What happens when a Pro FPS player plays their first Fighting Game?
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- čas přidán 16. 04. 2022
- So one of the events of the AT&T annihilator cup happened, and that event was Street Fighter V. Many pro players/streamers from various backgrounds were in this tournament, and the majority of them feared and stressed about Street Fighter above all other events, because its a fighting game. So while looking at this, why exactly are fighting game so scary, and can it be alleviated?
If you want to see the matches at the Annihilator Cup you can see the VOD's on the twitch here: / att
If you want to see Noko's statements on fighters check out his twitter here: / nokokopuffs
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#esports #fgc #gaming - Hry
So if you are rushing to the comments before watching all the video, the various rage and salt from the event can be funny yes, but the purpose of this video is not to make fun, but rather to say that I totally and completely understand where they are coming from. Fighting games are hard and scary, and it gets way harder and scarier when you don't know what you are doing and there's money on the line. So in looking at this AT&T event, basically makes me think why are fighting games considered so hard from an outsiders perspective anyways?
I say this a lot, but the game that got me to take fighting games seriously was actually KI. The tutorials were intuitive, the combo structure was explained, the frame data was there, AND the move properties were listed. I am not a frame data Nazi, and don’t think it’s 100% necessary to find frame traps per se, BUT it is what helped me understand the concept of what I could and couldn’t do without getting punished, and I think that’s important.
Cammy can go through fireballs with EX spiral arrow. We all know that, but is that so hard to include in the move list? I have seen games do this right, but even for SFV I felt like there was no excuse not to have it for people to reference in training mode.
Besides your basic movement tutorials and such, here are some necessities I think should be included:
-Theory of frame data
-Cancel windows for different strength normals
-Frame traps/reversals
-Cross ups
-Okizeme(hard knockdown vs soft)
-Safe jumps/Meaties
-Difference between a chain, a link, and a target combo (trial for each)
-Hitstun/blockstun
-Move properties/descriptions
-A training mode tutorial
-An explanation of the combo structure
-Trials shouldn’t just assume that you know that the combo only works on crouching or counter hit. Provide a description that explains it for newcomers.
I am missing some of the things that are included in every game. Those obviously stay in. Lol
@@AresGod0fWar Now that I think about it, all that extra content should be included as DLCs, free or paid, so many new players don't need to pay too much for stuff they don't want until they're convinced to keep playing the game. You know, most new players don't like spending 60 bucks on a FG to drop it a month later.
This is the reason why the "FGs becoming F2P" is a trend now: Make it easy for people to try the game, and then they can put money into it when they really wanna play it.
Off course, there's negative stuff to that business model.
@@AresGod0fWar This was similar to my experience with VF4 Evo on PS2. It didn't just teach VF; it taught players how to play FGs in general. I think there were over 100+ pass/fail tutorials with input display and frame data!
And it wasn't just some low-effort, spoon fed combos but common, offensive/defensive situations like when to throw and when to break them, how to handle turn priorities, meaties in okizeme, spotting CH and reacting properly, reading frames in advantage and disadvantage, etc.. It was like an interactive strategy guide and it was crazy good. As a byproduct of being comprehensive, it also demonstrated (in very manageable bites) that FGs were both difficult and rewarding to play.
The point is that new FGs should focus on better tutorials. It doesn't matter if fireballs are a single button press to execute if the player doesn't know when to use it. Although execution barriers are real, the largest barrier is learning how to play the game. Unlike other genres where strategy and execution are observable to spectators, FGs have layers of understanding beyond what's happening on the screen. Developers should take on the onus of demystifying that for newer players. Even beginner chess sets come with manuals beyond the rules and movement restrictions.
Its so hard from outside perspective (and to be fair, i still think its hard after playing seriously for several months now), because it's not intuitive. FPS is very intuitive. We've seen war and action movies, we know what we're supposed to do and moving our character doesn't require anything but a direction and maybe a run/jump button and a shoot button and others. Just one button for one action.
Meanwhile, in fighting games you gotta not only learn how to do specials ( which for most you learn from a command list not in the game itself), you also gotta learn about timing these moves into combos and then also recovery/startup frames and all sorts of things that just are never explained and aren't easy to outright figure out without a video guide. Theres a reason there's a glossary and wikis like dustloop that players refer to constantly. I'd like to see an FPS game that have the players go into a wiki on the side while practicing to learn "frame data" and mus. Its just a very specific fighting game thing.
Also probably my friend who plays games but not fighting games says it best, "I play games to relax, not get frustrated and stressed."
Hey roofle it's kinda unrelated but I wondered if you were gunna make a video covering the dnf leaks that happened on the playstation app on phones.
The E honda pick literally being caused by Brian F tweeting " to anyone competing in that tournament, pick Ehonda and mash Light Punch to win, thank me later" is super funny.
@@rzzz5946 she actually did, which makes it even better
@@rzzz5946 Yeah she really said, "The Twitter guy was right!"
I'd be impressed if any of these people ever heard of Brian F
Some things are timeless.
Honda slaps dominating the rookie table is one such concept.
@@geist-2111 believe it or not, streamers know of other streamers.
Gotta respect that even when he's salty he's admitting it's about skill and not bad balance. Genuinely admire that he doesn't blame the game for sucking but himself for not being skilled enough
He says FG players are superior but we complain soo much.
True it's definitely good for him to do like that but I feel like he's wrong for comparing FPS' to fighting games but I guess he didn't realize how different they are at first.
@@leifster7762 Nothing exists in a vacuum, regardless of how the FGC likes to treat the Fighting Game genre as if it does. Anyone who plays other game genres first WILL likely compare the difficulty and lack of intuitive learning to what they've experienced before, if just subconsciously.
@@RiahGreen lol this is a fact about us tho 🤣🤣
In his defense, a good fgc player takes a special kind of patience
I would imagine part of what made him so frustrated is that being a pro FPS player, he's used to being one of the best - somewhere near the top of the pack. But almost none of the skills he's spent his time learning to be an FPS pro transfers to fighting games. It's like taking a top level Olympic runner and having him participate in NASCAR or try to take up boxing.
I also think alot of his frustration is pretty fair or comes from lack of knowledge. Probably having a good acknowledgement of the burden of loss being on his actions made it more frustrating for him.
imagine if they made a shooter game combined with fighting game mechanics, basically metal gear combat cqc
@@jmgonzales7701an FPS game with a fighting game format are called Arena shooters like Quake, too bad they're not as popular as they used to be
@@jj4cx423 that's true, these pro FPS players probably wont get one frag against old Fatal1ty in Quake Live!
"Anybody that plays fighting games, they are greatest gamers in all of existence."
Cheers to that bro! 🥂
Honestly, this whole clip for me feels very nostalgic & in many ways wholsome for me. More Power to Noko for just giving a fighting game a shot. Everyone has been here at some point, and it really just shows how hard Fighting games truly are. The fighting game genre is not for everyone.
It's funny how this man, Noko, thinks that Fighting Games back in 1999 are easier, but the "REAL" reality is that those older fighting games are WAAAY harder. For instance, back in 1999, that was a year for "Street Fighter 3rd Strike," May 12 1999, and it's one of the hardest Street Figther games to play.
Fighting games are for everyone is the thing though. 91-94 they ruled the world. We need to find a way to get that mass appeal back
@@rooflemonger Okay maybe i should of said, "Not everyone is going to like FIghting Games" instead. But yeah, i toatally do agree that everyone can get into fighting games. hahahaha
@nurselee This attitude is fine if fighting games are popular but it's not. There's a real danger that fighting games will go down in popularity. It wasn't so long ago that the Tekken franchise nearly died out. Even SF isn't worth it for Capcom from a business perspective. They can make more from Monster Hunter and Resident Evil and I bet those games don't need a constant dev team working on updates. If SF wasn't such a big part of the Capcom identity then we might not even have SF5
Theme of 3rd strike lyrics : "This game is twice as hard,you see it with your own eyes 👀 " 🤣
@@rooflemonger different era of gaming and gamers. I think fighting games shot itself in the foot with trying to chase the "accessibility" trend set by gaming journos. Now when casuals lose they Blame the game for being too hard instead of wanting to invest more time into it. We just don't really have gamers with a competitive spirit it seems in this day and age
"I loved it but hated it" is probably the best way to describe fighting games for me 😂
My number one frustration is definitely getting hit, and not understanding how/why.
