Not Quite a C64 - But just as good, maybe better?
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- BMC64 and a Fazcination PCB - match made in heaven? This episode has been sponsored by our good friends at PCBWay.com - Check out their website for all your PCB fabrication needs. pcbway.com - PCBs for as little as $5!
Check out the PCBWay Contest at www.pcbway.com/activity/4th-p...
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:50 The BMC64 Project
02:20 The Fascination C64 Kit
03:40 The Build
14:18 Power up and Test
16:50 Wrap-Up
Follow the shack on twitter: / scottth54604744
Support the channel: / theretroshack
Buy us a coffee: ko-fi.com/theretroshack
References:
github.com/randyrossi/bmc64
accentual.com/vicii-kawari/ - Věda a technologie
I have a real C64 and couldn't put this together if my life depended on it, but I found it immensely satisfying to watch. Nice job.
Thanks :) Glad you enjoyed it :)
You have the best close-up soldering footage that I have ever seen. Thanks.
Thanks very much!
Agreed. It's very relaxing and informative. Not saying you should open up a soldering ASMR channel though. :)
Resistor packs have no polarity but actually have pin 1 marked with a white dot which means that must be put in correct orientation on the PCB
Thanks for that :) The manual stated it could be entered either way but I’ll double check :)
@@jimbailey3141 For those with a series of discrete resistors, they also all have to be the same value. Otherwise, "polarity" matters again.
Very nice project indeed. I used the bluetooth recreated spectrum by Elite to achieve the same goal. Can I also recommend as side projects, a C16/Plus4 using BMC64, the Hatari Atari ST conversion and the Amiga cconversion. I am currently in the middle of an Atari 130XE/Pi conversion :-). There is also SugarPI out there for anyone wanting to do a GX4000/Pi conversion :-). Good times.
This is the nicest soldering I've ever seen on CZcams. High resolution, great focus, helpful tips, slow and steady and most importantly, joints actually flowed properly. Very enjoyable to watch. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoyed it :)
A neat trick for those fan nuts:
After you get the nuts tightened down properly, put a drop of nail polish between where the bolt threads go through the nuts. Keeps them from loosening and easy to crack off the nail polish if you want to remove it.
Good trick! I’ll remember that!
Instead,.clean the threads with solvent, dry completely, then use LockTite.
@@officermeowmeowfuzzyface4408 Given how unreliable I've found 40 mm fans to be, I'll take the lesser holding power of nail polish. I'd expect to be changing it every five years or so.
There's an actual product for this called Threadlock which is probably just nail polish.
@@mal2ksc LocTite comes in several formulations: service removable "blue" or small fastener "purple" formulations are made to retain well but disassemble easily. LocTite red requires heat to disassemble (not a good choice for PCB applications, no). Just use the right stuff for the right job.
There's a different product, TorqueSeal, which is a lacquer based product. It is used to provide evidence of tampering on critical fasteners and closures. It's available in a wide variety of designer colors for the technician on the go. Just the thing to make sure nobody messes with your Sacred Chao without your knowledge.
Great video! Just one remark. At 7:30, the first pin should be reheated/resoldered because you have a cold soldering as it was moved while cooling. It also shows on the video, it looks very matte.
Cheers - popped back and re-flowed it :)
This looks really good but I wish there was additional hardware to support the Luma-Chroma cable, physical carts, and real hard drives. There are a lot of dead mainboards out there with working keyoards and real hardware accessories. A FULL mainboard replacement supporting all original interfaces would be fantastic.
Actually there are many full MB replacements available at this time.... they even have kits the allow a brand new C64 using just a few old parts... but even those few parts are being replaced by new ones (Example the SID chip)
@@TheTkiller9999 Yeah, so I guess I'm looking for emulator guts that can inteface to original IO ports
The Ultimate, Elite and there’s another available that does all that. The waiting time is long, so fetch a hefty price on eBay. I might have a few brand new in the box if you can’t wait…
@@JesusisJesus And what kind of Price would you be looking for? I.e. the brand new in box?
