This scene is really a more elegant way of expressing the Shakespeare quote, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Simplicity probably makes for easier remembering but I think full expression in a case like this is just more beautiful on the whole.
7 years late to comment, but for me it is saying the exact opposite. Without fantasy, then life would just be arbitrary and people can decide what is good or bad, after all as death said, there is no morality. With fantasy, morality becomes real, I guess more technically we would call this vaguely something like collective unconscious or logic of ideals. Only then when there's belief, it cannot be simply reason. Believe in the me that believes in the you that believes in me and such.
Your beliefs become your thoughts, Your thoughts become your words, Your words become your actions, Your actions become your habits, Your habits become your values, Your values become your destiny.
I love Discworld so much ... So much to laugh at, so many quiet truths mixed in and so many good characters to feel with them ... And then I want to kick myself for starting with Discworld only last month, thinking it was stupid. Really, what was wrong with me? These are actually the best books I've ever read! Terry Pratchett is a genius ... :)
How very precisely said, and the punchline is how else can they become... Without these little lies for practice, how is it possible for men to believe the big lies in such a thing as truth, justice, etc... And the fact that one has to make that.
My guess: Because they embody "flaws"... Elves, Angels, and God are supposed to be "ideal" or "perfect" in various ways and you cannot be ideal or perfect without hitting people over the head about it. You cannot argue with an Elf, because s/he has seen so much of history that s/he can back up all of his/her arguments with hours of explanations for why they are right and you are wrong, thus we also cannot relate to Elves because Elves know so vastly much more than we can ever even hope to learn during the course of our short lives (in fact, we may even resentment the Elf since no-one likes feeling/being treated like an ignorant child at all times). You cannot criticize an Angel's actions because an Angel is supposedly righteous, thus we also cannot relate to an Angel because an Angel is always righteous, no matter what it does, and we know that we cannot be righteous all the time (once again, we may even grow to resent the Angel for acting like it knows what's best at all times, even when what it does is anything but righteous from a human pov). You cannot admonish God because he is supposed to be the ones who writes the rules according to which things like "right" and "wrong" are defined, thus we also cannot relate to him because God is either, depending on your pov, a perfect being that can do no wrong and whose ways are unfathomable to us limited mortals who can only put our trust in him and that he does what is best for us, OR an absolute authoritarian completely unworthy of worship whose "greatness" only emphasizes how utterly monsterous and far removed from any good human qualities he is. Death, however, is the flaw of life: It ends. Consequently, Death is something/someone we all must deal with sooner or later and, despite the fact that most of us are afraid to die, I believe most of us feel better thinking of Death as not a scary or bad thing/person, but rather as someone/something that can relate to us and our fleeting lives and bring us some peace of mind. (I think the fact that all religions are basically about easing people's fear of dying lends some crendance to my hypothesis.) And as for the Devil? Well, he often embodies both flaws and rebellion, and since we're all flawed in some way or another, we can sympathize with him. His rebellion is also something a lot of us can relate to as we all wish to be our own masters and have our own free will and him refusing God's totaliarian authoritarianism is seen by many as an expression of that freedom and quest for free will.
+GrahamChapman It's a long time, years, that I don't log to like or comment anything... but, man! I take my hat off to you. What a fine, well thought and well written exposition!
maxregware It's almost kinda weird how often I recieve praise for my ramblings on CZcams... And yet, despite how often it has happened, I still do not quite know how to reply to such praise. In hindsight, I probably could've made that wall of text a bit shorter by putting it this way: Elves, Angels and God are doomed to come across as less interesting because they are meant to be ideal or perfect. But since we, who write about them, are not perfect, they cannot really be perfect, either. Thus the illusion of their perfection falls apart... Ideal and/or perfect beings are essentially doomed to be unable to live up to their hype. Either because their supposed perfection simply makes them Mary Sue characters OR because neither the world, nor we who live in it and make up these ideal and perfect beings, are perfect... Frankly speaking, there's no room for perfect beings in an imperfect world. Which is probably why we invent them in the first place: Because only in an imperfect world with no perfections would imperfect beings need to imagine the perfect beings being real... But, yeah, anyway, Death and the Devil do not have the burden that Elves, Angels and God do since they represent flaws. And since they are flawed, they can understand and relate to us, and we can understand and relate to them, in turn... Being flawed really is wonderful that way, isn't it? It allows us to see things that are different and recognise things that are similar to ourselves within that which is different... In my eyes, being imperfect truly is to be a small piece of something much greater than estranged, simple, boring and inhuman perfection. (Which is a funny thing of me to say, because I'm an obsessively compulsive perfectionist. It's, ironically, yet another one of my dear flaws.)
