FIRST RIDE EBMX X-9000 CONTROLLER ON SURRON 72v
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- čas přidán 16. 01. 2023
- As the EBMX X-9000 approaches it's release there is a lot of hype and anticipation about this controller. EBMX sent us a pre-production unit with a base 72v 15kw tune to compare against the long time power champ, the BAC8000. We were blown away by its capability and smooth power delivery, especially considering that this is not yet a production unit.
This is our first of many videos on the X-9000, and it's clear already that we need a KO Motor to unlock its full potential and explore its capabilities.
Let us know what you think and what videos you would like to see in the future!
Features:
- Purpose Built for Dirt Bikes!
- 4 Programmable 12v outputs for headlights, water cooling, etc
- Water Cooling optional
- Fully sealed IP67 rating
- Direct bolt on for Surron Light Bee and Talaria Sting
- Compatible with most electric motors on the market (KO, QS, Etc)
- EggRide display included with 6 power modes
- Thumb throttle for ReGen
Specs:
- Input Voltage 40-100v
- Phase Current 900A
- Battery Current 500A
- Peak Output 35kW
- Continuous Output: 20kW (water cooled) 15kW (air cooled) - Sport
Testing the X9000 with the KO RS right now. Totally agree on throttle feel, the most responsive throttle reaction I've ever had. Wheel stand guys would love this controller! Awesome bike love it!
Omg the answer we all wanted ❤️
Still kinda new but I’ve seen so tons of videos and reviews on the X9000. I have a 2023 surron light bee and would love to upgrade to some top mods. What else would I need to maintain after ordering this X9000?
@@philipaurea1869 Battery 72V, motor down the track. Check out Progressive E we have a tonne of reviews on different mods
Great review! I appreciate the observation of keeping the bike true to what it was originally intended to do, light and playful. That said the added punch is nice too. Just got my X-9000 and couple it with a 72V battery. Marrying that combo with a 16/19 wheel set with 58T sprocket...woot woot. Can't wait!!
Absolutely agree about keeping the SurRon light and fun! Great vid......Keep up the great work!
Jeez, that was FAST! Still building mine (FOX40, Nucular 24F, Aarma EXT, WARP 9 rear 16" wheel, HOPE Tech 4 V4 brakes, Renthal bars etc.). We have tight forested singletrack where I live so the build is a bit different . Cheers from Toronto. Oh BTW, which 72v battery should I be buying? Leaning on the Chi over the EMBX.
Awesome guys! sick bike build and love the feedback :)
Love the colors
The feeling how the throttle responds and how the power is delivered has mostly to do with the software/firmware used. It is VESC-derived firmware and you can feel all the hard work Benjamin Vedder has put into the development of the VESC code base over the last several years. You can find tons of values to fine-tune the exact throttle response if needed. However, the smoothness and super predictable power delivery come from the advanced current control mode FOC algorithm Vedder coded, which is probably the most advanced control loop on the planet. More phase amps on Surron/Talaria sized motors mostly goes into inefficiency, since the stator will saturate at a certain point and more amps will not create an awful amount more torque but rather an awful amount of heat. You basically pump more amps into a fully magnetized stator, which is not a wise thing to do. At that point the original detection parameters also don't work so well anymore, which creates other issues for proper FOC commutation and rotor tracking. For a very linear and predictable throttle response, batt amps and phase amps should be close together anyway. Otherwise, you get a negative turbo lag like feeling where the phase amps drop at a certain speed until they are reduced to battery amps at full speed. Even with the biggest motor that you can squeeze into that frame plus added water-cooling, the bottleneck will always be the battery and the motor. 10-12KW continuous power rated motors in that form factor are not easy to design. A 500A controller can easily deliver 3-4 times the power and will therefore heat up the motor sooner than later. And even if you would manage to solve the motor issue, the other bottleneck (Battery) will also set some limitations. I think you made a good choice to stay realistic about the power output and a motor swap will probably solve your overheating issues a bit if you don't make the mistake to crank up the amps. The main reason to choose a bigger motor is less heat at the same power level/torque output. Balancing everything around a sweet spot between power and heat is what you want to do.
