No More Chains! The Future of Bike Design? | CeramicSpeed’s Driven MTB & Road Drivetrain
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- CeramicSpeed’s mad chainless Driven drivetrain now changes gear, and it’s for mountain bikes too. Still a concept, but more promising than ever.
Last week CeramicSpeed claimed that its chainless Driven drivetrain concept was the most aero in existence.
Now, the brand has revealed an actual shifting mechanism which uses a wirelessly controlled ‘split pinion’ to move across the concentric circles of gear teeth that make up the flat ‘cassette’ mounted to the rear wheel.
Developed with help from the University of Colorado’s Mechanical Engineering Department, the latest Driven system is looking more and more like something that could turn into a viable product.
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We published a video about CeramicSpeed's Driven chainless concept drivetrain last week and... well, a lot of you didn't like it ⛓🙅♀️ The innovative brand addresses some of the (fair) concerns about last week's news and is now ready to show a prototype version of the drivetrain that shifts, as well as showing a mountain bike version. We're pretty excited, but what do you think?
Engineering solutions for problems that don't exist, which was solved nearly 150 years ago with the roller chain for a supposedly minimal efficiency gain that present huge costs and complication for reliability and maintenance for the end user won't normally find itself being implemented, but then again £12,000 bicycles exist in the market place.
@@amfearliathmor8213 maintenance would be simpler. Chain need careful and tedious adjustment and maintenance to get the most of it's efficiency. More contact point=more frictions.
Its a hack job and a total lie, the design is less efficient and not as strong as chain on sprocket.
Nothing new!! Been around since the 1800s... I thought I read somewhere that some scottish guy came up with it, im not sure czcams.com/video/PUGihIPRec8/video.html
So what you should do is have a bb gearbox to a single speed driveshaft rearend around the same drag but wayy less vulnerable than a derailleur
Don't know why people hate on this concept. They are comparing a finished product to a prototype. I'm not the biggest ceramicspeed fan when it comes to their ceramic bearings and their pulley wheels but this concept can become a real alternative. Hat's off to ceramicspeed.
It's useless from an engineering standpoint. I explained why in a post above.
@@filip000 Saddly couldn't find your post but as a MTBer having no deraliour to worry about doesn't seem useless to me. Additional dust and water protection could make this concept a real reliable alternive to my current setup.
(A MTBer's perspective)
@@Rabrand1 In very short: instead of transferring power over some 15+ teeth, it uses 1 or 2. It will fail, develop play, and will NEVER be as 15% as good as a regular chain. Also, 100 year old concept.
1. Loss of efficiency due to right angle.
2. One small pebble and it's destination f--ked.
3. Cost
@@filip000 Thank God the Wright brothers didn't listen to people like you back in the day.....keep it up, dude ;-)
As a MTBer and engineer I think its a great design. Getting rid of rear derailleur makes road bikes more aero and mountain bikes less vulnerable. I don't know how many rear derailleurs I've tweaked over the years. Other major benefit I see is freehub doesn't need to grow with gear numbers. No need for boost/super boost/ect therefore allowing for wider hub flanges and more even spoke tension which these highly dished designs interfere with. The shifting mechanism is rather clever as well. There are some gearboxes that shift well under load, but that's still a common issue in most of the current drivetrain offerings.
The major issue I see to its adoption is the same as with gearboxes; consumer perception and dedicated frame design. I definitely see this getting adopted more easily though as roadbikers are a much larger market that mtb and trekking bikes gearboxes were marketed to. Biggest hurdle I see is the race teams and sponsorships keeping brands from building a more efficient design if there teams can't race on it due to sponsorship conflicts. Sounds stupid, but it may make some companies hesitant to invest in the dedicated frame if they can't help sell it with the race results.
The shifting shaft is probably more susceptible to damage than a traditional derailleur. Change my mind.
@@Bayplaces Covers.
As an engineer you should also know that a chain is one of the most efficient ways of transferring power too. If this was better, it would be everywhere by now
@@ThisIsMego how is that going to be practical on a mountain bike? How are the aero gains going to be maintained? At what point does the weight penalty outweigh the aero gains? Considering theres a motor in it, what races will allow this? What market will it serve? Belt driven internal gear hubs on e bikes are a stiff competition for whatever niche this thing is after. I mean really, who would want to use this?
