I hate when people respond to any criticism of Alicent's flip-flopping motivations as "you just don't get her, she's a complex character." Inconsistency isn't complexity. A character who doesn't have a clear, established goal is not compelling or complex. Great video. 👏
@@mediaroom4181 The shift between S1E6, S1E7 and the first half of S1E8 and then the second part of S1E8 ans S1E9 was very jarring. S01E06, we do see that Alicent was plotting to usurp Rhaenyra ("everyone knows in their bones that you will be our next king, Aegon!") coupled with Alicent doing her best to undermine Rhaenyra's authority (the council scene where she intentionally points to Rhaenyra lactating to humiliate her) and especially her preoccupation with the paternity of Nyra's children. These are all actions of a woman who wants Rhaenyra gone and preferably d/ead, because in case this comes to light, exile is the best case scenario and mass execution is the worst. S01E08, Vaemond petitions to be granted Driftmark. Otto talks about the "looming war" and then Vaemond assures Alicent that when he inherits it, Driftmark will be indebted to Alicent (thus he is willing to be her ally); they already know that there will be a succession crisis when Viserys dies. If Vaemond is granted Driftmark ahead of "Laenor's" son (Laenor being Corlys' heir and Lucerys being Laenor's), that means Lucerys is illegitimate. Thus, Rhaenyra's entire claim for the Throne is compromised. Only Viserys' intervention prevents that from happening. And Alicent... just accepts that? For more than a decade at this point, undermining Rhaenyra and her sons was her sole goal, and when Vaemond kicks the bucket, she just shrugs and goes "them's the breaks, btw Rhaenyra you will make a fine queen :)"? If I were Alicent, I would be pissed. Is this not yet another proof to her belief that Rhaenyra gets away with everything? All her meticulous plotting ruined because Viserys once more favored Rhaenyra over his children with her? And then... the only thing that steers her back into the now-reluctant course is Viserys' delirious mumbling? You know, "Viserys changed his mind on his deathbed" would've been a convenient excuse and not without precedent in real-world history, but it would be believable only if it was an excuse made up by Alicent, but... she fully believes it for some reason. After witnessing him borderline rising from the grave to defend his daughter's inheritance in front of the entire court shortly. So after all, it was yet another big misunderstanding in a story where big misunderstandings are already a pattern and too often short-hand from creating actual conflict? Then S01E9 comes and Alicent assures the council that Viserys changed his mind. And this is is shrugged off because they were going to do it with or without Viserys' decisions. And then comes the "WAIT you have been planning this WITHOUT MEEEE?" What do you mean, without you? You were trying to get the Velaryon fleet on your side just the episode prior! For so long, you did not get a single ally in court sans Criston? You were leading that small council as Viserys' regent and the topic never came up? "Oh, they were planning this behind Alicent's back because she was a woman!!!" is a weak excuse to all this. "Everyone knows in their bones that you will be king, Aegon" so she must have known that people would favor Aegon's inheritance, why did she not try to seek out these people and ally with them? Did she think it will just happen out of thin air because she wants it to be? This is all done to make her hands clean in the end and shift the responsibility to the evil menz around her, because women are inherently incapable of political ambition and their womanly goal is to prevent war. Sorry for the rant but I feel very strongly about this, especially since I have a point of comparison with book!Alicent. It's a mess.
I’m not going to pretend inconsistencies equate to complexity, but sometimes people flip flop for many different reasons. Also, I don’t think she didn’t know they were going to make her son the king, her issue seemed more with that they were planning things without her.
@@anotheryoutubeuser She never fully agrees to what Otto is telling her, it's just another argument that adds to her already tense relationship with Rhaenyra. And in episode eight she stops contesting Rhaenyra's claim... when Viserys steps in and basically makes it his dying wish that they stop the infighting. What is she supposed to say to Rhaenyra? "Hey, once your dad dies, I will take over the throne, alright?"
@@matijerzykom If you think about it, it doesn't really make sense in the context of the show. Rhaenyra has to eliminate any potential challengers to her and her line's claim to the Iron Throne once she succeeds Viserys. Alicent and everyone else knows that. Even if Rhaenyra's claim isn't contested during her reign, when she passes away, no one will recognise Jace's right to the Throne, not only because he is a bastard but also because there are trueborn heirs of Viserys from Alicent's line. That is why Alicent's decision to suddenly acquiesce to Rhaenyra's succession would mean that she doesn't care about the lives of her sons, which makes it bad characterisation on the writers part to have her make such a momentous decision so quickly and without any sign of conflict or remorse.
Actually the way Alicent tries to "discipline" Aegon mirrors exactly how she feels about Rhaenyra. She tells him that the way he should honor his duty as a king is to do nothing. She wants to pull him down to her level because she's jealous of other people's freedom. Also I was never convinced that Alicent sincerely misunderstood Viserys. I think she interpreted it in a way that justifies her anger, and she made herself shut down any of her own doubts.
Exactly, I don’t know why they decided to interpret it that way… the better plot would have been her willingly misunderstanding it cause that’s what I got from that moment only to come online and find out it was an honest mistake.
Absolutely. That's what she wanted to hear him say and so she twisted it in her head to be what she heard. I do hope this is only a momentary regression and not a redesign of the character.
@@luvgod927idk who told you it was an honest mistake, the showrunners are very supportive of the audience have their own interpretations of what happened so whoever told you probably just thought that and decided they were right
Alicent had power and wanted to keep it that's the bottom line... she was queen for 20 years and didn't want rhaenyra to succeed over the queen over seven kingdoms which is why she usurped the throne
What sacrifice??? Woudnt it made more sense that she wanted revenge on otto, for using her as pawn?. And she knows what her sons are. Is she fine with aegon and aemond being free to rape and kill alll they want, and civil war being guaranteed, just so she feel better?
Alicent wanted righteous but lawful justice against Raneara. Her whole complex is founded in duty, honor, and religion. She wants revenge out of anger, but to justify it, the revenge needs to be in the form of justice following those principles. Plotting behind the King's back to usurp the throne against his wishes does not follow any of that belief. She needed the King to legitimately change his mind. That is why she was so quick to accept the miscommunication, and why she was disgusted by the small counsel. It is also why the revelation of this deceit and her own wrong interpretation sends her spiraling. Her character writing was remarkably consistent.
Consistent in that she’s an absolute hypocrite that only stands by duty, honour and her religion when it suits her. She’s a perfect fit for Westeros, an illusion of honour, decency and chivalry hiding ambitious, vindictive corruption. What makes her so unpalatable and inconsistent is the insistence that she’s still at heart ‘a good person’ when she isn’t and hasn’t been for most of the series and the show’s still dragging its heels to let her accept it.
@3MB4R I do not think she is ever really meant to be viewed as a good guy. Understandable and sympathetic, sure, but good, absolutely not. The hypocrisy is the point of her character. She is the stereotypical religious zealot that will ignore their own morals when things get rough. That does not make her character inconsistent. In fact, it is the entire point of her character. She has all of these grand ideals, but when they are faced with even a slight crack, they all begin to crumble. Then all you are left with is a broken woman.
@@lilBabyJesus2112when I say her still being at heart ‘a good person’ I mean her view of herself (though her character definitely have some insane fans that believe that), it’s eroding in the second season but in the first season she really thought her actions were fine because she was in the right - which was why I found surrounding herself with the symbols of her religion in the latter half so funny and fitting, trying to rebrand herself after a murder attempt in front of witnesses. The problem is that it’s taking too long with this will she won’t she commit to a stance. When she was told not to get involved she wouldn’t stop, when she’s told to get involved and do something suddenly it’s all out of her hands. We’re watching her waste screen time going in slow circles at the detriment to the development of other characters. It’s ambling and dawdling when we’re down to 8 episodes from 10, the pace needs to pick up and instead they’re skipping storylines and removing characters to show us Alicent having yet another bath while looking maudlin.
They really should've went with paranoid Alicent. They have set it up so good. Alicent feeling lied to by Rhaenyra making her lose her trust on her, Otto planting that fear on her head that Rhaenyra's court would want her sons dead, and then Rhaenyra marrying Daemon who hates the Hightowers so much. Like those are valid reasons for her to fear Rhaenyra ascending the throne because of fear. Like she doesn't have to be power hungry but just the fear of what Rhaenyra or at least the people around her would do
Thank you! Season 1 Alicent loved her kids. Season 2 Alicent could care less about them. I thought the reason she wanted to crown Aegon was to protect her children? Its complete character assassination.
Her girl boss aura is contrived and not believable in wartime you cooperate with people you dislike or don’t respect….because that is the way you survive. And she is reading those ancient history books did she not learn dragons even with incompetent riders win wars to make a dragonrider feel useless in wartime is just STUPID.
Not really. If you actually observe young alicents scenes with her kids, she always looks disconnected or overwhelmed by them. And that is justified. Having had kids at 15 out or marital rape. Quite frankly you can see her suffering from some form of postpartum depression till episode 6. She always has her maids take her babies away from her. Worse than restricted, alicent was neglected. Viserys as a husband was barely functional, her dad was clearly barely a dad. All that neglect turned to bitterness. That’s my assessment of alicent.
I couldn't say it was post-partum but she was definitely disconnected as a mother. I can't remember scenes with her lovingly interacting with her children. Even in a scene with young Helaena she seemed more as an observer of the child not fully interacting. I'm not surprised about her dynamic with her adult children. She lost her youth married to a man she did not love, who was decaying before her eyes. I think she's just full of regret, angry and bitter
I really think everything about alicent makes sense if you believe she believed making her son the king was between her and her father. In that plan she was her father’s equal. They were working together towards a lawful claim to the throne but they were beat at their own game when daemon took their ally. She thinks they didn’t succeed in their goal when she tells rhaenyra she’ll be a fine queen. But at the last second they have a lawful Hail Mary, viserys changed his mind. Alicents upset with her father when shes realized everyone was in on the plan because she was yet again one of the many pawns instead of being equal partners with her father as she thought.
Alicent not being in on the plan made no sense. She was lock in step with her father since she was 16. The only reason she didn’t know about it was so the producers could convince you to still like her. After usurping the throne. Like she says in season 2 to Aegon. SHE WAS RULING during Viserys lasts days as queen regent. How could she not know the plan???? Explain it.
@@TheKillaShowbecause they knew she would want to do things by the rules. A big part of Alicent’s character is her moral righteousness. She wants to believe she’s a good person and that she’s doing the right thing. Meaning that she would have never agreed (or at least not be fully on board) to usurp Raenyra’s rightful throne in the dead of the night like that. And Otto knew that. What Viserys said is only an excuse for her to think she’s a good person. I mean before that she said to Raenyra she’d make a fine queen, because she thought she had lost.
Not like otto told her aegon shoud be king when aegon was 2, and "we play ugly game" at driftmark? If she accepted Rhaenyra will be queen, she would not so easily be convincing by barely conscious Viserys words.
Alicent’s jealously and self-righteous attitude makes her easy to manipulate, but she eventually relented to Rhaenyra being the rightful heir. However, she only did so because she could no longer justify her position. Her husband’s last words were nothing more than an excuse for her to fall back on her word. She didn’t misunderstand him because what he meant never mattered. She heard what she wanted to hear. She isn’t reluctant to admit that she misunderstood his final words. She’s reluctant to admit-to herself-that she is a spiteful hypocrite. And instead of being remorseful, she becomes more stubborn and angry. She knows she is in the wrong. Only now, she can’t blame Rhaenyra.
The problem is that the show established that Alicent wanted to protect her children and made a lot of emphasize on it - Otto leaving her with fear, her protecting Aemond, her lecturing Aegon - now it doesn't matter. They changed it to " well, she's a hypocrite"
@@yasmina3999protecting her children was just another excuse though, and the only moments where she acted as if she was a slightly good mom was still for her own self-service and/or to use it against rhaenyra
@@calendul3ae it wasn't, it was a legitimate concern that was clear from the show. If you don't believe me then watch/ read what writers or actors wdre saying during the season 1.
I couldn’t agree more. We see Alicent go through too many inconsistent mind frames. One second she wants Aegon on the throne and sees it as an inevitability and the next (in the same season, mind you) she’s confused and surprised by Otto and the council making plans to crown Aegon. It makes no sense. I’m frustrated by the writing choices and it’s making it hard to invest in these characters when I feel like the show doesn’t even know who they are.
@india31793 I understand your point but your gonna have to show me where in season one did Alicent really showed love to her kids because in comparison; Rhaynera shows more love to her kids then Alicent did from what I’ve seen. Especially in the scene when they talk about Aemonds eye
Well, this was never really confusing to me. She had the mindset that Aegon should be king, but usurping the crown from Rhaenyra like that under the guise of night, that just didn't sit well her "play by the rules" attitude.
@brieanawhite3579 She rushes at the Princess with a knife and puts herself in front of Aegon when Rhaenys threatened her family with a dragon at their coronation, too actions which would legitimately risk her getting killed horribly. Her relationship with her children is abusive as a result of her own trauma and its clear she doesn't know how to love them in a healthy way but the idea she has no love for them isn't consistent with her core character
The problem with this show is that the characters' personalities, thoughts, and actions in Season 1 and Season 2 are inconsistent. It's like the writers forgot what they wrote and started over.
She’s a conflicted character with mixed motives who doesn’t entirely know what she wants. That’s actually pretty realistic, and compelling. She wants to do her duty, but resents the sacrifices and is drawn to temptation. She wants to serve her father, her husband, her children, her friend, the realm but she usually has to pick a side and she also resents them all. She reviles Cole and Larys, but wants what they can give her. She sees herself as a long suffering person trying to do good, but also hates herself for her many failings. Aside from picking up a lot of emotional baggage, the other big change has been her loss of her compassion and ability to comfort others. Young Alicent was masterful at comforting Viserys, Rhaenyra and even Cole when they are suffering. Older Alicent is cold and distant and fails to comfort anyone.
Thank you! Alicent is... a real person! When we watch things we apply our own morals, knowledge, hindsight and god status as a viewer (we know things characters do not), we expect people to act just right, or what we deem to be right, in any given situation. This show has done an incredible job of portraying the convoluted mess that is the mindset of a real, traumatized teenager and how her set-backs manifested into conflicting adulthood choices. People fail to realize this is just how humans work.
@@bewwie9067 she is at least 36 after all timeskips. And sure, alicen doesnt need to have our morals and logics, but she shoud be somewhat consistent, and to shown when she changed mind, amd why. And most importantly, she knows otto have own motive of aegon on throne, she raised her kids to hate their nephews . She cant be shocked by what they are doing.
@@anjadjurovic9617 Childhood trauma has lasting effects into adulthood, it influences many behaviours and choices, an 80 year old can suffer with the insecurities their parents put on them through mistreatment, age doesn't really matter. But that's what I'm saying, humans are not consistent, human behaviour isn't consistent, right, and moral at all points in one's life, the very concepts of what is right and wrong can change for an individual.
i think thats actually the point lol. She didnt rlly want any of this, it was all manipulation and fear that got out of proportion and now in ep4 she realized the ONE thing she stood for, was a lie.
Not really. She opposed Rhaenyra's claim long before she misunderstood Viserys's deathbed rambling. Her initial motivation was compelling because it made sense for her to be jealous of Rhaenyra and anxious about the safety of her family if Rhaenyra ascended the Throne. She knows her sons are a threat to Rhaenyra's claim to the Throne, so if Rhaenyra succeeded Viserys, she would have to get rid of Alicent's sons to secure the Throne for herself and her line. The fact they show in S01E08 that Alicent is fine with Rhaenyra succeeding Viserys is a symptom of bad character writing. And everything that happens afterwards with Alicent's character just makes her less and less compelling with each passing episode.
The show is ridiculous and ignores the main point of the book is that by the laws and traditions of Westeros, trueborn male children inherit first before daughters and Rhaenyra has violated those laws while Alicent didn't. Her kids are actually trueborn and male which means their claims are lawful and an eternal threat of Rhaenyra's rule. It has nothing to do with the show-only prophecy or even Viserys mumbling Aegon.
Hotd is addaptation from book (fire and blood), where alicent is clearly villain. Show wants her to be nicer, but keep more or less same plot. So she is pawn for her father, and geniuely believes her kids are in danger, And also she misunderstood Viserys, and greens werent even including her....just exuse after exuse. Otto would crown aegon even if alicent wasnt there. And so alicent just end up on greens team, but not "acctually" because she still cares for Rhaenyra.
@@anjadjurovic9617 The show's portrayal of Alicent after S01E07 has been one bad decision after another. It is difficult to find anything about her compelling when it seems like the writers flip flop so often when writing her character.
Alicent wants to be a good daughter and wife. She wants to be dutiful and do everything as she’s supposed to. As she grows and develops mentally she discovers that she isn’t doing right by herself, she’s doing right by what every one else wants and that furthers the divide.
@@christinaulrich4445 who is everyone? Trying to paint her as both still firend with Rhaenyra and knowing of otto plan, doesnt make her conflicted, but very stupid. Show cover period of mkre than 20 years. Is she still not decided?
Its bad writing. And some sort of misguided and misunderstood feminism. They simultaniously tried to portray and decontruct a patriarchal society, to both criticize and (over)correct it at the same time. It just isnt landing. They are being plagued by the same issue that dragged down the last seasons of GoT, as in they cant seem to commit to the portrayal of the fan favourite (female) characters as anything but consistently moral and good, if maybe sometimes misunderstood, manipulated and placed in difficult situations, but always through no fault of their own, even if internaly it makes no sense. For whatever reason the showrunners have convinced themselves that the only way to write good and compelling female characters is for them to actually write them as good people. And nothing can be further from the truth. Female characters can be actually well written and also be envious, conniving, evil, destructive. Just think of Cersei. We all loved to hate her. She was a well written, internally consistent selfish character. And she was unappologetic about who she was. But this writing makes Alicent come of as delusional hypocrite, and it makes Adult Rhaenyra just plain boring. In her own story, she is static, she has no growth, she has been completely declawed as a character, and IRONICALLY she is now for sure relegated to a side character in relation to her father, her husband, her borthers and even her sons, and their internal conflicts and stories. She does not shine, she is eclipsed by men around her.
I agree. The scene where she tells Aegon he will be king and the later scene where she is shocked they had been plotting without her to crown him are in direct conflict with each other.
It almost like the men in her life undermined her and don’t respect her. Ofc they wouldn’t tell her. She showed to everyone when Jace took aemonds eye how emotional and impulsive she was.
@@Slowpiglet luke cut aemond eye, not jace. And while otto was acting shocked, he latter praised her and larsy offered to still cut Luke's eye. No way that she was not informed, or didmt know what men around her are.
Remember, that in S1, E7 at the family dinner table, She has finally accepted that Rhaenyra was going to be Queen, even telling her that she will make a good one. This happened right after Viserys supported his daughter yet again, in regard to her dark haired babies, so she (Alicent) was resigned to just accept it. So up until Viserys ‘changed’ his mind on his death bed, she had removed the notion of Aegon being king after him from her head. The mistake she made was thinking that just because she, as Queen had been resigned to accept that Rhaenyra would be queen, so would the council, hence her lack of knowledge (and surprise) about all the scheming.
@@nyagerguet5601 she just needed comlpiment from Rhaenyra. And really, she just believed Viserys clearly not conscious words change 20 years of him insisting Rhaenyra is his heir? Alicent know aegon is not king material. Alicent knows otto wanted aegon as king since he was baby, despite Viserys clearly not changing his mind. It woud make most sense if she was just politely lying at dinner. But no, alicent is good person, its just everyone else fault!! She never even trought otto might still want same!
I don’t see it as it having to be one or the other - I think both things are true at once. She is jealous of the freedom and struggled between her friendship and her father’s teachings that She and her kids would be in danger if Aegon didn’t become king. She knew the plan was to put him on the throne ultimately, but I think she was surprised that the plan was already so far along without her involvement. As you mentioned, because of her need to feel like she is morally superior she might not even be fully aware of her jealousy and pettiness towards Rhaenyra , so when the misunderstanding happened at his deathbed, she convinced herself that THIS is the true reason, so she can hold on to her false sense of self, and conveniently gloss over her active part in putting aegon on the throne from way before Viserys’ death.
I agree! I think what’s bigger than Alicent’s anger and jealousy is her paranoia and fear. She’s correct in her fear that her children could be murdered by either Rhaenyra or more likely, her supporters. We’ve seen it in history where extended family gets killed during a succession crisis. I think she’s incredibly desperate. It might look like she has power but I don’t think she realizes how irrelevant her opinion is. Larys uses her and she knows it to an extent, but she’s so desperate that she NEEDS his intel and will get used to gain it. The council doesn’t care about her. Aemond doesn’t care about her. Criston undermined her by plotting with Aemond. Otto obviously doesn’t care about her feelings. Viserys didn’t care when Aemond lost his eye, nor did Rhaenyra. I see her as a “cafeteria Christian” where she’s concerned about the gods punishing her but she’s not very holy herself. She uses the faith of the seven to present an image, but unfortunate for her nobody cares about her or her opinions. She’ll take any Avenue to cling to power so that her family can survive. People want to see Alicent as Cersei and I think that’s why she’s so hated.
Making it about “tHe pRopheCy” was when Condal lost the whole plot. Alicent is ruthless and hypocritical in someways but she’s complex and sympathetic as well. People completely forget that “Rhaenyra is the rightful heir” is not a given. Her claim is “because father said so damn Andal law and tradition and the complexity of codifying changes to long standing tradition”. It’s tragic and sad that she works so hard to uphold a system that imprisons her and women like her, but perhaps more tragic still that Rhaenyra is not fit to be ruler whatsoever as she’s entitled, unprepared, and allies with influences like Daemon. Alicent is pushing for Aegon II partly due to an anger and jealousy she never resolved but also pushing for what is arguably the sounder future as the realm will tear itself apart with a ruler like Rhaenyra with a king consort like Daemon, a bastard as heir, and a bastard usurping Driftmark. On top of that come hell or high water, a mother will protect her children. Alicent loves and is willing to kill and throw her life on the line for them, prophecy be damned. It should’ve always been about Alicent putting Aegon II on the throne because she believed (validly so) her family’s lives were at stake because Aegon II is the challenge to Rhaenyra’s claim. It should’ve always been about Alicent doing what she believed will save her family and what is better for the realm as a whole out of duty (however tragic and self sabotaging it is). That scene when Alicent goes to attack, they call each other out. Rhaenyra is right pointing out Alicent is bitter and angry and her righteousness acts as a cloak for that. But Alicent is right as well. Rhaenyra, for all the power and responsibility she has as heir, flouts it to do as she pleases. It’s quite interesting. Uphold everything unquestioningly and you build a prison. Flout every duty and responsibility and you end up undeserving and incapable of wielding the things and power you are given.
