I wish I could go back to the late 70s/early 80s just to see the looks on the faces of the trailblazing genius engineers that first developed the 8 bit micros when they're told that in 45 years people will be building these in an hour on a desk in their bedroom. Long live the 6502. Great video and awesome project. Thank you.
Just found your channel and enjoying all the work you have put in in the 6502 project build. I have ordered a few PCB’s from PCBWay and looking forward to building and playing with it. You have brought back many fond memories of the days I worked with 6502 programming. Back in the 1980s I was using an Ohio Scientific Superboard II with just 8K of RAM. Many thanks and keep up the good work.
Very cool project! I started doing this sorta thing when I saw the $500 price tag too, as I felt it took it from a fun niche computer to a boutique product. It's just way more fun to hack on cheap, simple, accessible computers.
I got the board from you today and ordered the parts from Mouser. I last soldered in a 6502 back in the mid 80s working for a start-up in PDX making telemarketing machines originally out of C64s and Code-a-Phones. We eventually made our own board (but borrowed the C64 kernel) which I drew up by hand in a basement not that far from where you live. Maybe someday we can meet up at the Barley Mill and swap stories. I'm back in PDX after decades away and now live in North Portland.
Seriously, this is a project after my own heart. I'm a software guy so a lot of my projects do the minimum of hardware and the rest in software. Nice work, friend. I'm looking forward to more with this project!
very nice. i'm sure you know it by now, but if there is not enough proccess power to achieve all the features you want, the pico can be safely overclocked (and via software) to ~270Mhz. no extra cooling required, it would only consume more power. i don't know if this is going to mess up the timing for the mem chips or the IO and DMA, but if the need ever comes it's there. actually it can go beyond 270Mhz but you loose the flash access and you have to change the spi clock divider, but still doable. i'm waiting for the rest of the videos, keep up the good work.
Hey Mr @Rumbledethumps! This is amazing. I can't image the hours you have already put into this. Really appreciate you sharing this. I have ordered the boards and parts and am very exited to build this. Brings back so many memories. I do have one question. On the Pico RIA socket there are three pins at the bottom that hook up to the debug. My question is what is the other three pin horizontal header used for?
Hello, great video! I am planning to build this outstanding board. I wanted to know if it's possible to use the Pico W instead of the standard Pico. I guess it is and I was wondering if the wireless capability might add additional value to the board. Thanks!
this week I've been designing my 6502 computer in PCB form, it fits into 100x120mm and has all the pins acessible to attach modules and stuff, up to 7 misc devices in the processor's bus aswell, and I've made it really nice and curvy, hope it works irl
So why aren't you buying a Commander X16, you didn't really say, just mentioned the price and started assembling the Picocomputer. Is it because the X16 is $500? What are the differences between the X16 and and Picocomputer that make one much more expensive? What does the X16 do that the Picocomputer can't, and vice versa?
@@rog2224 The X16 uses an FPGA chip (VERA) for graphics, sound, and SD card access. Similarly, the Picocomputer uses a pair of Raspberri Pi pico boards for I/O and graphics.
I just watched the X16 videos, Andrian: cool. Then the 8bit guy's explainer video: hard to watch. I think this board is a lot more reasonable. This seems to a good starting point - I can even see a future where this board would be plugged onto some kind of a docking station with plenty of ports / slots / gizmos - and it will be capable of most of / all of what the X16 can do.
very reminicent of Bernardo's Agon where it uses a powerful ESP32 microprocessor to do the heavy lifting of handling a PS/2 keyboard protocol, VGA display output, and an audio output port - the main Zilog eZ80 CPU interacts with the ESP32 over a high speed bi-directional serial bus. So displaying graphics or driving the audio consist of sending commands to the ESP32. The ESP32 is dual core - one core is pinned to processing graphics and PS/2 and the other core is pinned to processing audio commands. Thus everything graphical and audio is achieved by writing appropriate software emulation to run on the ESP32. Nicely the ESP32 can be programmed via the Arduino IDE and a fork of the FabGL sketch. Agon developers soon find themselves wanting to do this ESP32 programking as graphics primitives and sound chip emulation is where the real action is for achieving something that has the apparent behavior of those custom chips of the early 8-bit computers such as the C64 and the Atari (or the MSX1 computers that used that TI graphics chip). The X16 uses an FPGA solution for its graphics subsystem - and may be compelled to have it be the audio processor too as the Yamaha chipmthey wanted to use is looking like will be unobtainium at the scale they need supply. The alternative to FPGA to do heavy lifting in place of proprietary custom chips is to use a powerful modern microprocessor and do all this ancillary stuff in software. I think the X16 will be able to get cost significantly down when the do the next iteration of the board design to use surface mount chips instead of mostly through-hole chips. At least cut the current pricing in half. Which would be cool to have a retro recreation computer that actually accepts game cartridges and has ports for D-pad game controllers - and achieves truly spectacular graphics and sound where much of those capabilities are even programmable from BASIC without having to use POKEs.
What customisation/upgrade options would I be able to try out? For example would ut be possible to upgrade the ram chip or perhaps add an os that could boot from a usb stick (assuming anyone actually made one) I'd be interested in tinkering with this sort ofthing and it would be something I'd like to be able to mod a bit..
The only reason to change the RAM would be to add paged memory. In which case I'd be inclined to make a Picocomputer 65816. It won't boot from USB, but you can install a ROM on the Pi Pico which will run at boot. I suppose if that ROM then loaded something from USB. Ok, I'm changing my answer, it will boot from USB.
Nice and subscribed. I was looking at your resources but didn't see gerber files for that PCB. Could you kindly post the PCB gerber files and a link? Thank you and I am looking forward to developing fsoftware for this project.
OK I looked at all the documents... and saw the Schematic.... so should I take the schematic and route it, making my own board? or are you intending to sell boards on Etsy (or something like that)
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Yeah. I'm kind of thinking about building one myself, even though I have plenty of stuff to play with so it'll probably stay in my pile of TODOs for a while. I really hope the PCB design will be available to be submitted to something like PCBway. I don't even mind paying a reasonable price for the design if that's blocking the release and can help supporting the project.
Wow, this is a cool looking project, and so easy to build! One thing I would like to know is its VGA's graphic capability and perhaps performance so that games can be programmed on it.
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The VGA part is pretty much a blank slate and work in progress as I saw. It's just a basic frame buffer at the moment, if I understood correctly, but it possible to implement sprites, collision detection and other things usually present in legacy 8 bit systems in the firmware of the VGA Pico.
How hard would it be to build a DVI version of the board? I’m considering making a surface mount version with DVI output, integrated RP2040s and a USB Hub IC.
Very interesting. I really like the concept of using the second Pico as an I/O and monitor interface (and also running the kernel as I now understood from your other video). Essentially you have created a modernish development board around the 6502 which is also a full computer. This seems to be even a good DIY project to just practice soldering on. It would be nice to order the PCB straight from a Chinese manufacturer like PCBway. That PIX interface is really clever. Eg. you can add a Pico W to create an UART modem emulation over WiFi and now Bluetooth capabilities for another HID device like keyboard or joystick. Or another Pico can be used to bridge a SID chip into the memory layout of the 6502. Really cool. Also very accessible as the Pico creates a universal cheap interfacing point with it's PIO. Out of curiosity, would it be possible to generate HDMI/DVI directly? There's a fork of PicoDVI which even supports HDMI audio, though as I see the audio is generated by the RIA Pico and not the VGA one. But I guess nothing stopping someone to make the HDMI output a secondary audio device to provide PCM or FM. The only reason I'm asking is because VGA is non existent on modern displays, and in the same sense you use USB for I/O, I think HDMI is the common denominator for video at the moment. Though yes, an adapter can bridge the gap, so it's not high priority by any means.
I was barely hanging on to your thought process ('cause I'm just uninformed, but curious), however it was interesting! I've been randomly talking in comments to Risc-V folks, trying to get something that'd play games as well on the cheap. There may be a marriage of Pico + Risc-V which makes sense? ...the Risc-V chips are absurdly inexpensive and can be included in designs with abandon right now *c:*
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@@lafemmedevastation I think if you want to create a cheap video game console for RISC-V you can use something like the ESP32-C3 and combine that with a Pico to output VGA. There is even the ESP32-S3 which has USB Host functionality. But that's going to be a different design, you have to create an alternate bus, as the ESP doesn't have an equivalent for the Pico's PIO.
