Is Pokemon a Good Competitive Game?
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- čas přidán 5. 12. 2023
- Competitive Pokemon is infamous for it's luck-based gameplay where the Better player doesn't always win. Compared to skill intensive games like Street Fighter, Melee or Counter-Strike, this can seem like a terrible Competitive experience.
All the barriers to entry when getting into the official Competitive Format, VGC, aren't great either.
However, I think there are many advantages to Pokemon as a Competitive experience, thanks to high quality fan-made Battle simulators, Resources and Rulesets.
I've played this game for over a Decade, and while sometimes its frustrating, and I look at other more Skillful looking games with envy sometimes, I'm glad this is the game I chose to obsess over.
CZcamsrs Mentioned:
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im a blisy Stream footage -
• GRASPING for MASTER BA...
Competitive Pokemon IS Pay To Win (if you don't cheat...)
by im a blisy -
• Competitive Pokemon IS...
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The below text is very relevant to many people.
Game Freak just blew all other online game development schools out of the water with this incredible new 2022 release. You're gonna need to get a game design degree online, and FAST, if you want to make a better game than this. Not even the best strategy games android reddit could hold a candle to this breathtaking Next generation competitive Pokemon experience.
Scream Tail is the Jigglypuff of our wildest dreams. It has been buffed with some higher statistics and the incredible ability, Protosynthesis. Gen 9 Competitive Pokemon wouldn't be the same without this powerful pink blob. He kinda looks like someone I met in one of my game design and development courses.
Gen 9 Pokemon Showdown is one of the greatest online gaming sites in history. From Pikachu and Charizard, to Palafin and Roaring Moon, The new Pokemon games, Pokemon Scarlet & Violet, have introduced a lot of new faces. Can I succeed in one of the best android games of all time? If so, I'm gonna get myself a Walmart bakery Pokemon cake to celebrate.
Gholdengo is a Pokemon made of pure gold. He must have done some online business management courses to accumulate all that wealth. Or perhaps he might want to learn how to make money playing video games on CZcams. In any case, he's a powerful metagame force, with absolutely no interest in online game development schools.
#competitivepokemon #pokemonshowdown #gen9 #gen3 - Hry
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Tysm for the links, def checking these out!
Once in random battles, I got paralyzed four times in a row and in the same turns, my opponents missed all their hurricanes. Truly the game of all time.
This happens so often it's not even funny.
I once had a guy land 4 sheer colds in a row. I wasn't even mad, it was wild. Gen 7 AG really did hit different.
I love turns with net zero benefit on both sides. When it only happens to you, you get upset. When it only happens to your foe, it’s hype. When it happens to both simultaneously, it’s hilarious. Absolutely nothing is gained or lost and it’s just a good time.
@@thequagiestsire ~1000 turns of nothing but switching and the occasional attack.
😂😂😂
Appreciate the shout out, this was a fantastic video.
I also think something to touch on is the nature of VGC itself being more difficult than smogon as well. You really can’t take it seriously only online. The cost and time of travel make getting into it just as prohibitive as playing a fighting game, like you said.
I think the delve into what makes Pokémon unique, where both players take their turn simultaneously is really awesome.
I also think focusing on the community is really important. So often do casual fans perceive competitive as this toxic culture, when really, I’ve met some of my best friends in the world from competitive mons.
I met one of my groomsmen when I was 14 playing DP OU on shoddy.
A community is what you make of it, and it’s mostly positive in competitive mons.
I agree when, compared to games as toxic as league of legends or magic the gathering I've found the pokemon community to be extremely nice, helpful and welcoming, even if the actual game itself requires you to have an encyclopedic knowledge of bulbapedia to get anywhere
I feel Pokemon games need more custom options from within the game. It's crazy that Pokemon has had native online capabilities since 2006 and we still don't have stuff like custom lobbies, custom rulesets, spectator mode. Features that many PvP games have had since the 90s.
Nintendo is notorious for being behind times on shit likes this. Their online servers sucks and they make weird decisions for multiplayer all the time. Even games like smash that are mostly made to be multiplayer have horrible servers and shitty matchmaking systems. Also unless ur playing on smogon or r hacking in ur team, playing comp Pokémon is insanely time consuming and tedious. I just feel like Nintendo has been pretty out of touch with its core audience for a whille
@@orkodork2764it’s not Nintendo they don’t make Pokémon games they just publish them.
@@Magic_Ice I think they're saying nintendo because this happens a lot with games on the switch, and also they make nintendo switch online and they decide for it to be suboptimal, so i don't think its a stretch to see that nintendo probably has some fault
Yeah I really feel this one, like seriously. Me and a buddy are bothcasual competitive players so we like to pit our teams against each other a lot, and often times our battles can drag out for a long time and we had several matches get ended prematurely thanks to the 20 minute clock, it's really annoying we cant turn that off. Its perfectly fine for tournaments as they need move things along, but we should be allowed to customize the rulesets in game otherwise.
@orkodork2764 Its definitely Nintendo, looking at games like Smash, not only are they behind but they are ACTIVELY fighting the progress on any potential development of the competitive scene, and while Nintendo's treatment of Smash is what's notorious they've generally had a pretty hostile stance to people making competitive scenes of their games in general
If one were to describe the RNG factor within that of Pokemon, "Unfortunate" would not even begin describe such series.
Anyone that tries would not give it a fond farewell
We meet again lmao
Pokémon RNG actively goes after the player and goes out of it's way to cheat the player as much as possible. i know because i see it daily, shame on pokemon for treating the player base like that.. shame on you game freak.. pokemon should learn from monster hunter and such. their games are skill based.. not screw over the player based
My issue with competitive is officially its doubles but they are like no double battles in the actual games ive learned more about double battles from rom hacks and fan games then the official games
it looks like the second part of the SV dlc is gonna center around double battles which is a bit cool
Yeah, the gameplay in the games make it seem like singles should be the main format. However, according to people who play some of the indigo disk early, it’s mostly double battles and is overall more difficult than the main game. Which is a nice step I guess
And the teams will have competitive strategies @@patatanavidenya
@@XParasiteOctolingI wonder if it's actually difficult or only difficult since they aren't use to double battles
That bothers me about the main games too, and its frustrating because the solution seems obvious - add a toggle in the options menu to have singles only, doubles only, or both. Then have 'both' on by default where the ratio of singles to doubles is basically identical to what it is now. That wouldn't even be very difficult on the technical side to implement unless they go the extra mile of changing teams and moves around based on the choice (certainly ideal at least for boss trainers, but not necessary)
There is a joke where Pokémon will never be an e sports because if you miss focus blast you won't be getting food for a month
I prefer that you say Heat Wave. That would more painful and hilarious.
