Genesis Apocalypse 9/8 rythms explained
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2022
- Another episode of my "Johan explains" series. here I explain odd-time signatures of known progressive artists. In this video, I explain the instrumental section Apocalypse 9/8 of the song Supper's ready by Genesis.
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Phil Collins keeps it all together. His polyrhythmic command is superb and makes the music sound so natural. It is his secret sauce! Phil does it in every prog piece he plays and was the perfect drummer for this band; helping make Genesis so great.
Amen!
What's interesting about Apocalypse in 9/8 regarding Phil Collins is that I read in an interview that he really said he had no idea what was going on or where it was going in that song and was just jamming to the 9/8 part. When they went to tour it he had to go back and learn what he had played. But yeah his drumming really holds it together and I'm always impressed how Tony Banks can put so many different chords and emotional build around a simple few note rhythm pattern.
@@42roadsforman44... Absolutely. Back then, bands like Genesis would literally show up to the studio. Each member would have some pieces and they'd meld it together, but often it was just a jam session. Some of these sessions can be found on CZcams. They'd then come back and put lyrics to it. A very cool way to make music.
@42roadsforman44 He said that Mike was doing the rhythm on guitar and Tony jamming on top of this, and when he came in, he said "you know it's in 9/8, right?" or something similar.
He recognized it immediately as such, which is not difficult actually. The Tony noddling on top being in another signature was unintentional and just turned out to be like that.
@@Rondo2oooI think this particular anecdote goes to the writing of “Turn It On Again”. Mike came with the main riff not realising it was in fact in an odd time signature. Anyway, those guys are legends! 🥁🎸🎹
Bank’s solo is inspired, not complicated to be complicated. He was expressing something rich and complex correctly!
This is absolutely genius I never could have understood what the rhythmic pattern was … I love it
This passage from Supper's Ready is just gigantic. Kind of trance, pure genius.
Because of that part in the song, it's a song in which, once it starts I have to absolutely hear it through, the full 23 minutes plus because that section is absolutely mind blowing. To me, it's one of the best sections of any song in rock history. Sadly, so few overall really know it.
Thanks Johan, this is the only Genesis rythm which makes me crazy playing drums along. I become always confused when Banks starts his solo!
Welcome to the channel!
It's spelled "rhythm".
That part of Apocalypse 9/8 makes me feel tense at the same time as feeling an otherworldly groove it always makes an impression none the less it's, aptly named.
I’ve learned to play both Bass and Keyboard line together (LH/ RH) by counting 1-2 (3) 4 (5) 6 - 7 - 8 (9) focusing on the bracketed ACCENTED numbers in order to stay organized in the LH. I like your RH analysis. 😊
Apocalypse in 9/8 is what I will play when the dead rise and I have to permanently put them down with my sword
Play it during a nuclear holocaust.
explaining it in waltz time; excellent. I hadn't thought of that.
I've learned it as everybody, except Tony, will be playing in 9/8: 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2-3-4. Tony just plays his parts without sticking to the 9/8 beat.
Konakol ta ki ta. ta ka. tak a di mi.
@@shirleymental4189 What are you saying?? I don't understand. It doesn't translate into anything in English. Try again, please. Thank you.
@@minty_Joe that system is used in Classical Indian Dance to say the ryhthm. I believe. I heard a friend using it for Bharat Natayam dance. Which often has complex polyrhythms.
You need to listen to The Mahavishnu Orchestra, which predates this. Phil Collins says that they were the inspiration for his polyrhythm Fanaticism.
I havent been able to decipher how that keyboard solo works around and within the 9/8 beat. from the early 70s right up until watching this video now. I can finally move on with my life ...... whats left of it.......
Great video and analysis, thank you! I don’t know music theory so as you described the changes in Tony’s solo I knew exactly which part you would play, but didn’t know why they had such impact until now, it all makes sense, and only makes me appreciate it more (thankfully doesn’t strip away the magic). Also I think the word in English you’re searching for is that it isn’t ‘contrived’, which is the perfect way of describing what Apocalypse in 9/8 isn’t! Bravo 👏🏻 👏🏻
Yes, my friend -- "contrived" is EXACTLY what I couldn't produce in the video! Thanks, Gavin!