@@captainobvious5378 Yes capitan but in Real World not So quite because it gains all dirt and MUD.
Pretty smart way of doing the shifting.
it's basically the same function as Vyro cranksets, only adapted for rear shifting.
U mean useless
Cool concept though. Bikes were perfected long ago and have never advanced in any notable way since. I would love to have a miniature display version of this drivetrain for my desk though. Its pretty nifty.
@@aymenesengouga5944 That doesnt even make any fucking sense.
@@Larcona_ it's useless without a battery.
1:21 pigeon head bob activated 😂
Great eye lol
Bwahahahahah!!!
My girlfriend has been know to do that too
Lool take it easy on that neck. Almost came off
2:00 and now an owl loool
I don't like it! But that's irrelevant, if nobody tries to break the established, we won't evolve! Props to going forward even if this product ends failing enterely, the future of bikes will come because people like this 👍
@@mattk8810 it sounds like this is more efficient than a chain drive, i think that's part of the point. Also, I love the idea of gearboxes, and would love a Pinion with belt drive for bikepacking, but they can't shift under load. It looks like this can! Plus, the gearbox and belt drives are less efficient than a chain drive. This could be a really awesome solution, honestly. If it works well.
The future of cycling is physically separated cycle lanes connecting everywhere to everywhere. You create those and cycling will explode a million fold.
Bikes are like guitars. We can change it bue the real guys will always use the real thing.
They didn't invent this concept first. Check out Hasan Kum's video from 2014. czcams.com/video/FDvoNXPIfJ0/video.html
@@VelhaGuardaTricolor Amen
Flashbacks of riding my bike as a kid and the chain popping off while standing.
Today sram powerlink $10😎
Happen to me all the time, 30 years old bike...
@@guiserixsacha4520 have you tried adjusting your derailleur?
@@shaej8187 many times, yes... but the bike is just very old and keep de-ajusting itself so I kinda gave up and accepted the fact that the chain pop off all the time. I even managed to find ways to put the chain back on while riding using mys feet.
I call that the nut cracker
Its great that they dont try to sell it as some kind of snake oil but are approaching it as an uncertain innovation that it is. I wish them all the best
Snake oil like their bearings...
They're crowdfunding it now. Leveled up to being an ordinary scam.
"Sticks and stones will break my bones ... But they will also break my gears" - joking aside, it seems like a cool concept!
What we need is affordable gearboxes that use a thumb shifter. That would be the dream. Goodbye rear mech.
This! 100%
Ltwoo mate, same creator/makers of sram
To much friction
@@joachimrydelius2125 Probably no more than a dirty chain. We're (tbh I'm not sure about the OP but I'm...) not talking about race spec parts (else why the affordable bit), but more for your everyday cyclists who does it for fun at the weekends (or else commutes), their gear is not likely to be pristine anyway, so any extra friction can be compensated for by the sealed unit.
Ser Garlan Tyrell Yes you may be right. There is a gearbox, Pinion, people who use it say it is minimal difference from a “normal” drive train. I would like to try it for myself. Im really tired of the rear mech.
It’s very cool to see the shifting working. I’m still a bit skeptical about the lateral rigidity of the cassette though. The 45 km/h in a velodrome was on a single speed setup and presumably on an inner row of teeth which is less susceptible to flex. I’m sure they’ll come up with something, but doubt it will look like this.
The final design will probably be a honeycomb reenforced backplate to hold the rings together straight. Then an aero cover to keep out big pieces of debris and lower drag. This has potential to make a noticeable difference. It just needs more work.
Changing torque transmission drive angles from a conventional all inline design (chain/sprocket system) to 90 degree gear design as in this reduces efficiency.
This is the only correct comment! This design will therefore never work...
Good idea. Now the spoke bracing angles can be even on both sides. Makes a stiffer wheel.
You can get hubs with asymmetric flanges (like the alto cycling r-symmetric hubs) that compensate for that. There's a weight penalty but there is always a trade-off.
I'm not an expert in such cases but due to my experience I want to make four points
.
.
.
.
Thank you ladies and gentlemen
😂💦
VALID points~
I agree with all your points.