Games don't explain "chicken frames" or "landing recovery". It outright enrages me, but I'm always mad at myself for not understanding. Understanding is key to improvement.
and they don't show you the hit boxes or hurt boxes which sometimes don't work anything like what they look like on the screen
@@trevorjames123 some games do now. Skullgirls is good for that one. Of course that's only in training mode.
It's a very fine line for developers to walk; there's this perception that's common in the industry that the more "Data-heavy" devs make the presentation of their game, the more it will put off new players/first-time buyers of the game.
Sometimes, they want to include it, but aren't allowed by the management or by the group in charge of UI; it can get very messy, who ends up determining these things. Like another poster mentioned, Skullgirls is one of the few that gives that info to the player right out of the box in training mode.
block, block, block....until they are pushed out of range.
@@trevorjames123 -laughs in ramlethal-
I think that one of the most interesting takes on Single player in a fighting game I've seen recently is Them's Fightin Herds. Turning it into a kind of beatemup style situation where you're going through and encountering different, simplified enemies. Like, this wolf jumps at you and in order to beat him you've gotta learn how to antiair. This snake is gonna sweep low, jump in on him. And then combining that with movement sections where you have to like, dodge back and forth around the stage to avoid big area attacks.
It's not gonna teach you matchups or really even how to combo or anything, but it's going to get you familiar at least with your characters normals, teach you how to move, and generally how to read the screen space.
I remember Sajam was saying very good things about how it handled onboarding and checked it out myself, and it's even a step better than how GGXrd Rev handled its tutorials all due to the pacing of giving out information of base tech.
Ooo I like that a lot. A system like that, where you have to figure out for yourself how to beat certain types of moves in a low-pressure environment is great for ingraining that way of thinking into you (in general you retain information better if you have to figure it out yourself). Fighting games evolve so much over the course of their lifetime that fully tutorialising them is impossible, but teaching people not just how to beat jump ins, but how to LEARN to beat jump ins, gives them the tools to do the same thing when that happens to them in a match. (this would pair well with a +R style replay system, where you can take control of replays and practice in situations you've lost in before)
Honestly I think it's fine to leave things like combos and matchup knowledge to community content creators to figure out. If a player is at a point where they're recognising that their combos aren't good enough or recognising that they struggle with a specific character then they're invested enough to find youtube channels like this one. (this also has the benefit of getting them more engaged with the community side of the FGC).
I think fighting game tutorials should also encourage new players to try out the stuff they learn against real opponents as they go. Something like giving players who complete the DP tutorial a quest to land 10 counterhit DPs and punish 10 blocked DPs, which gets you a medal or something when you complete it. Then players are going to be hyper-aware of the specific situations DPs come up in, and pretty soon they're playing mind games with their opponent trying to bait a DP so they can punish their 10th one. Another benefit is that it gives new players accomplishments they can get without beating their opponent. Winning your first match in fighting games can take a while, especially if you start playing later into a game's lifespan, so you need some kind of reward they can strive for that doesn't require them to do everything well or get lucky, one that has trackable progress.
Tekken 3 had what you described and it was hella fun to play when I was a kid.
This is the way it should be. I'll have to check it out.
That game is made by full grown adults who unironically watch MY LITTLE F-ING PONY
I can definitely understand where Noko is coming from. I went into Strive having never played a fighting game before and it felt like I had to learn to play piano just to do basic combos.
One if the things I feel like is rarely discussed is the lack of public understanding about what low-skill gameplay actually looks / plays like. From the outside looking in, most of media coverage about fighting games is high-level tournaments with absolute killers. You see these dudes with flashy combos and incredible control of their character and go "I want to do that". Then you boot up the game and get memed on by a Potemkin running Garuda loops. I've become a big fan of the genre but man, it's a real kick in the teeth to accept that for awhile the peak of your ability will be basic gatlings and anti-airs. Especially when you're already used to being proficient in other genres.
well yes but this barrier is in every "nich" or specific gameplay title, like look for RTS, mobas, simracing, etc. there's a reason why they are nich in the first play, this are games that requires a floor of knowledge in order to be enjoyed and that floor is precisely the reason why are so engaging experiences
My brother in Christ, strive doesn't have gatlings. At least bbcf and xrd let you Gatling and have better AA. Strive and sfv are aggressively new player hostile.
I mean, I don't get why this wouldn't be a thing in other games. You wouldn't expect to be able to outshoot counterstrike pros, so why are people expecting to be day 1 daigos?
@@nickromano3087 Strive does have gatlings, they are just completely changed. You can prefer the old system, but there is a genuine accesibility reason why they were changed. I think in a dev blog they mentioned that they wanted new players to understand the purpose of each button, for example P is a fast, low commit poke that has little return, while S is your main combo starter. Plus it makes changing characters easier since everyone has the same gatlings.
I totally get this notion. I've never been good at doing combos in a lot of fighting games. Seeing high level combos and trying to do them is so hard and daunting. While its so much easier to slide, shoot, and melee in say Apex. You might not be as good as a pro but you can at least feel like you doing the same stuff.
I have been trying to teach a friend Skullgirls. He had tried fighting games before and given up on them, and when he heard me talking about them he reinstalled and tried the tutorials again. When I realized I started telling him about my experience starting out. Skullgirls was my first game as well so there is a lot of overlap between our experiences. When he said he couldn't do a quarter circle I told him that we all start there, focus on what you can do and to take things at your own pace. There are 18 other moves you can do with a single button press 6 standing, 6 crouching, and 6 jumping, so try to figure out what those do first. He is starting to figure out basic L>M>H combos with one of his characters and has cleared story mode on easy for the first time.
imagine playing skullgirls so you can watch a cutscene for every combo lmao
This event was so hilarious and enlightening to see.
Happy Easter Sunday to those who celebrate! Maybe you can spread the holiday cheer by leaving a like on the video? 🐰 Rugal big guide coming in a few days more than likely, after that who knows cause I don't lol.
Motion inputs can take a while to get used to sure, but in my eyes the real gate-keeper is not being able to consistently do one move into the next e.g. SFV links, KOF specials into specials, GGST microdash, etc. Having consistent buffer systems, hit-confirmable hitstun, and clear combo routes is the way to go. I personally enjoy finding combo routes in fighting games on my own, but having a proper buffer, a reasonable amount of hitstun, and clearer combo structure would just objectively be more fun and would allow more people to play without getting frustrated or scared off by the impossible "challenge".
Edit: Fighting games are hard and should/always will be difficult, but they shouldn't be difficult for reasons that amount to outdated industry standards or older FGC generations. It's much easier to teach a veteran player something new than to teach a new player veteran-level game-sense and technique.
this exactly, there are SO MANY things that can go wrong or work different than expected that while trying to learn what went wrong mid match your opponent has taken away 50 percent of your healthbar and the experience is over. Even worse if you were at an arcade like I was a couple years ago and some hotshot did the “put the quarter on the machine to play winner next” move and I only got to play two matches because he just kept winning and I never got another opportunity to figure anything out.
Killer Instinct 2013 actually got pretty close to what you described, they have moves categorized by combo starter, combo links, and combo enders etc. and they also color code them to make the text easier to break up and understand conceptually.
Killer Instinct also has a UI graphic that appears if you try to break someones combo with the wrong button, they’ll actually tell you what button you SHOULD have pressed, so that the next time you fight you have an opportunity to try again and use the correct button. being able to get feedback and learn from your mistakes mid match is SO incredibly helpful.
@@NickJGraves Totally agree. Had KI Gold on the N64 back in the day which I really enjoyed, as the combo system was very clearly explained - opener-double-linker-double-finisher. When I picked up the newer version recently, it was similar, satisfying and quite fair in terms of execution demands. On the other hand, hitting one frame links in SFIV and getting special/super cancels in KOF consistently has been much harder.
