist say to me recently, "Once you are saved by Jesus, you are saved forever", in other words, Once saved always saved. This is indeed a grand statement, so could someone give me the biblical passage where this grand statement is made? I have looked and looked, and "Once saved always saved" is not mentioned anywhere. Can anyone help?
don’t listen to that baptist. He’s preaching a false gospel.
The scriptures tell us once we are saved Always saved. Even if we lose faith and cease to believe.
This is because salvation is dependant upon what Christ did for us on the cross, not our own works. Christ is still going to remain faithful to his promise to save you when you first believed and he cannot deny you because you are part of his body, you are one with him spiritually and bone of his bone flesh of his flesh ( 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 5:30-33). To deny you would be denying himself because as just I said both you and the Christ are one.
2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself
All our sins are forgiven past present and future when we place our faith in the gospel.
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Salvation is a free gift Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It also says that the gifts of god are without repentance, which means that once God gives a gift he will NEVER take it back.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
All our sins are forgiven past present and future when we place our faith in the gospel.
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Salvation is a free gift Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It also says that the gifts of god are without repentance, which means that once God gives a gift he will NEVER take it back.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
It is a true statement because the scriptures teach that you are sealed unto the day of redemption and many fall away and you may have heard them say, I use to believe but I don't any longer. John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. What say you?
@@amos3three941 if u can fall off then u ain’t always saved. U have a responsibility to stay in grace by being Christlike.
Once Baptized always Baptized. Eternal life that NEVER ENDS. IMMUTABLE PROMISE OF GOD. GOD will NEVER leave you nor forsake you. You shall NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION. Full ASSURANCE OF HOPE.
Hope you havent seen yet as Romans 9 says. Full ASSURANCE OF FAITH.
Does that help? That's Eternal security. Or as you label it once Saved always saved. More powerful Matthew 1:21. Jesus means HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS! His name can't be broken. Do you believe ON HIS NAME!
I watched it earlier live. I thought it was pretty much disappointing. The core issue was never really even touched, u both side tracked each other constantly and spend too much time just talking about everything but the issue at hand.
I hope your next talks will be better. You both have so much potential for great debates and discussions
I am looking forward to the next talk!
I agree, there was way too much talking past each other and distraction, going down rabbit trails. Having a moderator to keep the dialogue on track would have been beneficial.
Can you show me 1 verse in the entire Bible that says we are saved by faith alone. I'll wait.
@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha you’re starting to sounds like a Muslim. “Can you show me where Jesus says I am God”
Or a Jehovah witness says “show me one verses with the word trinity”
We both know that doctrines aren’t established that way.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been 👉🏻justified👈🏻 by 👉🏻faith👈🏻, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but 👉🏻believes 👈🏻in 👉🏻him👈🏻 who 👉🏻justifies👈🏻 the ungodly, his 👉🏻faith👈🏻 is counted as 👉🏻righteousness👈🏻,
Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham 👉🏻believed👈🏻 God, and it was 👉🏻counted👈🏻 to him as. 👉🏻righteousness👈🏻
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by 👉🏻 GRACE👈🏻you have been saved through 👉🏻faith👈🏻. And this is not your own 👉🏻doing👈🏻; it is the 👉🏻gift👈🏻 of God, not a result of 👉🏻WORKS👈🏻, so that no one may boast.
@@jamesb6818 I didn't ask you to show me the exact words faith alone. Because even if you did that there is only 1 verse that actually says faith alone. That's James 2:24.
Also I never said we are saved by the works of the law of Moses. Not really sure why you posted a bunch of verses about works of the law of Moses. We don't teach that anyways. So that is straw man argument to post all those verses.
I asked you to show me where the Bible says/teaches we are saved by faith alone. None of those verses say faith is alone in the process of sanctification. You aren't going to find a single verse that teaches faith is alone. Faith and works of the law of Christ go together. You can't have one apart from the other.
J.D Sam kept interrupting when you were trying to lay out its very annoying, but it shows insecurity, however he Conveniently was able to control himself unlike on his streams...like he Conveniently controls himself when on other people's channels but not his own
His channel, his rules.
I don't know why that would seem crazy to you.
@@elpibe1924
It's called respect
Sam has always been interrupting his whole life on debates.