S1 Alicent: I love my kids and will crown my son because I cannot trust Rhaenyra will let them live, especially not with her monster of a husband Daemon, and I am committed to doing so, as peace was never a option after my son was maimed and Rhaenyra wanted him tortured. S2: Screw my kids, it’s all their fault for everything, I love Rhaenyra so much, Viserys was totally great and Rhaenyra should have been queen, why did I make such a mistake, I’m not gonna backdown now but I’ll still let Rhaenyra visit me in secret. It’s so baffling, you could have her be a bit unsure after Storms End, but Blood and Cheese should have been the moment her dial set permanently to war mode.The fact during the conversation with Rhaenyra she never once brings up that and the specific fact it was Daemon who organised it and Rhaenyra will not punish him, nor will she be able to stop him from doing anything is so infuriating.It could have been a epic moment of Alicent letting Rhaenyra know just how stupid she was for coming to ask for her crown back as if her grandson wasn’t just murdered at her husband’s hands and everything would be fine, and how much of a deluded fool she was for marrying and allying with Daemon, because she always knew how much of a monster he was but didn’t care so long as it benefited her, like Vaemond’s murder which she never had a problem with.That as long as Daemon lives, there will be no peace, asking if she will let Aegon have justice for his son with Daemons life, which is a rhetorical question because Rhaenyra for all her protests of disgust and horror at the act cared more about how it hurt her politics rather then the abhorrent nature of the crime, and always chose to look past what Daemon is.Then leaving, saying the hightower flames will be burning around Dragonstone before she knows.
1. And yet show pulled, "You will be good queen", and "misundrstoood Viserys ' and her being shocked otto and rest of greens were going to crown aegon. Almost as making exuses, because greens are in wrong. 2. Hotd made worse bulshit with Rhaenyra. Alicent sent apology for dead son, and Rhaenyra risk her life to talk to Alicent. Greens have 1.stolen Rhaenyra crown 2.killed her son, 3.imprisoned and killed nobles loyal to her 4. Sent aryk to kill her. Compared to that, as cruel as killing child was, team green have done more against team Black . 3.alicent is not in position to trheraten anyone. Her own father and son doesnt respect her. 4. Hate daemon all you want, he remainst best. (And Why didn't green respond with justice when aemond killed lucerys, but apparently Rhaenyra is evil for not executing Daemon )
I agree 100%. I was literally shocked how suddenly different Alicent was since the very beginning of season season 2. And it had zero sense. They ruined her character imo.
@@Skrzacik not really, 1. Season was going for poor victim alicent, she never wanted anything, it was all otto manipulation. It woudnt work with this idea of alicent threatening with "hightowers flames". And this silly comment wont aply own logic to green, why dont green punish aenomd for killing Rhaenyra's son (and dont try, it was accident) to show justice?. Why wont Rhaenyra bring up anything greens have done to her? Why dont Rhaenyra point alicent was stupid for trusting otto and her sons, when she knows what they are?
I agree with this. I'm like wtf, where was the Alicent after the time jump. She just changed so much. Also, not related, I actually 'got' Aemond and his decisiveness. Sure, he's not kind, but I think he's truly fighting for the lives of the Greens (his family in exception of Aegon since obviously ..y'know lol). Letting his mum acting all 'temperate' (flip-floppy) is not good for their lives.
@@anjadjurovic9617 For me, both Daemon and Aemond are being decisive in their actions. They're not kind, and heck, I'd say they're cruel and so on, but they're both advocating for their families...
There is a part in the script that, I believe, indicates that Alicent had a crush on Cole the entire time. So she has more motivation there, but I think the reason why this works for me is because Alicent has the motivation of a coward, that is not an uncommon trait for a person to have, because most cowards don't know what they want...they usually just know how to avoid being the bad person. Alicent is a coward, and I think this story is giving a coward grace for showing why being a coward worked for most of her life, and was a habit in her later life.
Well no? what a terrible decision that would be. Parts of the script that alluded to this earlier idea for the character were left unfilmed and the character direction in s1 was massively improved bc of it. thanks to alexis and miguel most likely.
@@rhaenatargaryen8061 I was unaware of that part, I thought they still kept the motivation(having interests in cole) somewhat there because it would just add to the situation that Alicent did not have a choice in the matter while Rhynera did, and that her being so upset about Rhynera having freedom results not only in her lying to Alicent, but also having had the privilege to dispose of a man like nothing, who she valued. Like, it also ties a little bit into Alicent actually preventing Cole's decision to end his life. I feel like what you said actually applies perfectly because I can see how the resulting plot has still some of the initial footprint of that hypothetical infatuation on it.
Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous it was that Alicent would have absolutely no idea what any of the plans were for placing Aegon on the throne after Viserys died. It was stupid writing and completely negates everything they had shown us of the adult Alicent who was fully in control up to that point.
I don't understand why they keep contridicting her words and actions. She told Aegon that one day he would be their king. Then 3 episodes later she is unaware that the council has been plotting which makes no sense and strips her of agency. The scenes she has with Criston have no plot value and cheapens everything she was saying about Rhaenyra.
@@Thrawn23. the show won’t commit to her character, they make her a hypocrite then keep wanting to paint her as a victim of circumstance and then try and sell her as a voice of reason when these things just don’t mix. The show, much like GoT, has this problem with backhanded misogyny where they need to make the female characters never do anything bad that doesn’t come with a caveat that some exterior force made them do it - usually a man. All the women want peace, all the men want war even though there were overt times when it was the other way around in F&B. It’s bizarre.
@@Thrawn23. it is not that hard to understand. Alicent had the mindset that Aegon should be king, but usurping the crown from Rhaenyra like that under the guise of night, that just didn't sit well her "play by the rules" attitude.
Well, Alicent wishing to put out Luke's eye after no one gave a damn about her son being hurt is kinda understandable. It's an explosion of anger, and a strong one, and even though I think Alicent has no right to hurt Luke, I can't help but feel sympathy for her rage. She was the only one who said that the whole room's attitude towards Aemond was bullshit.
Harmimg luke woudnt return Aemond eye. And whole "Rhaenyra gets to do what she pleases" speech isnt least bit sympatetic. Blame otto for wanting her to marry Viserys.
How about Viserys being a weak ruler and poor father? Maybe he should have disciplined his daughter then she might not have chosen such a poor husband who would facilitate the future problems of succession. Easy to see why Otto did what he did because Viserys cared more about his daughter’s ego than the stability of the realm. Viserys really thought he could put a woman on the throne to ease his guilt and every other person affected would just stand there and do nothing because he said so. He was a weak, emotional, ego-centric, fool of a king who never made the hard choices for the good of the realm and his family. The title of the show should be “weak kings bring hard times” bc that’s the actual meta-commentary. House Targaryen was destroyed by weakness masquerading as compassion - by jealousy disguised as honor - by evil disguised as justice and by decadence disguised as freedom. The Targaryens are decadent because they control the dragons, and now that there is more than one faction (because Viserys was a poor leader) they will destroy themselves. All he had to do was 1) hurt his daughter’s feelings or 2) not remarry outside the family. He chose feelings over sense in both cases and now the realm will burn because of his sentimentality.
@@anjadjurovic9617 "Harming Luke wouldn't return Aemond's eye" - who could've imagined that, really 🙄 But surprise, people want revenge and follow the "eye for an eye" logic since time immemorial, Alicent feels the same at this moment because she is, well, human. It doesn't make her wish to hurt Luke right (I've already admitted that in my comment), but it is understandable. No more, no less.
@@readeroftheelderscrolls then is blood and cheese understamnke? And as for alicent going for lukeceye, and stabbbing Rhaenyra, and no proof alicent was ever punished for that, thats shows alicent isnt some poor victim punished for everything, amd that Rhaenyra can do whatever because privilege. So alicent envy? Annoying.
I think it is pretty clear that Alicent doesn’t want the life of the queen, she wants to be free as Rhaenyra fights to be. But she can’t, she was under the influence of her father and later by the burden of being queen, as you explained in the video, she really didn’t want anything. This is all true until she goes dressed in green to Rhaenyra’s wedding party. That is the moment where Alicent decides she want to feel freedom, the way she does it is to make herself believe that it was and is her choice to be the queen, that it is her choice to squeeze out heirs, and that it is her choice to do politics. So she begins to act differently no because she is different but because she wants that feeling of freedom and the only way she can is faking it. When she heard the kings last words she heard what she wanted to hear, blinded by her father influence and her false sense of choice. To answer the final question of the video, What does Alicent want? She wants to control her life, she wants to make her own decisions because she wants to feel free but because she can’t given the situation she’s in, she is forced to make her self believe that what others want is what she wants and that what she is needed to do is what she wants to do. In short, Alicent wants to be free but to feel free she needs to do what others want.
@@feliperincon3348 but she said to otto, she wont be his oawn anymore. And then she still is. She wants to be friend eurh Rhaenyra and peace, ut is on coup she knows divide realm.
@@feliperincon3348 also, alicent breakimg point is Rhaenyra lying to her? Since then she opposes Rhaenyra and wants aegon as king...exept not realy, its all about misunderstanding and alicent doesnt want conflict? Why she expect loyalty of Criston and larrys, when she knows of their crimes?
@@anjadjurovic9617 people say stuff and act in way that differ from their words. Alicent says she wont be her father's own but in the end even if she tries to convince her self and her father that she is capable of no caring she still cares and will act in a way to please her father. She wants freedom but she can't, she wants to stop pleasing others but she can't. Young Alicent arc stablishes that she couldn't care less about being a queen, about pushing baby's out of her womb then she embraces the idea of being a powerful woman and tries to make her own way of freedom. She says she doesn't want to do political stuff but yet she needs to do political stuff because she doesn't have an option. She hates his father in a way because it was him who put her in that situation in the first place but at the same time she understands her father's intentions, She doesn't want to do what he wants because she just doesn't want to but at the same time she wants to do it because its her father's wish.
@@feliperincon3348 so her arc is...she never grow up and wont cut ties with side of family she knows is danger to her. And this from plotline where she was geniuely involved in coup and hated her stepdauther...
They should have stuck with the source material with Alicent character. She was the main one sowing seeds of dissension since Rhaenyra was still “the realms delight” she never supported Vicerys making her his heir. I know modern media like to spin this “sisterhood” troupe but some wmn play just as dirty as some males in the big bad patriarchy. There isn’t always fellowship amongst men especially when jealousy, even and competition comes into play. Had the show runners stayed true to her character then Alicent pov wouldn’t seem so disjointed to the audience
One thing to correct, patriarchy doesn't exist. Feminism has hurt women in this decade (even before), it condemns and treats us like we were little girls. In everything else, I agree
Thats because book alicent is a villainous cardboard cutout inspired by roman historical catalogs seeking to blame women (alicent and rhaenyra both) for a catastrophe as a result of their wrath and gluttony
Hate what they've done to Alicent in the s2. I want the one with a knife in her hand protecting her child. The one who stood in front of the dragon. The one who would weep to see her firstborn burnt because of her, the one burning with rage for her children and grandchildren. Because at the end of the day she loves them to her bones
@@anjadjurovic9617 being Rhaenyra's siblings put them in danger because of Visarys. They are a threat to Rhaenyra and her kids just by living. Book Rhaenyra and Daemon would definitely killed the boys, because they have a claim, the war was inevitable. Also I don't see Rhaenyra even trying to be close to her siblings ever. Nor in the book or not in the show. She decided not to like them from the start because she knew this
@@vitalinaleks1101 not really, she offered them pardons at start of dance, if they accept her as queen. But when lucerys is killed, obivously she wont try to be nice . Seriously, she and daemon had oportunites to discretly kill greens during Viserys life. But no one even sugest they tried. Not liking them is no equal to murdering them. Greens usruped and used exuse of "we had to, she would kill us first"
You want her to keep fighting for her sons? The ones who don't respect her at all? Aemond simply set her aside after all she has done for them. Alicent is devoted and obedient but not stupid.
All they want to do is use Alicent as a method to diminish Aegon at every turn….she tells him what is needed is for him to continue doing what he has been doing……NOTHING…..which sounds like a good burn until you realize is Vhagar’s ancient ass and Aemond the only ones patrolling the city IOT counter any dragon attacks….ABSOLUTLEY NOT Aegon is the only other mentally fit dragonrider in the city. Alicent has become unbearable she was a great ruler in peace time congratulations than you crowned Aegon and started the war…and because of that you are now the authority on ruling.
Alicent is not fueled by jealous. She does everything out of the fear of her kids being murder because that's what her father made her believe. She pushs that belief on to her kids and it mess them up. Now she has to live with her consequences each and everyday.
@@cassiusfelix2805 and she believes that...because of otto. He is one rensponsible for her marriage and kids, but Rhaenyra lied about her sex life, obivously Rhaenyra is problem here, best to trust otto! And at end of season, she doesnt really care for her sons. Given how horrible they are, not sad, but it is horrible that she raised them to fear Rhaenyra and then she is wiling to sacrifice them. And obivously greens were in biggest danger once they usruped Rhaenyra. Aegon didn't even want crown.
it might have started at jealousy but to reduce it to that is reductive, at some point it became resentment that she and her family were the ones being punished for Rhaenyras transgressions and Driftmark is the perfect example of this but we see it even in Otto being fired and Alicent being further isolated all because he told the truth, it wasn’t even the kings decision to fire him he just conceded to Rhaenyras wishes.
Otto got fired BECAUSE he was stalking and spying on a royal and trying to do that to isolate and manipulate the King. It's essentially the same fucking technique he used against Daemon, only this time Viserys FINALLY put two and two together when the asshole tried to isolate and pit him against his daughter instead of his brother (which, frankly, says a lot about how Daemon is rightfully angry at Otto and Viserys about this crap but not Rhaenyra, who sure as fuck didn't force Otto to be a manipulative piece of shit). So, no, Alicent being angry at Otto FINALLY facing consequences for his shit-stirring isn't a good excuse, especially when she herself takes up slut-shaming as a weapon.
@irondragonmaiden Otto did the right thing. Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat doing reckless shit that would ruin her House's reputation. Someone had to alert the king. And Otto was right. Rhaenyra committed high treason by having three basterds and lying about their being true born heirs.
@@irondragonmaidenOtto got fired because Rhaenyra asked Viserys to fire him not because he suddenly realised some “master plan”. he only got mad when he realised Alicent never actually wanted him and he felt stupid. royal advisors having connections to keep informed about the happenings in the kingdom is common and not a crime. Rhaenyra and Daemon were being reckless and instead of just punishing Rhaenyra for being reckless he punished Alicent by firing her father and only support system. the only people in this scenario who needs “face consequences” is Daemon and to a lesser extent Rhaenyra
@@embel1213if I'm on my phone at work all day and my coworker tells my boss and I get fire, is it my coworker's fault that I was fired or my own? My own because I was on my phone instead of doing my job. Otto wasn't doing his job as hand and instead was too preoccupied by furthering the agenda of his house (even as far back as episode 1 with the Crab Feeder). Rhaenyra pointing this out to Viserys isn't her getting Otto fired, it's Otto getting himself fired.
@@misssoso5859 remember otto in ep 3. Already wantimg aegon as king. That's why he sent his daughter to Viserys. Disretditing Rhaenyra just so happens to help his plan to push fir his grandson as king? 2. Laenor and corlys were fine with Velaryons boys.
She wants her friend to be as righteous as she is, because she can't take it otherwise, she longs for Rae's freedom deep down, but can't accept it. This eats her from the inside out and makes the claws and ruthlessness come out.
I had a mother like this. Jealous of me and my bids for freedom, which she never had, so she tried to undermine me in every way possible. It's true, there is nothing like the fury of a woman's scorn. They will express hatred in ways that men never even think of, and in insidious ways, so hopefully the rest of the world won't notice, and still think they are a good person. Yes, they are the very definition of hypocrites. If they get any power at all, they are dangerous. At least my mother wasn't in a position to start a civil war. Allicent was, and didn't care about the chaos and destruction it brought. All she cared about was herself and her revenge. A great example of what jealousy and hatred can lead to.
Of course it’s Daemon’s fault, but Alicent feels guilty and tells her dad she feels dirty because ~allegedly~ Cristen was supposed to be guarding the twins that night
@@misssoso5859 one rensponsible was aemond who killed lucerys, which lead to revenge. I saw alicent there as self centered, thinking its about HER sins, instead of obivous reason.
I agree that Alicent had jealousy but I refuse to accept that it was her only motivation. Her main goal was to protect her children. But still, I agree that after episode 8 this motivation goes away too. The way they are butchering Alicent, her previously established motivation to protect her children and her relationship with them, reminds me about the times when GoT destroyed Jaime when he said he never cared for innocent. All of the most important and core events that were emphasized by the show regarding her character from episodes 1 to 7 formed into one logical and consistent line: she was driven into a corner and she has no choice but to fight for the children. •Otto leaving Alicent with fear that Rhaenyra will kill her children •Alicent declaring war •Alicent protecting Aemond ALL those things built the basis of her character. All of them had in-universe reasons and were understandable:what mother wouldn't fear for her children? From each big moment Alicent's fear was becoming stronger and there was no indication that she was ready for peace. She had beef with Rhaenyra for 10 years because Otto got fired. She didn't talk to her at all for 6 years after Aemond lost his eye. She didn't care much when Rhaenyra walked with Joffrey after the labour, she didn't want to marry Helaena to a bastard. It seemed cryel but it made sense and made her character flawed but consistent and logical. But then, after Rhaenyra and Daemon on purpose made Laenor's death suspicious, then they killed Vaemond in the throne room - and Alicent suddenly believes in Rhaenyra? She suddenly, without any reason, loses her fear for the children and changes her motivation to Viserys's wish, really? And doesn't really care when Jaehaerys gets killed? Just lets Rhaenyra escape, KNOWING very well that war is inevitable? After this moment, not only her entire development collapses, but also the very foundation of the character, leaving behind nothing but an empty shell after.
She never seemed to even cared about her kids..even her concern for Helena was motivated by making sure Helena wasn't going to tell..and Helena knows it..100% she's going to be OK with letting her son die, to put her other son in his place.
Two things can be true at once, I do believe in season 2 Alicent still love her kids but she doesn’t know how to show that love bc of the neglect she suffered from her own father. For example last season she slapped Aegon when he was a child screaming and grabbing his face, Alicent was always an abusive mother despite the love she had for her kids. Team Green just shows generational trauma and abuse.
I don't agree that she had no goal. Her goal was to serve her house and the realm and in general be a good person that honors their duties and then get a generic happily-ever-after. Not everyone's goal has to be something big and specific like "become the queen of seven kingdoms" or ""make your son the king of seven kingdoms". Also disagree that she was not interesting in the first five episodes. I think she and Rhaenyra are the most interesting and nuanced characters in the show, and I think her character was more interesting early on. She had this worldview that she has a set of duties to serve and as long as she serves those duties she will be rewarded. In the first five episodes we see the beginning of the subconscious unraveling of this worldview as she marries Viserys and is miserable because she is married to an old man, alienated from her best friend, trapped in the palace, and does not know when her happiness will ever arrive. And we see her take some of this frustration on rhaenyra when she sees that her peer does not seem to respect duties nearly as much as she does and does not suffer the consequences. I find that the first five episodes she was more interesting because she is more relatable here, compared with after the time jump when she was already completely jaded and in full cognitive dissonance
I think Alicent in season 2 has just succumbed to her fate. She knew it a lie to bring Aegon to rule but now there is solid proof that Viserys wasn't speaking of their son. It's shattering what little delusions she has left to keep herself from crumbling under her shame.
As a woman, I agree that we need not infantilize women or prevent them from being villains. But I’m okay with Alicent’s character being genuinely conflicted as a human being.
Alicents Arc this season is about her guilt that she was wrong about everything. That her motivations that she justified as righteous only furthered the misery of the realm. She has to live with her guilt but also her victim hood as a woman who had very little choices to do things differently and the choices she did have she made the wrong ones. This is pretty explicit cause Helena says "I forgive" she forgives Alicent for being one of the cogs that perpetuated war. Alicent feel guilty cause she misunderstood Viserys' last words. A character goal is not a requirement to making a character good and compelling. She doesn't need a goal she is going through emotional turmoil which is a result of her trauma and how that trauma motivated wrong decisions. The show makes this pretty clear.
The whole problem was about making her character about "patriarchy" and "jealousy" in the first place. This show is supposed to be fantasy inspired by Antiquity and the Middle Ages. A queen has every right to want her own son and blood on the throne instead of the daughter of another woman. Historical figures likes Livia Drusilla, Roxelana, Agrippina the Younger, Isabella of France plotted and killed people to have their sons become emperors or kings. And no, it's not because they were misogynists or jealous mean girls, it's because they had a brain and knew pursuit of power was above everything. Like Cersei said "You win or you die". But the showrunners of HOTD and the audience are visibly unable to put aside their modern values and immerge themselves in a fantasy universe with different codes and rules.
EXACTLY!! especially in a place like Westeros where male primogeniture is tradition. The prophecy being included undermines Aegons claim to the throne placing rhaenyra as a “chosen” heir when that goes against GRRMs writing. Queen mothers have always played the game to ensure their blood ends up on the throne, and in history it was just a game for survival and power! Like you said I can see instances of Olympias and Nurbanu sultan, real historical women doing anything in their power to ensure their sons end up on top . Anybody criticizing Alicent, don’t seem to understand they’d do the same if they had to choose between their own children or that of another’s. And it has nothing to do with female misogyny.
AGREED. And I also think it's being injected into Alicent (a WOMAN based on that period) that she was supposed to know all about cunning politics. I thinks she learned it as she lived, how different things are than what she imagined. I can relate to that: as a child, I thought everything was as simples as "follow the rules and if everyone also follows the rules, it will all be fine". But she's seeing that other people don't follow the rules and she's losing herself and her purpose to things she can't control.
No teenage girl wants to marry an old man, with or without a crown on his head. She never enjoyed a second of it, and while she does love her children, how much of that love is tainted by the way they were conceived? They're the biggest sacrifice she was forced to make, the power and the crown were the justifications she was given. She never wanted them selfishly, but for others. Call it tradition, her house, her husband, her father's ambition. Her father specifically played her like a pawn, and sacrificed her body and soul for his desire for power. She may not have been physically forced, but I bet you know manipulation never works that way. No human appreciates their agency being taken from them, not today or the middle ages or the fiction we humans create for our peers. Patriarchy may be a new word to you, but it has always existed, because oppression has always existed. Don't try to strip the media you like from depth just because you have a conflicting relationship with a concept, you're loosing too much.