@ very intriguing! I think all of this is fascinating, 'cause the normal enthusiast has been sorta "locked out" of doing anything meaningful for so long (either from licensing, costs, or both), and now it's all just a matter of expertise and imagination to create most things we could dream up. Thanks for this thought experiment! I'm going to take note of it, and see if there might be some sort of versatile bus that could _generally_ bring ESP32-** and Pico** together without too much pain, heh *c:*
@ The PIO is indeed unique, but ESP32s are very capable of VGA output themselves and the ESP32-S3 is a RISC-V part if you want to cover all the bases at once. I had some of the first ESP32s to hit American shores and my idea back in 2016 was to pair an ESP32 with a Bridgetek BT811 or BT813 EVE (Embedded Video Engine). SPI is more than adequate for fast inter-IC communications if you need to involve more than one chip.
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@@Peter_S_ sure you can bit bang stuff on the ESP32, but the PIO gives an easier path to handle timing critical bus communication / signal generation. That fact it gives you 4 separately running very specific threads/cores which you can fine-tune to be as time constrained as possible helps a lot decoupling your high level code. Of course if handcrafting RISC-V assembly to do the same is your thing, nobody is going to stop you :)
I want to use a pico as a USB driver in 6502 circuit that I have but probably it would damage connecting directly, on the web I found soltutions that use buffers 74ls245 but this is more complex and expensive. :(
Looks like a very interesting project 👍 (if you've ever experienced some type of 6502 machine, at least - sadly, I missed that time period 😄...). But (as usually 🙄...) the question that occupies me most is something completely tangential to the purpose of the video: What is the device that you're using as a monitor here? It looks way less clunky than the usual mini LCD monitors (*ahem* the various 'Raspberry Pi' monitors with their rather _enormous_ bezels...), and that at a decent size and resolution (looks like at least 10 inches 4:3, and a good step above 640x480...)
Having made my 6502 designs with PCBs, it does get very expensive. That's without factoring my time which would, if costed, push my projects out of reach price wise. So good thing that I don't pay myself 😋. As such, I completely understand why the X16 cannot be made for $50. Even before coivd, that was not feasible in my opinion. On top of that, they decided not to use CPLDs/GALs for glue logic, which means that making a mistake in the glue logic means a PCB redo. A deliberate design choice and I understand why, but costly if you balls the design up (which we all do).
the first board versions of the X16 were never going to be $50, they have said that numerous times at the begining, i don't know why ppl still complain about that. of course they thought the cost would have been closer to $300 but all the various problems brought it up to $500. the $50 price was only if they were able to condess everything to an fpga, but only after and if the first boards succeeded commercially. yeah, i was exited too but $500 is very expensive for something like that. but then again it's mostly a hobby and hobbies do burn money.
I've had a 6502 computer way back in 1985. In all honesty I can not see myself going back to an 8bit platform, it was fun but it's more limiting than I would like. Yet there's the MEGA65 project that takes advantage of a 65816 which I fund is a great alternative. I do prefer the Amiga platform for retro computing and that one now earns the pistorm treatment giving it 1000x the cpu performance. It's not just the performance that is great but the ability to use latest device connectivity or at least open up the box. The X16 for me would be a waste of time on a DOA type 6502 8bit platform. There's others like that with high sticker prices for a useless platform. If the goal is the 8bit experience, Atari 800xl 130xe or Commodore 64 128 should do the trick. Again for me no reason to reinvent the 8bit computer.
I am sure I missed something, but why are there two 3 pin headers under the Pico? And with the Pico sitting on top, I don't see how they would ever be used. I have not seen ALL of your videos, so maybe the secret is someplace else? Thank you for Everything!
The clickbait is strong in this one, but I'm probably thinking the same to be honest. It looks excellent though if you're looking to do anything interesting with it , chances are you're probably also in the category of wanting to build it your own anyway. Inevitably that's what becomes of all these kinds of projects.
The point of the X16 is to make retro computing more accessible for first-time buyers. While it is nice to build your own machine that emulates a retro computer the main draw for the X16 is that it is pre-built so users don't have to worry about soldering if they're inexperienced. The X16 also features quite a few real parts that have been sourced so I don't foresee the project going much further than it has already without some major design and part changes to accommodate the lack of supply for these parts. Unfortunately as time goes on this is looking more and more like the best option to keep retro computing alive regardless of the accessibility concerns of having to hand-build something like this.
I suspect that the X16 is just a fun project for a few CZcamsrs. It doesn't really need to have a point. Like the Pico computer in this video... Is it fun? Yes. Are people going to use it in a world where Raspberry Pis exist? No...
The thing is, its not about the computer. Cx16 has people building a full emulator for it, producing software and games etc etc. This and for example Agon light is a great little platform, but contentwise its miles behind the cx16 and thats even before the hardware is out.
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For me as a programmer personally this project is more interesting. The Pi Pico is a great basis for the whole project as it's available in quantity for cheap, surprisingly capable and has a great SDK and community around it, married with the 6502 it combines the two platforms in an interesting way. It's also lot less hardwired in the sense that basically everything extra around the 6502 is done in firmware supervised by the Pico and it only uses the 6502 as a co-processor essentially. This is why the PCB design dead simple. While on the X16 still the 6502 controls everything in a hardware centric way with only the Vera being the sidecar. The X16 is also more fixated to the idea of making a "childhood dream Commodore with more horsepower" down to using the very kernel on steroids, while this aims being a more generic base computer which you can hack/extend in whatever direction you want. The PIX bus is really clever imho. I'm standing by my statement that this essentially creates a modern devboard around the 6502 like if it would be a micro controller; you can easily discard the kernel part of the firmware and write something else on the whole thing. I don't know how compatible this 6502 variant with Commodore programs, but I can imagine someone coming up with a C64 compatibility layer running on the Pico (or additional Picos, as nothing stopping you adding more) which emulates most of the C64 hardware (CIA/VIA/VIC/SID/Disk) and let the 6502 run original programs. Though I haven't looked into details, but I think something along the lines is possible if memory mapping is not in the way.
I've been looking for a project like this, RC2014 is a bit out of my price range but this I could probably make work. I might have all the capacitors and resistors and diodes and such already, too. Maybe a couple of the ICs to salvage from busted equipment, but that's a little bit of a longshot.
Building your own retro computer is much more fun, the journey is more fun than the destination IMO. Edit/ I build couple system in past decade like this, with micro controller replacing the hardware around. I build them all on strip board pcb's, is fun, doesn't cost much, and you don't need ROM or RAM chips.
When David first mentioned the X16 I was very interested. I was a 70's-80's kid. I had, and still have, an Amstrad CPC 464 and 6128. I first started programming BASIC on a friend's TRS-80 computer. So I still have thr memory and nostalgia for these computers. The X16 at $50 was a pipedream. I suspected the price would likely be nearer $150-$200 once on sale. At that price. I would likely still have been interested enough to buy one to play with. At $500 it is in the realms of serious Retro, Console and low to mid PC computing. Gone from a 'fun' nostalgia trip. They are also buying machines to build a lot of the machine 'in house'. Seems daft to me unless they plan to sell tens of thousands of them. Especially considering David put out a video recently explaining he is moving away from selling his games in physical format due to costs. I won't be buying an X16. Looks like a fun little computer. But considering I can buy an Original C64 as well as one or two more original classic home computers for the same sort of price. I'd rather have a classic original which will only appreciate in value at a quicker rate.