😂💦
Seems revolutionary to me. My first sight of a bicycle with 'speeds' was in 1970 at a Kiddie City toy store. It was a Murray 26" 10 speed with a Huret (pronounced Hurray!) derailleur set. It was gorgeous to my eyes. I was tall for my age, fourteen at the time, and I had to extend the seat tube as far as it'd go. I bent the tube. My father had a new tube fabbed-up where he worked and the gooseneck for the handlebars too. My little Murray was my baby for a year. I'd saved the money to buy it delivering newspapers. That Murray was odd-looking too for its custom seat and handlebar arrangement. I also used it for delivering the newspapers so it earned its keep.
Insane that i used to roller blade with the guy who started ceramic speed
It's crazy I used to play ping pong with Jeff Bezos
I love the concept... I understand what the "haters" are saying, and they make good points... I think it should be mated to a gearbox rather than having the shifting done on the pinion and ring, but rather in a gear box, either an internally geared hub or a gearbox up front.
Heavy?
Yes, but for the ever growing world of Ebikes, would not be a concern.
Solves a problem that doesn't exist? Not true, any HARD CORE MTB guy that ventures OFF THE TRAIL knows that that rear derailleur hanging down gets stuck on sticks and brush all the time, and with long cages, you break that rear hanger far too often.
Very few "contact points"... with the shifting done in a gearbox rather than on the rear "cassette" you can design the gears to be like a ring/pinion on a car and have plenty of strength.
I think with the right engineering, and enough budget, and some time, this concept has some legs.
right. put the gears right in the bottom bracket
Bikeradar: Jack, please interview those Ceramic Speed people.
Jack: Let me wear my Gandhi Glasses.
Bikeradar: Wave like mad too, please!
it's a cool idea! but honestly I think CVT gearboxes // hub gears with belt drives are the way forward. they're easier and cheaper to maintain, and probably much more resilient too- look at how thin the contact points on this thing's cassette are, and how much it would flex at the edge!! every turn of the pinion would just create a new stress riser, and if this snaps roadside good luck fixing it. I can see this being handy for singlespeed track bikes though if the increase in efficiency is what they say it is
Im intrigued and hope they come to production. The classic rear derailleur concept keeps me up at night. “There must be a better way”
I think there is but bike manufacturer are so scared of adding weight.
This thing will probably have to be fully sealed like a car transmission. That would add weight, bulk, and cost, but it would make this thing really resilient. At least if the mechanical components can handle all the stresses of real use.
T1Oracle honestly, i think the pinion would put a lot of stress on the gears' teeth and break it. Unlike chain where the pressure of the torque is delivered evenly to the teeth the chain is hooked on. I feel like they can add more teeth on the gears and pinion or a stronger material.
Ever hear of plastic?
A aerodynamic carbon shroud should do it , no debris , clean
This likely just a STEP in the new direction. What actually eventually (if it does) makes it to marketing or production will probably look quite different. It sort-of works now, maybe they're on the right track? We USED TO have hubs with 5-speeds INSIDE the hub--maybe a step in that direction w/newer advanced tech will be something too. For now... I'll keep my chain, thanks, but I WOULD like to see that improve too though.
~JSV
Well, it eventually starts looking like a sensible design. Matching the right materials for optimal wear and load resistance is the next step.
The split shifting mechanism is genius!! I really wondered how you would move to the next cog without ramming cassette teeth, but this makes total sense. Impressed with the engineering for sure!
it's basically the same function as Vyro cranksets, only adapted for rear shifting.
I assume the wear rates with those tiny contact areas are going to be pretty high versus the multiple contact areas of a chain system?
You're probably right, however the bearing rolls over the cog, so might not be terrible.
@@tubularmonkeymaniac I concur regarding tooth design, they could be onto something. I'm getting that the main challenges are; stresses in the teeth on the largest cogs; achieving decent IP67 sealing on a housing that is both durable and light weight could be difficult (I would know for this point); also, cost might yet be a big issue due to the precision and hardness of each component.
Love to know why the rear wheel suspension doesn't pivot around the pedal axle center line to avoid the drive shaft needing to extend? Can think of no reason it couldn't.
You've gotten rid of the rear mech but you added a lower hanging carbon fiber axle and a cog that I'm sure won't do well with rock strikes. I don't really see any improvement here and would make me nervous riding this on aggressive trails.
@vince orr albert right but they don't run the span of the chainstay. This thing is essentially a bash guard for your chainstay. A lot higher chance of hitting it. Not to mention if you hit the cog thing on a rock that will put force directly to the cassette. Rambling about that....
