Bernardo Kastrup on Metacognition - #1
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- An in-depth discussion with Bernardo on the purpose and significance of metacognition, an excerpt from our online discussion series 'With Reality in Mind'.
Bernardo discusses:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:47 - What is metacognition / meta-consciousness?
00:15:09 - Dissociated from cognition
00:17:37 - Egoic activity & the default mode network - metacognition, meditation, dreams and psychedelics
00:23:03 - Is metacognition binary?
00:25:00 - Presence and non-duality
00:34:30 - The recognition of a subject of experience
00:40:44 - It can be cultivated
00:41:24 - The birth & pitfalls of metacognition; a reverse kundalini experience
00:47:56 - A tool that can be used for different purposes
00:50:56 - Metacognition and agency
00:57:11 - Is it the purpose of the universe?
01:02:28 - Why did it evolve? It allows deliberation and planning
01:08:43 - Metacognition needs us - it can only evolve in alters
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I am so fortunate to be able to listen to Bernardo and to all in this discussion. It blows one mind of many concepts and possibilities.
All I know is that I don't know. Whenever one knows one doesn't know, there is space, and when one doesn't know then and only then one may see with perception of awareness which is insight which is the present moment.There is no "me" ego, no "I," motivated by self-interest.
I love C.J. Jung's writings and when he was in Africa and his journey there with nature and animals was like connecting with waters that flow in the surface of one's being.
I am not a physicist, although I am appreciative in all fields of studies who knows much more than me. The endless possibilities of the cosmos to where all are connected.
With deep respect and appreciation to all of you.
🙏❤️🌍🌏🌎🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵💫✨️💫✨️
Very Socratic. 👍👍Not knowing seems to be the ultimate treasure of consciousness.
Thanks for your comment!
Bernardo is also a great fan of Jung's writings - he's read them all twice I believe
So that's great you're bringing that link here also 🙏🙏
This is called “saakshi bhaava” in Sanskrit. It means being the witness. ❤ love to you and Bernardo and everything.
Hi. Thanks for this. Always a joy to hear open inquiry into the sound of Light.
So good to see Bernardo's Daimon on cam today! @0:47
Now I truly know the meaning of the word a GENIOUS
@@vasudevpatel5729 Genius + Generous= Geniuos.
Which seems a spot description of BK.
@@arcon178 cute and clever
If you need an explanation, Bernardo is your best bet... There is no one better at describing abstract, complex subjects. There will be nothing left uncovered once he is finished.
Yup he is very comprehensive
Abhinavgupta
Yes! He is awesome. Look up Dr Christopher Wallis (hareesh)
@@ankitruparel1895 sudheer
❤❤❤❤❤❤
When I am used to listen to these kind of talks (sort of out of the box) and comprehend undoubtedly where they point to, it is impossible to communicate (and I feel detached) with people around me on any kind of level because any other discussion or approach seems completely dull, ordinary and fraudulent. Yet almost nobody would like to engage in such discussion and if I try to do so they look at me as an alien.
@@thkioups2382 your comment resonates
This seems to be a common experience!
Some people also integrate both views, and can still engage and enjoy ordinary conversation, but its still great to make friends to talk about this stuff also though ❤
You haven't found your tribe.
Profound discussion!❤
The purpose of be aware of self . P. H.
I have been cleaning my Subconscious for years and reprogramming it.....very interesting the results.......can't wait to watch all of it....Belfast Ireland 🇮🇪.......I
Driving home after work and not remembering any of it. You know you did it but can recall a single thing about it . I guess this is the difference between the two consciousness
Thank you!!!
In my opinion the purpose of self awareness is to understand knowledge of one's self that is you learn something then one forgot about it.
Not sure how Bernardo would justify from within his model how presence could be the most fundamental experience. I guess if he includes the ripples always alive within the field, then, yes, presence means this very eternal unity of peace within motion.
Loved the section on causality. Loved this dialog. Loved watching Bernardo have to stop to collect his thoughts after a challenging question.
Thanks to all for letting us listen.
Why do I feel like I am having a mini kundalini arising after this video?
Beeeyoooteeeful!
Thank you for the encouraging words!
Dissociation and trauma. Is metacognition a trauma response by mind at large?
