Y'all Gotta Stop Trying to Ban So Many Characters
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- streamed Apr. 8 & 12, 2022
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#FGC #Sajam #DBFZ #GGST #SFV
Mankind knew they could not learn the matchup. So instead of getting in the lab, they blamed the devs.
I feel like this is a reference to something, but fail to know what.🤔
@@Hillthugsta if its a legit question, its a reference to Guilty Gear Strive's pre-round cutscene.
@@Hillthugsta Mankind knew blah blah blah so they blamed the beasts
@@ControlShifty It was legit and thank you....strange I've never played Strive.
To be fair there has been many Devs issues, you can't clean them from all guilty, look at MK with Sheeva jumps or Jackie custom, that was not a MU thing, it was a character issue
Damn someone needs to ban Sajam's hair, it gets 51.6% of his hand's attention.
Been a sajam hair player since super turbo
@@ace8303 Well I went to Semi-finals in a National with Sajams hair and I just picked it up last month and never played that character before at all, Sajams hair is way way too OP
@@punishedbrak4255 Under much consideration we decided to BAN Sajam's hair from tournament play. The character is too toxic and is ruining the game.
I tried to counterpick Sajam's hair with a razor, but I kept getting outplayed!
@@GigaMan91 Lolol it’s invincible razors or any blade have no effect 😭
Let's band together and ban Sajam, so I can safely post my shitty takes online
Ok, I got a crazy idea, what if we just ban all the characters I don't like? Surely this is the best solution
If they were good for the game, then I would like them more.
But then we'd have to ban all the Guilty Gear characters since it is known that every character except your main is bullshit and your main when someone else is playing them are also bullshit
@@ChickVanCluck honestly seems like it would be a better game tbh
@@ChickVanCluck sounds good to me
Pick-bans are a real competitive format some games use. Characters are banned per set, or something like that.
Street Fighter 5 tried it. Didn't last.
“You’ll find counterplay eventually”
“I haven't looked but I don’t believe you” LMAO
"Just find counterplay bro, this character has a positive winrate against the entire cast, but believe me: there's counterplay out there"
When was the last time a character in a fg was actually banned? The way people constantly bring it up you would think it is a common occurrence.
Yeah actually, now that you mention it I can’t actually recall the last time a character was banned. I assumed it was common because of how many people bring it up
I think the last one that got banned was meta knight in brawl
IIRC Fakh (Tekken 7) was banned in certain regions. Don't know if it counts, though.
That is because now characters can be nerferd and changed on the fly.
@@stacz12 Even then Meta Knight was only banned from certain tournaments and not in the entire community.
"Scrubs knew that they could not change the meta, so instead of reflecting on themselves, the blamed Happy Chaos" -Sajam, probably
Adapt Or B*tch. Let's Rock!
But they found beauty in the lives of Happy Chaos and couldn't lie to themselves about it.
@@morgansheepman2403 “I’m just a small part of the world but plus mids won’t break meeeeee”!
51.6% think it will kill, 48.4% think that lab coat 21 will live, let's roll the clip!
Imagine a world where patches were decided entirely by vote. Every character would get nerfed to the ground because anyone who doesn't main them would vote to nerf them
Exactly. If devs left balancing the roster to the fans, every fighting game would be absolute shit. Especially with how quickly people in the fgc come to conclusions. Anything that seems even slightly stronger than average would be nerfed out within a week.
@@ZenithPotentia Honestly I think a community voted patch would be funny even just to show how ridiculous the communities ideas of balance are collectively.
They basically did this in Overwatch. When I last played they were just re-balancing based on fan and content creator feedback. Which was not good for the game.
@@AnEggShellWhite Oof so much of this with Overwatch. I used to love that game so much before they patched based on who screams the loudest on Twitter
@@AP-qu2li exactly like me. I stopped playing after they nerfed roadhog so he couldn't hook and kill tracer. Absolutely ruined him just because he could counter 1 character.
We banned Spinal in KI 2013 when he launched but that's because he crashed the game like 30% of matches and we didn't wanna risk it.
The only thing that makes the LC21 discussion different to me is that her unique mechanic distinctly changes the nature of how you manage health regen and team management, that no other character can do in the same way. The counterplay to her being on a team is still going to leave you at a distinct disadvantage compared to just playing her as well. Most of the time people want to unfairly ban a character, they don't do anything inherently different than anyone else, they just either do what everyone else does extremely well- or they're going about it in a different way that's hard to handle. LC21 specifically changes the nature of the game at a higher level on a fundamental level, rather than just being generally strong. She also feels weirdly unfinished. Labbing out combos while you're debuffed feels janky because there's no way to use training mode to debuff your character automatically, and even outside of the lab, there is zero indication that a character has been debuffed beyond looking at their damage. In fact if you don't read patch notes or watch the streams, the game straight up does not tell you about the debuff, or the buff she gets, beyond a little "Power up!" notification on the side. In a game that lasts as long as DBFZ, if you happen to forget a character got debuffed and you're relying on their DHC damage to kill, you have no way to remember until you notice the super didn't do its normal damage.