Thank you for this detailed study of that piece ! i've always loved this part in a special way. An awesome rythm.
The 2-1-3 counting was brilliant. Even though you've heard it a thousand and one time, sometimes you need someone else to point out what was there all along in front of your ears.
Thanks for your comment -- glad I could help!
That’s the bass pattern
i don't think Tony was thinking about the beats when he made up the solo, he just played over top of the drum beat!
I never heard any part of this in anything other than 9/8. Even when I was pretending to be Tony Banks 20 years ago in a Genesis tribute band, it was still all in 9/8.
Phil did say that that was in 9/8 when he first heard TB play it. (Genesis Chapter And Verse Book).
@K Mully Yes, but he referred specifically to the rhythm section when he came in to the rehearsal. He paraphrased Mike's part and said, oh, you know it's in 9/8. They probably didn't care about the polymetrics (or didn't recognize back in their 20?).
And all these they made it at 19 old
Love your thesis, really. I believe that Tony most likely had the solo roughed out; knowing what passages he was going to hit; moods etc.. But probably left a good bit open to the moment. Collins added so much, and he has said he was riffing on that pounding beat. maybe that is where some of the 'natural, organic' feel comes from. Like you said, this could have ended up sounding very sterile. IMO a huge contributor to the gradually rising tension is Tony's left hand, once he starts chording underneath. Just a theory.
I never thought of it this way myself but good job on breaking that down. Another song that was confusing for awhile was Robbery assault and battery, for years I thought it was 7/8 but there was always a little something that threw me off until I found out it was in 13/8, a bar of 7 and a bar of 6. A lot of Genesis seems mathematically arranged but it just flows musically to a point you don’t even notice.
I agree! Genesis were masters at making odd-times feel natural and musical. Don't know if you already know, but I made a video on Robbery assult ... you can find it here: czcams.com/video/if2XjHE6ZMY/video.html
@@johansteenslandmusic3699 I just watched it , great breakdown, it took me a couple of weeks to play this on drums pretty much note for note, learning how to count it is a big advantage, for me Collins was a genius on drums, too bad most only know him from his work in the 80’s. And the rest of the guys were just on another level at such a young age.
Turn it on again does a similar trick - sounds 4/4 but during the verse an extra beat slips in....
I've accidentally come up with off time riffs before I could even figure the time signature. a groovy 9/8 in one song, and a 15/16 in another. It doesn't hurt that I grew up listening to Yes and Rush. It's great to hear someone analyze it academically. It's like free music school
@@andylane3739
Me too. I wrote a simple song that I thought was a simple 4/4 strum turns out it's two measures of 5/4 then a 4/4 and then there's a 2/4 thrown in there somewhere. But to sing it and strum it, it doesn't seem complicated
It wasn't until I started playing it with a drummer that I realized it was not 4/4. I tried switching it to 4/4 but it seemed more unnatural at that point
Nice video Johan! In the Rugginenti edition, you can find the whole organ solo accurately transcribed.
Thanks -- and welcome to the channel, everyone in the band!
Its easy for me to think of it as
1 2 3 X 1 2 X 1 X
Numbers are bass, x is snare. 3, 2, 1 basically.
Yes, great! I do that, too. Only thing to remember is that the pattern actually starts with 1 2 X.
@@johansteenslandmusic3699 Ha, yeah thats true now that I think about it, I have always probably just fudged my way through that first 1/2 second, but now that you told me I will give it a go next time.
Starts w 1 2 x
1 x 1 2 3 x
Thanks 👍
I used to play this a lot live and would be playing the Bass Pedals and Guitar and Vocals, and Rule Nr. 1 is...... Do NOT listen to the keyboards - you will lose it...you must only listen for the drum riff that lets you know it's '666' time, and it's very difficult to sing and play the section at the same time.
Ha ha, I hear you! "Don't listen to the keyboard" was the exact advice I gave my buddies when we played it. I can imagine it is challenging to play both the 9/8 and sing at the same time -- my hat off to you, Sir!