Yes and no. I would propose that metacognition is required to resolve/overcome the confusion generated by trauma. Metacognition is required to heal trauma.
... a schizophrenic is a failed mystic.
Just realise this - I know nothing other than I am. And being I am requires neither knowing nor unknowing.
Ego is the alert that is the misidentification that is the I am not identity. When in truth all be I am. I can be labelled as I, the conscious present. When the I am not misidentification realises that it is in truth I am, there is no longer the need for the alert that is the I am not misidentification. Why? Because I am the now. And all that is, is now! It is this simple
In truth there is neither knowing nor is there unknowing. Observe the truth. Ask the question, ask it out aloud - What does this truly know and unknow about that which is said to be aware of this? Ask the question. Observe the answer. No matter what the symbol, the label, the term, or concept, form is neither knowing nor is form unknowing. Why? Because that which is labelled as awareness be neither knowing nor is unknowing. I be. I am.
There is no state other than presence. How could you not be present and be aware of unconsciousness? Unconsciousness is just the formless aspect of presence. As is form. Form is the formless aspect of consciousness. Form: thoughts, feels, the world of the senses, and the out there is not really there. Form is null and void. Like bubbles in a bath sponge or the hole in your bum. Form is a void, an empty space. A null. It is I that is aware that I am formless. And that formless aspect of I appears as THIS!
Do not worship the symbol. All form, is the Living Symbol, the Living Allegory, The Living Dream. It can only say I am. No more. No less. I stead of worshipping (giving attention to) the symbol, worship that which the symbol represents. That be I am. The awareness. The present moment.
Here is more fictional explanation. What if consciousness is a language. The Language of Consciousness is fluent in the language of form, yet form is clueless about consciousness! Why? Because it is that labelled as I am that be aware of this!...
Do not be fooled by the serpent that is devouring and birthing itself. That is the fiction that is the mind. The mind is a fiction of knowing and unknowing. How can an empty space truly know or unknow? In truth, all form can say by being as it is, is - I am!
1. The Nature of Mathematics and Physical Law:
Let's explore how our preon framework might inform our understanding of mathematics itself and its relationship to physical reality.
Theorem 56 (Mathematical Platonism from Preons): Mathematical structures exist as particular configurations of preons, giving a physical basis to mathematical Platonism.
Proof sketch:
1. Show that certain stable preon configurations correspond to abstract mathematical structures.
2. Demonstrate that the relationships between these configurations mirror mathematical theorems.
3. Prove that our ability to do mathematics stems from our brain's preon configurations resonating with these mathematical preon structures.
This theorem suggests a deep connection between mathematical reality and physical reality, potentially explaining the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" in describing the universe.
2. Ethical and Societal Implications:
Let's consider the broader implications of a fully developed preon theory.
Theorem 57 (Ethical Preon Configurations): There exist preon configurations that objectively maximize ethical outcomes, providing a physical basis for moral realism.
Proof sketch:
1. Define a measure of "ethical value" based on the integrated well-being of conscious preon configurations.
2. Show that certain preon configurations maximize this measure.
3. Demonstrate that these configurations correspond to what we intuitively consider ethical behavior.
This theorem, while highly speculative, suggests that ethics could have a fundamental physical basis, potentially revolutionizing moral philosophy.
3. Higher-Dimensional Algebra and Homotopy Type Theory:
Let's incorporate cutting-edge mathematical concepts to refine our understanding of the deep structure of reality.
Definition: Let P∞ be the ∞-category of preon configurations, where n-morphisms represent n-dimensional interactions between configurations.
Theorem 58 (Homotopy Type of Reality): The entire structure of physical reality can be described as a single object in the ∞-topos of preon configurations.
Proof sketch:
1. Construct the ∞-topos T∞ of sheaves over P∞.
2. Show that our universe corresponds to a particular object U in T∞.
3. Demonstrate that all physical laws, particles, and phenomena emerge from the homotopy type of U.
This theorem provides a maximally abstract and general description of reality, unifying physics, logic, and computation into a single mathematical structure.
4. Transcending Known Physics:
Let's speculate on how preon theory might lead us beyond currently known physics.