Ok, let's see if i can debunk the 50 Dollar myth. First and foremost, the first video of David he mentioned that a computer less powerfull than a raspberry pi shouldn't cost more than a raspberry pi. That was the only mention he did. For that he planned 3 stages. First stage: Full motherboard with all the off-the-shelf components. Back then he thought that this would cost around US 250 for developers and early adopters only. Then the Pandemic happened. Then the shortage of components happened, plus inflation too. Manufacture cost went up too... now true, the first 100 punched boards were donated by PCBWay, but still the costs were too high, compared with the initial estimate. That explain the US 500 they asked for the people that buyed the first 75 boards (plus keyboard, mouse, one developer bread board and a pico-atx power supply). Yup, they are sold out right now. Second stage: Smaller board, with no expansion capacity and convert the multiple chips of the dev boards into ASIC's. More oriented to Videogames, but still the same mechine. David hasn't mentioned the cost, but should be way less than the original DEV boards, according to one of his lastest videos. Third Stage: The RPI form factor card. Everything goes into an ASIC. Non-upgradeable parts and no expansion ports. This is the final design that is expected to have the lower cost of all of them. And in case you people missed it. There was a Commander X8 in a Card factor, but with only 64KB RAM+ 64KB Video (if memory serves). David showcase it in one of its videos, and asked the community if they wanted the Card formatted machine during the pandemic time. The community didn't wanted it. So the original plan continues. Sorry for hijaking this, i think that is pretty cool to have alternatives and have people working on their own dream machines, but there's a lot of lies and disinformation about the Commander X16 project. (Granted, David wasn't really clear about the pricing, but people read too much between lines and that's just not the way older geeks works.)
That board is Wicked Awesome Cool. Exactly what I've been looking for. Your Picocomputer project is coming along very nicely. Yes, I'm interested. I have an Agon Light 2 and if the X16 becomes available at a lower price I may purchase one of them. However, I have a bunch of Pico's just waiting for a project to really push their capabilities and you're board has REAL 6502, with no SMD's that these old eyes can't see. 🙂
If I had even a hint of nostalgia for the Z80 then I'd buy an Argon Lite. Very practical and reasonably priced (even when it was $100). But I took the MOS -> Motorola -> Intel journey.
Nice build, can't say I've seen this one before. Also can't say I'm a fan of permanent builds on plug in proto breadboards, the good old veroboard rules here.
@@rumbledethumpsneeded to use a USB 2.0 card reader, I assume that it isn’t usb 3.0 compatible. My mouse works OK but the keyboard not so much. I am not worried: it’s a journey, not a destination. I used a C64 in my youth. That was a mystery when I got it too
I don't get why the hate on this video. Excellent job. I hope you can sell some ready made boards one day for those of us who don't have the tools to make our own.
heads up, that super long disclaimer that you wrote and put in the closed captioning at the beginning of the video does not show in full. you may want to put it somewhere else if you actually want people to read it
I just looked at the captions and don't see what you mean. Not sure what I said would be considered a disclaimer. Can you give me a few words of the captioning that doesn't look right so I can search for it?
@@rumbledethumps just checked my settings, and it seemed it popped up as a result of autotranslate captions trying to translate to english for some weird reason. the way it was formatted and only appeared for a few seconds looked like a disclaimer rather than captions, but reading through it again, it appears that autotranslating from english to english in the captions seems to put them all at the beginning of the video. my apologies for the mix-up
It's always disappointing when people do that "Commander X16 was supposed to be $50 but it's $500" thing without context. It probably drives engagement (like the title - EDIT: two days later, the title has changed to an accurate description of the video), but the truth is much more boring: The first boards were never going to be cheap, but they want to cost-reduce it over time. Next batch should be $350, and if they get their way future generations will drop down much lower. But this system, while far different (especially in its software environment), is interesting and has the benefit of being cheap and available today. Thanks for sharing!
Well it's also disappointing when context changes to suit the situation. Reality is harder to face than the fantasy in that case. But reality is things change and doing something about it if you can't afford the new system is not a negative response. So the context here that is being missed. Some people can't afford even 200 dollars and want a cheaper computer so building one you can afford is a perfectly viable solution -- also not an attack to say the context changed. He did state 50 dollars in his original video as a gross estimate it's not a thing that didn't happen. some people followed the development with that context in mind and David did not correct them for a long time. So I think that's where all the confusion is coming from.
@@lindoran There's no need to become defensive. I haven't attacked anyone, and have in fact expressed an interest in what he's built. There are nice options with varying types of "retro" computing at many price points now, and that's a good thing. But I'm not a fan of clickbait or misinformation (or misinformed people repeating wrong information).
@@jc33353 I didn't say you attacked him, I think you misunderstood, what I was saying is that it's not click bait to use the words "why I'm not buying a commander x16." If you then go ahead and show why. It's also true that he said he would like to see a price of 50 dollars and then (likely because of an over site let's be honest) did not correct people until much later. I agree both projects are great! All the confusion is coming from the fact David said he'd like it to be 50 dollars then people followed it based on that context and were confused when he clarified. That's a different thing. He's still entitled to that opinion even though David clarified, and the reason is he was initially vague. Just because he apologized and corrected himself doesn't change the initial statement or the consequence of it. So I guess I just was trying to explain how people came do believe it an why that's a valid feeling is all.
We'll see. I'm quite skeptical that the Commander X16 will ever become affordable. It seems to me the reason you can reduce costs is being able to take your revenue from the first iteration, and put it into a 2nd gen re-design where you can cost-reduce it somehow. But if you don't get the sales for Gen1, you don't have the cash to make Gen2. I can put down plans for reducing costs too, but in the end they're just plans. There's several other better designed Retro computers available today that are 1/10 of the price of the X16. The whole thing is sort of interesting, since it seems like it's a bit of a repeat of the late 70s, early 80s. On price too. Apple computers were always far far more expensive than the Commodore ones, but Commodore was the one to crack the nut on price, so they became far more popular than the Apple 8-bit machines. I halfway expect the same thing to happen again, just at a much smaller scale.
The X16 emulator is free. You need some tools to build your own computer, and what software is there for it? Later versions of the X16 will be less. (If It ever gets produced. Might be better to just Mister it.)
Most of us want a MiSTer version. It's more about "who has the skills?" at this point. So far, no one with strong FPGA skills has stepped up to say "I'll give it a go."
I built this (my veroboard beast is in this video) because it is simple and yet elegant in the way the RIA is a memory mapped I/O device that provides similar capabilities to peripheral interfaces in "old" systems. Things actually run on the 65C02, I'm having great fun - even at this early stage of development - writing some graphics editors in C and learning 6502 ASM to squeeze extra performance out. I'm an old time Z80 guy having written lots of commercial and hobby code in Z80 ASM when it was the raging thing. I won't be buying an X16 because I think it's a frankenstein designed by a committee and it meets almost none of the initial project goals. This thing is cheap and elegant and it exists... I have a large collection of old systems, I like building and I like ASM and I see a lot of versatility in this design which will keep me amused until the next shiny thing comes along.
No one is forcing people to buy the Commander x16 and if you were being honest, you would have mentioned that the initial price is high to cover costs they encountered during the project. The price will come down for late adopters. Home brew 6502 computer boards were readily available before the Commander x16 as well d isn’t solely what the project is about.
Commander X16 is well priced outside of my budget even at half the price. Instead I built a couple of Z80-MBC2 boards and added an ESP32 for vga and keyboard. It has limitations because of it being a VT terminal, but you can run CP/M, pascal and do graphics with it. All in I'm about $50 for that kit. I'll be watching this project closely as it might be my next build. One of the biggest limitations has been the lack of an extra serial port for connecting it to the outside world. I'm guessing this machine won't have those limitations?
The Picocomputer has one UART intended for connecting to a big PC for cross development. There's a 6522 with 16(+4) GPIOs you can use to connect with the outside world. And, of course, the S in USB is for "serial", but that's probably not what you meant.
for the X16, I became less interested because of the FPGA. Felt like that in many ways killed the spirit of a retro computer by providing it more advanced abilities. Might as well throw the CPU into the FPGA and call it done.
On the other hand its a $4-5 part. If you replaced them with a 6545 and some kind of ROM and IO chip you'd have less functionality at a greater cost and no real practical advantage other than massively increased complexity and some notion of "purity".
I have never understood why someone would want to spend $500 on a new 6502 based computer. Surely the same thing could be written in code to run on modern hardware. I totally understand why people want original hardware for running old games and software. Failing that FGPA based systems are better than emulators. But a completely new system with very little software available - no! Building your own Picocomputer - totally get it. Nice video.
I think the x16 got hit with wild scope creep, and they wanted to do too much of the manufacturing internally which is just not cost effective at the volume they are likely to do. It does look like pretty much the ultimate computer based on this level of tech, but it's just way too expensive.