MonsterChuck yes, those might me problems for the mtb aspect of it, maybe they will redesign the chainstay, and actually make it lower than the shaft, and directly below it, so it has something to protect it, idk, I have alot of ideas
Really cool to see them not saying it's a finished product that is amazing in every way and is gonna render chains obsolete, but actually saying stuff like "a cover might be the way to move forward" as the product is still in development
With the little bit I know about physics, I can’t imagine how this would work well. On a chain system your initial torque force matches the line of the chain. You get direct translation of the energy. On this system the small surface of the bearings has to generate all that energy through through the shaft through the bearings then turn the corner, so to speak. I don’t get it. Someone explain this to me.
there is no way on earth that thing will do anything other than buckle and fail horribly on the very first outing... no matter what it's made from. The entire structure is a misconception from top to bottom. This is the kind of fantasy drivetrain that one could only dream up if one knows nothing about forces, nothing about leverage, nothing about the inherent qualities and limitations of materials (particularly in relation to that ridiculous disk at the rear) … a total joke.
Love the creativity, but no way that thing handles torque without slipping/skipping. Between the axial load, on the ring gear and driveshaft, and the necessary clearance and compliance to operate. Of course you could beef it all up but, a sprocket or radial gear is much more strength to weight efficient
Fantastic - maybe you could help the team out by sending them your calculations! They would probably be very thankful for your help!
Innovation is always a beautiful thing to those who appreciate its benefits. What a wonderful thing to have breakaway ideas at a time in the cycling industry where change is becoming evermore competitive. Great video!
Nizar if it's not BROKEN, DON'T try fixing it!
@@MegaKikeGasGas To fix and innovate are two completely different things....
But this is not innovative man
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo how so? What would you define it as then?
@@MegaKikeGasGas in that case let's all agree to live in a world where everything is identical! I'm sure that's a better solution.
The two gains: 1) thin cassette=wider spoke on rear hub= increased strength. 2) Full suspension, use a concentric BB/rear pivot like that in the Pole Machine and Pole Stamina.
They are coming out with a bike packing version which allows you to pop off the cogset and use it as a grill to toast and cook over an open fire.
Dang this is amazing. It's also amazing as to how much money they're going to now be able to charge for a bike. As all the price points in life skyrocket, we already see two, three, $4,000 bikes, I bet this bike is going to be exceptionally more expensive than that just because, well now they can charge more for one.
New tech is always expensive for early-adopters, but eventually prices come down as more are sold!
Innovation is still happening...and that is awesome. Thank you guys for creating new stuff!
Great job in solving a problem that doesn't exist.
Last ride I was on, a guy smashed his rear mech. That's one of the problems they mentioned this system would overcome.
That's like saying we should have stopped making new cars in the 70's. Cars back then ran fine, why do we need anything better?
I think this concept of a drive train is very smart, and very cool, as someone who has had many derailleur problems I would totally use this.
This is good keep at it and dont let the roadblockers detour this one possible future. It makes derailleur and chain manufacturers very nervous lol.
This is a similar approach to spider gears in differentials. The fail point is attaching the gearbox to the wheel. Put the bearings in the frame of the bike and make this system spin the shaft in the rear tire. Make the rear hub attached to the shaft.
Here I am still with a bike with no suspension and v brakes🙂
Nothing wrong with! that I have 93 specialized rock hopper and 97 gary fisher marlin.
I have cube elite super hpc race 29 (black and green)
@@vincenziojovanoski very cool always need a stable. I love full rigid
The problem is every year is harder to get decent rims for v breaks
@@themike2738 I run ryno lites dbl wall
This would seriously be incredible for consumer bikes. With grease being pretty much the only hassle to bikes on a maintenance base, this would pretty much redo city transport on bikes.. less drag, less chance of breaking, no grease, easy repair and in opinion pretty awesome looking, I’m into it. Probably be easier to manufacture on their end, too
Cool prototype, I can’t wait to see if this becomes mainstream!
Microwave if being they key word...
maybe for flat road bikes not requiring much torque. But as soon as you press down on the pedal to climb a hill, slip city.