@@Lu-li1ei I don't give a damn about the Alicent of the show. I was just pointing out why making this particular story about patriarchy was a flawed idea from the start. Queens in the Antiquity and Middle Ages would not care about this concept at all when scheming to have their sons rule kingdoms, they actually gained profit from it because monarchy is very much a consequence of patriarchy. The show didn't add any kind of depth to the story. Instead of having an ambitious queen who acts logically in regards to her fantasy universe, we got a weak victim who is only here to teach us moral lessons about internalized misogyny and the pitfalls of being a jealous mean girl. I don't watch fantasy to get lectured by Hollywood people who subscribe to corporate feminism.
No one speaks on the fact that Allison was an idealistic, naïve young girl believing life was actually black and white under her father’s guidance, when she started making her decisions in the first season. She is now a seasoned queen who has experienced life and now she and her children are suffering the consequences of those said decisions she made in her idealistic youth. She’s also beginning to see how naive she really was and it’s hitting her like a ton of bricks because she has no recourse.
I can't see jealousy as her sole motivation to be antagonistic towards Rhaenyra. The idea that her children would be in danger if Rhaenyra took the throne is backed up by Aemond losing an eye over an insult, an insult that is the truth mind you, and Viserys choosing to ignore his maimed and permanently disfigured child to side with his daughter and protect the lie. Rhaenyra finding her own freedom isn't a bad thing but Rhaenyra's freedom comes at a direct cost to others in a way that I can't consider moral, especially considering how little she cared about Aemond's maiming herself despite that being her little brother.
Aemond lost his eye because he held a rock over Jacaerys' head and was about to bash his head open. Oh, and he said that the Velaryon boys would burn "like their father" Don't threaten someone with death if you're not prepared for them to get violent right back. Rhaenyra's freedom (and Laenor's) doesn't come at Alicent's cost. For fuck's sake, Aegon et al have the same lives that any non-heir would have, hell, Aegon wouldn't be allowed to get away with half of the crap he does in another family. Explain, using small words, when Rhaenyra fucked Alicent over (no, Otto finally getting punished for shit stirring isn't Rhaenyra fucking over Alicent, if anything, she treated Alicent with kid gloves considering she whored herself out for a Crown behind Rhaenyra's back under Otto's orders, let's be brutally honest here, as other female characters would've reminded Alicent of that every time Alicent opened her mouth for anything).
@@irondragonmaiden Its repulsive that you describe Alicent being forced into marrying Viserys as her whoring herself to him, like in what reality is this literal child marrying Viserys wrinkly ass and being forced to go to bed with him on Alicent? Anyways, Aemond is a child and saying "He would have bashed their head in" is complete nonsense when he's getting jumped by several over children, one of which had a knife. Saying Aemond was trying to kill the Strong boys is as egregious as saying the Strong boys tried to assassinate Aemond, actually its less egregious as the Strong boys weren't the ones that got maimed. Rhaenyra's freedom does come at direct cost to other people that aren't Viserys nepo baby, her relationship with Harwin ends up getting the man killed along with his father, the heritage of her children require them to keep it a constant secret or else they risk being ostracized and puts them at odds with Vaemond (who also gets murdered to protect their claim born from a lie). Rhaenyra's freedom literally comes at a direct cost to Alicent puts her trust in her only for Rhaenyra to lie on the grave of her mother, something that gets Otto kicked out of King's Landing and leaves her alone.
@nuclear I mean I fully believe that Aemond never intended to actually kill Luke as he lowers the rock, but the Strong boys had no way of knowing that.
@irondragon Apparently you didn’t see the scene where Otto is literally preparing to knock on Viserys door. As he is clearly not happy about what he’s going to have tell Viserys (it’s literally his job to tell him as the crown princesses reputation being ruined is kinda important) he even hesitated before knocking. Also the kids literally attacked Aemond first.
This entire show is based on patriarchy and how that translates to women. If rhaenyra was a man we wouldn't have had a dance of dragons. 😂😂 alicents arc is that she was a pawn for men, first her father then larys etc etc etc. She was jealous that rhaenyra didn't care and acted as she wanted. But alicent grew up and as a grown woman she sees things differently. I don't find it that complicated tbh
Does she really see things differently? As a grown woman she still played along with her father’s whims. The patriarchy, her husband, begged her for YEARS to supports his choice in rhaenyra, wed their children together and push a matriarchy to the throne. She was an adult by this point btw. But she refused, because of jealously of her friends freedom? And what freedom is that? Rhaenyra has her own contentions with the patriarchy herself. If Alicent truly saw things clearly as an adult she wouldn’t be doing any of the crap she was on since forcing Rhaenyra to walk across kings landing after giving birth.
My question is why did she suddenly stop caring about the safety of her family in episode eight? She knows Rhaenyra can't let her sons live because they would pose a threat to her claim to The Iron Throne. If not now, then certainly in the future, when Jace is on the Throne, her line's claim wouldn't be so strong as it during her lifetime. Therefore, Rhaenyra would get rid of Alicent's sons to secure the Throne for herself and her line. Shouldn't Alicent be trying to prevent this possibility?
If Rhaenyra was a man and tried to leave the throne to her bastards then the dance of dragons would have still happened. You can't just skip legitimate heirs in favour of bastards and think nobody would have any problem with it. Aegon IV the Unworthy wanted to do the same things as Rhaenyra. He was known for it as the worst king in history. He also started a civil war because he tried to leave the throne to the bastards. And then we have Joffrey. Joffrey wasn't of Robert's blood, which means he had no claim to the throne similarly to Robert's bastards. The legitimate heir was only Stannis. Nobody cared that Robert had CHOSEN Joffrey before his death, civil war still was started because Robert left his crown to somebody without a claim. Generally every single time a king tries to leave the crown to somebody without a claim civil war starts. It's was never about Rhaenyra being a woman. Besides another reason for the dance was that Rhaenyra was a tyrant. She pressured Viserys to murder innocent people for stating the truth about her children parentage. She herself has been murdering people (she fed Vaemond to her dragon). Honestly in the books the main argument Alicent uses ro convince Aegon to take the throne he didn't want was " if you won't do it Rhaenyra will kill you, your brothers and our entire family". Considering that Rhaenyra never even tried to build any relationship with Aegon or his siblings and already has been murdering people I think it wasn't unreasonable for Aegon to agree with Alicent's argument. Afterall Rhaenyra was already murdering innocents, and she wanted to leave the throne to her bastards. What would be the safest way to be sure she gets her wish? Kill her siblings with whom she had no bond and the closest legitimate targs that could challenge her, children of her rival.
@s1b3r11 IF frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they leaped. Rhaenyra is not a man. And as far as putting bastards on the throne and Noone does anything about it, two words, joffrey bareatheon.. aka joffrey lannister. So it's happened but at the end of the day, it didn't matter who the other parent is, the only thing that mattered is that they were targaryens. Which they were, and dragon riders.
@@crimetimewithjess5366 they weren't Targaryens. Jon Snow wasn't a Stark he was a Snow. Rhaenyra's children were Waters - name used for bastards in Crownlands. She tried to parade them as Targs but they never were Targs. And the fact that they had dragons doesn't mean anything they had exactly same claim to the throne as Ulf the White, Hugh Hammer or Nettles. Which is NONE. Funny how you're trying to skip Aegon IV. The dude was male version of Rhaenyra and he also started a civil war by doing exactly the same thing she did. Which means it wasn't about her being a woman. Every single time a king tries to choose somebody with no claim as successor it ALWAYS causes war. Why should Rhaenyra be an exception.
It would've been more sympathetic if Alicent actually was the "evil" step mother who supported her effectively disinherited sons from the beginning (or at least after Green dress scene) if only because when there are conflicting claims, "you win or you die" and because of a genuine belief that following the line of sons and grandsons meant the most stability. She literally plotted for 20 years and then suddenly started caring about what Viserys wanted at the end. Worse yet, you still get the impression she cares more about Rhaenyra than any of the Greens so the turning point at the Green dress scene was hollow.
I think Alicent's character is consistent in how she is written. However as a person, she is conflicted and struggling to find her place in the world. Her inconsistent reactions towards Rhaeynera make sense in context of her being jealous, but also having a standard of being a dutiful and righteous queen. She wants to uphold the laws and customs, but hates them at the same time. So it makes sense that she jumps into the opportunity of crowning Aegon - that feeds into her envy of Rhaeynera. However it also makes sense she is shocked by a preexisting conspiracy found by Otto. She is left out and it's doing something behind the king's back, whereas she wants to do things dutifully and by the book. She cares about her children in a superficial way. Sure, she will protect them from physical harm and be worried about their well-being, but she is also distant and unable to form a proper emotional connection to them. My mother is a very simmilar person in many regards, so I had no problem finding any of Alicent's actions contradictory. They make sense, if you consider her conflicting motivations.
Great insight. I have similar thoughts. To me it seems pretty clear in season 1 that alicent wants autonomy. She may not outright say it but that’s how she reads to me. The social norms of Westeros nor her father care and deny her this freedom. This leads to her envy of rheanyra. Otto uses Alicent as a pawn in his political schemes. This cold and calculating dynamic continues with Alicent and her children. Continuing a cyclical pattern of abuse. She uses her righteousness as a coping machanism. I hope that wasn’t redundant. I thought it added to your point.
Frankly, I think her shock in 1x10 makes perfect sense, both because she realizes how little power she has in the council, and because of the love she still bears deep down for Rhaenyra. She is a deeply conflicted character partly because her black-and-white sense of "morality" clashes so hard with reality/her jealousy and fear. She has spent years both resenting Rhaenyra/fearing her claim, especially with someone as ruthless as Daemon behind her, and yet she doesn't send anyone after her when she leaves the sept in S2. This is because at the end of the day, Rhaenyra is still the only friend she has ever been allowed to have, a symbol of a simpler time. In 1x09, she finally gets a small rekindling of the only true intimacy her life has known, a small hope that maybe, maybe, all the fearmongering was for nothing. Certainly, she deludes herself with the upcoming miscommunication, and continues this naivety with a certain cognitive dissonance that this news will not lead to Rhaenyra's slaughter. Her years of repeating Otto's cycles are one thing in her mind, but when the blood starts flowing and the coup begins, the shock sets in; she isn't as ready to part with her dream of peace between them as she thought. Of course she is shocked-she has never been allowed to truly examine what she wants, and only the real-time escalation reveals that this feels much worse than all the time she spent imagining it. Otto doesn't tell her about the coup not because she is a woman, but because he is calculating enough to know of this repression in her. She certainly holds repressed ambition and fear for her children, but her long-dead love for Rhaenyra, for a fictional peace where everyone lives but the Greens somehow get their way, is another painful sacrifice on the list. Of course her bitterness and hypocrisy in season 2 are a natural progression-she has been forced to live the acceptance that the only way out at this point, for both her and her family, is through. All the regrets she may be developing about the years behind them are meaningless to the ugliness of civil war. Of course she changes. Of course she succumbs to a guilt-ridden intimacy with Cole after decades of one-sided, obligatory love with Viserys. Of course this only worsens her self-hating spiral. Of course she resents her sons even harder now, while only really living for them & Helaena at this point-they are all living lonnng before the onset of therapy, lol. I really think the only thing that could have fleshed her out more would perhaps be an earlier mention of Daeron's loss, but it also fits-she is a deeply repressed character and he hasn't been in her life since she sent him to ward, far away from the poison of the Red Keep.
Season 2 they wasted Alicent and Daemon's character arcs so badly. Alicent being a cold and jaded woman who got rejected by the men on councils and even doesn't know how to interract with her children anymore like she sees them as strangers. Daemon for spending too much time tripping in mushrooms on worst Air BnB ever in Harenhall. Bruh.
Book alicent is so much better it’s not close. Got was the same time period and it didn’t tell us about the patriarchy every episode like this show, it also didn’t make the men bad and the women pacifist.
Ikr? Sometimes, I feel like the show's main theme is the feminist statement, “If women were in charge, there would be no wars.” The women have no agency, especially Alicent. They need to constantly toe the line of what’s morally right while all of the men around them do nothing but criticize them for being women, ousting them from having a say in this war as much as they can. Alicent couldn’t even decide for herself to put her son on the throne, despite the show giving us multiple understandable explanations of why she’d want that. She just sat there with Pikachu-face while the men around her plotted. It’s so incredibly insulting.
The writers of this show are proving with each new passing episode that they have no respect or loyalty to the source material, let alone their own established character writing.
Now that we have leaks of the season finale, i can say without a doubt she's the worst chracter in the entire showverse: GOT included. It's absurd she still have so much screentime and this preminence activelly harms other, more important characters (her childrens) and the entire show as a whole. I honestly believe she have the same screentime of Aegon, Aemond and Haelaena combined for absolutely no reasons
My original answer to that question is Alicent wants for her children to survive. And after watching the entire video I think you're missing a key component to her character which explains her back and forth. Otto lays it flat out, if she wants her sons to live, either they take the throne or she throws herself and her children at Rhaenyra's mercy. Alicent's original plan was to do the latter. After all, they were dear friends once. Surely, her dear friend wouldn't murder her children to secure her power, right? Right? When Alicent asks Rhaenyra if she slept with Daemon, Rhaenyra *swears on her dead mother* that she did not sleep with Daemon, which was true. But she had slept with Cole. That's is what made Alicent turn against Rhaenyra. She has to trust Rhaenyra to be honorable and not harm her kids and at the moment Alicent felt like she couldn't trust Rhaenyra at all. And Rhaenyra producing bastard after bastard just further led her to believe her father was right. Rhaenyra would make a mess of everything, her rule would be questioned and she'd have to put down her brothers to secure her reign. And if there was any doubt in Alicent's mind that is what would happen, an incident where her son has been maimed ends up with Rhaenyra suggesting Aemond, her now one eyed brother, *be tortured* to find out who told him her kids are bastards. Alicent has every reason under the sun to believe her kids are on the chopping block, they are already losing pieces. At the dinner, they reconcile and Alicent decides to once again put faith in Rhaenyra to do the right thing. After all, Alicent wants to be a good person and obey the wishes of her father and husband. That's why she's conflicted, what if your husband's wishes puts the lives of your children in danger? Where should your loyalty lie? So when she thinks he named Aegon, she thought that all her years of being a dutiful and obedient wife were finally paying off and in the end he did right by her and their kids. But it didn't really matter, the Green Council was putting Aegon on that throne no matter what she said or thought about it.
This is pure gold so many good points here. People cling to the idea that Alicent's children being in danger if Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne as just a paranoid fantasy. But as you point out it's really not. Just to add to the list RIP Vaemond Velaryon, her father-in-laws brother who she allowed to be brutally murdered for telling the truth. It absolutely would not be out of character for her to have her half brothers killed off. Or, at the very least, let Daemon do it for her whilst maintaining plausible deniability.
@@michaelbuick6995 Yeah, anyone claiming everything would have been just fine if the Greens had simply handed over the reigns of power and vacated the Red Keep have paid no attention of Targaryen history or the real history it pulls from. Alicent's sons would end up in the Westeros version of The Tower if they were lucky, but more than likely they'd just all end up dead. The Blacks are impulsive and inexperienced. They would have made a mess and people would want the Greens back, so Rhaenyra would have to kill her brothers to secure her rule, and if she didn't have the stomach for it, she married someone who did for that exact reason. When Viserys refused to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon, the Dance was happening.
@@michaelbuick6995 чушь, она не имела никакой привязанности к Веймонду Велариону, он нападал на неё и её детей, с чего вдруг ей беспокоиться о его судьбе? И его убийство не было жестоким, ему снесли голову одним движением, он даже почувствовать ничего не успел. Честно говоря, я не верю, что вы говорите искренне, когда утверждаете, что Рейнира могла бы убить своих сибилингов. Очевидно, что она не могла. В книге Рейнира была более злой и жаждущей власти, но даже там она до последнего предлагала своим сибилингам сдаться, вернуть её трон, и она оставит их в живых. Вы на полном серьезе утверждаете, что Рейнира из сериала могла убить кого-то из своих сибилингов, если бы они не убили её ребёнка и узурпировали трон? Если да, то вы врёте себе
Her change of mind isn't necessarily bad writing. Alicent was a religious and traditional lady, faithful to the rules and order of her society. > There is what she wanted, and thought to be legitimate, that is, seeing Aegon become King because she believed Rhaenyra to be a "sinner", and her entire line (who would inherit the throne) to be bastards. Hence her need to see every newborn. She thought at one point Viserys would open his eyes to this, but he never did or chose not to. > But also, there was for her a duty to fulfill, that is, respecting (not accepting) her husband's decision. She might have genuinely made peace with it at the final dinner. Her words towards Rhaenyra seemed sincere. Then what she heard from Viserys death bed changed her mind again, and sent her back to her initial mind frame.
@@elmaestroco and then she us supprised otto was going to crown aegon, and we got supid meetimg with Rhaenyra, where alicent remined her of "i said you woud be good queen", and now she isnt even on council?
I suppose the writers thought that the theme of "women being victims of the patriarchal system" was too good to pass up, even at the expense of character development. In this second season, it became more evident that they are so eager to draw a parallel between Alicent and Rhaenyra being pushed out of power, despite the fact that they do possess real power (Alicent being able to manipulate Aegon, which was her most obvious option, and yet she doesn't do it; and Rhaenyra being the Queen, yet for some reason, she allows herself to be controlled by her council, something Daenerys would never have done). In summary, the writers wanted their two protagonists to be victims of male-dominated power, ruining what could have been the best characters in the series.
Alicent is quite honestly the most human character in this show (together with Baela), everyone else is either a caricature or an archetype. Her being flipfloppy with her thoughts and emotions, being highly conflicted, a hypocrite religious conservative, being righteous for the sake of being righteous, someone who has good intentions but because of her upbringing and for what she was told ever since she was a child to be the "right thing" which turned out to be just the same narratives that people have used to control others and also how it was used to control her. She never knew what was it like to be free like Rhaenyra and how inconsistent she was in the show compared to the book (who is its own separate canon) was very fascinating and refreshing to see in a series where no one ever has second thoughts about their convictions.
Watched the finale? Alicent betraying her family for Rhaenyra? The woman that wanted Aemond tortured right after he lost an eye, starved a city, and husband decapitated her grandson? Absolute fanfic.
Perhaps a matter of perspective, but the overall point of the video is imo what makes her one of the more realistic and 'normal' human beings. Though there are exceptions, most humans most of the time do not live every moment/day and make all decisions and judgements as if for a clear unified goal or purpose, are inconsistent, atleast subconsciously, whatever a person may believe about themselves subjectively. Fictional characters are more typically caricatured and consistent in ways a real person is not. Most ppl most the time ppl are caught in the flow of events and ppl around them, the rails they see themselves on, and subjectively interpreting events in ways that tend to fit within their personal narrative in tandem with their emotional processing, despite not having a congruent singular underlying logic in realtime on the subconscious level where decision making and behaviors originate. There tends to be patterns of decision making and behavior, yet much of the actual reason our minds do what they do dont actually align with what we may consciously think/believe nor are our decisions based on what we always think they are. We mostly post hoc rationalize things to fit our narrative regardless of why we do X, y, z. In Zen buddhism, asking simple questions such as "Who are you" or "What do YOU want" are unanswerable 'Koans' which one can spend years meditating on without a clear unbiased answer. There are drives, there are desires... but the deeper one introspects on such things, the more it appears to be like an onion, cutting away layer after layer to find the 'core' only to find nothing. Alicent seems more like a normal human being to me than most characters for these sorts of reasons, imo.
*Season1 Ep 6 Alicent:* "You are the challenge Aegon! Just by breathing! And existing! You are the challenge, you shall be king or your loved ones will all die!" *Season 2 Alicent:* "I... i just thought Viserys had a vision about Aegon before dying... Rhaenyra i love you, i made a mistake"
@@bornarose11 because first one isnt true. Treathimg Rhaenyra as guaranteed enemy is just asking for enemy. So we need more exuses for alicent . Which may even mean sometimg if otto wasnt leading green council, and then aemond.
@anjadjurovic9617 I think both are justified tbh, Otto is a manipulator. But Alicent being worried for her kid's safety is totally justified and in fact they are in danger, as long as Rhaenyra and Daemon get along, her male brothers are at risk of being killed for being a potential threat to her claim. No one wants to take that risk and just hope for her to have mercy, Rhaenyra already lied to Alicent many times (from Alicent's pov) even by swearing in the name of her difunt mother. How can Alicent trust her word that her family will remain unharmed now? And Otto took advantage of that fear to drive her
@@bornarose11 hate that argument, no offence. In past kings werent killing their brothers just for potential enemy. Rhaenyra position is different, but killing her half siblings ( even if trying to make it as accidents) would reflect badly on her. And alicent went beyond just potential enemy, she was literally telling teenage aegon he will be king is killed. Later episode will try to make her not really ambitious, bit that sound like preparim for usurpation with exise of "I had to, they woud kill us if i didn't?" Alicent just adopted otto logic, (for time, because show wont make her consistent) . We know half a realm didnt refuse Rhaenyra moment aegon was crowned. Instead that ensured war bezweet 2 teams.
@@bornarose11 also, lying doesnt equal to beimg murderer( especially of family) . Usrupation is opposite of not taking risk, its hitting other side fist with excuse, "they woud hit me, definitely" .fact stand that greens started dance.
@anjadjurovic9617 Past kings definitely *were* killing their siblings for possible enemy 😭 even in this world Cleopatra herself did. Listen, if you don't wanna see things from the Green's perspective, that's okay, but i think both teams are justified in their fears. Esp Alicent, Rhaenyra lies. She always lies and gets what she wants, and everyone in her family enables her. If Rhaenyra promises not to harm Aegon and her other brothers, how valuable is her word to be taken? Rhaenyra has Daemon on her side, which is terribly risky for team green. Would you really risk your children possibly getting killed because your childhood best friend promised she would not harm them? Even Jace knows that his mother lies a her word cannot be taken seriously, and that harms her reputation with allies
I don’t think they are making her inconsistent for the audience to sympathize with the greens. It’s done for the audience to sympathize with HER specifically, because like you said she is a woman and women=good, men=bad
And since team green is oposing women in power, and their" candidate" is horrible, show put alicent as victim. To win sympaty for her team. Nevermind logic.
Have you like not been watching the show properly? Alicent wanted peace! And Otto made her believe the only way that can happen is by making Aegon heir. But at the dinner scene, right before Viserys dies, Alicent realizes that what her father said may not be entirely true, so she calls Rhenerya Queen, but because of the misunderstanding and also because of the bug Otto had put in her head, she votes for Aegon but still cares for Rhenerya. So yes, she wants Aegon on the throne after Viserys's death and thus thinks it will bring peace. It's human nature buddy, it's a mixture of lot of emotions, that's what makes her such an exceptional character. Don't try to deduct it to objective arguments.