The happy chaos discourse makes me really happy that the players aren’t responsible for balancing the game
there are reddit posts who think they are legitimately genius for saying that they should remove steady aim>reload cancel and that it is "unintended"
@@butnuster354 I mean I doubt it is unintended, but it is something that could easily be removed or changed for balance reasons if the devs saw fit.
@@butnuster354 I just think they should remove guard crush on steady aim, that would fix the character for me
@@TheCvl25 HC is really hard to change right now because of his design. If you remove guard crush his zoning becomes really shitty, you can easily dashblock steady aim because it doesn't push you back anymore. It also makes his up close pressure massively weaker because he can't threaten steady aim cancels.
I think a lot of it stems from Guard crush being a badly designed mechanic to begin with. HC does need changes, but the fact that pretty much all of his strengths come from GC as a mechanic is a huge problem. Maybe just reworking it entirely is a better idea.
@@butnuster354 I think making his zoning worse would balance the character a lot more and also make him less boring. Like he’d still be good if he didnt guard crush you
What bothers me, very much related to this and the banning decisions being a symptom of it, is how quickly gamers are to just assume they know so much more than developers. It's like at baseline, we treat the dev side like they're clueless nerds throwing things at a wall, reliant on their base to tell them what to do, after we solve their game in -2 days. Thank God it isn't actually like that and that they usually don't listen to us
Fighting game devs are not megamind visionaries. They have fucked up in the past and they will continue to do so. This is the same for any developer, they don't always know what they're doing cause they're rarely as good at the games as the top competitors, they don't play it as much or don't play as intensively as the community. Fighting game community is the only one where there's so many people who consider themselves too stupid to possibly make an informed criticism of the game.
@@TheRadioSquare the only community where people think themselves too stupid?
the fuck, are we even in the same universe?
Ever heard of a little game called league of legends?
@@Permafrost1 Everyone knows about LoL's shitty balance stop acting like it's some unknown fact
Of course, it was foolish of the Tekken community to ask for nerfs for Leroy as I'm sure the devs carefully tested him and made sure he was completely balanced and not at all significantky more powerful than the rest of the cast. It was truly foolish of the devs to have ever caved in and nerfed Leroy as the community demanded.
… burn knuckle to RC sounds SICK
It would be a NIGHTMARE.
Burn Knuckle to RC to Grab would be terrifying.
They never even managed to ban Meta Knight in the first place. There were like two whole regions threatening to boycott events that banned Meta Knight, people just had to deal with it.
God Brawl was just a terrible multiplayer game. LMAO! Good single player tho.
I remember hearing that Meta Knight got banned, but then it was undone because Japanese MK player didn’t want to go to events.
@@absoul112 from what I've heard it was JP and one of the east coast communities (either NYC or MDVA), and between those two were a lot of top players.
M2k was also a big factor because he was one of the biggest names in smash at the time between melee and brawl and he refused to go to events
@@sektorackworth214 I thought I remembered that being part of it but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the confirmation.
I'm with Broski on this one. SFV community gotta discuss banning Luke as a community not because of competitive integrity, but because that'd be funny to see.
The only character that ever deserved a ban, is pre-patch Chrono Phantasma Kokonoe
Easy unblockable setup if I remember correctly?
That's a weird way to spell Street Fighter 2 Akuma.
Don’t forget Anubis sonny bono
Brokonoe 🤣🤣🤣
Meta knight in smash brawl
4:48 "I havent looked but I dont believe you" got a HEFTY chuckle out of me
3:50 as a Ky main I'm sweating nervously
“Say Hi to meta knight on the way out” had me dying
People also forget that implementing a universal ban on a character is insanely difficult. People use Meta Knight as an example, but even his ban wasn't universal because MK mains didn't want to attend MK-banned tournaments.
Funny thing is that every character in strive has something to complain about. Even Laust with RNG or Anji with Spin. Everyone gets hated on and its funny but also annoying hearing people wanting "xxx" banned
Which means strive is indeed a guilty gear game you hate every character except your own except when you're doing a mirror
@@zedwillbaws2280 "I love Gio, she's such a cool, balanced character with no cheap BS"
Mirror Match: "OH THATS SOME CHEAP BS!!"
@@zedwillbaws2280 funny thing I LOVE doing mirrors. Leo Mirrors where we both just press buttons is the most fun shit ever. (Yes, I main leo until they add slayer im sticking by that)
Funny thing is that most people are not dumb enough to complain about non-issues like getting hard read by Anji or Faust getting lucky once in a while. Cause unlike top-tier chars, Faust and Anji aren't a problem.