I think those things are just an issue of scaling content from beginner to religiously playing pro. Eventually there needs to be those gate-keepy high level things because they're supposed to be at the high level. Newcomers should be gently nudged in some way, like the KI user interface mentioned in the previous comments, to not look that direction yet and grab the basic stuff that still has a lot of meat to it. This is kind of a problem in any game that has content for *epic gamers*. Nothing is explained enough, and some things seemingly break their own rules because there is no decent explanation in-game even for those who understand all the mechanics. It just becomes a witch hunt outside of the game for some piece of info that solves the puzzle a high-level player is fiddling with. It's an issue of poor conveyance to the player. If a game has perfect conveyance to let someone figure something out completely in-game, and then they still can't do it... Welp, that's just the skill ceiling for them. Can't win at everything.
that's interesting because there was some backlash on sfv links being so easy compared to older games and I guess that is the perspective of pros and whoever is already familiar with fighting games to that level, but I could see the argument, I do like to lab my combos out and get the feel for them so that when I start consistently landing them in real matches it's a huge milestone tho
They should have played Tekken. Just hit buttons and things happen.
I will say this, as much as I love fighting games, they aren't for everyone
Thing is though, they absolutely used to be for everyone. I am old enough to remember when fighting games were 100% the most popular genre of game on the planet. from like 91-94, fighting games were unstoppable. A lot of that went away when arcades died, but it proves that FG's can absolutely hit critical mass, its just a matter of how do we make that happen again. Project L is probably gonna be the first signs of that.
@@rooflemonger exactly, all my uncles and my dad weren't your gamer type when they were young, but back in the day the street fighter and mortal kombat machines would be always occupied by them even though they weren't very good. I guess it was just the trend or something and it caught on.
@@rooflemonger more people played the older games because the mechanics were much simpler, even my mum used to play MK1 with me but fighters nowadays are way too complex and aren’t that trendy, even I a fighting game enjoyer just drops them every few weeks because it’s so much effort to play well and there’s many fun games like Spider-Man, god of war, Destiny etc to enjoy that don’t require hours upon hours of practice or homework to have lots of fun
Nope im the only one out of my friends that plays fighting game cause they dont want to sit and learn
@Gloryclover I like all games but you chose to highlight only destiny like a fool
Fighting game chads rise up 😎 including the bronze players we are skilled gamers
30 years of scrubbery ready for action, sir!
Me who can’t do online matches for Wi-Fi reasons:
I got washed quite a bit playing 3rd strike today and let me tell you, I feel like a god gamer anyways now
It's wild to think about but even making it to bronze puts you in like the top 5% or something.
What can i say, fighting game players are just build differently
They probably would have been better picking something like DBFZ with it's autocombos and beginner friendly stuff. Was fun watching some of the streams though.
sfv is the most esports of fighters though, and this is a super duper esports event
Strive, Tekken and, if you wanna count it, Smash, would've been better. But I kinda love seeing them struggle tbh
I think this was fine tbh. The biggest streamers I tuned into weren't going to learn the game no matter how simple it was. Most did not practice AT ALL before the tourney and I think that made things as fun as it could be for all of them since they sucked equally. As the tourney went on you could see some of them slowly problem solving and learning how to block and zone. 1 streamer even played sfv the next day for his entire stream so I'd say it was a success for the genre
@Alexandru Munteanu the tag and assist mechanics absolutely make dbfz tougher to jump into imo
@Alexandru Munteanu I'm going to go off of Newb friendly with how Newbs interpret what Newb Friendly is by what Noko was emphasising on, Easy Execution and Mashing Buttons for combos, and still look cool while doing it, exactly what DBfZ is. Meanwhile Strive they gutted the combo system, so you're not going to look cool and get anything off of mashing random buttons, you're going to just get a shit ton of COUNTER screens.
10:15 jakenbakelive is one of the better players of the annual annihlator cup, he also took part in the MK tournament last year. But the funniest part was when he challenged his girlfriend waterlynn to Tekken 7, he got beat for over an hour straight, he didn't know that she streams Tekken regularly lol
How do you not know what your partner plays? Seems like a weird relation
@@cloude8496 Nah he obviously knows she plays Tekken that's why he challenged her. What he doesn't know is that she's no casual, she actually streams ranked Tekken.
Also he spontaneously challenged her in a IRL stream at a bar, so there's also a live audience in the background watching him get beat lol
Dont believe everything..do u not understand that 99%of everything is set up beforehand.🤦🏻♂️
@@thecloak5203 It's absolutely ridiculous how much mental gymnastics sexists like you go through to downplay a woman.
"A woman is involved, I know nothing about her, therefore it must be fake"
"99% of everything is fake", dude, they were literally on traveling around on an IRL stream, walking down the street and found a bar to chill, saw that the bar has Tekken and decided to play.
You're telling me they faked going on a trip, faked going into a bar, faked finding Tekken and faked playing and faked losing for over an hour?
Are you also going to tell me that the Earth is flat and you're antivax?
As a fighting game player, I find RTS the hardest game to play. 1 million press per minute. What?!
I feel the same way. I got so much respect for RTS. I just can't wrap my pleb FG brain around it and get mopped lol
In other words, fighting games are the best allegory for life 😆.
- When learning a new skill, you'll suck at first. (Get over your ego)
- Find out what you need to improve by asking to ppl that are more experienced than you. (Always strive to improve)
- And remember that you're not invincible. At any time, a perfect stranger can whippe the floor with you. (Be humble)
Truth.
Amen!
that's why ryu keeps fighting...
And doing the same thing twice has no place in PvP
Man, it really is the outside point of view that fighting game players, no matter how "bad", are missing.
Like I'm not really that good, I have like what, 500 hours combined in xrd and strive? 100 hours in all the street fighters combined? I'm not toooooooooooooooo deep into fighting games.
But that's an infinite amount of experience I have other those that have never played a fighting game. I look at street fighter 5 and go "yeah, that's pretty basic pick up and play. Won't win but I can do stuff."
Meanwhile those people probably don't even know any inputs. And why would they, most fighting games are terrible at explaining things. And because of that, even something easy to pick up like street fighter has this aura of impenetrability.
And not gonna lie, I do feel kinda humbled to hear from a pro fps player, who I will never, EVER be able to defeat in a shooter, how hard fighting games are and how good I am for playing them.
Yeah, this video is super important. I think people even tangentially into the FGC forget what starting from scratch on this is like. I mean, I can't think of any other genre where a whole bunch of your attacks are just not mapped to the controller at all and instead require half a dozen buton presses in quick succession. That's why when people say that special move shrotcuts are dumb or too easy or not needed because newcomers will "get it" if the game looks cool enough... well, now I have something to show them, i suppose.
Yeah, it's kind of weird to think about. I've played fighting games since like 1992. I instinctively try 236, 214, 623, 412, 41236, 63214 before I look at command lists. That puts a gulf between me and my teenage kid who can only play Soul Calibur while ignoring 236 moves.
Noko's comment about fighting game players does make me feel better 😎 but jokes aside, I'm thinking about it from the opposite side as well...I mean, I don't play FPS games at all. & if I attempted to play any of them online, I'd probably be really sh*t!
So if anything, I'd never knock any of these pro FPS players and streamers for being bad at fighting games. They're doing things that I could never do too.
@@Sune not really bro an fps game is a lot simpler than a fighting game. If you just wanna be ok then all you really need is good aim and understanding the maps. So it doesn’t take nearly as long as learning a fighting game
@@SalamanderLights I once tried to teach a guy that was really in to DBZ and into videogames but not fighting games to play DBFZ. He said he was having trouble because he couldn't do specials, which in DBFZ are all simplified to quarter circles.
I couldn't believe it. I booted the game, told him what to do... and nothing. He just couldn't get them out. This guy was good at games, he played Mobas and shooters and stuff. Couldn't do a quarter circle button move to save his life. Even after he started getting them off it was inconsistent and he was getting frustrated, so we didn't even get to the part where I tried to explain any actual concepts about how to play fighting games.