@@aditchandrachud9216 "only way to make peace is to make aegon kimg? Because aegon is such nice guy , and obivously Rhaenyra, daemon amd their supporters will just back off?" I know alicent is manipuladed, but if she ever trought for minute, she would realise her actions are against peace.
I absolutely agree with this video! This is the issue with the show. It’s a great show but the show is completely inconsistent when it comes to the characters. And the biggest victims of this inconsistency is Alicent and even Rhaenyra.
@@Senate300 well she did try grooming him his entire life and he never took an interest or took it seriously. So what can he do now but listen to the smart people around him?
@@khaleazy3550 Thing is those smart people around Aegon II wanted to rule through him rather than show him the ropes. And since Aegon had little interest in being king at first, why shouldn't they? Plus Alicent also drummed into her son that as soon as Rhaenera takes the throne, she would have him and his siblings killed.
She doesn’t know what she want and that is the point, or better, the two things she wanted aka the safety of her family and Rhaenyra living can’t coexist at the same time. Alicent was never allowed to think what she wanted, she had to do what her father said, seeing the kind and then becoming queen and making children, duty duty and duty. She resent Rh for doing what she wanted she wish she could do the same (and we see her sleeping with Cole this season which is ironic) while fearing her because Otto told her if she became queen, Rh would slay her children. She feels all this while deeply loving her. It is a war in her mind. That’s why when she felt betrayed by Rh in season 1 and listened to her father fears, she decided to antagonise her and her bastard children, because 1) it was the right thing to do aka duty and 2) fear of her. But her love for her is still strong. That’s again why when during the dinner is season 1 Rh apologised to her, Alicent accepts the apology avé tells her she will be a great queen because she loves her and because that apology muted her fear for a second, maybe she will not slay my children she might have thought and whatever the legitimacy of hers, that’s what her father wants. Right? But hell no because she goes into visible panic when Viserys on his death bed talks about Aegon as king and she misunderstands him. Now Aegon, her child needs to be on the throne because it is even the king that says so! But Rh must live! And so she is shocked when she finds out the council was plotting behind her back to kill her all this time. All season two is about her telling herself that war was inevitable because Viserys had changed his mind and Rh would have never accepted… that is why her world collapses when Rh confirms her in the temple that she misunderstood Viserys and Rh is still legitimate. It all becomes a mistake even more, sth impossible to repair because Lucerys and Aegon son are already being killed, and now it’s all a revenge of a revenge of a revenge. So what did Alicent want? Aegon on the throne and Rh alive. Peace between the families. What does she ‘want now? I suppose Rh on the throne even more, I mean she never never wanted Aegon on the throne (« you are not my son ») because of him being being an alcoholic rapist, she knew it was the wrong choice but she pushed I him to be better because it had to be!!! They had to survive right? Mostly she realised she made a mistake but it was inevitable. All of this would have happened anyway because Otto would have started it on its own after Viserys death. Because everyone wanted power and her she just wanted to live, love her friend and family. So now she is totally lost. She doesn’t know what she wants anymore.
Look, they want to have their cake (Alicent as an ambitious political player who wants the throne no matter who falls) and to eat it (make Alicent this poor little woobie that people need to sympathize with) The thing of it is, Alicent isn't meant to be this poor little meow meow who does no wrong and is morally in the right. Hell, the books even show how she out and out harasses and abuses 10 year old Rhaenyra in her own home when Viserys makes it clear that, son or no son, he is not changing the line of succession due to peer pressure again and Rhaenyra is going to remain his heir. The ENTIRE point of her character is that she is the Phyllis Schlafly of Westeros: she outright endorses misogyny and sexism and the patriarchy because she herself benefits from it through marrying and breeding a son with Viserys. She and her faction are the ONLY ones who make a stink about male primogeniture (see Jeyne Arryn, the REAL first Liege Lady in her own right even with living male relatives). GRRM didn't make a mistake when he had Otto nominate the still very much female Rhaenyra over the still very much male Daemon, it was DELIBERATE to show that the Hightowers WERE ALWAYS A BUNCH OF POWER-HUNGRY HYPOCRITES. Otto endorsed Rhaenyra because, at the time, she was barely 9 and so too young to have his number and be rightfully wary of him and his, whereas Daemon has known since the beginning that Otto and his ilk are backstabbing cockroaches and has been playing Cato in reminding Viserys that Otto can't be trusted. THAT was the dramatic irony: we KNOW that Daemon is right about Otto but no one believes him. The entire point is that if Viserys only shot X chromosome sperm and all 4 of Alicent's children were girls, Alicent and Otto would STILL try to find a way to make girl!Aegon Queen over her older sister. It was ALWAYS about them being opportunists. Instead, they try to make Alicent into this "sympathetic tradwife who had no choice" character... which, honestly, it's more like they showed the origin story of how someone becomes the embodiment of toxic femininity and decides becoming a Phyllis Schlafly sort of person who doubles down in order to justify the fact that she had a horrible marriage because female roles in a patriarchal society suck ass. And, well, she is still participating in her own oppression because she cares more about punishing the women who actually have the courage/means/willingness to pushback against this bullshit system. Again, that's why she winds up imprisoned when their side loses and no one has anymore use for her and yet let Tyland Lannister, one of the co-conspirators, go free. It's a classic "what do you mean, the leopards are now going to eat my face?!" moment. The show would've ironically had more success in inducing SOME sympathy (paired with a "what did you expect?" sort of sardonic tilt) if it had Alicent overtly be part of the attempted usurpation (including the slut-shaming campaign) only to then face epic levels of misogyny from her own camp when they deem her as expendable or even as a rival for their control over the puppet "king" Aegon. "Oh, well, you're a woman, you can't be expected to make actual decisions?" or "Power is not for woman, look at how Rhaenyra is going against the natural order!" and all that crap as she's sidelined. Even worse if her affair with Cole is then used to slut-shame her out of any actual position of real power, essentially using the same techniques she used against Rhaenyra to cull her and take power away from her (only, unlike Rhaenyra, she can't tell them all to go fuck themselves with their bullshit since then she'd out herself as a hypocrite). If they wanted to make a story about the patriarchy and how it fucks over everyone, including the women who ally themselves to it and become active participants in their own oppression, THAT would've been a much better track. Especially since that is what happens to the Alicent Hightowers of the world: they campaign against other women having anything resembling rights and when their party wins/gains traction, they quickly find themselves the victims of sexism and misogyny and their ideas are not respected. Her entire arc about her facing the consequences of fighting for the "leopards eating people's faces" party would at least induce some sympathy from the more soft-hearted without insulting anyone's intelligence. Heck, you might even have a moment similar to Cersei's Walk of Shame, where the well-adjusted audience is conflicted. On the one hand, finally, that bitch got her comeuppance! On the other hand.... this is essentially a ritualistic slut-shaming punishment that is punishing her for being a woman who had sex in her own terms. The reason WHY she's being punished is fucked up, when they could've been punishing her for the ACTUAL horrific shit she's done like Mycah's murder or torturing Alayaya or the psychological torture of Sansa. You could have something similar with Alicent: she's punished in a brutal way (so many people are cheering at this bitch FINALLY getting her comeuppance) but... the reason she's punished is for fucking Cole. And while we also want her to be punished for her hypocrisy, frankly, her fucking Cole isn't the issue. The problem is her cruelty, it's forcing Rhaenyra to do the Red Walk, it's her turning her children against Rhaenyra (who, BTW, never once entertained killing them because KINSLAYING IS A MAJOR TABOO! At most, she'd give them ornamental positions of power or send them to "diplomatic missions" with a very generous salary in Essos so they wouldn't get ideas. For fuck's sake, she even offered them positions of power even after the coup, but before Lucerys' murder, because kinslaying is taboo! And she was all for decapitating Otto and Alicent herself), etc... Basically, she's always been a hypocrite who tries to paint herself as a victim and or a hero. That's what makes her unlikeable, not only is she awful, but she insults our intelligence by acting like she should be the poor little victim.
are we just gonna ignore the part of show where Viserys is desperately trying to bring the family before his up coming death. Alicent only came around to supporting Rhaenyra because she saw how it was destroying what Viserys had built.
Even though Alicent is self-righteous doesn’t mean that she has no genuine respect for laws, norms and King’s wishes. I think the point of that scene was that Alicent somewhat intentionally misunderstood King’s words and it fits perfectly with her character. That makes her half-justified at best, meaning she’s also half-guilty. It is very obvious King’s words had nothing to do with succession choices, so there was not to genuinely misinterpret. And anybody would consider that monologue as just a frail old man mumbling before death. For the Queen to “misinterpret” Viserys’ words she would have to push it a little. It’s not completely disingenuous, but it’s also not a genuine mistake. It’s both. It fits her initial goals and motivations and her desire to be lawful. The dinner scene also makes sense. Again, she is quite lawful, albeit self-righteous. When she saw the possibility of reconciliation (which she wanted earlier in the season) and had guarantees that it wouldn’t affect her kids negatively, she went for it, because it was her duty. And she is at least somewhat dedicated to her duties (if not fully). Before the very end we see a battle between her sense of duty and lawfulness versus her old ambitions and frustrations. Could the duty ever win against the ambition? For a time maybe, but ultimately obviously it couldn’t, because the moment the Queen could half-artificially subvert the law with her “misunderstanding”, she grasped the opportunity. I think the story did it well. Now that it is revealed to her that she did indeed misunderstand the situation, she had to go defensive and justify not rectifying her mistake - if we’re being real no woman or man would singlehandedly stop the war at that point, no matter how law-abiding they are
In the books her character was consistent. She was cunning and wanted the throne. In the show at one side they can't shy away from her actively trying to turn her children against Rhaenyra and spreading rumors about her... Yet they still want to portray her as victim who only acted because she believed Viserys told her some prophecy.... It makes no sense. If she only acted because of prophecy why did she constantly told her children Rhaenyra's children are bastards? In season 1 after Aemond loses an eye Aegon is even forced to take a blame for Alicent because he is afraid that Rhaenyra and Viserys will kill his mother for going against Rhaenyra
10 mins in and its the stupidest reasoning video. Like an 18 year old whose whole concept of reasoning is limited to jealousy and sex. The reason why the scene where Alicent finds out Rhaenyra lied is so important is because she trusted Rhaenyra and vouched for her while she lied (swore even) for her benefit which made Alicent realise that her father (no matter how despicable) was RIGHT. Rhaenyra will lie to get what she needs, which means Alicent and her kids will never be safe as Rhaenyra has the potential to just lie about being ok with Aegon and Alicent until she gets the throne and murders them all to avoid any challenge to her throne. From that moment, she cant be passive and let things be. She has to take charge (especially now that her father is gone) and ensure that her family is safe and the only way to do that is to ensure Aegon becomes King. That is why the older Alicent is so hostile towards Rhaenyra. She only has time to do something until Rhaenyra takes the throne. After that its game over for them. Thats why we see her being desperate for things to go wrong for Rhaenyra. That exact moment was important because it showed Alicent Rhaenyra's true character and how she could not be trusted even when she swears it. Not because of some stupid sex or jealousy thing. Jesus Christ.
You said it yourself that Alicent relies on duty, sacrafice, and most of all honor in order to rectify her doings as she constantly lies to herself due to the interminable pressure she faces from figures like her father. The fact that she harshly rejected the thought of the small council plotting against Viserys is completely in line with her character. She is a juxtaposition which makes it admitedly hard to follow her desires, yes, but the crutial thing about her character is that she also shares a young and strong platonic love for rhaenyra. Everyone else around her has convinced her to hate Rhaenyra, although she hasn't fully convinced herself of that, no matter what lies she tries to conjure to convince the audience of that. With that being said, any action she DOES take against Rhaenyra must be bedded in those pillars of duty sacrafice and honor. That is why she so easily heard a miscommunication from Viserys in order to crown Aegon. Viserys talking about ASOIAF was her golden ticket. It meant that she could please her inner dialogue and her morals, while also pleasing 'the realm' as in the men around her pushing her to crown aegon, and it gives her an excuse to lie to herself about Rhaenyra, allowing her to still have some remorse for Rhaenyra truly, as she thinks her father just rejected her, while still trampling forward. I completely disagree with you on why Alicent's character is 'ruined'. Her and Aegon are easily my most favorite characters of this show and its very evident even in this video why: They're real. They're hard to understand because they're so complex. That is life within royalty. I think Alicent and Aegon are some of the most human characters in this show.
@@titusmorris7482 you may even have point for aegon (even if he is horrible) but alicent is not realistic. Her "love for Rhaenyra " is not really believable. After Rhaenyra lied about her sex life, alicent totaly believes otto that Rhaenyra is wiling to kill her half siblings. After timeskip, she wanted aegon as king, wanted her kids to hate Rhaenyra, took allies as criston and larys...but somehow thats not to hurt Rhaenyra. She opposes Rhaenyra, but when is crucial moment(ep 9), she caress so much, otto coments on it. That is, she just opposes murder of Rhaenyra. And that Stupid page scene also ruin Rhaenyra character. Both women now care for childhood frienship more than everything since then. Kingdom, rights, law, and their kids potentialy in danger (alicent's kids woudnt be if they didnt usrup, but whatever, otto convinced alicent they were already in danger).
@@titusmorris7482 Misunderstanding Viserys" and "greens were plotting anyway" feel like just exuses. Anything to clean alicent from blame for coup. Its not she deluded herself, but like she actually believed, (otherwise sept scene makes even less sense, she would just continue to lie to herself). And its not like her believing that changes anything, rest of greens were already doing what they agreed. Its sad that one of more important female characters is reduced to not really important to plot. She isnt villain because society and duty lead her to it, she is pawn who stayed in teenage mentality, with occasional mean moments to connect to her book character.
Being a victim and crying is literally her only character trait and why her lame fans praise her so much: Oohh, look at her she is so complex. She is crying here and here and here. Can't justice be served about the poor victim who ever victimed?
There are slight inconsistencies, like how Alicent feels about Aemond in particular being so wishy washy, defending him in one breath, sneering about him the next. But Alicent's arc feels natural me as a character who is a woman that doesn't deconstruct her own internalized misogyny. The men in her life manipulated her and are responsible for the misery in her life... up to a certain point. Eventually she became what she hated. She is repeating the cycle. Her anger at rhaenyra is really anger at the system for how it treated her. But instead of seeing it that way, she uses rhaenyra as a scapegoat for her anger. And constantly seeking the approval of every male figure in her life, well into her adulthood. Through her position of power, through sex, through motherhood. But she fails to realize she's trying to win the love and respect of men by playing the roles desired of her that were designed to keep her subjugated.
The show is so messy... I wasn't much of a fan of GoT but watching HotD I miss it so much. I started appreciating Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, Robb, etc. They all had agenda. Cersei was terrible, but she was amazing character comparing to Alicent and Rhaenyra. She knows want she wants and she does everything to succeed it. Besides, to me Lena Headey is exceptional actress. I'm not impressed by Daenerys's character. To me she wasn't so exciting. But she also had an ultimate goal.
I so, so disagree. My answer in the beginning was: Alicent wants power. And it is a very general statement, but I think it holds up. The diner when Allicent says Rhaenyra to take the throne. She may not want it down deep, but she loved her husband and she is the one who obeys. In that moment she thought, maybe I am not being fair and she changed her mind. That doesn't mean, that if the eye incident wouldn't happen she wouldn't regret it next week. She would stand by her word, but she could be suffering. When she was angry at the small council trying to put the king on the throne, it's not because she didn't want it. It's because she thought by playing by the rules of the game, at this point her opinions would be taken into account. These are her children and she wants to have agency over them. But it was being taken from her bit by bit. The end of Season 1 scene was a big reason for her to grab, because it was a good justification for what she wanted anyway. Her reason was making her a bit conflicted, but these words said "what you want at heart is the good choice", that's why she dedicated herself to it. But then with time her children got further and further away from her. Putting them on the throne wasn't selfless, she also wanted some of that power. So when she saw that although it's her children being the most important people in the kingdom, she is again, nobody, she shifted her focus from them to herself. And whens he told Aegon to lay back and do nothing. I don't think it was her saying "do what I did". I believe it was her saying "You were suppose to be my puppet who I would teach how to make the right (mine) decisions. Stop having your own opinions and let us (me) rule in your stead. Both Rhaenyra and Alicent grew less ruthless and more resiliant and calm with this Season. It's not like Alicent stopped hating Rhaenyra, but she has enough empathy to see how the situation looks from her side to not let her personal conflict influence the whole kingdom. They had moments of connection and having a common goal (not starting a dragon war), and they both project the good they remember on each other. So, is it the best written character in history? Obviously no. But I do think she stays consistent and her choices make sense.
George rr hates writing a full black and white characters he likes complicated characters but i agree i think if alicent was unapologetic about what she wanted it would make her more compelling
Thank you for clarofying that Alicent was just angry and jealous at Rhaenyra in the eye for an eye episode, because the amount of people that said that she was in the "right" like, you really think Viserys would purposely have his grandchild eye taken, is already bad that his son does not have an eye but that was an accident.
Lol, team black and team green ARE two sides of the same coin. They are arrogant, entitled royals willing to unleash hell upon the innocent smallfolk to secure their power. The smallfolk suffer when powerful men AND women play their game of thrones. Did you miss the entire point of GRRM's story??
I might be simple for saying this, But I see Alicent as allegory for conservative woman, and Rhaenyra as allegory for feminist liberal woman. One believe the way to achieve success is through compliance and abiding by the rules of society, the other achieves success through self purpose and bending the rules. Now occasionally these types of people waver in other directions, but their core ideas are still intact. Am I wrong for simply believing just that of the characters? or is there something more for me to understand about them? This is not meant for mean comments back. I haven't read the book. I am general curious what more Should I know about these two Characters?
Its possible for a character to have more than one motivation, and alicent clings to the idea of the moral good, so it makes perfect sense that she would internalize a misunderstanding to support the propoganda of whats right that otto drilled into her as a young girl, and even though only until episode 4 is out, you can already see the results of her no longer being allowed to operate on the misconception that she willed herself into believing since she spent the whole of the episode looking for evidence of the dream rhaenyra told her about. She is still wanting to convince herself that supporting aegons claim is what Vissy T wanted because it makes her feel better about her choices. Alicents goal at the moment, i think, is absolution, which is why she and criston had that small dialogue just before she took a bath (along with cristons character showing remorse) Alicent is torn not goalless
Schizo writing. This character is not the one we saw in S1. There are dozens of examples of infighting on that writers room. People are too hyped to realize yet, but they will in time
Without Otto interfering, my guess is that young Alicent would have ended up with Daemon - but Otto used her as a pawn within his own powerplay by setting her up with Viserys, and thereby effectively enacted the Targaryen civil war known as dance of the dragons! How different history could have happened: there cleary was mutual affection between Alicent and Daemon at the tournament in the show's pilot, when he asked for her blessing and to be her champion...
I think her reaction, to the council plotting to put Aegon on the throne, was a deflection of her inner motive so she didn't appear to them as if she was behind that idea all along.
They are scared to actually write good characters because having everyone be the bad guy doesn't fit their agenda. Alicent, Rhaenerya and Rhaenys would all be much better and more compelling Character's if their weaknesses and strength were both shown, but as each episode of season 2 goes by the ruin all of these character's by forcing the Blacks to be clean cut good guys all the time when they aren't and make the Greens clear cut bad guys when they have a very good reason to act the way they do. Because they have tried to make Alicent a Jealous spiteful hypocrite and Rhaenrya the paragon of morality (even when she demands to torture children and has her husband kill people in rooms full of people) they have both in my eye's become boring and fall into the trap of the strong female character but oh wait one of them is evil so she must be a pick me.
I never thought she believed Viserys changed his mind. He was so out of it that he didn't even call her the right name. She was just using his last words as an excuse, wanting them to mean he was talking about her Aegon.
I believe Alicent wasn't told about usurping the throne is because Otto believed that honor in her would prevail over her jealousy and hatred for Rheynera and wouldn't allow it to happen. She wanted Aegon to be the king but rightfully, not like this.
I hate when people respond to any criticism of Alicent's flip-flopping motivations as "you just don't get her, she's a complex character." Inconsistency isn't complexity. A character who doesn't have a clear, established goal is not compelling or complex.
Great video. 👏
This is by far the most common response I get when I criticize any character. “Inconsistency isn’t complexity” is a perfect way of putting it.
@@mediaroom4181 The shift between S1E6, S1E7 and the first half of S1E8 and then the second part of S1E8 ans S1E9 was very jarring.
S01E06, we do see that Alicent was plotting to usurp Rhaenyra ("everyone knows in their bones that you will be our next king, Aegon!") coupled with Alicent doing her best to undermine Rhaenyra's authority (the council scene where she intentionally points to Rhaenyra lactating to humiliate her) and especially her preoccupation with the paternity of Nyra's children. These are all actions of a woman who wants Rhaenyra gone and preferably d/ead, because in case this comes to light, exile is the best case scenario and mass execution is the worst.
S01E08, Vaemond petitions to be granted Driftmark. Otto talks about the "looming war" and then Vaemond assures Alicent that when he inherits it, Driftmark will be indebted to Alicent (thus he is willing to be her ally); they already know that there will be a succession crisis when Viserys dies.
If Vaemond is granted Driftmark ahead of "Laenor's" son (Laenor being Corlys' heir and Lucerys being Laenor's), that means Lucerys is illegitimate. Thus, Rhaenyra's entire claim for the Throne is compromised. Only Viserys' intervention prevents that from happening. And Alicent... just accepts that? For more than a decade at this point, undermining Rhaenyra and her sons was her sole goal, and when Vaemond kicks the bucket, she just shrugs and goes "them's the breaks, btw Rhaenyra you will make a fine queen :)"? If I were Alicent, I would be pissed. Is this not yet another proof to her belief that Rhaenyra gets away with everything? All her meticulous plotting ruined because Viserys once more favored Rhaenyra over his children with her?
And then... the only thing that steers her back into the now-reluctant course is Viserys' delirious mumbling? You know, "Viserys changed his mind on his deathbed" would've been a convenient excuse and not without precedent in real-world history, but it would be believable only if it was an excuse made up by Alicent, but... she fully believes it for some reason. After witnessing him borderline rising from the grave to defend his daughter's inheritance in front of the entire court shortly. So after all, it was yet another big misunderstanding in a story where big misunderstandings are already a pattern and too often short-hand from creating actual conflict?
Then S01E9 comes and Alicent assures the council that Viserys changed his mind. And this is is shrugged off because they were going to do it with or without Viserys' decisions. And then comes the "WAIT you have been planning this WITHOUT MEEEE?" What do you mean, without you? You were trying to get the Velaryon fleet on your side just the episode prior! For so long, you did not get a single ally in court sans Criston? You were leading that small council as Viserys' regent and the topic never came up?