Awesome insight! Thank you!
My god that bike looks great
just ordered this for my talaria sting r which im currently waiting on. Will keep stock battery until i save up for a good 7i2v battery.
full power with ko motor for the next time !!
:))
Obviously a better battery with the KO motor
I can’t trucking wait to get one 🔥god dam money, why don’t you grow on tree’s 😂
Nice review
Well I have been running the EBMX X9000 /EBMX 72v 42ah for about 600 miles so far on a stock motor 225a/600pa stock throttle and its a little motorcycle is super fast super smooth crack the throttle at 30 pulls the wheel right off the ground like a 250 There is no other controller that can even come close to this. IMO
Love the video, cant wait to see the k.o. motor on that sick bike. Im confused tho, he said he was running 15kw on the bike, but it is a stock battery, probably bypassed, I only run my stock bypassed battery at 7.5kw isn't that the max? Or is it a 72v in a stock case?
Pretty sure he said 72v battery
Hah! you're BOTH correct, the battery in the beauty shots was an OEM battery with a sticker on it...we never rode the bike with that battery it was only for photos. All the riding was with a Chi 72v battery.
Oh ok thank you
Another way to keep your motor cooler is by adding more gearing and compensating the missing top speed with field weakening. Typically top speed is not used so much in the dirt and it is better to accept inefficiency at speed and be more efficient at slower speeds. This is a good method for racing on tight tracks, where top speed is only used for a short period and the field weakening isn't used for a long period of time.
Great point! We all gear our bikes down typically 54t on the 16/19 and 60t on 18/21 and it definitely helps reduce the load on the motor and improve track acceleration and hill climbing and like you said can also reduce motor temps. Thanks for pointing this out!
@@ChargedCycleWorks We did that trick with our Kart (2x VESC 75/300 at 800A batt/phase total output). Geared it down to 100 km/h and added 25 km/h with the field weakening. The top speed will only be used for 2 seconds at the end of the longest straight and the additional amps used for field weakening are only adding heat for those 2 seconds. In return, we use fewer amps on the other parts of the track and the system runs cooler. We have done a lot of work on balancing systems correctly and finding the optimal balance and settings is much more important than shooting more and more power into a system of a certain size and wrong gearing. Heat can come from two sources, RPM and Amps. Just running your motor at 10A but at full RPM will overheat it after a while due to switching losses and eddy currents (core losses). The trick is to find the sweet spot between average RPM and average current. So if you gear down too much you can also run into issues if you ride fast for a long time. Finding the sweet spot between core losses (RPM) and copper losses (Amps) is the task. I guess a bigger motor and better gearing+ field weakening + the same amp settings you used already will probably solve the overheating issue.
From the description of what you want, sounds like you need a KTM XC300!!
We do have and ride KTM300's we love them! The Surron is a very different bike and so much fun in tight singletrack trails, they are actually more fun than a gas bike in the right conditions due to their size and weight.
@@ChargedCycleWorks I could see that on mountain bike style trails. When I get on the Surrons, even with the risers and everythig, the geo just feels weird. I ride enduro mountain bikes, 300 2 strokes and trials moto's and all of those feel spot on for the job (arguably, the mountian bikes have the best geo feel, especially on the downhills). The main thing is, for the money it takes to ge a Surron to this level, I think there are better options that give you a lot more versatility. But if you can afford to have a quiver, hell yeah, the more bikes the better! I'm only semi ashamed to admit I have 4 bikes right now, a super moto, 2 300 2-trokes (Beta and Sherco) and a Gasgas trials. One has to go!!
Great video! One thing I would like to add however is when you said the bac 8000 is twitchier, it totally depends on the tune and the ebmx tune is know to be aggressive. That couldn’t be why
Great point! We actually have a BAC8000 with KO Motor review coming up soon where we want to explore the "twitchy" feeling more on a much better motor as our theory is that the Surron motor isn't capable of handling 15kw with smooth controllable power....essentially it doesn't have enough mass inside of it for that amount of power and that's why it feels twitchy. We could be wrong, but that's been our theory all year and we want to dig deeper into that rabbit hole. Thanks for pointing this out!