I am ecstatically delighted and disproportionately flabbergasted with enormous gratification and appreciation for the dispensation of such a tendering and mesmerizing information in which the prestidigitation of the concurrent and subsequent matter is thoroughly demonstrated through the innuances alluding to literal and metaphorical context. It is highly imperative to note that, such is the significance of the aforementioned distortion in any shape or form will result in catastrophic ramifications to which will be the outcome of epic proportions. I thank you for your unequivocal.Idealically, based on my intellectual capacity and my vast knowledge, tactically and tentatively, right from the beginning of times especially in the light of Ecclesiastes evolution, I have come to a concrete, definite and profound conclusion that I actually have nothing to say... Thank you!🤗
I think I'll stick with a good ol' chain, and derailer.
It also needs a connector called a love joy on the shaft. Its 2 pieces that look like a gear with a thrust bearing between them held together by a chain. It also looks like the rollers and disk will not mesh quite right. Maybe if that shaft had roller balls that meshed with pockets milled with a ball end endmill.
Very impressive and very delicate design. Hope things will prove me wrong.
Hope makes some great components
Good to see people looking for smart systems, even if chain is a old good reliable one. Good job 👍🏻
I weigh 230 pounds, the second i even touch the pedals its gonna be skipping gears. It looks so rediculously flimsy, its gonna need quite a bit of reinforcement if you want any force to go through it.
I hope this becomes a thing. I was riding my bike yesterday and noticing that it was shifting hard, and I thought, "Bikes need a 'dual clutch system' like high-end cars do", and this very well could be the answer.
Seriously, it's time to be blunt about the drive mechanism.
1. it's almost a 100 year old concept
2. it can't shift as good.
3. it transfers the power over merely a couple of teeth, instead of distributing the forces over a chain. It will not last 10% the time of a normal system, as a normal system (e.g. 53x14 ratio) distributes the power over 25 and 6 teeth, whereas this uses 2 + 2 teeth. That's horrible!!
4. yes, it looks nice, but that's about it.
5. the hype is unreal. great marketing job.
This should be top comment. My thoughts exactly.
My thoughts exactley .
The shifting mechanism is extremely clever, props to them for developing that. I'm still dubious about the rigidity of the system, particularly deflection of the gear ring when reefing on the pedals in a low gear.
I’ve seen like 5 different spellings of the word “derailleur” in the comments. 🤣
Damned French!
~JSV
I like deueueuersilers
Absolutely fascinating and an incredible bit of engineering. I love it. However, the getting the derailleur out of its "...really dangerous space" being a big advantage? Not convinced. I've been mtbing since the early nineties and used to race. In all that time I've broken one derailleur......and that was when a plastic bag got tangled in it!!
If I was a single speed oddball I'd have one of these in a heart beat though!
Mark Davis I can't see it staying engaged under a lot of pressure of pedalling and flex in the swing arm.
@Reatile Mofolo The one thing I hate is the trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, when not pedaling.
@@Mp57navy Lol, you should hear the noise my road bike makes, my mates complain when I am free wheeling!!
It does not have enough clearance to make it to the smallest cog
Ryan Clemente probably also the reason why they did not yet ride it at more than 45 kph!
Then the frame can be made to give clearance
Kasimir den Hertog yes! Lets put a prototype car that is only tested in 1 year on the fucking highway! You don't seem to like to use your brain!
@@jeidun prototype cars by big manufacturers get developed faster than that
The design (I mean functional design) is great, however it's for bicycles, don't expect everyone to get an electronic shifter for bicycle, I suggest you think of a fully mechanical version for people that want their ride to remain fully mechanical.
I'd like to see someone actually riding a bike equipped with this. Until then, it's just vaporware.
I think they pretty much established that from the get-go. It's still in its very early stages.
its called basic functionnal prototype, it is a stage every single technology goes through : from bike shifters to rocket engines. Some developpment stops at some point for some reason, that is engineering. The Rotor hydraulic groupset works fine but no body buys it, that's a product that failed despite fully developped
@@simonrano8072 Rear suspension was vaporware, carbon fibre was vaporware, electronic shifting was vaporware, disc brakes were vaporware...
James Ambrocio The problem is it’s been in its “Very early stages” for years and years and years now this thing will always be and it’s very early stages and it will almost certainly never see a commercial release
@@liquidwombat All innovative products are in early stages for years. Di2, carbon fibre, Upside down forks, hydraulic disc brakes etc.