"Oh, they were planning this behind Alicent's back because she was a woman!!!" is a weak excuse to all this. "Everyone knows in their bones that you will be king, Aegon" so she must have known that people would favor Aegon's inheritance, why did she not try to seek out these people and ally with them? Did she think it will just happen out of thin air because she wants it to be?
This is all done to make her hands clean in the end and shift the responsibility to the evil menz around her, because women are inherently incapable of political ambition and their womanly goal is to prevent war.
Sorry for the rant but I feel very strongly about this, especially since I have a point of comparison with book!Alicent. It's a mess.
I’m not going to pretend inconsistencies equate to complexity, but sometimes people flip flop for many different reasons. Also, I don’t think she didn’t know they were going to make her son the king, her issue seemed more with that they were planning things without her.
i think loving them as children is easy but loving them as adults is much harder
@@lindseystein9676Well it’s a good thing they did plan things without her, show Alicent is a traitor
You missed the part where Otto tells her she and her children will be put to the sword when Rhanerya accends the throne.
Then why does she suddenly stop contesting Rhaenyra's claim in episode eight? She doesn't care for the safety of her family anymore?
@@anotheryoutubeuser bad writing
@@anotheryoutubeuser She never fully agrees to what Otto is telling her, it's just another argument that adds to her already tense relationship with Rhaenyra. And in episode eight she stops contesting Rhaenyra's claim... when Viserys steps in and basically makes it his dying wish that they stop the infighting. What is she supposed to say to Rhaenyra?
"Hey, once your dad dies, I will take over the throne, alright?"
Based on what??? And if she geniuly trought that, she would not be schocked otto was planing on crowning aegon.
@@matijerzykom If you think about it, it doesn't really make sense in the context of the show. Rhaenyra has to eliminate any potential challengers to her and her line's claim to the Iron Throne once she succeeds Viserys. Alicent and everyone else knows that. Even if Rhaenyra's claim isn't contested during her reign, when she passes away, no one will recognise Jace's right to the Throne, not only because he is a bastard but also because there are trueborn heirs of Viserys from Alicent's line. That is why Alicent's decision to suddenly acquiesce to Rhaenyra's succession would mean that she doesn't care about the lives of her sons, which makes it bad characterisation on the writers part to have her make such a momentous decision so quickly and without any sign of conflict or remorse.
Actually the way Alicent tries to "discipline" Aegon mirrors exactly how she feels about Rhaenyra. She tells him that the way he should honor his duty as a king is to do nothing. She wants to pull him down to her level because she's jealous of other people's freedom. Also I was never convinced that Alicent sincerely misunderstood Viserys. I think she interpreted it in a way that justifies her anger, and she made herself shut down any of her own doubts.
Exactly, I don’t know why they decided to interpret it that way… the better plot would have been her willingly misunderstanding it cause that’s what I got from that moment only to come online and find out it was an honest mistake.
@@luvgod927 she grabbed his words and grasped on them because she wanted to.
Absolutely. That's what she wanted to hear him say and so she twisted it in her head to be what she heard. I do hope this is only a momentary regression and not a redesign of the character.
@@luvgod927idk who told you it was an honest mistake, the showrunners are very supportive of the audience have their own interpretations of what happened so whoever told you probably just thought that and decided they were right
Alicent had power and wanted to keep it that's the bottom line... she was queen for 20 years and didn't want rhaenyra to succeed over the queen over seven kingdoms which is why she usurped the throne
She wants her sacrifice being worth it
This
Yep, and by tradition her son should be king
Narrator: It wasn’t
She could have ran to Essos and become a Madame at a pleasure house like any unhappy noble woman in Westeros 😂😂😂
What sacrifice??? Woudnt it made more sense that she wanted revenge on otto, for using her as pawn?. And she knows what her sons are. Is she fine with aegon and aemond being free to rape and kill alll they want, and civil war being guaranteed, just so she feel better?
Alicent wanted righteous but lawful justice against Raneara. Her whole complex is founded in duty, honor, and religion. She wants revenge out of anger, but to justify it, the revenge needs to be in the form of justice following those principles. Plotting behind the King's back to usurp the throne against his wishes does not follow any of that belief. She needed the King to legitimately change his mind. That is why she was so quick to accept the miscommunication, and why she was disgusted by the small counsel. It is also why the revelation of this deceit and her own wrong interpretation sends her spiraling. Her character writing was remarkably consistent.
At least someone was paying attention
Thank you! good to see that media literacy is not all dead
Consistent in that she’s an absolute hypocrite that only stands by duty, honour and her religion when it suits her. She’s a perfect fit for Westeros, an illusion of honour, decency and chivalry hiding ambitious, vindictive corruption. What makes her so unpalatable and inconsistent is the insistence that she’s still at heart ‘a good person’ when she isn’t and hasn’t been for most of the series and the show’s still dragging its heels to let her accept it.
@3MB4R I do not think she is ever really meant to be viewed as a good guy. Understandable and sympathetic, sure, but good, absolutely not. The hypocrisy is the point of her character. She is the stereotypical religious zealot that will ignore their own morals when things get rough. That does not make her character inconsistent. In fact, it is the entire point of her character. She has all of these grand ideals, but when they are faced with even a slight crack, they all begin to crumble. Then all you are left with is a broken woman.
@@lilBabyJesus2112when I say her still being at heart ‘a good person’ I mean her view of herself (though her character definitely have some insane fans that believe that), it’s eroding in the second season but in the first season she really thought her actions were fine because she was in the right - which was why I found surrounding herself with the symbols of her religion in the latter half so funny and fitting, trying to rebrand herself after a murder attempt in front of witnesses. The problem is that it’s taking too long with this will she won’t she commit to a stance. When she was told not to get involved she wouldn’t stop, when she’s told to get involved and do something suddenly it’s all out of her hands. We’re watching her waste screen time going in slow circles at the detriment to the development of other characters. It’s ambling and dawdling when we’re down to 8 episodes from 10, the pace needs to pick up and instead they’re skipping storylines and removing characters to show us Alicent having yet another bath while looking maudlin.
They really should've went with paranoid Alicent. They have set it up so good. Alicent feeling lied to by Rhaenyra making her lose her trust on her, Otto planting that fear on her head that Rhaenyra's court would want her sons dead, and then Rhaenyra marrying Daemon who hates the Hightowers so much. Like those are valid reasons for her to fear Rhaenyra ascending the throne because of fear. Like she doesn't have to be power hungry but just the fear of what Rhaenyra or at least the people around her would do
Thank you! Season 1 Alicent loved her kids. Season 2 Alicent could care less about them. I thought the reason she wanted to crown Aegon was to protect her children? Its complete character assassination.
Her girl boss aura is contrived and not believable in wartime you cooperate with people you dislike or don’t respect….because that is the way you survive. And she is reading those ancient history books did she not learn dragons even with incompetent riders win wars to make a dragonrider feel useless in wartime is just STUPID.
They want to demonize her in every way. It like producers don't like the idea of loving Alicent in the Fandom.
Not really. If you actually observe young alicents scenes with her kids, she always looks disconnected or overwhelmed by them. And that is justified. Having had kids at 15 out or marital rape. Quite frankly you can see her suffering from some form of postpartum depression till episode 6. She always has her maids take her babies away from her. Worse than restricted, alicent was neglected. Viserys as a husband was barely functional, her dad was clearly barely a dad. All that neglect turned to bitterness.
That’s my assessment of alicent.
@@taytayqueen7024How does post-partum depression work?
I couldn't say it was post-partum but she was definitely disconnected as a mother. I can't remember scenes with her lovingly interacting with her children. Even in a scene with young Helaena she seemed more as an observer of the child not fully interacting. I'm not surprised about her dynamic with her adult children.
She lost her youth married to a man she did not love, who was decaying before her eyes. I think she's just full of regret, angry and bitter
I really think everything about alicent makes sense if you believe she believed making her son the king was between her and her father. In that plan she was her father’s equal. They were working together towards a lawful claim to the throne but they were beat at their own game when daemon took their ally. She thinks they didn’t succeed in their goal when she tells rhaenyra she’ll be a fine queen. But at the last second they have a lawful Hail Mary, viserys changed his mind. Alicents upset with her father when shes realized everyone was in on the plan because she was yet again one of the many pawns instead of being equal partners with her father as she thought.
Alicent not being in on the plan made no sense. She was lock in step with her father since she was 16. The only reason she didn’t know about it was so the producers could convince you to still like her. After usurping the throne.
Like she says in season 2 to Aegon. SHE WAS RULING during Viserys lasts days as queen regent. How could she not know the plan???? Explain it.
she on that big man ting tho...
@@TheKillaShowbecause they knew she would want to do things by the rules. A big part of Alicent’s character is her moral righteousness. She wants to believe she’s a good person and that she’s doing the right thing. Meaning that she would have never agreed (or at least not be fully on board) to usurp Raenyra’s rightful throne in the dead of the night like that. And Otto knew that.
What Viserys said is only an excuse for her to think she’s a good person. I mean before that she said to Raenyra she’d make a fine queen, because she thought she had lost.
I agree! People are complaining about her “inconsistency” but it stays true to who she is because she doesn’t know who she is.
Not like otto told her aegon shoud be king when aegon was 2, and "we play ugly game" at driftmark? If she accepted Rhaenyra will be queen, she would not so easily be convincing by barely conscious Viserys words.
Alicent’s jealously and self-righteous attitude makes her easy to manipulate, but she eventually relented to Rhaenyra being the rightful heir. However, she only did so because she could no longer justify her position. Her husband’s last words were nothing more than an excuse for her to fall back on her word. She didn’t misunderstand him because what he meant never mattered. She heard what she wanted to hear.
She isn’t reluctant to admit that she misunderstood his final words. She’s reluctant to admit-to herself-that she is a spiteful hypocrite. And instead of being remorseful, she becomes more stubborn and angry. She knows she is in the wrong. Only now, she can’t blame Rhaenyra.
The problem is that the show established that Alicent wanted to protect her children and made a lot of emphasize on it - Otto leaving her with fear, her protecting Aemond, her lecturing Aegon - now it doesn't matter. They changed it to " well, she's a hypocrite"
@@yasmina3999protecting her children was just another excuse though, and the only moments where she acted as if she was a slightly good mom was still for her own self-service and/or to use it against rhaenyra
@@calendul3ae it wasn't, it was a legitimate concern that was clear from the show. If you don't believe me then watch/ read what writers or actors wdre saying during the season 1.
@@calendul3aewrong
@@tata11kai22 , her sudden change reminded me of Jaime when he said " I never cared for innocent"
Like, wtf ?
I couldn’t agree more. We see Alicent go through too many inconsistent mind frames. One second she wants Aegon on the throne and sees it as an inevitability and the next (in the same season, mind you) she’s confused and surprised by Otto and the council making plans to crown Aegon. It makes no sense. I’m frustrated by the writing choices and it’s making it hard to invest in these characters when I feel like the show doesn’t even know who they are.
@india31793 I understand your point but your gonna have to show me where in season one did Alicent really showed love to her kids because in comparison; Rhaynera shows more love to her kids then Alicent did from what I’ve seen. Especially in the scene when they talk about Aemonds eye
The scene where she demanded vengeance for her son's injury?@@brieanawhite3579
I wish they had kept her like in the book, where she's more similar to Cersei + Margaery.
Well, this was never really confusing to me. She had the mindset that Aegon should be king, but usurping the crown from Rhaenyra like that under the guise of night, that just didn't sit well her "play by the rules" attitude.
@brieanawhite3579 She rushes at the Princess with a knife and puts herself in front of Aegon when Rhaenys threatened her family with a dragon at their coronation, too actions which would legitimately risk her getting killed horribly.
Her relationship with her children is abusive as a result of her own trauma and its clear she doesn't know how to love them in a healthy way but the idea she has no love for them isn't consistent with her core character
The problem with this show is that the characters' personalities, thoughts, and actions in Season 1 and Season 2 are inconsistent. It's like the writers forgot what they wrote and started over.
She’s a conflicted character with mixed motives who doesn’t entirely know what she wants. That’s actually pretty realistic, and compelling.
She wants to do her duty, but resents the sacrifices and is drawn to temptation. She wants to serve her father, her husband, her children, her friend, the realm but she usually has to pick a side and she also resents them all. She reviles Cole and Larys, but wants what they can give her. She sees herself as a long suffering person trying to do good, but also hates herself for her many failings.
Aside from picking up a lot of emotional baggage, the other big change has been her loss of her compassion and ability to comfort others. Young Alicent was masterful at comforting Viserys, Rhaenyra and even Cole when they are suffering. Older Alicent is cold and distant and fails to comfort anyone.
Right!
But original material gave us consistent alicent ." Improved" alicent is somehow not in any power, isnt consistent, and still gets attemtion.
Thank you! Alicent is... a real person! When we watch things we apply our own morals, knowledge, hindsight and god status as a viewer (we know things characters do not), we expect people to act just right, or what we deem to be right, in any given situation. This show has done an incredible job of portraying the convoluted mess that is the mindset of a real, traumatized teenager and how her set-backs manifested into conflicting adulthood choices. People fail to realize this is just how humans work.
@@bewwie9067 she is at least 36 after all timeskips. And sure, alicen doesnt need to have our morals and logics, but she shoud be somewhat consistent, and to shown when she changed mind, amd why. And most importantly, she knows otto have own motive of aegon on throne, she raised her kids to hate their nephews . She cant be shocked by what they are doing.
@@anjadjurovic9617 Childhood trauma has lasting effects into adulthood, it influences many behaviours and choices, an 80 year old can suffer with the insecurities their parents put on them through mistreatment, age doesn't really matter.
But that's what I'm saying, humans are not consistent, human behaviour isn't consistent, right, and moral at all points in one's life, the very concepts of what is right and wrong can change for an individual.
i think thats actually the point lol. She didnt rlly want any of this, it was all manipulation and fear that got out of proportion and now in ep4 she realized the ONE thing she stood for, was a lie.
She stood for Aegon being king WELL BEFORE her misunderstanding on the death bed.
Not really. She opposed Rhaenyra's claim long before she misunderstood Viserys's deathbed rambling. Her initial motivation was compelling because it made sense for her to be jealous of Rhaenyra and anxious about the safety of her family if Rhaenyra ascended the Throne. She knows her sons are a threat to Rhaenyra's claim to the Throne, so if Rhaenyra succeeded Viserys, she would have to get rid of Alicent's sons to secure the Throne for herself and her line. The fact they show in S01E08 that Alicent is fine with Rhaenyra succeeding Viserys is a symptom of bad character writing. And everything that happens afterwards with Alicent's character just makes her less and less compelling with each passing episode.
The show is ridiculous and ignores the main point of the book is that by the laws and traditions of Westeros, trueborn male children inherit first before daughters and Rhaenyra has violated those laws while Alicent didn't. Her kids are actually trueborn and male which means their claims are lawful and an eternal threat of Rhaenyra's rule. It has nothing to do with the show-only prophecy or even Viserys mumbling Aegon.
Hotd is addaptation from book (fire and blood), where alicent is clearly villain. Show wants her to be nicer, but keep more or less same plot. So she is pawn for her father, and geniuely believes her kids are in danger, And also she misunderstood Viserys, and greens werent even including her....just exuse after exuse. Otto would crown aegon even if alicent wasnt there. And so alicent just end up on greens team, but not "acctually" because she still cares for Rhaenyra.
@@anjadjurovic9617 The show's portrayal of Alicent after S01E07 has been one bad decision after another. It is difficult to find anything about her compelling when it seems like the writers flip flop so often when writing her character.
Alicent wants to be a good daughter and wife. She wants to be dutiful and do everything as she’s supposed to. As she grows and develops mentally she discovers that she isn’t doing right by herself, she’s doing right by what every one else wants and that furthers the divide.
She isn't doing everything right while holding others to what she believes they should do
@@christinaulrich4445 who is everyone? Trying to paint her as both still firend with Rhaenyra and knowing of otto plan, doesnt make her conflicted, but very stupid. Show cover period of mkre than 20 years. Is she still not decided?
Its bad writing. And some sort of misguided and misunderstood feminism. They simultaniously tried to portray and decontruct a patriarchal society, to both criticize and (over)correct it at the same time. It just isnt landing.
They are being plagued by the same issue that dragged down the last seasons of GoT, as in they cant seem to commit to the portrayal of the fan favourite (female) characters as anything but consistently moral and good, if maybe sometimes misunderstood, manipulated and placed in difficult situations, but always through no fault of their own, even if internaly it makes no sense.
For whatever reason the showrunners have convinced themselves that the only way to write good and compelling female characters is for them to actually write them as good people. And nothing can be further from the truth. Female characters can be actually well written and also be envious, conniving, evil, destructive. Just think of Cersei. We all loved to hate her. She was a well written, internally consistent selfish character. And she was unappologetic about who she was.
But this writing makes Alicent come of as delusional hypocrite, and it makes Adult Rhaenyra just plain boring. In her own story, she is static, she has no growth, she has been completely declawed as a character, and IRONICALLY she is now for sure relegated to a side character in relation to her father, her husband, her borthers and even her sons, and their internal conflicts and stories. She does not shine, she is eclipsed by men around her.
Woke writers = Bad writers
I agree. The scene where she tells Aegon he will be king and the later scene where she is shocked they had been plotting without her to crown him are in direct conflict with each other.
exactly
It almost like the men in her life undermined her and don’t respect her. Ofc they wouldn’t tell her. She showed to everyone when Jace took aemonds eye how emotional and impulsive she was.
@@Slowpiglet luke cut aemond eye, not jace. And while otto was acting shocked, he latter praised her and larsy offered to still cut Luke's eye. No way that she was not informed, or didmt know what men around her are.
Remember, that in S1, E7 at the family dinner table, She has finally accepted that Rhaenyra was going to be Queen, even telling her that she will make a good one. This happened right after Viserys supported his daughter yet again, in regard to her dark haired babies, so she (Alicent) was resigned to just accept it. So up until Viserys ‘changed’ his mind on his death bed, she had removed the notion of Aegon being king after him from her head. The mistake she made was thinking that just because she, as Queen had been resigned to accept that Rhaenyra would be queen, so would the council, hence her lack of knowledge (and surprise) about all the scheming.
@@nyagerguet5601 she just needed comlpiment from Rhaenyra. And really, she just believed Viserys clearly not conscious words change 20 years of him insisting Rhaenyra is his heir? Alicent know aegon is not king material. Alicent knows otto wanted aegon as king since he was baby, despite Viserys clearly not changing his mind. It woud make most sense if she was just politely lying at dinner. But no, alicent is good person, its just everyone else fault!! She never even trought otto might still want same!
I don’t see it as it having to be one or the other - I think both things are true at once. She is jealous of the freedom and struggled between her friendship and her father’s teachings that She and her kids would be in danger if Aegon didn’t become king. She knew the plan was to put him on the throne ultimately, but I think she was surprised that the plan was already so far along without her involvement. As you mentioned, because of her need to feel like she is morally superior she might not even be fully aware of her jealousy and pettiness towards Rhaenyra , so when the misunderstanding happened at his deathbed, she convinced herself that THIS is the true reason, so she can hold on to her false sense of self, and conveniently gloss over her active part in putting aegon on the throne from way before Viserys’ death.
I agree! I think what’s bigger than Alicent’s anger and jealousy is her paranoia and fear. She’s correct in her fear that her children could be murdered by either Rhaenyra or more likely, her supporters. We’ve seen it in history where extended family gets killed during a succession crisis. I think she’s incredibly desperate. It might look like she has power but I don’t think she realizes how irrelevant her opinion is. Larys uses her and she knows it to an extent, but she’s so desperate that she NEEDS his intel and will get used to gain it. The council doesn’t care about her. Aemond doesn’t care about her. Criston undermined her by plotting with Aemond. Otto obviously doesn’t care about her feelings. Viserys didn’t care when Aemond lost his eye, nor did Rhaenyra. I see her as a “cafeteria Christian” where she’s concerned about the gods punishing her but she’s not very holy herself. She uses the faith of the seven to present an image, but unfortunate for her nobody cares about her or her opinions. She’ll take any Avenue to cling to power so that her family can survive. People want to see Alicent as Cersei and I think that’s why she’s so hated.
Making it about “tHe pRopheCy” was when Condal lost the whole plot. Alicent is ruthless and hypocritical in someways but she’s complex and sympathetic as well. People completely forget that “Rhaenyra is the rightful heir” is not a given. Her claim is “because father said so damn Andal law and tradition and the complexity of codifying changes to long standing tradition”. It’s tragic and sad that she works so hard to uphold a system that imprisons her and women like her, but perhaps more tragic still that Rhaenyra is not fit to be ruler whatsoever as she’s entitled, unprepared, and allies with influences like Daemon. Alicent is pushing for Aegon II partly due to an anger and jealousy she never resolved but also pushing for what is arguably the sounder future as the realm will tear itself apart with a ruler like Rhaenyra with a king consort like Daemon, a bastard as heir, and a bastard usurping Driftmark.
On top of that come hell or high water, a mother will protect her children. Alicent loves and is willing to kill and throw her life on the line for them, prophecy be damned. It should’ve always been about Alicent putting Aegon II on the throne because she believed (validly so) her family’s lives were at stake because Aegon II is the challenge to Rhaenyra’s claim.
It should’ve always been about Alicent doing what she believed will save her family and what is better for the realm as a whole out of duty (however tragic and self sabotaging it is). That scene when Alicent goes to attack, they call each other out. Rhaenyra is right pointing out Alicent is bitter and angry and her righteousness acts as a cloak for that. But Alicent is right as well. Rhaenyra, for all the power and responsibility she has as heir, flouts it to do as she pleases. It’s quite interesting. Uphold everything unquestioningly and you build a prison. Flout every duty and responsibility and you end up undeserving and incapable of wielding the things and power you are given.
S1 Alicent: I love my kids and will crown my son because I cannot trust Rhaenyra will let them live, especially not with her monster of a husband Daemon, and I am committed to doing so, as peace was never a option after my son was maimed and Rhaenyra wanted him tortured.
S2: Screw my kids, it’s all their fault for everything, I love Rhaenyra so much, Viserys was totally great and Rhaenyra should have been queen, why did I make such a mistake, I’m not gonna backdown now but I’ll still let Rhaenyra visit me in secret.
