Why you can fight against narcissistic abuse but still feel bad
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2021
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Why you can fight against narcissistic abuse but still feel bad
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Today’s video addresses the experience of survivors of narcissistic abuse who often stood up to and fought against the narcissistic abuse yet can feel negatively towards themselves. This topic comes from a comment on last week’s video:
“I get confused by this paradigm because I most certainly did NOT submit to my scapegoat role and I remember having a very clear understanding that I was being mistreated. I started fighting back young, around 6 or 7, and it gradually increased until puberty when I became completely belligerent toward both parents. Despite this, the message that I was defective and broken still made it to my core and I don’t understand how that happened. I feel like I failed myself. I feel like if I had been more humble than the abuse would have affected me less. I guess it proves how we criticize ourselves no matter what path we chose. The fact that no one ever mentions victims fighting back also makes me worried that something is wrong with me.”
I think this comment is a very important one and I hope today’s video can offer some explanation as to how a child has very little choice but to absorb his/her family’s attitude towards him/her in order to share a reality with them. Once that shared reality is in place then the overt ways of responding may be chosen tactically because they afford the best shot at survival while taking on the least amount of damage.
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I feel like a lot of people support the narcissist covertly and that makes it hard for the scapegoat person to be heal because everywhere they go they are flooded with people who do not support their side of the abuse they went through. It is quite lonely, and pushes one to put up very strong boundaries with “ordinary” people and need to learn who is truly trustworthy of sharing their truth with. Thank you
I'm listening to Jay's video again and can't help but think about adopted people expressing very similar/same difficulties Jay points out, and yet are they the "scapegoat"? I'll need to contemplate that. It's like, "I'll raise you, keep you safe, educate you etc but in order for me to do that for you, you will need to absolutely sever all connections to your family and never see them again or even know about them, you'll have to transfer to and use my family tree and medical history and treat me as your parent including granting all your descendants to me as well, and NEVER do anything that I define as making me feel like a babysitter," etc. It's a hell of a load that few understand.
@@lauriedmills7581 Yes thank you for empathizing... I felt this all my life and never understood why everyone expected me to always be happy with the adoptive family. When I did try to express what hurt me, that they didn’t allow me to know my roots all my life, I was met with confusion and even lash back from my adoptive mother and sister. Adoptive father did not care at all. And I was forced to go outside the family and find myself, through adoptee books and support meetings where allot of them experienced similar feelings as me. It was maddening.
I am finally coming to terms with it, after years of anger and depression. I learned to separate from my adoptive family and create my own truth, and have healthy distance. They refuse to understand because of their own issues with wanting to control. And I find most of society supports their mentality, so it’s hard to be understood. Hence why we need to develop really strong boundaries.
Many people who are truthful notice that adoptive families often adopt with the condition to take the child as their own and erase their history, and it is the big trauma about adoption in the first place because of the unwillingness to see the child’s side. And then they are gaslit into feeling crazy or schizophrenic for their very emotions. That’s why narcissism seems a perfect fit for the adoptive parent’s actions.
Thank you.
They were all weaponized by the abuser against the Scapegoat, eventually put him out of their lives, and continued to do the things to the Scapegoat that he set them up to do!!!! Don't brag to me about your daughter's success, Brother Dear, because you NEVER talked to her the way you talked to me my whole life. Do you really think she'd own her own house with someone constantly telling her what a fuck-up she is, and that she can't do anything right, even when she IS doing something right? "What? She got the highest score on her test?!!! Don't worry, she'll fuck it up! She fucks EVERYTHING up! Ha, haha, haha, haha, ha!!!" Yeah, you don't do well with that kind of treatment on a daily basis. He was 38 years old that time, but I think it was the first time he heard himself. I can hear his voice in my head to this day, especially when I make a mistake at work.
@@fancynancylucille yes I hear you about hearing their voice in your head, it really is debilitating. We need to separate and be strong not needing them anymore. We are better and don’t need the negativity they bring. All the best.
The Narcissist harem is recruited for the purpose of scapegoating the already battered scapegoat
In a narcissistic family, there's no hope for the scapegoat. No contact was my only option.
Same here.
I’m so close to that now. There’s only so much one can take.
She is older now and still does it. She is worse now than ever. She has been evil for so long.
I understand
It gets to the point where it’s the only option for survival. I’m 3 years in with sisters and minimal contact with mother. Lost my dad, the only one who showed me love, 18 years ago. It’s a journey and I’ll get there eventually 🙏💕
The ironic thing is that we do not share a reality with them, we share a denial of reality!
Very true good point.
Bravo. 🎯
Yes!
Narcissists taught me to "self erase" for their sake. It trained me to think that I need to bring more than myself to relationships in general... I can't just be me, I have to bring "me plus" into relationships in order to please others...
It's exhausting and you end up with poor boundaries.
This just underscores how alone we are... we have to share a false reality in order to relate... a very insecure and tenuous situation
Fighting back against the narc jerk is the very trait that made us the scapegoat in the first place.
I too started to rebel at an early age. I packed my suitcase up at five and just walked away. I got pretty far on a busy street, and remember thinking anything would be better than this. I had no fear whatsoever, kept trudging along, until my older siblings and mother finally pulled over to take me back home. They were following me the whole time. It became a big joke to them. I was the person to laugh at in the family. I would be labeled many things throughout my childhood, being too sensitive was the one repeated way into adulthood.
This video and Jen’s comment turned my stomach. It was painful for me to watch the whole thing. No child should have to fight so hard to exist. Unfortunately this is my story, as much as I don’t like it, I accept it now.
Thank you.
Haha - I did the same thing, also when I was five! I packed a bag, took my little brother with me, and just walked away from our house. Think we were gone about 2 hours before I realized I had no idea where we would go, so we headed back. Mom gave me the silent treatment for 2 days. I laugh now, but it's sad, really. The years that followed were very dark.
Yeah, it sucks. I tried to leave a few times but my Mom pulled me back. I can remember being laughed at for my now seemingly healthy reactions to the dysfunction.
