Why We Venerate Images
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Recently there's been some online debate about icons and the veneration of icons. In this video, I try to take a step back to show the deeper reason why icons are important in the thrust and fullness of God's revelation in Christianity.
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 - How I approach this topic
00:01:36 - Intro music
00:02:02 - Thou shalt not make graven images/idols
00:03:53 - The reason for the 2nd commandment
00:07:19 - The Image of God
00:09:46 - Progression of the revelation
00:10:55 - The Son of Man
00:13:51 - The early church
00:19:06 - All the consequences of the Incarnation
00:19:50 - Worship and veneration
00:21:45 - The Name of God
00:24:37 - The Image of God in the Old Testament
00:26:01 - The 2nd Commandment is a promise
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My mind is completely blown away with the implications of this. Being made in the image of God truly changes how we ought to act and be in reality. Growing up protestant taught me about God, but discovering Orthodoxy has shown me God.
I wholeheartedly sympathyze. My heart smiles reading this. God bless you
SO TRUE! I never related to something so much lol
I'm happy the online Orthodox Christian community has been making more videos about Veneration lately. The pushback and attacks have been numerous.
Well said. Modern Iconoclasm. Heavy in movies too.
That might be true to a point - but you cannot and should not rest on previous defences. St. John of Damascus was a man of his time, and his excellent defence of veneration, albeit lengthy and often complicated, should be adapted to modern questions and contexts. The questions might be the same, but the reception and the analysis will change. For example, St. John of Damascus primarily dealt head on with Muslim attacks against icons and their veneration. This isn't necessarily the push back today, where the main objections stem from the reformed tradition which has had 500 years to sharpen it's exegetical and historical weaponry against anything it doesn't like. Granted, the Orthodox position is much older, but it's weapons were best arrayed against an islamic push back or internal objections. The world has changed, and so has the arguments and the evidence and so the technicalities of the objections. Laziness is no excuse now - it's simply not good enough. Perhaps the reasons for Orthodox angst against questions about icons - and the apparent exasperation they express about it - stems from a lack of engagement with western theology and theologians. The latter have a somewhat more academic style, and prefer their debates a bit more reasoned than "because the church said so". The reformation already destroyed any idea in the western mind that the church is and should be an absolute authority, and that's where we are at now. It's wrong, but that is the root of some of the rejection of Orthodox defence of veneration: the authority of tradition. For me, if you started there, everything else would fall into line...
@@TheB1nary the world keeps changing in circles. Our God does not change his standard according to the entropic degradation of the anti-theist modern world. That was wordy but lacked substantive rebuttal. What is your objection, or perception of the world’s from your POV?
@@TheB1nary agreed about the RC then Prot schism. Tradition is mocked and irrelevant to the modernist.
@@TheB1nary I’ll stand behind my argument that the tangible experience with Christ and his church, part of that being veneration of icons, is the end all to the modern anti-theist delusion that science knows all and we can experience it that is a tangible Christ
Let us pray Jonathan will appear on Joe Rogan
Yes! Although I could see Jonathan getting frustrated with the sorts of questions and pushback Rogan might have lol but id still love to see him on there
God has his eye on poor Joe :)
@@chrisbrownlov1 I think you might be surprised how creatively and humorously he engages with the questions in a way that honors them, and totally obliterate them. He’s not going to preach the gospel to Joe Rogan. He’s going to show how the gospel is relevant to Joe Rogan.
czcams.com/video/jdlczbO5Csc/video.html
@@OlympiaCHUD oh yah he definitely does, I think that a big reason why his audience has grown. I don't remember what they where but I do remember seeing in videos how Jonathan has responded to some questions you can easily tell he was annoyed with, and I know Joe has the potential to ask them, specially because of how graciously Joe speaks of catholicism.
The scholarly approach is necessary for apologetical reasons, but this approach really helps deepen the understanding. Thank you!
could not have said it any better, my friend
Thank you for this content! I am a protestant brother; however, lately, I've been joyously Blessed by the Orthodox Church! I am so glad to know that there is a great value that I can now understand on this topic! ❤️
The reasons protestants get hung up on the veneration vs worship distinction is most protestants from non liturgical anti eucharistic traditions never actually worship God, they simply venerate Him.