If it was Shimano behind it we wouldn't have heard about it until they had all of the problems worked out and it was actually going to work. It's a neat concept but it doesn't work under actual seated power let alone standing efforts from a decently strong rider (forget about a big strong rider) without significantly beefing it up. Then it would have greater weight. When (and if) it actually gets released have fun spending stupid money on having the opportunity to find the shortcomings in the design and execution of this idea. With a proprietary bike that will effectively be semi-useless if you can't get replacement parts for it. Conventional chain drivetrains are well proven and properly developed with over 120 years of refinement and work in cold, ice, rain, mud... and stand up to a pair of world class riders on a tandem without drama. They also have up to 98.6% efficiency as is. And don't require buying a new bike. Maybe the market needs something better that's "new and improved" because 95-98% efficiency is clearly not good enough and requires throwing your bike in the trash to buy something new. I'm not opening my wallet for this unproven overpriced hype.
The most dangerous phrase you’ll ever hear is, “we’ve always done it that way”
I disagree. The most dangerous phrase I've ever heard is, " I'm from the government, and I'm here to help".
@@Unmannedair he is there to help, he is just not telling you who he is going to help xD
Roger Harris No I think “I’ve never tried it this way before” is worse
@@cacao1312 pretty sure your way kills invention...
Wolf Hound It was a joke
As a bike mechanic as my job is bike mechanic, the concept seems pretty cool but I see to many things going wrong with it or at least wrong with it in Arizona where rocks and technical climbs plague all mountain bikers. I see us cracking those carbon drive shafts really easy because it is a common thing to crack chainstays. Not to mention how much people grind their gears on rocks and bend chainrings. That’s manageable with a flexible chain but a drive shaft that needs to be solid interfacing with a bent chainring. Seems like maintenance will be cheap but parts can get expensive quick.
Damage ONE tooth with a small stone trapped between pinion and cassette and BOOM.. that’s an expensive repair
Hence why they said the shroud. And hopefully by the time this thing goes on sale, you could replace individual rings.
Grooved collapsible bladed-fan-bushing or aperture-style forming crowned pulley ball (cog), banded v belt (belt drive chain), forward-lever which brings the drivetrain forward and moves the collapsible grooves on the pulley ball to the outermost of the concave (higher gear). No chain slip. Smooth temporary increment of higher transmission. Haha you've dealt with it
Wish they'd just improve belt drive. I've seen enough of this kind of drivetrain for years and its apparent it's not going to reach the market.
E C electric cars didnt seem to reach the market, so did planes in the past. Things change, pal
@@jeidun I'm not your pal, guy.
E C alright then
Maybe, but the belt drive is not a technology that can be made more efficient tbh, you would just end up iterating towards a chain
Of they get this working with shifting this will be amazing in MTB. Like zero chain issues no bent derailleur hangers, although this is a complex system but the way it’s designed it should be less likely to fuck up like a chain does atleast
Luddite roadies were worried about disc rotors causing disembowelment.
That "cassette" will strip a calf to the bone in milliseconds
So just like regular cassettes.
@@ska042 If your cassette resembles a cheese grater, you're doing it wrong m8.
I dunno if this is ever going to be a viable alternative to chain and sprockets, but it is strangely satisfying as a concept. It's just so elegantly engineered. Looks dope as well!
I don’t think the CeramicSpeed guy realises what a #bigdeal Jack is in the cycling world and the range and depth of his #influence. A very important moment in the history of the bicycle. 🥰🤯🙀
Legit question here: as a motorcycle mechanics, we deal (all the time) with the two types of propulsion. Chain and drive shaft. And it is an established and measurable fact that the drive shaft system, albeit the more reliable, is less direct in transmitting power and consequently less power efficient. In short, a drive shaft system takes more effort to transfert power to the back wheel. What is your experience with this principle applied to lightweight bicycles? Is the loss in power neglectable at that small of a scale (compared to moto), or maybe even is MORE efficient? I'm very interested in reading your results! Thanks
For regular gears, a drive shaft is less efficient, but this concept is using a novel gear system with bearings for teeth, so it supposed to be more efficient. I believe them, but the design has many challenges. "less direct" in this case is purely imagery for justifying the difference, it's all about the number of sufaces that are rubbing against eachother under load.
Wow, I nod in an exceptionally weird way in this video - feel free to leave comments about that below 🙆♀️
You're like Mac off Chicken Run.