You & Your Feelings Matter, & are Viable. We all know our parents are Sick af, it can't be our problem anymore. Getting Over It tho?? My God, I have no idea, bc even if we can go completely no contact, we still have to recover from what went on, & try to identify Others w/ Narc tendencies so we don't have to go thru this again. Stay safe & Focus On YOU🥰👍
@@korereviews8088🤗
I know all about goading , I used to completely lose it as a teenager. Of course my mother could be be the victim then, and claim I was being hurtful and cruel. And yes I did say cruel things in retaliation and I did mean what I said. But although I didn't understand what was happening, I knew instinctively that I was right.
I can absolutely relate to what you said! Same here.
I resonate completely!
I have gotten that too!
Here too. My mother would push my buttons and then went crying to her family members and even my high school guidance counselor about how angry and violent I was even though she hit me but I never hit her.
My husbands sister does this to him, he always feels so bad for losing it at her but that’s the whole game 😢
The goading discussion is spot on. I thought I was this horrible argumentative person who was always disagreeable, but it turns out that my mom was purposely triggering me and goading me so that I was a more believable scapegoat. And you’re right that I could never go all the way in my arguments. One time I tried that when I was in college and it was the scariest experience of my entire life. I truly thought she would kill me and then she ended up dropping me off and leaving me somewhere without shoes or clothes. I was just in a light pair of pajamas. I think as a child, you know deep down that you can fight against it, but only to a point. That’s why to this day I truly feel like no one will ever listen to my point of view and I ask for what I want, but not forcefully enough to ever get it.
I don't think anyone besides other scapegoats care about my point of view.
I get that goading. They are not questions about my day or my life. They are traps being set. Just waiting for a limb to snag.
Perfectly said.
My 86 yr old father would still try to goad me on the rare occasions he ever saw me . 'Remember that rabbit you had that broke its neck - oh ha ha ha .' ' I always hated all those pets we had around our place when you were kids ' etc etc . How sad and pathetic was he . Still trying to goad , hurt me , insult , name calling anything he could come up with even at this late stage of life . But to others he complained how rotten and neglectful I was . He has since died . I'm relieved and I doubt the pearly gates ever opened for him .
Exactly. My decrepit deceased stepmother/person will have to answer to God AND my real mother who died when i was 9 months old. It sickens me how many lives these monsters ruin.
I just feel so cheated/robbed.
I'm 57 and have been trying to fix myself my WHOLE life. I'm tiring and exhausted.
I don't think the scapegoat will ever get justice until God dishes it out onto these monsters.
Oh I know there is a special place in hell for them...
THEY CHOSE TO BE EVIL...
... you try to fix yourself...
You are fine, ok, kovable, ❤. They were unfixable, and your response was logical, natural.
You are safe now. You are ok. 🤗 Enjoy being you. It's allowed to be You. You are precious. 🙂
I get so upset because I was the scapegoated child. Then I made the mistake of marrying a narcissist and both families seemed to turn the child against me. Everywhere I went I was the scapegoat doing the work and someone else getting the credit. It is so upsetting. I was a straight A student working at minimum wage with a master's degree. I got sick too with fibromyalgia. I feel like I finally figured out what happened to my life.
This is painful to read because it’s my story as well. Now I can understand why my nervous system waited so long before allowing me to experience these feelings. The upside to all of this is that thanks to channels like this one, we can be supported.
Your story sounds like my life!
Just one thing - you did not make a mistake marrying a narcissist . You were groomed, conditioned if you like, to seek out personalities similar to your abusers. It is very human to seek out known patterns, that’s why the trauma continues through generations of families. I too feel like I understand what happened to me, I just don’t know how to fix the broken and groomed person I am.
@Micro Soft and when you dare to see that, they make you feel like you are abandoning them only because not thinking bad of yourself is like not being there enough.
We must inded learn to let it go as you said, we will always find the way otherwise we would have to live permanently angry, and this is like a torture.
The only option is forgive and let go, really, not denying it and repressing it to the point that you end up convincing yourself that you love to be abused , this happened to me, to stop feeling anger I convinced myself that I love what made me angry, to keep searching for it as something I need and love. Letting go means learning we can stop being affected by it not being angry not loving and craving abuse it like a drug, just knowing it is coming from someone else and we don't need to be defined by that,either by being burnt and grumpy or by being submisive martyrs .
Noone is the bad one, it's just the inability to accept those parts of themselves and considering them unacceptable, bad. Nothing is bad.
Like when you fight back or get angry, why would that be bad ? It means we want to live. We have the right to express it without being shamed , the repression of it is what makes us powerless
Every sentence you wrote could have been mine. Fibro at age 22.
@@mikaking3150 Well said. Thank you!
For me it was like I was in a fog to where when I came out of it I felt like a different but whole person. It really is like leaving a cult.
Yea it is.
Cult of one.
Something the enabler parent would always tell me: "don't fight, it never works" and even though she was right, i never wanted to give the narcissist the satisfaction of having me submit to him. I remember i would even say to myself as a child "he's not affecting me... I won't let him" but i grew up to believe that there was no one to trust, that i always had to fight my way to my own freedom, and I felt deep down that it was because of the way that i am.. which is different and oppositional. The abuse from the enabler parent didn't help either.. when someone makes themselves a martyr and a poor victim, and you are a "fighter".. i felt like the enabler would often put me in the same category as the narcissist, almost as if we had the same "illness". All while she gets away with being a peacekeeper. I felt like i always "went for the jugular" because I, having nothing to lose, wanted to unravel him and have him expose how childish and fragile he really is.. but tbh he seemed to enjoy that and would give him permission to sadistically retaliate with the most absurd evil comment. EVEN THOUGH I SUPPORTED MYSELF MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD, the fact that no one else did really does gaslight one into believing that it's me against the world. It's absolutely remarkable how a 3 year old can outsmart an adult narcissist and have the innate self worth to believe ones own story above theirs.. there is so much strength in that. But i think it's the isolation that really leaves you questioning.. what is so different about me? And that can give rise to all kinds of insecurities, especially when REBUILDING YOUR LIFE AND SOCIAL IDENTITY FROM SCRATCH. It's taken me 3 narcissists and many many enabler "friends" to make me realize how badly I wanted to have my reality validated by someone outside myself. Only to confirm again that i am a "confrontational person" and these poor injured narcissists claim to be defenseless against my SELF CONTAINMENT yet again. I don't like to fight, especially not narcissists because you can't win. But if i absolutely have to, i always go for the jugular. In the most cool calm collected way possible.. and they just expose themselves as the babbling fragmented souls that they are. Do I feel triggered and guilty afterward? Yeah.. but it's just another opportunity to evaluate who in my life is on my side, and who is on theirs. And guess who always shows up on my guest list.. ME!! My own loyalty to myself is the most valuable thing I have, and i have decided that nobody knows the price i have paid for it either.. so who tf are they to judge?