Missing focus miss is expected it's in the name
@@Connowot387 I forgot which one was it
It's worth noting that fighting games haven't always been like that. Corporate tournaments used to run with way worse rules, and games used to have a bunch of content locked behind sometimes massive grinds. It mainly changed because players complained loudly and supported grassroots events to the point that they typically eclipsed corporate ones (This was true up until evo got bought out I believe, tho even now I think the largest grassroots event (combo breaker probably) is bigger than most corporate ones) which gives the community a sort of leverage.
Didn't know all those details. Im quite new to FGs. That's pretty amazing
I need a documentary on this.
Smash Ultimate still does this.
@@jimothycoolmany rpgs have big grinds in multiplayer including mmo types, it's a genre thing because the grind is part of the rpg experience. Not saying it's fun, but temtem has no rng and it's format is doubles as well.
@@Dabrownman1812 But not in competitive settings where player skill should be the only thing that matters. Take World of Warcraft for example, sure, grinding for gear, consumables etc. is part of the main MMO, but for any official competitions like the Mythic Dungeon Invitationals all of that is removed.
Find any copy of the MDI rules and you'll find mention of a tournament realm all participants will create their characters on, the details are:
"Any templated character made on the realm will automatically be set at level 70 and will spawn next to special vendors that have been setup there, who will sell Gear, Consumables, Enchants, Keystones, and Gems; everything you need to compete in the Mythic Dungeon International. You will also find an NPC here that will let you teleport to any dungeon"
Basically the equivalent of genning perfect Pokemon, they 'gen' perfect gear for participants. They do this so that the only thing tested in a competition about running difficult dungeons as fast as possible is combat skill and strategy, not how long they grind for gear in the main MMORPG.
There's a lot to criticize TPC for, but the one thing that I will at least give them credit for is leaving Showdown alone. You mention Melee towards the end, and it's an amazing game with a fantastic scene that I'm so happy I've gotten to be a part of, but it's also a difficult game to be so passionate about since Nintendo are always trying to find ways to put it down.
If TPC had the same relationship with their competitive fanbase as Nintendo does with the Smash community, Showdown would likely have been shut down (or at least barred from using any official assets), and playing Pokémon competitively would become a nightmare. For as much as it feels like everyone involved with making the games neglect the competitive side, at the very least they're not actively fighting against it. Of course that's a bit of a silly thing to praise any company for, but it's worth being thankful for considering what's happening with Smash, which is really not that far removed from Pokémon.
Yeah I remember one of the Showdown admins on Reddit saying how TPC have and do communicate with the team and given their approval for it to exist as long as Showdown follow some set guidelines. Iirc they allow showdown to exist as long as 1) Its not for profit. No ads or monetisation to profit off TPC content. 2) No mobile app. Since Nintendo were/are looking to expand into the mobile space and don't want unlicensed competition. 3) No implementing Pokemon or features before their official release (e.g When the Gen 9 dex and assets leaked in its entirety before its release, PS cannot implement them until the games official release).
All of which are honestly extremely fair criteria. For Nintendo it is extremely surprising how lax they are concerning Showdown (thank god!).
@@GenGaara I think TPC realizes that there are a lot of important CZcamsrs who use Showdown and get/keep people interested in mons in general. If they shut down Showdown, they lose a large portion of their consumers.
@@mr.sandman7339Yes, this is very true. If not for showdown CZcams content getting me back into the series I likely would not have bought like 200+ dollars worth of the cartridge games… idk how aware of the benefit they are though, since they used to copywrite strike every video with a Z move animation, honestly if that hadn’t happened to annoy me I might have actually got in in gen 6 rather than 8, which would have made them like another few hundred bucks on me..
6:51 many are saying this
that's lichess
Pokémon games absolutely need more options that make the competitive scene accessible, which has happened slowly over time (destiny knot buff, hyper training, mints, etc.), but the developers don't seem to have enough time to finish their games, let alone make them more accessible competitively. Maybe the developers working on the games do care about this, but other aspects of the games take a higher priority, and this problem never gets addressed within each game's 1-2 year, crunch-filled development cycle. It's just another way that the yearly release schedule is hurting the games, despite Game Freak's efforts to improve things over time.
There's a great video "Dear Developers, Stop Listening to Pros" which in good part makes the point that the games that get the most lively competitive scenes aren't necessarily the most balanced or well designed but the ones people already play and are invested in. Pokemon does already need a hell of a lot of clauses, bans and rules to make it work, but honestly unless it was straight up completely random it would still be popular because it's such a big franchise. As it happens it does have strategy even through all the faff, and that's plenty enough. The singles scene is massive and that's entirely because of organic community interest, it would sure be easier and more comfortable if people were provided that on-ramp in the games the way it is for fighting games these days, with tools and good introduction to mechanics instead of the extremely surface level experience of playing the games normally, but that's clearly not where Nintendo wants it.
Good point
What does Nintendo want
@@dandrecollier800money
@@dandrecollier800 Keep the franchise in the public consciousness, do the minimum to cater to as broad an audience as possible.
The mainline games aren't even where the money is made, that's merchandise. They're not keeping a close eye on the competitive health and mandating the devs to care about it either. They could, but I'd have to agree with them it's not worth the effort monetarily. We competitive players and observers are a tiny minority.
But the most likely competitive scenes are games like StarCraft, Counterstrike and DotA that have nothing to do with pre-existing investment. That point is incorrect.
One thing I'm extremely thankful for despite Game Freak and TPC's less than stellar track record when it comes to engaging with their community is that they never once showed any sign of wanting to shutdown Pokémon Showdown. If they don't want to provide an easy and seemless way to get into competitive battles, at least they're allowing the fans to do it themselves rather than striking them down with a DMCA like they did for a few fangames.
Maybe some people would disagree about being thankful for this when they could improve so many aspects of their brand management, but I'm an optimist by nature, I can't help but want to focus on the positives.