I'd argue noone in this game is a 'problem'. I hate fighting certain characters, but nothing ever stuck out as a problem that needed to be fixed
the only time I see the people who complain this much say the meta for their game is "in a healthy place" is right after the nerfs come out, and then 3 weeks later they find the new best character to complain about
*pogchamp thumbnail - "These patch notes are everything we NEEDED 💯🔥👌"
3 months later - Stern faced thumbnail "Let's talk about the state of 'insert game' 😒"
@@Arlo5.13 lmao
The best character in the game is like a villain that everyone who doesn't play them can be mad at. Making the best character in the game a newcomer so people will stop griping about the classic characters is a power move by Capcom.
Funniest part of the smash discourse is that Kazuya and Steve aren't top 5 and probably not top 10
Frankly not even like top 15 or 20, especially kazuya
Kazuya maybe, I don't know about Steve tho ☠️. Steve is prob top 3 now
Oof
ah yes the quarterly, "please stop complaining about any character that's good." video
Lab Coat is a genuine concern
"No Patrick, being strong is not a game breaking exploit."
Naw, ban Lab coat. The game meta is literally her and the debuff. Bandai patched/buffed 99 percent of the cast to be relevant. For that to only be ruined by her meta breaking kit. I'm normally against banning, but tournaments would be better off.
Heavy disagree on 90% of the dragonball cast being relevant before she dropped
@@bobjones5939 if you are good enough, you could make anyone pretty much work in any team comp. Except yamcha sadly lols. Everyone was pretty viable.
I was just playing Smash today for the first time in awhile. I was playing against Kazuya and was like "Man, he seems a bit overtuned." Then I figured out an answer to his air laser beam and absolutely destroyed him the next game.
Lol it's definitely not his laser that's his best feature. It's his electric combos where he kills you from 0 off almost any hit and invincible crouch dash. He definitely doesn't need to be banned (I don't even think he's top tier) but yeah his laser isn't even that good
I feel like everyone has forgotten that Meta Knight didn't actually get banned. He was there in grands almost every Apex.
Well he did get banned in some places but it wasn’t universal which is why I think most people forget that it happened.
The funniest part is when people used Metaknight's "ban" to try to justify a Bayonetta ban in Smash 4.
... before she actually won a major.
@@DairunCates bayonetta was undeniable top 1 by the end of S4 and she was nerfed from release. If she didn't get nerfed from release she absolutely would have deserved a ban.
Also, Cloud should have been considered for a doubles ban: every major winning doubles team after Cloud's release included Cloud.
@@junkmail2223 Did you watch the video?
1. Games have to have a top 1. That's not actually an argument for a ban. A character needs to do something undeniably game-breaking for a ban.
2. Metaknight was STILL a more meta dominant character for a longer time, and he was never formally banned.
...which seems to be primarily because the top players used him, while top players in Smash 4 before Bayo came out didn't like her.
Hell, vanilla unpatched Diddy and Sheik were also worse and more dominant, but no one discussed their bans. Once again, probably because the highest ranked players were using them and enjoyed them.
3. Even if Bayonetta WAS worth a proper ban, trying to ban a character BEFORE they win a major still makes you look like you're wearing clown shoes so big they have "Sora" written in marker on the inside.
Which was exactly what I was pointing out. Ban discussions are so knee jerk people will take them seriously even without data.
@@DairunCates Bayo arguably did kill s4 singles. After Bayo took over top 8s, people stopped watching singles. And she did break a bunch of rules, too. It wasn't just her dominance, it was the lack of counterplay to her bullshit.
Also, prepatch bayo was much stronger than peak sheik or diddy.
As much as I hate certain characters, I'll always try to find counterplay to them.
What's gonna help you win? Complaining? Or adapting?
What’s the counterplay to a permanent 21% nerf to your damage
@@GetBodiedSon I don’t play dragon ball wait it’s permanent 20% gone ????? That sounds dumb and is she more broken then when UI goku released ???
@@GetBodiedSon just don't get hit
I don’t understand the point in ignoring the fact that just because counterplay exists, it can be miserable to do. If a significant amount of people who otherwise enjoy the game would rather not play than perform the counterplay, there’s a certain point where there’s clearly a problem. Saying “lol just adapt idiot” doesn’t make that problem go away.
@@rezzy8984 its a frame 4 invincible command grab that costs 1 bar and permanently debuffs that character's damage by 21%, yes. The debuff stays even if you switch out or she dies, it is permanent and there is no way to get rid of it
The only thing with 21 is the debuff is very VERY strong and something that no character even comes close to having access to. I didn’t care about gt (he was busted tho), ui, or the fusions. But 21 is legit cheap. If she didn’t have the debuff I don’t think anyone would care honestly. Her other shit has counter play
My issue with 21 is the same, its so stupid that the frame one invincible reversal command grab you can combo into that costs 1 bar gives your character a PERMA DEBUFF that fucks up YOUR reward every single interaction afterwards. There IS no counter play, its literally "dont get hit by her at all". Ssj4 has the insta kill, but it needs 7 levels and 3 bars fornit to happen. Not a round start 5L.