@@annieworroll4373 Pretty sure the X16 is just a bit of fun. People are taking it waaaaay too seriously. Whether it's $50 or $500 is pretty irrelevant.
everything using a esp32, rp2040 or a raspberry for graphics (or anything else) doesn't feel right in context of retro computing - it's like cheating, imho. FPGAs and CPLDs are tolerable because they are real hardware, so to speak.
TBH - that's why I don't think you can build a "new" retro computer. The C64 was the best you could get in 1982. Either work with that hardware, or accept that these days the equivalent is the PS5.
@@davidlloyd1526 That's not true. Of course you can't develop ASICs for new graphics chips or clone old video controllers as ASICs like the VIC but you can use FPGAs or CPLDs for creating new graphics controllers - or you can synthesize old retro chips. Analog Pocket (or Mister project) does exactly this, they are creating FPGA cores that resemble the original hardware as much as possible and it's not a software emulation but a translation of the original hardware into a hardware description language like Verilog or VHDL. X16 uses a FPGA for the Vera which is, imho, the correct way for a retro system if you want to be able to manucature numerous systems without the risk of running into shortage of obsolete graphics controllers. Imho software emulation with a multi-hundred-MHz-CPU anywhere used in a retro computer design isn't the real deal. But of course it's only my oppinion and nobody has to agree with it.
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Imho this project is not really retro computing, it's just feels like it as it has a native 6502 CPU. It has completely different kernel, GPU, I/O management, storage, etc. It doesn't try to emulate any existing retro computer. It's a new computer running 6502 code which can leverage high level services supplied by the ARM core and the other PIX devices accessible on the bus. This is a hybrid system, and the 6502 has a concrete API to the ARM side and vice-versa.
@@davidlloyd1526 PALs and GALs (and HALs) were standard parts in the early 1980s and I can make plenty of "new" retrocomputing around them today. Not practical for complex sprites (unless you enjoy masochism), but practical for almost everything else including simple sprites.
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@@punpck hardware emulation is software was even part of the 80s home computer era. Just remember the flawed 6522 VIA chip which caused Commodore to bit-bang the serial bus in software for the 1541 disk drive. :)
Nice project... but please change the title of this video to something that reflects the content. Myself, and probably others would still like to know why you are not buying an X16.
because this exists, is cheap and versatile and meets the needs of the average person wanting an "old" 6502 system for learning/playing/experimenting. At least that's why I built it (mine is in the video).
the X16 had a big dose of feature creep and with it came a significant increase in price. That said, the expansion slots of the V1 boards do appeal to me, since making my own expansion card sounds cool. This computer, though, certainly has it beat on affordability Since this is the first I've seen of it, I'm not sure what capabilities it actually has comparatively..
I commented on the 8 bit guys video where he looked like a nervous ceo at a press conference trying to justify (and at the same time still try to do his sales pitch) the x16. It was a cringefest of stammering and diversionary doubletalk that would make most politicians blush. Ive been a fan of his channels for over 5 years but as soon as i saw how his original vision of a cheap hobby pc turned into a collab with Retro Recipies and case moulds being sourced i knew the project had snowballed far away from the original vision. I of course got slammed into the comments basement over there because the lemming fan boys got all tribal and couldnt have a constructive conversation about it. I disagree with some of your commenters saying you should change your title to be more honest. You are a small channel and using a bit clickbaity title is absolutely the right choice. I am a bit disappointed that aside from the cost you didnt really go in depth on why you arent buying the x16 but we can easily infer that the price and lack of diy fun are your main reasons. But good on ya... this is a slick project and you earned a sub from me. Without the title i probably wouldnt have watched... thus proving that clickbait titles do work. And thats why ppl stil use them @roman kubalov
Hi a few people mention click bait titles There is click bait lies - ad what you get is nothing like what the click bait promises But this one is 100% accurate he is talking about why ** COST ** and showed how you can diy it for 10 cents in the dollar I am not going to buy a Commander X16, for the money i can get a new I7 laptop For a project hobby system, i will live with emulation ( i often use Vmac for classic mac, Sheep Shaver for PPC Apple Mac, Vice for C64 and similar , WinUAE for amiga - that cover the most popular ) , the Raspbery Pi 3 & 4 that i have plus the pi2zerow I would give this a go but my soldering skills is limited to audio speaker wires and if i am lucky a cr2032 battery terminal post :( I wont bash the Commander X16 - it has a lot of time and effort put in top it, but it is x10 the promised price ( 2x 3x 4x i can live with ) but for me it is to expensive for a hobby toy
I am so tired of this hate... And not even hate... Like "I don't have any popularity yet so let me just use popularity of others to get at least some attention". 7 billions of people on the Earth don't buy X16 because they don't need it and they have something instead. There is also Ben Eater who put a much more effort to show us how to build homebrew computer NEVER comparing with others. Stop this. Find your own way. I won't even look at details of something that tries to speculate on this stuff.
The “X16 is $500” comment is super misleading and lacks literally all the context. It’s not that simple, nor is it intended to stay $500. Kinda shitty clickbaiting, honestly.
Yeah. For context it's going to be cheaper when there's no through hole parts, no 6502, no expandability, just an FPGA with a 6502 core added to the firmware. Oh and that version is planned to be $350.
I wish I could go back to the late 70s/early 80s just to see the looks on the faces of the trailblazing genius engineers that first developed the 8 bit micros when they're told that in 45 years people will be building these in an hour on a desk in their bedroom. Long live the 6502. Great video and awesome project. Thank you.
Lovely result. Makes me yearn for the time I got my first home micro in kit form, an Acorn Atom. Well done.
I'd be interested in a PCB if you're either selling them or the Gerber file is available. Excellent work!
Just found your channel and enjoying all the work you have put in in the 6502 project build. I have ordered a few PCB’s from PCBWay and looking forward to building and playing with it. You have brought back many fond memories of the days I worked with 6502 programming. Back in the 1980s I was using an Ohio Scientific Superboard II with just 8K of RAM. Many thanks and keep up the good work.
Very cool project! I started doing this sorta thing when I saw the $500 price tag too, as I felt it took it from a fun niche computer to a boutique product. It's just way more fun to hack on cheap, simple, accessible computers.
I got the board from you today and ordered the parts from Mouser. I last soldered in a 6502 back in the mid 80s working for a start-up in PDX making telemarketing machines originally out of C64s and Code-a-Phones. We eventually made our own board (but borrowed the C64 kernel) which I drew up by hand in a basement not that far from where you live. Maybe someday we can meet up at the Barley Mill and swap stories. I'm back in PDX after decades away and now live in North Portland.
If it were for sale I'd build it. Seems like a fun project. The more interesting part would be learning to use it and see what it can do.
Wow. Such elegance. So little drama.
Seriously, this is a project after my own heart. I'm a software guy so a lot of my projects do the minimum of hardware and the rest in software. Nice work, friend. I'm looking forward to more with this project!
I love the "frost scraper" technique for turning the board over. Very minimalizt!
It actually looks like a spackling tool, they are flatter than frost scrapers.
Yes, spackling. A piece of cardboard works too.
Love it, so happy I found this project. If I can figure it out I would add a SID chip and make a standalone hardware sid player
Would love to buy!!! Take my money!
The wire runs on your breadboard are clean. Well done
What are the two 3pin connectors under the second Pico used for?
very nice. i'm sure you know it by now, but if there is not enough proccess power to achieve all the features you want, the pico can be safely overclocked (and via software) to ~270Mhz. no extra cooling required, it would only consume more power. i don't know if this is going to mess up the timing for the mem chips or the IO and DMA, but if the need ever comes it's there. actually it can go beyond 270Mhz but you loose the flash access and you have to change the spi clock divider, but still doable. i'm waiting for the rest of the videos, keep up the good work.
Your soldering skill is truly pro level
Editing magic makes anyone look fast.
@@rumbledethumps yup ... and even so, rather neat & tidy solder points
Hey Mr @Rumbledethumps! This is amazing. I can't image the hours you have already put into this. Really appreciate you sharing this. I have ordered the boards and parts and am very exited to build this. Brings back so many memories. I do have one question. On the Pico RIA socket there are three pins at the bottom that hook up to the debug. My question is what is the other three pin horizontal header used for?
