Are There Cards You Shouldn’t Play? l The Command Zone 241 l Magic: the Gathering EDH
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
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Show Notes:
Many cards and effects are contentious in EDH. Armageddon, Stasis, Iona, Scrambleverse…the list is long and varies depending on your playgroup.
On this episode we’re discussing a recent article by Commander Rules Committee member Sheldon Menery and asking the question: Are there cards you shouldn’t play?
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Sheldon’s Article:
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Elder Dragon Statesman (Sheldon’s Podcast):
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Follow Sheldon on Twitter:
@SheldonMenery
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What we talked about on THE END STEP:
PAI GOW MAGIC!
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Yo! Where all my alternate Pai Gow Magic name ideas at? Reply here so I can find em easily. -JLK
Three Card Monte! ..oh, wait.
how about "Three, Four, Axe" - not really creative, but you have 3 card decks, you have 4 of them, and you said lava axe was the best card) which is 5 damage
You could do something along the lines of "sudden death" or "blitz." I prefer blitz because its short quick and football has 4 quarters.
@@MickeymasterD93 Oh...Booster Blitz maybe? Hmmmm....has potential for sure. Good idea. -JLK
Change the rules to make it 3 decks of 4, and call it war of the four, or 4th war. Same rules best 2 of 3
"the fact that paradox engine isn't banned..." this has aged very well
LMAO I came here to say the exact same thing, i was going to put that in a new deck and then realized it was banned. And I was like, well I can see why.
Yup lol
Iona also bit the dust lol
"If we keep doing it" Do it! Extra Turns is great!
Hell yeah
Please keep Extra Turns and think about canceling Game Knights.
@@mms4382 Good Commander content on Game Knights would be a plus (last two have not been that)
MM SS Game Knights is the one thing I most love about this channel.
Without that format I wouldn't be watching.
Extra turns is really good
I like Sheldons' idea of, don't play cards that keep everyone from actually being able to play their deck. Commander is more about having fun.
Yeah i don't mind combos or big damage, but as soon as you destroy all lands, play blood moon or back 2 basics, or play the orbs. I'm saving all of my counter spells and destruction spells for you every time you play that deck lol.
Or a card that says "name a card, your opponents can't play that card" mainly being a commander..
as long as you don't keep people from playing then I'm fine, cause then what are we doing here. Everyone wants to play magic at the table, don't keep people from actually playing..
@@chrispy6953 I like playing with and against stax, makes interesting board states that makes resources even more valuable. Knowing the implications of how a specific stax piece being removed may enable someone else to win right away and how to play around it in the best way makes for fun political aspects of the game as well.
this would kill control. The archtype is needed. I do consider that armaggedon effects are bit too anoying, mostly because if used only as a control tool, it would take centuries to close the game, but being able to prevent your opponents from playing stuff reliably must an option in terms of deckbuilding, it should be what gauges the speed of combos able to win in a single turn (unlike aggro).
@@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860 Based on 27 some years of playing Magic i must disagree. Armageddon type cards are not "needed". I've played probably all of the deck types (including land destruction).
Games do not take long to end.
Back in the day the longest standard game lasted maybe a couple hours.
These days a game (any genre) lasts at most an hour or so without resorting to seeking the keeping of other players from playing their decks. That's what commander is about (all players playing their decks with a very limited amount of denial/control).
For Competitive EDH, sure do whatever it takes.
Not in social oriented commander games, ever.
I love how everything they say just flies out the window in cedh
i still don't get why the rules commite don't just copy the legacy and vintage cards banned and restricted there, and just ban them in commander as well. There are very few (like mental mistep or deathrite shaman) that are there purely based on their ability to warp meta on tempo and interaction SPECIFIC TO THAT FORMAT. Everything else is a degenerate combo enabler, via tutoring, recursion, or fast mana. I still don't get how sol ring isn't banned. Is STUPIDLY ubiquitus to every single deck, and allows absurds openings when droping 1st turn.
@@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860 I think it’s because of the 100 card format. I mean, yeah I don’t like sol ring, but then that will start a chain ban. Like every blue deck has counterspell. Every green has cultivate. I mean, it’s inevitable. And it’s a singleton format, so it’s only 7/100 that you’ll get it in your opening hand.
@@ominousmist960 but being in every single deck doesn't mean is broken. Basic lands are everywhere and nobody ask for a ban. The issue is how much they affect the table the turn they are played and how scalates relative to other cars of the same cost. There are plenty of 10 mana sorceries that are powerful, but not even close to Expropiate. Same with Sol Ring, Smothering Tithe or Gaea's Cradle. Something being good, really good, or even the best in it's category doesn't guaranteed a ban, but being many times over more efficient and powerful does.
@@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860 A small amount of early overpowered cards per deck is good in a multiplayer format. Its fun when there is a different player every game that gets ahead because of them. Randomness isnt very competetive but its very fitting for commander.
@@Currywurst4444 All you said proves my point. if they are overpowered, then, by definition, they are bad to the format. And i agree, randomness is very fitting for commander, i want weird cards winning games, not the exact same over and over again all the time, wich is worsen exponentially by the existance of tutors.
If I may be constructively critical about this episode, I feel like Josh made a better argument than DJ. While Josh seemed to tackle more of the "context" of the article and Sheldon's (possible) motivation behind it, DJ seems to come off a little more defensive. A lot of DJ's arguments seemed to come from the mindset of a "power gamer" not wanting to be constrained which I feel really missed the point of the article. I don't even think DJ is really like that, it's just his arguments seemed to come from there. I don't have a problem with combos, but I feel like anything that approaches infinite combos and/or prevents me from actually "playing magic" is not really going to encourage me to play again with you. Case in point: Palinchron is not the problem by itself, but it is very easy to abuse for infinite combos and it gets old very quickly when it gets abused. I think that was Sheldon's main goal with the article.
Three things I'd like to point out.
1) Something you guys mentioned was that it seems like his list included cards that made combos easier but never really followed up on that idea. Maybe the problem isn't combos but how easy getting them can be. I know I speak for myself (but I'm probably not alone) in saying that it feels worse loosing to a 2 card combo they tutored for than a 4 card combo they cleverly put together.
2) Considering the casual hate towards competitive, I think a lot of that is cost of good cards. The reason I don't run Demonic Tutor is not because I am "too righteous for such tryhard garbage," but because I cannot afford to put a $40-$50 card in my decks. Though malice towards players is never justifiable, some of the bitterness from casual is the feeling of pay to win.
3) Lastly, why are you guys so concerned about whether certain cards get banned or not? Outside of official play, I always understood EDH ban list to be like the pirate code: more guidelines than rules.
A lot of the "hate" towards Competitive EDH also comes from otherwise very competitive Magic players who enjoy the fact that Commander exists as a non-competitive multiplayer format, which is a nice change of pace and allows them to play with less competitive players and just have a good, laid back time.
These guys have stated before and it's fairly obvious that they basically have no scale in their head for what an Expensive card looks like.
@@anxez I have spent thousands on MtG. I became enamored with the EDH format back in 2008. I primarily spent money on building new decks to the most competitive form, whilst some of them still retaining an element of "fun". I have 32 EDH decks with close to 400-750$ put into them. But I also have 5 extra "Low Powered" single color EDH decks for casual or direct matches with newer players. The most I ever spent on EDH was building a hyper competitive Narset EDH with over 1600$ spent on it. If any of my opponents feel like it is P2W I will always offer any of my decks for them to play with, I enjoy playing magic, and playing it well. If you are playing with anything less than the best cards I will offer the best. I play decks with all of the cards listed. It is a lot of fun, and I'll be damned if Sheldon wants to tell me otherwise.