Jesus Christ, I just think he's cool because he's an intelligent well thought out character, he has a sense of humor, and his voice actor is great. I couldn't care less whether they are a perfect or flawless being. I will admit though that Legolas' get on my nerves because they're so high and mighty on themselves. I think we like them because they're more "human" than anything else. We can relate to them.
Death is always the most philosophical character. Terry Pratchett did not have to invent these ideas, (because for most people, philosophical ideas are thought to be "common sense", which is true, in a way), but he put it in a way people understand and emotionally experience, that's his genius.
I just read a part in 'the light fantastic' where he was so self aware of himself and the description of Herenna the Henna-Haired Harridan. It was the most enjoyable and witty thing i've ever read.
Justice doesn't exist. Justice is a concept, an idea. In the strict sense of the word exist, it doesn't exist. All over the world, people define it as somethign different. What is right to me, may not be right to you. "You act as if there's some ideal order in the world" ;)
There is no 'choice' that is kinda also the point. What we believe we choose in desperation, and as such there is no rational thought behind what we believe. It becomes a necessity in belief. Finding truth is science, religion, etc, is pointless to a skepticist, the key is picking or maybe rather getting served your own poison. Belief makes it 'real'. The need to believe is bigger than the desire to pick the belief, and besides, what belief is truely the 'right' one.
Terry Pratchett's Discworld should be a foundation of modern education. It's much more reliable than religon for a start Pratchett's books have taut me so much of the human condition, the man is a genius.
@Sonetodecirene Gravity is an aspect of the simulation that we experience. Keep that in mind, even the laws of nature are just as much a creation of the mind as our fantasies.
Indeed... and realizing I'm replying to a 3 year old post, I still wish to leave another quote befitting the sentiment: "Careless realism costs souls." Nightwish - Song Of Myself, pt. 4 - Love
just because something isn't empirical doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true; especially the ones that can be logically proven to exist. we know that justice exists because all over the world humanity defines things as unjust without checking with each other to confirm it. love is not an atom; it has no weight but it does exist just as hate exists. and without a moral law [which does exist] who is to say that racism or rape is wrong? otherwise: "that's like just your opinion man"
You think so? Then take the human brain and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and show me one atom of imagination, one molecule of creativity.
CREATION, CREATE, CREATIVITY, CREATOR. "You are Gods" - Jesus of Nazareth "As you think, so will you be and so you will create the world" - Siddartha Gautama
@darrenfromworksop i will agree that hes a genius, but his musings on the human nature are just obvious if you're willing to open your mind and harden you heart to the almost morbidly depressing truth,
@southsydney But it's all lies, and the lie that you can bring yourself to believe to be a truth, is the most deceptive lie of all. And ultimately, the joke will be on you.
One thing I never understand, is how people can suggest that they don't abide by moral law. Everyone does. It's human nature. If you take something from a child, it will consider that's it's not fair.
it's an interesting thought, but nothing more, by that measure what was there before there were humans? it's ultimately nihilistic, truth is beyond you, and also within you.
There was something scientific. As Death said, "A mere ball of gas would have illuminated the world". That we, the humans, gave this ball of gas the name sun and 100s of stories connecting to it (Ra wandering over the sun, the story of the 10 suns in China etc.) makes us humans. It is not nihilistic. Quite the opposite. Yes, it is said "There is no natural order, only chaos", but it is also said "We are humans because we bring order into this chaos." Doctor Who said something similar, "Humans are so imaginative. The universe is chaotic, but the humans give some dates meaning with birthdays and christmas."
you are getting philosophical there. but how is imagination not floating around us? people imagine according to their surrounding contexts, without context it won't occur. A person forever living in darkness is not going to imagine being in light, since there is no idea of light stored in his brain. therefore, imagination can be seen as non-physical but existing (it's existence depends on our physical world).
This scene is really a more elegant way of expressing the Shakespeare quote, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Simplicity probably makes for easier remembering but I think full expression in a case like this is just more beautiful on the whole.
7 years late to comment, but for me it is saying the exact opposite. Without fantasy, then life would just be arbitrary and people can decide what is good or bad, after all as death said, there is no morality. With fantasy, morality becomes real, I guess more technically we would call this vaguely something like collective unconscious or logic of ideals. Only then when there's belief, it cannot be simply reason. Believe in the me that believes in the you that believes in me and such.
@@lukecronquist6003 But that's not the exact opposite. That's exactly what I said.
@@Jotari Ah, right, I guess I interpreted the quote backwards heh. Good ole ambiguity of language.
Truest words.
we all are in the same boat...
once we realize this, more precious are those candles which defy the darkness...
This is sort of the positive parallel to Vonnegut's line "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.
Terry Pratchett, my favorite philosopher. RIP
I love Discworld so much ... So much to laugh at, so many quiet truths mixed in and so many good characters to feel with them ...