Nothing, yet.
@@rumbledethumps Thank you kindly sir! Look forward to what ever you do next.
Very cool project. Congratulations! When I have a time i will try build one.
I was confused at how the Pico's dont fry their pins connected to the cpu. Finally I realized the cpu itself is running on 3.3vdc as well. Nice!
Very cool. I'll have to try my hand at building one when I get some spare time.
👏Woohoo, fantastic. Congratulations on taking it this far. That is one tidy board.
Pretty awesome design to put all the non IC components in a group like that.
Hello, great video! I am planning to build this outstanding board. I wanted to know if it's possible to use the Pico W instead of the standard Pico. I guess it is and I was wondering if the wireless capability might add additional value to the board.
Thanks!
this week I've been designing my 6502 computer in PCB form, it fits into 100x120mm and has all the pins acessible to attach modules and stuff, up to 7 misc devices in the processor's bus aswell, and I've made it really nice and curvy, hope it works irl
So why aren't you buying a Commander X16, you didn't really say, just mentioned the price and started assembling the Picocomputer. Is it because the X16 is $500? What are the differences between the X16 and and Picocomputer that make one much more expensive? What does the X16 do that the Picocomputer can't, and vice versa?
Isn't there an a FPGA on the X16?
This is a way to advertise in the tail of a better known product.
@@rog2224 The X16 uses an FPGA chip (VERA) for graphics, sound, and SD card access. Similarly, the Picocomputer uses a pair of Raspberri Pi pico boards for I/O and graphics.
Yes, it's mainly the $500 price that's turned me off. More people can participate in the hobby when the price is lower.
@krzbrew - that is a stretch i think
What solder are you using? How is there no smoke? Thanks for this video!
It's not the solder, it's a fan.
I just watched the X16 videos, Andrian: cool. Then the 8bit guy's explainer video: hard to watch. I think this board is a lot more reasonable. This seems to a good starting point - I can even see a future where this board would be plugged onto some kind of a docking station with plenty of ports / slots / gizmos - and it will be capable of most of / all of what the X16 can do.
Fantastic video serie
where can I buy the circuit board?
very reminicent of Bernardo's Agon where it uses a powerful ESP32 microprocessor to do the heavy lifting of handling a PS/2 keyboard protocol, VGA display output, and an audio output port - the main Zilog eZ80 CPU interacts with the ESP32 over a high speed bi-directional serial bus.
So displaying graphics or driving the audio consist of sending commands to the ESP32. The ESP32 is dual core - one core is pinned to processing graphics and PS/2 and the other core is pinned to processing audio commands. Thus everything graphical and audio is achieved by writing appropriate software emulation to run on the ESP32. Nicely the ESP32 can be programmed via the Arduino IDE and a fork of the FabGL sketch.
Agon developers soon find themselves wanting to do this ESP32 programking as graphics primitives and sound chip emulation is where the real action is for achieving something that has the apparent behavior of those custom chips of the early 8-bit computers such as the C64 and the Atari (or the MSX1 computers that used that TI graphics chip).
The X16 uses an FPGA solution for its graphics subsystem - and may be compelled to have it be the audio processor too as the Yamaha chipmthey wanted to use is looking like will be unobtainium at the scale they need supply.
The alternative to FPGA to do heavy lifting in place of proprietary custom chips is to use a powerful modern microprocessor and do all this ancillary stuff in software.
I think the X16 will be able to get cost significantly down when the do the next iteration of the board design to use surface mount chips instead of mostly through-hole chips. At least cut the current pricing in half. Which would be cool to have a retro recreation computer that actually accepts game cartridges and has ports for D-pad game controllers - and achieves truly spectacular graphics and sound where much of those capabilities are even programmable from BASIC without having to use POKEs.
Any chance of the gerber pls?
What customisation/upgrade options would I be able to try out? For example would ut be possible to upgrade the ram chip or perhaps add an os that could boot from a usb stick (assuming anyone actually made one) I'd be interested in tinkering with this sort ofthing and it would be something I'd like to be able to mod a bit..
The only reason to change the RAM would be to add paged memory. In which case I'd be inclined to make a Picocomputer 65816. It won't boot from USB, but you can install a ROM on the Pi Pico which will run at boot. I suppose if that ROM then loaded something from USB. Ok, I'm changing my answer, it will boot from USB.
Nice and subscribed. I was looking at your resources but didn't see gerber files for that PCB. Could you kindly post the PCB gerber files and a link? Thank you and I am looking forward to developing fsoftware for this project.
Amazing project!! any gerber files ?!:)
Pretty cool, I’ve been watching the progress. Interesting hybrid design.
Awww, I liked the old title better
OK I looked at all the documents... and saw the Schematic.... so should I take the schematic and route it, making my own board? or are you intending to sell boards on Etsy (or something like that)
Yeah. I'm kind of thinking about building one myself, even though I have plenty of stuff to play with so it'll probably stay in my pile of TODOs for a while. I really hope the PCB design will be available to be submitted to something like PCBway. I don't even mind paying a reasonable price for the design if that's blocking the release and can help supporting the project.
Wow, this is a cool looking project, and so easy to build! One thing I would like to know is its VGA's graphic capability and perhaps performance so that games can be programmed on it.
The VGA part is pretty much a blank slate and work in progress as I saw. It's just a basic frame buffer at the moment, if I understood correctly, but it possible to implement sprites, collision detection and other things usually present in legacy 8 bit systems in the firmware of the VGA Pico.
How hard would it be to build a DVI version of the board? I’m considering making a surface mount version with DVI output, integrated RP2040s and a USB Hub IC.
The only way to find out is to do the work.
Very interesting. I really like the concept of using the second Pico as an I/O and monitor interface (and also running the kernel as I now understood from your other video). Essentially you have created a modernish development board around the 6502 which is also a full computer. This seems to be even a good DIY project to just practice soldering on. It would be nice to order the PCB straight from a Chinese manufacturer like PCBway.
That PIX interface is really clever. Eg. you can add a Pico W to create an UART modem emulation over WiFi and now Bluetooth capabilities for another HID device like keyboard or joystick. Or another Pico can be used to bridge a SID chip into the memory layout of the 6502. Really cool. Also very accessible as the Pico creates a universal cheap interfacing point with it's PIO.
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to generate HDMI/DVI directly? There's a fork of PicoDVI which even supports HDMI audio, though as I see the audio is generated by the RIA Pico and not the VGA one. But I guess nothing stopping someone to make the HDMI output a secondary audio device to provide PCM or FM. The only reason I'm asking is because VGA is non existent on modern displays, and in the same sense you use USB for I/O, I think HDMI is the common denominator for video at the moment. Though yes, an adapter can bridge the gap, so it's not high priority by any means.
I was barely hanging on to your thought process ('cause I'm just uninformed, but curious), however it was interesting! I've been randomly talking in comments to Risc-V folks, trying to get something that'd play games as well on the cheap. There may be a marriage of Pico + Risc-V which makes sense? ...the Risc-V chips are absurdly inexpensive and can be included in designs with abandon right now *c:*
@@lafemmedevastation I think if you want to create a cheap video game console for RISC-V you can use something like the ESP32-C3 and combine that with a Pico to output VGA. There is even the ESP32-S3 which has USB Host functionality. But that's going to be a different design, you have to create an alternate bus, as the ESP doesn't have an equivalent for the Pico's PIO.
@ very intriguing! I think all of this is fascinating, 'cause the normal enthusiast has been sorta "locked out" of doing anything meaningful for so long (either from licensing, costs, or both), and now it's all just a matter of expertise and imagination to create most things we could dream up. Thanks for this thought experiment! I'm going to take note of it, and see if there might be some sort of versatile bus that could _generally_ bring ESP32-** and Pico** together without too much pain, heh *c:*
@ The PIO is indeed unique, but ESP32s are very capable of VGA output themselves and the ESP32-S3 is a RISC-V part if you want to cover all the bases at once. I had some of the first ESP32s to hit American shores and my idea back in 2016 was to pair an ESP32 with a Bridgetek BT811 or BT813 EVE (Embedded Video Engine). SPI is more than adequate for fast inter-IC communications if you need to involve more than one chip.