So, the game is rigged. Good to know! I'm so happy to learn a new word " goading". I haven't been truly able to articulate what was happening to me, but this word says it all. This is what the narcs use to make you look crazy.
Yes it is.
I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my question. It's something I've struggled with for a while because it seems taboo to talk about victims fighting back. So thank you!
My need to share a reality with my parents meant that however much I understood INTELLECTUALLY that I was a victim, that belief couldn't mature and become real to me (because it was never validated by anyone and I couldn't validate it myself yet). Subconsciously, I was forced to emotionally absorb my parents reality (that I was defective, shameful, and unloveable), and those became my own beliefs.
My angry reaction to the abuse provided evidence that I was defective compared to my brother and sisters (any difference in how we were treated was denied). The goading was a technique they used to take my defiance of their narrative and use it as concrete evidence that their narrative was correct. They would give me material things but withhold attention, validation, and affection and I would protest loudly. Then they would point the finger at me and say "see, you're the problem! We've given you everything and you're still angry!" They flipped it and claimed my bad attitude was the reason for all the withholding and punishment. All actions on their end that had led to my anger were completely ignored.
My reactive nature to the goading actually led to a worse outcome for me. Through those interactions, they were also able to instill beliefs in me that I was "arrogant, spiteful, mean, problematic, unable to submit, unable to be humble" and I still carry those beliefs with me. It was all a double bind that I couldn't win.
Thanks so much for asking this question Jen, it's really helped me understand something quite huge.
I loved your comment and am so glad it inspired this video. You’re right that speaking about the “fight” response to childhood trauma can feel somewhat or even sometimes entirely taboo. Even though fighting for myself lead to worse retaliation, I think it preserved my spirit a little more than complete capitulation.
Damn, we lived very similar childhoods. Insane childhoods.
I appreciate your question and his response so much, my experience echos yours. I think you really got to the root of the problem with your reply, with narcissists- you cannot win. It's accepting that and letting go of the idea that there will ever be a meaningful relationship with that person and anyone associated with them, that I find the hardest part.
YES! This!!
This is another excellent analysis of the pitiful dilemmas a scapegoated child is ensnared in. Thanks again for putting it into words.
This is the kind of stuff a good therapist understands.
I'm so glad I found this video. A lot of tears coming up for me. I was the scapegoated child, and I also fought back which only made things worse for me- and I agree with the commenter that you don't often hear of children fighting back.
I have aspergers, and with that a strong sense of justice. I knew my father was gaslighting me and I fought so hard, but my reality was always denied. At 33 I am still intensely triggered by people blame-shifting or accusing me of things I didn't do.
Yet I am still drawn to narcissistic people who do those exact things, which is exquisitely painful. I just ended a years long friendship after I finally saw what was happening. That child that's fighting for her life and her sanity is still alive within me. Thank you for all of your content. I can't afford your course right now, but hopefully in the future I can because I'm sure it will help tremendously.
Wow. This happened to me. My mom let my siblings do whatever until I got angry, and then I was punished because I was a few years older and "should know better." I don't remember my parents really making things "fair" or trying to figure out what happened, or ever stepping in and trying to model appropriate conflict resolution. This explains why.
I fought back too, from an early age!
I feel a huge comfort when I listen to you talk about this. I have this hidden insatiable need to be understood and knowing you understand feels good to a deep wound inside my core.
One of the hardest things I have endured was a lack of shared reality with my family and the consistent punishment they gave me for the resistance I showed by my words. Even my facial expressions and body language had to be in alignment with my parents or else I would be physically punished or verbally chastised in the most demeaning ways.
They believe they did no wrong. They believe something is wrong with me that I have hard feelings toward them. They believe they deserve to be honored and cherished despite how they behave(ed). It’s sad that in some way they are right. I’m not giving up tho. I think they would like it if I was just pronounced insane. Isn’t that sad.
I understand you! The reality you speak of is the exact reality I lived in so you aren't alone. The insatiable need to be validated very real in me too.
I completely emphasize with this experience ❣️
Yes my experience has been the same . I think if I ever accept that there will be no validation of the abuse I suffered , I will be closer to some semblance of peace . Relatives and neighbours are part of my now deceased parents' shared fantasy . It seems that they protect each other with their silence. - I won't tell on you if you don't tell on me thinking .
I feel bad for you, i hope you heal.
I understand, I’m always desperate to be understood. I get so frustrated when I’m misjudged!
This is a fascinating topic. I resisted strongly as a small child, as much as I could, but there came a point when I had to subvert my own power and take the abuse silently because my narcissistic father had so much power over me.
I have recently gained insight about this in therapy. When I go through a bad spell, what I used to call flashbacks, the feeling is one of being depressed, like a thumb pressing down on a button. Now I can see that’s what I had to do to survive. I could resist to a certain point, but then I had to push down my feelings of worthiness and succumb to the feelings of worthlessness that were being forced on me.
Having this insight, that I’m reliving the “depression” is helping me through tough spells and I’m using better coping mechanisms. The insight also helps me see I’m not intrinsically broken. I’m just reliving a coping mechanism. And I can be proud that I did fight back and that I was clever enough to know how far to take it, when it was time to stop so that I could survive.