People underestimate this stuff. A lot.
Most of us who started in the fgs did it when we were children, throwing all the mechanics in our faces and seeing how to learn. It's obviously not a good learning system, but the genre hasn't found much better than that.
What I strongly believe is that lowering the runlevel (as Project L, DNF, or possibly SF6 intends to do) is not the way to improve the genre. Better single player modes could be explored where mechanics are unlocked step by step (like a beat'em up RPG), so that new players assimilate them better.
In any case, the morbidity of having seen these pros (famous more than pros) scared for playing one of the easiest fgs in terms of execution today, has been a lot of fun.
I started age 22 after borrowing original blazblue. the tutorial was like brain surgery. I was just enough of an unemployed weirdo to sit through it.. it still took me months to put any of it into practice, months to do a double QCF super.. and I never managed to add rapid cancels to my game or even play online. Hell it took almost ten years to get me enjoying online play with +R rollback and finally Strive.
@@BlinJe exactly man that’s what most ppl don’t understand. Fighting games takes a lot of practice n there so many elements u need to practice that most ppl just aren’t gonna have time for that. You need to practice combos, neutral, matchups, inputs etc. being decent at all of that is gonna take some time and that’s why fighting games have always pushed casuals away meanwhile if u look at cod or somin all u really need is aim and knowing maps and playing around teammates
@@raekwonchambers2297 theres gotta be a way to break it down, like rooflmonger is saying. I think the fundamental way that strive is built is amazing for new players. i’ve felt like just a quick character guide on youtube and really basic combos was enough for me to actually *play*!! and enjoy fighting people online. it took me this long..
@@BlinJe yea strive is a pretty good example and you also have that one thing in strive where you can look up combos in the game made by other ppl and try them for beginners cuz not everyone will go to CZcams to watch a guide.
River City Girls is the best fighting game of 2019. It's literally a beat'em up RPG and it's progression is amazing so far, haven't beaten yet, playing with a friend. It will absolutely kick you in the teeth too.
If this doesn't say how identical the entire fps genre is, I don't know what will.
I love seeing new people try to get into the fgc, It is an undertaking that those of us that go to tournaments or have just been in the scene a long time forget. The feeling of being forcibly humbled by even the most basic of players is something that stays with you and will either thrust you forward or leave you where you are
As someone new to the FGC, I came from Apex same as Noko here. My reaction was the same as his. I ended up doing alot of research on fighting games (mostly from your channel) and it helped greatly in understanding how it works.
Because you've researched it, you've invested in it, you took your time. That's what we all did in the FGC.
I can watch, study and learn hours of Apex content, I'll never be able to consistently aim at that game. Why? Because I'm not an FPS player, and I've never invested in that genre.
I like motions. They feel very satisfying to get off
Things I believe a FG needs to succeed:
-Good Tutorials
-Good Netcode
-Large playerbase (so that you're able to hop and find people at your level)
-Straight forward mechanics from a beginner POV
-Familiar / Highly known characters to attract people from outside the FGC
The only games that had a good amount of this characteristics are Smash, Brawlhalla and Mortal kombat, that's why this are the most known FGs from a casual POV, and that's also why I think Project L might be the key to get a fighting game into the modern mainstream audience.
Some things just don't have mass appeal and never will and that's perfectly OK. I'm tired of fighting games being watered down for people who are gonna play for 2 weeks max. They should be focusing on retaining the userbase that they already have.
@@AdamSmasherRealthese casual FG always die thats the irony
“Frame perfect shit”
Dawg I got to super plat mashing my head on the stick lmao
I will admit hearing people complain that fighting games are unapproachable by these streamers is either disingenuous or they are out of touch with what happened to them at the beginning of their journeys in their respective genres. Watching someone pick up their first moba is a nightmare because the barrier to entry is so incredibly high given how many mechanics you have to learn, characters, items, etc. just to attempt learning. I believe it is much easier and faster to grasp the beginner concepts in fighting games than mobas
agreed, it was really disheartening how little effort the put in, probably so they could excuse themselves when they lost easier.
The thing with MOBAs is that they provide feedback and it takes way more mistakes for a match to snowball out of control. Plus, League of Legends doesn't even give you everything at hand when you start.
You start with a limited champion and summoners pool to not have decision paralysis and your first matches are with bots, then with other players against bots and finally against other players as you unlock more (and better) spells, rune pages, game features such as Hextech Crafting and champions. You don't touch ranked until 1 or 2 months at minimum.
Matches in a MOBA are more long-winded so there's more room to adapt and learn from your mistakes. If i fuck up in lane, there's a negative feedback in the form of me dying, getting info about how i died and going back to lane from respawn, which i can learn from and try, for instance, to play safe so that it doesn't happen again by some common sense logic. Plus, i only died once, it's not the end of the world with one mistake, regardless of what your team thinks. Heck, you can even get carried and win anyway.
Fighting games are all about punishing mistakes. If i try something new, i get exposed and i leave myself open for my opponent to punish me with little feedback other than "i did thing, i got hit". And there is little to no additional feedback because the game expects the player to analyze the situation with their fundamental knowledge of it. However, if they are unable to analyze it properly they get frustrated.
How many times have you said that you swore you teched that throw but the game apparently said otherwise and you took it? How many times you tried to punish something you thought that was unsafe but your punish didn't work because they were either too far or the move was safer than you thought?
Small stuff like the Punish letter in Strive that appears when you hit someone in the recovery frames (counter is on startup/active frames except for DPs) or the color coding of safe and unsafe moves in Fantasy Strike does a lot to make fighting games easier to watch and learn from. I think the focus should be on giving fighting games more visual feedback. Give players information about what's happening while giving leeway for them to actually learn.
@@monchete9934 Fighting games are just harder on your ego.
facts i think moba is the hardest genre
Wtf. Mobas are one of the easiest games. Clicking to move and pressing buttons for skills is not hard.
I'm all for fighting games becoming more accessible, but I hope it comes from in game tools to better teach the player, proper training modes and such. I truly hope simple inputs don't become the norm though. For various reasons and some bias, I think they'll hurt certain design decisions. only time can tell I suppose.
exactly this will only gut those who put in time to be better as they learn. Gutting the mechanics would only just ruin the effort put in to learn. Even then the gameplay would be boring imo since it would just be an easily solved system.
The QCF motion is so famous and such a staple of the game that I'm pretty sure they wouldn't dare remove it. The backlash would be ridiculous.
@@Tenebris8444 .... so you rather have lots of players be executiongated for the top one percent ... because they put in SOO MUCH EFFORT into learning the game ... and then people wonder why many games have low playercounts like that once the casuals had their fill of singleplayercontent ...
... meanwhile killer instinct with autocombos ... do you think being able to use autocombos suddenly puts me into Killerrank ? (equivalent to platinum in other systems)
both smash (the game many argue is NOTAAFIGHTINGGAME!!!111!!!) and iirc MvC2 use simple inputs ... simple inputs does make smash fuck all easy with other mechanics and rules in place .. MvC2 while i haven´t played for years but this goes towards any comboheavy/combo focused game .. even something as simple as crouching lightkick into crouching lightkick into special STILL requires timing ... and a casual like me still will drop even that combo every once in a while ..
... now do the 10 button+direction presses combos that aren´t included within a system Killer Instinct uses ...yea ...
... but hey enough of combos ... what was again the more important thing to know about fightinggames?
right, controlling neutral ... because being able to perform combos matters jack if you are crap at controlling neutral and footsie gameplay .. and that doesn´t require pretzelmotions ...
@@TuringMachine001 motion inputs don´t need to be removed ... just have simple inputs as an option .. it WON´T make casuals compete with a topplayer .. this is such a misconception ...
@@MrTBSC If easier inputs are an option then high level players will use them as well.