@@Peter_S_ sure you can bit bang stuff on the ESP32, but the PIO gives an easier path to handle timing critical bus communication / signal generation. That fact it gives you 4 separately running very specific threads/cores which you can fine-tune to be as time constrained as possible helps a lot decoupling your high level code. Of course if handcrafting RISC-V assembly to do the same is your thing, nobody is going to stop you :)
Great work!!! I am another here who would be interested in a bare board.
picocomputer.github.io/hardware.html
Thank you. I found that, right after I posted my reply.
I want to use a pico as a USB driver in 6502 circuit that I have but probably it would damage connecting directly, on the web I found soltutions that use buffers 74ls245 but this is more complex and expensive. :(
Sorry I forgot the question, is it possible to connect directly?
I plan to make a board. I see two PADs on the print. Do I need to close one ? Best regards
I don't know what this means but the gerbers have been made by multiple factories. If your factory rejects it, I need the info they sent you.
Did you used 2 pico, one for vga and other for peripheral control?? If thats the case then you should have used shift registers to control peripherals
The Neo6502 is how you describe. Last I looked they hadn't figured out the PIO for that and were still bit banging the 6502.
Could you please post a link to the forums that contain posting from the other boards you showed at @0:57?
github.com/orgs/picocomputer/discussions/categories/show-and-tell
Cool project. Awesome
Are you planning to release gerber files?
Yes, I hope soon.
Where did you buy the VGA to HDMI adapter that doesn't need external power?
It's powered from +5V on pin 9 of the VGA port. Check that you have that first.
@@rumbledethumps Thanks.
Hi buddy I have a doubt, I'm not sure what you did to make pico and ttl lvl compatibles. Do you have a related video for this topic?
What are the capabilities of this build? Graphics.. sound? I say dont stop here...
How do I order the blank PCB or the assembled board from PCBWay?
Start with the documentation. picocomputer.github.io/hardware.html
Looks like a very interesting project 👍 (if you've ever experienced some type of 6502 machine, at least - sadly, I missed that time period 😄...). But (as usually 🙄...) the question that occupies me most is something completely tangential to the purpose of the video: What is the device that you're using as a monitor here? It looks way less clunky than the usual mini LCD monitors (*ahem* the various 'Raspberry Pi' monitors with their rather _enormous_ bezels...), and that at a decent size and resolution (looks like at least 10 inches 4:3, and a good step above 640x480...)
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P8ZCJCG
@@rumbledethumps too bad it seems to be EOL. :(
this isnt specific to your video but why would you need eye protection for soldering? is it just bc of youtube?
I thought it was a sarcastic joke, since whenever someone isn’t up to safety 100% there will be a lot of comments about it.
Having made my 6502 designs with PCBs, it does get very expensive. That's without factoring my time which would, if costed, push my projects out of reach price wise. So good thing that I don't pay myself 😋. As such, I completely understand why the X16 cannot be made for $50. Even before coivd, that was not feasible in my opinion. On top of that, they decided not to use CPLDs/GALs for glue logic, which means that making a mistake in the glue logic means a PCB redo. A deliberate design choice and I understand why, but costly if you balls the design up (which we all do).
the first board versions of the X16 were never going to be $50, they have said that numerous times at the begining, i don't know why ppl still complain about that. of course they thought the cost would have been closer to $300 but all the various problems brought it up to $500. the $50 price was only if they were able to condess everything to an fpga, but only after and if the first boards succeeded commercially. yeah, i was exited too but $500 is very expensive for something like that. but then again it's mostly a hobby and hobbies do burn money.
I've had a 6502 computer way back in 1985. In all honesty I can not see myself going back to an 8bit platform, it was fun but it's more limiting than I would like. Yet there's the MEGA65 project that takes advantage of a 65816 which I fund is a great alternative. I do prefer the Amiga platform for retro computing and that one now earns the pistorm treatment giving it 1000x the cpu performance. It's not just the performance that is great but the ability to use latest device connectivity or at least open up the box. The X16 for me would be a waste of time on a DOA type 6502 8bit platform. There's others like that with high sticker prices for a useless platform. If the goal is the 8bit experience, Atari 800xl 130xe or Commodore 64 128 should do the trick. Again for me no reason to reinvent the 8bit computer.
Only the third version of the X16 is supposed to be under $100; still great video 👍🖖🙂
I am sure I missed something, but why are there two 3 pin headers under the Pico? And with the Pico sitting on top, I don't see how they would ever be used. I have not seen ALL of your videos, so maybe the secret is someplace else? Thank you for Everything!
The clickbait is strong in this one, but I'm probably thinking the same to be honest. It looks excellent though if you're looking to do anything interesting with it , chances are you're probably also in the category of wanting to build it your own anyway. Inevitably that's what becomes of all these kinds of projects.
Takes me back to high school
The point of the X16 is to make retro computing more accessible for first-time buyers. While it is nice to build your own machine that emulates a retro computer the main draw for the X16 is that it is pre-built so users don't have to worry about soldering if they're inexperienced. The X16 also features quite a few real parts that have been sourced so I don't foresee the project going much further than it has already without some major design and part changes to accommodate the lack of supply for these parts. Unfortunately as time goes on this is looking more and more like the best option to keep retro computing alive regardless of the accessibility concerns of having to hand-build something like this.
I suspect that the X16 is just a fun project for a few CZcamsrs. It doesn't really need to have a point. Like the Pico computer in this video... Is it fun? Yes. Are people going to use it in a world where Raspberry Pis exist? No...
The thing is, its not about the computer. Cx16 has people building a full emulator for it, producing software and games etc etc. This and for example Agon light is a great little platform, but contentwise its miles behind the cx16 and thats even before the hardware is out.
For me as a programmer personally this project is more interesting. The Pi Pico is a great basis for the whole project as it's available in quantity for cheap, surprisingly capable and has a great SDK and community around it, married with the 6502 it combines the two platforms in an interesting way. It's also lot less hardwired in the sense that basically everything extra around the 6502 is done in firmware supervised by the Pico and it only uses the 6502 as a co-processor essentially. This is why the PCB design dead simple. While on the X16 still the 6502 controls everything in a hardware centric way with only the Vera being the sidecar. The X16 is also more fixated to the idea of making a "childhood dream Commodore with more horsepower" down to using the very kernel on steroids, while this aims being a more generic base computer which you can hack/extend in whatever direction you want. The PIX bus is really clever imho.
I'm standing by my statement that this essentially creates a modern devboard around the 6502 like if it would be a micro controller; you can easily discard the kernel part of the firmware and write something else on the whole thing. I don't know how compatible this 6502 variant with Commodore programs, but I can imagine someone coming up with a C64 compatibility layer running on the Pico (or additional Picos, as nothing stopping you adding more) which emulates most of the C64 hardware (CIA/VIA/VIC/SID/Disk) and let the 6502 run original programs. Though I haven't looked into details, but I think something along the lines is possible if memory mapping is not in the way.
I've been looking for a project like this, RC2014 is a bit out of my price range but this I could probably make work.
I might have all the capacitors and resistors and diodes and such already, too. Maybe a couple of the ICs to salvage from busted equipment, but that's a little bit of a longshot.
More like planned to be $300 with the hope to make it $50 in the future.
Building your own retro computer is much more fun, the journey is more fun than the destination IMO.
Edit/ I build couple system in past decade like this, with micro controller replacing the hardware around. I build them all on strip board pcb's, is fun, doesn't cost much, and you don't need ROM or RAM chips.
Exactly. Fun!
It's very tidy on a PCB :-)
Thanks. Only 2 layers too.
When David first mentioned the X16 I was very interested.
I was a 70's-80's kid.
I had, and still have, an Amstrad CPC 464 and 6128.
I first started programming BASIC on a friend's TRS-80 computer.
So I still have thr memory and nostalgia for these computers.
The X16 at $50 was a pipedream. I suspected the price would likely be nearer $150-$200 once on sale.
At that price. I would likely still have been interested enough to buy one to play with.
At $500 it is in the realms of serious Retro, Console and low to mid PC computing.
Gone from a 'fun' nostalgia trip.
