Mean Girls - Tracy Vaillancourt | Maiden Mother Matriarch 73
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2024
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My guest today is Tracy Vaillancourt, professor in the Faculty of Education and the School of Psychology at the University of Ottawa, and also the Canada Research Chair in School-Based Mental Health and Violence Prevention. We spoke about aggression among teenage girls, how boys and girls differ in their aggressive tactics, why women dislike overt sexiness in other women, and why female intra-sexual competition peaks during women's most fertile years.
In the extended part of the episode, we also spoke about the differences in bullying behaviour between men and women, why some female friendships are immune to conflict, and why attractive girls are most likely to be bullied at school.
2:22 Female competition and teenage girls
5:04 Tearing down hierarchies
8:00 What other hierarchies do girls do this in?
9:30 To what extent do they realise they are doing this?
14:49 Managing girls emotional health
17:02 How do you protect the tall poppies?
19:31 How do boys differ?
21:11 What’s going on here evolutionarily?
24:36 Improving cohesion
30:00 What personality traits feed into bitchiness?
31:05 Do women get nicer about this?
32:42 Competing for a mate or caring for children
33:11 Moral disengagement
36:20 Sexy confederate study
39:20 Dressing more conservatively
41:15 Are older women more tolerant?
42.25 Boastfulness
44.00 Donald Trump
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Bullying the best player on your team sounds like a really great strategy for losing lol
Potentially a solution for the comparison issue is a sort of benevolent stoicism. When someone is doing better than you, the thought process would be: “good for them”, I have zero control over them, how can I do better.”
The initial positive thought process, is totally something that can be trained.
As a woman with C-PTSD due to the bullying I received during school years, I’m glad there are coaches trying to make a difference. In my time, my parents asked for help and all that the professionals, people from school and coaches told them to force me to behave “ladylike” because no one likes a competitive woman or even a sports woman cause sports were for the men (I competed playing handball and was the first one to grow physically compared to my teammates at the age of 12)
When she said we try to not create hierarchies I thought to myself as soon as you choose to prioritize not having a hierarchy that ideal just went straight to the top of her hierarchy 😂
Omg I do this comparison thing all the time without even realizing it!! How messed up? I'm a psychotherapist and I have never realized this. This is such an important discussion!!
Absolutely great guest - Dr. Tracy Vaillancourt is incredible!
I've always absolutely refused to participate in girl cliques, mean girl stuff. In grade school I made a point of befriending all the outcast kids, male and female. Later in life, I had SO MUCH TROUBLE working with women who were always putting sticks in my spokes. I prefer working with men for that reason, they can be cruel but everything is up front, not hidden. I also appreciate clear hierarchies and loyaltyl. If someone shows me they are better than me at _____, I immediately subordinate or apprentice myself and, thrilled, I attempt to learn from them.
Same. But then I have been searching myself for bitchy behaviour since 2022 to try and figure this unpleasant bitchy thing with other women out and see what I am doing that's bitchy, and well I see my own bitchiness as well in retaliation to people who try to sabotage me. I also see how I project my resentment of past bitchy traumas onto women. But like you I don't feel bothered when someone is better than me. I subordinate as you describe and be humbled and be open to learning from their expertise/skill and I like to encourage people as well. Unless they sabotage me, then unfortunately my past traumas come up and it's game on. I am finding a better way.
Another great guest, honest and insightful
Weird, she kind of said that egalitarianism is the problem (vs male hierarchy) and then said more egalitarianism is the answer. So, just try harder and somehow undo human nature? Hmm. I suppose patriarchal hirrarchy is not in the overton window 😊
I agree that women show disdain for other women that are dressing sexier than the “threshold.” However I do think that’s good for society. Going further and further down that path leads to the abuse of women. We’re living that right now with all the free love and sex rhetoric.
I think this was better regulated in previous eras.
Agreed, the guest framed it as a negative, but im sure there is value from women doing this.
I always see this as a competition thing: if there is a women presenting more overtly sexy than I am comfortable with presenting myself, I basically have three optiones: 1) give up, get outcompetete and fall by the wayside (or settle for less) 2) go up to the same level, even though I am not comfortable with it 3) stop her from presenting so overtly sexy. And I know where I'm gonna put my efforts into.
@@FeaharnThe enate reason women don't like other women being too overtly sexy is because it drives down the value of sex, of women, and of pair bonding in general.
Not just sports.. Definitely in academic performance, I experienced that myself. The boys competed with me but respectfully
I have seen it the most in social settings
Good to hear a Canadian academic be clear about sex differences.
Excellent discussion! ❤
This in NOT typically how female athletes behave unless it’s a brand new thing. In all the dozens of teams I’ve played on from elementary school through my 20s, we were delighted to have a star player (looking at you, Athena, you were such a soccer badass!). It’s certainly not universal.
This really explains feminism.
Yes it does.