It’s so baffling, you could have her be a bit unsure after Storms End, but Blood and Cheese should have been the moment her dial set permanently to war mode.The fact during the conversation with Rhaenyra she never once brings up that and the specific fact it was Daemon who organised it and Rhaenyra will not punish him, nor will she be able to stop him from doing anything is so infuriating.It could have been a epic moment of Alicent letting Rhaenyra know just how stupid she was for coming to ask for her crown back as if her grandson wasn’t just murdered at her husband’s hands and everything would be fine, and how much of a deluded fool she was for marrying and allying with Daemon, because she always knew how much of a monster he was but didn’t care so long as it benefited her, like Vaemond’s murder which she never had a problem with.That as long as Daemon lives, there will be no peace, asking if she will let Aegon have justice for his son with Daemons life, which is a rhetorical question because Rhaenyra for all her protests of disgust and horror at the act cared more about how it hurt her politics rather then the abhorrent nature of the crime, and always chose to look past what Daemon is.Then leaving, saying the hightower flames will be burning around Dragonstone before she knows.
1. And yet show pulled, "You will be good queen", and "misundrstoood Viserys ' and her being shocked otto and rest of greens were going to crown aegon. Almost as making exuses, because greens are in wrong.
2. Hotd made worse bulshit with Rhaenyra. Alicent sent apology for dead son, and Rhaenyra risk her life to talk to Alicent. Greens have 1.stolen Rhaenyra crown 2.killed her son, 3.imprisoned and killed nobles loyal to her 4. Sent aryk to kill her. Compared to that, as cruel as killing child was, team green have done more against team Black .
3.alicent is not in position to trheraten anyone. Her own father and son doesnt respect her.
4. Hate daemon all you want, he remainst best. (And Why didn't green respond with justice when aemond killed lucerys, but apparently Rhaenyra is evil for not executing Daemon )
I agree 100%. I was literally shocked how suddenly different Alicent was since the very beginning of season season 2. And it had zero sense. They ruined her character imo.
@@Skrzacik not really, 1. Season was going for poor victim alicent, she never wanted anything, it was all otto manipulation. It woudnt work with this idea of alicent threatening with "hightowers flames".
And this silly comment wont aply own logic to green, why dont green punish aenomd for killing Rhaenyra's son (and dont try, it was accident) to show justice?. Why wont Rhaenyra bring up anything greens have done to her? Why dont Rhaenyra point alicent was stupid for trusting otto and her sons, when she knows what they are?
I agree with this. I'm like wtf, where was the Alicent after the time jump. She just changed so much. Also, not related, I actually 'got' Aemond and his decisiveness. Sure, he's not kind, but I think he's truly fighting for the lives of the Greens (his family in exception of Aegon since obviously ..y'know lol). Letting his mum acting all 'temperate' (flip-floppy) is not good for their lives.
@@anjadjurovic9617 For me, both Daemon and Aemond are being decisive in their actions. They're not kind, and heck, I'd say they're cruel and so on, but they're both advocating for their families...
There is a part in the script that, I believe, indicates that Alicent had a crush on Cole the entire time.
So she has more motivation there, but I think the reason why this works for me is because Alicent has the motivation of a coward, that is not an uncommon trait for a person to have, because most cowards don't know what they want...they usually just know how to avoid being the bad person.
Alicent is a coward, and I think this story is giving a coward grace for showing why being a coward worked for most of her life, and was a habit in her later life.
Cole is an irrelevant man from a minor house and is happy to sleep around.
Well no? what a terrible decision that would be. Parts of the script that alluded to this earlier idea for the character were left unfilmed and the character direction in s1 was massively improved bc of it. thanks to alexis and miguel most likely.
@@rhaenatargaryen8061 I was unaware of that part, I thought they still kept the motivation(having interests in cole) somewhat there because it would just add to the situation that Alicent did not have a choice in the matter while Rhynera did, and that her being so upset about Rhynera having freedom results not only in her lying to Alicent, but also having had the privilege to dispose of a man like nothing, who she valued.
Like, it also ties a little bit into Alicent actually preventing Cole's decision to end his life.
I feel like what you said actually applies perfectly because I can see how the resulting plot has still some of the initial footprint of that hypothetical infatuation on it.
Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous it was that Alicent would have absolutely no idea what any of the plans were for placing Aegon on the throne after Viserys died. It was stupid writing and completely negates everything they had shown us of the adult Alicent who was fully in control up to that point.
I don't understand why they keep contridicting her words and actions. She told Aegon that one day he would be their king. Then 3 episodes later she is unaware that the council has been plotting which makes no sense and strips her of agency. The scenes she has with Criston have no plot value and cheapens everything she was saying about Rhaenyra.
@@Thrawn23. Yeah they are doing her character such a disservice.
@@Thrawn23. the show won’t commit to her character, they make her a hypocrite then keep wanting to paint her as a victim of circumstance and then try and sell her as a voice of reason when these things just don’t mix. The show, much like GoT, has this problem with backhanded misogyny where they need to make the female characters never do anything bad that doesn’t come with a caveat that some exterior force made them do it - usually a man. All the women want peace, all the men want war even though there were overt times when it was the other way around in F&B. It’s bizarre.
@@Thrawn23. it is not that hard to understand. Alicent had the mindset that Aegon should be king, but usurping the crown from Rhaenyra like that under the guise of night, that just didn't sit well her "play by the rules" attitude.
The councilors specifically said that they intentionally left her out of the plans, what are you talking about?
Well, Alicent wishing to put out Luke's eye after no one gave a damn about her son being hurt is kinda understandable. It's an explosion of anger, and a strong one, and even though I think Alicent has no right to hurt Luke, I can't help but feel sympathy for her rage. She was the only one who said that the whole room's attitude towards Aemond was bullshit.
Harmimg luke woudnt return Aemond eye. And whole "Rhaenyra gets to do what she pleases" speech isnt least bit sympatetic. Blame otto for wanting her to marry Viserys.
How about Viserys being a weak ruler and poor father?
Maybe he should have disciplined his daughter then she might not have chosen such a poor husband who would facilitate the future problems of succession. Easy to see why Otto did what he did because Viserys cared more about his daughter’s ego than the stability of the realm. Viserys really thought he could put a woman on the throne to ease his guilt and every other person affected would just stand there and do nothing because he said so.
He was a weak, emotional, ego-centric, fool of a king who never made the hard choices for the good of the realm and his family. The title of the show should be “weak kings bring hard times” bc that’s the actual meta-commentary.
House Targaryen was destroyed by weakness masquerading as compassion - by jealousy disguised as honor - by evil disguised as justice and by decadence disguised as freedom.
The Targaryens are decadent because they control the dragons, and now that there is more than one faction (because Viserys was a poor leader) they will destroy themselves.
All he had to do was 1) hurt his daughter’s feelings or 2) not remarry outside the family. He chose feelings over sense in both cases and now the realm will burn because of his sentimentality.
@@Zero_2500 Viserys is dumb for remarrying and marryimg Rhaenyra to laenor. Rest? Hightowers fault.
@@anjadjurovic9617 "Harming Luke wouldn't return Aemond's eye" - who could've imagined that, really 🙄 But surprise, people want revenge and follow the "eye for an eye" logic since time immemorial, Alicent feels the same at this moment because she is, well, human. It doesn't make her wish to hurt Luke right (I've already admitted that in my comment), but it is understandable. No more, no less.
@@readeroftheelderscrolls then is blood and cheese understamnke? And as for alicent going for lukeceye, and stabbbing Rhaenyra, and no proof alicent was ever punished for that, thats shows alicent isnt some poor victim punished for everything, amd that Rhaenyra can do whatever because privilege. So alicent envy? Annoying.
I think it is pretty clear that Alicent doesn’t want the life of the queen, she wants to be free as Rhaenyra fights to be. But she can’t, she was under the influence of her father and later by the burden of being queen, as you explained in the video, she really didn’t want anything. This is all true until she goes dressed in green to Rhaenyra’s wedding party. That is the moment where Alicent decides she want to feel freedom, the way she does it is to make herself believe that it was and is her choice to be the queen, that it is her choice to squeeze out heirs, and that it is her choice to do politics. So she begins to act differently no because she is different but because she wants that feeling of freedom and the only way she can is faking it. When she heard the kings last words she heard what she wanted to hear, blinded by her father influence and her false sense of choice. To answer the final question of the video, What does Alicent want? She wants to control her life, she wants to make her own decisions because she wants to feel free but because she can’t given the situation she’s in, she is forced to make her self believe that what others want is what she wants and that what she is needed to do is what she wants to do. In short, Alicent wants to be free but to feel free she needs to do what others want.
@@feliperincon3348 but she said to otto, she wont be his oawn anymore. And then she still is. She wants to be friend eurh Rhaenyra and peace, ut is on coup she knows divide realm.
@@feliperincon3348 also, alicent breakimg point is Rhaenyra lying to her? Since then she opposes Rhaenyra and wants aegon as king...exept not realy, its all about misunderstanding and alicent doesnt want conflict? Why she expect loyalty of Criston and larrys, when she knows of their crimes?
@@anjadjurovic9617 people say stuff and act in way that differ from their words. Alicent says she wont be her father's own but in the end even if she tries to convince her self and her father that she is capable of no caring she still cares and will act in a way to please her father. She wants freedom but she can't, she wants to stop pleasing others but she can't. Young Alicent arc stablishes that she couldn't care less about being a queen, about pushing baby's out of her womb then she embraces the idea of being a powerful woman and tries to make her own way of freedom. She says she doesn't want to do political stuff but yet she needs to do political stuff because she doesn't have an option. She hates his father in a way because it was him who put her in that situation in the first place but at the same time she understands her father's intentions, She doesn't want to do what he wants because she just doesn't want to but at the same time she wants to do it because its her father's wish.
@@feliperincon3348 so her arc is...she never grow up and wont cut ties with side of family she knows is danger to her. And this from plotline where she was geniuely involved in coup and hated her stepdauther...
@@anjadjurovic9617 no, her plotline is her wanting control and realizing she will not have any.
They should have stuck with the source material with Alicent character. She was the main one sowing seeds of dissension since Rhaenyra was still “the realms delight” she never supported Vicerys making her his heir. I know modern media like to spin this “sisterhood” troupe but some wmn play just as dirty as some males in the big bad patriarchy. There isn’t always fellowship amongst men especially when jealousy, even and competition comes into play. Had the show runners stayed true to her character then Alicent pov wouldn’t seem so disjointed to the audience
One thing to correct, patriarchy doesn't exist.
Feminism has hurt women in this decade (even before), it condemns and treats us like we were little girls. In everything else, I agree
Thats because book alicent is a villainous cardboard cutout inspired by roman historical catalogs seeking to blame women (alicent and rhaenyra both) for a catastrophe as a result of their wrath and gluttony
Hate what they've done to Alicent in the s2. I want the one with a knife in her hand protecting her child. The one who stood in front of the dragon. The one who would weep to see her firstborn burnt because of her, the one burning with rage for her children and grandchildren. Because at the end of the day she loves them to her bones
@@vitalinaleks1101 so much she raised them to be enemies of Rhaenyra and her kids, and wanted aegon as king, which woud definitely put them in danger.
@@anjadjurovic9617 being Rhaenyra's siblings put them in danger because of Visarys. They are a threat to Rhaenyra and her kids just by living. Book Rhaenyra and Daemon would definitely killed the boys, because they have a claim, the war was inevitable.
Also I don't see Rhaenyra even trying to be close to her siblings ever. Nor in the book or not in the show. She decided not to like them from the start because she knew this
@@vitalinaleks1101 not really, she offered them pardons at start of dance, if they accept her as queen. But when lucerys is killed, obivously she wont try to be nice . Seriously, she and daemon had oportunites to discretly kill greens during Viserys life. But no one even sugest they tried. Not liking them is no equal to murdering them. Greens usruped and used exuse of "we had to, she would kill us first"
You want her to keep fighting for her sons? The ones who don't respect her at all? Aemond simply set her aside after all she has done for them. Alicent is devoted and obedient but not stupid.
@@danielaorellana8216 and im pretty sure aegon and aemond werent angels last season. But alicent was fine with them taking Rhaenyra's throne.
All they want to do is use Alicent as a method to diminish Aegon at every turn….she tells him what is needed is for him to continue doing what he has been doing……NOTHING…..which sounds like a good burn until you realize is Vhagar’s ancient ass and Aemond the only ones patrolling the city IOT counter any dragon attacks….ABSOLUTLEY NOT Aegon is the only other mentally fit dragonrider in the city. Alicent has become unbearable she was a great ruler in peace time congratulations than you crowned Aegon and started the war…and because of that you are now the authority on ruling.
She wants him to do as he's told like she had to
@@ggkinz8506No, she wants to be free, just like Rhaenyra
Alicent is not fueled by jealous. She does everything out of the fear of her kids being murder because that's what her father made her believe. She pushs that belief on to her kids and it mess them up. Now she has to live with her consequences each and everyday.
She is also fuelled by jealousy. You can believe two things at once.
@@cassiusfelix2805 and she believes that...because of otto. He is one rensponsible for her marriage and kids, but Rhaenyra lied about her sex life, obivously Rhaenyra is problem here, best to trust otto!
And at end of season, she doesnt really care for her sons. Given how horrible they are, not sad, but it is horrible that she raised them to fear Rhaenyra and then she is wiling to sacrifice them. And obivously greens were in biggest danger once they usruped Rhaenyra. Aegon didn't even want crown.
it might have started at jealousy but to reduce it to that is reductive, at some point it became resentment that she and her family were the ones being punished for Rhaenyras transgressions and Driftmark is the perfect example of this but we see it even in Otto being fired and Alicent being further isolated all because he told the truth, it wasn’t even the kings decision to fire him he just conceded to Rhaenyras wishes.
Otto got fired BECAUSE he was stalking and spying on a royal and trying to do that to isolate and manipulate the King. It's essentially the same fucking technique he used against Daemon, only this time Viserys FINALLY put two and two together when the asshole tried to isolate and pit him against his daughter instead of his brother (which, frankly, says a lot about how Daemon is rightfully angry at Otto and Viserys about this crap but not Rhaenyra, who sure as fuck didn't force Otto to be a manipulative piece of shit).
So, no, Alicent being angry at Otto FINALLY facing consequences for his shit-stirring isn't a good excuse, especially when she herself takes up slut-shaming as a weapon.
@irondragonmaiden Otto did the right thing. Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat doing reckless shit that would ruin her House's reputation. Someone had to alert the king.
And Otto was right. Rhaenyra committed high treason by having three basterds and lying about their being true born heirs.
@@irondragonmaidenOtto got fired because Rhaenyra asked Viserys to fire him not because he suddenly realised some “master plan”. he only got mad when he realised Alicent never actually wanted him and he felt stupid.
royal advisors having connections to keep informed about the happenings in the kingdom is common and not a crime. Rhaenyra and Daemon were being reckless and instead of just punishing Rhaenyra for being reckless he punished Alicent by firing her father and only support system. the only people in this scenario who needs “face consequences” is Daemon and to a lesser extent Rhaenyra
@@embel1213if I'm on my phone at work all day and my coworker tells my boss and I get fire, is it my coworker's fault that I was fired or my own? My own because I was on my phone instead of doing my job. Otto wasn't doing his job as hand and instead was too preoccupied by furthering the agenda of his house (even as far back as episode 1 with the Crab Feeder). Rhaenyra pointing this out to Viserys isn't her getting Otto fired, it's Otto getting himself fired.
@@misssoso5859 remember otto in ep 3. Already wantimg aegon as king. That's why he sent his daughter to Viserys. Disretditing Rhaenyra just so happens to help his plan to push fir his grandson as king?
2. Laenor and corlys were fine with Velaryons boys.
She wants her friend to be as righteous as she is, because she can't take it otherwise, she longs for Rae's freedom deep down, but can't accept it. This eats her from the inside out and makes the claws and ruthlessness come out.
And then she still want peace.
I had a mother like this. Jealous of me and my bids for freedom, which she never had, so she tried to undermine me in every way possible. It's true, there is nothing like the fury of a woman's scorn. They will express hatred in ways that men never even think of, and in insidious ways, so hopefully the rest of the world won't notice, and still think they are a good person. Yes, they are the very definition of hypocrites. If they get any power at all, they are dangerous. At least my mother wasn't in a position to start a civil war. Allicent was, and didn't care about the chaos and destruction it brought. All she cared about was herself and her revenge. A great example of what jealousy and hatred can lead to.
Saying that Alicent caused her grandson's death is completely asinine. The only one responsible is Daemon.
If Daemon hasn't ordered to kill Aemond, that wouldn't have happened
@@RaEy22 All Daemon needed to say was "Yeah, if you can't find Aemond just abort the mission. Don't go around looking for any other kills.
Of course it’s Daemon’s fault, but Alicent feels guilty and tells her dad she feels dirty because ~allegedly~ Cristen was supposed to be guarding the twins that night
@@misssoso5859 one rensponsible was aemond who killed lucerys, which lead to revenge. I saw alicent there as self centered, thinking its about HER sins, instead of obivous reason.
I agree that Alicent had jealousy but I refuse to accept that it was her only motivation. Her main goal was to protect her children. But still, I agree that after episode 8 this motivation goes away too.
The way they are butchering Alicent, her previously established motivation to protect her children and her relationship with them, reminds me about the times when GoT destroyed Jaime when he said he never cared for innocent.
All of the most important and core events that were emphasized by the show regarding her character from episodes 1 to 7 formed into one logical and consistent line: she was driven into a corner and she has no choice but to fight for the children.
•Otto leaving Alicent with fear that Rhaenyra will kill her children
•Alicent declaring war
•Alicent protecting Aemond
ALL those things built the basis of her character.
All of them had in-universe reasons and were understandable:what mother wouldn't fear for her children?
From each big moment Alicent's fear was becoming stronger and there was no indication that she was ready for peace. She had beef with Rhaenyra for 10 years because Otto got fired. She didn't talk to her at all for 6 years after Aemond lost his eye. She didn't care much when Rhaenyra walked with Joffrey after the labour, she didn't want to marry Helaena to a bastard. It seemed cryel but it made sense and made her character flawed but consistent and logical.
But then, after Rhaenyra and Daemon on purpose made Laenor's death suspicious, then they killed Vaemond in the throne room - and Alicent suddenly believes in Rhaenyra? She suddenly, without any reason, loses her fear for the children and changes her motivation to Viserys's wish, really?
And doesn't really care when Jaehaerys gets killed? Just lets Rhaenyra escape, KNOWING very well that war is inevitable?
After this moment, not only her entire development collapses, but also the very foundation of the character, leaving behind nothing but an empty shell after.
She never seemed to even cared about her kids..even her concern for Helena was motivated by making sure Helena wasn't going to tell..and Helena knows it..100% she's going to be OK with letting her son die, to put her other son in his place.
Two things can be true at once, I do believe in season 2 Alicent still love her kids but she doesn’t know how to show that love bc of the neglect she suffered from her own father. For example last season she slapped Aegon when he was a child screaming and grabbing his face, Alicent was always an abusive mother despite the love she had for her kids.
Team Green just shows generational trauma and abuse.
Spot on.
Its such a shame, the writing is all over the place. Missed opportunities. Its too late now.
I don't agree that she had no goal. Her goal was to serve her house and the realm and in general be a good person that honors their duties and then get a generic happily-ever-after. Not everyone's goal has to be something big and specific like "become the queen of seven kingdoms" or ""make your son the king of seven kingdoms".
Also disagree that she was not interesting in the first five episodes. I think she and Rhaenyra are the most interesting and nuanced characters in the show, and I think her character was more interesting early on. She had this worldview that she has a set of duties to serve and as long as she serves those duties she will be rewarded. In the first five episodes we see the beginning of the subconscious unraveling of this worldview as she marries Viserys and is miserable because she is married to an old man, alienated from her best friend, trapped in the palace, and does not know when her happiness will ever arrive. And we see her take some of this frustration on rhaenyra when she sees that her peer does not seem to respect duties nearly as much as she does and does not suffer the consequences. I find that the first five episodes she was more interesting because she is more relatable here, compared with after the time jump when she was already completely jaded and in full cognitive dissonance
I think Alicent in season 2 has just succumbed to her fate. She knew it a lie to bring Aegon to rule but now there is solid proof that Viserys wasn't speaking of their son. It's shattering what little delusions she has left to keep herself from crumbling under her shame.
now that the season is over this video cannot be more true
I love in the knife scene how even Otto is like woah woah chillllllll
And then later he praise her while she regrets it.
As a woman, I agree that we need not infantilize women or prevent them from being villains. But I’m okay with Alicent’s character being genuinely conflicted as a human being.
@@KittySnicker that conlfict really just feel like exusing her for everything. And ultimately it doesnt matter, because greens arent listening to her.
Alicents Arc this season is about her guilt that she was wrong about everything. That her motivations that she justified as righteous only furthered the misery of the realm. She has to live with her guilt but also her victim hood as a woman who had very little choices to do things differently and the choices she did have she made the wrong ones. This is pretty explicit cause Helena says "I forgive" she forgives Alicent for being one of the cogs that perpetuated war. Alicent feel guilty cause she misunderstood Viserys' last words. A character goal is not a requirement to making a character good and compelling. She doesn't need a goal she is going through emotional turmoil which is a result of her trauma and how that trauma motivated wrong decisions. The show makes this pretty clear.
Rhaenyra knowingly marrying a gay man was madness 😂
The whole problem was about making her character about "patriarchy" and "jealousy" in the first place. This show is supposed to be fantasy inspired by Antiquity and the Middle Ages. A queen has every right to want her own son and blood on the throne instead of the daughter of another woman. Historical figures likes Livia Drusilla, Roxelana, Agrippina the Younger, Isabella of France plotted and killed people to have their sons become emperors or kings. And no, it's not because they were misogynists or jealous mean girls, it's because they had a brain and knew pursuit of power was above everything. Like Cersei said "You win or you die". But the showrunners of HOTD and the audience are visibly unable to put aside their modern values and immerge themselves in a fantasy universe with different codes and rules.
Couldn't agree more. It's extremely frustrating to see modern values being pushed into a fantasy show set in medieval times.
EXACTLY!! especially in a place like Westeros where male primogeniture is tradition. The prophecy being included undermines Aegons claim to the throne placing rhaenyra as a “chosen” heir when that goes against GRRMs writing. Queen mothers have always played the game to ensure their blood ends up on the throne, and in history it was just a game for survival and power! Like you said I can see instances of Olympias and Nurbanu sultan, real historical women doing anything in their power to ensure their sons end up on top .
Anybody criticizing Alicent, don’t seem to understand they’d do the same if they had to choose between their own children or that of another’s. And it has nothing to do with female misogyny.
AGREED. And I also think it's being injected into Alicent (a WOMAN based on that period) that she was supposed to know all about cunning politics. I thinks she learned it as she lived, how different things are than what she imagined.