Interesting video. Thank you.
@@MsRocksa I’m glad it helped. I hope you are doing well today. 🙏❤️
Thank you Jen for asking this question! Yes, my situation exactly!! I was the teenage terror and got kicked out at 17! This is soooo right on point with what I experienced! Especially the goading at the end of the video. But the bit about holding back the real extent of their pathology toward the end of the video...OMG!! I threw a lot of muck at them when I was a wild teen, and as a mature adult (and Mediator) have confronted them with several issues over the years, but I have always held back the big guns, saying the real hard stuff. Always this feeling that their fragile, brittle and precarious self-image would shatter into a billion pieces. I have gone no-contact for about a year now, but I always feel like I wanted to say one time just how awful it was to be their foster-daughter and that I can’t remember a single day, moment even, that I felt loved and precious in that family. thank you for the video, for all of your videos. Watching from Germany!
The holding back to spare their fragile selves is something I’ve done subconsciously and I really need to give it some thought. I’m sure that limiting truth in this way has been justified and encouraged by them (also subconsciously) because they are terrified of the implications and consequences. I wonder if I hold back because I’m afraid of the consequences too just like my parents. I’d like to believe I hold back because truth shouldn’t be wielded as a weapon against people who choose denial of their own free will. The fact that I even consider how my words affect them is a consideration they never gave me.
What are the big guns for you? Saying that you’ve never felt loved? I’ve said that to my parents and it didn’t break them, it bounced right off them. In fact they said that if I don’t feel loved by them then there’s something wrong with me. Why hold back when they only hear what they want to hear anyway? I might as well say it all, so I can come to realize that I will never be heard, believed, accepted.
I both fought back and submitted at the same time.. I totally rebelled, had the screaming matches but they still...they took my stuff, my rights, took me to the hospital.. it's so sick..
I understand.
Jens comment really hit hard, this is almost the exact situation I endured as a child. It’s mind boggling they I could feel so bad for defending myself. The more I fought back the worse the scapegoating got
Yes I agree
When your siblings go along with your disordered parent's narrative it is so confusing. Even as middle-aged adults my siblings acted like they couldn't see my mother's squalor and hoarding. They kowtowed to her ego and accepted her abuse of me as normal like it was the favourite family sport
Yes! I’ve had the same experience as the scapegoat of my Narc father. I’m mourning the loss of my whole family. Not that I’m discarding them but instead I’m accepting that they will not change and will continue the scapegoating behavior now that my Narc Dad has passed. I’m done. I will not try any longer to have any kind of real relationship with them.
@@dnk4559Same here. If I find a way to change my job far away and find new friends there in spite of being middle aged I’ll be glad.
I understand.
Thank you Jay. I absolutely experienced fighting back and also believing I was worthless. I tried rebelling and also being perfect, but both led to the same end, never being good enough for my parents. You really only can survive and if you are blessed, see the light and escape.
Ditto. Ditto. Ditto
Yes yes yes. Parent like a schizophrenic sheep dog, on and on and on about an issue, bark bark bark, then hopping the fence and carrying on about something else, or going in the opposite direction. You can never catch your breath.
No problem solving, no resolution, just constant yapping. I was a fool to be entangled in this, and triangulated by my dad, ex, pastors, even counselor. My adult children have paid the price, there's parental alienation. I left the state, but didn't really see ( I was in denial) how badly my father was manipulating all of us, he still does. " let go of the rope".
I accept my ex chooses to believe his out of this world lies, their contempt, ( he and my dad), and their bad recipe for life, I choose not to participate.
@@sh6460 good for you for not participating.
Thank you Jay, I used to behave in a combative way towards my mother to enter into her reality that I was the bad person ,lots of goading I can recall .Greetings from Spain.
I will NEVER stop fighting back. I may change the method of fighting. My main goal is to get healthy to raise my son in a safe and loving home.
Wow. Thank you, Jay!
There were so many points in this that resonated with me. Even yet, I struggle with feeling that I cannot be myself AND be in relationship, and I have no doubt it's a result of that need to share a reality with my narc mother. And as for thinking what seem to be one's own thoughts, but that were actually sort of thrust on one ... a few years ago, I realized that any time I wanted to do something that was good for ME, I would engage in this long mental battle--sometimes for days--with what I eventually labelled 'mom-in-my-head.' I would DO the thing I believed best for myself, but I still felt I had to convince mom-in-my-head that it was justified. (I did finally realize that mom-in-my-head would NEVER affirm my choice to do what was best for me, and through some work with an energy-type therapist, finally broke free of that.) It's hard to decipher between realistic self-assessment and narcissistically-imposed self-assessment, though, even yet.
Well said. Me two. Huggzzz
Never give up.
Yes, the way they separate us from our own reality makes it so hard to even trust ourselves and to allow our own needs and desires.
If you want, could you add some details about how you finally separated your mother's critical voice in your head from your own? What's energy therapy?
@@jnl3564 The specific type of therapy I was doing at the time was actually a chiropractor who used KST (Koran Specific Technique, I believe it stands for). She would ask my body yes/no questions, and then use a tapping technique on a specific area of my body (not always the same one) with the intention that I'd be able to process the memories and emotions that came up without disrupting my nervous system. (I've recently been introduced to EFT--The Tapping Solution app is a great resource I highly recommend--and it works more or less the same way.)
Are you asking how I came up with the label 'mom-in-my head'? Or how I broke free of it? In either case, I'm not exactly sure! It began with recognizing that I was going through an elaborate reasoning process every time I needed to do what was best for myself, when it meant someone else wouldn't get what they wanted from me. After identifying the pattern, I began to realize that it was my mother who would have ALWAYS insisted that I give the other party what they wanted, even at cost to myself. This realization may have been helped along by the book "Parenting From the Inside Out" (excellent book about how the way we were parented covertly impacts our reactions and relationships as adults). From there I had that aha moment of realizing I was trying to reason with my mother, and that I'd never convince her ... particularly since she was deceased! I don't know exactly when/how that stopped. One day, during the course of therapy, I noticed I wasn't doing it anymore.