* *nods profusely in agreement* *
You nod in an exceptionally weird way in this video.
I love how the video's are not that scripted, its relaxed. Just like the hill climbs video's. I miss those
Clicked because I like anything techy , or low tech, either way.
I can appreciate the engineering ,this looks really slick!
2019 was quite the year for innovation!
Tak wygląda przyszłość. Dla sceptyków zapytam...ile jeszcze przełożeń zmieścimy w widelcu? 14-16? A to rozwiązanie daje większe możliwości. Następny level to regulowane przełożenie magnetyczne - będzie to w stylu działającego silnika zamkniętego w pieście. Do zobaczenia w przyszłości ;)
The claim of being more efficient could be easily tested by hanging a weight on the pedal axel and measuring the torque at the rear wheel. Then repeat on a standard bike with the same length crank arms.
David Morley
Or use an electric motor to push an equal mass up a hill at speed.
I always calculate the efficiency of a static system hehehe
Take a look at the axle and quick release will eventually pop out as you shift to smaller cog. The shifter will push the wheel out. Genuis!!
There's always something new to invent.
Very exciting piece of tech, can't wait to see how this progresses.
"efficiency gains"
*requires a motor to be able to shift
This looks like a really fun engineering project. I love your solution-oriented mindset.
I would say, it will not work! the contact point from shaft to the gears is too small, at the moment the chain is in contact with the gears wrapped around about 1/3 of the circumference, who doesn't put their body weight on the peddles!
But with a chain only one link needs to break for it to become useless. Also, the part of the chain that’s wrapped around the sprocket isn’t under tension.
That being said I’m concerned that the gear might pop outwards under extreme force.
That has been my concern from the first time I saw it, it just doesn't look rigid enough to cope with someone really standing on the pedals in a low gear.
Grant Lauzon Ja, but how often do standard bicycle chains ever actually fail due to excessive torque or tension? Exactly.
How much of the bike was custom built for the drivetrain?
Eh, while a good concept, that shifting system seems like it'll be easy to bind up with anything approaching normal riding with time.
Biggest concern is how many hundreds of dollars extra is this going to be even when in common production.
Taken over is the name you need to use brother this is dynamic and ground breaking been sitting in front of everyone's eyes just never understood thank you
It’s an interesting idea....
I can’t tell you how many derailleurs I’ve bent and broken and I think that this could be better if they had some sort of cover over the mechanism
However I don’t know how how it would handle going down a rooty and rocky trail would it flex or fall off? It will be interesting to see
It's the mud I'd worry about. The amount of times I come back from a ride and my bike is covered top to bottom in thick mud, yet the cassette just clears itself up and it never causes an issue with shifting or power delivery. The greater points of contact with a cassette/chain, and the flexibility of the chain means it still performs well and self cleans.
Now image some mud getting on the cassette of this, the tight tolerances, lack of flexibility between the drive bearings and cassette etc. It would create massive loading between the drive gear and cassette, grind like a mother fucker.
i remember the original video, glad to see this is still going i think it looks cool
This drivetrain looks like an engineer's nightmare. Compared to a chain, this has an order of magnitude higher forces on the gears and therefore requires exotic materials to not break when in normal use, unless you're willing to increase the weight and bulk. The efficiency gains and other benefits are disproportionately low.
I don't understand how it has efficiency gains at all. It has to transfer the force 90° twice...
gracefool exactly.
At least someone is doing something right? They just making more bike choices its up to you which you want to get.
@@adirompin1727 It's already been tried in motorbike design. The bikes using it are few and far in between.
who cares. it looks cool!
Full suspension bikes rely on the chain tension to shut the suspension “bob” down while pedaling fir efficiency. This looks like it loses that. This could be overcome with a new way of shock thinking and technology feature. Also, without needing an axle path that balances chain efficiency and active bump absorption, an axle path could be optioned that maximizes bump capabilities and other riding characteristics, depending on what limitations this system requires as the technology further develops
I have read that for motorcycles this shaft power delivery has more loss than a chain.
Well yeah, you also carry more weight. it remains to be seen if this system really brings more efficiency to the table, and maybe less weight. Otherwise it's pretty useless. I mean, there's no need to reinvent the wheel if the benefits do not outweight the drawbacks.