Competitive Pokemon does not have the best reputation in the world of E-sports.
A competitive game with so many high various RNG elements and balance issues is kind of a hard sell
High variance RNG elements and balance issues is kind of a hard sell
There’s also a significant divide in the competitive Pokémon community
Some players prefer the official competitive format endorsed by game freak and Nintendo, VGC, which primarily focuses on double battles
And some prefer to play 6V6 single battles
When it comes to randomness in games, it's important to make a distinction between randomness in input, and randomness in output.
Basically, are the options you have available random, or are the results of your decisions random?
For an example of the former, look at Magic the Gathering and its competitors. The cards you draw, which represent your options, are random. It is your job to figure out how to use those options to win.
For an example of the latter, Pokemons accuracy system is a good example. You always have Rock Slide available to you, but there is a 10% chance it just doesn't work when you click it.
Randomness in output can feel very bad in this regard. You can have done everything right, but the game decides you lost anyway. It feels like a loss of control, and thus uncompetitive.
Randomness in input, by contrast, usually leaves players with a more empowered feeling. "I did the best I could, with what I was given."
Food for thought, and a useful thing to look out for when evaluating games.
Temtem doesnt have randomness in output
A joke game to illustrate the pitfalls of randomness in output was "Rando Chess". Basically, you play a game of chess. At the end of the game, whoever lost the game of Chess rolls a 6-sided die. If they roll a 6, they win instead!
The optimal strategy is still to win the chess game. But sometimes, even when you played optimally, you still lose.
I have severe motor disabilities and eat shit in most competitive games, and so any sort of melee or guilty gear pro dream is off the table even if i shelled out for a boxx.
Because of you linking places like mushi and then a month later advr, and the resources of how to get better and accessibility of Pokémon, I have in 5 months gone from someone who just knew the type chart to a actual decent player.
My first opening, advr, got I squeaked out top 32, and a 1755 4th place ladder peak, and am proud of myself for a accomplishment in a video game and that wouldn't have been possible if not for you and others creating valuable resources and communities, as well as the various barriers of entry and lack thereof. The best part is, I feel like it took myself clicking well even if a few ice beams froze along the way. I spent hours scouting and making notes and it paid off.
I sometimes also wonder if this is worth it, but your explanation here is such a potent one alot of Pokémon fans kinda forget when they get haxxed, and I'm glad this is a feeling long term ci players feel as well as newer ones like me.
Ramble comment over. Thank you for being fucking awesome
A friend of mine who is extremely good at chess told me that he thinks the randomness inherent to Pokemon makes the competitive experience better than chess. He said so commonly in chess, you’ll know who will win the game 20-25 turns before the game is over, and there’s absolutely nothing the opponent can do about it. Instead, not knowing exactly what move your opponent will click in a Pokemon game-or if hax comes into play, you can’t be 100% confident in a Pokemon game that the game is a foregone conclusion until the last couple of turns (with rare exceptions). The winning player still needs to think carefully while the losing player can play for higher variance or unpredictable swings to try to comeback.
Additionally, he said that two people playing with the same team will rarely play the same game twice while two chess players playing the same opening with extremely commonly play the same game twice. He said it gets monotonous to play the exact same board positions, knowing exactly what the result is, and hoping for the opponent to make a bad move in order to have a different experience. His conclusion was that while chess is a more consistent game, and the better players always wins, it’s not as fun without the unpredictability and randomness emblematic of Pokemon.
Competitive pokemon has existed purely in spite of every roadblock GF has put in front of it. Even now with all of the additional tools added to make things easier, you still often need multiple pokemon games which often require you to have multiple consoles to play those games on, which also often require you to play through the entire story across multiple games. Even with all of the additional help the barrier for anyone to reasonably be able to get a competitive team together on official hardware is still far too unreasonably high.
as a HUGE fgc and pokemon head i was so not ready for the start but it was very welcome. it’s a completely different experience and i would welcome more intermixing of the two communities as (in my opinion) they are the most relating esports. both have a lot of similarities, with randomness being valued but calculatable, both relying on strong interactions for snowballing into success, and having the mental fortitude to keep your lead as strong as possible.
I believe the luck-based elements gives the gameplay some flavor, while on tournaments it's unfair by all means, when you are elo scaling luck tends to balance out as you play a lot of games, so only your skill and team building end mattering.
Also, the luck element helps players picking their own style, I'm the kind of person that prefers to pick surf over hydro pump since the 100% accuracy well deserves a loss of power, other players have the opposite mentality which gives a lot of flavor to the game, taking calculated risks is an evidence of skill and knowledege.
Also, a huge part of pokemon is fishing for lucky chances (Ice beam freeze for example or the overwhelming scald burn) but sometimes you don't need to be lucky to posses a threat, for example, Zapdos has a 30% nasty chance of para if you hit it with a contact move, maybe you are lucky and the 30% never happens to you, but that risk will shape your battle planning even if not a single paralysis happens, again, chances are risks, some players excel at taking them and win, others try to never rely on them and earn consistent wins, that's a huge part of this game's diversity.
Edit: Typo (Lost my heart :( )
You got your heart back. 😊
I once missed 5 hydros in a row and i will always pick surf now.
@@TourFaintHaha, I feel that. 🙃
But honestly, it depends on which Pokémon you're targeting with the attack. If Surf isn't strong enough to 2HKO a common special wall in the tier you're playing or 2HKO a specific Pokémon from the opponent's squad in a draft league setting, then it's reasonable to opt for Hydro Pump despite the risk. ^^
I still think, after all of the stuff GF has implemented into the games still isn't enough for players to get into comp Pokémon. There really isn't any official guides in the games or anything that mentions EVs, IVs, and the like. I feel like they need to add a few more things before they can be easy enough to go into.
It's always been wild to me that the big central quest the player is sent on at the start of the game is usually to complete the Pokedex, which is a Pokemon encyclopedia, but the Pokédex tells you basically nothing. It just gives some flavor text and the location you can find the mon. It really should tell you things like EV yields.