Hope that helps!
Same here!
I understand.
This is maybe the third or fourth time I watch this and I finally really got it. It has pretty considerable implications once you fully accept it.
The part about holding back from going for the jugular was spot on. But I think there is another dimension to it...the narcissist and the rest of the family can sense that you are doing that. It can make them afraid. Two things can come from that: the original family structure circles the wagons in defense, but the younger family members, who are just starting to feel the sickness of the whole situation, they begin listening to you. They sense that you have knowledge that could be useful to them. Whenever I held back, but then placed a well-aimed comment instead, it was with these younger family members in mind.
My father was extremely clever. He would torment me, belittle, devalue in public, constantly rage on me, call me names at home. When i lost it on him as a young adult confronting him he became really kind and calm and the opposite of what he really was. He did pathologize my behavior by saying I must be mentally ill and need his attention to care for me. It was bizarre and very confusing. Now I look at him as just plain ridiculous and pathetic as he missed out on being a loving and loved father. He's nothing to me but a bad memory now, still alive at 93.
Yes Dr. Reid. It was exhausting. Moreover one knows of the obvious insecurity of the parent, and can't do nothing about it. My only option was to walk on
I absolutely felt I had no choice but to accept her insanity and cooperate with her foolish, pathetic lies and make-believe WORLD 😮😢
The interesting thing for me about the goating, is that I had to learn to react as my step mom wanted because I was too conditioned out of fear of punishment to dare act on my own emotion. I was punished if I reacted, but then I noticed she would never let up unless I reacted how she wanted. Mostly, it’d be crying. She would tell me my biological mom had died in a tragic accident, and she would not take it back as a joke *until* I cried, even though eventually I knew she was lying. So I learned to just emote exactly as she wished so she could feel she was goading me.
Sometimes she’d find it impossible to goad me how she hoped, and would command me to behave badly. She once commanded me to bite her and wouldn’t let me stop until it was hard enough to leave a mark, so she could use that as an excuse for the beating.
At this point it’s so difficult to tell if I’m on the autism spectrum because of how much unnecessary people-reading and over-masking I do to my own detriment… was I not just taught that emoting naturally was dangerous and predictive performing is necessary?
Had a similar experience and I’m so sorry for what you went through! I’ve also questioned myself about Autism vs Trauma, there are some videos on CZcams on how to recognise the difference which may help separate some of the symptoms of each!
You amaze me each week with your understanding of this terrible subject we have been forced to deal with Jay, thank you. We get stamped defective, and carry that around everywhere. For myself, after many years of No Contact, I'm finally awakening and the dots are slowly connecting and I can see how this all started, and how it affected me, and still does. While I understand what happened, and know it wasn't my fault, I remain saddened by the fact it happened at all. It's over but it continues. We want to fight it, but it will change nothing. May I suggest a movie to anyone reading this. Fireflies in the Garden, Ryan Reynolds, William Defoe, Julia Roberts. This movie helped me with these feelings of wanting to fight the narc. Sometimes it might be better for everyone involved to forgive, and just move on. Stay strong everyone.
Thank you for suggesting the movie. I will certainly look it up. Stay strong and well
@@reginapolo3357 You're quite welcome and thank you too. The movie is deep, and will be hard to watch for folks that were abused as kids. There are some funny moments though to ease the tension, and the lesson at the end is the big pay off. Honestly I think we are the only people that could enjoy it though, a person with a "normal" family just would not understand what they are watching. Hope you get to check it out, and I'm wishing you a wonderful week ahead my friend.
@@TheBlackSheepDiaries 🌻
Yes forgiving. Its a process, and as I learn more and accept more it gets easier. Someone else said that abuse is responsibility placed on the wrong person. For me the trick is accepting what I AM responsible for, owning it, while in my mind placing what is theirs back on them. I dont want to do " splitting", but seeing them as having their own issues helps, plus not continuing to beat my head against the wall because they refuse to deal with themselves. Maybe a measure of peace in that.
@@sh6460 Good luck on your journey to healing sh. I understand a lot more now about my situation. When it comes to someone with no empathy whatsoever, well they are just lost. These are the people that do really terrible things, and will never feel any real guilt about it. I'm not so sure about forgiving them anymore, maybe just understanding that they are just defective and try to move on and rise above it all.
Thanks a lot for this video Jay, I find it really helpful in understanding my own situation. I also remembered my first therapist who I had, he was a very frightening man who constantly constantly insisted in all anecdotes I told him that I had acted entitled or over the top, or like a victim. I kept insisting I had not, but somehow I'd come out of therapy feeling like I wasn't myself, like I was carrying someone else on my back, almost. After a year I had begin to get ptsd symptoms in therapy and was getting very angry, so I left, but in therapy with my more recent therapists I've discovered this original man was likely narcissistic. He was very like my mom. It was really a dreadful experience but I became aware in those sessions how projective identification can really affect you, even as an adult, if the other person you're dealing with has any kind of power over your reality formation and narration. It's really profound.
That's scary. Had a marriage counselor blow me off concerning my ex, I lasted about 3 months, then made preparation to divorce. Bad advice from a lot of sources, I still have a problem expressing how bad and unreasonable it was, insanity. I think my ex is a sociopath or psychopath, my mother has been hospitalized for mental health issues a number of times, my npd dad would say " dont be like your mother", so I tried to suck it up, not realising that he had his own twisted agenda. Has been a very tumultous 30 years. Ready to have some peace.
I wanted to rescue my sister and brother so that they don’t continue to get abused.
I was Jen.. same. I fought back starting 5 years of age, literally, I was beaten on a daily basis.. Then I acted like a boomerang, she insulted me, I said "back at you".. etc.. then I left at 18 y.o. and distanced myself, though not totally, cause they were old people and in need of financial assistance as retirement hit while I was still in college.... then low contact, then very low contact, now no contact since summer 2021.