And of course the other facet of their lack of understanding is the west's denial of the essence/energies distinction which makes a proper understanding of how God works through His saints an impossibility.
*The reasons protestants get hung up on the veneration vs worship distinction is most protestants from non liturgical anti eucharistic traditions never actually worship God, they simply venerate Him.*
Straight up no-scope headshot right here.
Sorry for the video game terminology, but that's what this was. Actually attending a service that wasn't protestant forever changed my concept of Church and there was no going back, and I knew in my heart if I ever came back it would be to a Catholic/Orthodox Church (I'm Catholic).
The concept of radiance from glorified humans reminds me of when we meet celebrities. We do not meet the human, but their radiant principality from the light of our screens, and they have to hide their face to be in public. Although this is a perversion of divine radiance, it's a modern relatable phenomena to help us understand hierarchy.
Now I see people in general entirely differently. This video has healed my perception of the human race and individuals around me. Also, so many of the Saints sayings and Scriptures make better sense to me now. I’m so thankful for you Jonathan and for this video, and praise God that these scholars and detail seekers have gotten enough attention to bring this topic up and consequently this video as a balsam and a healing to our (or rather my) thinking.
Could you elaborate? How or why do you have a different perspective now?
@@SauerkrautX There have been MANY insulting, blasphemous, attack videos from evangelical protestant preachers attacking Mary, Saints, Veneration.
Johnathon pageau making a video is encouraging to those who are Orthodox to keep the faith and traditions passed down from the ancient church.
I don't understand why they don't focus on spreading the word, doing charity....instead of persecuting orthodox Christianity.
Just my analysis.
@Lynn Einarson to be fair there are plenty of Orthodox doing the same to protestants. I've been one of them, unfortunately. Lord help me.
However, I do agree with you. Jonathan Pageau has been so very helpful.
It turns out the horrific view of humanity present in calvinism goes hand in hand with the iconoclasm present in that blasphemic system.
@Sauerkraut X @Naval Orange Gazer has said it, the Calvinist mindset says that the human race is totally depraved. This view had seeped into my thinking. Jonathan reminds us that people were made in the image of God. Remembering this helps me when I’m tempted to look at people’s faults and reminds me to rather see the image of God, the goodness that they are imaging. When I’m in church for example, I could look around and notice that there are flaws and faults all around or I can look around and see the beauty of God all around. Even people with the worst sicknesses (sins) still have that image of God, it’s only dimmed or disfigured. This is helpful to remember when it’s time to love my enemies. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.
God bless you & thank you for your recent participation in the Exodus series.
I'm an Anglican and I pray with icons. They are very helpful for me to draw near to God and the spiritual reality through them.
Short answer that unpacks into a proper understanding of "Why we venerate images": Because of the Incarnation!
Jesus is a person, not an image.
We venerate the person of Christ, not the image of Christ.
No graven images.
@@briggy4359 That doesn’t seem true though. You don’t live in the times when Jesus was around, so you don’t worship Jesus’s person itself. He is not in front of you for you to worship. So, what are you actually worshipping?
@@jojox1733 I absolutely worship Christ. He is in heaven with the Father, but that doesn't mean he is far from me.
@@briggy4359Christ is in our midst. He is and ever shall be. One way He is in our midst is through Icons.
@@bradleyperry1735 its wrong to make graven objects of worship, regardless of who they represent
Thank you for this video. You are helping me a lot in going from atheism to Orthodox Christianity, this kind of interpretation make so much sense.
@@bengreen171Not a very good question.
Best wishes!
@@bengreen171 I was convinced by the argument. Materialism doesn't hold and Christianity have the best answer to the structure of reality.
@@bengreen171 considering most people throughout history thought they needed God, and since it's unlikely all of them had a life that went wrong, and since it's unlikely you happened to be the one person to get life correctly through most of human history, then maybe the correct question is what went wrong in your life that lead you to think you don't need God?
@@bengreen171 That is not what I'm saying. Getting rid of a faulty worldview is the first step into looking for a better alternative, and after getting captivated by the neo-platonic interpretation of reality I ended up with Christian thinkers, with Jonathan Pageau helping grasp the argument in a better way. From there, the change in my own life was enough for me to start walking this road.
Why does it bother you so much?