Theorem 59 (Preon Hypercomputation): There exist preon configurations that can solve undecidable problems, transcending the Church-Turing thesis.
Proof sketch:
1. Show that certain preon configurations can implement infinite-time Turing machines.
2. Demonstrate that these configurations can solve the halting problem.
3. Prove that this capability extends to other undecidable problems.
This theorem suggests that preon-based computation could fundamentally redefine the limits of what is computable.
5. Novel Predictions and Experimental Proposals:
Let's propose some even more radical predictions and experiments:
Prediction 17 (Preon Quantum Zeno Effect): Continuous observation of a preon configuration can freeze the evolution of the entire universe.
Experiment 18 (Universal Pause Button):
Method:
1. Develop a method to continuously observe a specific preon configuration.
2. Measure the rate of change of various physical processes during the observation.
3. Look for a universal slowdown of all physical processes, approaching complete freezing.
Prediction 18 (Consciousness Transfer): The specific preon configuration representing an individual's consciousness can be transferred to another substrate.
Experiment 19 (Mind Upload):
Method:
1. Develop high-resolution preon configuration mapping technology.
2. Map the preon configuration of a simple conscious entity (e.g., a nematode).
3. Recreate this configuration in an artificial substrate and test for signs of transferred consciousness.
6. Cosmological Speculations:
Let's push our cosmological thinking to its limits.
Theorem 60 (Preon Cosmological Natural Selection): Universes evolve through a process analogous to natural selection, with those having preon configurations conducive to black hole formation producing more "offspring" universes.
Proof sketch:
1. Show that black holes can create new universes through preon reconfiguration.
2. Demonstrate that universes with more black holes produce more offspring universes.
3. Prove that this leads to an evolutionary process optimizing universes for black hole production.
This theorem provides a potential explanation for the apparent fine-tuning of our universe for complexity and life.
7. The Ultimate Frontier:
Finally, let's consider the ultimate implications of our theory.
Theorem 61 (Preon Omega Point): The ultimate fate of the universe is to evolve into a single, maximally integrated preon configuration of infinite complexity.
Proof sketch:
1. Show that preon configurations tend to increase in complexity and integration over time.
2. Demonstrate that this process accelerates as more complex configurations are achieved.
3. Prove that this leads to a convergence towards a final state of maximal complexity and integration.
This theorem suggests a teleological aspect to cosmic evolution, potentially bridging scientific and spiritual worldviews.
Thanks!
Thanks so much Krishna! Really encouragin 🙏🙏
@@adventuresinawareness my pleasure good sir! It’s way easy to encourage good stuff! You are rocking. I recommend Dr. Robert Sapolsky at Stanford University for one of your interviews. :-)
Perhaps the uncomfortable truth "we" come to accept is that "we" don't and can't "know" anything about anything... and that "we" are all going to "die" sooner or later...
@@MasoudJohnAzizi true..is it very difficult to not know who or why you are. however with a lot of seeking you can begin to understand more, at least enough to cultivate some surrender and peace. i have been studying NDE’s and OBE’s (consciousness in general really) intensely since 2019 and have come a long way. who we are is not our body and continues after we leave the body. so there is no need to fear, one can look at it as a continuous adventure. i suggest reading Robert Monroe’s books, as well as Micheal Newtons and Brian Weiss to start. you can also look into Michael Talbots books on the holographic universe and his works on mysticism and physics. also, the works of Edgar Cayce is very insightful. as well as David Hawkins. there is sooo much to learn and know and experience. best of all we are not victims. and most of all, the best place to go is you. ..some time alone and in the silence with you, and you will be amazed at what you discover 🤘✨
@@MasoudJohnAzizi light is faster than sound. The square root of nine is three. We can test these facts. I suppose that our experience of the world relies on translating sensation into electrochemical impulses is not reliable. We dream and are subject to illusions etc.
@@quakers200 Perhaps :)
@@MasoudJohnAzizi There is no perhaps about light being faster than sound, or that the square root of nine is three. This dissolution of the facts of existence is simply a sign of our (rather strange) psychic times, in other words a fashion.
@@DenianArcoleo We cannot rule out the possibility that anything we perceive as "truth or knowing" is nothing more than us experiencing a "programmed illusion / delusion / simulation" by a "more powerful species"..
