BPD Pain Emptiness Dysphoria Anguish Toxicity | LOIS CHOI-KAIN
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2021
- Lois Choi-Kain discusses the possible driving forces behind some of the harder-to-describe symptoms of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) -- i.e. feelings of emptiness, pain, dysphoria, anguish, toxicity -- and how life changes may affect these symptoms for the better.
Dr. Choi-Kain is a powerhouse in the BPD treatment world. Her short bio:
"Dr. Choi-Kain is a leader in the Good or General Psychiatric Management (GPM) approach developed by her mentor John Gunderson, M.D. with his long-time collaborator Paul Links, M.D. GPM aims to be a generic form of BPD centered care that is more accessible and just plain good treatment.
Lois W. Choi-Kain, MEd, MD, is the director of the Gunderson Personality Disorders Institute. The institute provides training and supervision for numerous proven treatments, including mentalization-based treatment (MBT), dialectical behavioral therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder (DBT-PTSD), transference focused psychotherapy (TFP), and general psychiatric management (GPM). She works nationally and internationally to expand teaching efforts on borderline personality disorder and its evidence-based treatments and engages in research to study resources for training clinicians who need direction and patients who need access to informed care. With her mentor, John Gunderson, Dr. Choi-Kain developed a training program for GPM and has been expanding its applications.
In 2009, Dr. Choi-Kain developed the Gunderson Residence, a specialized residential program for adult women with severe personality disorders. In 2013, she founded the BPD Training Institute, a major center for proliferating awareness of and evidence-based care for severe personality disorders. Dr. Choi-Kain has also developed training clinics in McLean’s Adult Outpatient Services for treatment approaches such as MBT and DBT-PTSD."
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It's a homesick feeling for a place that you've never been or maybe doesn't exist
Yep
Yes and there is a word for this: Hiraeth
I've never thought of it that way, but that perfectly describes the feeling . Thank you so much for you comment.
I often think to myself "I miss..." And then I stop because I don't actually know what I miss. I don't miss anything in particular. I just have this sense of longing.
This is exactly how I’ve been feeling for so many months. I don’t know what to do about it
Since childhood
The worst part about bpd for me is the fact that I know what is going on, I am fully aware as I destroy and sabotage my life and relationships around me because this illness doesnt affect my cognitive ability, kind of like being on a boat that is sinking and just having to watch
And the emptiness is real, I know because no matter how close I get to people it just feels surface level
this is so true :(
Accurate
Right there with ya. Sometimes I can feel connected to the love I have for people and when I can it’s the most intense feeling of love but then there’s the majority of the time where even though I love my friends and family and would give my life to protect them, all I can feel is emptiness. When I say I love you it feels fake because even though I really do love you, I feel nothing…I try to be as authentic as I can, only lying when people ask how I’m doing out of fear of annoying or depressing others but the lack of ability to connect to how I feel makes me feel so disingenuous.
Same for me, but with my ADHD (going down the BPD rabbit hole again, btw, despite not relating to it by much and mostly being depressed due to my ADHD and all the stuff I mess up in my life x-x)
Same
Being so consumed by the emptiness and the void, I've done anything I could to fill it. But it's always temporary. Relationships. Money. Work. Motherhood. Love. Success. Drugs. Sobriety. All of it. It's like trying to fit a square into a circle. It's like the high is so high but the void is still there. Always. And its hard to get out of. It's hard to fill a void that I don't even know how to locate let alone know what it'll take to fill it. Like. At what cost? How far will I have to go? Acceptance and therapy and years into my diagnosis and though ik I've made progress, I still feel stuck in purgatory and the collateral damage I'm continually accumulating is only validating that nothing is working.
@Juju Coyote I appreciate your kind words. Thankyou. I do my best.
I had this same problem -- to the max -- when I was younger. It was simply a deep void, scary. Probably the result of a tough childhood; always afraid, for good reason. Over the years, with counseling and consistent sobriety work, it has slowly disappeared with a warm, full and comfortable core in its place. Keep working on it; life's worth it. My belief is that it's a neurological problem, a developmental interruption. To rewire ourselves requires daily effort, for years and decades; a lifetime pursuit of personal development. The outcome for me has been more than worth it; simply golden. We can end up being happier and more fulfilled than the typical person. The hardship leads to the gift ... in time.
This chain is amazing. So moved and interested in all you have to say. @Chelsea Dean - John Harrigan makes a point I might stand with. Something about it being both neurological and developmental. I did not - to my memory - have the emptiness problem. But I did have a lack of hunger for romantic love or companionship, it was just missing, only a facsimile existed of what I thought I was supposed to feel. I think that has begun to crack. The pain was there from a young age and surfaced with vengeance in my mid thirties, to an intolerable degree. Once I did get the right diangosis and landed with the right treaters, something started to touch it. I don't know when it went away. I only know that one day I noticed it was no longer there. I didn't carry it with me, into every interaction anymore. I felt so very damaged by it, like it was a sore visible to all and I felt bad for their having to see it, having to bear a piece of my pain simply by us crossing paths. Anyway, this stuff is hard and hard to touch, but I think us all talking about it is a good thing. Sending you well wishes. It is big, but it is touchable and crackable.
I hope it becomes more hopeful for you and me tpp
Same here. I’ve tried to feel the void with drugs, alcohol, s*x, buying things to improve myself.. only to find I still felt the emptiness.. I feel as though I’m non fixable.
I don't remember a time where I didn't feel that emptiness. Probably younger than 6 or 7. Just a constant feeling of being different to everybody else and an inability to connect. I read a passage that said loneliness grows on you like a mould and it's so true because it covers you bit by bit everyday until there's nothing else but an all consuming feeling of loneliness and emptiness. The first time I had a breakdown and ended up in the hospital the feeling of disconnect is the only thing I remember in the dissociation. I consider myself in recovery but the loneliness never went away, I have just learned to conceal it from those I love.