I can relate to that: as a child, I thought everything was as simples as "follow the rules and if everyone also follows the rules, it will all be fine". But she's seeing that other people don't follow the rules and she's losing herself and her purpose to things she can't control.
No teenage girl wants to marry an old man, with or without a crown on his head. She never enjoyed a second of it, and while she does love her children, how much of that love is tainted by the way they were conceived? They're the biggest sacrifice she was forced to make, the power and the crown were the justifications she was given. She never wanted them selfishly, but for others. Call it tradition, her house, her husband, her father's ambition. Her father specifically played her like a pawn, and sacrificed her body and soul for his desire for power. She may not have been physically forced, but I bet you know manipulation never works that way.
No human appreciates their agency being taken from them, not today or the middle ages or the fiction we humans create for our peers. Patriarchy may be a new word to you, but it has always existed, because oppression has always existed. Don't try to strip the media you like from depth just because you have a conflicting relationship with a concept, you're loosing too much.
@@Lu-li1ei I don't give a damn about the Alicent of the show. I was just pointing out why making this particular story about patriarchy was a flawed idea from the start. Queens in the Antiquity and Middle Ages would not care about this concept at all when scheming to have their sons rule kingdoms, they actually gained profit from it because monarchy is very much a consequence of patriarchy.
The show didn't add any kind of depth to the story. Instead of having an ambitious queen who acts logically in regards to her fantasy universe, we got a weak victim who is only here to teach us moral lessons about internalized misogyny and the pitfalls of being a jealous mean girl. I don't watch fantasy to get lectured by Hollywood people who subscribe to corporate feminism.
No one speaks on the fact that Allison was an idealistic, naïve young girl believing life was actually black and white under her father’s guidance, when she started making her decisions in the first season. She is now a seasoned queen who has experienced life and now she and her children are suffering the consequences of those said decisions she made in her idealistic youth.
She’s also beginning to see how naive she really was and it’s hitting her like a ton of bricks because she has no recourse.
I can't see jealousy as her sole motivation to be antagonistic towards Rhaenyra. The idea that her children would be in danger if Rhaenyra took the throne is backed up by Aemond losing an eye over an insult, an insult that is the truth mind you, and Viserys choosing to ignore his maimed and permanently disfigured child to side with his daughter and protect the lie. Rhaenyra finding her own freedom isn't a bad thing but Rhaenyra's freedom comes at a direct cost to others in a way that I can't consider moral, especially considering how little she cared about Aemond's maiming herself despite that being her little brother.
? The direct costs being?
Aemond lost his eye because he held a rock over Jacaerys' head and was about to bash his head open. Oh, and he said that the Velaryon boys would burn "like their father"
Don't threaten someone with death if you're not prepared for them to get violent right back.
Rhaenyra's freedom (and Laenor's) doesn't come at Alicent's cost. For fuck's sake, Aegon et al have the same lives that any non-heir would have, hell, Aegon wouldn't be allowed to get away with half of the crap he does in another family. Explain, using small words, when Rhaenyra fucked Alicent over (no, Otto finally getting punished for shit stirring isn't Rhaenyra fucking over Alicent, if anything, she treated Alicent with kid gloves considering she whored herself out for a Crown behind Rhaenyra's back under Otto's orders, let's be brutally honest here, as other female characters would've reminded Alicent of that every time Alicent opened her mouth for anything).
@@irondragonmaiden Its repulsive that you describe Alicent being forced into marrying Viserys as her whoring herself to him, like in what reality is this literal child marrying Viserys wrinkly ass and being forced to go to bed with him on Alicent?
Anyways, Aemond is a child and saying "He would have bashed their head in" is complete nonsense when he's getting jumped by several over children, one of which had a knife. Saying Aemond was trying to kill the Strong boys is as egregious as saying the Strong boys tried to assassinate Aemond, actually its less egregious as the Strong boys weren't the ones that got maimed. Rhaenyra's freedom does come at direct cost to other people that aren't Viserys nepo baby, her relationship with Harwin ends up getting the man killed along with his father, the heritage of her children require them to keep it a constant secret or else they risk being ostracized and puts them at odds with Vaemond (who also gets murdered to protect their claim born from a lie). Rhaenyra's freedom literally comes at a direct cost to Alicent puts her trust in her only for Rhaenyra to lie on the grave of her mother, something that gets Otto kicked out of King's Landing and leaves her alone.
@nuclear I mean I fully believe that Aemond never intended to actually kill Luke as he lowers the rock, but the Strong boys had no way of knowing that.
@irondragon Apparently you didn’t see the scene where Otto is literally preparing to knock on Viserys door. As he is clearly not happy about what he’s going to have tell Viserys (it’s literally his job to tell him as the crown princesses reputation being ruined is kinda important) he even hesitated before knocking.
Also the kids literally attacked Aemond first.
This entire show is based on patriarchy and how that translates to women. If rhaenyra was a man we wouldn't have had a dance of dragons. 😂😂 alicents arc is that she was a pawn for men, first her father then larys etc etc etc. She was jealous that rhaenyra didn't care and acted as she wanted. But alicent grew up and as a grown woman she sees things differently. I don't find it that complicated tbh
Does she really see things differently? As a grown woman she still played along with her father’s whims. The patriarchy, her husband, begged her for YEARS to supports his choice in rhaenyra, wed their children together and push a matriarchy to the throne. She was an adult by this point btw. But she refused, because of jealously of her friends freedom? And what freedom is that? Rhaenyra has her own contentions with the patriarchy herself. If Alicent truly saw things clearly as an adult she wouldn’t be doing any of the crap she was on since forcing Rhaenyra to walk across kings landing after giving birth.
My question is why did she suddenly stop caring about the safety of her family in episode eight? She knows Rhaenyra can't let her sons live because they would pose a threat to her claim to The Iron Throne. If not now, then certainly in the future, when Jace is on the Throne, her line's claim wouldn't be so strong as it during her lifetime. Therefore, Rhaenyra would get rid of Alicent's sons to secure the Throne for herself and her line. Shouldn't Alicent be trying to prevent this possibility?
If Rhaenyra was a man and tried to leave the throne to her bastards then the dance of dragons would have still happened. You can't just skip legitimate heirs in favour of bastards and think nobody would have any problem with it.
Aegon IV the Unworthy wanted to do the same things as Rhaenyra. He was known for it as the worst king in history. He also started a civil war because he tried to leave the throne to the bastards.
And then we have Joffrey. Joffrey wasn't of Robert's blood, which means he had no claim to the throne similarly to Robert's bastards. The legitimate heir was only Stannis. Nobody cared that Robert had CHOSEN Joffrey before his death, civil war still was started because Robert left his crown to somebody without a claim.
Generally every single time a king tries to leave the crown to somebody without a claim civil war starts. It's was never about Rhaenyra being a woman.
Besides another reason for the dance was that Rhaenyra was a tyrant. She pressured Viserys to murder innocent people for stating the truth about her children parentage. She herself has been murdering people (she fed Vaemond to her dragon).
Honestly in the books the main argument Alicent uses ro convince Aegon to take the throne he didn't want was " if you won't do it Rhaenyra will kill you, your brothers and our entire family". Considering that Rhaenyra never even tried to build any relationship with Aegon or his siblings and already has been murdering people I think it wasn't unreasonable for Aegon to agree with Alicent's argument. Afterall Rhaenyra was already murdering innocents, and she wanted to leave the throne to her bastards. What would be the safest way to be sure she gets her wish? Kill her siblings with whom she had no bond and the closest legitimate targs that could challenge her, children of her rival.
@s1b3r11 IF frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they leaped. Rhaenyra is not a man. And as far as putting bastards on the throne and Noone does anything about it, two words, joffrey bareatheon.. aka joffrey lannister. So it's happened but at the end of the day, it didn't matter who the other parent is, the only thing that mattered is that they were targaryens. Which they were, and dragon riders.
@@crimetimewithjess5366 they weren't Targaryens. Jon Snow wasn't a Stark he was a Snow. Rhaenyra's children were Waters - name used for bastards in Crownlands. She tried to parade them as Targs but they never were Targs. And the fact that they had dragons doesn't mean anything they had exactly same claim to the throne as Ulf the White, Hugh Hammer or Nettles. Which is NONE.
Funny how you're trying to skip Aegon IV. The dude was male version of Rhaenyra and he also started a civil war by doing exactly the same thing she did. Which means it wasn't about her being a woman.
Every single time a king tries to choose somebody with no claim as successor it ALWAYS causes war. Why should Rhaenyra be an exception.
It would've been more sympathetic if Alicent actually was the "evil" step mother who supported her effectively disinherited sons from the beginning (or at least after Green dress scene) if only because when there are conflicting claims, "you win or you die" and because of a genuine belief that following the line of sons and grandsons meant the most stability.
She literally plotted for 20 years and then suddenly started caring about what Viserys wanted at the end. Worse yet, you still get the impression she cares more about Rhaenyra than any of the Greens so the turning point at the Green dress scene was hollow.
I think Alicent's character is consistent in how she is written. However as a person, she is conflicted and struggling to find her place in the world. Her inconsistent reactions towards Rhaeynera make sense in context of her being jealous, but also having a standard of being a dutiful and righteous queen. She wants to uphold the laws and customs, but hates them at the same time.
So it makes sense that she jumps into the opportunity of crowning Aegon - that feeds into her envy of Rhaeynera. However it also makes sense she is shocked by a preexisting conspiracy found by Otto. She is left out and it's doing something behind the king's back, whereas she wants to do things dutifully and by the book. She cares about her children in a superficial way. Sure, she will protect them from physical harm and be worried about their well-being, but she is also distant and unable to form a proper emotional connection to them. My mother is a very simmilar person in many regards, so I had no problem finding any of Alicent's actions contradictory. They make sense, if you consider her conflicting motivations.
Great insight. I have similar thoughts. To me it seems pretty clear in season 1 that alicent wants autonomy. She may not outright say it but that’s how she reads to me. The social norms of Westeros nor her father care and deny her this freedom. This leads to her envy of rheanyra. Otto uses Alicent as a pawn in his political schemes. This cold and calculating dynamic continues with Alicent and her children. Continuing a cyclical pattern of abuse. She uses her righteousness as a coping machanism. I hope that wasn’t redundant. I thought it added to your point.
Frankly, I think her shock in 1x10 makes perfect sense, both because she realizes how little power she has in the council, and because of the love she still bears deep down for Rhaenyra. She is a deeply conflicted character partly because her black-and-white sense of "morality" clashes so hard with reality/her jealousy and fear. She has spent years both resenting Rhaenyra/fearing her claim, especially with someone as ruthless as Daemon behind her, and yet she doesn't send anyone after her when she leaves the sept in S2.
This is because at the end of the day, Rhaenyra is still the only friend she has ever been allowed to have, a symbol of a simpler time. In 1x09, she finally gets a small rekindling of the only true intimacy her life has known, a small hope that maybe, maybe, all the fearmongering was for nothing. Certainly, she deludes herself with the upcoming miscommunication, and continues this naivety with a certain cognitive dissonance that this news will not lead to Rhaenyra's slaughter. Her years of repeating Otto's cycles are one thing in her mind, but when the blood starts flowing and the coup begins, the shock sets in; she isn't as ready to part with her dream of peace between them as she thought.
Of course she is shocked-she has never been allowed to truly examine what she wants, and only the real-time escalation reveals that this feels much worse than all the time she spent imagining it. Otto doesn't tell her about the coup not because she is a woman, but because he is calculating enough to know of this repression in her. She certainly holds repressed ambition and fear for her children, but her long-dead love for Rhaenyra, for a fictional peace where everyone lives but the Greens somehow get their way, is another painful sacrifice on the list.
Of course her bitterness and hypocrisy in season 2 are a natural progression-she has been forced to live the acceptance that the only way out at this point, for both her and her family, is through. All the regrets she may be developing about the years behind them are meaningless to the ugliness of civil war. Of course she changes. Of course she succumbs to a guilt-ridden intimacy with Cole after decades of one-sided, obligatory love with Viserys. Of course this only worsens her self-hating spiral. Of course she resents her sons even harder now, while only really living for them & Helaena at this point-they are all living lonnng before the onset of therapy, lol.
I really think the only thing that could have fleshed her out more would perhaps be an earlier mention of Daeron's loss, but it also fits-she is a deeply repressed character and he hasn't been in her life since she sent him to ward, far away from the poison of the Red Keep.
Season 2 they wasted Alicent and Daemon's character arcs so badly.
Alicent being a cold and jaded woman who got rejected by the men on councils and even doesn't know how to interract with her children anymore like she sees them as strangers.
Daemon for spending too much time tripping in mushrooms on worst Air BnB ever in Harenhall. Bruh.
Book alicent is so much better it’s not close. Got was the same time period and it didn’t tell us about the patriarchy every episode like this show, it also didn’t make the men bad and the women pacifist.
Ikr? Sometimes, I feel like the show's main theme is the feminist statement, “If women were in charge, there would be no wars.”
The women have no agency, especially Alicent. They need to constantly toe the line of what’s morally right while all of the men around them do nothing but criticize them for being women, ousting them from having a say in this war as much as they can.
Alicent couldn’t even decide for herself to put her son on the throne, despite the show giving us multiple understandable explanations of why she’d want that. She just sat there with Pikachu-face while the men around her plotted. It’s so incredibly insulting.
19:06 crazy how you accurately predicted the next few eps
The writers of this show are proving with each new passing episode that they have no respect or loyalty to the source material, let alone their own established character writing.
They dont have the balls to make a evil woman in this show
Now that we have leaks of the season finale, i can say without a doubt she's the worst chracter in the entire showverse: GOT included. It's absurd she still have so much screentime and this preminence activelly harms other, more important characters (her childrens) and the entire show as a whole. I honestly believe she have the same screentime of Aegon, Aemond and Haelaena combined for absolutely no reasons
The actors warned us that there's a major difference in the writing after Miguel left and I regret not listening
My original answer to that question is Alicent wants for her children to survive. And after watching the entire video I think you're missing a key component to her character which explains her back and forth. Otto lays it flat out, if she wants her sons to live, either they take the throne or she throws herself and her children at Rhaenyra's mercy.
Alicent's original plan was to do the latter. After all, they were dear friends once. Surely, her dear friend wouldn't murder her children to secure her power, right? Right?
When Alicent asks Rhaenyra if she slept with Daemon, Rhaenyra *swears on her dead mother* that she did not sleep with Daemon, which was true. But she had slept with Cole. That's is what made Alicent turn against Rhaenyra. She has to trust Rhaenyra to be honorable and not harm her kids and at the moment Alicent felt like she couldn't trust Rhaenyra at all. And Rhaenyra producing bastard after bastard just further led her to believe her father was right. Rhaenyra would make a mess of everything, her rule would be questioned and she'd have to put down her brothers to secure her reign.
And if there was any doubt in Alicent's mind that is what would happen, an incident where her son has been maimed ends up with Rhaenyra suggesting Aemond, her now one eyed brother, *be tortured* to find out who told him her kids are bastards. Alicent has every reason under the sun to believe her kids are on the chopping block, they are already losing pieces.
At the dinner, they reconcile and Alicent decides to once again put faith in Rhaenyra to do the right thing. After all, Alicent wants to be a good person and obey the wishes of her father and husband. That's why she's conflicted, what if your husband's wishes puts the lives of your children in danger? Where should your loyalty lie?
So when she thinks he named Aegon, she thought that all her years of being a dutiful and obedient wife were finally paying off and in the end he did right by her and their kids. But it didn't really matter, the Green Council was putting Aegon on that throne no matter what she said or thought about it.
This is pure gold so many good points here.
People cling to the idea that Alicent's children being in danger if Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne as just a paranoid fantasy.
But as you point out it's really not. Just to add to the list RIP Vaemond Velaryon, her father-in-laws brother who she allowed to be brutally murdered for telling the truth.
It absolutely would not be out of character for her to have her half brothers killed off. Or, at the very least, let Daemon do it for her whilst maintaining plausible deniability.
@@michaelbuick6995 Yeah, anyone claiming everything would have been just fine if the Greens had simply handed over the reigns of power and vacated the Red Keep have paid no attention of Targaryen history or the real history it pulls from. Alicent's sons would end up in the Westeros version of The Tower if they were lucky, but more than likely they'd just all end up dead. The Blacks are impulsive and inexperienced. They would have made a mess and people would want the Greens back, so Rhaenyra would have to kill her brothers to secure her rule, and if she didn't have the stomach for it, she married someone who did for that exact reason. When Viserys refused to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon, the Dance was happening.
Do you still feel the same after the season finale?
@@michaelbuick6995 чушь, она не имела никакой привязанности к Веймонду Велариону, он нападал на неё и её детей, с чего вдруг ей беспокоиться о его судьбе? И его убийство не было жестоким, ему снесли голову одним движением, он даже почувствовать ничего не успел. Честно говоря, я не верю, что вы говорите искренне, когда утверждаете, что Рейнира могла бы убить своих сибилингов. Очевидно, что она не могла. В книге Рейнира была более злой и жаждущей власти, но даже там она до последнего предлагала своим сибилингам сдаться, вернуть её трон, и она оставит их в живых. Вы на полном серьезе утверждаете, что Рейнира из сериала могла убить кого-то из своих сибилингов, если бы они не убили её ребёнка и узурпировали трон? Если да, то вы врёте себе
@@forcecaptainoverlordsuprem2964 No. Now I feel like a clown. Thanks for asking. 😂
Simple answer. She lies to herself to escape fault. She wants her son on the throne. Period
Her change of mind isn't necessarily bad writing.
Alicent was a religious and traditional lady, faithful to the rules and order of her society.
> There is what she wanted, and thought to be legitimate, that is, seeing Aegon become King because she believed Rhaenyra to be a "sinner", and her entire line (who would inherit the throne) to be bastards. Hence her need to see every newborn. She thought at one point Viserys would open his eyes to this, but he never did or chose not to.
> But also, there was for her a duty to fulfill, that is, respecting (not accepting) her husband's decision. She might have genuinely made peace with it at the final dinner. Her words towards Rhaenyra seemed sincere. Then what she heard from Viserys death bed changed her mind again, and sent her back to her initial mind frame.
@@elmaestroco and then she us supprised otto was going to crown aegon, and we got supid meetimg with Rhaenyra, where alicent remined her of "i said you woud be good queen", and now she isnt even on council?
The writing of the show is kind of poor.
Alicent has NEVER known was she wanted! As she said to Otto, “how would I know? I wanted whatever you impressed upon me to want.”
I suppose the writers thought that the theme of "women being victims of the patriarchal system" was too good to pass up, even at the expense of character development.
In this second season, it became more evident that they are so eager to draw a parallel between Alicent and Rhaenyra being pushed out of power, despite the fact that they do possess real power (Alicent being able to manipulate Aegon, which was her most obvious option, and yet she doesn't do it; and Rhaenyra being the Queen, yet for some reason, she allows herself to be controlled by her council, something Daenerys would never have done). In summary, the writers wanted their two protagonists to be victims of male-dominated power, ruining what could have been the best characters in the series.
Alicent is quite honestly the most human character in this show (together with Baela), everyone else is either a caricature or an archetype. Her being flipfloppy with her thoughts and emotions, being highly conflicted, a hypocrite religious conservative, being righteous for the sake of being righteous, someone who has good intentions but because of her upbringing and for what she was told ever since she was a child to be the "right thing" which turned out to be just the same narratives that people have used to control others and also how it was used to control her. She never knew what was it like to be free like Rhaenyra and how inconsistent she was in the show compared to the book (who is its own separate canon) was very fascinating and refreshing to see in a series where no one ever has second thoughts about their convictions.
Watched the finale? Alicent betraying her family for Rhaenyra? The woman that wanted Aemond tortured right after he lost an eye, starved a city, and husband decapitated her grandson? Absolute fanfic.
Really want to hear your thoughts after season 2's finale lol.
Perhaps a matter of perspective, but the overall point of the video is imo what makes her one of the more realistic and 'normal' human beings. Though there are exceptions, most humans most of the time do not live every moment/day and make all decisions and judgements as if for a clear unified goal or purpose, are inconsistent, atleast subconsciously, whatever a person may believe about themselves subjectively.
Fictional characters are more typically caricatured and consistent in ways a real person is not. Most ppl most the time ppl are caught in the flow of events and ppl around them, the rails they see themselves on, and subjectively interpreting events in ways that tend to fit within their personal narrative in tandem with their emotional processing, despite not having a congruent singular underlying logic in realtime on the subconscious level where decision making and behaviors originate. There tends to be patterns of decision making and behavior, yet much of the actual reason our minds do what they do dont actually align with what we may consciously think/believe nor are our decisions based on what we always think they are. We mostly post hoc rationalize things to fit our narrative regardless of why we do X, y, z.
In Zen buddhism, asking simple questions such as "Who are you" or "What do YOU want" are unanswerable 'Koans' which one can spend years meditating on without a clear unbiased answer. There are drives, there are desires... but the deeper one introspects on such things, the more it appears to be like an onion, cutting away layer after layer to find the 'core' only to find nothing. Alicent seems more like a normal human being to me than most characters for these sorts of reasons, imo.
*Season1 Ep 6 Alicent:* "You are the challenge Aegon! Just by breathing! And existing! You are the challenge, you shall be king or your loved ones will all die!"
*Season 2 Alicent:* "I... i just thought Viserys had a vision about Aegon before dying... Rhaenyra i love you, i made a mistake"
@@bornarose11 because first one isnt true. Treathimg Rhaenyra as guaranteed enemy is just asking for enemy. So we need more exuses for alicent . Which may even mean sometimg if otto wasnt leading green council, and then aemond.
@anjadjurovic9617 I think both are justified tbh, Otto is a manipulator. But Alicent being worried for her kid's safety is totally justified and in fact they are in danger, as long as Rhaenyra and Daemon get along, her male brothers are at risk of being killed for being a potential threat to her claim. No one wants to take that risk and just hope for her to have mercy, Rhaenyra already lied to Alicent many times (from Alicent's pov) even by swearing in the name of her difunt mother. How can Alicent trust her word that her family will remain unharmed now? And Otto took advantage of that fear to drive her
@@bornarose11 hate that argument, no offence. In past kings werent killing their brothers just for potential enemy. Rhaenyra position is different, but killing her half siblings ( even if trying to make it as accidents) would reflect badly on her. And alicent went beyond just potential enemy, she was literally telling teenage aegon he will be king is killed. Later episode will try to make her not really ambitious, bit that sound like preparim for usurpation with exise of "I had to, they woud kill us if i didn't?" Alicent just adopted otto logic, (for time, because show wont make her consistent) . We know half a realm didnt refuse Rhaenyra moment aegon was crowned. Instead that ensured war bezweet 2 teams.