And then I want to kick myself for starting with Discworld only last month, thinking it was stupid. Really, what was wrong with me? These are actually the best books I've ever read! Terry Pratchett is a genius ... :)
How very precisely said, and the punchline is how else can they become... Without these little lies for practice, how is it possible for men to believe the big lies in such a thing as truth, justice, etc... And the fact that one has to make that.
This scene gave me more philosophical growth than a lot of religion and classic novels.
Probably the wisest words ever spoken...
Algfader Definately among them.
Not even close.
In any literature why is Death or the Devil the more interesting characters?
My guess: Because they embody "flaws"... Elves, Angels, and God are supposed to be "ideal" or "perfect" in various ways and you cannot be ideal or perfect without hitting people over the head about it. You cannot argue with an Elf, because s/he has seen so much of history that s/he can back up all of his/her arguments with hours of explanations for why they are right and you are wrong, thus we also cannot relate to Elves because Elves know so vastly much more than we can ever even hope to learn during the course of our short lives (in fact, we may even resentment the Elf since no-one likes feeling/being treated like an ignorant child at all times). You cannot criticize an Angel's actions because an Angel is supposedly righteous, thus we also cannot relate to an Angel because an Angel is always righteous, no matter what it does, and we know that we cannot be righteous all the time (once again, we may even grow to resent the Angel for acting like it knows what's best at all times, even when what it does is anything but righteous from a human pov). You cannot admonish God because he is supposed to be the ones who writes the rules according to which things like "right" and "wrong" are defined, thus we also cannot relate to him because God is either, depending on your pov, a perfect being that can do no wrong and whose ways are unfathomable to us limited mortals who can only put our trust in him and that he does what is best for us, OR an absolute authoritarian completely unworthy of worship whose "greatness" only emphasizes how utterly monsterous and far removed from any good human qualities he is.
Death, however, is the flaw of life: It ends. Consequently, Death is something/someone we all must deal with sooner or later and, despite the fact that most of us are afraid to die, I believe most of us feel better thinking of Death as not a scary or bad thing/person, but rather as someone/something that can relate to us and our fleeting lives and bring us some peace of mind. (I think the fact that all religions are basically about easing people's fear of dying lends some crendance to my hypothesis.) And as for the Devil? Well, he often embodies both flaws and rebellion, and since we're all flawed in some way or another, we can sympathize with him. His rebellion is also something a lot of us can relate to as we all wish to be our own masters and have our own free will and him refusing God's totaliarian authoritarianism is seen by many as an expression of that freedom and quest for free will.
+GrahamChapman It's a long time, years, that I don't log to like or comment anything... but, man! I take my hat off to you. What a fine, well thought and well written exposition!
maxregware
It's almost kinda weird how often I recieve praise for my ramblings on CZcams... And yet, despite how often it has happened, I still do not quite know how to reply to such praise.
In hindsight, I probably could've made that wall of text a bit shorter by putting it this way: Elves, Angels and God are doomed to come across as less interesting because they are meant to be ideal or perfect. But since we, who write about them, are not perfect, they cannot really be perfect, either. Thus the illusion of their perfection falls apart... Ideal and/or perfect beings are essentially doomed to be unable to live up to their hype. Either because their supposed perfection simply makes them Mary Sue characters OR because neither the world, nor we who live in it and make up these ideal and perfect beings, are perfect... Frankly speaking, there's no room for perfect beings in an imperfect world. Which is probably why we invent them in the first place: Because only in an imperfect world with no perfections would imperfect beings need to imagine the perfect beings being real...
But, yeah, anyway, Death and the Devil do not have the burden that Elves, Angels and God do since they represent flaws. And since they are flawed, they can understand and relate to us, and we can understand and relate to them, in turn... Being flawed really is wonderful that way, isn't it? It allows us to see things that are different and recognise things that are similar to ourselves within that which is different... In my eyes, being imperfect truly is to be a small piece of something much greater than estranged, simple, boring and inhuman perfection. (Which is a funny thing of me to say, because I'm an obsessively compulsive perfectionist. It's, ironically, yet another one of my dear flaws.)
Jesus Christ, I just think he's cool because he's an intelligent well thought out character, he has a sense of humor, and his voice actor is great. I couldn't care less whether they are a perfect or flawless being. I will admit though that Legolas' get on my nerves because they're so high and mighty on themselves. I think we like them because they're more "human" than anything else. We can relate to them.
Death is always the most philosophical character. Terry Pratchett did not have to invent these ideas, (because for most people, philosophical ideas are thought to be "common sense", which is true, in a way), but he put it in a way people understand and emotionally experience, that's his genius.
I just read a part in 'the light fantastic' where he was so self aware of himself and the description of Herenna the Henna-Haired Harridan. It was the most enjoyable and witty thing i've ever read.
what page was that on again?