I think what doesn’t help is they were learning to be immediately thrown into a tournament (albeit a low skill level tournament) for a notable cash prize. I’ve taught my girlfriend basic chain combo structure in Guilty Gear and Blazblue and neutral/patience via SamSho. I don’t play to solely to beat her per say but rather work on some really specific thing with a character I don’t main and we both have fun. She even understood motion inputs pretty quickly on pad (although she found it easier on my hitbox) using Faust/May in Xrd and Strive (which means she got charge motions too), Hibiki in Blazblue, and Yashamaru Kurama in SamSho.She didn’t pick for meta, just designs or quirks she liked seeing move on screen. I thinks it has a lot to do with the expectations and learning environment. Anyone can learn, most people will never be a tournament champion, but everyone can have fun when you view it as a game first and an income source second or never. For reference the only games she plays other than fighting games to do something I enjoy together are the Ace Attorney games, Danganronpa visual novels, and like Kirby and Luigi’s Mansion so not exactly an aspiring pro-gamer.
Believe me these streamers don't care about the money, they're rich. Most didn't bother practicing and weren't going to no matter the prize. Only 2 put in at least a day's worth of effort into learning the game before the tourney and they got 2nd and 3rd.
@@mkay1837 if that's the case all that bitching this guy did was pointless. You didn't do the homework
@@mkay1837 True. For these streamers in particular it’s probably more about them going from looking masterful in their game of choice in front of their fans to looking completely lost and exposed in front of their fans. The damage to their pride/ego probably upsets them more so than anything about money. However for the general population of people who get butt hurt over learning fighting games and expect to take every set straight from day one, they need to calm down and learn how to learn the game and love the genre before they expect to crown themselves kings of the community in tournament pressure settings.
@@jonathanorozco3244 I tuned into most of these streamers during the event and most didn't care actually. They are entertainers and the tourney setting/prize pool really doesn't matter to them. For the most part they were messing around in voice call since they're all acquainted. If you've only seen the Noko clips you'd think that fighting games left a bad taste in everyone's mouth but they found a way to have fun with it with their limited knowledge. Noko is the exception in that he probably expected to pick the game up quickly but got frustrated cause he can't make sense of anything.
Why was SFV even at this tournament? Like Apex, Halo, Counterstrike, yeah makes sense. Dead by Daylight, ok that’s a little different but still relatively fits in with the rest of those, but then Street Fighter is an entirely different genre. Of course everyone there is gonna struggle. It’s like if I made a tournament of Basketball, Soccer, Football and then Bowling
The problem with a lot of discussion on this topic is most people forget what it’s like to learn fighting games. I only started with DBFZ, I got hooked with auto combos and super dash because I could actually DO the cool stuff even as a beginner. After a while it made me want to practice getting quarter circle inputs down (still took me almost a hour to get A16’s grab combo down), how to do manual combos, how to IAD, and to get into other fighting games.
I remember trying to get some friends into strive when it came out and most of them dropped it within a few weeks, the reason for all of them being that memorizing combos and motion inputs was too much work. And they’re right, it’s simply too much commitment to expect noobs to sit in training mode practicing execution for hours to even perform the most basic fundamentals.
Sorry to hear that about Strive & your friends. I introduced Strive to someone too and they even bought the game, but I never heard from them about it afterwards. I can only assume they dropped it and regretted the $60 spent.
I feel like fighting games fail for most people the moment they become a chore or "work". And for better or worse, it's on the player to decide how they want to approach that load if they do stick with it.
Even for someone like me who plays fighting games casually, I find doing the tutorials for games I'm not initially familiar with to be a drag toward the end (ex. KOF XV, MBTL), and I never look up deeper aspects like frame data. But I've been enjoying playing a few online matches of SFV 1-2 times a week and watching my replays afterward. And whenever I try a new character in a fighting game, I'll always go into training mode to see how they work.
It does help when fighting games are like "hey new people, you don't have to do ALL THIS WORK to play our game right away!" But we all know they're rarely like that in actuality. And maybe simpler games are the future going forward, but that brings up the topic of "should all big fighting games be simpler?"
Memorizing all the map layouts in a shooter is so much worse. You need to memorize the map, all the pathways to and from a site, any important lines of site. You also need to memorize any special weapon drops. If there’s any destructible terrain you need to know that.
Something like League of legends has over a hundred matchups to memorize. If a champion you’ve never seen hits you with an effect you’ve never seen and you don’t know what to do you are dead.
Compared to a fighting game you can qcf, qcb, and srk for the majority characters you still need to learn matchups but there are far less characters than in a moba or shooter. Most combos work off of internal game logic. In GGST CS>FS>HS. All moves cancel into specials.
@@frothyslider253 I wouldn’t say memorizing map layouts is worse but it is something that feels like a big chore but one thing about fps games is that your killing multiple birds w one stone in a single match cuz map knowledge will come naturally as you play to improve other stuff like your aim, or awareness n stuff but in a fighting game u kinda have to take it one step at a time then eventually it all comes together
@@frothyslider253 I think the difference is there's a big enough playerbase in FPS and MOBA games where you can just hop in and play even if you don't know any of the champions or know any of the maps and not get completely destroyed. You can't really do that in fighting games except for the first few weeks of a big game launching. But I think a similar principle actually applies if you want to play older games FPS games like TF2/Overwatch, you'll be facing people who played the game for years and will probably get crushed since there's barely any noobs left.
I've always found that strange; the way I've always tried to get better in any Fighting Game has been to play it more; staying in training mode makes it both feel boring and ends up tricking you into thinking very specific situations will come up more often than they actually do.
It’s funny E. Honda was the character chosen because of mashing, because in SF4 I did the same thing with Chun-Li.
Personally, I can’t help but think that it wouldn’t be that different even if they were playing a game without motion inputs. Pretty much all that I played still have things people find frustrating about the genre.
What's funny is I play fighting games like no one's biz, but I cannot hit the broadside of a barn in FPS games.
I feel it. Man, the number of times I felt this way over FPS!! Each genre takes its own kind of skill and knowledge, and I commend these FPS pros for giving their all and trying out a fighting game. Don't worry about it, Noko! We all started here!
>street fighter 5
>frame perfect combos
wait what ?
This was a great video. I'm really hopeful that this wave of newer, more casual-friendly fighting games like DNF Duel, and maybe Project L, will help bridge this gap for beginners to enjoy fighting games. I don't know if I could have gotten into fighting games if it wasn't for Smash Bros. Playing that game casually for years laid the foundation for when I started to play competitively, and then that laid the foundation for learning more complex fighting games. Having to jump straight into something even relatively simple in the FGC like SFV or Strive would be pretty daunting for a complete beginner to the genre. If we get more games that can function as a "gateway drug" into fighting games and gradually introduce players to important skills without overwhelming them, while still being fun and exciting, I think it will be a great thing for the community overall.
I found it funny that, when it was showing the games logo, all the fps had these boring ass white font. Then u got SFV burning with personality, lmao
Now I'm understanding why people want SF6 Logo to change
well capcom legit has weird rules about you messing with the SFV logo. Like if you are in the content creator program and you edit it, its grounds for expulsion.
@@Zevox87 because that's what they are selling, just another shooter, point and click, that's why this guy is good at all of them and can't understand how fighting games are hard to learn, he's used to picking up shooter #512 and playing it just like the last one
(it was probably edited just for the graphic and the other comment said they have weird rules with sfv logo so they couldn't do it with that one but I felt like going on a rant even tho I like all kinds of games)
@@SerechII Your comment is ignorant to the complexity and variability offered by shooters. Sure you can go from Quake to Rainbow 6 and do well because of common skillsets, but they both have distinct rules and systems just as fighting games do.
Fighting games are essentially "The World's Most Nuanced Battle System: The Game". Where most genres want you to feel powerful even at a low skill level, FGs by nature expect you to scaffold your way to putting the pieces together until you can get to the point where you can do the fun stuff. But even then, that's not why most FG players play these games. We play them because we want to overcome stronger opponents. The awesome combos and cool mixups are just a means to an end. For players who aren't knee-deep in FGs, the cool combos and awesome moves are the end. I think these streamers would have had a much better time playing Soul Calibur VI. In that game, it's so easy to feel like a badass without breaking a sweat.
