I got to spend some time with an Alto Horn!! (and perform the Hindemith)
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2022
- #frenchhorn
A little chat about a nice french alto horn I borrowed from my teacher back in April and May, very very fun.
Music in this video:
First three-- Excerpts from the Hindemith Alto Horn Sonata
End duet-- 1st movement of No. 19 from 6 Duos de Genre for cornets or saxhorns, Op. 28 by Joseph Forestier - Hudba
In Australia in the '70s we called these the E♭ horn at my school. I transitioned from the euphonium to the E♭ horn then onto the Cornet.
Very cool!
Nice playing. It made me giggle a little. Where I teach in England, there are many more 'tenor horn' (alto) players than French horn. Mellophones, on the other hand, are an internet curiosity.
How interesting! It is basically the opposite here in the United States--few even know of the alto/tenor horn's existence. Meanwhile we have mellophones by the hundred in every high school and college marching band, and french horn is the standard concert instrument. Fascinating how different it is depending on the culture.
Awesome..
Your comments about fingering confusion and transposition and perfect pitch absolutely rang true to me. When I was in high school, I acquired a 3-valve G mellophone bugle which I used in marching season alongside my section of F mellophones…. and I also have absolute pitch. Which made the ADDITIONAL transposition harder (but I brought it on myself, so I couldn’t complain). So when I saw a D on the page in the marching band music, I fingered a C, and the note that came out was a concert G. Absolute bullshit but it was nonetheless fun somehow.
Haha, yes! "Absolute b.s. but nonetheless fun somehow" is one of the most relatable comments I've heard. It's way harder than it should be but for some reason the challenge itself is exhilarating. Totally
In case you want to skip around to the music:
0:11--Hindemith Sonata First Movement opening
3:59--Hindemith Sonata Second Movement opening
10:41--Hindemith Sonata Second Movement excerpt
21:58--Forestier Duo
Maybe I can add a bit of info. Older instruments were not built in a standardized (low) pitch such as 440 Hz. Many of them were built to high pitch, often 453, and many were built in other pitches. Maybe yours was one of the odd-pitched ones, and the inserts were included to allow playing in a range of pitches.
My old King alto has an insert after the valves which allowed it to play in F or in Eb. When I got it, there was a Bach m'piece that was quite deep and it allows me to play it with quite a characteristic 'sweet' tone. I have found others close to the shape of a trumpet's m'piece cup; of course, their timbre sounds closer to a trumpet or cornet. Being mostly a horn player, I naturally prefer the deeper cup one.
One caveat, the in-staff E is often quite flat in these non-perfected altos; I cannot lip it back in mine, so I play E with the 1-2 combo; curiously the Eb is less out of pitch and I can lip it up to pitch. That is the biggest problem I face when playing it.
BTW the Yamahas I've tried play pretty well in tune. Find a British Brass Band to play alto in.
Cool man! Yeah that may be right, it's an odd-pitched one. I have wanted to experiment with mouthpieces, but I didn't get the opportunity in the short time I had this particular horn, I didn't want to mess up my embochure, so I stuck with the safe solution and used an adapter. There are a lot of very out of tune notes on this horn, requiring a lot of alternate fingerings and adjustment, but for my performance I made it work!
Having worked with 19th century saxhorn music, I found that the Eb saxhorn (cornet) was notated as the soprano, the Bb saxhorn (cornet) was the alto, the Eb (alto) was called the tenor, then there were baritones, and basses. So that may be where the tenor/alto confusion comes from.
I think you're right. It seems especially a descrepancy between the U.S. and the U.K. Very curious
Thanks for sharing! Very informative.
I've been a trombone player for 40+ years and recently picked up a 1891 Conn alto on a whim because I thought it might be cool. I seem to have developed an affinity for quirky and oddball instruments 😊
I love the tenor horn! It has caused me to have to learn about transposing instruments and of course the treble clef. Worst case scenario my working knowledge of music theory will expand, and that's a good thing.
The tenor does have a great sound and I can definitely see myself playing this in regular rotation with my slide and 4-valve 'bones.
Very fun! Keep at it!