@@v.sancheez it's funny because I was about that age too the first time I started to dissociate. I've reali now that the daydreams I had and the world I created in my head wasn't just a daydream I didn't realise until my twenties that everyone didn't make up people in their heads who just lived inside their head from a young age. I think that started in primary school and I found out hard to be around people and connect because I was always in my own head. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. I suffered with self harm too and a deep hatred for myself. I hope you find healing
@@stinastina2293 Wow, thanks for sharing that. I have a world in my head with people that kind of play this role of comfort people. But, I'm never fully me in these fantasies. I'm a version of me I wish I had pursued but the lacked the confidence to pursue when I was younger. Instead, I chose to be in very toxic relationships and added to that toxic with my own stuff. But, I kind of feel like I'm crazy that I have these fantasies that I keep leaning so hard on. I know they aren't real and I know it's not really appropriate, but I think I would feel lost without it. I'm in my 40s now and instead of feeling like I could die, I just retreat to these fantasies to feel better.
Yes 100 percent! I remember feeling so empty growing up as a kid that at 5 years old I'd sing "Nobody loves me" to myself....
Will you accept a hug from someone who knows what you are talking about.
I think in some cases the emptiness comes from childhood rejection by a parent, such as the aching emptiness the infant experiences when ignored or rejected by his or her mother.
Yes!
The feeling when your parents are all the time pissed off, frustrated and angry with you because they view you as "difficult", " evil" child when you're emotionally so overwhelmed all the time
Wow, all this perfectly described.
Emptiness is a place where a consolidated person should've been, a person one should become and a person becomes via the mother's gaze, in the reflection of mother's unconditional love. But when the mother is immature and/or narcissistic and offers only conditional love based on performance (one example, there are many), there's no becoming, thus the emptiness.
I never realised I had this emptiness, because I was always SO anxious, distracted by both good and bad things, and I almost always had a Favourite Person who made me feel...alive. I felt "happy" because I had this constant obsession and desire, but at the same time I would be SO unstable as my feelings and inner stability kind of existed through them. I didn't have a stable foundation within myself. When I couldn't be with my FP, I'd be miserable and angry.
When I didn't have an FP in my life at times, I noticed I felt very bored and unmotivated.
After many years of this, I realise at age 42 that I seem to have 2 options of being. One is being with an FP and not being empty, but being like a puppet whose emotions and mental stability are controlled by the FP who doesn't even know they're holding the puppet strings, and nor do they want to!
The other is having no FP and having all those unstable, roller coaster-like emotions go literally dormant, BUT...the constant, persistent and relentless EMPTINESS. Boredom, dullness, anhedonia, no motivation, no desire, no interest, depression...yeah.
You're awareness of this is amazing (to me). Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feeling and specificity of your experience. Truly, so helpful and enlightening. Not sure where you've currently landed in your FP vs not living, but glad to have you here. - R
@@BorderlinerNotes Oh! Thank you so much! I am very self aware and actually always have been, but back when I first began feeling and manifesting my BPD symptoms I was 17, it was 1996 and I'd never even heard of BPD! AND between age 18 and 21, I was studying psychology at college! I still had no idea! lol.
I just thought I had "outbursts" or "tantrums". I didn't realise quite why, and as I previously mentioned, I didn't know I felt empty or what an FP was and all that stuff. I knew I was "unstable", self harmed, was very possessive, insecure and jealous, and that I had anxiety, mild OCD, insomnia, and that was it (I wasn't depressed yet).
I've had a total of 5 FPs in my life, and noticed I would only explode at THEM and only show THEM my true feelings instead of the facade I put on for everyone else.
My first FP was my best friend at school (same age), and then we became a couple from age 18-22 (we're both women and are still friends to this day, though nowhere near as close). I assumed I was gay but wasn't overly interested in the sexual side of things.
After we broke up (not due to the BPD, just due to growing up and apart in our early 20s), I had no FP for 5 months and felt quite alone and bored during that time. I became completely obsessed and infatuated with various celebrities (which I'd also been doing since I was 12 years old), which actually helped a lot as they made me feel excited and motivated, and they were "safe" because they were obviously at a distance, but at the same time they weren't as rewarding because they weren't in my real life of course.
So after that empty 5 months, I met my next FP who also became my partner (and still is, 20 years later). Another woman, so I fully identified as gay now, though again, the sexual side...meh. I sort of wished it just didn't exist so there'd be no expectations. She's 16 years older than me.
It's awkward nowadays, as even though we're still together, she hasn't been my FP for at least 10-11 years, so I was feeling bored long before I even realised or could bear to admit it to myself. At this point I still had never heard of an FP and didn't know I had BPD.
I always had celebrity infatuations during all this time, and I even noticed that when one would start to fade, I'd feel bored and dull and I actually remember saying to myself that it was better if I could "trapeze" from one person to another and not have to endure any empty, boring gaps between obsessions.
My next FP was a work colleague who became a friend, and eventually a very close friend, in early 2010, when I was 31. I was a bit confused as I still had no idea what an FP was, and just thought I must have a crush on her...except I wasn't attracted to her sexually and didn't want to be WITH her in a relationship either. I just wanted to be her closest friend. She was also straight and married. This FP phase only lasted about 6 months before we kind of lost touch naturally and faded apart.
This FP actually overlapped with my next FP who would turn out to be very...interesting in terms of the impact he had in my life. He was a man, much older (27 years older), living in another country, and married. Can you get any more unavailable!?! lol.
We met online as casual friends on a singer / songwriter forum at the end of 2010. I started developing feelings for him in early 2011. I thought those feelings were safe, similar to my work colleague friendship crush and celebrity infatuations, because apart from all the other things, I was gay, wasn't I? Except the difference was that he had feelings for me too. We became a "couple" as much as anyone can be whilst both in other relationships and across the other side of the planet. I felt like I was still basically gay and he was the only exception to that rule, and that may have also been because the long distance thing meant the sexual element was easier for me as even though I WAS very attracted to him, I didn't have to really DO anything. No pressure No self-consciousness. After a few years I decided I was probably bisexual but ONLY interested in certain types of older men, and not at ALL interested anymore in most women.