Everyone has their idea of what is casual and what is competitive. Its easy to get something fast with tutors. Set limits on that? The you have this open to interpretation, no land destruction, well certain players put these crazy land combos in the Deck, we are not sitting there when he turn 2 is attacking with marit lage hasted and hexproof. I can see mass land destruction maybe, too many players it slows game down, but many prepare for ways to get lands back, if we dont prevent players from doing the 'go infinite' combos, because they wont have fun, is it fun to play first to draw game win? Thassa's oracle, lab maniac, jace, wom with library removal, etc. We have locks, counters, mass removal, and cards to bring them all back, even from exile. But the group is pretty level, whoever gets ahead, gets ganged up on.
Another way we used a cube before, that was far more balanced, challenging and fun, but takes extra time if you have the time or have restricted certain sets and themes, like build from visions to appcalypse for the urza saga theme or other narrowed down selection, mayve toss in a vanguard ir archenemy. Most of the time its bring your best and game. Our friend with all the dual lands, etc. and the 5k deck never wins, he stopped putting them in there as to stop drawing attention to himself.
Not at any point I see the card my group hates a lot, lighthouse chronologist. Who no longer lives long enough to max level lol. No matter what, dont clone him haha. We had a game with 6 of them maxed level all over the board it was hillarious, it really was just back to taking turns as normal until all was wiped.
Most people do not view the banlist as guidelines. The rules are the rules and if I have to follow them, so do you. Especially in public settings with people you are unfamiliar with or don't know very well. Also, I think communication is key to any game. If someone brings a janky tabletop deck to an LGS or any event where they're playing pods that aren't full of their typical playgroup, it's on them to talk to the table and make everyone aware of the lower power level. Typically this results in the the other 3 players taking it easier on them, not removing as many of their permanents and even helping them find resources if necessary. It isn't fair to get mad at the guy who's been tweaking his deck for 2 years and is very experienced at the game. Typically someone that experienced will have multiple decks with them and will intentionally power themselves down to even the playing field. If you don't communicate, you don't have the grounds to be upset at the playing environment.
So let me get this straight: DJ is mad when the RC explains their thought processes, but then he's also mad that they don't explain all their bans to the extent that he would like. How are they supposed to win? Let him preside over the format alone as Emperor-for-Life?
Look, we only have two real choices: either a small group of people make ban/unban decisions for the format and you just have to disagree with some of their decisions, or decisions are made democratically and you still have to disagree with some of the results. Shifting from the RC to WotC is just a sidegrade option so as long as the RC is doing a mostly-ok job, I say let them keep at it.
The first time I played with a competitive group I was a little annoyed with the combos. But now that I've been playing commander for over a year I've taken to thinking more like Josh; I don't care which playgroup I play with, as long as everyone has an understanding what type of game we are playing.
My friend and I made that mistake at a convention last saturday. These two say they're kind of casual, not following a ban list, but that they've been playing a few years, going to prereleases, opening boxes, etc. Girl gushes over her selesnya deck, naming and/or showing some value stuff so my friend and I use our better decks that have comparable value. We end up stomping them in a 2-headed giant game, partly due to the guy having a bad hand, but also because we overestimated how good our opponents and their decks were.
"Thieves' Auction. Confusing."
Had to go read in detail what Thieves Auction does...Oh.
I like how DJ is like 'Sheldon doesnt like combo??' like hes personally offended
"If you're a stranger, Josh doesn't care if you have fun, he wants to crush you."
"No! Well.... yeah."
Josh: I want players to have fun when I play
Me: watches last few game knights edh games
Huh.
“Do you trust them more than WotC?”
*contemplates sponsorship*
Their podcast isn't sponsered by WotC though.
@@abhikan7654 I mean... They are constantly given free stuff by wizards. They definitely have deals worked with them.
"I'm fine with seedborn Muse" say the guy who play Vedalken Aurery in every of his decks. I wonder why XD
*Orrery
Im fine with vorencliex
@@Dragon-eu8cb that card is certainly not pog
I have a Narset and i complain when the other players don't target me.
"Hello guys, i'm going to won if you don't stop me!"
Josh is such a reasonable thinker. I always feel calmer watching these videos - and more informed!
I was thinking the same lol He seems so wise and thoughtful here.
Cause he's able to think objectively. Can't say the same for the other guy.
I'm definitely with Josh here on not being as worried as DJ is about possible bannings of the cards in Sheldon's article. It feels like Sheldon is well capable of not letting his decisions on the Rules Commitee be clouded by personal preference, at least that's the impression I had after reading the article.
I really think he wouldn't be publishing this article if he was working to get them banned. This is more like "I personally don't like playing with/against these cards as they deprive you of ways to play your deck, either through locking you out or killing you outright" I'd wager that at least one of these cards would be banned if he really wanted them to be banned.
Yeah all those cards aside from paradox engine could've been banned loooong ago
Are There Cards You Shouldn’t Play? Precons with Pros ;)
I was really interested to see what kinds of commander decks Brian and Ben would be piloting, at least we've had Melissa on Game Knights before. Oh well, still a good cast
Precons definitely make for super boring games from a spectator's perspective.
I wonder if they are going to do an extra turns episode with this cast?
@@JustABrokenToy You're only partly right. It's Ben Stark, so he'd build something heavy or even mono blue. Blue is boring. Draw cards, take turns and can't actually win a game on it's own.
Let it go already
Combo Enablers? Ahem, we're forgetting the TRUE Palinchrombo
Palinchron, High Tide.
High Tide Cost: U
Makes all islands produce an additional blue mana until the end of your turn
"If there was a card that cost 8 mana and said ""I win the game"", would you play it?"
"No, not at all."
"I wouldn't either"
.................................
"Biorhythm should be unbanned"
🤔
The funny thing is, I immediately thought of a green card when you said "8-mana win spell", without actually being consciously aware of Biorhythm 😂.
Thank GOD Biorhythm is banned! Theres absolutely no telegraphing with that card. You can be sitting pretty on turn 8 with rocks and enchantments and a full life total, but then someone plays biorhythm and now you're out.
Thing is you can't just cast biorhythm at any point and instantly win the game so the comparison isn't really balanced
Not ever wanting to play a card isn't the same as wanting it to be banned.
Exactly this.
. . .
. . . But I also want Biorhythm unbanned.
I would presume Biorhythm is banned because it very easilly reads "6GG: kill all opponents who don't have any creatures on board". They don't like cards that can kill a player in a single turn when cast without any other pieces.
Yeah. Wrath and then Biorhythm after your Doomed Traveler makes a token is not fun Magic
@@SolivagantCraig That's 12 mana...
Very easy to ramp out
@@Deathkeeper43 12 mana in green... the ramp color
Not even- Omniscience->Wrath + Biorhytmn
Need to add that DJ went full Alex Jones here with how he needlessly worried that Sheldon would ban any of these cards. He talks about barely using them and not having a problem with them but his exaggerated anxiety of Sheldon banning them contradicted that. If he seriously thinks that Sheldon would just let his feelings about what he doesn't like affect the way he evaluates cards with the RC, then it's obvious he hasn't read Sheldon's articles that much (the dude has discussed their process and how he interacts with that process SO. MANY. TIMES)
He seems to make arguments just to sound like he has an opinion without any real basis of reason for them.
Five life, Four decks, Three cards, Two players, One Pack. Easy name: Countdown.
Paradox engine is dumb. It's not even fun to play. It definitely belongs on this list.