People talk about bad FG tutorials but frankly I don't see other games doing a significantly better job. The difference is in intuitiveness. As Noko said, shooting in an FPS is point and click. That's simple and intuitive concept for anyone to understand. Put the crosshair on the enemy's head and fire. To be clear, I am not talking about being good at shooting. I'm talking about understanding what the central concept of an FPS is. FGs say you need to deplete your opponen's health bar before they do the same to you. So, you press a button and a few seemingly disconnected attacks come out. Then your opponent blocks, what now? Oh, they fought back and while you're trying to figure out what to do, you've been placed on your back several times. Each time you get up, you get hit while you're trying to fight back yourself. And before you know it, it's KO. Then you wonder, how do I use my awesome special moves? How do I combo half their lifebar away? What do all of these gauges do? What's the circumference of a moose???
What I'm trying to say is that FGs are great games that have existed in stagnation from a design perspective. We think that switching from motions to simple inputs is a big shift but I'll argue it won't make that big of a difference. The problem of intuitiveness will still exist. In order for FGs to become more appealing (meaning fun at a basic level) they need to be a) understandable, b) consistent, c) learnable and d) engaging. Frankly speaking, I don't know how that can ever happen, at least with 2D FGs.
Having a half decent tutorial system is more important for fighting games because they’re not intuitive. All you need to do is ease people into the basics of the game and then encourage them to test things in a lab, look for help online by asking questions, and then give them a fat library of tutorials they can optionally go through to find the answer to a question they have easily whenever they feel like they want to learn a new thing they may not know.
@@robbierotten2024 It depends on the person and how far they want to go with the game. I don't have any statistics but I'm willing to bet a good chunk of people would rather just pick up a controller and play. If a single player experience can be devised that intuitively guides players towards learning without making it feel like a tutorial, it would be an ideal solution. Having optional libraries of tutorials is only good for people who want to go a step further with the game or prefer self-paced learning.
Soul Calibur 2 specifically, but Soul Calibur has some of the most intuitive yet also deepest approaches to motion inputs and how they relate to the various normals. It's easy to understand and pick-up but deceptively hard to master; most of my friends don't play fighting games, but the few that I can get into them all love Soul Calibur.
I think this is probably one of my most favorite videos that you've done. But at the same time, I totally understand because when playing shooting games, I feel the same way. I've had times where i've snuck up on my opponent, started shooting them, at fairly close range, and then turn, take a couple shots, and I'm the one that dies. I don't understand and it's completely frustrating. So much like Mr. Noko doesn't understand fighting games, I feel the same way about shooters. I am terrible at them, and people who can just drop opponents in a few seconds baffles me.
This was amazing. That guy had me cracking up with his salt. I really wanna watch this tournament now
I'm not a pro fighting game player, but I do play competitively. This makes me feel soooooo good lol. He thinks SFV is the hardest game he ever played? It could argued that SF4 was harder. Hell try Tekken lol. Nice upload Roof. I can't lie, I don't want motion inputs to go anywhere but I think the simplified controls are the future.
yeah sfv is amount the more beginner friendly fighter without an auto combo system, like if they went with the new kof even with it having an auto combo system it is way harder than sfv in my opinion
Hard disagree with Tekken. At low levels Tekken is a ton easier it's harder once you get to pro levels. And yeah I genuinely think SF4 was harder than SFV
@@OseiTheWarriors Agree to disagree. Once you rank out of green in Tekken its on. Plus you add an extra dimension into the equation.
@@bumpyface228 funnily enough I think sidestepping is a factor that makes it easier. Tekken has no inputs and T7 even had auto combos (they were bad but...). For this tourney I think Tekken would've been a better choice but yeah to each their own.
But with Tekken you can do many moves by just mashing button cus it's so complex
I really appreciate Noko's candor and praise for fighting game players. I'm laughing at his salty speeches, but I understand as we've all been there.
Reminds me of the MK11 streamer tourney that happened last year. It devolved into Sheeva spam but the guy who won was someone who actually learned a combo from Perfect Legend
Its funny how Noko thought how unenjoyable it was even though he is essentially playing against people at the same level. I mean, I played street fighter 2 when it first came out. i didnt know what I was doing but so was everyone else! It was such an enjoyable game. When I tried playing sfv after all these years, I got thrashed. Didnt enjoy that part but I got motivated to learn. Then I got on your channel and many others and tried to learn more. Its a really really deep rabbit hole and I need to watch many videos on the same topic to get more understanding. i mustve poured hours and hours just to learn the most basic stuff. While I am enjoying it, I am sure it will turn off a lot of people. The time investment is probably the most for any genre out there
Noko coming out with the nicest salt rant I've ever heard, mad respect
Noko sounds like he doesn’t realize how bad he was at fps at a point. He wasn’t born a pro. Starting any genre from scratch is frustrating. Even something as simple as clicking on people can take years to refine the reaction speed and precision needed to feel competent in most gunfights. Map knowledge and smart equipment use are among those fundamentals as well. On average, the players with more experience in any genre will win more often
Your wrong. Your talking about playing on a competitive level like obviously being a pro at anything is gonna take time but it takes significantly more time in a fighting game cuz of all the mechanics and matchups you need to learn and master. A fps game at its core is simple and anyone can do decent if they have good aim and some map knowledge but In a fighting game it take a lot of learning different mechanics, combos neutral just to be ok or decent at the game
@@raekwonchambers2297 that’s the thing about it. People say that fighting games are much easier and more simple on a casual level as well. Learning a game genre is like learning a language. It’s easy to believe that fps is everyone’s native language since it’s so popular. I’ve personally had a humbling experience only a couple years back getting into csgo and valorant when the most recent fps I played before that was black ops 2 on the ps3. With fighting games and card games as my native language, I felt so incompetent like I was dead weight to the team. I felt like how noko did in sfv. My aim on mouse felt like it was years behind everyone else and my only options were to either grind it out and just be bad for hundreds of hours until I’m not, or meticulously practice on aim lab until I can click on heads faster. It’s a completely different flavor of precision that is never experienced in fighting games
@@Scoop_Phase I think fps are more simple than fighting games cuz the stuff you need to focus on in fps games are pretty straightforward like aim or positioning but they also take the most time to master so yea it’s a completely different type of difficulty cuz all those years of learning aim won’t do you any good in a fighting game
This takes me back. Back in the 90's I was the only one in my group of gamer friends who played fighting games. While they were playing PC games at PC rental stores, I was at the arcades playing various fighting games. Fighting games are hard especially for people who have never used an arcade stick before. Heck I stopped playing fighting games for more almost 15 years until I regained some interest when SFV came out, and it took me more than 3 months just to relearn how to use an arcade stick. I could imagine how hard it would be for someone who has never used one in their life.
I remember the first time I tried learning how to play SFII. It was the hit game at the time but I didn't know how to play it, and I knew no one who knows how. First time I played I was nervous because people were watching and I didn't know what to do. I was culture shocked with the 6 buttons since I got used to beatem ups with only 2 buttons. I picked Ryu since that was the default and the CPU was Chun-Li. I got my ass kicked since I didn't know what to do and was so nervous with so many people watching, and someone in the arcade said "ha! he got beat by a girl". One day I got this Gamepro issue that included a guide for Dhalsim, Zangief, and Vega, but I misunderstood the commands. Like Dhalsim's Yoga Fire says "d, df, f + P" and I thought it meant I had to press down twice then forward twice then punch. I was shy and I didn't want to embarrass myself again, so I found an arcade with no players and I tried to play Dhalsim there after reading the guide. This was my second time playing SFII. Thing is immediately after starting, a girl my age challenged me and picked Zangief and she just kept mashing Spinning Clothesline. I lost badly since I still didn't know what to do. And once again I was defeated by a girl, but a real one this time hahaha.