This is such an easy thing to change with any GLE BAC 4000/8000 controller
- You go into the GLE app
- click on the car icon at the top right
- literally the first setting “positive motoring torque ramp”
- change it from 50 to 75 or, 100, 125 etc… depending on your tune whether it’s 12kw or 15kw you’ll want to raise it to your liking which only takes a minute and then you’ll see that I was 100% right. This probably also means that the GLE app is better than the EBMX app for the BAC4000/8000 controllers
@@ChargedCycleWorks Wrong information sir
Read my comment and see how easy it is to fix 😂
@@ChargedCycleWorks It took you a year to still not figure out something that could easily be avoided by changing 1 small setting. I learned this by watching the GLE app instruction video
@@joem8601 Why do you keep posting the same comment over and over again? Do you work for GLE and trying to advertise for them?
What's the speed difference with a new controller, I just got a brand new sting and I cut the wire already and maxed out 50mph, will I go faster If I buy a new custom controller ?
The OEM controllers are speed limited on all bikes. You will have a faster top speed (and acceleration) on an aftermarket controller. We just posted the new Sting R video today, coming up soon is an MX3 with a Nano and we'll show top speed on that one as well as acceleration difference.
Water cooling for controller and motor ... consistent power
This is coming, takes time to R&D
I've invented a new drinking game:
Watch all CCW videos -
Take a shot every time Nate says "capable"
Hahaha good luck!
Bac8000 has a whopping 900 phase amps and buttery smooth. New firmware goes to 1200 phase amps. The positive motoring torque is the adjustment you use to make the tune even more buttery.
I am a little confused on your feed back on the x9000. I have 3 on pre order for my stock bike and my riding buddies. Just making sure it is the way to go and is the KO motor a must with this set up? You seemed to be on the fence with it being positive. lmk
In extreme conditions like full throttle racing and sand dunes where you are wide open almost all of the time, you will overheat the stock surron motor. Very few people ride a Surron in these conditions. However you have to push a lot of power for a long period to do this....it's pretty resilient considering 3x the power. Most people only encounter the overheating on long hill climbs. Out of our vast number of customers it's a very small percentage that are affected by overheating enough to choose a motor upgrade, it's usually street riders riding high speeds and people wanting to race who choose the motor upgrades. This is 100% a motor limitation and you'll have this limitation on all controllers when you crank up the power it has nothing to do with the X-9000.
@@flexgggjl1309 I'm sure Jim has a mind of his own and can make his own decisions without being called names, thank you for a completely irrelevant and useless comment.
@@flexgggjl1309 Says the little boy that post games...LMAO Mind your business before I get your mom to smack you.
@@ChargedCycleWorks Thank you. Excited to get it.
@@ChargedCycleWorkswhat’s irrelevant is your Cock Cycle works silly videos where they done even know da gear they sell. Lame AF
I think a KO nano/stock motor with a 72V battery is way enough for like 90% of folks...keep it light AND affortable.
Absolutely!
I'm building a copy of, I mean a bike inspired by, this one!
Absolutely love this build. Gonna be 80v 270A pack, with KO RS motor. Will be my first Sur-Ron. Never even rode one with the stock motor. Might as well start at the deep end, huh?!?
can it be used on a stock battery? and if so will it drain it faster?
The more power you use the faster the battery drains. The X9000 is extreme overkill for a stock battery, you really need an aftermarket battery to benefit from this controller. We just put our 72v batteries on a huge sale! chargedcycleworks.com/products/ebmx-72v-42ah-battery-upgrade
Does anyone know What state is this in it’s beautiful
Utah
what tires do you have on front and rear?
One of our most popular combos: 70/100-19 Dunlop MX33 up front and Bridgestone X30 Rear 90/100-16. If you've never seen our tire weight chart database you can find it here: chargedcycleworks.com/pages/sur-ron-tire-upgrade-specs-and-weights
Do you have belt drive or chain
We like belt on bikes that are not crazy modified perhaps up to 8-9kw. But once you push big power and especially if you plan on racing, you really need a chain drive to be reliable. The new Warp9 kit is significantly quieter than the others and our favorite: chargedcycleworks.com/products/warp-drive-chain-drive-for-surron-lbx?_pos=1&_psq=warp9+chain&_ss=e&_v=1.0
What is the weight of the beast?