To make matters worse, the people that play with it try to get combo pieces with zero defenses up, and then they complain about "being targeted because they're not the threat". Then they get paradox engine with a counter spell to protect it and win the game abruptly out of nowhere. So much fun right? This is a problem with infinite combo players in general. The whining and complaining about being targeted. Competitive combo players that win turn 3 is another story.
Got your wish lol
I despise this one individual at my LGS who likes to play blink effects and go infinite often.
My first game of commander in 6 years took place two months ago, first time at commander night & the shop. Made this known to the table. I didn’t do much with atraxa +1/+1 matters during that game. Turn 10 he combos of for infinite mana, then returned all nonland permanents to our hands. Then says “well I have infinite mana now, wanna call it?”
My words exactly were “okay you have infinite mana, cool. What are you going to do with it? Infinite mana doesn’t win you the game”
He groaned and blinked all our stuff then said “next turn is everyone’s lands.”
Preface: I had 4 storage lands with a total of 40ish available mana from those, & a board full of dual producing lands.
Cast atraxa, cheap bolster 2 creature, greaves on atraxa, cast vorel of the hull clade+greaves, atraxa with +4/+4 now, greaves to atraxa again, altered ego targeting vorel, greaves to vorel copy, atraxa with +8/+8, greaves to atraxa, spark double targeting vorel+greaves, atraxa with +16/+16 , greaves to atraxa. Swing for lethal at said player. GG
He packed and left. SALT.
Now if we sit down I take his permanents and kill him with them every time. I counter ALL of his tutors, I hate him out of every game because he’s just a shitty person. No one likes him and he plays scummy combos with the soul intent of ruining people’s game.
Ok but is it possible to be a not shitty person while playing that kind of deck? Im feeling a lot of hate from your post and Im not sure where it is directed at, the playstyle or the player.
9:35 Sheldon's list
God among men. Thank you
But where is Schindler's list?
Disaster Danny thanks
"The best card in Pi Gow Magic is love axe."
Ah, subtitles. Sometimes, they make me smile. I guess this goes up there with Swol Ring, Final Farting, and Skymarcher Perspirant.
The majority of these cards go into the same build of Derevi stax.
I noticed the same thing. I wonder if stax was a major problem in Sheldon's group for a while and they decided it was unfun.
I feel like half this video is kind of misunderstanding his article.
He didn't say he wants these cards banned. He didn't say he thinks they're a problem in the format. He's doing this more as an informative thing, being like "hey, these cards maybe aren't that cool to do, you might consider that for a house rule for your playgroup"
It all depends on how you play and build your deck. I've had someone tell me they don't want me to play my Xantcha deck which is based around punishment effects, because taking damage every time they draw a card or put out a token just makes most of their decks unplayable. On the other hand, that player is totally cool with me pulling out my Hatebears deck, which limits the things you can do and taxes your plays much like a Staxx deck would.
Then we have someone in our playgroup who plays a mono-white deck with Armageddon, because she claims that card just belongs to the typical flavor of oldschool white decks - and in that deck, it's not really that much of an issue.
It's all really dependent on context though. I wouldn't want someone to pull out the Armageddon or the Palinchron when playing at an LGS either though, if you don't know what you're up against and potentially there's some kids with weaker, more budget decks, you don't want to just steamroll them.
I'm from the future. Paradox Engine is banned.
I’ve had games where mindslaver has saved the table from a combo deck. In a four player game I haven’t had an issue with it.
“The fact that paradox engine isn’t banned...” this statement has not aged well
51:30 "I live in the real world too."
👏🔥 DJ getting saaaaaal-tay!
Some of my favorite commander moments have been "mean" combos going against one another. My opponent was trying to pull a Felidar Guardian Combo of with Animato while I was trying to pull off a graveyard recursion card. It was a crazy control mirror and we had some hilarious instances trying to keep each other under control.
Iona... she is a fun way to turn off Cyclonic rift. There is a lot of blue in my group lol Man I love that card.
F
DJ needed to chill in this episode, especially with the talk of, "you can't tell me what to do." It's an article by the father of the format giving his two cents, nothing more nothing less. I guess he should have titled the article "Cards I Would Recommend Not Playing In Your Play Group In Commander But Only If You Feel Like It No Pressure".
Lol no pressure
The only real problem I found with all these cards (Mana Denial and Infinite Combos) is that those prevent a LOT of player to go and play EDH at their Local Game Store. I heard of a lot of people that just are afraid to go and participate with new people, because they believe they will go just to get all ther lands destructed or combo'ed before turn 5, and have an awful time all day. Just because the lack of rules for 'casual' players. That I can tell from my personal experience.
Maybe there could be a special 'Casual EDH Ban List' banning all that boring stuff, just to get a better understanding before starting a match with new people. Like, not a real banlist, but something like 'Hey, this decks fits legally into the casual category stablished by Wizards' and 'This decks doesn't', so I can clearly know in which kind of game I am about to get in.
I can confirm a lot of this. Many times has our store seen a competitive deck wipe out a casual pod. And that is simply miserable and unfun. We came here to play this group, fun format.
Our store has competitive pods and casual pods. Most of the casual decks I'm our community are 7 or above with at least some of these cards on here but we generally play to the power of the group. Then the cedh folks play for packs lol. Works pretty good
That would be excellent.
Used to have a Niv-Mizzet deck and i'd just sort of ask people on how we're handling that before joining a game, then decide on whether there'd be a Curse of Verbosity or a Curiosity in it.
I came across a Lavinia of the Tenth player who made an entire deck around locking all of the players out of the game. We sat there doing next to nothing, we couldn't block, we couldn't attack, but he could and just sat there blinking her at end of turn. Then he dropped Armageddon and Faith's Reward. It locked us out and he continued to sit there. He wasn't attacking, he wasn't really doing anything. He was wasting our time. I told him that isn't fun and this is the type of game play that makes players not want to play. This isn't fun, we aren't here to watch him masturbate to himself.
As a player, I do tend to let players know I am super casual. I like winning through stupid antics and decks that can easily end in suicide if I play it wrong. I don't have an issue with competitive decks. But if you sit down at the table and somebody tells you this is there second game of commander and you drop a turn 2 Kozilek or Blight steel Colossus... I do have an issue with that.
If you’re afraid of those Cards, hedge against them? I NEVER build decks to play against Back to Basics/Blood Moon, and if it happens, my decks will be completely shut down, but I dont care.. rarely happens, and when it does, I dont mind/shrug it off (sometimes even find it funny.)
But if you expect those in your meta, PLAY/build AROUND it! Use more Basics, be less greedy, run less color Commanders, etc.
Had a telepathy in my deck for a while, just a blue and everyone else has to play with their hands reveled. I kept getting it in my opening hands or first draw. The games got so confusing with everyone's hands on the table, after a few times i felt compelled to take it out.
I had it in my deck for a couple games. Not worth the time trying to keep track of what people had, when they would pretty much play the same, except for trying to kill me for not showing my hand.
Luke Stine Telepathy basically grinds games to a halt. It turns everything into an onboard trick and everyone’s mental load becomes overloaded and becomes terrified of getting blown out by something they should have seen coming.
I only run it in my Isperia the Inscrutable deck because I want the information for naming the card. It definitely has lead to analysis paralysis.
Same kind of experience. Even if it changes the game, and changes are interesting, it still was more annoying than good. Ended up making it; just reveal the hand when I want to see it...
"I'll Emrakul, but then that's it. You get your turn."
And completely waste Teferi's Protection. XD
still dont get why recuring nightmare is banned in commander, its my favorite card for any reanimator deck and would have loved to build a commander deck with a lot of into the battle field triggers with it.