He was my FP from early 2011 until...hmm...I'm not sure quite when my feelings changed. He's not my FP anymore now, even though we're still...something. It's complicated. After 10 years together, meeting several times in person, MANY chaotic upheavals and him abandoning me countless times due to issues with his wife and literally just disappearing, him almost dying twice, me developing PTSD due to all the trauma, we have now settled into a sort of long term companionship from afar. Definitely more than friends, but finally at peace with the realities and major limitations of "us". He will be 70 next year and I will turn 43 shortly before. I am relieved he's not my FP anymore. As much as I will always love him dearly, it just got too emotionally traumatic for me due to those sudden abandonment events. His life, that I had no control over, was controlling MY emotions and wellbeing. He also developed physical health problems from the chronic stress of trying to maintain 2 lives. We are both better off how we are now, though he is resigned and wistful, and I am empty and a different person to who I was so long ago. I felt like I was straight for a while also.
So finally, we come to my current FP, who is another woman, and one of my best friends. I never thought I'd be attracted to a woman again, but here we go. lol. We met in late 2018 in weird circumstances and didn't like each other. She is yet again older (22 years older). I was always somewhat intrigued by her, despite our less than ideal first meeting.
We became friends very easily a year later in 2019, when we finally got proper time to talk and discovered we had a lot in common. We live in the same apartment complex (we met at an owner's corp meeting), and are also neighbours in a different state where we're both originally from. Our houses there are literally a 10 minute walk apart and we went to the same school.
So...yeah. I feel like I'm in love with her even though I don't actually want to be in a relationship with her. I just want to be her "bestest" friend EVER. I AM sexually attracted to her, but only the top half. lol. She is single, but straight.
So ANYWAY...there's my FP history! I only discovered what an FP was last year I think, and realised that she was it, for however long it lasts.
I always just assumed I was in love with someone when I had these feelings, and now, with yet more insight into myself, I actually think that is true. I have been in love with all of them, and some for a long time in real relationships. So for me, it seems that I need whomever I am in a relationshio with to be my FP in order to feel "in love". Which is quite unfortunate, as I can't keep the FP feelings going forever, but without them, I feel empty, bored and depressed. So I either remain empty, or I have "FP affairs". Neither is good.
Omg.
This is me. Right now.
I've always tried explaining to close friends or family my situation but no one understands me. Your comment made me feel like I'm not alone... is there anyway we could talk privately? It would mean so much. I can tell you're very experienced and probably could give me some insight. Talking to several therapist and psychiatrist haven't helped much.
@@ladybaabaa3294 i was also a pysch major and ending up having to diagnose myself
I always feel so overwhelmed . I’ve been in my head since I was a child never allowed myself to trust my friends or family .
Do you also project onto other people? I am dating a guy who I believe has BPD and he seems to feel a lot of shame and pain and projects a lot of it onto me. One minute he’s the real “him” who is kind and the next he felt rejected because I was 5 minutes late und starts to become very passive agressive.
constantly overwhelmed over everything and nothing
Same here
Such true words. I know personally the sense of overwhelming emptiness definitely stems from my poor sense of self. However, when you mentioned the “pain” you’ve felt since childhood I related instantly. For me it felt like a part of me was missing and came with such intense pain. When I get that feeling now, it feels exactly as it did when I was a child yet I still can’t put my finger on what it is I’m “lacking”. Thank you for all you share 💚
Thank you thank you for being here and sharing. -p
Maybe lack of love and care from parents manifested in this emptiness... I didnt have AN anchor in my childhood, maybe thats why now i feel this empty feeling, anguish....
I think the fundamental issue is trying to find the cause of the emptiness or add importance to it. This leads to blame and avoidance. Instead focus on what makes you want to accomplish. Accept that emptiness will be with you. Don't fight it or try to explain it. Don't blame it on anything or anyone. Accept that it's an emotion that you feel.
@@HD20204 I agree to a certain extent but nevertheless think that exploration of why that pain is and the emptyness is essential so that you can fully accept it. Knowing what caused it is a step forward in trying to come to terms with ones past and move on.
To just accept like that and not investigating will always leave that feeling of "ok, it's like that but why?"
Cos at the bottom line it's not "normal" to have chronic emptiness.
Some therapists out there describe it as the "mother wound".
Having grown up in a disfunctional, disorganised family system where you weren't "taught" how to act to all kinds of emotions as a kid.
That's just my 2c :)
these comments really are helping me feel less alone. i've really been considering admitting myself but im scared and am trying to find things to make me feel more comfortable bc ik that i need it
Emptiness is my primary feeling.
Thank you for being here and sharing this note. Wishing you well. -p
I call it the void and being stuck in purgatory
I feel empty like if I don’t exist
The emptiness for me is constantly feeling alone I can be with someone still feel alone I think so much my head is hurting I’m tryna call out for help but no one can hear me
I'm so sorry. I'm just so sorry. If I could take on your pain I would.
Wow the comment on BPD people will, want and enjoy causing pain just blew me away. How can anyone think that? I assume this person does not have the disorder as personally although we might have or still cause pain through our inability to slow down our reactions or outbursts (for me they were like out of body experiences)- they are followed with extreme feelings of confusion, regret, pain, self hate, mourning and huge amounts of guilt. In working my way they this journey I had to come to a place where I accepted I hurt people, apologize if I felt safe enough to explain my diagnosis (does not normally work I would not recommend), and also offer myself some praise got even making it this far- physically, emotionally etc as a functioning adult who works supports herself etc- but I also had and still do at times, mourn the loss of everything I missed out on- the cost of this disorder- dbt was an amazing help and honestly as lonely as it can be sometimes- being very careful about the situations I put myself in. This is a very difficult disorder so be proud of yourself when you do things that are positive. God bless!
i don't understand when we get compared to narcissistic personality disorder either because we feel guilty all the time i feel other people's pain for them i'm also hyper vigilant and ready to know how their mood will affect mine etc.
What are you referring to in your first statement? Nobody in the video made such a remark…
@@dbuck1964 i think they removed it
@@leahflower9924thank you so much for saying this. I just recently learned about “Borderline empathy” it’s something I have always felt but could never prove / explain.