I feel like they shot themselves in the foot early on by treating breeding as some mysterious thing. That's the perfect mechanic to explain IVs with. There's so many organic ways to key people into these mechanics it's shocking the games just don't. Like with EVs, all they have to say is "a Pokemon that defeats a fast Pokemon may grow faster, and a Pokemon that defeats a Pokemon with high HP may get high HP," and that's the mechanic in a nutshell. It shouldn't be some mysterious mechanic people stumble on by accident or have to out of their way to find out. It is literally the mechanic behind raising Pokemon and the game should take great pains to tell people how it works.
I just realized they can work that into the game so seamlessly. A professor can study the potential of Pokémon and blatantly mention how EVs work and how defeating specific trainers give Pokemon EVs. The plot could have been some tournament, where it makes sense to unleash the potential of Pokemon in battle. The ultimate villain would be a person who is illegally doping Pokémon and calls them natty, and the Team this time are fans of this villain who believe in his words. Said doping also justifies the climactic villain leader battle where the Pokémon is minmaxed ineffectively. Meanwhile, every other trainer would have been pushing for natural limits, like training their Pokemon on specific types of Pokémon for EVs and competitive and creative movesets. In one fell swoop, it justifies competitive movesets, the transparency of how to train Pokemon, and also has a compelling Pokemon story behind it. And they left behind the perfect chance because Galar is a tournament story.
Another important thing the game doesn't tell the player: exact numbers regarding moves, abilities and items. Let's read the description for the Assault Vest:
"An item to be held by a Pokémon. This offensive vest boosts the holder's Sp. Def stat but prevents the use of status moves."
It wouldn't hurt to specify the percental amount of 50%. Another example is the burn chance of Scald; imagine a new player assumes it's 10% or something just because the description is vague af. 💀
I think thats because they're primarily trying to keep Pokemon a kids game at the core. I discovered Pokemon as a kid and while i loved battling, i didnt care about anything EV, IV or any of the sorts. Not until i got older
it's worth mentioning that there is no perfect competitive game. even in chess, going first or playing white has a slight advantage over going second.
this is an incredibly well done analysis and it captures perfectly the distinction of pokemon competitive, especially smogon, compared to other more mainstream esports.
i dont play pokemon that competitively but i enjoy just booting up games in my favorite formats and just playing, and that experience is the perfect balance of casual and competitive that i just happen to have always wanted.
i feel like i would show this to some of my friends to tell them what makes pokemon so different from other games and could serve as justification for my interests
thanks for the good content jimothy :D
I remember putting together an in game team during the XY era. It took quite some time as I was in college, but eventually I got something I was proud of.
Then they announced Mega Rayquaza.
I should have just played that team on Showdown 😂
If you want a exciting turn based game Advance Wars is perfectly suited for that & it also has competitive site like showdown called Advance Wars by web.There is also rng in that game but they Don't have that big of a impact.
I've heard about that!
until you hit the 95-104 damage roll on a lot of transport vehicles.
Yup, gotta love the flip coins on transports
Honestly I even think the luck in AW is actually good for the game, since it forces you to rearrange the order that you move your troops in just in case you don't actually breach the enemy defenses.
In terms of status conditions, I feel like it can be fixed by giving more pokemon Heal Bell, just make it a TM and increase the distribution
There's also Refresh, Lum Berry, Safeguard, Magic Bounce, Misty Terrain
Let's remember that GameFreak introduced Covert Cloak this gen. Whenever I play a draft league match against an opponent with strong Serene Grace or Scald users I'm very thankful that we've got this new option.
Great video, although I was left with the impression you've made a stronger case for Pokemon Showdown than actual Pokemon.
pokemon
Pokemon.
I once got a turn 1 double freeze with my A. Ninetales' Blizzard. Basically won the game with one move, felt dirty
In game theory the term perfect vs imperfect information gets bandied about. That distinction you highlight between chess and pokemon. Definitely a lot of interesting plays to be made planning around it.
I think what pokemon could use is more conditional control around probability.
Such as more moves that say “Crit if…” and if your turn was canceled by sleep, confused, or paralysis your next move is safe or something. I also think more randomness that comes from getting things that are *different* versus good or bad could be fun. Like when a move sharply raises or decreases a random stat, or gmax butterfree inflicting random status
But yeah absolutely agree that the games have so many obstacles, hoops, and vestigial aspects that add friction or unease of use for players
Enter...temtem. doubles format creature capture through the entire game and you can play the main story with a friend.
Moves hit as there is no accuracy stat.
Honestly I think RNG can be replaced with incremental conditions and more status effects.
Such as for example Fire-type moves apply burn counters, and the actual burn becomes applied only when the burn counter reaches certain threshold.
Other examples maybe Focus Energy guarantees crit on next turn instead of increasing Crit %.
And PP itself is already a viable way to balance stronger moves with weaker ones.
Another big thing that doesn't lend itself well to the actual VGC format is, where on earth are all the double battles in the games?!
It feels like Gens 6-9 have virtually no double battles. Yeah sure, not every game has to be like Colosseum (although...), but at least have it like Gens 3 and 4 where there are a fair amount of double battles
It's kinda no wonder singles is popular
Singles is popular only becuase is easier to play...
If now most battles become doubles, everybody would be complaining about it...
Ppl got so used to singles and is much easier that it does not make ppl willing to switch...
on the note of RNG in competitive games, I'd just like to say that RNG isn't inherently a bad thing for competitive games. but good games and bad games handle this aspect very differently. my personal example is Legends of Runeterra (LoR) vs. Plants vs. Zombies Heroes (PvZH).
both are relatively complex cardgames with much skill involved in both deckbuilding and piloting, but PvZH is designed to be extremely RNG-based ("highrolly" and "swingy", as we call it). almost every action involves a chance of things going horrifically wrong in your favor or in your opponent's favor to RNG. in PvZH there's a mechanic called "block meter" which fills up by 1/2/3 charges randomly per hit, and if it fills to 8 charges, it nullifies the damage of the hit that filled the meter **and** gives the player a random superpower (1-cost spell that can either be held to play later or play right now for free). the block meter is atrocious design in terms of competitive gameplay, because the chances to roll high numbers and block in 3 hits is relatively high, as well as the unpredictable nature of the superpower generated. the game also has many other ways to invoke RNG, such as "conjure" (add a random card to hand from a pool of that type), and if you suddenly conjure something that wins the game on the spot, it's not funny for anyone. such is the nature of PvZH, both "highrolly" and "swingy".