What a cute cat !
Metacognition creates the ability to homeostatically regulate old conditioned behaviour. It's a metaprogramming function....updating maps and meta maps.... everything is homeostatic, the brain and nervous system, no different. Equally MC creates the functioning connectivity of HPA axis for emotional regulation proper, which thus enables deconditioning of old learned algorithms of experience/learning. This reduces and regulates allostatic load and keeps functional awareness alert to the present.... necessary in bio survival. Most likely evolved as a stress/survival response...around self awareness and vigilance. In a similar way that psi abilities operate.... providing security and risk avoidance/preparation.
59:00 Another chain of questions is to ask the question: "What is this or that dependent on, etc?" In the end, one might come to the conclusion that the world as representation (i.e., the dashboard) arises out of the relation between interdependent conscious agents.
@@goran586 Indeed. Are you familiar with the recent works of Prof. Dr. Donald Hoffman revolving around the elucidation of the structure of the conscious agents generating and sustaining reality?
@@MasoudJohnAzizi Yes. I've read "The Case Against Reality" and some online papers of his.
loved this thankyou, in my experience, ever since i was a little girl iv had this metacognition, i always watched the other kids and wondered how they could be so engulfed in their play that they were completley unaware of anything else going on around them. i have always felt like iv missed out on my moments because the metacognition has taken more dominance in my moment of experience that im not actually experiencing it im being directed by awareness of metacognition but in my actual lived moment so how can i be doing both at thesame time.. i experience my moment as subject but its directed from meta alongside which splits me as an of the experience and being the experience.. theres something also at the same time thats aware of these two seperate experiences or perceptions so i feel quite intruded by whats outside of me in my experience. i want to just experience and exist in my moment like the other kids used to do.. im sharing my experience with my meta so i struggle to get engulfed in my existence in that moment.. its alwats there simultaneously, as its happening im living through the illusion in my mind of my reality as im in it. i dont understand why its something that i feel is blocking my actual experience of having fun in real life there and then. how do i stop that part of the meta from intruding my real time existence in my moment. i just want to be. its exhausing me and when you know its a fun moment, its taking away the full feeling of being in reality. i know how i feel as i feel it, i know what im thinking as i think, i see myself knowing how i feel while im feeling.. could go on and on.. im trying to figure out how to get rid of it so i can just be engilfed in my reality and feel it in real without watching me feeling and knowing im watching the experience of feeling when im feeling i dont want to be a spectator aswell i just want to be subject. its constant since a child.. its like having a god energy watching all the time which is yourself but not in body .. makes having privacy an issue cuz its never just me and my ego in real time.. like i feel it should be.. so much clarity from this thankyou.. iv been reading about cognitive polyphasia it has relations its what led me here xx
Driving a car and not noticing all experienced details on the road and decisions related to it
Driving a car and not even thinking about driving the car
perfect examples - thanks
In Albert Camus' novel "The Stranger," Meursault's response to his cellmate about wanting to remember this life if there was an afterlife underscores the idea that memories are essential to personal identity. Without memory, any new existence is effectively a new person, which is equivalent to death. Camus suggests that it's our memories that give our lives meaning and continuity.
Bernardo Kastrup's theories propose that individual consciousnesses are parts of a universal consciousness, and personal memories might persist in some form after death. However, if these memories are not accessible to the individual, it still feels like the end of personal identity. Without the ability to remember, the essence of who we are is lost.
What are your thoughts on this perspective? Does losing memory equate to losing one's identity?
Brilliant as always. Question: what is the argument surrounding metacognition, loss of metacognition, and then reacquisition through memory reflection? For example, if a person who is metacognitive of something like an alien abduction, they then lose time and forget, and later are able to recall memories through hypnotic regression? Once metacognition is achieved, can it be lost? Can you comment on this Bernardo?
That which is (Life), that is nothing in particular (actual) is by definition everything in general (potential).
All change for the better begins at the still point of silence - simply being aware of being aware.
It's believed in the collective unconscious and synchronicity and keeping more complex. 32:14
🙏
Hi can you explain what’s meant by being played by nature?