We have not put it on a scale, but the wheels and tires are only a few pounds more, the fork is lighter so that almost zeros out the wheel weight gain. The only real weight gain on this bike is the battery which probably added about 10lbs. When you ride it you cannot feel any weight difference, in fact the massive power makes it feel lighter and more flickable but with massive handling and traction benefits.
1.Gasoline costs more in terms of transporting and loading.
2. Electric cost more to build, to have range, and slow recharge.
Two batteries are 2x2 = 4000.00 for batteries. E-dirt bikes are best for the city or the MX track.
You're trying to use math in an emotional problem. Lots of ways to argue both sides of the story in math and making the numbers say what you want them to support your argument. HOWEVER, 5 minutes on a Surron and a great trail and you are grinning ear to ear and never want the ride to end. They are incredible due to their ultra light weight and nimble and fun riding characteristics. There are many single track trails that we will never ride again on our gas bikes because the Surron is much more fun and enjoyable on them. Gotta try one for yourself when you get the chance.
@@shockadellick ...."It's not a wise investment to dump hard earned cash on..." That is probably the biggest "problem" with motorsports 😁 there is no way to excuse that kind of cash dumping into it anyhow...but what about the fun ?
@@shockadellick i have 10k in mine and its worth it, fast and can ride anywhere anytime
Just get the ko controller if you are gonna need the motor. Seems like a no-brainer.
We have a full KO motor/controller in our stable on the Gold Member monster build and it's AWESOME, we need to mix it up and ride all of the options out there. It's amazing that we now have choices! To be fair, at the moment KO is only for power users, it's a complicated system with a steep learning curve and that is not for everyone. Many riders out there want plug-n-play solutions. I'm sure KO will make theirs more user friendly in the future, but at the moment it's worth cautioning people what they are getting into with KO.
@Charged Cycle Works I have the pro on Talaria and found it very easy to program and amazing to have the options when out on varying terrain. I definitely get some people will like or require the plug n play simplicity. Friendly competition is an awesome thing for all. Cheers
@@EmotoOregon We have both X9000 and KO controllers. I'd agree the setup on KO isn't hard especially with the app but honestly it's worth trying the X9000 as well if you find a bike with one on it👍 just so you can feel this throttle on a wheel stand. The response is like nothing I've tried before on a KO RS motor.
I'm just pumped we have so many great options for these bikes now end of the day.
@@ChargedCycleWorksyou guys are so far behind the curve ! kO just dropped their IOS app ! Best and most easy set up and tune I ever soon bar none !
@@progressive_eexpect you to say that swing you work for EBMX .
thats basically like a kx100 but electric
Exactly! But with a superior power delivery. The KX100 has very little bottom end torque and is difficult to trail ride with. A modded surron has massive torque and is a trail beast!
Tt
NO No No Big Bike build all the way
This Bike ended up huge!! Haha
@@ChargedCycleWorks ya i love it !! i can relate I'm 6' 250lb seems like a perfect fit for me
@@ChargedCycleWorks i think the only thing i would do different is use the ferro forks on the big build just to lighten up the front a bit ?
Please answer your emails
support@chargedcycleworks.com we answer them every day. The fastest way to get ahold of us is on our website chat. M-F 10-6 is our normal hours.
@@ChargedCycleWorks I sent an email on Feb 3 on Surron Fork Tune. No response
Ko motors are massively overpriced rubbish. Not much copper, damaged laminates, loose windings, cracked magnets. Massive rip off. Looks good externally, but hugely disappointing when it comes to what really matters. They top out at 20kw absolute max and if kept there longer than a minute, its permanently damaged. You're better off with a qs165v2 or ebmx motor.
We've put a lot of race hours on our KO Motors, have yet for one to fail on us. Brett runs his at 20kw with an X-9000 while racing. The rest of us are happier around 13-17kw.
I'm the 1st person in Australia to have a x9000