He said we should all be bereans 💪⛪️📖
I’m a Baptist Protestant as of now. But I admit that I cannot defend my position on the points Sam made if I’m being consistent to the Church History and to myself as well.
Good points!
I’ll be exploring more on church history and now I’m studying Orthodox Christianity.
"And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth."- Luke 22 verses 24 to 27.
First study and meditate on the word that you may not be deceived by men writings and men's church history. Indeed it is good to know the history. But you should know the word predates all that history.
It's like if you want to become a doctor; you studied a doctor's book. So if we want to be a true believer of Jesus; we must know the word. So studying the Bible for it is the one that takes you right back to Jesus and Apostles timeline. Church history will lead you only to men creating things but not truly to Jesus.
Sam has gonna off the rockers the last 2 years …once you start digging 😳.
I'm sorry if I am attacking you brother JD but on Sam channel you said this was not a debate but just a discussion but here you are writing that it is a debate. Why would you lie? your title should be a discussion not a debate. As a minister of the Gospel be true to yourself.
Where did I mention it was not a debate? I said a lot of things in this discussion, so I don't remember everything.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 i will check the time line and send to you brother. just give me some time.
Opening prayer you multiple times call it a conversation.
1:42:44 in concluding remarks its against referred to as a conversation.
I don’t view a debate as a bad thing. A debate is a discussion where people disagree. Thus, in my view every debate is a discussion, but every discussion is a debate since if you agree it can’t be called a debate.
Where do you guys read that salvation is “by faith🤔” scripture teaches that it’s by grace through faith, not our own - it’s the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9)
How is the Assyrian church in communion with Rome if you reject Theotokos?
Baptism don't save you it's showing obedience to God
It's doesn't not Don't
And yeah if you have a problem solve it with Peter not us
1 Peter 3:20
New International Version
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
1 Peter 3:21
New International Version
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
John 3:5 “Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’
Acts 22:16 “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”
Salvation is by faith
@@kiroshakir7935using the niv just shows your not very knowledgeable my brother or sister in Christ
@@Bornagain5.56 I know it's not the most popular in scholarly discourse
and has some questionable translation choices
but I quoted it because it's the easiest and most accessible
Besides the translation of the verses in question is virtually the same compared to the "better translations" like the ESV and NRSV
@@kiroshakir7935 yall are both right they go together.
The biggest contrast in the discussion was the contrast between JD's humility and Sam's lack of humility. JD, great job with a difficult personality. Every-time Sam tried to throw his weight around (e.g. "well, you just don't understand my point," or "I used to be where you are and you are just on a journey"), I couldn't help but think about that lesson my law professor taught me. If he can't articulate his counter-point to you clearly, you have no reason just to accept his rejection of your point. Great job not backing down but being very gracious in your response.
I disagree. I saw two honest and humble men have a discussion. Sissified Christians like you have no spine and this anyone who is firm is "arrogant" and not humble. Get off your high horse
@@Thedisciplemike looks like you need to get off your high horse, Mike.
@@Davian_James great comeback
@@Thedisciplemike Yours too!
@@Thedisciplemike - It had nothing to do with firmness. It had everything to do with the pretense that Sam was “educating” JD and every time there was a difference in view it was because JD “just didn’t understand”. We understand Sam just fine.. and think he are wrong. Sam did not show humility.
Why in the world are you guys discussing Michael Heiser? I’m so sick of everybody pointing to Heiser like he’s the apostle Paul. The dude has the most dishonest and incoherent arguments.
Bless his heart....it's fine to have the confidence of your convictions, young man. At some point, however, you just really need to concede to the wisdom of someone who's studied these things longer.
The only time the phrase "Faith Alone" is found in scripture is in James 2:24 "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
What a terrible argument lol
@cool muso that's the classic catholic argument. Reminds me of a weaker version of calvinism....just a doctrine in search of a proof text.
@@coryalbright9798 Debate me on Instagram livestream on what “faith alone “ means
@@coolmuso6108 "what a terrible argument lol" says a dude who then proceeds not to make any rebuttal whatsoever. Either you're too lazy or you actually don't know how
@@coryalbright9798 and you're answer to it is...?