You don't even need to get mana doublers or ridiculous quantities of land to get Palinchron to start giving you extra mana. All you need is a Deadeye Navigator. Tap seven lands, spend two of that mana to flicker Palinchron via the soulbond ability Navigator grants, and get those seven lands untapped. Repeat, for five mana (or more) net each time.
Where are the izzet sleeves in the background?
3:09
ma man
Muh dude
I feel like Josh has a good point in this video. Play to the power level of your group. I have several decks, Animar, Muldrotha and Krenko, that all vary in power. I usually play whichever deck is best suited for the group I'm playing in. The only time I play a disproportionate deck is if the table arbitrarily decides to kill you before decks are chosen or the game begins. I have someone that I play with frequently that likes to target me just to say they've killed me. It is fine and it is up to me to react appropriately and protect myself from said player... I just realized this comment is all over the place, but that's okay, let's have a discussion.
I'm the most experienced player im my usual play group, and I face the same problem of being the main target of all free for alls. I've adapted most of my decks to be either pillow forts or hyper aggressive just to combat this and I don't like it. I'd rather play to my own style, I'm not sure how else to combat this.
@@paulcamaratta7799 My play to combat this some, is to build a deck that helps the table so there are incentives to not attack me. Let everyone play and see if it helps. Just try to make other people look like better targets.
YUP. The golden rule of EDH!
@@paulcamaratta7799 I'm not EVEN the most experienced, but I wound up having to build turn 4 decks where I can erase 2 people if everything plays right JUST to deal with the amount of heat I seem to attract with my very presence at the table alone. It really does feel bad ^^;
The issue with this plan is that people like me (I have played mtg since the 90s & have 3 commander decks) are less likely to play as we dont know how competitive play groups are, what their unwritten house rules are or how good our decks are... I still have not played a single game of commander.
P.s Jumbo I remember playing in that game with the narset guy at GP Vegas !! I was the guy who was playing Kresh !!
I know this is a fairly old video but I think I've seen this in newer videos too: if you are saying 'we all know this card' is it possible to leave the card up for a bit longer to give new commander players the chance to read it without pausing or at least to pause at the point that the card is actually readable? I understand these cards are probably super basic for any somewhat experienced commander player, but as a new player these podcasts are just not ad fun when you have to Google every card that 'everyone knows'
A really annoying deck that a friend of mine has: Rashmi extra turns. He claims it is not a combo deck. The rest of the group does not buy that because the way he wins is taking between six and infinite extra turns. He almost never gets to go infinite tho, bc the rest of us just shuffle up as he starts to go through a few turns without slowing down bc it takes FOREVER and nobody else gets to do anything. Because of that deck, I have issues with combo so I understand if Sheldon might.
I play high tide in EDH and something I can't stress enough if you're going to play a deck like that is to understand the ins and outs of your deck and practice your lines. I can move very fast when I am confident that I'll be able to combo off, and as a result my playgroup will usually scoop when they feel they've seen enough. Somebody recently joined our group wanting to play a storm deck which wins in a similar manner, but he got a ton of complaints. The biggest difference is that he spent 15 minutes on a turn that would take me 2 minutes, going "hmmm ... I think I'll ... actually I'm going to .... maybe I'll ..... hmmmm" every step of the way. The less confident you are in your lines also makes it more likely that you will fizzle, which makes people more inclined to stick around and see it through, resulting an absolutely miserable experience for everyone involved. If you are the type of person that casts demonic tutor without knowing what you want to grab you should not be playing combo.
@@ssjAnnaPaquin yeah I feel this. I didn't realize how fast I was until I was playing a game with a group I didn't know. Turn two I put down polluted delta and said, "Fetch shock for Watery grave play demonic tutor go."
I started searching through my deck for both cards at once because I knew the spell would resolve. The guy next to me turns to me and says, "Thanks for playing fast."
Lol he would leave my playgroup in a heartbeat this is the type of stuff I’ve learned magic on
I'm not gonna lie Josh totally nailed this whole conversation about agreeing or disagreeing with the rules committee. I'll say I used to play Yu-Gi-Oh! and I left because of the changes they made to the game: Master Rule 4, patching the first player drawing rule out, and stuff like that drastically changed a game that a lot of people were already very comfortable in going through the motions for. I switched to Magic and specifically commander because not only is it a lot of fun, it's so reliably consistent that I never need to worry about something so drastic happening that I can't enjoy the game further. Do I want a few cards off the banlist? Sure, but when your card pool is literally thousands of cards as an eternal format and only a few dozen are banned; I'm not gonna complain much.
yugioh is still a lot of fun if you play it like commander ironically
This is one of my favorite videos you've put out. Just the sheer passion and the fact that you both argued like adults, and could handle having different opinions. Great job.
37:57 Nope. Competitive players sometimes shame non-competitive players for playing "weak" or "bad" cards. So the scrutiny definitely does point both ways. No need to color a community as more aware as the other, that seems to be an assumption.
Ive moved to many places and will have a play group for about a year then move again (not my families fault), but having so far 4 play groups and playing magic 10 years, the first 2 were nice and had power levels of 5-7 at I followed that. Then my 3rd group... first game I was playing a 6ish power deck against their mean 8-9ish decks and after the first game they poked fun at me that "I couldn't afford good decks." Not knowing I played magic 9 years at that point. And it was a lot of social contracts being broken with one playing infinite mind slaver, kiki-jiki splinter twin deck, and the 3rd playing the blue predator and sensa triplets and other tough cards. So I came with 3 or 4 power 10 decks cycling through them so they cant just fix there deck to beat it like they did with themselves. It felt good to get that vengeance with very few loses for poking fun at me especially since they did it to keep other newer players away. But I'm in my 4th group now and its far more fun then the other group.
ive found most edh players to be very pretentious cucks.
Tax and land destruction are anti fun. They reduce engagement. It’s one thing to counter, destroy and fight etc, but losing is more fun than not playing.
You never want to turn a multiplayer game into a single player game, that’s what anti fun is.
I had to come back to this episode and watch it to pay my respects to Paradox Engine. F.
My group's thing is that combos are fine, but as long as you don't always win that way. That influenced the way I build my decks so that I can combo if I draw the pieces, but I don't need to if I don't have to or want to.
After reading through the list, the only thing I run is Back to Basics, and in my playgroup, it's more often fuel to pitch to Force of Will or a loot trigger than it is anything else. My playgroup tends to focus on basics, with monocolor and two color decks being the most common. If I saw five-color goodstuff, it might see the stack.
Biorhythm is banned because EDH is a format where 12 mana happens- and it's a card that eliminates multiple players at a time. I trust the RC FAR more than I would handle Wizards with the same product. Where I disagree with the RC is solely in not banning Intuition (because really, cheap multitutors are the worst.)
It's also odd to me that there's this complaint about the RC not being transparent. There's an entire forum where they interact with EDH players on a regular basis; they thoughtfully answer emails. This accusation of them staying opaque WHILE you fidget about an act of transparency on Sheldon's part makes me wonder a bit (not about either of the hosts- but if this sortof reaction is typical.) The RC runs on BST- the community is allowed to get as close to them as we like (within reason-) or stay as remote. For them, it's about crafting a form of Magic that emphasizes the social experience- they've been solid on that.
If you reach 12 mana and are allowed to cast your combo unimpeded against multiple players you deserve to win. I mean Tooth & Nail does all that for 8 mana and is fine in the format. If we have to ban 12 mana 2-card combo's that end the game, where do we draw the line?