Death is the teacher of so much wisdom
He also teaches his lesson after you have gone through the test.
Best grandfather EVER
Justice doesn't exist. Justice is a concept, an idea. In the strict sense of the word exist, it doesn't exist.
All over the world, people define it as somethign different. What is right to me, may not be right to you. "You act as if there's some ideal order in the world" ;)
But if we do not believe that, then how could it ever become?
I don't know if I agree entirely with this. I would say that Mercy, justice and compassion are more inventions than lies.
Rather than "lies" they're not tangible things, ergo, "not real". So something that isn't real can be considered a lie to what is reality, in a way.
Oh my. I finally get it. Thank you.
There is no 'choice' that is kinda also the point. What we believe we choose in desperation, and as such there is no rational thought behind what we believe. It becomes a necessity in belief. Finding truth is science, religion, etc, is pointless to a skepticist, the key is picking or maybe rather getting served your own poison. Belief makes it 'real'. The need to believe is bigger than the desire to pick the belief, and besides, what belief is truely the 'right' one.
Terry Pratchett's Discworld should be a foundation of modern education.
It's much more reliable than religon for a start
Pratchett's books have taut me so much of the human condition, the man is a genius.
RIP Ian Richardson.
More relevant than ever.
@Sonetodecirene
Gravity is an aspect of the simulation that we experience. Keep that in mind, even the laws of nature are just as much a creation of the mind as our fantasies.
"imagination rules the world" Napoleon
I'm fairly certain it's a quote from the series itself.
:') Do you think this could apply to something like an afterlife? I'd like to think so ❤️
*inception sound*
@phoenixrisinghigh Often it takes a genius to see the things that are right in front of them.
to those who are seeing this scene for the first time. death is not the hogfather. (victim.)
To me this means that we all need a bit of fantasy and imagination in our lives or things would seem dull and pointless.
Indeed... and realizing I'm replying to a 3 year old post, I still wish to leave another quote befitting the sentiment:
"Careless realism costs souls." Nightwish - Song Of Myself, pt. 4 - Love
just because something isn't empirical doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true; especially the ones that can be logically proven to exist. we know that justice exists because all over the world humanity defines things as unjust without checking with each other to confirm it. love is not an atom; it has no weight but it does exist just as hate exists. and without a moral law [which does exist] who is to say that racism or rape is wrong? otherwise: "that's like just your opinion man"
very true ^^
wow deep.
the part were he admits to worriedly looking at the cover artist?
You think so? Then take the human brain and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and show me one atom of imagination, one molecule of creativity.
I don't reckon we need to be educating people anyway. it'd be more handy to teach them things.
apart from spelling 'taught' .
Well, but how are we supposed to choose the things we believe in, things to become? Do we leave it just to chance, ideologists and brainwashers?
I believe so yeah :)
Let the beliefs war begin!
@twdarkflame How is imagination "non-physical"?
@darrenfromworksop I'd add Frank Herbert's Dune, all six of them.
@twdarkflame Imagination is how we describe certain brain/body processes. It's not something invisible & immaterial, floating around next to us.
CREATION, CREATE, CREATIVITY, CREATOR.
"You are Gods" - Jesus of Nazareth
"As you think, so will you be and so you will create the world" - Siddartha Gautama
@darrenfromworksop i will agree that hes a genius, but his musings on the human nature are just obvious if you're willing to open your mind and harden you heart to the almost morbidly depressing truth,
Ah, yes. The Matrix. Classic.
@southsydney
But it's all lies, and the lie that you can bring yourself to believe to be a truth, is the most deceptive lie of all. And ultimately, the joke will be on you.
One thing I never understand, is how people can suggest that they don't abide by moral law. Everyone does. It's human nature. If you take something from a child, it will consider that's it's not fair.
Any last words?
it's an interesting thought, but nothing more, by that measure what was there before there were humans? it's ultimately nihilistic, truth is beyond you, and also within you.
There was something scientific. As Death said, "A mere ball of gas would have illuminated the world".
That we, the humans, gave this ball of gas the name sun and 100s of stories connecting to it (Ra wandering over the sun, the story of the 10 suns in China etc.) makes us humans.
It is not nihilistic. Quite the opposite. Yes, it is said "There is no natural order, only chaos", but it is also said "We are humans because we bring order into this chaos."
Doctor Who said something similar, "Humans are so imaginative. The universe is chaotic, but the humans give some dates meaning with birthdays and christmas."
you are getting philosophical there. but how is imagination not floating around us? people imagine according to their surrounding contexts, without context it won't occur. A person forever living in darkness is not going to imagine being in light, since there is no idea of light stored in his brain. therefore, imagination can be seen as non-physical but existing (it's existence depends on our physical world).
XDDD
I am the one who dislike this video.