Faith ALONE is a man made tradition, for even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, IT IS USELESS, as we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
No, faith alone is a biblical doctrine. Faith plus works is a man made doctrine.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] *NOT OF WORKS* , lest any man should boast.
Romans 4:4-8 KJV
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that *WORKETH NOT* , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 3:20-24 KJV
Therefore *BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL BE NO FLESH JUSTIFIED* in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Galatians 2:16 KJV
Knowing that a man *IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW* , but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and *NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW* : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 3:28 KJV
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith *WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.*
Hebrews 6:1 KJV
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of *repentance from dead works* , and of faith toward God,
Romans 10:3-4 KJV
For they being *ignorant of God's righteousness,* and going about to establish their own righteousness, *have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God* . [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Over and over the Bible makes it clear that a person is saved by faith without works. Yet many people deny this and claim that passages such as James 2.24 teach that a person is saved by faith and works. This is false, the Bible does not contradict itself.
James 2:24 KJV
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Is James 2.24 teaching that a person is saved by faith and works? No. It is not even talking about salvation. Both Paul and James use the word dikaioo which is translated as justified. This word has a range of meanings depending on the context. Dikaioo had primarily a forensic (legal) use meaning that one is declared righteous, acquitted, this is the way Paul uses it and is talking about in the sight of God. James however does not use dikaioo in this way, instead he uses it in the same way that 1 Timothy 3.16 and Luke 7.35 uses it which is talking about vindication, something being proven to be true. Justification in these passages is simply referring to that. It would be absurd to say that dikaioo (justified) in relation to Christ is talking about him being saved. Because people fail to recognise how dikaioo is used they end up misunderstanding the Bible.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, *justified* in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Luke 7:35 KJV
But wisdom is *justified* of all her children.
James agrees with Paul. That is why they both quote Genesis 15.6. James quotes this in verse 23, just prior to the passage many claim teaches that you are saved by faith. Yet Abraham was 75 when he got saved. (Joshua 24, Genesis 12). About 100 years old he get circumcised. Years later he finally offered up Isaac. To say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac saved him denies that he was saved prior which us evidently false.
James 2:23-24 KJV
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Genesis 15:6 KJV
And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Abraham was not saved by being circumcised.
Romans 4:9-12 KJV
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. [10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? *Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.* [11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: [12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, *which he had being yet uncircumcised.*
Neither was he saved by offering up Isaac. Abraham was saved before he offered up Isaac, he was saved before circumcision, he was saved by calling on the Lord, his faith saved him. When James says Abraham was justified by offering up Isaac he is talking about being justified in the sight of men. Not God.
Romans 4:2 KJV
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but *NOT BEFORE GOD.*
Abraham proven his faith by his works. This is the point James was making. That is why James 2:18 says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Man cannot see someones heart to know if they are saved. Man looks at works. In the sight of man, Abraham was justified by his works, in other words, his faith was proven to be true.
Paul and James are not talking about the same thing. Paul is speaking against self-righteous Judaism while James is talking about dead orthodoxy. When Paul speaks about justification he is talking about the declaration of innocence before God. When James speaks about justification it is talking about the sanctification of believers in the sight of men. Paul is speaking about Genesis 15.6, yet the emphasis of James is on Genesis 22.
People are saved by faith, not works. Over and over the Bible repeats itself on this point. Paul strongly rebukes the Galatians calling them foolish for later adding an element of the law to the Gospel, thinking they would be justified by it.
Galatians 3:3-13 KJV
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. [5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
People were preaching false gospels of salvation, one of which included the work of circumcision. The type of work added to the Gospel for salvation is irrelevant, any work added makes it a false gospel (which the Bible warns of). As Paul makes known in Galatians 5.4, that Christ became no effect to the Galatians, since they were seeking to be justified by the works they included. Therefore whoever believes in a Gospel of works is not believing in Christ for salvation. A person can claim they trust in Christ, yet whoever believes works are a part of salvation clearly do not as the Bible reveals.
Galatians 5:3-5 KJV
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. [5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Titus 3:4-5 KJV
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, [5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
In conclusion, the Bible teaches that a person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, not of works. The Bible teaches that those who add work (whatever work that might be) to the Gospel are preaching a false gospel, one that frustrates the grace of God and renders Christ of no effect to those who receive it. In short, a person cannot be saved by believing such a gospel.