LoR, however, handles RNG very differently. in fact, the mechanic of "manifest" in this game, though similar in nature to conjure (generate randomly-selected resource), is handled not by *giving* the player a random card the way PvZH does, but instead shows the player a pool of 3 (by default) and letting the player choose from it, similar to Hearthstone's "discover". the game also doesn't have any form of block meter that can screw up your luck either. and even when it does invoke "manifest" it does so in a controlled way. take, for instance, Reggie aka Ferros Financier. it "manifest"s a 6+ cost spell ... *from your regions* (region, here, means deck color). it generates a random resource, yes, but it limits the manifest pool to the player's deck types. if your deck is shadow isles (mainly based around killing things, either yours or your opponent's) then you will get things from that region. the manifested card, is, therefore, much less likely to be something you're not supposed to have in the first place (like, a stat-buff card from Demacia, a color mainly based around having units and winning trades) and only helps you as something you luckily got. thus, the game lowers the possibilities of something "swingy" and "highrolly" even if RNG is involved. PvZH, however, usually has its "conjure" pools as wide as possible, and the game picks it for you on top of it. thus, RNG doesn't really help you or allows your opponent to play around it - this is bad RNG design.
tldr: RNG is something that can spice up your games, but it's important to handle it carefully, especially if your game wants to succeed on the competitive front. handle it carefully, and the game will be enjoyable. handle it badly, and you'll find either yourself or your opponent malding over bad luck. it's just like over-seasoning a dish.
and Pokemon... very much over-seasons its dish, in my opinion.
As someone who’s primarily a fighting game player who also happens to enjoy smogon singles, I thought this was a really interesting video. I understand the envy of a game that was my by its devs to actually be enjoyed competitively, but honestly if there was one thing I wish the FGC, it would be the dedication pokemon fans had to creating resources for new players to learn and enjoy their game, especially older gen fans. With the exception of some of the arcsys games on dustloop, info can honestly be pretty hard to come by for even the biggest fighting games, making learning difficult for less experienced players. Thanks for your take.
Great video Jimothy, One thing I think is undervalued is that Pokemon works as an excellent spectator sport. It has a simple objective with an intuitive type chart, often designs help to make the Pokemon type easy to understand and can sometimes inform their function (such as a steel bird Skarmory being defensively focused).
From there, any knowledge gaps or advanced strategies can be handled by commentators who can easily keep up with the game due to the slower pace of things. Finally, due to having a large number of available options, there are many opportunities for unusual Pokemon and low-tier heroes to do crazy memorable things.
Mr. Jimothy Cool you have done it. You have officially released your best video yet.
I always enjoy your videos and am subbed to both of your channels with another account as you always provide High quality Content. Watching ADV Revival has become my daily ritual by now.
I just feel the love you have for the game and get swept up by it.
You make solid points in all of your comparisons and as a vivid Fighting Gamer I want to properly welcome you to the FGC. Your iron Cammy will be golden in no time :D
I doubt you will be uploading videos about SF6 (or any other FG for that matter), but if you do, rest assured at least I will watch them.
Either way enjoy your time with the game, and if you have any questions you can reach out to me or anyone else in the FGC, we will gladly help.
Thanks for all the hype and wisdom you bring to me as a spectator of competitive Pokémon. I also appreciate you highlighting other pokétubers.
Have the greatest of days, may you forever be save from the threat of Iron Mugulis.
"Unfortunate" doesn't begin to describe my series, this game rewards blind luck and nothing else, I am beyond convinced at this point.
After getting completely tooled by scheduling with my opponent changing times on me last minute and refusing to provide confirmation prior to the day of the match as to play times, losing this way somehow felt even worse than I had thought possible.
Honestly the thing I like the most about pokemon is the community. All of the custom tournaments that people make (like your ADV Revival tournament) are what keeps the game fun.
Really cool vid! Thanks for the shout out!
This video is one of your best imo. Great work!
One other big thing for me personally is the accessibility inherent to the game. It’s one of very very few games that are both highly prediction-based and mechanically deep while not being physically demanding in any way. Nothing tests your reaction time or your ability to do hard inputs consistently, which is huge for disabled players like me who can only play Melee for about a dozen hours a week 😂
Imagine if you were playing smash bros but had to spend 100 hours breeding a training a perfect Mario or else you'll just be playing with 20% less damage and health.
One important aspect of RNG in competitive games is that they add a level of inevitability to the situation changing. In Pokemon, recover stalling can be disrupted by a critical hit, and in a card game every turn you don't finish off your opponent is a turn where they could potentially topdeck an answer.
i love Melee and i go to almost all the local tourneys in my region, but i'm kinda busy rn with college and i don't have that much time to practice
on the other hand, i started playing VGC recently and it feels much less time consuming for me so that's cool
Melee and Pokemon compliment each other nicely. Both involve mind games and reward reads, but Melee is tactile while Pokemon is logical. Basically, when my fingers hurt I play Pokemon, and when my brain hurts I play Melee.
I really love teambuilding in Pokemon, but man, I honestly can only play the game so much until I get tilted at RNG.
Like with a lot of other skillful games that incorporate a lot of RNG, the better player will still win more often. The same people can consistently get better results, indicating that there is definitely an adequate amount of individual skill involved. But at the same time, the variance within games that the rng results in is quite extreme and very unpleasant to have a bad day with; bricking in a card game can leave you helpless until you lose the game, but at least you can tell you're screwed from the start. The RNG also isn't baked into every mechanic; you don't 'roll for damage' when your monster attacks an opponent's monster in a card game and only kill it half the time, or have your effect fail 10-30% of the time just because. The biggest instance of variance in card games is usually your and your opponent's opening hand; RNG has the biggest impact when you both draw a bunch of random cards off the top of your decks and those determine most of what you have to work with for the next few turns.
Meanwhile in Pokemon, the RNG occurs throughout the game, and is essentially relevant every single turn and in almost every interaction. Your move has a chance to miss; if it doesn't, your damage roll might be low; if it isn't, you might crit, or you might inflict a status effect; each of these could alter the course of a match, significantly if they just happen to occur at the right time. It always feels like RNG is a looming threat that could screw a player over, and it certainly plays a very significant role. In card games, there's only so many unlucky things that can happen; there's only so many 'perfect card to draw/perfect card combination to have' to stop what a player is trying to do. But in Pokemon, there are just so many different ways you can get screwed over. Everything already mentioned was just the tip of the iceberg--what about sleep, paralysis, freeze, confusion, flinching, stat drops, rng abilities? You're not even dealing with just damage rolls and crits and status and missing.