@@johansteenslandmusic3699 Trust me, playing bass and singing In the Cage was way more difficult than doing all Suppers Ready with vocals, 12 string, bass pedals and bass. In the Cage is insane to play the bassline and sing lead...two different worlds at the same time.
@@johnmorrell Oh, another favorite! I can imagine that was hard.
It's not a waltz, it's a foxtrot.
A great explanation!
Thanks, Cris!
You seem to be right about tony. But not the rhythm section.
Actually, this is not in 9/8 it is in 3/2/4 over 8 with keys primarily in 4/4. HUGE DIFFERENCE~!
1 2 bang, 1 bang, 1 2 3 bang,
1 2 bang, 1 bang, 1 2 3 bang
Bang on! And exactly what I'm trying to explain. Thanks for you comment!
Ha ha ha
It only took me 35 years if listening to it to work out the counting structure.
And is having had some amazing and some famous teacher.
No need to drop names.
Bass plays this pattern
The rhythm section is 100% in 9/8. There is no such thing as “3/2/4 over 8” - that’s just 9/8. Just because the accents are syncopated doesn’t make it a different time signature. It’s still one-two-THREE-four-FIVE-six-seven-eight-NINE.
thank you - the explanation was a bit puzzling. The idea of the de-code being ( 2, 1 , 3 ) . That doesn't make sense to the first time listener. What you meant it seems was ' The bass drum beats are 2, 1 , 3. With a snare hit accent in between each.' It might be clearer to say 'There are three bars , each has three beats. 1,2,3. 1,2,3. 1,2,3. Then it loops , repeating that basic pattern. Then explain that the snare happens on beats - - 3, - 2 - . - - 3. Thus ( boom boom, bap / boom bap boom / boom boom bap ) then repeat ad infinitum.
Thanks -- that makes sense!
@@johansteenslandmusic3699 hey.... It is good to hear a like-minded individual puzzling out the same ground. I was first a mystified drummer and didnt earn time signatures for years and then self taught much of it. So you have my complete sympathy. Keep going the more that us ugys get our ideas out there the easier for the people of the future. The next cryptic part is the lyrics and all that.... I am mowing through Erich Neumann and Carl Jung, and see where a lot of Peter Gabriels influences come from... focusing on Apocalypse 9/8 Ikhnaton Its a Con, Carpet Crawlers, Fountain of Salmarcis. Keep it up bro
I think in addition Phil segues to/from the keyboard time - particularly noticeable on the Seconds Out version
Yes, on Seconds out, Chester stays with the 9/8, while Phil is more in line with the keyboard solo
This section made me a Phil fan.
Could we say that's an incredible way of polyfonic indipendents between the "same" drumming-voice..?? (Chester keep the main beat of this part in 9/8, and Phil mouves his in three differents parts to follow and underlines the keyboard-solo of Tony..?)
Subscribed !
What do YOU want to have explained next?
go for YES!
That’s how I count it also: 1-2*1*1-2-3*
How about Dancing with the Moonlit knight and Battle of Epping forest
~ Clashing time signatures: Curious what you'd get from "Toads Of The Short Forest" ` Zappa with The Mothers Of Invention.
@@5jerry1 Will absolutely do some Zappa later on.
I've been counting 3.2.4...adding up to 9..is this wrong?
This is correct, because you also count the accents
Actually, it is not.
It is (4/3/2 - 8) by the rhythm section and 4/4 by the Keys
I'm sorry, though. The entire keyboard solo is in 9/8, he simply uses clever rhythmic displacement. He may have been FEELING it in a certain way, and we may feel it that way, but it all works in straight 9/8 time. The illusion is that he is playing in changing time signatures but in fact he is not.
Because phil was a fantasic drummer this section just wouldnt sound right
For me is not a true 9/8. It is 6/4+3/8
I guess you can count it in any number of ways. The important thing to me is to count it in a way that I feel captures the intent of the musical composition. Wich is subjective :-)
@@johansteenslandmusic3699 the only thing we have to capture is the epicness of that fkng song
It's spelled "rhythm".
Right -- I missed that. Thanks!