And even without the command grab super she would still be top 1 in the game. Godlike frame data, a neutral skipping button, another command grab that heals her for free, looping lvl 1, super fast lvl 3 that can punish careless ki blasting from full screen, and godlike normals.
@@pavro_w0t719 she would still be top 1, but a GOOD top one instead if a FUCK YOU top one. Ya feel?
@@ItsYaBear Her super isn't invincible until frame 4.
"I haven't looked but I don't believe you." Is the literal translation for the majority of responses to simple solutions. Granted I'd have more respect for someone if they told be that instead of some bs
I think we should ban every Strive character so I don’t see it anymore tbh
Just delete all guilty gear.
Your spite for Strive is comical at this point.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Honestly this might be the way
@@rachetmarvel931 I truly do wish it was possible to avoid hearing about it but it’s probably the most popular title right now so there really is no way to not hear about it even if you don’t care, so the spite is just funnier
I will argue that the Labcoat 21 situation is different. Sure, usually broken characters will be nerfed, so banning them might not be neccessary, but as far as we can tell, DBFZ is not getting any updates. Labcoat 21 will stay as she is forever. And right now, her unreactable ocmmand grab super that debuffs your damage by a whooping 21% is just making the game feel bad.
I don’t play Dagon ball but I watch here and there is she really more broken then when UI goku released cause I remember that character almost got banned but y’all didn’t for some reason
@@rezzy8984 ui goku isnt really broken, he's just hard to play against since his main thing is countering whatever you do and blowing you up for whiffing, but as long as you play carefully you're fine. Lab coat 21 spends 1 meter and gets a 21% damage buff while you get a 21% nerf, then TOD's you.
Didn't they literally announce they plan to keep supporting DBFZ and release more characters as they announced labcoat. or did I get bamboozled somewhere by someone
@@WaluTime I'm afraid you got bamboozled. There has been no announcement about future support.
@@hmad898 UI Goku was broken initially, but he has been nerfed into a more manageable state. Still top 3 iirc, but no longer "the best by a wide margin" which he was before.
4:30 hell yeah, put Terry in strive.
Put Terry in every single fighing game out there, all games should have Terry Bogard.
I think banning characters is a slippery slope, but It might not be the worst thing that could happen to a game's competitive life-cycle. However, I think it's funny that the ban conversation is almost paradoxical, where the "ban the character" topic is just as controversial as the character being banned itself. Go fis-I mean go figure. P.S. the end of the video tripped me out, I thought Sajam's beard got bigger and that this conversation was taking years off his life.
Because youre talking to OGs who are USED to getting dicked in the mouth in the arcade by obviously OP bullshit or fucked up play patterns. To them it IS a rite of passage and YOU WILL succumb to it as well because THEY HAD TO DEAL WITH IT when they started out. Thats where this whole mentality comes from. Its always been there and it will never leave. Idiocy is truly a religion to some.
That LoR part hit different, been playing that game since the Poppy meta and I shit you not, 3 days after every patch the community is up in arms about whatever moves up in power level.
YUP lor reddit is a fucking exPERIENCE dude (but sun disc is obnoxious and polarizing and should be nerfed, I play it and even I think so)
At last... My time has come. Now with the banning of Lab21, I will be the next SonicFox!
the virgin adapting vs The Chad “Isn’t Healthy For The Game”
@@Soapy_Papoose Such is the joke
The "casualization" of fighting games seems to have made some players lazy.🤔
We should all come together and reach an agreement to ban May until Totsugeki is unsafe on hit
You have my support
As a May main I stand with you
Got my vote
As long as you mean RTL kind of unsafe then I agree
But it is unsafe on hit… in plus r.
Okay, I mostly agree. But even as someone who doesn't play Fighterz, Lab coat 21 IS broken....
An easy command super that gives a perma 21% debuff to attack. And giving herself a buff of the same percent.
I don't even think SNK bosses had something like that....
dont get grabbed
Snk bosses don't need to debuff you, they just just kill you
@@millerwrightt That is very true.... Rugal Genocide Cutters you ONE time in 94, and you lose a HUGE chunk of life....
Still, imagine if an SNK boss did have 21's debuff/buff on top of all that....
Bans have only really happened if they can win the game by spamming air fireball with no counter play
sf2 akuma
90% can’t even touch the character meanwhile he can 0% to 100% them easily
Meta Knight
The character is not available on all versions
Soul caliber yoda and Vader
Or the character has something stupid like can’t be hit by low attacks and can just fly around the screen with 50/50 mixes
Jojo heratage for the future pet shop
Meta Knight never saw widespread bans though, it was a few regions and iirc it never lasted. He's by far the best character in the game but not the only one that saw high end play. Although it does help that most of the characters he invalidates are awful anyway.
@@DaCrump Granted, meta knight only wasnt banned because some top players were meta knight one tricks and refused to play when they couldn't play the character. That and people liked meta knight mirrors, which is what tourneys ended as anyway.