@@wouterluijten9033 It isn't even Biorhythm as a 2 card combo, though. Biorhythm just ends the game in a number of positions. Anyone who survives the spell probably doesn't have the tools to survive through blocking combat damage afterwards. There are so many contextual issues with "Set target player's life" in EDH, that when you blow that scale up- it just forcibly ends the game. I mentioned 12 mana, because the usual talking point is it being an 8 mana sorcery- to which our friends need to be reminded that Azusa, Rishkar, and Selvala are all very real.
@@paralykeet- why would someone that survives the spell not have the tools to survive combat? They still have creatures. If anything the player that casts biorhythm is on sub-5 life too and will be hammered by the remaining players. Regardless, there's loads of cards that are available (ie. unbanned) that are waaaaay worse than biorhythm: insurrection, expropriate, tooth and nail, omniscience, paradox engine. All these cards pretty much end the game on the spot with quite a few of them have barely any prerequisites that need to be met.
On top of any debate about the strength of the card, playgroups are self-regulating. If a player has Selvala or Azusa as a commander and plays Biorhythm, he might (and that's not even a given) win that game but he's going to be focused the rest of the night.
@@wouterluijten9033 You can cast Biorhythm pre-combat, if you control the most creatures in a 2 health scenario, you probably win on the spot. The RC's reasoning in banning it was very well founded. The argument about similar-enough cards that aren't banned is also silly. If you will observe, there are footnotes to EDH's banlist- which specify what the banlist exists for, and that cards similar tend to spoil games of EDH, It is not a banlist that is enforceable on any level other than "we won't play with you". It's a social game before it lends itself to any of it's competitive leanings. You could tell the guy who jams Expropriate that you won't play with them while they try to win through Expropriate for the same effect.
binge watching these a year later out of boredom and laughing at the sentence "im glad paradox engine isnt band."
I think you are missing something.
I think by putting these cards into categories you really missed the one big problem he has. I think you guys are looking at these cards with the question of "how powerful are these cards?", But I think he is looking at these cards with the question of "Is this how Magic is meant to be played?" Commander is also meant to be a fun, casual game. Not a competitive tournament style game, so it would bother him more to be playing with cards that completely change the game of Magic.
I think he has issues with cards that drastically change the rules of magic. I also agree with that. If you take Armageddon for an example, It would be very annoying to have all lands destroyed because lands are crucial to playing the game. It is the source of how the game is played. That's like playing monopoly and "destroying" the money. The game feels pointless if that happens. The point of the game is to outmaneuver and play the other person. If you have no mana to do that, just like if you had no money in monopoly, then you are no longer playing the game. I think he likes to beat people because he is the better player, not because he has a crazy card that changes the game making it impossible for the others to win. It feels cheap.
For example, I actually do not think his big problem with Sorin was you going down to 10 on Sorin. I think the problem is that his ultimate gives you control of that player like Mindslaver does. It could be that both are on that card too! It sounds like he is more concerned about not playing the game the way the game is meant to be played. Taking someone else's turn is just not how games in general are played. Only in Magic can that really happen, and I think he has issue with that.
Another example, you said theives action was just confusing when explaining it. I think he would actually say, "that's not magic!"
And again with Wound Reflection, you are not meant to be losing double the amount of life out of nowhere, AND it is constant!
I believe that by putting these cards into categories you actually made it harder for yourself to see his overall problem with these cards.
No one worries about sorin ultimate. It's his minus 3 because it's pretty much instant
Fiery Emancipation is better than wound reflection in many cases. It's new and is balanced but higher ceiling.
Sorin Markov makes your life total 10. Wound reflection works by doubling the life you lost this turn (paraphrasing). Since Sorin does not do actual damage but sets your life, is that considered damage? Respectively, would that mean that wound reflection would not combo off Sorin because it is not considered lost/damage to life?
I am pretty much on board with Josh’s philosophy here. I do play Vorinclex in a Damia deck though. That deck also has the other praetors in color, and a Ulamog, and x spells. My play group is heavy on removal and answers so we all have fun anyway. I have discovered it really comes down to how the decks interact, and if we all have power stuff, but are still vulnerable to interaction, Salty giggles are well received.
DJ is FAR too worried about bans. There are always more cards that can be played. And I know that DJ would love the challenge of adaptation to the format change.
So what if Palinchron gets banned? You always have your own circle of people to play with (same can be said for house rule bans, I know). But we have dishonest people in stores that walk in with their competitive deck to wipe out a casual pod. It gets really miserable and makes people not want to go to the store anymore.
Golden Rule of EDH? Treat others how you want to be treated. Be honest, find similar power levels to make the game enjoyable for the group. THAT is why EDH is a thing. If you are there to compete, go to a competitive pod or play Standard, or Modern, or Legacy.
The only card that shouldn't be played in EDH is Battle of Wits
That doesn't make any sense. You could build an interesting deck around Battle of Wits
@@Whistling_Kelp but you actually can't. Can't have over a hundred cards
@@H4J1L3 it still hits for 5 with opelesance
@@huckasex - Spawnsire of Ulamog -> 500 emrakuls -> Battle of Wits -> Put's on sunglasses*
@@H4J1L3 Oh really? Didn't know that. I thought nobody played more than 100 because we know to play magic
I have 3 things I would like to comment on regarding the first segment of the video, concerning the discussion about Sheldon's article and what it means for Commander as a format:
1: Always try to check up with your playgroup and get to a common ground on what is fun and what is not. If possible match deck strengths like Josh mentions.
If a player comes with an 8/10 power level deck against 3 precon decks, it's likely that none is having that much fun.
2: If the RC ever gets trigger happy, it is fortunately a mostly unofficial format, so the banlist can be ignored. In my playgroup we have ignored certain card-bans (prior to them being unbanned) because people had them and didn't use them in a very "degenerative" way - aka their inclusion upped the deck strength but not to ridiculous levels compared to the rest of the group.
3: Most playgroups have house rules because they find certain playstyles or cards to be unfun to play against - land destruction / mana restriction being one of the highest on the list in my playgroup. If ever involved with a new playgroup, it's always a good idea to probe if there's some playstyles or cards that you should avoid playing in the group, just to get to a common ground of what is fun and what is not.
Now regarding the cards that Sheldon in his article says that people might reconsider playing:
A lot of the cards is mana restriction (and Mindslaver), simply stripping people away from playing. In simple terns Magic is usually not fun if you cannot actually play the game for an extended amount of time, either because you cannot untap any/much mana or because you're not allowed to play during your turn due to cards like Mindslaver being reused.
Another group is cards that enable combos very easily like Palinchron and Paradox Engine. Combo is obviously a thing that should be available in Commander but Palinchron makes it very easy to attain infinite colored mana through itself and a mana increaser. You can get infinite colorless mana through cards like Rings of Brighthearth and Basalt Monolith, but not having access to colored mana through that loop makes it less devastating but could just as easily close out a game like Palinchron might. So it might also be cards that people should consider steering away from as a combo.
Sheldon takes a stab at Seedborn Muse as well in the same heartbeat as Palinchron but I'll agree with Josh that Seedborn provides the mana at an awkward time and usually doesn't allow people to combo off but rather just have access to a lot of mana during a round. However without Flash, Instants, or abilities to take advantage of the mana, the benefit is much less present - which is why Prophet of Kruphix got banned but Seedborn Muse is not. In general if you need to have multiple cards to play into these powerful effects, it is a lot more fair than if they are just tacked together too easily.
And Seedborn Muse is a creature without further protection and a quite mediocre body considering the format, so dealing with it is not that big of an issue.