@@TheTkiller9999 I have an unopened, unflashed Ultimate 64 yours for $900 Australian. Including postage.
It took me 2 years to obtain it, and was hoping to use the dual SID capability with some extra SIDs and SIDcarts MSSIAHs and MIDI to assemble a triple 64 in a Hammond style organ case.
Very clear instructions and detail on the soldering process, double thumbs up
Cheers!
Sticking a Pi into a C64 has certainly come a long way since I did it!
I love your soldering method. Best I have seen. I have soldered so many things.
18:18 Thought I heard the 1541 drive head bumping in the background, til I realized it was part of the tune. 😄
Great video, as always. That kit looks like a quality product, something else for me to put on the wish list.
You make it look so easy. Wish my eyesight and shaky hands were as good as they were when I was a whippersnapper, I'd try this myself :)
Absolutely awesome, we need something like this for the amiga now
Great project, thanks for sharing! And I like your soldering technique, cause it's the same like mine, after soldering and cutting off the pins to resolder again for having a nice solder joint, I do the same and in most videos I have not seen this, so a big thumbs up! And also using the little finger for bringing in extra stability while soldering is exactly what I do :-D haha.. so very cool!!! Best wishes from Germany, Michael
Thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoyed the video :)
Nicely done. The longer run time fitted much better.
Thanks :)
Nice job with the build, and overall it looks like a good solution. It looked like the whole side panel moved several mm when you plugged in the joystick at 14:30 - is that due to the single screw holding it down?
Thanks, and yes the board does pivot slightly on that screw - I don't want to be gluing or screwing the case in any way so I'm going to solve that with some double sided sticky pads :)
Thank you, another very clear and concise video. I was unsure about this before watching but it would be a good project for an empty case. Is it also compatible with a C64C case?
Thanks, and glad you enjoyed it :). Indeed it is compatible with the C64C case too :)
i have a c64 maxi but cant save a program from using the machine code monitor supermon64 to a usb stick, i dont want to use the c64 maxi save/load option.Is there going to be a future update so a machine code monitor can reconise the usb drive?
Retro tastic x3 I still got a C64 that I found in the trash but never got it running and this could be a real cool thing to build into it
Go for it! It's (in my opinion) a better option than a TheC64 as it has more features and is a more accurate emulator :)
@@TheRetroShack Sounds great ! Rember I found it in the trash back in like 2015 and also got 2 Gameboys out of there but never had a C64 so no cables to hook up and this way I can get the real feeling with the keyboard and such
Awesome build and a great use for a new case and soon new keyboards. Where did you get the port cover that you 3d printed?
Thanks - the port cover was found on Thingiverse and printed in Black PETG :)
@@TheRetroShack Ok Cool. Thanks!
For me it is still a C64 if most of the original , or compatible hardware is present. Using an emulated SBC environment with non compatible software that requires emulation makes it no longer a C64.
Now if the software were to be completely rewritten to run without emulation. It might resemble what Commodore would manufacture now if they were still in business. Honestly I could have seen Atari , and Commodore. Eventually just making a standard PC clone like HP, Lenovo, and Dill have done. I often wonder what manufacturers would have done to improve their, PC hardware of old. I think many of those questions have been answered by what we have today. Just think if the 8086 was standard instead of the 8088 from the start back i n the day. The 8 bit phase might have been skipped completely.
excellent video,. i have a couple of C64's to look at so if they are not savable i may look into this (my C64 knowledge is zero) ..surly that resistor network must go the correct way as pin 1 will be common ? i just had a delivery of some new zx spectrum motherboards (based on issue 3B) could do with your soldering skills for them ... ohh where to start
Resistor networks don't all have that configuration but they usual have a common and therefore an orientation as you say. My first thought was that it's a sweeping generalisations that networks can go either way.
Found a C64C case for 15€ and a matching keyboard for 20€….. This is what I was looking for….. and ordered a full Fascination kit on ebay…. Waiting for everything to arrive!!!