Or if the character is Kakyoin
When me and my friend get bored of playing out mains we both pick our no training mode nagos and somehow perform evo combos on each other.
The only modern character ban conversation with any weight at all is banning Hero in smash ultimate. The language barrier with that character really doesn't have a good solution for international events. (I am anti-ban but the conversation is interesting)
I think a good solution to heros is adding add a unique icon next to each magic spell that no matter what language you can recognize the icon and know what it is
@@christianpr5 This is actually a great solution, yeah.
@@christianpr5 that would be good but they won't do it. We have to find a solution as a community because the devs won't add new UI elements
Smash Ultimate already introduced a dial menu to Shulk for his Monado stances. They should have just done that.
The only reason I can imagine why they decided Hero's menu mechanic needed to look exactly like a Dragon Quest list menu is because they were mandated by Square Enix to do so.
Everyone I've seen that even brought up the possibility of banning Luke said they should do it because he's just not fun to play or watch, like he is objectively the strongest character by a margin, but in this patch all the previous top tiers aren't as dominant and the bottom tiers are a lot stronger, if it wasn't for the fact that Luke is in the game we could see a lot more variety at high level, but everyone is switching to him or plays him as a secondary, he's not broken like umk3 noob, you can win against him, but it's just too much work for most characters, if majors are just a bunch of Luke mirrors that can kill the interest in the game for a lot of people.
sometimes devs do a bad job, either on accident or to sell microtransactions, and bans are great when characters are at 80%+ pick rate with meta defining kits and unique exclusive busted tools
Yeah when when the rest of the roasters worth is based on how well they do vs 1 character they need to be banned like with mk in brawl tier list were solely off of how well they did vs meta knight wich isn’t good but it is funny tho 😭
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that these characters are always the most recent DLC release.
Yeah i remember those crazy few weeks when jack-o came out and she destroyed every tournament, wait... what do you mean that never happened?
I thought I had a glitch in the Matrix when, between 6:44 and 6:45, Sajam's beard grew a week.....
The only honest character is the guy from Footsies.
But the character my opponent plays in Footsies is CHEAP and should be banned (they have a Santa hat for context)
i changed tabs for 5 seconds, then come back to the video with sajam's beard grown out more. this dude is a hacker
It’s especially dumb with smash because if you ask the person complaining if Steve or Kazuya or whoever is the best in the game they’ll be like “no their only like high tier”
Sajam's beard grew twice the length in the middle of the video
you'd think people have heard the saying that starts every match of the game they scrutinize
do they just lie to themselves about it?
Funny how deb changes a bottom 3 character into a top 1 one even tho nothing changed about him
I've been thinking about this for a while. It is crazy how Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 players have been dealing with Vergil for years with no hope for nerfs, but DBFZ players wanna ban the most recent character at the drop of a dime.
You gotta admit there are times when a new DLC or a new patch makes the game worse. I was there for day 1 leroy, and that character was basically the most high tier character since vanilla 5 steve. That being said, they didn't ban vanilla 5 steve ROFL.
Now here's the question, should you ban a character if they're so good that not picking them makes you feel like a casual? That depends. For instance, are you and your opponents actually closer to casuals than pro players?
Another, is this mirror match actually a pretty deep game? In +R, a lot of top tiers actually have pretty interesting matchups against eachother, for instance. In melee, a large portion of people think that the fox ditto is their favorite matchup.
The most balanced banned character that I'm personally aware of existing is pet shop in jojo's heritage for the future. Pet shop is certainly not fair, but many common characters supposedly have a very winnable matchup. What I don't know in the slightest however is whether pet shop mirrors are sick or not lol.
6:46 sajam beard grows out of nowhere
"I haven't looked, but I don't believe you." made me lol.
Siege is my main game, and in every ranked game there is 4 ops banned(should be). I enjoy it in that game cause it shifts meta depending on map, however in a fighting game instead of banning they need to buff characters to match the people that need to be banned.
The op ban system is the worst thing to have been added to siege. It’s always the same 4 ops banned every time (mostly jackal and Mira), which includes clash but it makes no sense because clash is almost never played in the first place
@@perhaps9460 it switches metas. As you rank higher you’ll see a lot more ops banned depending on maps. It’s a wasted ban if you ban the same ops on every map. Some shine a bit too bright(ex Mira on bank).
Sajam has a magic beard. It grows and shrinks mid-conversation.
I have some problems with Nago and Ram, in that their buttons are faster and have more reach then Pot's but I'm not sure if the need nerfed necessarily.
I'm also not sure how to significantly buff Pot without giving him new moves/tools. kara canceling, hammer fall and flick help cover so much of the typical grappler weaknesses.
yeah, heat knuckle could be a true grab again, but then his 6P could become too powerful, as it is right now.
locking it in now that I always hated Ky if he becomes top 1 L + sacred briarless
i tell ya, he's never stopping
If you want to threaten people in a fighting game just say "I hope your character becomes top tier" they shit their pants because they know they are in deep shit when the patch notes pull up and shoot them.