Sorin Markov is fair to have on the list. I don't find it offensive but he does circumvent the format's natural setting, much like Serra's Ascendant and Felidar Sovereign/Test of Endurance. I don't want to see Sorin banned because the presence of him also means that people in general cannot just go lifegain decks and become near immortal if they can deal with commanders that could pose a threat to kill them with commander damage.
Thieves' Auction is just a pain to resolve and I agree with Josh and DJ that it doesn't really accomplish that much, it's just annoying.
Wound Reflection is fine. It's a black damage trick that can throw people off or catch them off guard thinking they could survive the damage but surprise they could not. It's often just a gimmick card that deals a load of extra damage as a trick when it enters and afterwards people are either gonna use it to their advantage against other opponent's of the controller of Wound Reflection or they will just target the controller him/herself so they can share in on the love. I feel like it's a card that self-corrects by threat assessment. Kinda like Avatar of Slaughter or Gisela, Blade of Goldnight.
I feel like it's meta to hate on Derevi for the Commander format but I also feel like it's not validated until you play a deck that abuses Derevi's abilities. If you play a Stax-deck where Derevi can circumvent the drawback, then yes it is extremely powerful and annoying. If you play a deck that can generate extreme amounts of mana with Gaea's Cradle, Nyxthos or whatever and close out the game consistently, then yes it can be extremely powerful and annoying.
However it seems to all come back to how you build your deck considering what Derevi can offer. Derevi CAN be abused but you can also choose not to.
If the annoying part is that Derevi always can come back for 4 mana, then there are ways to deal with that; Pithing Needle, Darksteel Mutation, Imprison in the Moon, Song of the Dryads.
And the creature is a 2/3 flier that can tap or untap a permanent when it enters, which is not a strong body.
If the constant presence of Derevi is something people find problematic, then I wonder why they don't feel the same about Oloro or any of the Eminence commanders doing stuff without paying for it but just for being your commander.
Derevi giving all your creatures the tap/untap trigger on combat damage to player also stipulates that you can actually deal combat damage to a player - aka you need evasive creatures or overwhelming (amount of/trampling) creatures. Tapping a permanent after dealing combat damage usually doesn't make much sense except for political plays, so usually people resort to untapping permanents - often lands. You can get the exact same effect from Nature's Will or Sword of Feast and Famine and on a much larger scale for a much smaller investment - although not as a commander.
I play a Derevi deck in my playgroup and I win rarely. Not because everyone is focusing me, but because I don't feel like I abuse Derevi. I play a more casual, down-to-earth, evasive style deck and my worst Derevi-synergy-offenders are likely Spawning Grounds, Sakashima, Willbreaker and Dismiss into Dream. All of whom are powerful in the deck, but then again everyone plays stuff that is powerful in their decks.
I want to have fun and I want people I play with to have fun. I hear groans every once in a while about Derevi from certain members of my playgroup when I select the deck to play, but I feel like that's more that those specific players are influenced by what they read/hear about Derevi often presented in a negative tone, than the actual power it has in my deck. However the playgroup usually groans against most decks that people play, which I think is more a "ah, I have to take that deck's playstyle into consideration." than it being "that deck is too powerful.". When I asked if they found my deck to be too strong they said it wasn't worse than any other deck in our group. I certainly don't have the winrate to claim that it is a very strong deck.
And for DJ's story-time at 38:31 - in general I find tutors to be a slight problem for Commander but I also understand that their presence can actually make some janky decks work or grant certain decks some reasonable chance to answer a threat, while if those tutors weren't there you would have to be able to draw/filter A LOT to be able to pull off some janky Rube Goldberg combo.
Whenever a player plays a tutor and I don't know his deck, I have to assume he goes for a low count combo and have to deal with him. As such I understand people who are like "Ugh, you play tutors to get around the singleton format?" but that is usually embedded in the anticipation that they will combo off relatively soon. I find Commander fun especially because you cannot plan it out as much as 60-card formats. Each game you have to deal with what you get, and tutors get around that.
Another reason why I dislike tutors in Commander is because you usually see the same things tutored for every time and that kinda ruins the experience for me.
If a green deck has accumulated a sizeable but weak board, and just before they take their turn plays Worldly Tutor, you know that Craterhoof Behemoth is coming. If they play the Behemoth straight from their hand with no tutor, it is what they have been dealt and I find that perfectly fair but tutors are effectively just a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... copy of a certain card and it can get old fast.
I cut Thieves' Auction after Possibility Storming into it with a Confusion in the Ranks on the board. No play with that card will ever top that, took like 40 minutes to resolve.
so he doesnt like stacks combo or cards with abilities that are fair in standard or modern. but hes fine with expropriate protean hulk and others
In my play group, we all decided to not play infinite combos. They seem to ruin the fun for everyone else. Maybe, when we understand it more, it will be better. But right now, we will not use them.
we made tutors. only for land ...that helps
@@TheRedGauntlet I love watching Game Knights, but when Josh pulls out an infinite, I admit that I cringe a little. It is a little scary, and at the same time, seems like it ruins the game. But like I said, I am still learning, so maybe it is just because of that.
@@TheRedGauntlet or they could play spot removal. You know, that thing every deck should have anyway
Command Zone, in general I like your content. But this episode felt kinda sour to me because I think you misunderstood the content of the article.
I feel the best way to summarize what was said is, "These kinds of cards can make EDH unfun by preventing people from playing the game. If you're group is having unfun experiences, this discussion could offer insight into why that's happening and how to deal with it.
And sure, most of this is obvious once you get on the ground and play. But that's okay because not everyone sees obvious things, and opening up discussion can help everyone do better. Hell, I don't even play EDH and it gave me insight on what would be unfun to build if I ever got into it.
The misunderstanding I saw lead to a episode that felt very negative to me, and instead of getting a discussion on how to maintain a fun group we got a lot of salt that turned me off from the rest of the episode.
"These kinds of cards can make EDH unfun by preventing people from playing the game. ..."
Yep. I think this is the problem. Some cards are just unfun to play against and Commander is supposed to be a fun social format.
Anything Stax, even though I LOVE playing it, I recognize nobody else enjoys playing against it.
The best way to get around a deck that constant mists is simple. Put an aether flux reservoir in every deck you build. You never know when you need to fire off the death ray.
notion thief in a wheel deck... i have played this... and i feel bad just looking at in my hand ....
Philip David Davies i’ve never thought about this interaction before but that is so brutal
Yeah, but if I resolve a Consecrated Sphinx, you lose the game :-)
I literally didn't put notion thief in a deck I have because I looked at it and thought "this is so mean"
i did this literally once and got stopped but then i've never been able to actually do it because its just so feel bad for everyone else
Palinchron ISN'T the issue...Deadeye Navigator with it IS.
He goes infinite with a number of cards. Deadeye isn't even the only creature you can tooth and nail package with him to go infinite either.
Half-way throug the episode, DJ really manages to get on my nerves by whining an unreasonable amount, there are even attacks ad hominem, implying Sheldon is crazy and only because the rest of the RC is not, the cards aren't banned. By the end DJ made fair reasonable points and they even contribute cards to "cards you shouldn't play". I don't mean to be rude, i just have no better words for this.
I wonder why its ok for the Command Zone to tell the world their opinions, but not for Sheldon. I took the article as a recommendation and a thing to think about, that doesn't mean i'm going to take Seedborn Muse out of my Enrage Tribal deck. It's just a an article ( not a new banlist) that can spark conversations about what priorities a playgroup has and if we want to choose not to play specific cards for the greater enjoyment.
Btw thanks Josh for being a voice of reasen through the whole episode.