The biggest thing that's crucial to understand is that the impact of this rng is HIGH. Incredibly high. If you miss your move, you lose a whole TURN. If you get flinched, paralyzed, same thing. You lose a full turn for each of these, and in a game where getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd is incredibly common that makes the impact of skillful play feel greatly diminished. Again, over the course of many games the better player will consistently win more. They will also get to make plenty of game winning plays within individual matches, sometimes even relying/hedging against specifically this RNG. And that is skillful, and can be satisfying. But personally, I feel like this much RNG is just unncessary and way too much for a competitive game. I have no idea how I'd fix it at this point in Pokemon, but I think the amount of RNG is way past the 'healthy' threshold. Sometimes playing around RNG leads to cool moments, but I think it's way more frequent that playing around NOT RNG leads to cool moments, and the former case can still happen with smaller amounts of RNG.
No one is impressed by the feat of landing a 10% freeze/flinch/whatever to win an otherwise lost game, and it's never satisfying to watch the person who played better lose. These aren't outplays, they aren't intentional, and they aren't skillful.
Iron Mugulis told me freezing and flinching is skill
If players aren't willing to make a prosciutto sandwich and run around in circles for hours to compete, then they're not a true competitor. I am very smart.
I really like these sort of discussion videos, and would be interested in videos on topics outside of pokemon battles themself or other games, particularly fighting games
I think I fixed it. Pokemon, I mean. In the Pokemon fangame I'm working on I removed RNG from the outcome of battles and greatly overhauled the importance of Pokemon types and smart plays from the Trainer over high stats from the Pokemon.
Just wanted to say that I think it's very nice to see you trying out and getting into fighting games. Hope you keep at it, and try to not let all the losses get to you in the beginning. Hope you keep enjoying yourself.
If there was no RNG it would still be fun IMO, just different, assuming moves and mons are balanced around that accordingly. Tem tem has zero rng and I find it extremely fun n satisfying, but there is a primal part of my brain that gets dopamine when you get a timely critical hit in pokemon
I much prefer these more general video essays over specific Pokemon analyses.
The problem with comp Pokémon is that 90% of Pokémon are generally useless, and the 10% that are good, are used with the exact same move set everyone else uses. You end up facing the same 20 or 30 Pokémon every single game, you might face a couple people running different Pokémon but using the same move set. Which is mainly sleep moves, paralysis moves, fake out, wide guard, and ext. you end up having the same exact battles against different Pokémon making the gameplay actually fairly frustrating
Great video Jim! I'd love to see you to a video covering how to create a team. I'm a casual player that used to play Randoms a lot, but don't really know to go about creating a team for normal ladder.
Great analysis! I’m a SF6 player who enjoys Pokémon and I’ve been watching your ADV tourney. Keep up the great work!
Jimbo, you cooked here.
Loved the vid bro, exactly what i was thinkin and absolutely agree with this.
Dude I used to be super into Yugioh in middle school and now I'm falling deep into the rabbit hole of competitive pokemon and that comparison makes so much sense
You just dropped such a banger of a video that I think it may be the most insane video on the website
i love pokemon so much, but street fighter and fighting games are the true games of my soul. was not ready for probably the best pokemon yt channel to suddenly delve into the world of fighting games and make a lot of apt comparisons i’ve never thought of, good stuff jim
Jimothy cool randomly talking about fighting games was a nice surprise
Truth be told I don't think that in-game randomness is the only thing creating variance between games. Sure, high-level chess play can often see top-level players playing predetermined opening lines for over 20 moves, but unlike chess, pokemon doesn't have the same opening board state because players can choose their teams, and the simultaneous turns force players to predict their opponent's next move. Yes, there are elements of luck to both of these things, but players that are better in their understanding of the metagame trends, ability to comprehend the game state, and knowledge of their opponent's habits will all give them an edge in teambuilding and prediction. And while some predictions (both in the teambuilder and during the game) might as well be RNG, and all of these actions are ultimately determined by what the player chooses. You might not choose if a rock slide misses, but if it hits into an incoming swampert when you had a good double switch the whole time? That's your fault.
Furthermore, the fear of a "solved" metagame in pokemon is inherently unfounded. If a team, strategy, or specific pokemon becomes too common, like how people have started using maushold again to remove hazards in front of gholdengo, and if something truly is so dominant that bringing counterplay to it just isn't feasible or is way worse than just bringing the thing yourself? The community will ban it. VGC might not have bans, but they rotate formats every few months so things are always kept fresh.
Street Fighter 6 is a thriving community and it is cool to see you shout them out! But a lot like ADV that you put on, we in the Street Fighter community are doing something similar with the third iteration of SF, Third Strike! There's a grassroots, non-profit called the Jazzy Circuit where we put on competitive tournaments for Third Strike in-person, and online in NA with Fightcade 2. Definitely worth checking out for anyone out there wanting to get into old school Street Fighter. Dope video!
I told myself I would re-learn Third Strike again but I don't have the time to invest. Only old SF game I can easily go back to is SSF2T.
@@nathanlamont9920 SSF2T is godlike, gotta put respect on the OG.
Gen3Randombattle user here, started Gen3OU after your videos. Making so many new friends, improving so quick. I am so happy. Hi all of you who may recognise me. :)
Ps. My opinion: I like Gen 3 because I think it's a balance between skill, not so hard, nothing is automatically OP and you still have some luck factor. If you are not a salty player, you can enjoy this very much. Also, I think that without skill you can't win or improve. I find it balanced and easy, as it also does not take so much of your time and you can just play casual for free.