@@bornarose11 also, lying doesnt equal to beimg murderer( especially of family) . Usrupation is opposite of not taking risk, its hitting other side fist with excuse, "they woud hit me, definitely" .fact stand that greens started dance.
@anjadjurovic9617 Past kings definitely *were* killing their siblings for possible enemy 😭 even in this world Cleopatra herself did. Listen, if you don't wanna see things from the Green's perspective, that's okay, but i think both teams are justified in their fears. Esp Alicent, Rhaenyra lies. She always lies and gets what she wants, and everyone in her family enables her. If Rhaenyra promises not to harm Aegon and her other brothers, how valuable is her word to be taken? Rhaenyra has Daemon on her side, which is terribly risky for team green. Would you really risk your children possibly getting killed because your childhood best friend promised she would not harm them? Even Jace knows that his mother lies a her word cannot be taken seriously, and that harms her reputation with allies
I don’t think they are making her inconsistent for the audience to sympathize with the greens. It’s done for the audience to sympathize with HER specifically, because like you said she is a woman and women=good, men=bad
And since team green is oposing women in power, and their" candidate" is horrible, show put alicent as victim. To win sympaty for her team. Nevermind logic.
Have you like not been watching the show properly? Alicent wanted peace! And Otto made her believe the only way that can happen is by making Aegon heir. But at the dinner scene, right before Viserys dies, Alicent realizes that what her father said may not be entirely true, so she calls Rhenerya Queen, but because of the misunderstanding and also because of the bug Otto had put in her head, she votes for Aegon but still cares for Rhenerya. So yes, she wants Aegon on the throne after Viserys's death and thus thinks it will bring peace. It's human nature buddy, it's a mixture of lot of emotions, that's what makes her such an exceptional character. Don't try to deduct it to objective arguments.
@@aditchandrachud9216 "only way to make peace is to make aegon kimg? Because aegon is such nice guy , and obivously Rhaenyra, daemon amd their supporters will just back off?" I know alicent is manipuladed, but if she ever trought for minute, she would realise her actions are against peace.
I am here because this video keeps showing up on my feed and I swear the thumbnail has changed 3 times.
I absolutely agree with this video! This is the issue with the show. It’s a great show but the show is completely inconsistent when it comes to the characters. And the biggest victims of this inconsistency is Alicent and even Rhaenyra.
In the season premiere she literally tells Otto that she wants victory. The prophecy reveal shook her confidence but she wants her son on the throne.
As a Puppet King no less.
@@Senate300 well she did try grooming him his entire life and he never took an interest or took it seriously. So what can he do now but listen to the smart people around him?
@@khaleazy3550 Thing is those smart people around Aegon II wanted to rule through him rather than show him the ropes. And since Aegon had little interest in being king at first, why shouldn't they? Plus Alicent also drummed into her son that as soon as Rhaenera takes the throne, she would have him and his siblings killed.
someone send this video to the writers room, maybe they will learn a thing or two
She doesn’t know what she want and that is the point, or better, the two things she wanted aka the safety of her family and Rhaenyra living can’t coexist at the same time. Alicent was never allowed to think what she wanted, she had to do what her father said, seeing the kind and then becoming queen and making children, duty duty and duty. She resent Rh for doing what she wanted she wish she could do the same (and we see her sleeping with Cole this season which is ironic) while fearing her because Otto told her if she became queen, Rh would slay her children. She feels all this while deeply loving her. It is a war in her mind. That’s why when she felt betrayed by Rh in season 1 and listened to her father fears, she decided to antagonise her and her bastard children, because 1) it was the right thing to do aka duty and 2) fear of her. But her love for her is still strong. That’s again why when during the dinner is season 1 Rh apologised to her, Alicent accepts the apology avé tells her she will be a great queen because she loves her and because that apology muted her fear for a second, maybe she will not slay my children she might have thought and whatever the legitimacy of hers, that’s what her father wants. Right? But hell no because she goes into visible panic when Viserys on his death bed talks about Aegon as king and she misunderstands him. Now Aegon, her child needs to be on the throne because it is even the king that says so! But Rh must live! And so she is shocked when she finds out the council was plotting behind her back to kill her all this time. All season two is about her telling herself that war was inevitable because Viserys had changed his mind and Rh would have never accepted… that is why her world collapses when Rh confirms her in the temple that she misunderstood Viserys and Rh is still legitimate. It all becomes a mistake even more, sth impossible to repair because Lucerys and Aegon son are already being killed, and now it’s all a revenge of a revenge of a revenge. So what did Alicent want? Aegon on the throne and Rh alive. Peace between the families. What does she ‘want now? I suppose Rh on the throne even more, I mean she never never wanted Aegon on the throne (« you are not my son ») because of him being being an alcoholic rapist, she knew it was the wrong choice but she pushed I him to be better because it had to be!!! They had to survive right? Mostly she realised she made a mistake but it was inevitable. All of this would have happened anyway because Otto would have started it on its own after Viserys death. Because everyone wanted power and her she just wanted to live, love her friend and family. So now she is totally lost. She doesn’t know what she wants anymore.
Look, they want to have their cake (Alicent as an ambitious political player who wants the throne no matter who falls) and to eat it (make Alicent this poor little woobie that people need to sympathize with)
The thing of it is, Alicent isn't meant to be this poor little meow meow who does no wrong and is morally in the right.
Hell, the books even show how she out and out harasses and abuses 10 year old Rhaenyra in her own home when Viserys makes it clear that, son or no son, he is not changing the line of succession due to peer pressure again and Rhaenyra is going to remain his heir. The ENTIRE point of her character is that she is the Phyllis Schlafly of Westeros: she outright endorses misogyny and sexism and the patriarchy because she herself benefits from it through marrying and breeding a son with Viserys. She and her faction are the ONLY ones who make a stink about male primogeniture (see Jeyne Arryn, the REAL first Liege Lady in her own right even with living male relatives).
GRRM didn't make a mistake when he had Otto nominate the still very much female Rhaenyra over the still very much male Daemon, it was DELIBERATE to show that the Hightowers WERE ALWAYS A BUNCH OF POWER-HUNGRY HYPOCRITES. Otto endorsed Rhaenyra because, at the time, she was barely 9 and so too young to have his number and be rightfully wary of him and his, whereas Daemon has known since the beginning that Otto and his ilk are backstabbing cockroaches and has been playing Cato in reminding Viserys that Otto can't be trusted. THAT was the dramatic irony: we KNOW that Daemon is right about Otto but no one believes him.
The entire point is that if Viserys only shot X chromosome sperm and all 4 of Alicent's children were girls, Alicent and Otto would STILL try to find a way to make girl!Aegon Queen over her older sister. It was ALWAYS about them being opportunists.
Instead, they try to make Alicent into this "sympathetic tradwife who had no choice" character... which, honestly, it's more like they showed the origin story of how someone becomes the embodiment of toxic femininity and decides becoming a Phyllis Schlafly sort of person who doubles down in order to justify the fact that she had a horrible marriage because female roles in a patriarchal society suck ass. And, well, she is still participating in her own oppression because she cares more about punishing the women who actually have the courage/means/willingness to pushback against this bullshit system.
Again, that's why she winds up imprisoned when their side loses and no one has anymore use for her and yet let Tyland Lannister, one of the co-conspirators, go free. It's a classic "what do you mean, the leopards are now going to eat my face?!" moment.
The show would've ironically had more success in inducing SOME sympathy (paired with a "what did you expect?" sort of sardonic tilt) if it had Alicent overtly be part of the attempted usurpation (including the slut-shaming campaign) only to then face epic levels of misogyny from her own camp when they deem her as expendable or even as a rival for their control over the puppet "king" Aegon. "Oh, well, you're a woman, you can't be expected to make actual decisions?" or "Power is not for woman, look at how Rhaenyra is going against the natural order!" and all that crap as she's sidelined. Even worse if her affair with Cole is then used to slut-shame her out of any actual position of real power, essentially using the same techniques she used against Rhaenyra to cull her and take power away from her (only, unlike Rhaenyra, she can't tell them all to go fuck themselves with their bullshit since then she'd out herself as a hypocrite).
If they wanted to make a story about the patriarchy and how it fucks over everyone, including the women who ally themselves to it and become active participants in their own oppression, THAT would've been a much better track. Especially since that is what happens to the Alicent Hightowers of the world: they campaign against other women having anything resembling rights and when their party wins/gains traction, they quickly find themselves the victims of sexism and misogyny and their ideas are not respected. Her entire arc about her facing the consequences of fighting for the "leopards eating people's faces" party would at least induce some sympathy from the more soft-hearted without insulting anyone's intelligence.
Heck, you might even have a moment similar to Cersei's Walk of Shame, where the well-adjusted audience is conflicted. On the one hand, finally, that bitch got her comeuppance! On the other hand.... this is essentially a ritualistic slut-shaming punishment that is punishing her for being a woman who had sex in her own terms. The reason WHY she's being punished is fucked up, when they could've been punishing her for the ACTUAL horrific shit she's done like Mycah's murder or torturing Alayaya or the psychological torture of Sansa.
You could have something similar with Alicent: she's punished in a brutal way (so many people are cheering at this bitch FINALLY getting her comeuppance) but... the reason she's punished is for fucking Cole.
And while we also want her to be punished for her hypocrisy, frankly, her fucking Cole isn't the issue. The problem is her cruelty, it's forcing Rhaenyra to do the Red Walk, it's her turning her children against Rhaenyra (who, BTW, never once entertained killing them because KINSLAYING IS A MAJOR TABOO! At most, she'd give them ornamental positions of power or send them to "diplomatic missions" with a very generous salary in Essos so they wouldn't get ideas. For fuck's sake, she even offered them positions of power even after the coup, but before Lucerys' murder, because kinslaying is taboo! And she was all for decapitating Otto and Alicent herself), etc...
Basically, she's always been a hypocrite who tries to paint herself as a victim and or a hero. That's what makes her unlikeable, not only is she awful, but she insults our intelligence by acting like she should be the poor little victim.
are we just gonna ignore the part of show where Viserys is desperately trying to bring the family before his up coming death. Alicent only came around to supporting Rhaenyra because she saw how it was destroying what Viserys had built.
Exactly! Alicent may be spiteful but she is not a monster without feelings, she is not Joeffrey...
Even though Alicent is self-righteous doesn’t mean that she has no genuine respect for laws, norms and King’s wishes.
I think the point of that scene was that Alicent somewhat intentionally misunderstood King’s words and it fits perfectly with her character. That makes her half-justified at best, meaning she’s also half-guilty. It is very obvious King’s words had nothing to do with succession choices, so there was not to genuinely misinterpret. And anybody would consider that monologue as just a frail old man mumbling before death.
For the Queen to “misinterpret” Viserys’ words she would have to push it a little. It’s not completely disingenuous, but it’s also not a genuine mistake. It’s both. It fits her initial goals and motivations and her desire to be lawful.
The dinner scene also makes sense. Again, she is quite lawful, albeit self-righteous. When she saw the possibility of reconciliation (which she wanted earlier in the season) and had guarantees that it wouldn’t affect her kids negatively, she went for it, because it was her duty. And she is at least somewhat dedicated to her duties (if not fully).
Before the very end we see a battle between her sense of duty and lawfulness versus her old ambitions and frustrations. Could the duty ever win against the ambition? For a time maybe, but ultimately obviously it couldn’t, because the moment the Queen could half-artificially subvert the law with her “misunderstanding”, she grasped the opportunity.
I think the story did it well. Now that it is revealed to her that she did indeed misunderstand the situation, she had to go defensive and justify not rectifying her mistake - if we’re being real no woman or man would singlehandedly stop the war at that point, no matter how law-abiding they are
In the books her character was consistent. She was cunning and wanted the throne.
In the show at one side they can't shy away from her actively trying to turn her children against Rhaenyra and spreading rumors about her... Yet they still want to portray her as victim who only acted because she believed Viserys told her some prophecy.... It makes no sense. If she only acted because of prophecy why did she constantly told her children Rhaenyra's children are bastards? In season 1 after Aemond loses an eye Aegon is even forced to take a blame for Alicent because he is afraid that Rhaenyra and Viserys will kill his mother for going against Rhaenyra
10 mins in and its the stupidest reasoning video. Like an 18 year old whose whole concept of reasoning is limited to jealousy and sex.
The reason why the scene where Alicent finds out Rhaenyra lied is so important is because she trusted Rhaenyra and vouched for her while she lied (swore even) for her benefit which made Alicent realise that her father (no matter how despicable) was RIGHT. Rhaenyra will lie to get what she needs, which means Alicent and her kids will never be safe as Rhaenyra has the potential to just lie about being ok with Aegon and Alicent until she gets the throne and murders them all to avoid any challenge to her throne.
From that moment, she cant be passive and let things be. She has to take charge (especially now that her father is gone) and ensure that her family is safe and the only way to do that is to ensure Aegon becomes King. That is why the older Alicent is so hostile towards Rhaenyra. She only has time to do something until Rhaenyra takes the throne. After that its game over for them. Thats why we see her being desperate for things to go wrong for Rhaenyra.
That exact moment was important because it showed Alicent Rhaenyra's true character and how she could not be trusted even when she swears it. Not because of some stupid sex or jealousy thing. Jesus Christ.
preach
You said it yourself that Alicent relies on duty, sacrafice, and most of all honor in order to rectify her doings as she constantly lies to herself due to the interminable pressure she faces from figures like her father. The fact that she harshly rejected the thought of the small council plotting against Viserys is completely in line with her character. She is a juxtaposition which makes it admitedly hard to follow her desires, yes, but the crutial thing about her character is that she also shares a young and strong platonic love for rhaenyra. Everyone else around her has convinced her to hate Rhaenyra, although she hasn't fully convinced herself of that, no matter what lies she tries to conjure to convince the audience of that. With that being said, any action she DOES take against Rhaenyra must be bedded in those pillars of duty sacrafice and honor. That is why she so easily heard a miscommunication from Viserys in order to crown Aegon. Viserys talking about ASOIAF was her golden ticket. It meant that she could please her inner dialogue and her morals, while also pleasing 'the realm' as in the men around her pushing her to crown aegon, and it gives her an excuse to lie to herself about Rhaenyra, allowing her to still have some remorse for Rhaenyra truly, as she thinks her father just rejected her, while still trampling forward. I completely disagree with you on why Alicent's character is 'ruined'. Her and Aegon are easily my most favorite characters of this show and its very evident even in this video why: They're real. They're hard to understand because they're so complex. That is life within royalty. I think Alicent and Aegon are some of the most human characters in this show.
@@titusmorris7482 you may even have point for aegon (even if he is horrible) but alicent is not realistic. Her "love for Rhaenyra " is not really believable. After Rhaenyra lied about her sex life, alicent totaly believes otto that Rhaenyra is wiling to kill her half siblings. After timeskip, she wanted aegon as king, wanted her kids to hate Rhaenyra, took allies as criston and larys...but somehow thats not to hurt Rhaenyra. She opposes Rhaenyra, but when is crucial moment(ep 9), she caress so much, otto coments on it. That is, she just opposes murder of Rhaenyra. And that Stupid page scene also ruin Rhaenyra character. Both women now care for childhood frienship more than everything since then. Kingdom, rights, law, and their kids potentialy in danger (alicent's kids woudnt be if they didnt usrup, but whatever, otto convinced alicent they were already in danger).
@@titusmorris7482 Misunderstanding Viserys" and "greens were plotting anyway" feel like just exuses. Anything to clean alicent from blame for coup. Its not she deluded herself, but like she actually believed, (otherwise sept scene makes even less sense, she would just continue to lie to herself). And its not like her believing that changes anything, rest of greens were already doing what they agreed. Its sad that one of more important female characters is reduced to not really important to plot. She isnt villain because society and duty lead her to it, she is pawn who stayed in teenage mentality, with occasional mean moments to connect to her book character.
Being a victim and crying is literally her only character trait and why her lame fans praise her so much: Oohh, look at her she is so complex. She is crying here and here and here. Can't justice be served about the poor victim who ever victimed?
There are slight inconsistencies, like how Alicent feels about Aemond in particular being so wishy washy, defending him in one breath, sneering about him the next. But Alicent's arc feels natural me as a character who is a woman that doesn't deconstruct her own internalized misogyny. The men in her life manipulated her and are responsible for the misery in her life... up to a certain point. Eventually she became what she hated. She is repeating the cycle. Her anger at rhaenyra is really anger at the system for how it treated her. But instead of seeing it that way, she uses rhaenyra as a scapegoat for her anger. And constantly seeking the approval of every male figure in her life, well into her adulthood. Through her position of power, through sex, through motherhood. But she fails to realize she's trying to win the love and respect of men by playing the roles desired of her that were designed to keep her subjugated.
@@dra2521 still show wsnt her to ve seen as sympatetic and definitely aimimg for peace
Ooof I sense another video coming from you regarding Alicent lol
The show is so messy... I wasn't much of a fan of GoT but watching HotD I miss it so much. I started appreciating Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, Robb, etc. They all had agenda. Cersei was terrible, but she was amazing character comparing to Alicent and Rhaenyra. She knows want she wants and she does everything to succeed it. Besides, to me Lena Headey is exceptional actress. I'm not impressed by Daenerys's character. To me she wasn't so exciting. But she also had an ultimate goal.
I so, so disagree. My answer in the beginning was: Alicent wants power. And it is a very general statement, but I think it holds up.
The diner when Allicent says Rhaenyra to take the throne. She may not want it down deep, but she loved her husband and she is the one who obeys. In that moment she thought, maybe I am not being fair and she changed her mind. That doesn't mean, that if the eye incident wouldn't happen she wouldn't regret it next week. She would stand by her word, but she could be suffering.
When she was angry at the small council trying to put the king on the throne, it's not because she didn't want it. It's because she thought by playing by the rules of the game, at this point her opinions would be taken into account. These are her children and she wants to have agency over them. But it was being taken from her bit by bit.
The end of Season 1 scene was a big reason for her to grab, because it was a good justification for what she wanted anyway. Her reason was making her a bit conflicted, but these words said "what you want at heart is the good choice", that's why she dedicated herself to it.
But then with time her children got further and further away from her. Putting them on the throne wasn't selfless, she also wanted some of that power. So when she saw that although it's her children being the most important people in the kingdom, she is again, nobody, she shifted her focus from them to herself.
And whens he told Aegon to lay back and do nothing. I don't think it was her saying "do what I did". I believe it was her saying "You were suppose to be my puppet who I would teach how to make the right (mine) decisions. Stop having your own opinions and let us (me) rule in your stead.
Both Rhaenyra and Alicent grew less ruthless and more resiliant and calm with this Season. It's not like Alicent stopped hating Rhaenyra, but she has enough empathy to see how the situation looks from her side to not let her personal conflict influence the whole kingdom. They had moments of connection and having a common goal (not starting a dragon war), and they both project the good they remember on each other.
So, is it the best written character in history? Obviously no. But I do think she stays consistent and her choices make sense.
George rr hates writing a full black and white characters he likes complicated characters but i agree i think if alicent was unapologetic about what she wanted it would make her more compelling
Thank you for clarofying that Alicent was just angry and jealous at Rhaenyra in the eye for an eye episode, because the amount of people that said that she was in the "right" like, you really think Viserys would purposely have his grandchild eye taken, is already bad that his son does not have an eye but that was an accident.
Lol, team black and team green ARE two sides of the same coin. They are arrogant, entitled royals willing to unleash hell upon the innocent smallfolk to secure their power. The smallfolk suffer when powerful men AND women play their game of thrones. Did you miss the entire point of GRRM's story??
It appears this video is going to age like fine wine, after that season 2 finale
I might be simple for saying this, But I see Alicent as allegory for conservative woman, and Rhaenyra as allegory for feminist liberal woman. One believe the way to achieve success is through compliance and abiding by the rules of society, the other achieves success through self purpose and bending the rules. Now occasionally these types of people waver in other directions, but their core ideas are still intact. Am I wrong for simply believing just that of the characters? or is there something more for me to understand about them? This is not meant for mean comments back. I haven't read the book. I am general curious what more Should I know about these two Characters?
It gets worse, that scene in the finale ruins it beyond repair
Its possible for a character to have more than one motivation, and alicent clings to the idea of the moral good, so it makes perfect sense that she would internalize a misunderstanding to support the propoganda of whats right that otto drilled into her as a young girl, and even though only until episode 4 is out, you can already see the results of her no longer being allowed to operate on the misconception that she willed herself into believing since she spent the whole of the episode looking for evidence of the dream rhaenyra told her about. She is still wanting to convince herself that supporting aegons claim is what Vissy T wanted because it makes her feel better about her choices. Alicents goal at the moment, i think, is absolution, which is why she and criston had that small dialogue just before she took a bath (along with cristons character showing remorse) Alicent is torn not goalless
Let me hold your our hand when I tell you about episode 8…
Schizo writing. This character is not the one we saw in S1.
There are dozens of examples of infighting on that writers room. People are too hyped to realize yet, but they will in time
Without Otto interfering, my guess is that young Alicent would have ended up with Daemon - but Otto used her as a pawn within his own powerplay by setting her up with Viserys, and thereby effectively enacted the Targaryen civil war known as dance of the dragons! How different history could have happened: there cleary was mutual affection between Alicent and Daemon at the tournament in the show's pilot, when he asked for her blessing and to be her champion...
I think her reaction, to the council plotting to put Aegon on the throne, was a deflection of her inner motive so she didn't appear to them as if she was behind that idea all along.
They are scared to actually write good characters because having everyone be the bad guy doesn't fit their agenda. Alicent, Rhaenerya and Rhaenys would all be much better and more compelling Character's if their weaknesses and strength were both shown, but as each episode of season 2 goes by the ruin all of these character's by forcing the Blacks to be clean cut good guys all the time when they aren't and make the Greens clear cut bad guys when they have a very good reason to act the way they do. Because they have tried to make Alicent a Jealous spiteful hypocrite and Rhaenrya the paragon of morality (even when she demands to torture children and has her husband kill people in rooms full of people) they have both in my eye's become boring and fall into the trap of the strong female character but oh wait one of them is evil so she must be a pick me.
I never thought she believed Viserys changed his mind.
He was so out of it that he didn't even call her the right name. She was just using his last words as an excuse, wanting them to mean he was talking about her Aegon.
I believe Alicent wasn't told about usurping the throne is because Otto believed that honor in her would prevail over her jealousy and hatred for Rheynera and wouldn't allow it to happen. She wanted Aegon to be the king but rightfully, not like this.
What did they do its got season 5-8 over again
hollywood is so creativily bankrupt
Alicent wants the same agency that Rhaenyra has but the show doesnt convey that well.
I mean the book is completely different😅😂😂😂