Awesome! Let me know how you get on :)
I really like this project. I have a C64 but honestly I don't have any use for it, and it's too bulky for use as a keyboard. Of course I wouldn't ever touch the original C64, but I would use a board like this plus Rasp Pi to convert a salvage keyboard & 3d prototype case into something like a Pi400.
That's the exact use case I see - old salvaged case and keyboard, pop this in and you've got a nice little project :)
Where can I buy the kit in your video?
I did the same thing with a AMIGA 500 case ! Cool project ! Like it ! The hard part of my AMIGA project was to connect the AMIGA keyboard to the PI !
Sounds like a really cool project!
A lot of people said that to me. I guess I will make a short video of it. Will be the first one for me on youtube !
New to your channel (I think?), and really enjoyed this bit of kit being built. I built one of Stephen Cousins's kits (an SC126) almost a year ago, and this brought back some of the enjoyment I felt doing that work. I was surprised to see no flat & lock washers on the fan nuts, but, as Jammit Timmaj has shown us, there are other ways. (Neat trick, that.)
Glad you enjoyed the video - and welcome to the channel! :) :)
I love thr concept of the bare metal emulators - gets rid of a pesky, unneeded Linux kernel which would be imposing the unwanted indeterminism of its process context switching overhead. Will be able to be much tighter and precise when there's non process pre-emption going on per that pesky kernel
This is close: czcams.com/video/ODg0W-yWdUA/video.html
I think this is great for people that want to learn or dabble in the c64 mystique but i like having one that original for the SID chip alone
I have been looking for good SID tunes that use two (or more?) SIDs. I happen to have an Ultimate64 with an 8580 SID (so I guess I can use the UltiSID + 8580 together?). But I have never heard them both in action. Would you (or anyone?) be able to suggest any great tunes that use more than one SID?
Really enjoyed that video! Always exciting to see new C64 projects!
Where did you purchase the Fazcination PCB from?
Good old Fleabay :)
how accurate is the emulator? does it run software exactly the same as original hardware and software?
I know this is ~10 months late, but it's important to remember this is a "finished" Kit, and you are/where still working on it. We much remember esp. in this day an age not to compare the full and terrible parts of our lives with the Highlight Reels of other people's lives. We never see what lands on the cutting room floors when they post or release things, just the end results.
Love to make one of these, unfortunately I have zero soldering skill (or kit!) Do you know if anyone does a ready built version?
Great vid as always!
Glad you enjoyed!
Probably much better than C64Maxi. I would suggest changing fan to very big radiator to keep C64 silent
You made me wonder about that vic-ii chip... I wonder if it could be put on a circuit board with an ISA, PCI, PCI-e or Commander X16 bus connector? It would be cool playing with Vic-II graphics on my PC (ISA/PCI in DOS, PCI-e in Linux) or to have it available for the X16 when it comes out.
You could, of course, put support for it into emulators, or write really cool custom games/demos for the aforementioned OSes.
I'm sure there will be a way to connect it directly to a Raspberry Pi someday. A nice addition to the BMC64 / Faszination project.
Yep, I'm excited for Kawari - really looks amazing.
Is there any joystick input lag with this emulator?
Not that I've noticed - it's pretty spot on!
A c64 wouldn't be the same without sounds of a chicken being slaughted omitting from the disk drive
How very true!!!
What is better value out of this and r pie and a ultimate 64?
i wonder if this has internet capability as well in the emulator, so you can connect to a BBS?
Can you have this emulate the C128 as well or VIC-20. Be nice to be able to change or even add a carousel
I love these kits, but I do hate that none of them include support for the serial ports if you have a real disk drive or even cartridges to run.
Yes - I've found the clone ZX Spectrum boards mostly allow for edge connector and therefore peripherals but the C64 doesn't - probably because it's a bit more complex to achieve.
@@TheRetroShack You are not wrong, I suspect that it part of the reason that the Ultimate 64 board is so expensive it that it does incorporate the hardware to deal with these devices, but 40ish years after the release such devices are not in common use, at least this board it a nifty little device that uses the original case and keyboard so it still has the iconic look of the C64 but modern capabilities to run from USB and modern power supplies if needed.