I really do take on others’ emotions, feel so much guilt, and say sorry a lot. So much so that generally being sociable or in public for awhile is extremely exhausting. 😅
My last ex, 4 yrs ago, was BPD and NPD. They can certainly coincide and THAT… is next level, I would not wish it on my own worst enemy. It was interesting - he did have the BPD guilt/shame complex, like feeling sorry for yelling at me if it made me cry (sometimes).
But it was always caught up in the NPD framework. Like, after making me think he was sorry, to get me to calm down, he’d call me stupid for believing any of it and laugh at the past 30 mins - 2 hrs like it was nothing.
They were mindgames within mindgames. I know BPD ppl go back and forth between feeling way too much then nothing. But our feelings shut off when we genuinely feel too hard. It’s not bc we don’t have any genuine / real feelings at all!
I’m sure you get it. ❤
Thank you.
To add, I suffered for so long with a huge empty NESS in my being that was also so painful that at times I would have to get on the floor b/c I was being so flattened by pain and sense of no center. Cut to, couple months ago resolved a multidecade long estrangement with a sibling and ever since then I feel full. The hole is full. There's a sense of dirt. I feel like, except for concern for my elderly cat, I could die and I'm happy.
To anyone reading this, another You Tube channel for Borderline study is Dr. Danial Fox.
For me the emptiness is like a blackhole in my heart. I have fed it everything that was good in my life in hopes of blocking it off: my soul, my relationships, my career, my physical health, my childhood, my present and somehow even my future. And it's still hungry and growing and slowly sucking every last bit of me into nothingness. Sometimes the nothingness of death feels better than the one burning inside of me. As I grow I feel nothing and I mourn for the feelings I know I should be feeling. I've never been able to truly feel any joy, I've only known and imagined what I should be feeling.
only been distracting myself
I wish I didnt understand this. I wish I could tell you it will get better. I’ve been crying for 4 days, haven’t been able to get out of bed. Can’t even find a way to distract myself anymore. I dont want to die but I dont want to live like this. But I can tell you you aren’t alone. I know it doesn’t help to much, but if I can help just a little, Bc I wouldnt wish this on my enemy.
@@Nic-no8nf Thank you for trying to help. I respect you for being able to hold on to your kindness despite of the state you are in. I really really hope that it gets better for you.
@@anios6511 that really means a lot, Thankyou very much
:( does this thing get any better?
I wish my ex had admitted she suffered from this condition instead of just lashing out all the time, never apologising and always blaming me. If she'd been more aware or even honest I'd have supported her all the way.
The emptiness that people fear is better known as the void.. the great unknown. Go within and you will never be without. Due to the abuse aka lack of love, they endured they never got a chance to connect with the piece of trust in humanity known as unconditional love with means connection/togetherness aka the opposite of isolated and alone.
As such they are bound by ego never knowing the power of what's beyond it. absolutely devastating :(
Basically always is a state of resistance unable to surrender. I hope for these souls to find the courage to chase the connection that theyvwere robbed of in this life. Never a more appropriate time to say, namaste.
Excellent message 👍
I have that pain ThAts been sitting in my heart since I was a child. I’ve never been able to shake it off or fill it in either.
Emptiness, I often feel as ‘numb’… just nothing. Thank you so much for your channel 🙏🏼
Hugs x understand
I would also describe that feeling as "numb"
I love that black and white background. Very Expressive.
Thank u! -p
I have a partner of 6 years who has Bpd and it is very difficult. Learning about the disorder has helped tremendously in giving me understanding of behaviors I found absolutely absurd and unreasonable. I am able to see outbursts differently and have more patience in giving space or to explain things better after the heat has passed. If I didn’t have children with him I don’t know if I would stay, it’s very difficult but we work day by day. I always pray for a miracle
Thanks so much for this personal comment. This is basically one of the things we're out to achieve - a better understanding for everyone (including those without a diagnosis) which leads to compassion and less automatic, reactive conflict. I can relate to your story; working day by day is what we're all trying to do as best we can! -p
I ended my relationship with my bpd partner and now I have feelings of emptiness that I never had before and I'm mad about it.
@@artisttjan I am sorry! It’s such a hard decision. I don’t know how long it’s been that you’ve been broken up or any circumstances, but I do know when you’ve come out of a relationship with I’m going to say large ups and downs which I feel in my relationship and I think a lot of people would say with a partner with bpd, it’s a little like trauma bonding.. take some more time to let things settle depending why you left or if you feel it was a mistake maybe slowly try to work things out and maybe include therapy with a bpd expert.
We broke up one time after my first child was born and I was in the same place, I was absolutely distraught and didn’t know how to function. Looking back I wish I had been stronger but because of the kid I really was so confused as to what was the right decision for everyone.
I hope it works out and just know you aren’t alone! ❤️❤️
Yep. I am one of them. It's hard when you can't get help and feel isolated in this distortion called life.
For me the only way is to learn to live with the pain and emptiness. It’s a part of me. I’m in the process of accepting it. And that hurts, but it also gives some relieve.
it's like sometimes, you don't even realize you're going off into the deep end with your thoughts. like you don't realize your mental state is spiraling and you feel as if your mind and thoughts feel negative but are still normal. but then you have a moment of clarity after an emotional outburst and actually realize your mind wasn't in a normal state until after you've calmed down and then you have to deal with the aftermath of how those emotions have affected those around you, which leads to guilt and depression and self-loathing that continues that cycle.
I think I feel both emptiness and great pain... I felt more empty when I was younger... now I just feel the pain and anger and frustration. I was diagnosed in 2015.
I compare the emptiness to a sense of falling and having nothing to grab onto for security. It's like i have no stable sense of sense due to lack of empathetic regard growing up. Our care givers are the ones that should istill that security and core belief that we are important and loved. Without we are lost and hollow. Hence addiction and the need to constantly fill ourselves with what we think makes us feel good. It's frickin exhausting.