Wait, Burn knuckle RC sounds fucking fire tho frfr
I play ram and it’s kinda funny whenever nagos call me brain dead or carried.
I don’t know anything about lab coat 21 other than apparently she has some weird mechanic that can weaken the entire other team and she can do it easily. If that is true that is wild
Lab Coat 21 has a super where she applies a debuff to their opponent and a buff to her specials. She removes 21% of her opponent’s damage and gains 21% damage on her specials. The thing is it’s also a Level 1, a command grab, a reversal, and can be done at the end of most combos. This also applies for the entire rest of the match on that character, no matter if she dies or even if the opponent dies or gets body switched. Baby enemy assist calls, Ginyu’s body switch, and even Shenron revival keep the debuff on that character.
Mind you, she also has great meter gain too, so on virtually any hit she can do this debuff.
I figure I can just add some of the other stuff also. She has the fastest beam in the game, 6 lows, an overhead that she can combo from, an OTG that lets her extend combos with either .5 meter or an assist, and a different command grab that she gains 5% total health from. She also has lariat that goes through ki blasts and hits behind her, an anti air dp that becomes a 1 frame anti air that also has the same ki blast invul and also can hit behind her (which then also can combo into EX OTG if done raw or as an actual anti air) that also becomes a TOD starter with the buff from debuff.
She has, essentially, no weaknesses, which is why people are considering a ban.
@@UnknownMaster-go1lh Okay that sounds horrible. So I'm lost why Sajam would say that she doesn't need to be banned when she is playing a different game from everyone else.
@@ssensei34 I mean…she doesn’t have a 1 frame reversal outside of level 3? Her debuff is frame 4 invul and her DPs are only anti air but like…it’s not even a real weakness because she builds meter fast enough to counteract that.
If I had to guess it’s most likely cause FighterZ let Season 2 GT and Season 3 UI rock and now there’s another top 1 character
@@UnknownMaster-go1lh Tell me, in comparison to GT Goku and UI, is Lab Coat worse?
Are they ever gonna run a draft mode tournament in KOF XV
Look I usually respect sajam's opinions on things because he has a pretty sound thought process on fighting games.
But lets be honest he doesn't play dbfz like that and he hasn't really been up to date on the meta since early season 3 so its hard to listen to an opinion that is obviously not informed outside of what little he has seen. Labcoat really is hurting the game and doesn't even have characters that contest her. She is absolutely one of the best characters in the game with just her base kit, but with debuff on top it makes it so she is a Tier 0 must pick character.
The honest truth is, that hasn't happened in a versus game since gold iron war machine in mvc1. Mvc2 has the gods but not 1 of them is on every team and mvc3 had morrigan, zero, vergil, and phoenix but they balanced each other out quite well. Banning labcoat is something that has to be talked about considering the dbfz community doesn't even know if we are getting another patch or not.
Before you say that look at the history of your own game. Before Lab coat 21, UI Goku was a must pick whose defensive options, neutral control and assist ruined the meta, before him there was GT Goku whose fuzzy overhead setups and easy 4 way mix off his spirit bomb were running the game, before him there was Cell+Bardock+SSJ Vegeta a "perfect" team that could do everything. Are there any more I am forgetting?
@@rookbranwen8047 LC 21 is pretty strong, definitely a top character right now, but not considering the debuff, maybe not worse than release GT - definitely better than UI. But I think the main reason there is ban talk for her is because the debuff is too easy to put on the enemy team and it causes matches of dragonball (which are already long similar to smash) to go even longer. From some of the TO's such as Bum they've pointed out that her being around literally makes brackets run longer because not only is she on most teams but she slows the game down. So in a way it's not even an argument for a power level ban but a logistics ban.
Labcoat turns 2 touch scenarios into 3 touch or worse off of any opening from any character on your team so now you're shoehorned into playing her because she does something no other character does. When GT or UI or release 16/Adult gohan was good you didn't have to have them on your team and you could still have all top tiers on your team and have it be good.
LC21 isn't even finished as a character, she was rushed out the door and she doesn't even have basic things like the training mode options to control her own buff/debuff. If they didn't have a 6+ hour long 'battle hour' where in the last 5 minutes they said 'oh and here's Lab coat 21 please buy' with no other information such as a patch or any reason to believe that the character would be fixed, high level players wouldn't be talking about banning her.
Yo FGC fellas what does he mean when he says nago players are “doing envelopes on the joysticks” at 5:15?
Edit: First result from typing
"strive mashing inputs gif" into Google Images
There was this gif out there I saw once of a Nagoriyuki player's replay with the inputs on. I think they might have just been panicking, but their joystick was going all over the place and moving *so* fast that the input trail was making a big old scramble, that might look like an envelope.