I also fought back. After 3 decades, I thought I had a fairly clear picture of how my abuse trauma had affected me. I was totally shocked and dismayed when I realized the similar dynamics in my marriage and family of origin. It's important to know that fighting back doesn't spare one of the damaging effects of being a scapegoat. I do think fighting back helps one from being totally swallowed by the narcissistic swamp.
This is the first time I have run across the description of goading. Prior to severe physical abuse while I was growing up, my mother would set up a scene that would provoke an angry response from me. Both times I was pulled to the floor by my hair and beat to the point that my back was sore and stiff for a few weeks. And I never told anyone because I was taught that my existence was shameful, and I deserved my mother’s beatings.
My grandfather asked me, what year are you in college? I said that I’m a sophomore. He replied, suffer more!!!😂
YOU REALLY are the best on this subject that I have come across...
THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK!
I just couldn't win with my Mother no matter what. I never went no contact as I felt it was a God given responsibility and I had a strong conviction to care for her as she aged just as she had cared for her mother. Thank the LORD , He himself did answer my prayer and took her home after she developed Covid. As sad as it is, I am finally FREE of her and I an learning how to actually live my own life without guilt, fear, shame, or dishonesty. It is bittersweet but I am SO RELIEVED that she is gone. She was in plenty of her own pain and suffering as a narcissist and she also is free eternally in heaven. ❤🎉😊
I was also a child who fought back. I paid for it but ultimately it brought me freedom physically. It’s taken my whole life to loosen the grip psychologically. I always got back in the ring so to speak. You mentioned the goading, that it is how I ultimately learned what type of personality I might be dealing with. I looked up this phenomenon and came up with the answer that you may never know what this persons diagnosis is. I didn’t have to though because once I applied what I had learned I had succeeded in freeing myself. I still don’t know . It doesn’t have to be diagnosed for me to know it’s poison to me.
It's taken a long while to loosen the grip psychologically for me as well.
Your channel is very underrated. Keep up the good work. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
I too fought and fought against it. But my rebellious refusal to accept the status quo was used against me as a way to criticise, belittle, deride and isolate me even further. And I still don't really understand why they were driven to do this to me. Why me, why at all?
The simple answer is that they didn’t want to self reflect on their behavior and the people they truly were, so they made you out to be a villain instead with all their own bad qualities they refused to see in themselves. It’s very sick.
I have no idea what drove them to do this to me as well.
@@jnl3564 yea it is very sick.
I fought hard for as long as I can remember. It never changed anything. I was so gaslit as a child I already thought something was terribly wrong with me and that I was completely undeserving of happiness by 2nd- or 3rd grade. In my teens the fight lead to rebellion against my parents in all things. I had a lot of self destructive behaviors; alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. I just gave my mother more fuel to belittle me while only damaging myself more. My parents never showed any actual concern for my self harming behaviors. They just got to make more fun of me, calling me a slut etc. When bad things happened to me they said I deserved it.
Today I not only have to deal with the damage they imposed on me but also the damage of my own poor choices.
Did anyone else have this experience?
I know this was a month ago on a year old video but yes I had that experience. They were extremely religious so I just did ever unsafe thing they ever warned against. There was never any concern for my well being. It was just more proof that they were right about me according to them.
Yes, I understand completely.
Goading followed me into adulthood, and ended my career. Last year I was in a Day Hospital group, apparently running over 6 years now. The doctor and his longtime patient-friends smear/gaslight/goad/scapegoat others *who they don't like* into leaving. I watched others getting put through the exact abuses I did for decades, and I began to learn about narcissism by myself. I left that group assertively instead of angrily; only ashamed of them instead of myself (as was usual).
Another big difference--I've since completed a letter of complaint, with encouragement from supportive staff (who get stuck with group's fallout traumatized/hospitalized patients). I'm now in the hospital's Trauma Therapy pilot project, and their Patient Relations department will get my letter this week.
Lately, videos like yours have been helping me pinpoint specific personal details as well.
Thank you!
I completely resonate with not being able to go for the jugular. My narcissistic parents drove me nuts, but I could never confront them about the violence that erupted from my father. It was pure sociopathic terror like the opening of the gates of hell. He'd stuff it back in and later recall things as me being 'in a snit'. I knew I couldn't talk openly about that. They'd head that off, and if any of it got out, it was evidence of me being vengeful or manipulative.
Thank you for all you do 🌸
Of course, Jen. Fighting Back Doesn't Work with these ppl.
The goading part struck a chord with me.
My father got on my case about chores, so I improved that to get him off my back.
Then, it was my grades, so I turned myself inside out to get on the honor roll and stay there.
This got me into perfectionism, which really stressed me out.
In my perfectionism, I lost weight so I wouldn’t have any fat on me. Then, he got on me for that.
So, I grudgingly regained the weight. I just wanted my father to love me, or to at least accept me and stop bullying me.
So, there I was, doing everything right for him, but then he’d start picking fights with me and then I’d get punished for arguing with him.
After a while of the goading, I finally realized that there was just no pleasing that man.
Then, I stopped fearing him….he always got a twisted thrill from inflicting fear and pain onto me.
Then I started to see that I had nothing to lose, and that gave me the courage to flee his reign of terror.
My mother went out of her way to stalk me, and I told her to stop but she persisted. A lawyer told me there wasn’t enough proof for the court to get a restraining order on her.
Eventually, I wrote out exactly everything I ever wanted to tell her, very mean, threatening and insulting stuff that I intended to do. I had to turn the tables and be the one to go after her and have her fear me and have her feelings hurt and want nothing to do with me, because I was by then much too old to keep avoiding, and I called her and got her voice mail and read her everything I wrote and in a very menacing tone of voice. Like her stalking messages, I didn’t identify myself, but she knew who it had to be.
That is a very good point. I fought back from a young age, in many ways.
I refused to eat most foods from age 1 year old, driving my narcissistic mother crazy. I would run away from home at age 4.
I loved my mother and acted meek and easy most of the time but went as far as I could to fight back without raising too much suspicion. I found out about this much later from witnesses but I remember how I resisted the abuse from age 15.