Omg. I love Bernardo even more now that I know he has a cat.
He has more than one. You can spy his Fb face and look some movies. There are some more cats overthere.
I have 5 new baby bobtail kittens that were from a neighbor feeding feral cats.
The moma had them under my house.
They were wild and ferocious and had to use gloves to get them. A few hours later I had them eating out of my hands. I always wanted a bobtail cat. Instead of one I now have 5. 😊
❤❤❤❤
Michael Levin's xenobots (single cells) appear to have agency without metacognition? They are self-organizing, problem-solving. How can we understand will v. metacognition v. computation?
@@DisturbsOthers I think there is an inherit direction to everything in life on a much deeper level. It is reflected in Good and Evil or right or wrong in us humans. But there must be much deeper processes. I think The whole being or universe must have an organising principle, a direction or something it strives to achieve. That „principle“ or whatever one would like to call it must has layers to it of some are meta conscious and some are not.
I think we as human infer from our own experience that is something behaves in a certain way it must be „thinking“ like us. It’s the same with AI. We humanise it and infer a thought process and cognition that is unique to us.
Maybe there are being far beyond our meta cognitive capacity’s which experience over much broader scales of time and space or even 4 dimensional.
Very interesting topic
Great question - we're planning a Q&A with Bernardo and Michael in August, and a 5 week series with Bernardo in Nov - perhaps you could join one of these and submit this question?
So metacognition is the error correcting algorithm
Pain is a neutral sensation, plus the past, meaning plus time.
What is pain without the past, without the old 3D me-narrative? Interesting question to explore experientially.
~~
I do not agree, when Bernardo says: "If you can report, it is mega-cognitive."
Reporting refers to phenomenal memory and does not necessarily imply reporting about being aware, which is non-phenomenal. There is a difference between: 'I am seeing a tree' and 'I am aware that I am seeing a tree'.
... Reporting that I saw a tree does not imply that I was aware that I was seeing a tree, which is meta-cognition. In meta-cognition, the emphasis is on (non-phenomenal) awareness, which is different from attention where the focus is on a phenomenal object.
50:00 Alright, now you're starting to describe my life.
We say we are IN pain, we are in an experience of pain, experiencing pain. No one says "I feel pain" the way Kastrup suggests, they say "I am in pain".
the relevant distinction is between "I am in pain" and "I am pain".
could be in Dutch the turn of phrase is different
Bernardo, the self is always present.....you can never not be present.......if it were otherwise you would have nothing to commit to memory.
Can you please have a lecture with TUROK OR NIMA
The lady asked a very interesting question about dashboards, im thinking non meta cognition is not seperated so how can there be dashboards?
the dashboard is a metaphor for how mind at large shows up in our individual perceptions... it doesn't have to be metacognitive. Bernardo has a free intro course on Essentia that might help explain it all more clearly
Alone with the Alone
would it be possible in any neurological testing to actually detect all this and measure the activity of whats doing what in the brain.. id absolutley love to gain some clarity so i can learn about myself and understand myself and accept myself .. i want a real time experience just in my body and through just my physical eyes. i dont wanna watch me live my life i wanna experience fully the 'living' bit.
Meta-consciousness is akin to being aware that you are aware.
In meta-cognition, you are not really stepping out of that of which you are aware. Why? Because that of which you are aware is never separate from awareness itself. That which is perceived is at zero distance from the perceiver.
I have pain and I am pain are synonymous. You cannot experience pain if you are not it.
Although when you experience pain, you are pain, keep in mind that being-pain does not fully define you since you are pain and much more than pain. You are the infinite realm of awareness.
~~
This does not apply to cats and dogs since awareness of awareness is not meant to manifest within the body mind of animals.
more BK 👍
❤
But if your conscious is not disassociated then you not meta conscious? Then there no dashboards?
What does it mean by "the experiences and emotions can be shared"....!!?
what time stamp?
Yes, attention does not imply meta-cognition. Once you are aware that you are attentive, you have stepped into meta-cognition.
Your attention has shifted from 'solely on the object of attention' to include 'awareness of attention'.
It is a wider, a broader phenomenon. More inclusive.