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😆appreciate it man🙏
At 1:10, you ask, "Why would a horn player want an alto horn?" This is my observation: Curiosity is why I bought an alto horn. I've been playing the (French) horn for most of the past 60 years--all in concert bands. The alto horn is sort of the predecessor to the (French) horn in concert bands. If any of you horn players out there, have ever had to transpose E-flat horn parts, in older music, because there wasn't an F horn part written, that's because prior to the (French) horn in bands, the alto horn was the more common E-flat brass instrument. A little less common was the mellophone (not to be confused with the marching mellophone used in contemporary marching bands.) It's been my observation that before 1920, E-flat horn parts were the norm. Then around that time, F horn parts began to come into use. About that time music publishers began to print both E-flat and F parts--often back to back in the printed music. That procedure lasted, in my experience, through the mid-1950's. Then, F horn parts only, were written. (That's in the United States. In Europe, much longer.) The most recent piece of music I've played that was published in E-flat and F was Persichetti's "Pageant." (Published in 1954.) The alto horn is commonly used in British-style brass bands. Here in Seattle, we have three of them. All very proficient groups. Now, I'm going to buy a copy of the Hindemith Sonata and work on it! If anyone can correct, or improve upon my observations, I'd be pleased to hear from you.
Very cool stuff! I've observed many of the same things. Curiosity is very much the reason I wanted to explore the alto horn as well. And I must admit, the reason why I asked that question rhetorically is because in my experience of being surrounded by french horn players in the conservatory setting, many of them are not curious and have no interest in such an exploration, which has very often made me feel quite silly for having the curiosities I have. But I'm always delighted to hear of other musicians curious about the same things I am.
Hey there! I'm loving your videos and especially your playing - you have such a beautiful tone and wonderful phrasing! I am a fellow multi-instrumentalist. I have a DMA in piano performance from UT-Austin, but also grew up playing and studying trombone and euphonium. In the last few years I picked up the French horn and fell in love; it's such a challenging instrument but the sound is absolutely worth it... I hope to one day approach your level of playing, but I have a lot of practice ahead. I also have absolute pitch...the transposing thing really hit home. My ears are 'tuned' to concert pitch, so it took me a while to get used to reading in F (and of course other keys) for horn playing....like you said, always transposing. It's good for the brain, I suppose. 🙂 Looking forward to your future content!
Wow that’s great, Kris! How neat you can play piano and brass as well, I’m sure that is very useful indeed! And yes, transposition is such a wacky thing for us, but it can be a fun challenge too. I transpose by use of imaginary clefs, I wonder if you do as well? Merry Christmas to you and happy new year!
@@andrewstump6138 Hey there! Thanks for your kind response. :). Sometimes I use different clefs to help with transposition - i.e. for things in Eb or E, I just think of bass clef and add 3 flats or 4 sharps. For Bb and F, I think of the intervals of a whole step or 5th down from concert pitch. If I think of moving clefs for other transpositions, I often get confused so my brain works better with thinking of the intervalic relationships vs. concert pitch...but I still need a lot of practice.
I started on the alto horn/althorn! This used to be the standard "beginner instrument" for any brass player over here in Norway, really. Still is to some degree!
I have two myself: A Boosey & Hawkes Regent (60s-70s) and a Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy from the mid to late 1800s. The older one has much narrower tubing, looks kind of goofy next to the Boosey. It also has a much airier sound. Could be due to the nature of older valves, but it sounds better with a deeper trumpet mouthpiece. Mine was also sharp, Eb at about 450-455 or something. So I made an adapter from a junk mouthpiece (cut off the shank) and a leadpipe receiver, soldered together!
Wow awesome! I'm learning just how different it is in other countries--here in the United States the alto horn is basically obsolete and very few people know of its existence. Very cool to hear other countries are still using it regularly. Very fun stuff!
Gorgeous tone! I'm really surprised such an old horn is at modern pitch. I always seem to find low pitch ones of that age that I can't use with any modern instruments.
How do you do the thing where you combine two videos of yourself into one and have it synch up perfectly? I've tried this before with iMovie, but things are always off just a bit at best.