What a smashing product!! Been toying with the idea of a TheC64 Maxi... I'm not so sure now!! :?D
Is there a Kit like this for the Commodore 128 ? 😀
It wound be interesting to know if the hardware and software support paddles through those serial ports to manipulate the sids pitch etc.
You'd like this synth then.
czcams.com/video/2DkwQ9ldVxk/video.html
does it fit in the remakes of the 64c case? or indeed an original 64c case
Fits in all the original cases for the c64 and 64c and also the c64 maxi. :)
If you want it to be even more authentic, you can run it with composite video out from the Pi. No (easy) s-video unfortunately tho. ;-)
I hooked up my own, but it's currently all jumper wires from the keyboard to the Pi and not attached. I've been planning on doing a PCB for it.
Go for it :) It’s a fun build and really nicely made :)
im glad i got this in recommended
A tip for holding the parts for soldering, use blu tack it does a good job at holding the parts in at preferred angle.
Thanks for the tip :)
Agreed. It works well. Just avoid touching it with the soldering iron; it melts quickly and turns into a sticky mess. ;-)
Looks like a really good kit
Yep - really impressed with it :)
Love this, thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it :)
The resistor pack actually has a "polarity", the first pin (marked with a dot) is common to all resistors, so you have to put in the right way...
Thanks for the info. The instruction manual stated that it could be inserted either way - I’ll double check it :)
It can go both ways if both ends are connected anyway.
That depends on whether the individual resistors share a common pin or not - when they don't, pin 1 is often still marked even though it doesn't matter.
@@Drucklufttroete That's true, I was suggested by the pin 1 marking on the resistor pack, and the fact that most common ones have a common pin, as are bus pull-ups or pull-downs.
Great piece of kit. Would it fit in a C64C case?
Indeed it does :)
I'm actually impressed with the soldering. Now to fix the weird scaling/framerate issues in some of the footage and graphics!
Can you point me to some examples of the issues you’re seeing so I can see what’s going on? Thanks :)
@@TheRetroShack what's your editor?
1:00 - however the image is being scaled/translated there's definitely some sort of non-smooth filter or method the editing software is doing. Same with other computer bits like 1:51. The more I re-watch - any image you scale/translate seems to have that issue. Throughout a lot of the start images/photos/screenshots
@@DouglasFish I use Wondershare Filmora Pro. I’ll take a look - thanks :)
4:57 - resistor packs do have polarity and as you can see, there's a dot on one side on the package...
This particular one is stated in the instructions as having no polarity and can be fitted either way :)
@@TheRetroShack Well, thats very strange! because depending on how you place is, the resistance is different between either the 1e or last pin.
BMC64 doesn't support network connectivity where has Combian64 does and runs on the same hardware and is also based on Vice.
Thanks - I’ll take a look at that 👍
With the way things are going this might be the only way I’m going to get my hands on a c64 😅
It’s a great piece of kit :)
@@TheRetroShack not sure what the market for this is though (sadly) esp with thec64 as an option to original hardware?
I was surprised at how easy it was to get hands on one, even locally - I got a C64c, never opened before I did it (warranty sticker was intact) and everything inside it was in perfect working order. SID is nice, and I've run demos to confirm it doesn't have the VSP crash. I did replace the power supply for the usual safety reasons, but it looked fine too.
Disk drives, though, are another matter.
I only got my very first & original C64 last December off Ebay. Just keep an eye on the prices but they do show up.
Mine didn't have a PSU which was fine as I got a modern replacement. PI1541 for disk drive & a RS232 cart all works nicely
Zener-diodes should not be flush to the PCB. Have them half a cm above it. It will at least double the life of the zener...
Is there a link to the kit?
I just grabbed mine off good old Fleabay :)
Very nice video and a fascinating project. The only things I don't like is that it has no back plate to clean up the look. Also, it seems to be a little flimsy the way it only has one screw holding it on. It would be better if it was more secure. Still, I look forward to doing this with an empty case I have.