I have struggled with this emptiness for as long asI can remember, It sometimes feels like standing on the edge of a huge cavern. It lessens in intensity and comes and goes but Always returns
I think Linehan says in one of our old vids that some of her clients feel like they're looking down into a fog. Couldn't help but notice the similarity to your description. Thank you for adding your voice here. -p
This is an extremely underrated video for those with BPD. Thank you both!
Dr. Choi should write a book. I would love to read it.
i really appreciate this channel, especially the conversations with dr. choi-kain. thank you so much
I've watched most all the doctors you've had on here, and I have to say, this woman might be the most impressive
A lot of hard truths and education can help. Feelings are neither good, bad right or wrong, they just are. BPD is from childhood abuse. We have skewed up perspectives that need flipping. I have been working very hard to educate myself and I am feeling better and my self worth is getting better. It’s a long long road but it’s definitely worth the journey. Build self worth. Find out what your morals and values are and learn to understand yourself. Oh and emotional literacy and journaling and routines are really helpful. You gotta show up for yourself!!!
Wonderful. Thank you for this. I agree that building self worth is the key even though it can be hard to see how to go about it. It sounds like you are walking a good road! -p
Love that last sentence - gotta show up ...... for yourself!!!
Maybe I should write it on a piece of paper and stick it next to my bed.
Self worth.
It feels like I could have anything in the world and still feel empty and miserable. I don't understand...I have so much to be grateful for and things really aren't that bad...but everyday is a struggle to care about anything or not feel this huge void.
Thank you. Excellent perspective on an important subject, I think.
extremely relevant to me this week. Thank you!
So happy to hear this is meaningful to you this week! Thanks for being here. -p
My too
Excellent. More like this, please!
Thank you. We are working on it! -p
Another excellent pro. Congratulations Rebbie.
Thank you. We are so lucky to have access to these incredible researchers and clinicians. I am so glad you are finding this info helpful!
This channel is great, I was diagnosed last year and there's not many resources available where I live
The emptiness literally felt like a whole in my stomach.
I call it The Nothing. Ever since I watched The Never-ending Story it impacted me. The Consultant that diagnosed me said he would use it in future because it so described the feeling of emptiness.
Oh can we see there more of this conversation please?? Wonderful
Thanks for asking -- we're working on it!
My guess is that if an infant is treated as nothing, nota person but an absence of a tool for the caregivers - it might ended an profound absence inside. I have also seen a lot of self-loathing in folks suffering from addictions. But haven't seen any studies - just speculating.
As a child you're so 'out there' and ready to receive, but when you continuously don't receive, you come to realise that it is futile, so anything truly positive that you experience you never truly experience it, because your brain decided long ago, there's nothing out there.
Even when I get together with my grown children and my Grandbabies, I never feel like I'm 100% there with them. I often enjoy the memory of the get-together afterwards more than the event itself! I am also very much aware, that this enjoyable time will pass and I start grieving about that. When one of my kids comes home to stay for a week or so, I start missing them, days before they've even left! Maybe 'emptiness' is a way of protecting myself - like if I were truly in the moment enjoying our time together, the pain when they leave would be even greater. So maybe emptiness is a way of trying to limit that pain, avoidance.
Your first paragraph is painful.
It's reminding me of emotional neglect. I've only come to realise this over the last year or so.
Always made to believe that I had a good and beautiful childhood.
Yes, there was no physical abuse .... but the emotional neglect and like you described "there's nothing out there" were very deep and left deep marks.
I got one son studiyig overseas and have the same sort of feeling....
When he's here (and both my sons are too much around me) I feel like I need my time (Dr Kim Sage has got a really eye-opener on this - why you feel like you can't play with your kids).
But then when his departure comes close it's like I switch buttons. Start missing him before leaving and then going to auto shut down. Just shut down all emotions cos I feel like I don't want to feel my own self.
It's crazy.
They're not married yet but already I'm thinking about when there will be grandkids and how I will be.
I decided that I will be the "weekend granny", not too close yet still some contact. I'm scared of hurting them - they're not even here yet and don't even know if I ever will have grandkids!!! - like I did hurt my own kids.
I thought moving continents will change my life but I didn't realise that my demons of the past came with me in the luggage.
Growing up in the 80ies sucked.
Mental health was stigmatized and u just had to swallow the pills they gave and get a move on (speaking about mum here and me being the kid wandering clueless in life and thinking that mum's wellbeing was connected to me and how "good" I behaved)
Thank you for reading, if you did ... and I wish you and your family well :)
Best exsplanation iv heard yet
Does anyone here with BPD have a really hard time taking a complement?
My biggest problem is that things used to switch frequently on and off on and off wether feelings happiness joy sadness or whatever but during the last couple of years things went completely off as if I’d never be able to feel anything again. Like a candle which is too bright at times and dimes at others, but then completely lit off. Just feeling deadish. Not sure if that happens with everyone or not but don’t know. Life has become so meaningless..
I’m feeling that way too. I’ve discovered a whole new depth to my depression and emptiness. Like finding a dark room under your basement that you never knew was there. I’m in that room and not sure if I’ll ever get out. I’m sorry you’re enduring this pain and I wish you better days ahead!
You both are amazing for being here and describing your experience. I am no expert and have no quick answers (not that you are asking), but I do want to acknowledge your being here and say thank you for talking about your experience and reaching out.
I know I have BPD but I don't even know if what I experience is the emptiness since I feel so used to it. I almost can't remember being any other way, except when I was a kid. Basically for me it feels like there is always something "wrong," always something missing and I'm constantly anxiously looking for it, that's what it feels like all the time in my head. And it comes with a horrible feeling of depression and meaninglessness. Does that sound like BPD emptiness?
Recently got medication for my illness. I'm feeling a lot more safety lately.
Glad to hear it, and thanks for adding your voice here. -p
Medicine for bpd? Do you mind saying what that is? My partner was told there isn’t medication to help his.. 😒
@@aep7113 Hi, sorry, I take an SSRI. It's not necessarily specifically for BPD, but I believe it will help with some symptoms
@@moonshoes8931 do you feel same way now?