FALSE GOSPEL
Christ + faith + works = salvation
TRUE GOSPEL
Christ + faith =salvation
Salvation is a free gift of God, given by his grace and mercy. It is not earned. It is a gift.
@@jesusisgod2953 sorry to say but faith alone as defined by the protestant in not biblical, its a man made tradition created on 16th century later.
@@christianspear6322
Salvation is a gift. It is free. You don't work for it, you don't earn it neither can you add to what Christ did. Christ is sufficient. Not our filthy rags.
@@christianspear6322 i think you do not even know what "Faith alone" means
Ok then.. how much good works have you done to add to to His grace....who has bewitch you?
Is it with in the character of God to leave his sheep unsure of their salvation? That sounds like it would encourage fear, anxiousness and depression rather than assuredness, comfort and rest ... I know nothing and am still learning but thats where im at so far
Take what they said into careful account. Honestly consider it. Do your best with scripture and be honest.
I am a Catholic Christian, and I believe that even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, it is useless, as Holy Scripture teaches! I also believe that we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved, as Holy Scripture also teaches!
I am very impressed though with the kindness and humility of Pastor JD Martin! I would love to have a Debate with JD on Purgatory if he is open to it! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Please reach out to me on FB messenger. We can talk about it.
Praise God for you brother
@Spartan 300 🤣 Catholics are technically the only true Christian. So you're either Catholic or nonChristian
@Spartan 300 I've been devoting my life to discussing these things lol of course I'd love to discuss them with you
@Spartan 300 the Catholic Church teaches salvation by Grace alone, not faith alone. It's not a works based religion. That's a very common misconceptions by many of the thousands of protestant denominations
I was born in a Roman catholic family, studied the bible under a protestants theologian, now i don't associate with any division. My religion is bring people to Christ.
Christ is the savior. Rest on him alone!
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 yes Jesus is my Lord, my saviour.
Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Amen to that. I do think the local church is important though.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 i do go to rc church because its near by, but i am no very fond of traditions, except for sermon and bible quiz which is good. Regarding protestant churches, i have been many times, their sermon i love but they should also give more emphasis on topics like repentance which they hesitate on preaching. Repentance is one of my favourite topics because i was a drug addict and reading the four gospel changed my life, today i am 13 years away from drugs after know how beautiful our Lord Jesus is in his nature.
I don't go to Churches who believes Jesus is not God. For me Jesus is my Love and my only Love.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 Yes Church is important, and i love having fellowship who can share the gospel and the love of Christ. But most christian like to speak about wordly affair, politics etc.
His back handed insult to catholics’s belief in the magisterium did not go unnoticed by me
It would be interesting to hear a dialogue with Pastor Martin and Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin.
Pride has taken over Sam.
You guys are funny 😄
The only reason why this didn't turn into an argument is that JD knew how to deal with him. Well done, JD.
it's because Sam was patient.
@@user-nu3sd7zb2j are you one of those people who begs Sam not to block them and then praises him to feed his ego when he spares you?
Sam, patient? Lol
@@p4pdestined8 calm down. Your narcissism is showing.
@@user-nu3sd7zb2j sounds like Sam too. Also, I don't think you know what a narcissist is; if you did, you wouldn't have made that comment.
@@p4pdestined8 I do. It's very telling.
A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The Church became divided, books were removed, thousands of people made a God in the image that felt good to them. It is written if they have eyes Lord let them see!
Salvation is by faith alone no need for water baptism or Jewish traditions.
Excellent excellent excellent discussion JD. Sadly Sammy just thinks he is always correcting people who differ from him. I listened to the whole discussion which Sam flip flops 🩴 from place to place, cutting you off, and desperately trying to not allow context to be seen. I look forward to talking with you sometime.