Flo Heisenberg I agree. I’ve stopped watching halfway through two different DJ episodes cause it’s just not fun to listen to
An old EDH playgroup I was in did that for every 4 player game you won you got to ban a card from the playgroup until the end of the year. It kept people playing seriously while allowing people to get rid of some of the cards they personally hate. Usually at the end of the year there are around 25 - 30 cards that are banned, more or less depending on how much we played. It's kept our personal playgroup healthy because people never got repeatedly annoyed by the same things over and over.
In my play group, there's about 3 things people do that I don't like. Mass land destruction, Cascade, and Paradox Engine. So, I built decks to counter these things. I built an upgraded version of Lord Windgrace to combat my lands getting blown up. I built a taxes with Grand Arbiter Augustin IV to combat cascading (lookin at you, maelstrom wielder and maelstrom wanderer!) and using Paradox Engine. Of course, it depends on your play group and the amount of disposable income you have, but I feel like this is most often the correct response to these problems. Plus, it encourages you to try something new that you might just like. That Lord Windgrace deck is now my favorite EDH deck I've ever played!
Cards that I don't play? I don't play "do not untap" cards. I don't think it's all that fun. I tried them with Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but it wasn't really my thing to be the guy who plays commander to watch 3 other people not play commander. I do play constant mists though, and I don't agree with the sentiment of it not being "fair," and I do not feel bad about playing it. If you're going to play a deck that MUST attack to win, you better be able to play around fogs or it reflects pretty poorly on your deckbuilding.
10:20 for the start of the actual card conversation.
Am I missing something, or am I right to understand that it's pretty expensive to own most magic cards?
All hobbies are accessible at a range of budgets.
I dont like fast mana. Its stupid and broken so i dont play sol ring, mana crypt, mox whatever etc.
That end step game seems really fun 😁
its stupid and broken so ill play an inferior deck. your logic makes perfect sense.
@@elymolloy8333 it doesnt from a powerlevel perspective i agree
I would still play rocks such as Sol Ring, Worn Powerstone, Ur-Golem's Eye, etc. I can understand not playing Crypts, Moxen, etc. (I don't own any of those due to money), but I think it's not a good idea to handicap yourself by not running ANY of that stuff; at the same time, you can totally play without Mox, Crypt, etc.. But what matters is doing what'll be enjoyable while still being able to actually play in your environment. I wonder if maybe to counter that early ramp, it might be fun for you to build a dedicated anti-artifact deck in order to punish that early mana? That might be fun.
Do what you enjoy.
@@Firebird20XX i dont play fast mana. That doeant mean that i dont play rocks. Fast mana is everything that produces more mana as it costs (per usage)
Thats broken and should be banned imo and thats why i dont play them even if i could afford them financially
Your absolutely right refusing to play mana rocks would be pretty stupid.
I don't think it's completely fair to say it's all broken. I think at that point we're painting with too far broad of strokes. I guess I don't mind it so much because it helps the other colors have ramp to stay on pace with green and because you can always try to punish them for playing so greedily by blowing up their rocks. I think the fast rocks are powerful but I don't think all of them completely warp Commander. But I see we have a difference of opinion and I can respect that. Though that said I suggest accepting the Sol Rings. Hate the others if you want but you'll probably never play outside of a super casual group that doesn't always run Sol Ring. I admit the others can make things a bit too explosive if you're just not able to ramp and catch up, but the Ring is so affordable and ubiquitous that I think it kinda balances out because EVERYBODY can get a Sol Ring.
I still think you might like a dedicated anti-artifact deck to specifically punish that playstyle. Bane of Progress, Vandalblast, etc., would really punish getting greedy with all those rocks and might bring them down a bit in power.
my friend used the Eldrazi that tutors for another one and puts it on the top of his deck to get Emrakul one time. i sat there and smiled with a Stolen goods in hand. twas glorious
What about spell deck orriented completely around land destruction, generally unfare.
What if every card destroys target land(s). Is it Valid, as stacks is still 'valid-ish', based off farness, speed, or win-con.?
I really found DJ hard to listen to in this ep because of his total indignation over the RC having a modest ban list, and to an extent, existing at all.
While I understand that he wants a governing body that can control how strangers approach the format, I think he is totally losing sight of the Social Contract that EDH is predicated on. Yes, most people play exactly to the rules list and ban list that the RC maintains, but even in this ep, Josh explains that he will deliberately not use cards in his deck while playing because he feels it would be a breach of the social contract if nobody has established they are playing "mean" or at a more competitive level. Most isolated play groups adopt their own ban lists and rules adjustments that make their play experience ideal, and that lines up entirely with the goals of the format.
Long story short, DJ getting twisted about Sheldon's and the RC's opinions and bans is extremist and not in the spirit of EDH, IMO.
Biorhythm is probably banned beacause boardwipes are so prevelant in the format and biorhythm as a card punishes boardwipes in a disproportionate manner. Think of ther senario where a playher spends all of their mana on a boardclear to save their life and then someone drops a cheap creature and biorhythm's to win the game. Its a fringe case yes but it is the only case that the card is "good" in. While I think we all know that there are other ways to win on six mana this card could feel bad because you make the only possible play and then loose the game. The card also disproportionaly hits spellslinger type decks which barely run any creatures. I'm not saying its a good ban but if you think of why it might be banned there is an argument to be made that is not crazy. As for unbanning it would it make the format better? I dont think it would matter that much. It would show up in blue green decks that make a ton of mana cyclonic rift (see it shows up everywhere) and win. Some token strategies would run it because they could gain lots of life and then their opponents would have between 2-10 life.
Re: Biorhythm. Exactly. In the video when dude asked "why is Biorhythm banned" I thought "because it's a one card instant game over in a situation that happens multiple times a game in Commander."
then later in the video he rhetorically says "if there was a card that cost 8 that says "you win the game" I wouldn't play it."
Say what dude?
Fetchland EoT-> Dryad Arbor. Untap, use Boseiju to cast Biorhythm.
Also it is a card that can easily cause a lot of draws out of spite with Evacuation, other instant or flashed sweepers, or just a salty player drawing the game out after his board was cleared. All feelsbad situations.
@@fearanarchy 2 card combo that wins the game? Jesus lets ban them all...
I think that it is really good for every play group to consider what is fun to them. I am pretty sure a list of cards that shouldn't be played isn't created on a whim. Suggesting he needs to know how you play in order to have an opinion isn't true. He is as much entitled to his opinion as you are to disagree with it and criticize it, but to say he hasn't met some arbitrary standard required to form a valid opinion is just as ineffective a counter point as saying "that's wrong because I disagree with it and I disagree with it because it is wrong."
I think that especially anyone trying to make the most of a play group to keep it fun, healthy, balanced, and not too lengthy in time, there are more cards you should avoid. Natural Affinity + aoe damage/wrath effect.
The whole conversation however sounds like it boils down to people taking the game way too personally. His list is not saying that those cards are too tough for you to handle because you are too weak to handle a real challenge, but you certainly are reacting as if the list has challenged your toughness, mettle, manhood, or whatever. It sounds like you guys aren't putting forth an effort to understand why the list was made except to find an explanation that you think supports your arguments against the list.
The things you are attributing to the list are not necessarily part of the list itself, and attacking the things you attribute is just tilting at dragons. It's good that you have some arguments that you can make against the points you bring up, but you guys are the ones bringing up the points.
Maybe in the future you can do an episode where you try to justify agreeing with everything on the list even if that isn't your actual opinion of how to play the game just to see if maybe you learn something new about how you actually feel about a card or play style. It might make you a better magic player for it. it might give you a deck idea. It might even be enough for quality content in future episodes.