VIC-II replacement creator page link?
accentual.com/vicii-kawari/ - and added to the description. Sorry about that :)
Brilliant. If you wanted to upset everyone, you could have the Speccy PI emulate the C64 and vice versa. LOL.
That is a really cool solution for when the real hardware dies. Have you tried Combian and compared it to BM64? I would love to get your take on the two.
Combian is nice but it’s half locked behind a paywall now and without being able to access his custom menu you lose a lot of functionality. I’m considering switching my 64 to this. (My Vic is my daily driver with a pi 4 lol)
any idea where these kits can be purchased from that ship to AU?
www.ebay.com.au/itm/164599327502?hash=item2652e26b0e:g:e-oAAOSwktpf42Sb
@@TheRetroShack doesnt post to australia ...
@@psyolent. Aargh! That’s a real shame! I hope you find a distributor!
@@TheRetroShack any clue as to where I can get one in UK. Found a German eBay seller but he won't ship to UK.
@@JimWood28 Hi Jim - I got mine of the uk eBay site, shipped from Germany. Keep an eye on the listings as they are on there. Good luck and hope you get one!
What is that tape you are using?
Commonly referred to as Kapton which is the Dupont trade name. It's polyimide tape.
@@ches74 Thanks!
How come there were Apple II clones back in the 80s but no C64 clones?
The Apple II (not the iie) was built using a lot of off the shelf parts that were widely available whereas the C64 used custom chips that only Commodore had access to (Commodore owned MOS who manufactured the chips so they had a big advantage over others)
As someone just posted - it’s the custom chips :)
I need a kit like this for the VIC-20.
Well interestingly, BMC64 will also emulate a VIC-20 - you may want to take a look at the website and see if it's for you.
@@TheRetroShack I already have a MiSTer FPGA. It's the case and keyboard that makes this tempting.
Like the way it boots almost as fast as the real deal.
These bare metal emulators are crazy fast loaders :)
What about the user port?
c64 for ever man!
Hmmm...I like this design better than the board referenced on Rossi's site. I found assembled kits on eBay but no shipping to the U.S. Bummer.
Can't get the Faszination C64 kits shipped to Canada either, so sad.
could you leave a link to WHERE you bought it in germany .. can only find it on ebay :(
Oh, I got mine from eBay too. Just the company that makes them is in Germany :)
my real c64c has a fastloader cart and using sd2iec, its stupid fast, might give this setup a run for the money since the sd2iec patched the slow disk load speeds
This is based on VICE which allows you to attach virtual cartridges too, and has a ‘warp speed’ setting for loading. Might be worth checking out just for comparison. Don’t get me wrong though - I’ll still use my actual c64 whenever I can over an emulator but this is a good option if you have a spare keyboard and case lying around :)
@@TheRetroShack is there any way to say hook up an OG disk drive to say convert physical disks to images?
You forgot to mention what the regret was. 😁 But that said. I have been thinking about getting one of these. I have stumbled on it from time to time on eBay, in my quest for finding stuff for my C64 replica's.
I believe the regret is that now he has seen how well presented that kit is he feels he needs to up his game for his kits.
This. :) :)
All it needs is the flashing line loading screens
Oh - it does that! :) I just didn't leave the looooong loading times in the video. But it's a pretty exact copy of the c64 :)
This looks like a pretty good alternative to getting a The64!
That is my thought as well. It seems as if one can live without the carosel, then this have more features. It is the SID quality that I am mostly thinking about, because that is extremely hard to emulate well.
@@brostenen Adrian Black did a review of the ArmSID recently which he thought was good. That's not to say the hardware used here is the same or the emulator can drive it as well but it seems that good efforts are being made on the SID front.
Not really a fan of bare metal emulation on a PI but the board is gorgeous.
Indeed it is!
I wish it had a composite out.
Does the thyristor need a heatsink?
Nope - had it running for ages and it’s not getting hot at all :)
Nice video. I want that too :)
You should definitely get one - it's a blast to build and really cool to use :)
@@TheRetroShack Url to the kit ?