35:30 I'd have to disagree with Sam that faith is a work. The context is on the heels of the feeding of the 5000. Jesus tells them that they are only there because they were fed a meal but that they should labor for the food which does not perish, in other words Jesus is the true bread of life and to look to him for eternal life. Then they ask what works they should do, Jesus answers that the work that God requires is faith in him. It's a play on words because to the Jewish ear, they would have equated works with things that they need to do to please God. Jesus was taking their idea of works and turning it on its head by saying God wants you to believe in me. Faith comes empty handed, offering nothing because our "works" are as filthy rags. Faith is trust, not a thing that is done. Faith leads to good works but it is not a work.
Pastor Martin, so sorry to bother you again! I am a Catholic Christian. Would you possibly be interested in a debate on Purgatory? I wasn't able yet to reach you on FB messenger! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
You weren’t able to find me on FB messenger? Do you not have FB?
Salvation is to ‘believe’ and through faith. Rom 10:9-10, and Eph 2:8-9. Belief is a verb (John 3:16), faith is a noun (Heb 11)
JD I think your points would have been MORE effective if Sam would have stuck to the issue/topics at hand. He would ask you one question, then you would start to address the question, then he would stop you before you could explain answer and then ask you a different question. Like spider veins spreading all over the place. I think a moderator would be better next time or at least give you 1 minute to layout your answers . @Exploring Theology Channel
I do think a moderator may be helpful for future debates I have on the channel. Someone else recently said that as well.
Information is in the details, Sam is breaking it up as he talks to prove where he is wrong. When we make a decision that something is wrong, we have many reasons to support our belief and sometimes it is because we reject something in the earlier days which could be the mistake of ignorance or rebellion.
@exploring theology channel
Brother Martin, I can't believe how rude Sam was being to you at so many points. When you simply asked him if he was a monotheist, he accused you of attacking him. How ironic. Brother, you showed respect, gentleness and patience and this was pleasing to God. God bless!
Thank you so much for your kind comment. May the Lord help us all grow in grace.
This is healthy debate, good enough for me but not perfect like I wanted.
Wow, Sam was being very gracious and patient here. With opponent that keeps circling like this, usually he won't last long with Sam.
you are delusional, Sam is brillient but a prideful, arrogant very disrespectful, ass
"Faith is a work, John 6:29." - Sam Shamoun
I was really have a hard time listening to this since Sam was behaving in such bad faith, but once he said that, I'm out. That's an egregious exegetical error. That's most certainly not what that verse is saying and Romans 4 makes it clear that faith is not a work. In fact, the entire New Testament contrasts faith and works, so how you could believe that faith is a work is mind boggling to me.
I appreciated your patience JD. It exceeded mine and I was just listening to it.
Faith absolutely in itself is a work. Faith is an action word. Faith requires you to move your lips Romans 10:9. Moving your lips is a work.
Christ be with you
Rom 4 speaks of works of the Law, not good works.
It speaks of the circumcision of Abraham, and King David's forgiveness without animal sacrifice.
St Paul talks of the promise to Abraham that came by it faith.
This promise was full we are told by God was fulfilled because he Obeyed God (Gen 26:4-5)
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 yep, that's because we are now saved by faith alone. However we are also not by the works of the law Moses either. But rather the works of the law of Christ. We certainly must keep the law of Christ or we are not saved.
@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha
Christ be with you
No we are saved by Gods Grace, his forgiveness of our sin
there is no such thing as Faith alone especially if we must keep the Law of Christ.
do you now what the Law of Christ is?
Can you define what faith in Jesus Christ is?
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 absolutely the law of Christ is Jesus's commandments he gave while on earth with us. Baptism, euachrist, charity etc.
Faith is the belief in and obedience to Jesus. But it also includes Baptism and confession. Faith in itself is an action word, a work.
This is a classic example of how debates about “theology” most often become debates about “methodology.” When one person is quoting the scripture and the other is quoting church fathers and creeds, you talk past each other.
The churchfathers describe the meaning of the teachings of christ
@@IstovMusic why go to a fallible source instead of the direct teachings of scripture. How hard is it to understand "unless you believe I AM you will die in your sins?"
@@PeopleoftheFreeGift The church fathers told us how to understand the bible correctly and believe me they understood it way better than anyone in our time
@@PeopleoftheFreeGiftbecause they understood scriptures better than a person born 1500 plus years later
@@PeopleoftheFreeGiftThe Church Fathers were the ones who organized the Bible. There was a lot of texts which claimed to be from the Apostles and these Church Fathers were the ones who brought all the books together. The Church and Church Fathers came before the Bible. You need to read into history of the Church. May God bless you. You can’t divorce the Church from the Bible.