Disliking women who dressed sexy is true, albeit in my experience its nuanced. Location and context matters. I expected a women to be dressed sexy if out on a friday night in a club. But if shes showing too much flesh or silhouette of body out in normal life, i actually find it distasteful. I should say too that there is a difference between beauty and sexy. If you're beautiful you should enjoy it! But if a women is showing up overtly sexy in a place that doesn't call for that mode of dressing eg school pick up, especially where there are other women's husbands, my only conclusion is that she wants to feel desired by other peoples spouses and to make the women around her feel jealous, and that to me is just wrong. If she is willing to 'violate the norm' of normal body covering attire, then what other norma is she willing to partake in (eg direct flirting with someone elses husband, cheating etc)
IMO if you think that then you're either an insecure woman or you're in an insecure relationship. I'm not keen on women dressing OTT sexy but that is because I think it cheapens women. I can't say I've ever thought that women dressing sexy are doing so with a view of stealing other people's partners.I'm sorry but I find that mentality pathetic and weak. Women can't help it if men look at them and that includes other women's partners. To me, if you have a faithful partner then you have nothing to fear. Something we don't talk about near enough is women's attitude towards women who are attractive and desirable to men. Women can be quite insecure around not just attractive women but attractive women with a great sense of self worth. No idea why some women are like this but they are.
This is not a new concept. Gone with the Wind was probably written a century ago. Early in the book Scarlett O Hara wears an evening gown to a daytime BBQ knowing she is breaking the social conventions.
@grannyannie2948 that's the perfect example. Incidentally I love that film.
@@ideaWorld403 So do I, though the book is better.
Yes this is a good point regarding context. It's much more appropriate to dress sexily in a club (though that depends on the club) and ultimately where is the no threat to other women to dress sexily in private for her man.
I’m so glad I don’t have to work with women. It’s really one of the greatest blessings in my life. I just want to earn a living in the most peaceful manner possible.
Perhaps people - particularly ordinary working people - accept Trump because the alternative party has abandoned them, preferring identity politics instead?
@@CM-qw5jp She's Canadian. She thinks Trudeau is the most heckin' free guy in the world.
[On a completely separate topic] I remember I mentioned an idea several months ago on this channel, basically that epochs of history, could be considered to have sort of, different archetypal characteristics. So today's Jung and Nietzsche episode on the EssentialSalts channel, (around 25 min,) has been added to my spring syllabus.
That repair process sounds ill-suited to a mass social media context, since you wouldn't have enough information about some celeb influencer's life to find something where she doesn't excel after finding something impressive in her curated feed. People in general share their strengths much more than their weaknesses. Wonder if that's part of the huge drop in teen girls' mental heatlh.
Good episode, all hail science.
❓️ Remember the Phoebe Prince tragedy?
That poor girl killed herself after she was terrorized by the other girls at her new school because she was so pretty and attracted male attention that they themselves coveted.
📕 Also, in the popular young adult novel, 'Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret' by Judy Blume, a young teenager becomes the victim of awful gossip and bullying simply because she was developing maturely before the other girls.
I now wonder if Louise was ever bullied by other women for being so beautiful.
That would be a shame, she's such a nice and beautiful lady.
That's out of line sir. You're right but out of line.
@@-tom-8720 No, he isn't out of line. Everybody sees beauty, let's not pretend we don't.
Such a cringe comment bro
I thought that comment was cute
I think in neurotypical girls these behaviors depend on individual temperament and interests as well as development and environment and even birth order. Some kids are naturally socially “online” really early, like by age 4; while others may not become very socially attuned until puberty or later, which makes them “annoying” to the kids who have developed that skill earlier. Kids who are socially attuned very early and who have high conscientiousness are easy to spot in classrooms and social groups, because they tend to be the “popular” kids. There is also an inordinate amount of parental competition that gets enacted vicariously through kids, especially kids who play sports. I am personally not very competitive at all, and have been a consistently “high achiever” throughout my life when I’ve ignored social games and “followed the beat of my own drummer.” My sisters are both totally different from me and one another - one of them fits the description in this video and the other one is more socially motivated than me but not very competitive. My two daughters have extremely different temperaments from one another: one is more of a free spirit like me and the other has been socially attuned and competitive from day 1. My point is that this conversation is interesting and may be helpful for managing group dynamics but for parenting or working with individuals we should pay more attention to the specific kid in front of us than the statistical norm.
The guys nickname thing is so true. A guy nicknamed Tiny is always a huge guy.
Weird anecdote: when I was in elementary school during recess-- we played kick ball with those chain fence basketball courts. For whatever reason the kids decided to do “boys vs girls”
Well obviously the boys were winning and I thought it was…. Un invigorating. I wasn’t trying to be a white knight, but I felt it was unfair and stupid. So I switched teams.
Reaction? The girls avoided me and acted embarrassed. The boys just laughed and kept enjoying their ‘game’.
I wanted a challenge. I wasn’t trying to please anyone. I saw a vacuum of power and I filled it. I invited difficulty. I never forgot how everyone reacted to that.
I say now, coming from 40 years, they will tear you down if you try to stand up. But no price is too great for the privilege of being who you are.