However, my mother's voice was introjected in my head all the same and I took it for my own for the longest time...Guilt was ever present even though I couldn't stand to feel that way. Dr Reid is so right, the need to share the same reality as my mother was vital and I ran to her often when in need because she would go to great lengths then to support me. Little did I know that this was to aggravate the insane enmeshment my family was in.
Feelings of being not good enough and defective and ungrateful were engraved in my UNCONSCIOUS mind, unbeknownst to me.
It makes sense now.
Goading is a new word for me. But i experienced it from my guardians..their children joined in
I’ve dreamt about putting my dad in a room where he has to take accountability for all of his narcissistic abuse to his three adult children. As well as, admit his role to intentionally harm us to prop himself up!
Would be nice if they accepted accountability for anything.
Fighting back was not a choice, at a certain point the abuse would overload and i would go fully feral and defend myself by any means necessary, usually at the top of my lungs bc that was the only way to be heard...having a swiss steel wit and a damascus steel tongue that would leap out in response to threats because i am petite and female. Basically surviving as predator bait since 9yo...respect sister, we all did what we had to to be here. Alive and recovering🥰
*Smiles🤘
Learning To ReFrame/RePurpose Inner Critic, as Well as the Inner Stubborn LiL Brat 😄
Hi Jay, this is so very helpful. I find your explanations really clear and simple yet deeply rich. That's quite a skill and this post has really clarified something for me.
I was definitely goaded. I eventually supressed and turned my anger inward. I am doing parts therapy. I have one part trying to be a perfect little guy that will eventually please the narc. I have another that rebels and then self destructs. Both of these parts fight each other. But through Jay and my therapist I have realized the are both reactions to a false belief that I am worthless. That is the core wound.
not just the chil but also the adult. i was scapegoated till they both died at 80. it was impossible. the better i did the more i was put down .. not just by parents but by all brainwashed siblings. i speak to none of them now. i have always been alone and at 66 still am. sadness is deep and difficult to escape
I understand.
Wow this is exactly what I’ve been wondering about all day. Like what if they’re right? What if I actually am the problem in the family? What if I’m actually the narcissistic family member?
I have similar thoughts. I guess I have some work to do on myself. If I am really honest - yes, I have Narcissistic traits but I don't have NPD.
I too have wondered this exact thing that I am the problem in this life.
@@moirabij734 same.
Thanks for putting words to our experiences.
When I was like 13 or something I told to myself "I hate being here, I hate my parents, but here I have foods, a roof and a bed. Things that I can't get on my own. They will pay my studies, so I'll be good ultil then"
Very wise thinking for a 13 yr old!
I understand.
It totally resonates with me that I could never really let her completely "have it" so to speak. I knew that in fact , she was fragile and ill. Therefore, I really didn't know if she could bear it and I truly didn't desire to hurt her so YES, many times I used restraint with her as I believe she did with me. It was all so painful 💔 😢😮❤
“…can’t go for the jugular….because the repercussions would be unsurvivable.” Amen!
My dad said that he used to hold us while talking to bugs crawling up the tree. Then he laughed about how stupid it was that we as young children talked to the bugs he pointed towards.
Ppl around you n the so called society are the culprits too!
They are judgemental about what they don't understand and have not gone through in their lives at all.
As the victims we need not feel guilty for speaking our truth.
So called normal functioning ppl must learn to seek the truth n develop acceptance respect n compassion for others experiences too!
It's not a victim's responsibility to explain n understand everyone who don't understanding them.
There's no need. It's high time this should change.
It should be vice a versa!
There's no need of the society then if they can't make survivors of the abuse feel safe!
Simply they are not normal too!
They can't run away from their duty collectively!
But they know they can run away and even add to other's pain - live pretty smug in their role.
I see what you are saying.
This is absolutely spot on. I’ve always said I’m ‘surviving’ and NOT living. It’s always waiting for the next argument, the phone call, even my ringtone sends my heart racing. Sometimes I can feel my mum’s mind ‘brewing’. It’s living on the edge but not in a good way!
I’m 42 and mine has revolved around my mum. I’m extremely lucky to have a great partner who is supportive, and who I share 2 lovely children with, but life could’ve been more up to this point. I sometimes grieve the life we haven’t lived, as a family.
They say you learn from your parents how to parent, I’ve chosen the polar opposite. I’ve broken that cycle of narc abuse because I couldn’t put my children through that pain.
I was adopted at 9, bio mum died when I was 7 so I had good maternal brain development, and therapy for the loss. I was also willing and ready to head to a new family. But as soon as I was placed there (brother too-golden child) I was the scapegoat, the one with faults. If I laughed about anything I was shut down, if happy, developing any sense of myself, shut down. Everything - shut down. My mum wanted me to share her reality (still does) and I choose not to. As a child I was so aware that she wasn’t ‘right’ in her head. My brother wouldn’t say anything. My adoptive dad enabled the abuse. He once told me to ‘f’ing get out of my house’ because my mum was abusing ME! No one in my family said ANYTHING! But I still battle on with the person that should’ve been my cheer leader.
My adoptive mum’s mother gave her up at 2-3 years but was still in her life and treated her terribly, which she hasn’t got over and it’s projected onto me. Sad story, but quite a common one I’m starting to hear.
My sister and brother would say that I was the one who left the family. I plead my case to them about the subhuman father yet they refused to accept it. 😅❤
I feel bad about myself without my beautiful puppy Lilly!!! I miss her cuz she loved me unconditionally! The subhuman was so jealous of her that he undermined my ability to protect her by giving me bad advice! Also, I have blurry boundaries from the subhuman, diabolical dad.
this youtube vid changed my life
The bad therapist reinvents this.
No, if the person'd been more humble, it would've made things WORSE. My brother fought back, and though he certainly was made to pay for his non-compliance, the abuse affected him less than I, who did not fight back and just retreated. It'll affect you regardless, but not fighting back, you'll have regrets wishing you would've, even a lifetime of them depending on your age. There is no "perfect" way of dealing with these things, OP, that's the narcissistic illusion. You dealt with the abuse the best way you could at the time, and it is your parents who should feel bad for being abusers, not you for fighting back.