@@srbijasrbima7196 to answer your question, not as much relief these days. I do think i am better than before, but only marginally. to see real improvement I'll probably need DBT or something. basically SSRI made it easier to get out of bed, and made me feel less clingy I think. So I'd recommend it for the relief, but don't expect it to fix every issue, it will only help with depressive things not like anger or impulsivity
The biggest problem with me is inability to make decisions and forgetting those that I made. I have also extreme fear of rejection.... Don't know what to do.
Well explained.
Imma leave this here but if anyone sees this pls help me out I constantly feel misunderstood and I’m always angry and empty I always get so mad and break stuff and I always feel super bad afterwards and then that would lead me to feel like I don’t deserve to be loved I have this strong feeling in my soul that I’m missing a piece of me I feel lost I hate feeling alone even the thought of being alone makes me wanna cry I always mess up good things good times I ruin so I don’t go out or do anything anymore I can’t keep a job for more than 2 weeks minimum 1 week I’m afraid I may have BPD but I’m more afraid of trying to talk to someone about it because I don’t wanna feel crazy. As everyone already sees me. My emotions are too strong and I’m afraid I’ll hurt myself again.
Very interesting as always!
I've heard some weeks ago that one person defined her sense of emptiness as "feeling an hole filled with nothing": I find this metaphor truly expressive, I don't know if you agree too. But I also want to ask you if you think that this kind of awareness often and spontaneously emerges from the majority of people with BPD, or probably there are some cases in which these feelings remain (at least initially) "undetected" to the borderline person, in the sense that he/she acts without really acknowledging this internal state of feelings. Thank you!
A totally good question and worth querying those who really have the diagnosis. According to Dr. Choi-Kain, it is a common way people describe their experience. When I was in treatment, the pain thing was noted by most---> all of us. Your questions really bears an answer from a research perspective. That said, from an on-ground experiential perspective, certainly the pain piece was notable in present in many of us and we were well aware of the feeling - it was impossible to ignore. -R
@@BorderlinerNotes Thanks Rebbie, I think it would be interseting to study how people with the diagnosis evolve in time respect to this kind of feeling. As you say, probably the awareness is very common in those cases, but who knows if this awareness comes only after the diagnosis, or maybe after a critical age too. I'm not an expert, so these are just hypotesis of mine; I know that some follow-ups have been done, probably this one was an aspect taken into account in some manner.
And I personally think that even some videos about these "evolutionary" processes could be interesting too, how the perception of the "borderline self" evolves with time and therapy, with some examples... I don't know, this is my personal suggestion!
@@leonardodedeo5540 I'm scrolling down all the comments and stumbled upon yours.
I would like to tell you my own experience.
I'm 49, female. My whole life long I felt that there is something "missing" and at times I had these "tantrums", which I would soothe by going out into nature all by myself. But I couldn't explain what actually was happening with me.
Mum used to call me a choleric and that this will catch up one day with me (which it did).
I did improve with my emotional outbursts a lot after becoming more attached to my faith.
But there was still something always inside me which just didn't feel normal.
I got three kids, two boys and the last one a girl.
They were raised in a home of chronic stress (Dr Choi-Kain mentioned in another video the connection of BPD and chronic stress) due to my undiagnosed and moreover untreated condition.
You ask wether awareness comes after a diagnosed or after a certain age? For me it came after the most painful experience a parent can go thru. The suicide of your child.
My daughter of 17 years developed after the death of her grandma heightened anxiety and she would daily call from school to inquire about us. I started to take her for treatment.
Where I live the health service esp for mental issues is very lacking and from my experience therapists haven't got enough knowledge on personality disorders.
She got into hospital outpatient care (no facility for inpatient under age of 18!). Every effort was in vain. She took her own life in February '22.
From then on my search started on how things went like this.
My own emptiness and the feeling of pain became very clear to me after reading and learning about it. Before that I just knew that I'm not like everyone else.
This pain is now even greater, knowing that my own wounds have hurt my kids and esp my daughter.
Faith does help to accept and move on but the feeling stays there.
I don't even know why I'm writing this cos maybe I'm completely off the topic of what you wanted to know....
@@JDforeveralone Thank you for sharing your personal experience, I think that it is a meaningful story which certainly answer to my curiosity. I am very sad for what happened to you; maybe some traumatic events, as you have said, have the capacity of sheding light on some feelings that have previously accompanied you through your life. I hope that you have been able to manage these negative feelings, alone or with the help of someone...
Moreover, I think that your answer is also relevant for what concerns the intervention on younger people, which is a very sensitive issue of mental health services.
I wonder how she came to understand it so well. While other therapists seem to have thrown their hands up.
I'd really love to find an other that was so empathetic and aware.
It feels lonely out here in the nether.
Reminds me of the saying stare into the void long enough the void stares back at you
Enjoy listening to your expertise ... this is a complex disorder
I dont relate with the emptiness, but i very much relate to the pain
❤❤great video
The black hole. I see it in my mind. And And good feelings or compliments come, the black hole sucks them up and obliterates them before any other part of self can absorb it
Same way here. I do something good and start feeling better but that black hole sucks it very fast and punching me back on a same place over and over. And i cant be stable beacuse of that hole that eats iner peace
I am pretty sure my daughter has BPD. This video absolutely convinces me.
Unfortunately, she is using and estranged from her young children, friends, and family be cause of this.
Best wishes for you
Thank you for your presence here and for sharing about your daughter. Wishing you and your family the best. -p
@@rhobot75 Thank you! And for you, as well. 💗
@@BorderlinerNotes Thank you! 👍
@@andtruthisnotforeveryone3021 DBT is just ‘ok’ It soothes the symptoms and doesn’t really get to the nuts and bolts of the disorder.
Good morning from Canada 👋🏽 Finally getting a chance to listen to in today. 🙏🏽
In my experience, the emptiness totally stems from within! Most of those on the outside don't recognize it or at least very few! Glad you've never felt it it kinda sucks xD
Is it weird that I think I am okay but I don't think that anyone else sees anything but my flaws. I am always feeling defensive to others and in my head bashing myself for whatever anyone else points out as a flaw. It is nutz
Can someone explain how and why "the positive emotions tend to be shut down very quickly" with BPD?