OMG watching that Honda clip is like watching my friends play fighting games. I would have destroyed every playing in that tournament, and I loose all the time at local fighting game tournaments. This guy literally complained about how the game requires so much skill that you can't win with luck. GOOD!
You make a great point about tutorials. Even for the games that invest a lot into their tutorials to make them beginner-friendly (like Strive), I wonder if there's potential for explanations to be broken down even further.
ex. Motion inputs attacks. I remember when I was a kid and played SF on a PS2 controller, I struggled learning how to do a hadouken -- I would press the d-pad (down, down-forward, forward) and then the attack button, but nothing would come out. Later I found out I wasn't pressing the attack button fast enough, and that it's supposed to be a continuous sequence. It's not hard once you know how to do it, but that was something I only learned after spamming the commands out of frustration and wondering if I wasted my $ on a game.
I get that the controllers people play on will be different, so explanations for how to play may not always be consistent. But maybe this is what fighting games need to do if they want to keep traditional mechanics alive. New players aren't dumb, but devs can do their part to make communicating concepts even more clear.
Dude thank you for this.
Its definitely interesting when you think about all the stuff you figured out be so hard for those players. Doing a DP for example was tough, but now 2nd nature. Atleast they made an attempt and maybe a few might try again.
I'm new to the fgc and I struggle a lot with pretty basic execution. Some motions just don't feel very good for my hand to make and I fail them a lot. Timing is also very difficult to wrap my head around as well.
My saving grace is Potemkin. If I can land a buster then I usually have the round and I never feel like my hands ever have to do anything complicated or difficult to get results. Watching people play Pot is what got me into the fgc and I'm in deep. I'm absolute garbage, but I love the games and characters and community and wanna get better.
Good luck dood. Strive not my game, but I loved being a idiot with May. I couldnt do the dragon punch for years as a kid. I finally got my own street fighter 2 cart and played the crap outta it until I could do all the moves. Once you learn it and can pull it off when you want, it always feels good to do it. And you'll never be 100% even with fireball.
Just keep at it bro in everything you wrote is a key 🔑 is motivation and people like roofle, trueunderdog and many others helping with tutorials and combo guides little by little bro you'll have it man
Pot buster is the single most rewarding move to land, it feels sooooo gooood!
Those uncomfortable feelings in your hand is your muscle memory adapting and remembering the motion inputs and the timing. It’s like learning to ride bicycle.
So keeps practicing until those uncomfortable feelings gone. What you should is every time you boot up the game, you go straight to training mode and do motion input like quarter circle back or forward 10 times without fail. If you fail then start over the count from 1 again.
Execution mistakes are part of the game at all skill levels. It's part of the risk/reward aspect of the genre. Do you go for the harder, more effective thing or the safer, less powerful thing? At high levels it's the difference between trying the optimal combo or using your bread and butter, for you it's the difference between trying to land pot buster or settling for a normal throw, but it's the same choice.
A shame RTS games aren't very much around anymore, because those were HARD as well. Cue in those clips of Starcraft Brood War pros just SMASHING their keyboards, like, 200+ keys per minute, micromanaging an entire map and all. Man I miss that
That last quote was awesome 😂
Ive been thinking how they could help noobs.
For starters they need role icons / fighting style icons next to the fighters similar to how they do in mobas, with a detailed description of what that style is supposed to do.
Mayb have a video breakdown of it in action when you click a more info tab on the fighter! A general gameplan!
Zoners, Grapplers, Shotos, and so on!
What about characters that have different % of each style
@@notproductiveproductions3504 can you give me an example of one? I'm coming up blank....
@@notproductiveproductions3504 but off the top of my head they could call it hybrid or specialist with a tag to go with it.
Thank you for the inspiration, Noko! 😂
As a very casual fan of fighting games, I've always been weirdly attracted to how, well, difficult they are. I liked KOF's complex motions and mechanics because, to me, they required a degree of skill beyond mashing to "get good." I stuck with the series over the years, but never once have I considered myself "good" at it. Like other FGC content creators have said of the casual FGC audience, I just like to hop in, press buttons, and see some cool stuff happen.
I think simplified controls will certainly help get more people into the genre. Personally, I was a little disappointed when KOF introduced the auto combos, but if it helps people get hyped for KOF's future, and for other fighting games in general, then great!
I think this was a great experiment, and I would love to see more like this. It really puts into perspective where we came from, and how far we've come. There may be a lot to learn from this.
If there's one piece of advice I would give to new players, it's don't think, just play. You'll figure out the details over time. In this scenario, they're having to cram years of experience, and information in a very short amount of time. So I can certainly understand their frustration. I think they have potential to become competent players if they understood just the basics, and fundamentals.
I haven't seen this event for myself, so I don't know the extent to how they played. Going by what was shown here, they seemed more focused on the execution of special moves, and combos. Given their limited amount of prep time, I think someone could've greatly excelled just by learning to play patiently working a good defense. It would've driven the other competitors crazy wondering what the hell they're supposed to do. For offense, simply learning how their character's normals worked would've worked wonders. Just ask David Sirlin about Rose's low strong in SFA2.
Even though I'm not all that great myself, I would love to sit down with these players, and show them the things I wish I knew when I was just starting out.
It was really flattering of him to say that
this is a small thing but another big thing that makes it harder to take losing at fighting games: you're never sniped or ambushed or anything like that--you ALWAYS see it coming and you can't get away from it. it's not quick or merciful, it's a protracted fight out in the open, and that is STRESSFUL
that's stress full. so seeing the kick or punch coming your way and having all the time in the world to react is stressful, but not knowing where the F a snipper shot will come from isn't....?
OK?!🤦♂️
This is a great video. It sums up why there is a wall between the fgc and other games.
6:02 "that's an elegant way of putting it" that shit is funny. Watching this warms my heart in a weird way makes me remember when I was getting mad at fighterz when I was new. Though that was sure a few years ago.
"if you don't know what you don't even know" : as a beginner, facing a player with more knowledge than me, is the most stressful thing but it is also the most exciting thing.
"if I knew this before!" into "ok now i'm doing it" is the best proof you are improving and for a multigaming player like I was, I have never had this feeling so much than in a fighting game.
Luckily it is also the type of game on which players share their knowledge the most.
Thank you for your guides !
I think the sole reason why there aren't any good tutorials (that teach you as you play)
is because either they don't know how or they just don't want to bother to figure out how and is probably "too much work" to even think about it
For some reason this discussion reminded me of Core-A Gaming vid on Honers vs Innovators.
Literally no difference between Fighting-Games and FPS games if you look at it at the competitive level. I just recently started playing FPS-Games (Rainbow SIx, Hunt Shodown) and didn't even know why i was losing. Sometimes dying in under one or two minutes. The only difference? The playerbase and the knowledge-base that has accumulated with FPS games. Fighting-Games could be the same in a different "time-line".
Lag in CoD: you get taken advantage of
Lag in Tekken: you get called a Marshal main
I learned Tekken from watching clips of matches I lost and learning the recommended combos. I think as a tutorial/ practice mode games should drop you in a match with a computer and have you fight, while occasionally having popups recommending specials and combos as the computer gets progressively harder the more popups you complete. I'm not sure if it would difficult to implement but just my 2 cents.
That guy was a clown. I was very disappointed by someone with that size of a platform using it to have a meltdown and bash the genre.
Gun - Point at someone and they die
Martial Arts - Spend entire lifetime mastering one inch punch
There's a reason genres exist. They attract different mindsets and attitudes.
Thank you for this
Another commenter mentioned this, but something highly overlooked is teaching combo structure. I didn't realize until very late that combos weren't just one long string, but are almost always composed of much smaller sequences. It turns out fighting game designers aren't insane!
Hahaha that clip in the beginning is so funny
I feel like these kinda “rant” clips by those that don’t play FG’s I feel are part of the reason we keep getting auto combos instead of just solid tutorials.