I applaud you for recognising your abuse and defending yourself, as you've correctly stated, most do not do that, so it's even more astounding that you had the strength of character to do so. Stay strong and keep up the good fight, literally hehe.
Is there still support groups he was mentioning today? I just found this CZcams channel in my search to finding out why my parents and family were treating me this way and if there was a name for it. I have finally figured out that I was the scapegoat and want to seek treatment
THANK YOU FOR THIS ONE. So accurate... And clear. :( I too feel I fought back all the time.
yeah, the university I attended had a required course that grouped students according to their race, the instructor labeled some of the students as having "deformed psyches," also, the program wasn't a psychology program yet the instructor thought it was his right to work on the student's "sense-of-self" he was a very warped person, I dug up his dissertation and it was about how to do coercive assimilation
I feel seen and validated by all your videos.. thank you ❤
This feeling bad lasts a lifetime - and we try again and again to have some sort of "relationship" with them [the malignant narcs and their successors] with the same devastating result time and again. Then they condemn and mock your reality. Thank you Jay. Do you have a video for the scapegoated persons- now seniors?
I’m in my mid fifties. I’m finally facing that my siblings are likely just like my Narc father. My heart is broken but it has been for a long time now. I’m working on giving up hope that my siblings will ever see
me for who I am.
@@dnk4559 I understand about the siblings.
@@starseeds8121 thank you for commenting. This made me realize that a year has gone by and as I wrote in my journal this morning I realized that I’m finally come to a full acceptance. Earlier this year I bought into the future faking when one sibling wanted to know what books I would recommend for trauma recovery and said she was starting therapy. Nothing happened other than I opened myself up for more abuse. It’s so hard to let the people go that I love so much but I have no other choice. They have pushed me out of their lives.
@@dnk4559 I have had to let them all go as well and it is tough.
I hear you... we feel small all our lives - for other's maneuvering . This is just unacceptably evil because it is done on own.
Thank You Jay. You bring up specifics that I experienced with a narc father, as did the questioner! The sense of having fought back and lost. Every Damn Time. And that it didn't keep you from thinking I'm a POS anyway. The boundary we set on our own anger that we won't cross with our narc. They are always punching and we are counter punching right on the sidewalk with them. We're just trying to avoid the further shame of taking it into the gutter.
I always taught I was basically weak since my fighting it was useless I have now some compassion if the fighter in my which honestly was not able to win a situation so against a small child .I know I became scapegoated as the emotional aggressive person and finally I turned on to myself out of sheer powerlessness
Even while I'm listening to this I still feel the residue of so many narcissistic people the provoking me since I was young. I felt unbalanced and down a lot of my life even if I have a good heart.
U totally know the reality. U can't fight to ur full force even if it is small...they r already killing u for no reasson.
Agreed.
Trust must be earned it takes courage to be subjected to narcissistic abuse from family and co workers. I am painfully aware of wha is going on around me, trying to work on a plan to heal and cope. 😢
Narcissist parents are not just toxic; they are predatory. They need a scapegoat as receptacle for their intolerable feelings. The only difference between them and pedophiles are the abusive actions.
I agree.
The most intense nightmare I had in the past few years included slapping my NPD mother back and forth across the face with all the power and weight I could put into it (and I am an athlete). She would not stop belittling and badgering me, as though the brutal force I was using was not even present. I realized the hitting was my verbally fighting back and demanding of her to become self-aware. She cannot change and will never stop no matter what I do. That was the message. (In waking life when multiple different men have physically attacked me in five different situations, I just went limp. I don’t even try to fight back. I’m not violent.) Of course, when I woke up from that nightmare, I asked myself how I could be so vicious. It still makes me feel bad to think about it and it didn’t even actually happen. I try to retain the image anyhow, especially when she is trying to escalate me with inflammatory willful misrepresentation/misinterpretation.
It is not vague at all! This is the first time I've heard someone mentioning this. I used to loathe myself for not saying the final words for fear of 'undoing' him. It still feels like I'm being dishonest. Like how can I judge his behaviour when I'm a dishonest person myself? I guess I'll have to work at making peace within myself through that inner conflict instead of fruitlessly working on sharing a reality with him. Thank you so much for your work!
Thank you so much 🙏
well done! You continue to add a depth of understanding around these dynamics that is quite sophisticated! Thank you so much!
I'm glad that you see the need of doing whatever needed to be done at the time to survive is first morally neutral (it just is what it is), but also as a sign of strength and resilience. Yes, surviving abuse is hard, but we did it.
Thank you for putting it in these terms. We did what we needed to do with the limited power and limited worldview we had at the time.
I started fighting backtoo when I was young...I feel just like that person
Part of the difficulty is that it takes a while to rewire a brain. Brains are fortunately "plastic," so creating new ways of thinking and relating is something we can do on a neurological level. But... The longer and harder a brain has been using the same pathways, the more likely it is to use those ones. So, as I've progressed through my own healing, it has sort of started to dawn on me that even with fighting it, even with running away ... The reason why no contact has been working better is because I'm not constantly using those roads. Which makes it easier to conciously pave new ones.
And that is also part of why it feels bad, I think. Just because you've fought it and you have self efficacy doesn't mean your neurons won't be zipping down those power lines without you from time to time. Especially when it started in childhood and that infrastructure took years to create.
So it could even take years to feel good. Probably not as long to undo as it took to make.... But certainly longer than you'd hope.
Oh god ..even if I have fought this it is because I have already shared that harmful reality of crooked connected Ness..I was always aware snd scared that my narc was very intelligent and knew my weakness .she could always hit my weak spot and hit it so hard
Thank you so much, Sir!
Very helpful 🙏
Yes explained so well,
This! Thank you Jay (and Jen)
Goading is exactly what I experienced from my father’s proxy my older brother. I was the family joke.