For me it's the fear of abandonment. Hey this guy's great what a good relationship we could have! But he's just going to disappear and take off just like everybody else so I'm getting the hell out now.
@@sikkitty thank you for your response. It is tragic, I feel that's what happened to my ex boyfriend too. It was great and loving and he started to express doubts and fears, like a breakup was inevitable and it would hurt even more to be attached. He has relationship OCD as well.
what did help you?
is it possible for someone with BPD to have some sort of stable relationship? Or will it always be rocky because the tense emotions that a person feels with BPD.?
Intense* it's hard to control.
It possible, but it takes time and effort
I think if someone with BPD is open and honest with their partner things could work. But denial they've got a problem, its impossible.
Dr Daniel Fox has got a video on extract this topic.
Feeling emptiness is the worst part of BPD, I feel like an empty shell. I don't know what i like or who i am.
You know what, the best thing I like about Dr. Choi, except seeing her interview with Jake, in which she showed such empathy and understanding, is her ability to admit...we simply do not know. That's really difficult for a clinician, But which do you want? A doctor who is arrogant, and THINKS they have all the answers, OR a doctor who says, Well, we know a little bit about that that but TBH, we don't know know a hell of a lot about that. The former is just ARROGANT, and the second, like Dr. Choi is following the evidence, and is not afraid to admit there are certain things we just don't know about BPD yet. Fair dues to you Dr. Choi. I agree with Dr. Choi, there are still a lot of questions about BPD, we still have to answer. Simple example. On aetiology, why are only 70% have childhood trauma? What's going on with the other 30%? No one has answered that yet. I have BPD, and I rejected Dr. Diana Diamond (her interview with Charlotte just made me shudder), I dont think she has a clue about BPD, I told her so, and yet I like her colleague Prof. Frank Yeomans. People with BPD know which clinicians understand them. Thankyou Dr. Choi.
What’s the difference between the experienced emptiness in narcissism vs in BPD?
No difference, in both cases there's no Self, thus the emptiness.
First off, I loved this video. The only cautious aspect I would say was when the speaker talk about “dysphoria” with it being PRIDE month I’d like to just mention to anyone that reads this that dysphoria & being diagnosed with “gender dysphoria” are two different things.
Secondly, I love how it was not a sit down lecture length of remembering what was said etc.
Keep up the good awesome and amazing work!
I disagree. Edit: spelling
@@michelleyb.9709 about?
Queenssssssss!!!
What is the way to remove the emptyness / broken self.
I believe the feeling of emptiness mainly comes from not being seen by parents at an early age. Therefore one way to make this feeling progressively disappear is to become a parent to yourself and see/nurture/care the child inside. This is how we get in touch and activate the real self and allow it to grow and thrive. It takes time, and it may feel like forever. Durable changes don't happen overnight, they do take time to implement and rarely come without setbacks.
I believe that one of the keys to being succesful at that is to develop the feeling that we deserve to have a good life, a right to exist.
I think the sense of void often comes with self-contempt, as if we were faulty of our parent(s)' absence of consideration. Can't be them, since they're perfect, right, then has to be me. If self-contempt can be replaced by empathy, then things can start to change.
@@MrGpoulinYour first sentence is correct, but the rest not so much. The child becomes (constelates a Self) via the mother's gaze in first 36 months of his life (child is seen, given unconditional love), if he's not seen, there's no becoming (no Self, which is the so called emptiness or void). This is the reason people with BPD (including NPD, but for different psychological reasons) need others to feel alive/that they exist.
The emptiness is the worst. It's underneath the pain actually, thus it's often a later experience. That's where the hopelessness is. And when the emptiness becomes pervasive, inside and out, it's like drifting through outer space, unable to connect.
Good video but I don’t like the viewpoint that we should try to be able to describe who we are in a neat little package.
Life is all memory
Is it true that BPD get easier with age? A lot of these descriptions remind me of my past, but not so much my present. I keep getting diagnosed with BPD when I disagree with it
It depends of a lot of factors…sometimes it does get better, as one of the markers for bpd is being impulsive. The front of our cerebral cortex tends to finish growing in our late 30’s or early 40’s…that is why some people with BPD feel a certain type of remission on their 40’s…but, again, it depends on lots of factors
Oh, and why our front cerebral cortex is important? Is the part that slows our amígdala, the brain part where our feelings stem out…so it becomes, kind of a “think before act” thing
Why do people with BPD always get stigmatized and compared to those with NPD?
Some of their characteristics overlap but BDP usually feel remorse and guilt after doing things narcissists might feel shame but only on their behalf .. they don’t empathize with the people they have hurt where as BDP can .
Plain and simple - BPD and NPD are two sides of the same coin. Same origin, different (mirror) solution.
A J Mahari says her BPD clients tend to explain their internal landscape as loneliness and her NPD clients describe it as emptiness.
Two sides of the same coin.
@@A_n_y_t_i_m_e yes, but the perception is different. That says something.
@@pauladuncanadams1750 Both are the mirror image of oneself. Impaired reality testing. One mistakes the world for oneself, other mistakes oneself for the world. That's why NPD and BPD people "love" each other and are extremely frequently drawn (NPD consumes the BPD person). As said, two sides of the same coin.
@@A_n_y_t_i_m_e "One mistakes the world for oneself, other mistakes oneself for the world". Not sure what you mean by that.
im really depressed rn and I need someone to talk to pls I need help I have 99 reasons to go. :((
Did you find someone to talk to ? Hoping you have and you feel better.
does she practice private therapy for individuals or is she only research oriented?
Its a personal experience..the emptiness that is.
BDP is destroying my life, I'm with a wonderful man, who loves me and my son, who is patient and caring, and yet, even do I'm aware of how I act, I keep doing it. I cannot afford therapy or treatment and I don't want to be alone, but he doesn't deserve to be with someone that might be great at times, but has this horrible temper and fear
Keep being honest with him and I hope you two work it out. If my ex had been as honest and aware as you I'd have supported her forever. I could take the lashing out, but she would never apologise or be to blame for anything.