“This game is bullshit, and takes no skill! Any random guy can mash buttons and win, it doesn’t reward skill at all”
“This game is too skill based and hard, a random guy can never beat a guy better than him. I miss button mashing”
The duality of gamers
The difficulty of learning depends on the age you start playing your favorite competitive genre(s). I got kicked around by my older brother in halo, tekken, smash and marvel growing up, as well as my friends in COD. The innumerable amount of L's I had to take just to play the game.. but I was too young to care. Then I started learning on my own. Blazblue was the first game I picked up with the intention of getting good at it after seeing a tournament of it in person. That was a journey I'll never forget. Don't be afraid to lose, be afraid of not learning from the loss
This sort of this is actually why I'm thankful that I got into fighters grinding games against my equally inexperienced friend group instead of my first experience being getting rolled over by randoms online. Back then every discovery felt like proper anime training awakening bs, and getting better alongside people I actually knew really kept me invested for the long haul.
Yeah, this is a huge thing. It's easy to find the fun when your opponents are total newbies and so are you. It's a lot harder online, even "new player" lobbies and tournaments are filled with players who probably have been playing for at least a few weeks, probably months. That first day, first week, that is the really hard part.
Motions are NOT an entry barrier. Virtua Fighter and Tekken combos are mostly strings of buttons and command normals. Yet Virtua Fighter is among the hardest games to learn. And it has just a punch, kick and guard button. Simple inputs and a few buttons don't stop it from being deep and complex. If you want to make a button masher break down... play Virtua Fighter with them.
That said, fighting games have a high entry barrier because of numerous elements and mechanics to understand. Movement is simple enough in most of them, unless they're Guilty Gear, Under Night in-Birth and Melty Blood. And then come the attacks. It's not just a simple click, you need to understand that each attack has three segments: startup frames, active frames and recovery frames. And that's just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. To love fighting games, the player needs to enjoy the learning process. Sure, everyone wants to do cool combos and all... but they're not the only fun part by themselves. If getting to that part isn't fun too... then fighting games are not your genre.
can I just say: I hadn't heard of this event (i'm not really a deep competitive fan anyway beyonds enjoying SonicFox making the commenters mad by staying the GOAT)
The idea of a fighting game tournament populated entirely by people who don't know how to play fighting games but have to take it EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY sounds super fun to watch
AT&T ran this tournament last year too (I think) with MK 11, and there was a big blowup on the same topic because of a player who got stomped by another player's Sheva...stomp. They couldn't react to the attack properly and were crying on stream, so the clip went viral unfortunately.
I guess it's a topic that will always come back for the rest of time.
"When you don't know what you don't even know." - That's so important
His little excursion about fight sticks makes me laugh so hard. That was just perfect.
ive been there, i remember this part of the journey
This gonna open a can of worms in fgc twitter, it already has it seems.
This makes me feel good as a competent Fighting game player.
I play both fighting games and shooters. All about finding one you like and putting in the dedication.
Thank you for this cometary
As an old school arcade gamer, I had tried to get all of my children to try and play different types of classic games. Although adults now (all of which who play different types of games) only my daughter has become part of the fgc but it was through many many hours of practice and patience. This has always been an issue with fighting games in general, they are already aimed at a very niche male-centric audience and those games based on legacy skills have an even steeper learning curve. It also doesn’t help that most fighting games have different play styles which emphasize different things depending on the hardware and engine they are developed for. As you have pointed out in this video, most fighting games especially those based on arcade franchises, aren’t designed with the idea of easy indoctrination of new or beginning players and this really does need to change if this much beloved genre wants to move forward and become a part of the larger gaming conversation. Things like a better tutorial mode and ways to learn and build off of the skills that are essential to that particular fighting game’s engine are quite important but those types of details are usually buried deep in novelist and through many hours of play that is if said person is willing to devote their time and energy as well as the $ (which has been a huge barrier of entry) to a fighting game just to get owned online by other hardcore players whom have dedicated years and copious amounts of money to a particular series. This isn’t an easy question to answer but the fundamental mindset in the development of fighting games will need to change if there is to a larger community or wider audience appeal
fighting games are rage itself. I remember being 10 years old and getting my ass kicked for like 3 months before doing my first combo.
I've always said on fighting games there motion imputs are where the depth comes from they allow for a crazy number of moves to be tied to a single button and when you master then you master at least one character in every game by default but they also are the gate that keeps new people from entering the community I've always said they should stay but games shot have like a simple input system like in MVC so if you want you can learn the game and do crazy shit or button mass and do simple stuff so you don't feel like you always get steam rolled by someone else its like when I started guilty gear strive I never went below floor 9 and was in 10 if it wasn't a bad day finding out the norm was floor 5 blew my mind I was like huh I forgot when your new to fighting games even the more simple ones really are challenging anyway happy easter everyone have a great day
Power Rangers Battle for the Grid is also a good example of a fighting game with no motion inputs. You can do crazy stuff in that game.
I don't think every game "needs" a simple inputs mode and honestly IDK if it helps a person learn the game at a somewhat competitive level (it probably does tho). Some games are balanced around the input system
GBFVS does this with the skills. Your specials have cooldowns kind of like a MOBA. They can be executed either through a motion input or by pressing the Skills button and a direction. They do the same thing, but the input version has less cooldown, deals more damage and has more priority than the simple version if it's an invincible move like a reversal or a super (a Gran 623L will always beat a Gran 6S despite being the same move because of the input priority).
The easy input gives casual players a shortcut to do the "cool shit" and the drawbacks are adequately negligible at a casual level (cooldowns barely matter at that point).
I think the issue with motion inputs for new players is that it's hard for them to grasp them and remember them, especially if they don't play that regularly. They might be able to do it (albeit not consistently) but it's not a tool as easy to remember as, say, a MOBA skill (long cooldown ones like LOL' s summoner spells are a bit more akin to the burst, especially flash) that you can look at it and say "oh, right, i have this". Having a movelist cheatsheet is a godsend for this reason but most games don't have a space to fit it in like the ones in Melty Blood or an arcade cabin's frame.
Strive was made to be beginner friendly too, and for beginner progression, it does a really good job at sorting players through tower and teaching mechanics through mission mode. But missions can still take a while and be a little overwhelming for someone new. Best way to learn is to just play in tower, since even if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re sorted into low floors where the people there don’t know either.
@@actualweeb3885 oh hell ya 100%
Very interesting video!! I think this was good exposure for fighting games, the difficulty may get ppl interested, anyone have a link to the tourney?
One video that helped me out a lot was juicebox video on footsies. I feel like once I understood that concept everything started to fall into place . I don’t think there’s any fighting game that teaches the concept of footsies currently
4:37 the fact i managed to beat kof 97 with ralf, benimaru and chang back when i was a starting and felt like a god, makes me relate to this so much
fighters came out in 2017. that was my gateway fighter that made me realize that it was a lot more than just mashing buttons. after fighters I became heavily invested in other FGs and slowly started to understand the skill gap between them and the other genre of games. it is really difficult but I personally find motion inputs oddly... enjoyable. I love the whole concept of them. I feel like charge moves and motion inputs are fighting games to me, despite only playing for about 5 years. it just feels strange to not have them
Let's just be honest, Fighting games are hard. There's a reason they don't have million dollar tournaments
His tweet reminds me of me back in junior high when I've got PS2 and my friend made me buy Tekken 5 xD I hated that game so SO much! I said the same thing back then, but then I tried DBFZ, and after a long and hard relationship I found out that I enjoy figuring them out and playing, even though I still struggle to not rage from time to time :D
That being said, I think the circumstations of how Noko tried a fighting game kinda ignited the rage? Being it an event with a reward at stake (AFAIK?) and so on. It's definitely an insightful moment that opens up the debate about new people vs fighting game unverse.
That last clip of him saying fighting game players are superior, my response "well duh."
I Love street fighter but I feel I could learn brain surgery before I could begin to learn this damn game 😆
Noko: This is the hardest game I've ever played.
3s, Gg ac+R, MBAACC, Tekken 7 players : Do we recommend our game to him?
it's disappointing how little effort they put in, I've had fun playing with my non gaming girlfriend in sfv, they were just completely ruined by their fear.