Thank you so much for making this. I have been feeling very upset with the choices Pokemon's developers have made to shape Gen 9, and it is nice to know that this community will persevere still.
i will say, i think what you said highlights for me the tedious aspects but also are the foundation of what makes it so rewarding. i agree 100% that the routes to take in order to get the competitively viable pokémon are grueling and inconvenient, however i think that also comes with the privilege of intense personal choice and experience. you get to pick the moveset ability species coverage stat distribution etc etc. things we all know and love pokémon for, and that in tandem with an on your toes style of game play for me is really satisfying. even though i have wanted to rue the day because of shitty RNG like getting flinched 3 times in a row i think it creates an environment where context and adaptability are incredibly important and i think those are two skills i really get fulfilled from exercising. even when i completely bomb on showdown watching my competitor pull off strategies i couldn’t have fathomed on my own makes it all the more motivating and creatively inspiring. but that definitely can be off set by a v unbalanced meta so it’s tricky. i think all in all pokémon is a good one because of the amount you can do with it. 2 completely different competitive formats is kind of cool to me and i’m sure there could be hundreds more if people had the resources. it’s a very adaptable game and i love it in spite of all the less fun parts. nice video ♡
if you like the simultaneous turn-based format of pokemon and fighting game gameplay you absolutely need to try a game called your only move is hustle. It's basically a combination of both of these elements, a simultaneous turn-based fighting game where you select your actions from a list kind of like a TAS, and try to predict what your opponent will do, and at the end of the match you get to see the insane anime battle you just had played back in real time which is always incredible to watch. The game is designed to encourage hard reads and airtight option selects (a fighting game term for an option that beats multiple options from the opponent), just like pokemon it's super rewarding to learn to recognize patterns and punish your opponent's every move. The game is only $5 on steam and has dozens of modded characters you can use, I highly recommend it to anyone who likes competitive pokemon and has even a passing interest in fighting games
Well, looks like im fishing for Ttar ancient power boosts today
As someone who's always said that competitive mons was more akin to a TCG than other video games/esports, ty so much for touching on that, validating my takes from 10~ years ago
RNG is an important part of decision-making. If every move had perfect accuracy, dealt a max damage roll, couldn't crit, and had no secondary effects, the game would would become much, much simpler. The RNG is a factor you should consider at all times. Sometimes, it'll screw you out of a game, but that's only in fringe cases that we over-remember because the human brain does that.
As a chess player, that's been enjoying ADV in part, thanks to you. It can be really frustrating when you get randomly frozen in a winning position or you get full para 4 times in a row. Same with crits.
It would be nice if the RNG was a bit less random, like "you are guaranteed to only para once every 3 moves."
You'd be able to play around these random effects more and I think it would somewhat reduce frustration.
Great video!
The importance of luck for the health of the game is a big talking point in Magic the Gathering so it’s cool to see it applied here, great points.
I’ve never thought about how Pokémon’s turn structure is somewhat unique. That’s really cool.
I haven’t played Gwent but I know one aspect that makes MtG generally considered a little less puzzle-solving and a little more interactive with the opponent is the inclusion of “instant speed”, with some restrictions, you can make plays on your opponents turn
This results in more bluffing and “playing around” what they could have. Reading what you think they can do on your turn and navigating it is a bit part of a lot of mtg games.
But there are plenty of games that are my turn your turn and it’s cool think about how Pokémon is different
I like how showdown records the information you’ve already seen. You tend to play at least 10 battles in a given day over the course of maybe an hour so the last thing you need to be doing is mixing up sets.
there's some interesting stuff about the barriers for fighting games you mentioned! with offline events, like you mentioned, it's expensive to have enough setups for things to run smoothly, so a lot of events are still running things on PS4s with input lag, which means that, weirdly, playing online can often be better or smoother than playing locally (although this still means that yes you do still need to meet pc and connection requirements)
with controllers, i really would argue that any controller really does work. leverless/hitbox style controllers were the only type to not win any event at this year's EVO, so while there is a lot of noise in the fgc about which controller is most optimal i don't think it really acts as a barrier (i played FGs for two years on a keyboard and had a great time lol)
My experience in a gen 9 VGC reg e showdown tournament, I was running a unique crit infernape team with torn-I for sunny day set, Chi-yu for a replacement sun boosted heat wave user, and other support mons like Tinkaton. First two games, got swept by choice banded H-arcanine with HH killing my tera grass infernape and torn which held a charti berry for THIS exact situation except no crit. the rest is history since chi-yu and Ogerpon-cornerstone was at the back.
I’ve wondered how it would be to create a (somewhat compromised) version of Pokemon, where there’s no randomness. Moves are changed to have either guaranteed secondary effects or no secondary effects at all, make all moves guaranteed to hit at the cost of their base power being multiplied by their original accuracy%, etc. I don’t know if there’s anything like this on Showdown, but I think it could be something interesting to explore.
Ice Beam with gauranteed Freeze every game.
I love this video
Once in random battles I went frozen > switch > para into full para > full para > flinch > opponent concede out of pitty.
I'm happy you got into Competitive Pokemon too. Especially Gen 3.
What a great video. Jim continuously proving What a great, creative and Well thought out youtuber he is
I thought about this many times but you put it really well. Really at its core Pokemon is an amazing game, the vast majority of its issues are from the developer's mindset. Even RNG would be more manageable if the numbers were better balanced.
Hey Jim, as you know from twitter I'm really into Yu-Gi-Oh.
The whole "reads" thing is absolutely basic in YGO and it's extremely important since we do have cards we can use during your opponent's turn and it's a game with incomplete information. I know you were talking about things like Hearthstone (where the amount of hidden information that's relevant during your turn is low), but these reads also apply to those games since you have to predict what your opponent can do next turn and react to it beforehand.
I get it's not a video about TCGs, but as you play a turn in a card game, you're often thinking two turns in advance.
Hope this sheds some light on what the competitive scene for card games looks like!
Thing is with heartstone the randomness is baked into the core of the game while in pokemon most of it feels tacked on, like crits for example. Idk for the other examples but personally i think crits shouldnt be available for your average moves and should be reserved only for the "high crit chance moves" since accuracy should already be enough randomness for most moves in and of themselves
tl;dr only allow crits for "high crit chance" moves and remove it from other moves
one thing i've always liked about civilization is the same turn-based but everyone moves at the same time kind of design.
as someone who never plays competitive, but still enjoys your videos...
i was shocked to learn that the in-game 2v2 isn't even the same format as VGC since it has closed team-lists
I think RNG is actually a pretty smart way of both preventing things from being too consistant and creating exciting moments. Something like random critical hits for example. Without them, setup strategies would become way too consistant and dominant, it's important that some sort of counterplay accessible to every Pokemon in the game exists for them. Plus, learning how to manage RNG is an important skill in no matter what type of Pokemon you're playing. And then there's always the potential excitement of a move getting a lucky burn that causes the oncoming attack to bounce right off of you, leading to you ultimately winning. It's a very nice balance of power between players, where no player is ever truly down and out (unless they get outsped and OHKO'd). Of course, the RNG isn't perfect by any means, I think accuracy can make things way too punishing, some of the things triggered by RNG are really stupid like freeze. At the end of the day though, I think Pokemon would be a far worse game without any sort of hax
Nope, but we like it anyway
Never thought I would hear a runeterra mention here, I’m also a competitive Pokémon and runeterra player.