I was a very strange kid. 🧘
In this episode with Chris Williamson, Tania Reynolds, an Assistant Professor in Psychology at the University of New Mexico, dives deep into the tall poppy syndrome and why women tend to undermine the reputation of the same sex in a covert way and how women with Dark Triad Personality (albeit she doesn't refer to them as such) use indirect aggression to tear other women down.
czcams.com/video/m5w0sALvppU/video.htmlfeature=shared
Envy of good lookers
I found her claim that women shouldn't care what other women wear to be pretty ludicrous. When a woman dresses to look as sexy as possible, it is clearly an act of provocation and other women rightly perceive it as such.
Provocation?
Get real!
A woman's self-esteem issues is not a beautiful woman's problem.
Vanity is one of the human capital sins. But we are not talking about why it is so.....
Feminism is the control of other women's marital opinions.
I wonder what the guest knows about autism and bullying. As an autistic person (male) I have experienced a lot of bullying. I think female bullying is much worse. Males are more physical and far less cruel, in my experience. You can earn respect from males. Males tend to all submit to objective reality, so there is an apeal to that justice available. Females are more enclosed in a social construct so there is no limit
so fetch
Gretchen, stop trying to make "fetch" happen, it's not going to happen.
Female psychology is terrifying. Men do not think about pecking order to the same level. We more so want to contribute and feel glad to have someone better tham us on our team. I suppose evolutionarily, if my friend is even better in battle or a better hunter than me, great. That is keeping me alive. Perhaps women would have been in more of a zero sum competition with other women?
So productive vs distributive thinking. Males would provide and women fight over what is provided. I wonder how this relates to government and voting ...
LP happens to be the most skillful hunter in my characteristically masculine, cyber pseudo-intellectual, hunting tribe. She carefully stalks the prey, which in this case involves seeking out good guests, fires arrows with best aim, which means constructively directed questions, and shares the spoils to strengthen group solidarity for greater cohesion and adaptive cooperation in future hunting parties, which involves disseminating useful content to the entire online kingdom of Trollistan. Why would I chop down this tall poppy, rather than hold her up? This way we all get more tasty meats, plus girls, cars & money ~the Dalai Lama
Was really enjoying the discussion and about to share it on Facebook until the Ms Vaillancourt made a totally gratuitous and lazy comment about Trump that it seems we are all to agree with considering the chuckles that followed. Unfortunate. I thought the conversation was about not making unwarranted disparaging comments about people. She didn’t give one example where Trump was autocratic. Like I said lazy as well as unprofessional. May as well be a newsreader who is handed a list of talking points to spout that day.
It's projection. Trudeau is far more autocratic than Trump ever was. Canadians have an undue sense of superiority.
@@RCCarDude They do. They wake up and say thank God I'm not American. Trump isn't autocratic in the least. Any issue he had went through the courts and the abortion issue, he gave it to the states which is closer to the people.
So she said one thing you didn't like and that made you not like it overall?
But this won't be called "Toxic Femininity." Interesting.
I think the shame / judgement towards women dressing like hoz is justified - it's a cheap way of getting attention that diverts the social norms (family oriented) that is the most healthy for children, society, and the future.
“We dress for ourselves, not for men”
When a woman dresses sexy, women will not like her. Is this because other women will find her sexy and that affects how women compete with each other over women?
Make it make sense…
💋💋🌹🌹🌹💋💋
Again,.logic fail, "why can't we just do feminism and not be competitive toward imodest women" how about human nature. Thats the point of your own work. Why is the takeaway not just understanding the reason for traditional modesty. Feminism is transhuman to its core
You both sounded pretty ignorant when commenting on Trump.
Sounds perverted to me. Looks like misplaced priorities.
CZcams - 48 min - Real Stories
Boys Alone (Social Experiment Documentary) | Real Stories
CZcams - 49 min - Real Stories
Girls Just Wanna Have Fun! Five Days Without Parents | Girls Alone I Real Stories
34:00 Fosho, the brain is a fabrication machine, this seems to reduce anxiety.
*Human subject is prompted subconsciously with fast-frame images, many are red. Then asked to rndmly pick a color, picks red. Asked why, instantly makes up story, abt often liking red, red is the color of my aura, etc.*
Your world is not real, Neo. It's a graphic rendering of the year 1999.
A good supplement for this comment is a short vid on The Well channel from several months ago with Michael Levin, called "the science of the self".
Comparing sport to war is weak. And female hunters did exist. Hunting is also less productive and effective than gathering, so try to keep the sports coach on topic and stop using every single guest as a tool of patriarchy.😉
I think the point was that in war you want hierarchy based upon merit, rather than egalitarian ideals
There are still a few hunter gatherer tribes in existence out there and they disprove both of your hilarious claims.
If u really wanna blow your minds about men, look into skateboarding, the history or stories in professional skateboarding. Jordan Peterson recognized this and even wrote a chapter in his book about it but only was able to scratch the surface. 1 ex. The Love Park story in philli.
true Peter Pans, lost boys, seem to be able to create their own cultures just fine without needing to be supervised.