I can’t tell you how impressed I am with your work. You and your brother are absolutely geniuses and I just love you guys so much.
Many protestants would at least agree that it's inappropriate or even sacrilegious to burn or desecrate a Bible. Or the American flag. Or say a picture of their loved ones.
I think we can at least agree that there are situations in which it is appropriate to have some level of respect for a material object. This is what we mean by veneration. I wish we could at least get to the level where we all understand that worship and veneration are not the same thing.
I think you still refer to eastern orthodoxy through you protestant eyes. You mean an object as a symbol as a reminder like when you have a memory associated with it. I'm afraid this is not what most of the EO understand through veneration or how they refer to icons.
Man, to think, Jonathan is probably THE reason why I'm seeing Orthodox and Orthodoxy trending on Twitter all the time. - I started seeing his videos way back between 2017-2018. It makes you think, when you sow seeds, even though you don't see any response or changes to the content you're putting out in the world, if you're patient, you'll eventually see those fruits come to bear.
Man is theomorfic…this was a fantastic explanation Jonathan. As a born and bread Protestant I thank you for making all this so clear 🙏
This video is exceptionally timely. Thank you Jonathan
One of the best videos on this issue I’ve seen that really gets to the heart of the matter. Thank you, Jonathan.
When I listen to Protestants on topics like this, they make God sound so arbitrary and pointless. What I love about Pageau is his videos are always focused on what is the meaning. God creates for a purpose
Can you explain what you mean by pointless and arbitrary?
@@jonbolton491 so many Protestants focus on the rules God has given us without asking why. Why did God prohibit graven images? Why did God need to come as a man? Why did God need to be born of a virgin? What is God preparing us for in the next life? Why do we struggle with these things on Earth? Why doesn't he just heal us and make us perfect?
The story of scripture and the path of sanctification is not arbitrary. Everything God did has meaning and purpose, even the most mundane laws in Leviticus and the most random names from a genealogy. These aren't minor details to be ignored, they are a vital part to his plan.
I am broadly generalizing I admit, but many denominations make salvation sound like a carnival game that we all play for an eternal reward. Or the flipside is a vengeful God who creates people for no reason other than to damn them to eternal torment. True Christianity is much much more than that.
The polemics that Pageau is vaguely referring to started with a video from Gavin Ortlund, and that entire video is an example of missing the forest for the trees.
@@sentjojo Thanks for the clarification. But I will add that this arbitrariness can be justly applied to modern mega-churches but not what we normally call mainline protestant churches with their tomes of Church dogmatics.
Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. These have all gone in depth into such questions.
That being said, I want to make one small point. It is fruitful to dive into reasons behind God's commands as long as you keep in mind that He retains the prerogative to not give reasons for certain commands. It does not make Him arbitrary; it makes Him sovereign. He is king after all and we are subjects. He is the potter and we are the clay. Properly speaking, there is a limit to the answers we can get when we ask for the WHY behind every command.
@@jonbolton491 True and I agree, but God not revealing his reason for doing something is not the same as God having no reason for doing it. Often we only know the reasons due to revelation
@@sentjojo Agreed.
Oh man... the parable of the prodigal son makes a bit more sense now.
This was simply superb!
Thank you, Jonathan. I hadn't followed the online discussions, but watched this and it's a truly beautiful video
I often find my thoughts wandering during prayer an icon of christ helps me keep my mind on God.
Awesome video. Thank you for taking the time to make this.
I'm so glad that you made this video! I recently watched the video on veneration of icons made by the channel Truth Unites, and the whole time I was listening to him talk, I imagined what you might have to say about his arguments. Your response to it all, did not disappoint!
Such a treasure. Many thanks for your ongoing work
I think this is one of your best videos yet. Wonderfully well said. Godspeed
I had followed some of the online debates about this topic, and this is actually the best explanation I’ve heard. Thank you Jonathan.
Jonathan, the amount of times you knock me down completely is quite alarming. You changed my whole perception of life and I truly love you sir. Thank you for changing my life
"The 2nd Commandment is a promise that God will give us an image of himself, that God will restore the image of himself that has been tarnished and broken at the fall."
I've had the sense that people who reject iconography on the grounds of idolatry aren't too far off base, except that idols are a sort of inversion of icons. Icons are the true instantiation, the fullness that has now been revealed, which idols are a corruption of.