@@JohnSmith-wo7ns when I was a child my parents never apologized for their horrible fights, that's why I do it, because I know it's important. But, at some point if I don't change, I know he might leave ..
@@DianaSoleil123 I think youre openness is incredibly positive, I hope your partner can appreciate what you are trying to change. Of course its not easy but you are trying. I think that's amazing.
@@JohnSmith-wo7ns thank you, I truly appreciate it
@@DianaSoleil123 no problem good luck to you both.
i dont understand how to get help because its so useless as an individual person life seems so useless and pointless, life to me is nothing, i have things i attach myself to things that bring me comfort because that is the only thing on the planet that brings any sort of purpose, everything around u isnt real or natural our existnce is so random i dont feel surpised so many people are 'depressed' or whtver u want to label it as because this is a patterned lifestyle made up to just fit our random existance, the only thing natural is freindships or interactions with your own kind, i often feel like poeple with bpd were shown what the world really is too early in life and have just become so self aware its killing us having to pretend we dont know or remember the things we do or have the intense emotions we have. living with myself is insuffrable i hate myelf and being stuck in a room with me is living hell my body always feels so heavy and i want to rip it off and just stop for even a moment and not have to think or feel the way i do sometimes, theres nothing i feel when im happy, happy is numb and it goes away for me almost the minute it gets there because its so forgin to me to have that emotion, the second i ever felt happy with something it got taken away from me ever time and i learned that not a single thing or person i had was perminant
I have a feeling that BPD often improves with age and maturity
Many people suffer from internal emptiness and negativity but are able to navigate the World quite successfully
Too many Labels
We all struggle but life has to be challenged and lived
Thank you for your comment. I am going to put a bit of a challenge to your comment in here, albeit totally grateful for it. So... BPD does and doesn't improve. The gross (as in flashy) symptoms seem to resolve with age - according to what researchers say (John Gunderson & Mary Zanarini, on our channel, address this) - but the deeper inter and intra-personal stuff is more resistent to changing. The reason people tip over into this diagnosis is, in part, because they struggle to function and "live." They can't just "get on with it."
I'm 63 and only got diagnosed less than two years ago. It doesn't improve with age in my opinion. I'm worse now than I've ever been.
emotional vs logic
Why does identity need to be constructed on achievements? Can we have just an identity based on existing without any achievements? If I construct my identity based on achievements and then those are gone or I lose a job and I am not able to find another one, or a person gets diseased and can't do certain things anymore, where do they derive their identity from then? I've seen certain people who were let's say bodybuilders or dancers and they were not able to train anymore because of disease and they wanted to kill themselves. That's not really a strong identity when they've built it around certain activities. Then they have suicidal thoughts because they don't know themselves beyond that activity. I think we should construct our identity just based on being, not achieving. You can build an identity on that you are a warrior who has a difficult life but you are not giving up on yourself and you are trying to make something out of your life. That's a strong one and can't be taken away from you.
I think achievements could also be achieve a state of inner peace, a hobby that you value, or a successful interpersonal relationship.
I understood that the doctor suggests identifying to ones's positive roles, job or values, in order to strengthen this lack of sense of self in BPD. It's about a routine and activities the person identifies to in actuality, instead of letting the emotions and emptiness lead.
My ex has bpd and ruined my life, they are self absorbed, selfish, disgusting pos. Period.
Similar, unfortunately
@@JohnSmith-wo7ns stay strong.! One day they'll feel the pain and the loss.
@@philphil4042 hope so Phil, she was totally in denial and caused me a lot of damage. Thank you.
It's like a monster on my back
For everyone with BDP. Pay attention to what you eat. All your moods swings are caused by your food. Outside world is just manifestation of what is going on inside of you.If you had this knowledge you would never drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, drink coffee or even tee and eat spicy food. The point is we are not disconnected to our bodies as "normal" people are. We sense everything and don't let our minds to work properly in the state of imbalance. "Normal" people can and it's not good at all. How is it possible to get cancer or stroke? Only through many years of harming yourself and not detecting it. I get that you want to fit in and be consuming all the things that are bad to you for the sake of not feeling like a freak I get it. Also I get that I'm some guy on internet that tells you that not a professional. The only way to check if I'm right is to introduce it in your life. Healthy eating has more nuances and is quite individual, but as soon you know which food makes you relaxed and which makes you more alert/anxious you can tailor your own optimal diet.
There is something a lot more fundamental than eating habits in the disease and it has to do with how the personality has evolved (or to what refrained it from evolving from an emotional point if view). Subconscious defense mechanisms are not triggered by food.
I had 3 times suicide trying ! But i still figthing
Don't give up Willy. All the best to you.
If I can’t fill this emptiness I will be dead within this year.
It’s ‘doom’
I call it the void
Omg amazing ist like her minds transparent she reads you like a book omg were naked she's awsomw
It that masking tape and toilet paper on your computer?
I'm a walking void, a blackhole.
This Asian woman is fucking terrifying
How can that woman not have a feeling of emptiness / void if she’s been diagnosed with “BPD”? Even her attitude as the woman speaks, so rude. No, she has the wrong diagnosis, more like bit*** bipolar to me. You can not have borderline without that one trait, you can not have all but that’s a given to all of us who do have it. So disrespectful. Shame on her.
But has this girl really borderline personality? She doesn't have a lot of symptoms!
the one thing in common for all with BPD is the PAIN you cause and will cause and ultimately derive pleasure from causing
I disagree. I’ve known two people who have BPD very well. One of those people seems to enjoy causing pain but the other wasn’t like that at all.
@@secondhorizon you could pretty much say that about anyone.
This take you seem to have misses the variation of BPD experience entirely.
@@secondhorizon I give you Nazi Germany, amongst other examples.
@@secondhorizon Putting an entire group of people in a box like you did with your comment is dangerous. Also variation is not a claim it's a certainty in any so called research and especially in a medical context.