They are also buying machines to build a lot of the machine 'in house'. Seems daft to me unless they plan to sell tens of thousands of them.
Especially considering David put out a video recently explaining he is moving away from selling his games in physical format due to costs.
I won't be buying an X16.
Looks like a fun little computer.
But considering I can buy an Original C64 as well as one or two more original classic home computers for the same sort of price. I'd rather have a classic original which will only appreciate in value at a quicker rate.
Ok, let's see if i can debunk the 50 Dollar myth.
First and foremost, the first video of David he mentioned that a computer less powerfull than a raspberry pi shouldn't cost more than a raspberry pi. That was the only mention he did. For that he planned 3 stages.
First stage: Full motherboard with all the off-the-shelf components. Back then he thought that this would cost around US 250 for developers and early adopters only. Then the Pandemic happened. Then the shortage of components happened, plus inflation too. Manufacture cost went up too... now true, the first 100 punched boards were donated by PCBWay, but still the costs were too high, compared with the initial estimate. That explain the US 500 they asked for the people that buyed the first 75 boards (plus keyboard, mouse, one developer bread board and a pico-atx power supply). Yup, they are sold out right now.
Second stage: Smaller board, with no expansion capacity and convert the multiple chips of the dev boards into ASIC's. More oriented to Videogames, but still the same mechine. David hasn't mentioned the cost, but should be way less than the original DEV boards, according to one of his lastest videos.
Third Stage: The RPI form factor card. Everything goes into an ASIC. Non-upgradeable parts and no expansion ports. This is the final design that is expected to have the lower cost of all of them.
And in case you people missed it. There was a Commander X8 in a Card factor, but with only 64KB RAM+ 64KB Video (if memory serves). David showcase it in one of its videos, and asked the community if they wanted the Card formatted machine during the pandemic time. The community didn't wanted it. So the original plan continues.
Sorry for hijaking this, i think that is pretty cool to have alternatives and have people working on their own dream machines, but there's a lot of lies and disinformation about the Commander X16 project. (Granted, David wasn't really clear about the pricing, but people read too much between lines and that's just not the way older geeks works.)
That board is Wicked Awesome Cool. Exactly what I've been looking for. Your Picocomputer project is coming along very nicely. Yes, I'm interested. I have an Agon Light 2 and if the X16 becomes available at a lower price I may purchase one of them. However, I have a bunch of Pico's just waiting for a project to really push their capabilities and you're board has REAL 6502, with no SMD's that these old eyes can't see. 🙂
If I had even a hint of nostalgia for the Z80 then I'd buy an Argon Lite. Very practical and reasonably priced (even when it was $100). But I took the MOS -> Motorola -> Intel journey.
Nice build, can't say I've seen this one before. Also can't say I'm a fan of permanent builds on plug in proto breadboards, the good old veroboard rules here.
Just soldered my one up: it’s alive. Can’t get it to recognise my USB keyboard and the USB pen drive at the moment. Need to fiddle with it a bit more
A couple people on the forums had to fiddle with USB hubs.
@@rumbledethumpsneeded to use a USB 2.0 card reader, I assume that it isn’t usb 3.0 compatible. My mouse works OK but the keyboard not so much. I am not worried: it’s a journey, not a destination. I used a C64 in my youth. That was a mystery when I got it too
Keyboar’s fine but I need to pick a better usb hub
I don't get why the hate on this video. Excellent job. I hope you can sell some ready made boards one day for those of us who don't have the tools to make our own.
The video is fine, but the title is a little bit of click-bait.
I need this!!
Somewhere, out there, is a 65C02 looking for a home.
heads up, that super long disclaimer that you wrote and put in the closed captioning at the beginning of the video does not show in full. you may want to put it somewhere else if you actually want people to read it
I just looked at the captions and don't see what you mean. Not sure what I said would be considered a disclaimer. Can you give me a few words of the captioning that doesn't look right so I can search for it?
@@rumbledethumps just checked my settings, and it seemed it popped up as a result of autotranslate captions trying to translate to english for some weird reason. the way it was formatted and only appeared for a few seconds looked like a disclaimer rather than captions, but reading through it again, it appears that autotranslating from english to english in the captions seems to put them all at the beginning of the video. my apologies for the mix-up
All youtube videos do that if you leave CC on. It's a glitch in the youtube programming.
NEXT: Why I'm not buying a quantum computer.
It's always disappointing when people do that "Commander X16 was supposed to be $50 but it's $500" thing without context. It probably drives engagement (like the title - EDIT: two days later, the title has changed to an accurate description of the video), but the truth is much more boring: The first boards were never going to be cheap, but they want to cost-reduce it over time. Next batch should be $350, and if they get their way future generations will drop down much lower.
But this system, while far different (especially in its software environment), is interesting and has the benefit of being cheap and available today. Thanks for sharing!
agreed 👍
edit: I am still on the fence about the x-16, but I am leaning over that fence toward getting it... second gen of course. 😎
Well it's also disappointing when context changes to suit the situation. Reality is harder to face than the fantasy in that case. But reality is things change and doing something about it if you can't afford the new system is not a negative response. So the context here that is being missed. Some people can't afford even 200 dollars and want a cheaper computer so building one you can afford is a perfectly viable solution -- also not an attack to say the context changed. He did state 50 dollars in his original video as a gross estimate it's not a thing that didn't happen. some people followed the development with that context in mind and David did not correct them for a long time. So I think that's where all the confusion is coming from.
@@lindoran There's no need to become defensive. I haven't attacked anyone, and have in fact expressed an interest in what he's built. There are nice options with varying types of "retro" computing at many price points now, and that's a good thing.
But I'm not a fan of clickbait or misinformation (or misinformed people repeating wrong information).
@@jc33353 I didn't say you attacked him, I think you misunderstood, what I was saying is that it's not click bait to use the words "why I'm not buying a commander x16." If you then go ahead and show why. It's also true that he said he would like to see a price of 50 dollars and then (likely because of an over site let's be honest) did not correct people until much later. I agree both projects are great! All the confusion is coming from the fact David said he'd like it to be 50 dollars then people followed it based on that context and were confused when he clarified. That's a different thing. He's still entitled to that opinion even though David clarified, and the reason is he was initially vague. Just because he apologized and corrected himself doesn't change the initial statement or the consequence of it. So I guess I just was trying to explain how people came do believe it an why that's a valid feeling is all.
We'll see.
I'm quite skeptical that the Commander X16 will ever become affordable. It seems to me the reason you can reduce costs is being able to take your revenue from the first iteration, and put it into a 2nd gen re-design where you can cost-reduce it somehow. But if you don't get the sales for Gen1, you don't have the cash to make Gen2. I can put down plans for reducing costs too, but in the end they're just plans.
There's several other better designed Retro computers available today that are 1/10 of the price of the X16. The whole thing is sort of interesting, since it seems like it's a bit of a repeat of the late 70s, early 80s. On price too. Apple computers were always far far more expensive than the Commodore ones, but Commodore was the one to crack the nut on price, so they became far more popular than the Apple 8-bit machines. I halfway expect the same thing to happen again, just at a much smaller scale.
The X16 emulator is free. You need some tools to build your own computer, and what software is there for it? Later versions of the X16 will be less. (If It ever gets produced. Might be better to just Mister it.)
Most of us want a MiSTer version. It's more about "who has the skills?" at this point. So far, no one with strong FPGA skills has stepped up to say "I'll give it a go."
For 500 for the x16, could have just gone with the other person he criticized
I dont blame anyone.
New Sub! Dryden, MI
Thats a Sweet Project! Epic Work!!
I built this (my veroboard beast is in this video) because it is simple and yet elegant in the way the RIA is a memory mapped I/O device that provides similar capabilities to peripheral interfaces in "old" systems. Things actually run on the 65C02, I'm having great fun - even at this early stage of development - writing some graphics editors in C and learning 6502 ASM to squeeze extra performance out. I'm an old time Z80 guy having written lots of commercial and hobby code in Z80 ASM when it was the raging thing.
I won't be buying an X16 because I think it's a frankenstein designed by a committee and it meets almost none of the initial project goals. This thing is cheap and elegant and it exists...
I have a large collection of old systems, I like building and I like ASM and I see a lot of versatility in this design which will keep me amused until the next shiny thing comes along.