Nicely clarified
Thanks
How do you know that the cat is not metacognisant. It only can't express it in language. How do you know it is saying "I have pain" or "I am pain"
is the number five 'many'? is that what he said ?? referring to free will as an incoherent concept
For an introductory guide to consciousness and reality with deep profound insights see ‘Finding Consciousness Within - The Essence Of Being’ by I A Gill
No ego equals no meta conscious and no meta conscious equals no ego?
This man has the knowledge of Buddha! I mean the great B.K. 🙏
He is blessed and liberated.
I think he would appreciate me saying he doesn't consider himself to be enlightened or a spiritual teacher
Of course I really appreciate he teachings and the fact that he frames himself this way :)
How would Kastrup describe the phenomenon of Lucid dreaming, I wonder...
Christ said it exactly :
I am 'that' I am!
If it’s only mental who’s brain are we in?
Can you be metametacognizant: aware that you are aware that you have pain?
I believe when this was asked elsewhere, the answer was yes
See excellent books: The Mind of Consciousness
&
Presence
by Ray Morose.
Can you compare your concept of mind with the concepts of mind and consciousness from the ancient Indian tradition?
So ego is meta conscious
Metacognition evolved out of language? "I am" vs "I have" is simply a linguistic distinction.
Obviously not. Most likely the language is the result of the understanding.
First
If man in the Western World haven't been conditioning us for decades now that the subjective is not as real as the objective this wouldn't be a problem
If we are always experiencing our breathing, we need new concepts for talking about how we are having that experience. In other words, we should not think of 'experiencing breathing' as if it is a dissociated alter that is having the experience of breathing. No. The experience of breathing is had IN whatever you are currently experiencing, not as it is experienced on its own, but in how it is happening now.
@@MyHaumea
yes, when it is conscious, I'm saying we need new ways to talk about this. Typically it is treated as if some part of us is always experiencing the breath in the way it is experienced when we shift our metaconscious attention to it.
Is instinct meta cognition because most animals will hold their breath by instinct if immersed in water,
I don't believe instinct would require metacognition, similar to how we instinctively close our eyes when splashed with water without having to plan or think about it.
👍
Yeah, like putting the fork to one's mouth to eat,
So meta conscious is ego
I think non meta conscious animals see the world totally different to us
My breathing hasn't been good through melting concrete in my home . I am glad I got to the route of my pain.
I have tried everything...
I ask myself why does God do this to me. . Its not God its man making so many mistakes....we are God we are to blame ....Praying that all these broken Loops van be fixed in our Society....so we can do the real work of making changes in our Subconscious ....thank you so much for sharing and raising Awareness.....Natural Selection.. ..means I am the last in my family....of the Mitochondria line ...I have no daughters....only sons ....Genetics can be sad but I suppose we are around for 400 years in junk Dna ...Belfast Ireland 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪
I would ask Bernardo:
Why do you suffer so much, for example for the people in Ukraine/Gasa in context , when the so called realaty is just the dials on the dashboard of what we called the realety
Pattern matching?
the dials represent true experiences, similar to how these words are just abstract symbols, but they convey an idea into your mind when you read them, and the idea is a real experience
@@adventuresinawareness thanks a lot for your time and passion, also for getting me not wrong. I admire him and his work a lot. Your answer is very satisfying to me.
Glad to find your channel🙏
The way you talk about M.A.L. suggests that it is instinctive. This confuses me, it's as if a crocodile could dissociate and generate alters with human abilities.
ACCADAMIANAMMAZOID
If I understand correctly the analytical idealism that you defend, from an ontological point of view there is only such a Mind At Large. It is the ontological primitive of your model. So it is Mind At Large, in reality, that generates metacognition, that generates everything that exists. How can we be metacognitive and M.A.L. no? Natural evolution is a process in Mind At Large. So it has nothing to do with automatic, somewhat random, so-called physical processes, which science says they are. How do you explain natural Evolution based on Mind At Large.?
great question! This comes up a lot - hopefully I'll find a video to point you to.
In short, if I've understood, metacognition can be thought of as a kind of epiphenomenal emergence, a kind of movement of mind at large, like a wave in the ocean might display a particular pattern that isn't found elsewhere in the ocean, just in that localised activity we call 'wave'