It's a 'you had to be there' moment, much funnier just to see. If someone knows where they can see the footage or even the gif I saw, that'd help it out.
this isn't a real answer, but it just sounds like the newest way to say a top character is 'scrubby' & takes no skill
The last "Reasonable" Ban train that I remember there being in my FGC Career was Viola from Soul Calibur V. Essentially a Puppet Character in a 3D fighter with some busted pressure, buttons, and potentially safe everything because her "Puppet" covered her ass.
I can truthfully say that people are overexaggerating in terms of character power for these games with essentially balanced characters. I'm a bias ass Marvel player who plays +R Venom on the weekends, so people complaining about what essentially seems like a "tough it out" kinda problem *cough* Lab Coat 21 *cough* it makes me visibly cringe. I know I shouldn't look at things from a "My fighting game us crazier than yours" type of mindset but I digress. I cannot wait for Strive Testament to be considered the best character in the game in 3 months when the only buff they'll get next patch is a j.S startup reduction.
Ban the whole roster = zero broken characters 🧐
I remember people bitching about UI Goku saying he was completely broken and should be banned. The patch that came afterwards actually buffed him slightly, but also buffed a bunch more characters and changed up the meta and then suddenly he was no longer broken despite actually being better than when he came out
On point as always. The Runeterra meta is totally fine but people are so quick to want the thing that has been strong for a minute too long to be nerfed into the ground.
I agree with 99% of Sajam... but you can't convince me that SF3 wouldn't be more fun to watch without Chun and Yun
Imagine being so unwilling to improve at a game that you insisted someone's character should be removed. Couldn't be me.
Michelangelo needed a ban, he could cheese stocks too easily. Infinites like Sandy's jab lock should also be banned if you can easily land one every single game. On the other hand, UMvC3 Doctor Doom's foot dive infinite is fine because it's challenging to setup AND perform.
Day 1 Fakhumram needed a ban, his hit/hurtboxes were terribly broken. After the most recent round of nerfs, he's finally balanced.
Lab Coat 21 is fine. Yes the debuff sucks, but she's not braindead like Day 1 Ultra Ignorance Goku.
Imo execution should have nothing to do with a ban unless it's something that nobody is able to do for example mk9 Kabal block infinite
21 lab coat is 100% not fine. The debuff existence has pretty much warped the meta into something horrid and enhances every flaw in the game that already was struggling competitively.
If the debuff isn't rebalanced by EVO we are definitely going seem some dumbass matches.
That said I don't care because I gave up on DBFZ competitive worth a long time ago as each season the developers would fix their game only to then introduce a dlc character that legit screws up the whole game.
“Say hi to meta knight on your way out” absolutely killed me
I still think its funny that most people have the misconception that meta knight was widely banned. He was banned at some tourneys, but hes was still playable in most places
I expected it because Lab Coat and Luke are designed to be the good character. They're the Yun of their games but being released at the end of its lifespan with the knowledge devs learned from releasing dlc and the meta players develop.
Please add my boy Terry to Strive hahahahahaha
The funniest thing about that to me, is that him and Sol basically share half their moves, lmao. So I could see them just making a Terry skin for Sol.
Serious question, if Launch Leroy was never nerfed until season 4, would y'all have considered him a ban-worthy character?
I would, but to be fair, i was shit at Tekken at the time. Im still shit now but at least i recognize that at least some of the issue was just me not knowing a match up
Maybe. It's just that Launch Leroy had no weakness. Literally nothing. The only thing he was missing was a busted RD (and even then, his cane, a homing mid launcher that's + on block, kinda did the job there anyways). There was no reason to pick any other character, except maybe DJ for the electric. Idk if banning Leroy would have been the right choice, but it wouldn't have surprised me, as the character is very easy and very strong, even compared to top tiers like Steve, DJ, Julia, Akuma, etc.
@@genzo454 A fucking launcher that's plus? They changed that shit right?
@@MrShinTensei now it's around -6 on block
Launch Leroy is a special kind of stupid. Never forget that 6 Leroys made top 8 at Evo Japan. Never forget that Noroma picked up Leroy on the day of the tournament and still made top 8. He literally played a Day 0 Leroy, legit did not know any combos and still made top 8.
That's how dumb launch Leroy was. Noroma did that for the shits & giggles but it does not get more egregious than that. I'd say its fair game to call for a ban in that case. But of course at the time people were arguing "oh Leroy's not that bad, he's just new. People are still figuring out the matchup"
Honestly unless you’re talking about console exclusive characters like with Spawn in the Xbox version of Soul Cal 2, or Kratos from the PS3 version of MK9(which hopefully will never happen again), I don’t think banning certain characters really does anything.
I feel like a lot of the reasons some characters get called out to be banned is because they are very good and very easy to learn which makes it demoralizing to play other characters when you can have a yup buttons choice and win
You can always change characters if you having difficulty with one
3:45 you keep saying "then Ky's the best character" and I keep waiting for that day...