I don’t get it how he doesn’t see himself how contradictory is his words . The pastor
Just a small correction. Orthodox believe that when the Patriarch of Rome speaks from the chair of peter and anoucnes the result of a ecumenical council then it is infaliable. However, the pope doesn't call a council with the other patriarch, and instead speaks from the chair of peter. Orthodox will accept the Patriarch of Rome (the pope) if he re-enters communion with the Church of the East
Orthodox don’t believe the pope ‘speaks from the chair of Peter’. And we definitely don’t believe the Pope is who announces an ecumenical councils. None of what you said is accurate.
It'd be nice if Sam let jd talk
I don't believe that without faith you would want to get baptized, you need faith to take that step. When I was baptized, I went to church believing that Jesus is the one and only God and I had faith that the things I heard about him were true. I also heard that being baptized was my way of showing Jesus that I truly believe. I'm just a regular guy, a child of the Almighty God who is trying to learn. God bless you both and thank you for teaching people what a disagreement should look like.
Well, yeah..sure, how about those people with psychological disabilities from birth (Ex. Autism)?
If faith is "religiously" required to enter the kingdom, how do people with psychological disabilities since birth get baptized?
Baptism is one thing. Baptism in the catholic sense is Christ giving authority to be PART of the kingdom, and personal FAITH is not YET a requirement, thus, the baptism of infants.
After baptism, we in the Catholic church have "CONFIRMATION", that's the time when your "faith" is required so, then you can enjoy His body, in the Eucharist.
And your task doesn't end there, your faith needs to persevere until the end.
Christ, by His sacrifice already redeemed ALL MEN past, present and future--- but for the present, Christ's sacrifice is our TICKET, now we need to go to the BALL.
How do we get to the ball (heaven) miles and miles away from our house?
We need to save money, take a bath, go to the airport/terminal/pier, journey to the destination with food and water, also, the outfit for the ball is required, extra money for some miscellaneous and just make sure to be in time before the ball starts. And let me remind you that the "TICKET" for the ball is so expensive that all ur effort to go to the ball would mean "NOTHING". But, u need to get to the ball of ur own doing (FREEWILL = FAITH+WORKS)
All those efforts u did for making it in time for the ball are parallel to BAPTISM, CONFIRMATION, EUCHARIST, ALL THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS, THE ROSARY, GUIDANCE OF THE CHURCH..., and ur able to do those things because God through the Holy Spirit provided everthing you need for the journey (GRACE), all u need to do is use those things on the journey.
We have a different view on baptism. Imagine your son walking across the street on his own at 2 years old? Do you let him cross the street on his own or do you hold his hand? Same
Thing with Christianity for the Eastern Orthodox faith. We love our children so much that we baptize them to wash away their sin. At that point they are saved… but then in life God has allowed the devil to roam the earth. The devil works very hard to tempt us to screw up and fall off track. By falling into sin, we become aware of our sin, repent and reach to the Bible and church to grow closer to God. I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. We say that we will be saved because at the end god is the most merciful. We get to choose whether we want to go with him or not. If we choose not then we will face eternal hell.
The end where we have a choice is the second coming the final judgment
Look where he is now.. ? Still confused
He seems to believe that 100's of early church leaders, the best of the best, got it wrong, Polycarp elaborates in such a way that it has not been disputed for ~2k years. Christ got baptized, it's a commandment in the Gospels & Epistles. My question is how much water is needed, what if we are in a desert?
Thanks Sam. You are so good! You really show the shallowness of some of these so called Pastors, who, because they went to bible school for four years, think they can deconstruct and reconstruct Christianity. Your points were biblical while his were subjective new age arguments- little from the Bible.
God has gifted you. Keeping using it to teach all.