@@tommyovesen They’re listed on eBay - that’s where I picked mine up from :)
Awesome subbed you
Cool
Excellent video, despite the questionable soldering skills. 😁🤣
Protip: put one drop of nail varnish on top of the fan nuts to lock them in place (or use nuts of the nyloc variety).
That's how to spot a pro, shiny nails! Personally I use aerospace varnish.
@@ches74 my reasoning is that, since he is married, nail varnish it's going to be a household item vs a more expensive threadlock brand name product.
If I had to put some on my nails, I may be partial to something containing magnetic glitter.
@@bufordmaddogtannen not all ladies use nail polish but it's possible. Anaerobic threadlocker should be used with caution in any case as it can crack plastic, definitely safer to use varnish of one type of another.
Don't cut pin headers with wire cutters! It makes a right mess. Use needle nose pliers to snap them.
You'd have to be mad to use an original C64 power supply with this, they are terrible. Presumably it only uses the 5V pins anyway, so even if I wanted to use the DIN connector I'd just wire a standard 5V power supply into that. Literally any cheapo 5V PSU you can buy off Amazon would be better than the original Commodore one.
To put your mind at rest - I use a brand new c64 style psu - you’re totally right about the original ‘death box’ psu :)
@@TheRetroShack My real C64 runs on a power supply cobbled together out of two separate off-the-shelf 5V and 9VAC power supplies. It takes up two wall sockets but at least the 5V line is actually 5V and not 11V like on the original Commodore PSU I had :-).
@@djcsdy2 That’s made me smile :) :)
Man, we have been waiting for Mega65 for years now, why can’t we have it implemented this way, that is have a choice of c64, c128, c65 or even pet?
Maybe you already know this, but BMC64 already comes with VIC20, C128, +4 and PET emulation. I don't think any sophisticated C65 emulators exist currently? (Mega65 is much much more that just a C65 clone anyhow, so that project has plenty of merit on its own)
Doesn't count as real, but realistically you'd keep it as a backup that's more likely to work
Lol - Yep, that’s my view. Always use my actual c64 as a preference but this sort of thing is great to throw in a backpack and lug off to relatives :)
'One single screw' that just sounds like it's bound to fail or even worse cause stress on original case plastics, the are other connotations but we not going there! ;)
a self-adhesive PCB standoff looks like it could be added as there is a hole at the bottom of the board - though not ideal it would help provide support
Definitely needs more support
blue smoke
have you tried DE10-nano/arrow sockit
if you would use instruction just-in-time in hardware rewiring, it would work approximately in same manner as software emulation, hardware instruction just-in-time circuit switching
No blue smoke yet :) :)
Needs a CRT
Why not just try Ultimate 64, all done in hardware!
Have you been getting my mail? Ultimate64 episode coming VERY soon :)
@@TheRetroShack 👍😀
[video has been live for 15 seconds] ... aaaaaaand cue the SID elitists. 😉
:)
Considering all the arguments I had a school with Speccy owners over how their micro measured up to the C64, sticking a Speccy emulator in a C64 case is almost blasphemy.
Except it’s not a speccy emulator, so I think we’re fine :) :)
you might consider watching more than the first 50s of the video
Great kit... getting marred by a single screw...
Sticky pads to the rescue methinks :)
I think this needs an accessory: a thumb drive that looks like a miniature 1541, holds a micro SD card, _and_ makes all the chicken scratch disk drive noises.
Love that idea!
I think it's worth saying that this is (quite significantly) more expensive than a real C64. It also requires that a real machine has been gutted at some point.
I know sometimes motherboards get damaged, but most can be repaired. It's a cool kit, but I hope nobody would take this kit to a working C64!
when it's a zx spectrum
Well, that’s very true :)
@@TheRetroShack @The Retro Shack don' t you just feel emulation is an approximation of the originals feel , even an emulation of a full digital original isn' t 100 percent , just like you cant clone a Roland d50 synth which was fully digital to start with
@@cnfuzz Well, my position has always been that I’ll use the original if I have one/can afford to get one. If not, or as a backup the clones are perfectly fine. I’m lucky in that I get to use a lot of different stuff - hopefully that helps other folk in their own decisions :)