Lastly to be clear. I think this is quality content. I just wanted to share my perspective on approach to the topic and how there are other angles you can take on it and still disagree with the list :) Keep up the great work everyone. One last thing. if someone tells you to do something and you do it, that doesn't necessarily mean you did it because they told you to.
I once cast my entire sliver deck on turn 3 by accident. I know exactly why my playgroup pushes me off the table first.
Kiki Jiki can do cool things in "fair" decks. I use it to copy Siege-Gang Commanders all the time. Palinchron is only played to be stupid.
Definitely trust the RC more than WOTC.
WOTC has the reverse Midas touch.
So that means they are good…
@@furretthefuzzynoodle3896 uncontrollably turning gold to lead isn't a good thing.
This is me LMAO'ING @ ur life.
anon ymous he turned anything into gold
And he killed his daughter this way
Maybe do some research so you don’t look like such an asshole :)
@@furretthefuzzynoodle3896 turning her to shit wouldn't be any better.
Stay mad nerd.
anon ymous I’m sorry my higher intelligence is inconvenient for you. Have a nice day!
DJ: "People who created the format cannot express personal opinions that I disagree with personally"
I feel like DJ was acting entitled this whole episode. "Casual players in a casual format made to be casual make fun of competitive players occasionally, boo hoo" "Everyone should think cards I think are fun, are fun, no matter what" "Cards I like shouldn't be banned".
Divine Intervention was the first and foremost card I thought about for this topic. It's worse than everything else on the list, because its ONLY function is to make the entire game null and void for all players. At least the others can conceivably be justified as tools to help you win, even if they slow down the game to do so. Divine Intervention doesn't help anyone win, and thus, is only a tool for trolls trying to ruin a game.
I played a new Chainer deck, I had Contagion in the deck to enable a combo turn.. First time I drew it I felt I needed to cast it to slow the game down and realised as the game went on that I probably shouldn't play the card in the group I'm with.
The best I did to all my Decks was to remove all tutors and fetch. The main reason at first was because it is annoying and long to always be searching in your library, but the reason now is variance : what I enjoy the most in commander is the variance brought by singleton 100 cards decks, and it is a lot more fun when you actually don't see the same cards of your deck every game. Even lands
Card you dont play "NARSET"
Basically, the rule is not to build a troll deck. Every card in your deck should somehow push towards a serious win condition. You shouldn't build a deck that is focused on keeping Winter Orb out without some kind of land destroying thing that will eventually deal 40 dmg to your opponent. Otherwise, you're just drawing out a game in a way so that no one can win.
This man is 100% correct and people who don't think so are trolls
Would you count an entirely unstable-based deck as a troll deck? I mean, my playgroup is just me and my friends, and I have been given permission to build it, if that helps...
@@eamonbell6378 It is not a troll deck as long as it has a clear win condition that the deck can push towards. It has some pretty cards including token generation last I checked and could work in something like a deck that tries to rush down your opponent. You could probably combine it with a card like Epic Struggle and just flat out win with token generation. My friend once used a Karametra enchantment deck that included Epic Struggle, Felidar Sovereign, and Helix Pinnacle as alternate win conditions before.
It's only a troll deck if it's a deck without a win condition. I mainly play commander, but here are some examples of decks that are not troll despite being absolutely frustrating to play against. Phenax mill is a win condition. Zo-Zu land denial is a win condition. Nekusar draw for damage is a win condition.
I'm quite new in my playgroup. And someone called out 'I'm grabbing my Niv-Mizzet deck', suddenly a lot of people grabbed a different deck and also advised me to grab my best deck.
He almost went off 3 times between turn 3 till 8. I've never seen so much counters & removal on just 1 deck.
What I'm trying to say, in commander almost everything is possible, but if you grab your best deck or a certain deck, just call it out. It's up to your playgroup to keep it in check in my opinion.
I do play a jank infinite counterspell combo in a hanna deck. I do make sure everyone knows how it works and what it is before playing and if they're cool with it, just so it doesn't come out of left field. It's also purposefully super janky and disruptable.
Saying "there are many cards that feel bad" isn't really an argument against these specific cards. Yes, those cards are "feel bad" cards. From what I gather Sheldon likes big things to happen, but not if it involves infinite combos that kill everyone or cards that go "ok you're dead now" on early turns.
I had a friend that played Augustin IV, and couldn't understand why everyone hated playing against his deck. His win-con was taking infinite turns to make everyone draw their libraries. To me (and probably Sheldon) nothing is worse than "I play this card, the game is now over b/c I won". Craterhoof and Triumph of Hordes are similar, but at least they require attacking in order to win. A (small) step must be taken in order to win, and I think that's the key difference.
I'm not sure how to describe it, but having someone Exsanguinate everyone for 15 and win feels better than having someone Exsanguinate everyone for infinity. One is a big finisher, the other is a combo last step.
Edit: Wound Reflection is there b/c you can just kill everyone by dealing with 1/2 of their life. More "ok you're dead now" cards.
Edit 2: The argument for Biorhythm being banned is easy, board wipe + cheap creature + Biorhythm = game over. I don't get how this is in question.
this is why edh is shit.
Cards you should not play
1. Saddle bags
That’s it
I don't play Rhystic Study because I hate constantly asking everyone "Did you pay the one?"
I like to say "can I draw?" better
I agree, I play a constantly evolving mono blue deck and there are some cards I wont play on principle of unfun and slow play. Consecrated sphinx, rhystic, etc.
@@purplytony7375 How do either of those cards slow down the game? It's literally just card draw.
@@derekwalter4238 it's more just a constant effect that everyone has to be reminded of, consecrated sphinx is less of an offender and I'd probably give it a pass, but rhystic studies is a "did you pay the one?" which, especially for casual players, puts them in the tank questioning how many cards is okay for you to draw. I like standstill in my deck instead of rhystic because it has a similar effect and promotes slowing down so I can stabilize, and it doesn't hurt that it's a one time effect instead of annoyance in my opponents' heads
Replace “did you pay the one?” with “ok I’ll draw a card”.
I think his list is based on hose-yness. It’s not about raw power like you said but because he’s focused on it as a social format he’s worried about insta kill stuff and takes-a-long-time stuff. Makes sense
I'll admit I've had to cut cards because I've felt too spikey. I run a deck in both multi and 1v1. Ended up cutting ravages of war and only running Armageddon. I only run Armageddon to properly deal with hard control decks, I play the deck depending on the setting, like in multi I usually sit in the corner and go wall beat down but if it's a spikey group I go right for the combo hammer, because if I don't someone else is going to do something like that
No need to raise alarm. Sheldon’s only human with his own emotions & his likes/dislikes. I sit absolutely fine with him ranting on those & still trust very much that the committee isn’t just a pet on his leash.
If I would b concerned with any body that appears to b close to totally uncheckd, I’d easily point to WotC. Keeps harping on the “Feedback Era” & that they’r listenin...Come on!
The recent 2 Masters set (bad arrangement of release dates & bad bad name in “Iconic”...”iconic”...really?), Commander 2018 (price & quality), recent spates of exclusiv products not distributed world wide for most players to access, the upcomin “Ultimate” Masters (“Ultimate”...really? How else should the next better Masters set b named? & that MSRP). & no, WotC is pullin all the dirty tricks that the recent exclusiv, low-distribution products still sell, so how easy is it to make them listen when the world at large won’t veto with our wallets?
Sheldon & Team deserves a good pat on the shoulders for the many good years.
WotC deserves...a sharp slap on the hand, if not straight in the face, as a wake-up call