JD showed a lot of patience and grace with Sam. Sam has developed some strange notions and the more he gives into catholic fathers he will degenerate further. The whole argument about someone near faith dying was a waste of time. JD was correct, you either believe or you don’t and Sam even quoted the verse in Hebrews that judgement comes at death by appointment of God. Genesis 3 says that God’s Spirit will not always strive with man and if the guy dies before faith he is still under cndemnation. And Sam kept going down rabbit holes. He is contentious for no reason other than to argue. He dominated the time with constant ramblings that led to nowhere. I should have known he was going to do that when he continually kept repeating that he was unlearned about Assyrian Orthodoxy, yet had converted to it. Who does that?
You will be called names like "son of the devil", because of your JW pic. LOL
Debate him then if you're so confident you know more than Sam.
Hi Sam I truly appreciate your journey. The best way to explain. The Catholic Church is, it is like an umbrella and underneath the umbrella are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Assyrian Catholic Church, Coptic Catholic Church etc.. they are all part of the One Catholic Church. All hold all of the beliefs of the One Catholic Church this is why we can call Her One.
Predestination is the topic that they avoid. How can we call him ABBA . If we don't know him as our heavenly father and we are his adopted sons
Always on a journey and never arriving. You've supposedly been a Christian for years Mr Shamoun, even got to the extent of being a public debater and yet no firm convictions on the basic matter of faith and salvation? All the while you believed you were saved by faith alone, does that mean that you weren't really saved then? Did you just get saved recently on learning that salvation isn't by faith alone?
Well, not to be unnecessarily unkind, but way back in the days when I got introduced to your debates Mr Shamoun, I always cringed at the how easily you insulted and threw jabs at your opponents...how you easily got personal and rancorous. I couldn't fathom that a genuine Christian could be doing that, even to atheists and Satanists. I'm kinda not too surprised at your drift. I pray you drop anchor as soon as possible, so that your journey doesn't arrive you at athesim
Great comment. God bless NGN!
I thought this was a discussion and not a debate?
This was not a debate. The guy is not equipped enough to debate Sam. Sam went graciously with him.
@@bewitchedprophetofislam9048Lol fanboys
I need to say something, he says in response to why his interpretation is better "I have to stand before God and be judged for my own beliefs" that's not totally wrong but does he not know the scriptures command us to deferre to THE CHURCH on matters of doctrine? He will be held much more guilty for knowing the scriptures which teach this and rejecting the authority of the church than if his personal bishop got a small thing wrong nd he followed him. The new testament says THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH, not your own personal interpretation.
I am praying for you sam and will always do.
35:00 Faith isn't a work, it's a gift.
Faith without work is dead Bruh
@@dreamers1782 Truth Faith brings forth works, you don't have a correct understanding of that verse."God has allotted to each [his own] measure of faith" (Romans 12:3) Every good and perfect gift comes from him.
@@demontejohnson4102 Romans 12:3
[3]For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
@@dreamers1782 amen. That just proves my point again. God has “dealt” you a measure of faith. He gave it to you. It’s a gift
@@demontejohnson4102 Faith without work is dead, there fore you work amount on your faith was being measured by Lord. Example:- A new Christians just knew Faith and work on it , the New Christian had only one faith to be measure, Old Christians, had done multiple task for his faith and he work for it and was measured by numbers of his faith
Sam is a good example of what happens when someone doesn't go to church and be part of a Christian community and sit under a shepherd/pastor. Someone who goes out into the woods with their Bible (and in his case random roman catholicism and eastern orthodoxy traditions) and just starts deciding based on their random feelings what is right and what is wrong. You end up with a random assortment of various beliefs that go across various traditions and in the end you really don't know what is truth and what is the invention of man. There is no doubt Sam is well read, but he has no guidance. He considers himself the ultimate authority and his beliefs appear to change based on whoever he is trying to impress at the current time. He ultimately is a slave to his subscriber count and his ego is what ultimately drives him. Go and do research on this man and you will see how angry he is, how badly he treats former friends and people he interacts with, how his marriage turned out, and so on. If you disagree with him and state it, the amount of name calling that will follow is intense. Sam talks about faith, but he doesn't know what faith is. He reads definitions in a book from various traditions and decides what suits him best. Five years from now, it is likely his definition will have changed again.
Does he make a living just sitting in the apartment doing live streams?
Thank you. You're attacking Sam without any facts smarter and deeper than the Mohammedans and other filthy heretics. With you guys, Christianity will grow much faster. Bravo 👏
Isn’t Protestant in the same boat by leaving Catholic Church and creating their own authorities and own interpretations of the Bible?