I get it. Part of me wants to hang the breadboard on the wall, the other part wants to yank the chips for the next shiny thing.
No one is forcing people to buy the Commander x16 and if you were being honest, you would have mentioned that the initial price is high to cover costs they encountered during the project. The price will come down for late adopters. Home brew 6502 computer boards were readily available before the Commander x16 as well d isn’t solely what the project is about.
Commander X16 is well priced outside of my budget even at half the price. Instead I built a couple of Z80-MBC2 boards and added an ESP32 for vga and keyboard. It has limitations because of it being a VT terminal, but you can run CP/M, pascal and do graphics with it. All in I'm about $50 for that kit. I'll be watching this project closely as it might be my next build. One of the biggest limitations has been the lack of an extra serial port for connecting it to the outside world. I'm guessing this machine won't have those limitations?
The Picocomputer has one UART intended for connecting to a big PC for cross development. There's a 6522 with 16(+4) GPIOs you can use to connect with the outside world. And, of course, the S in USB is for "serial", but that's probably not what you meant.
Welcome to inflation...
tindie kit when?
for the X16, I became less interested because of the FPGA. Felt like that in many ways killed the spirit of a retro computer by providing it more advanced abilities. Might as well throw the CPU into the FPGA and call it done.
But you'd be quite happy with a microcontroller doing the same thing, eh?
dude
brother j
And the X16 community has been infested by despair and is toxic, since.
2 picos powering one toy is kind of overkill for my taste.
A single one can easily emulate any 8 bit system, its quite absurd if you think about it. But to each their own, cool hobby.
On the other hand its a $4-5 part. If you replaced them with a 6545 and some kind of ROM and IO chip you'd have less functionality at a greater cost and no real practical advantage other than massively increased complexity and some notion of "purity".
I have never understood why someone would want to spend $500 on a new 6502 based computer. Surely the same thing could be written in code to run on modern hardware. I totally understand why people want original hardware for running old games and software. Failing that FGPA based systems are better than emulators. But a completely new system with very little software available - no!
Building your own Picocomputer - totally get it. Nice video.
I think the x16 got hit with wild scope creep, and they wanted to do too much of the manufacturing internally which is just not cost effective at the volume they are likely to do.
It does look like pretty much the ultimate computer based on this level of tech, but it's just way too expensive.
@@annieworroll4373 Pretty sure the X16 is just a bit of fun. People are taking it waaaaay too seriously. Whether it's $50 or $500 is pretty irrelevant.
Just go buy a descent used mini-PC or a laptop for $100, install an emulator, and have fun
I consider the commander x16 to be both a failure to adhere to its initial mandate and a colossal waste of time.
everything using a esp32, rp2040 or a raspberry for graphics (or anything else) doesn't feel right in context of retro computing - it's like cheating, imho. FPGAs and CPLDs are tolerable because they are real hardware, so to speak.
TBH - that's why I don't think you can build a "new" retro computer. The C64 was the best you could get in 1982. Either work with that hardware, or accept that these days the equivalent is the PS5.
@@davidlloyd1526 That's not true. Of course you can't develop ASICs for new graphics chips or clone old video controllers as ASICs like the VIC but you can use FPGAs or CPLDs for creating new graphics controllers - or you can synthesize old retro chips. Analog Pocket (or Mister project) does exactly this, they are creating FPGA cores that resemble the original hardware as much as possible and it's not a software emulation but a translation of the original hardware into a hardware description language like Verilog or VHDL. X16 uses a FPGA for the Vera which is, imho, the correct way for a retro system if you want to be able to manucature numerous systems without the risk of running into shortage of obsolete graphics controllers. Imho software emulation with a multi-hundred-MHz-CPU anywhere used in a retro computer design isn't the real deal. But of course it's only my oppinion and nobody has to agree with it.
Imho this project is not really retro computing, it's just feels like it as it has a native 6502 CPU. It has completely different kernel, GPU, I/O management, storage, etc. It doesn't try to emulate any existing retro computer. It's a new computer running 6502 code which can leverage high level services supplied by the ARM core and the other PIX devices accessible on the bus. This is a hybrid system, and the 6502 has a concrete API to the ARM side and vice-versa.
@@davidlloyd1526 PALs and GALs (and HALs) were standard parts in the early 1980s and I can make plenty of "new" retrocomputing around them today. Not practical for complex sprites (unless you enjoy masochism), but practical for almost everything else including simple sprites.
@@punpck hardware emulation is software was even part of the 80s home computer era. Just remember the flawed 6522 VIA chip which caused Commodore to bit-bang the serial bus in software for the 1541 disk drive. :)
Nice project... but please change the title of this video to something that reflects the content.
Myself, and probably others would still like to know why you are not buying an X16.
because this exists, is cheap and versatile and meets the needs of the average person wanting an "old" 6502 system for learning/playing/experimenting. At least that's why I built it (mine is in the video).
The Commander X16 did look good when it was announced, but is turning into the Conman X16 pretty rapidly.
the X16 had a big dose of feature creep and with it came a significant increase in price. That said, the expansion slots of the V1 boards do appeal to me, since making my own expansion card sounds cool.
This computer, though, certainly has it beat on affordability Since this is the first I've seen of it, I'm not sure what capabilities it actually has comparatively..
I commented on the 8 bit guys video where he looked like a nervous ceo at a press conference trying to justify (and at the same time still try to do his sales pitch) the x16. It was a cringefest of stammering and diversionary doubletalk that would make most politicians blush. Ive been a fan of his channels for over 5 years but as soon as i saw how his original vision of a cheap hobby pc turned into a collab with Retro Recipies and case moulds being sourced i knew the project had snowballed far away from the original vision. I of course got slammed into the comments basement over there because the lemming fan boys got all tribal and couldnt have a constructive conversation about it. I disagree with some of your commenters saying you should change your title to be more honest. You are a small channel and using a bit clickbaity title is absolutely the right choice. I am a bit disappointed that aside from the cost you didnt really go in depth on why you arent buying the x16 but we can easily infer that the price and lack of diy fun are your main reasons. But good on ya... this is a slick project and you earned a sub from me. Without the title i probably wouldnt have watched... thus proving that clickbait titles do work. And thats why ppl stil use them @roman kubalov
Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Hi a few people mention click bait titles
There is click bait lies - ad what you get is nothing like what the click bait promises
But this one is 100% accurate he is talking about why ** COST ** and showed how you can diy it for 10 cents in the dollar
I am not going to buy a Commander X16, for the money i can get a new I7 laptop
For a project hobby system, i will live with emulation ( i often use Vmac for classic mac, Sheep Shaver for PPC Apple Mac, Vice for C64 and similar , WinUAE for amiga - that cover the most popular ) , the Raspbery Pi 3 & 4 that i have plus the pi2zerow
I would give this a go but my soldering skills is limited to audio speaker wires and if i am lucky a cr2032 battery terminal post :(
I wont bash the Commander X16 - it has a lot of time and effort put in top it, but it is x10 the promised price ( 2x 3x 4x i can live with ) but for me it is to expensive for a hobby toy
I am so tired of this hate... And not even hate... Like "I don't have any popularity yet so let me just use popularity of others to get at least some attention". 7 billions of people on the Earth don't buy X16 because they don't need it and they have something instead. There is also Ben Eater who put a much more effort to show us how to build homebrew computer NEVER comparing with others. Stop this. Find your own way. I won't even look at details of something that tries to speculate on this stuff.
Then you have no business commenting! What you're suggesting isn't what is happening here. It exists only in your flawed perception.
The “X16 is $500” comment is super misleading and lacks literally all the context. It’s not that simple, nor is it intended to stay $500. Kinda shitty clickbaiting, honestly.
Yeah. For context it's going to be cheaper when there's no through hole parts, no 6502, no expandability, just an FPGA with a 6502 core added to the firmware. Oh and that version is planned to be $350.
It isn't going to be $50 either
It is almost as bad as misusing the word literally in two different ways in the same sentence. Kind of a habit with Americans.
@@MechanicaMenace Wow, nearly everything in this comment is wrong.
@@SpeccyMan figuratively speaking
Seems like it could be interesting, but the clickbait title earned an immediate thumbs-down.