Thank you! Yeah, I'm not sure actually that this horn was intended to be at modern pitch, I had to pull the main slide out almost all the way, and using a mouthpice adapter may have changed things as well, not really sure.
I just use iMovie for everything, it's easiest to use. All audio however I record into Garageband, and then export it as an mp3 and line it all up in iMovie as best I can. I'm not at all an expert at it but I make it work haha
Those are so rare and weird! It's basically a smaller Eb Alto version of the Bb Tenor Baritone Horn, similar in concept to the Eb Alto version of a Bb Tenor Trombone. There is a smaller version that's even rarer. It is pitched in Bb Tenor like a Baritone Horn that's called the Bb Tenor Horn. It is the same length as a Bb Baritone Horn but it has a slightly narrower bore and slightly smaller bell. That gives it that sharp classic Tenor timbre everybody loves. None of the Saxhorns have conical tubing, unlike the Tenor Tuba/Euphonium, which gives them all a rich dark tone. In the UK they refer to the Alto Horn as a Tenor Horn & nobody knows why. My guess is probably because it has a Tenor tone in the low range. But like i mentioned, there is an actual fundamentally correct Bb Tenor Horn as well. The Alto Horns don't get used much because they don't have a very wide range, whereas the Horn in F is pitched almost an octave lower in Double F Contra-Alto which gives it that classic rich heavy otherworldly sound & a very huge range from F0 to F6 depending on the player. I'm glad you're a nerd for weird instruments too, pls keep sharing!❤
Lovely! If you get a chance to get that horn back, try it with an actual alto horn mouthpiece. Denis Wick makes a great one. Timbre is very nice and more towards the band alto sound. (Might be billed as a "tenor horn" mouthpiece)...nothing like a little bit of confusion! Nice video frame matching and alignment at the end as well.
Thank you very much! Yeah I imagine a true alto mouthpiece is the best match for the instrument, but I don’t think I would ever try one, because, it’s just so different from a horn mouthpiece, it would damage my horn embouchure. I know from this from experience unfortunately
I feel the alto horn is a between the euphonium and the flugelhornn I know there are versions of the alto horn that are forward facing.
Yeah sort of; I think of the alto horn as really just a miniature euphonium, and yes there are bell-front versions, they look like adorable small bell-front baritones
@@andrewstump6138 yeah, I say this as I'm a flugel player who's learning euphonium.
I know for sure that King made a bell and valve forward alto horn in the 60s and 70s. My highschool owns 2 of them.
@Rylan Clarkson yes they sure did, the King "Altonium." Peculiar and adorable, I really want one.
@@rylanclarkson3296 Mine is like that, but I dont know the year.
Thank you Andrew for your interesting talk - and nice playing of the Hindemith first movement. Any chance oh posting your performance? That would be great! The tuning slide things are probably to do with changing from high pitch to low pitch, after adjusting the valve slides. I have a similar arrangement on my alto trombone (in Eb) which is built in high pitch. I agree the nomenclature is confusing - but being English and starting as a lad in brass bands on ‘tenor horn in Eb’ it’s familiar. Whether the type of alto horn you played is the one envisaged by Hindemith is a complex question! I’ll leave that question to others! Best wishes.
Hi Derek, I’m so glad you enjoyed it, and thank you! That is so interesting about the tuning system, what fascinating history there is! Yes I certainly do hope to post my performance of it soon. Thanks so much for watching!
Hello! Could you tell, what kind of mouthpiece do you use playing it (or its rim diametr)? Thanks!
I’m using a Laskey 75G french horn mouthpiece (17.5mm) with an adapter to make it fit onto the alto horn.
It's very telling that most scores that have Eb horn parts written out, they're doubling the F horn parts.
Still, I want one.
Yes indeed, although I wonder if occasionally some of those E flat parts are for a valved horn crooked in E flat. but yes, alto horn is way fun
@@andrewstump6138 I put it in the category of "wonderful, unique, rare, fun, and largely useless" 😆
...at least in a concert or marching band setting.
Brass bands are definitely a different story