@@ar2ro969 In all honesty, you have to admit it’s pretty bad.
You are ignorant of what the apostolic churches are teaching, came on the 16th century later and claim you have the truth which actually you dont have.
How would you describe yourself as a believer? To my recollection, you've answered to, hearted ♥, or otherwise given no objection to, the titles: professing Calvanist, Berean Man, Baptist. Or you'll say, "I do attend a reformed church." This isn't sarcasm, I just want to be Jesus-certain of where I'm subbing.
I ask this at my risk, bc since the "What is Baptism of Fire" broadcast (I was the lone female participant), I don't get replies. If the other supporters haven't either--then there's no double standard.
In Christ. 🙏 ✝️ 🙏
Alrighty; backlisting answers all the questions. Perhaps too much "Thanks Lisa," during that live.
In Christ, Blessings to you and yours; and may only the Spirit of God direct, reform, and provide discernment in your walk. 🙏
Literally 1:02:23 in and the debate about “faith alone” still hasn’t started.
Sam gets rattled WAY too easily.....he doesn't know how to have a calm, rational discussion
We are Saved by Grace through Faith Alone PERIOD!
What I believe what Sam was arguing is that FAITH also encompasses a FAITHFUL ACTION according to what the Bible and the early Christians taught.
@@JoseRodriguez-dw9dv Newsflash: there is no "Faithful Action" ANYWHERE in Scripture!
Indeed, "for it is with your HEART that you BELIEVE (Faith) and are JUSTIFIED"....PERIOD--Nothing More--Nothing-Less!!!
@@cassandragarcia5548
I was merely trying my best to clarify Sam's point in this argument of what scripture and church fathers meant by Faith.
I took a while to respond sorry. Here are some scriptures on faithfulness (faithful action) in scripture that you couldn't find.
Matthew 24:45-50
Luke 12:42
1 Corinthians 4:2
Hebrews 3:5
Take time to look into this video if you can. Lengthy but I'd rather you get context and hope it's a blessing.
czcams.com/users/liveBGud75GGm3w?si=CJdY57gV6t2os39U
Is faith a one off Faith i.e Past tense? No, it's a continued walk. OSAS has no eternal security, it's a time will tell doctrine. Just look at 1 Timothy 1:4. They were never saved to begin with? No, not true. They Departed from "THE FAITH"
@@cassandragarcia5548Is faith a one off Faith i.e Past tense? No, it's a continued walk. OSAS has no eternal security, it's a time will tell doctrine. Just look at 1 Timothy 1:4. They were never saved to begin with? No, not true. They Departed from "THE FAITH"
There way too many Pastors out here that’s super immature and lack the discernment in doctrine
If you don’t believe salvation is by faith alone you are not saved!
This was brutal to watch. Sam ran circles around pastor Martin both theologically and philosophically.
Initially, I really had a very high opinion of Sam, his knowledge of the Word of God, etc. However, in a very short time watching his videos, I have lost the desire to watch his videos or debates. It seems that Sam has a serious issue with impulsiveness and anger, and it's hard for him to stand corrected. He reminds me of one of my Christian brothers back in the US, who despite his zeal for the Lord has allowed his testimony to be diminished by the same behavior. What really ticks me off, is the fact that Sam hates when he's interrupted, or when someone is trying to talk over him, yet he does the same and that 10x worse.
@@mr.jollybear5180 true. I stopped watching him as well. He acknowledges that he has this issue of bad temper and anger seemingly every stream, but does absolutely nothing about it.
My God, Sam is such a lion of the faith. May God lead hin towards the one true, and apostolic, Catholic church
@1:12:00 it is not either/ or, its both/and, faith AND action
Sam refused to give mutual respect to the younger debater and spoke condescendingly. This may appear to be strength but I see it as weakness. The younger won in my opinion.
Say you're protestant without saying you're protestant
It wouldn't surprise me if Sam Shamoun became a Muslim.
😂
I doubt he will ever become a Muslim...however, one requires discernment when listening to his anti-Protestant talks.
@@ephesians6124 sham shamoun is a Muslim destroyer