I haven't looked but I don't believe you is a painfully true statement.
I saw a tweet about each character in dbfz having a cost, and you have have to design your team accordingly. i.e if you pick an omega top tier, you only have enough budget left for 2 lower/mid tier characters.
People commonly do this for Marvel 2, it's called a ratio format. It's pretty sick but at least for DBFZ nobody can agree on a list cause everyone is so balanced/viable, with some exceptions ofc
@@galladiated If you pick Lab Coat 21, you have to let the other player kill your other 2 characters for free. /s
People will complain about anything and everything…
Ban all games and then no one can complain about games.
Problem solved!!!
Banning is only ever reserved for characters who are meta-centralizing. Brawl Meta-knight was fucked up because he didn't have to deal with half the shit every other character had to deal with (air camping beat tripping, 2 frame up air giving actual combos) while also defining every other character. The other high tier characters in that game are high tier in part because they have some tools against MK. Nobody in fighting games lately is anywhere like that. Maybe I haven't seen strive tierlists ordered around character's matchups to the top tiers but matchups aren't anywhere NEAR that lopsided in that game so I don't think anyone can reasonably pull that together into a compelling list. A character can be allowed to be top 1, even unquestionably, especially in a team game where players literally have more room to include that character, they'll pop up more kind of skewing that perspective. But few games ever fall into the bannable territory of "Can you character stand up to the villain." Especially in strive where picking up new characters is less of hassle due to the considerations of universal use (universal gatlings).
I agree with your points when it comes to Strive, but I do sympathize with the Lab21 hate cuz she came out at a time everyone considered the balance of the game to be pretty good. On top of being a great all-rounder, she has that tacked on 21% debuff with no counterplay, if they took that away I bet she'd be fine.
Yeah, the debuff is hyper gimmicky with no counterplay besides also having LC21 on your own team.
@@punishedbrak4255 Would be hyper gimmicky if you couldn't convert into it off of any hit
Whining about character balanced started during the sf4 era. It’s sad to see that’s it’s only gotten worst.
I wonder how many people that complained about sol are still playing strive? That’s what I noticed, a lot of people whining about character balance don’t actually play the game. Or, they are top/upper mid level players who hit a Plateau and have no chance of getting the results they want in tournament. So instead of improving, they whine about the “state of the game” or “not being motivated because of x.”
Ok gotta stop real quick yo say although not ban-worthy, MineCart Steve has been a problem and has needed nerfs since his inception
Problem was, he is top 5 hardest characters to master so he didnt pop off until after the final patch dropped and now the Mine Cart Steve players who have been grinding in their underground bunkers are coming to wreak havock on the Smash Ultimate world
Watching you comb your hair back, I keep imagining you doing Bleach's big villain reveal
it's not that i disagree with your overall point about bans, but the specific case of labcoat IS different than happy chaos or most other top tier, hated characters. her command grab debuff can be comboed into at almost any time, so there literally is no counterplay to it. i get that wasn't the focus of your video, but i think you generalized way too much without really understanding why the discourse in the community has gotten to this point with labcoat. no one else in the entire cast has something even remotely comparable to her debuff, and it totally breaks the rules of the game. it doesn't matter how much players lab or get better at the game, there is literally nothing that can be done about her debuff aside from just never getting hit by anything lol
Here's the thing: top tiers are top tiers because counterplay is not a thing most of the time. So you're presented with a choice, either downplay these characters while playing them or stay mad playing something else.
Now, I don't think Lab21 is any more problematic than release UI, and that character was actually infuriating. At least Lab21 has to block.
The reality is, though, the gap between Lab21 and the next best characters is relevant. Then there's an even bigger gap between Android 21, Z Broly, Vegito and the rest of the cast. Nerf her and we're back to the old same meta, because these gaps are too big although most influencers like to pretend it's not
It's interesting how the FGC's favorite games have powerful top tiers that would "ruin the game" if they were in a new game. Consider SFIII for example, the only difference is the game has been around long enough that people understand the matchups. The only time a character should be considered ban worthy on power alone is when they reach SFII Akuma levels of power. For team games it's even harder to ban characters since even if every one picks the same character you can build different teams around that character.
Why learn matchups when I can just ban? If I lose 10-0 against someone, just ban that character. Repeat until I win lol
Is there a term for reverse Malding cause sajam just accomplished it in this clip. At the end coming out with the Chad Obi-Wan beard
I never want to ban characters but I want the Devs to aknowledge when there is an issue or a character is almost a must pick for win because others are using it as well, which is the worst case-scenario.
Legit, just balance things better and we'll all be fine and dandy.
This remembers me when people was asking for a Jago nerf. People want his healing to be nerfed but IG nerfed his wind kick making him balanced. LoL
Nah son Lab Coat is legit unfair and can literally beat so many options just by doing shit she wants to do. Rarely anybody else plays the game like that