Jimothy Cool talking about card games made my day. Thank you, Jimothy Cool.
Amazing video
What we really need are creators to fund and sponsor tourneys as you are. I wpuld love one day for in person national showdown tourneys
Really good vid, agree with everything.
Want to add that if a format feels overly volatile, the solution is simply to switch from Bo1 to Bo3, or Bo3 to Bo5.
The Law of Large Numbers means that if there are enough RNG rolls/guesses on each side, it ends up evening out, and it becomes less determinant of the outcome of a set, and player skill & agency become basically the only relevant factor like 99% of the time.
As you said, other games have RNG elements while being extremely popular and competitive (see Poker).
I have yet to see a single Orre Colosseum Bo5 set be determined by luck (happens all the time with Bo3)
Your best video yet Mr. Jim. Glad you’re getting into a game like Street Fighter, I love fighting games!
im a fighting game player first and mons player second and i gotta say everything in this vid is so spot on its crazy.
I've just started getting into gen 3 OU thanks to the ADV Revival tournament, and if anyone out there is looking for a pretty fun time, please give it a shot. It really is the most fun singles metagame out there
Whoa LoR mentioned??? You are wild! I love Legends of Runeterra, and it was the *last* game I thought you would mentioned here
I think being competetive is like priority number 104 hence why it needed a patch to have variable rng seeds, where number 6 is casual RPG experience the first 5 would be:
1. Will the game make money
2. Did the game cost a lot to make
3, Was the game made on time
4. Made with cross marketability with other products
5. Are all the shiny monsters viewable in the game
Then and only then does the game give a crap about its rpg experience.
That ADV jackpot is practically skyrocketing. 😮
I once had a random battle game where I paralysed a Corviknight and then for the next 56 turns he did not get fully paralysed once. Pokémon moment
Your passion for your topic is contagious, thank you for sharing it with us.
I found it pretty interesting how you drew a connection between fighting games and pokemon, cause there's something else that I really like in the both of them. The sheer amount of player expression.
Fighting games have a stupid amount of options before you even boot one up. There are so many kinds of fighting games, each with their own unique mechanics that promote different kinds of play. Street fighter has a slower and more methodical game. Marvel vs Capcom is a stupid unbalanced but also crazy fun mess. Tekken looks cool (I don't know Tekken). Skullgirls has crazy ToDs and is very offensive, Guilty Gear is insanely fast and volatile, UNI has huge buttons to click and is stylish as hell, Melty Blood is speedy and has a ton of aerial movement, the list goes on and on. Frankly, you can just choose whatever looks the coolest and be done with it, but each game promotes different kinds of play and I think that's sick as hell. And at the end of the day, all of them are fighting games. The fundamentals of one will port over to the fundamentals of the other, so once you get used to the genre in general you can explore all these games and get a feel for what plays the best for you.
Once you choose a game and jump into a match, you can actually choose how you want to play. You have balanced characters (shoto) for white bread players, rushdown characters for aggressive players, grapplers for players who like hard reads and big numbers, zoners for players who just want to shut down the opponent from afar, setplay, mixup, stance, puppet, joke; there are just so many characters to choose, each with their own unique strengths and weaknesses that specialize in their own sort of playstyle. Some will be more viable than others, but at the core of it all the fun is to play what you want and how you want.
Your choices don't just stop at character select, they're prevelant at every step of play. Core A Gaming had a great video on player archetypes and how each player can practice and specialize in different areas. You have body players, the classic archetype who spends hundreds of hours in training mode and has a godlike combo game. Alternatively, you have mind players, who instead spends that time in training mode practicing all kinds of setups, pressure strings, option-selects, basically just ways to open up the opponent and get a hit in. Finally, you have heart players, who just wave off training mode, hit the game, and make the most out of fighting games doing the nastiest reads you've seen in your life. In general, everyone can specialize in these archetypes however they see fit. You can be the dirtiest bastard in neutral and pressure with an average combo game. You can practice every single scenario in training mode and become an unyielding wall. You can read your opponent and eat half of their healthbar with an average understanding of frame data and no tricks. You can become balanced and be equally skilled in all these areas. All these choices, all these ways to play how YOU want to play, to dominate your opponent cause you're SICK like that, is just peak fighting games. It's a very overwhelming genre and I understand why a lot of people get turned off, but the amount of soul in each match is why I love the genre so much.
Pokemon doesn't really have the same level of prestige as fighting games and other competitive esports. It's filled with messy RNG and its parent company is pretty terrible at organizing events and promoting the competitive scene. I don't even really play mons anymore, just cause I don't have the time. Even still, I'm still a fan of the game. There are so many formats you can play, so many teamstyles you can build, so many mons you can use in order to fulfil a specific function or niche. There's OU, Gen UU, LC, VGC, previous gens, all of which have their own styles of play. You can build balance, hyper offense, bulky offense, and stall. You can build around a specific field condition, like weathers, terrains, tailwind, and trickroom. You can even build around a specific mon as a win condition, meta or not. My favorite part of pokemon is definitely the teambuilder, just because fiddling with all these pokemon and trying to make the team that suits me best in the meta is just so fun and fulfilling. Even once you start a game, different people adapt in different ways. One person might play patiently to wear down a bulky opponent, while another will make crazy doubles in order to get their sweeper in a winning position. There are very clearly winning and losing decisions, which makes the game a lot more limited once you get in an actual game, but it's still fun to watch blunder and pokeaim choke and still win.
I'll be honest and say I don't really play much else, so I can't say whether or not other competitive games really share the same level of player expression and choice. All I know is that fighting games are cool cause I can BEAT THE SHIT out of my opponent because I'm SICK AS HELL, and pokemon is pretty cool for the same reasons.