Well, the disadvantages on a motorcycle is the very direct connection between the engine and the wheel, adding quite a jerkiness to the shifting. The efficiency loss is mainly due to the additional weight, which has to be accelerated.
But I think engines are fading out pretty quickly, so electric belt driven motorcycles which don't use gears or clutches are the future :)
@@RubenKelevra actually no. Not until the battery problem will be solved. Every single electric motorcycle on the market is a joke , performance and price wise if compared to anything similar gas powered at half a cost. The complete failure of the Harley bike is just the most recent one.
@@DerpEye I test driven a Zero DSR pretty dope. :)
@@RubenKelevra Well, it costs almost 3 times a comparable ICE bike, with a range of about 150 kms in real life. Pretty much useless outside the city. I ride motorcycles and I've tried electric ones more than a decade ago. Very nice riding , but the battery technology still sucks big time to this day.
Really cool idea, but I think it's. Biggest test will be trailworthyness and jumps, rough terrain, seems like over time or much vibration it would mess up the 'clutch' for lack of better word.
Nice idea, but intuitively I would say this can’t be a sufficiently robust construction.
Yeah just by looking at it I would say it looks pretty fragile and weak to dirt, mud and similar stuff
@@peddazz2365 Yeh that's a possible apparent constrain. But I also thought about the transmission of energy. I cannot claim that I see it right but the force which is applied to the dents of the disk is probably much higher and more localized (as opposed to the classical design where the force is more spread on several dents). And now take the argument of yours: the particles (sand etc) would increase the wear of the material, unless it would be covered.
@@BIngeilski yeah and I could also see maintenance being a problem
With the conventional chain bike most things can be done by a regular person with little to no expirence. I doubt that is also the case for this system
@@peddazz2365 yeh plus price. It can only be successful if there's a significant degree of energy saving say on friction as well as robustness. But still it looks cool. That's it. And kinda advertisment for the company which I didn't knew existed
I think If they put the rear suspension pivot point on the crank point the. There will be no change of distance between the two points on the drive shaft when the suspension travels.
Warning! Shifty technology inside! 😉
Great innovation - I reckon this concept will take off!!
Just putting this out there, but what about an hydraulic drive powered by the pedals? Surely that would be the most simple drive chain which, in addition, could have infinite gearing ratios based on oil flow and pressure through the system?
1:21 dude turned into a pigeon lmao.
Impressive shifting mech, great idea to split that shifting system into 2 pieces.
I like it, but your not beating the efficiency of a chain. It's like 99%
That's true. There's a reason WHY we've been doing some things the same way forever. What I'd LIKE to se though, is more developments in materials. Super strong materials (ceramics or carbon or whatever) that can make a SUPER strong chain, and make it thinner--take up less space for 12 gears on the cassette, and make it line up better.
~JSV
They could improve the designd further, by creating some kind of pivoting ploatform on the end of the crank arm, that a rider could place their feet on, so they don't have to awkwardly pedal the bike with their thumb and forefinger
I'm sure they've already been testing the concept, but it didn't make it to the show. Some things are just hard and a platform creates a dangerous potential for applying force which could ruin a perfectly designed sprocket thingy.
Neat concept, but the future is definitely going to be bottom bracket mounted gearboxes.
Co motion already are selling the bb gearbox for touring l.
Like he said gearbox is inefficient.
@@medtxastratospore5729 hub gears will be the future with a toothed belt for racing.
BikeRadar have you done a ebike conversion kit for it yet.? Great idea by the way 😊
I'd love to see the full weight of a 200 lb person on one of these things.... That's a lot of torque and I'm sure it won't handle it.
Sam Maybe the finale version will have fewer but thicker gears to spread the weight out.
Real excited for this. It'll be pricey as hell because it's CeramicSpeed, but when all the pros start using this we'll see Shimano and SRAM tag along on the concept, or CeramicSpeed releasing budget versions to reach the mass market.
So many haters bashing on this design with their engineering degrees from MI...Burgerflip. When this hits the market same ppl will be saying the production version is nothing like the prototype... 🤦♂️ stfu already... Be happy someone is chasing a dream doing something they enjoy while you hate your life 🙏 Amen 😂🤙
An alternative. Fit a roadbike with shimano alfine 11 speed.... You get perfect chain alignment and stiffness of a ss design. Don't know about igh though