Do you have thoughts on this?
I think this is the best interpretation for Orthodoxy, although as an Anglican (in continuity with the Council of Frankfurt) I would still argue that being given an image of God by God (Christ) is not the same as creating an image of God ourselves (icons). Christ indeed is the true image of God, but an image of Christ is not the true image of Christ. Otherwise, why could not Jews make a and venerate an icon of the pre-incarnate Christophanies in the OT the same way icons were made of un-incarnate angels?
Fractals and hierarchies. Those who are Saints are the true images of Christ, but images of the Saints are as well, at a different level
@@j.athanasius9832 they probably did, look at dura europos.
Lastly, frankfurt didn't really have any lasting impact in the west as Nicea II was accepted.
@@jacobprice4544 It's a quote from this video.
This is a wonderful exploration of this topic. Thank you.
Jonathan
I just wanted to say thank you for your work in words of wisdom. Helping me and others to grow deeper in our understanding of The Word.
I have also replied recently to a video you did with Mrs. P. Discussing Communion…She was very kind in her reply.
Of all the content on CZcams, yours and The Peterson’s are the most worth while. Keep an eye out for my logo. I will be a regular and may be chiming in from time to time. Best regards PVVP
Thanks for this! Once I began to see that we are ALL created in the image of God - because we ARE images of God - it changed everything about the way I live and the way I see and treat others.
Also after reading St John of Damascus it seemed like nonsense that it is considered good to venerate God by reading the written scripture on paper from a modern printing press, but NOT okay to venerate God by kissing an icon of Christ or any beloved member of the body of Christ in the form of an icon or my own family members in person.
As if words of ink on paper are better or worse than a painting or a photo or a person in the flesh.
It shows how the modern world holds intellectualism / western scholasticism above true spirituality and even just basic participation in the Faith. My 1 year old can’t read, but he can and does kiss the icon of Christ, he’s been baptized, he takes the Eucharist every week and he even tries to sing along with the hymns. Westernized Christianity basically tells me that he can’t worship God until he can read and intellectually “understand” God. As if we can really understand the essence of God ever… It’s nonsense once I considered these things.
Great points. Helpful.
Great job, Jonathan. And helpful! I have a deep certainty that Jesus is the very image of God that was given, through Himself the Word, to Adam/Eve, - not just in some metaphysical, "spiritual" way but also His very human, and physical nature. In eternity, the Nazarean preceded Adam. We were made in his real image. Something like that...:-)
Those verses from the apocryphal life of Adam and eve shouldn't be taken as inspired, but they are absolutely a window into the understanding and culture of the early church, excellent quotation and should absolutely be considered as reliable for examining the theological understanding of our forefathers. Brilliant work Jonathan.
Great stuff as always, @Jonathan Pageau. 19:50 - Having become Orthodox recently, I still need to deepen my understanding of veneration and worship. However, thinking of it in terms of hierarchy helps: the way I honor the American flag is different than the way I honor my next-door neighbor vs my boss vs the president vs my bishop vs my mother vs a saint vs God Himself. Worship is truly different and belongs to God alone.
best content on this topic so far :) 👍
Sooo good Jonathan!
This is why Catholics greatly appreciate and thank the Saints and Sacred Scripture for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Even if you're not Catholic, it's worth looking at it through the Socratic Method. God bless.
Glory to God ❤
Exceptionally good video Jonathan
thank you! God bless you!
Best explanation of Venerating Images
Excellent video! You’re doing Oscar’s work!
It's so interesting that we have the "older brother not receiving the inheritance" pattern again in the story about the Devil and Adam... Wow!
Wow, that mention of the angel looking like a sphinx is very thought provoking, especially when considering how old the structure is and how occult imagery continues to pop up in things throughout history.
Great contribution to this "CZcams theology" discussion, and a thoughtful way of re-framing this.
For some of us who hold to a "reformed catholic" faith, the crucial issue is not whether or not people can venerate icons: if someone does that from the sort of theological framework you describe, I really do not see a problem. For many of us the issue is that Nicaea II anathematized to Hell anyone who does not venerate icons, which would include a great many of us Christians today, as well as many of the earliest fathers as well. I believe it would have been more helpful for them to approach this along the lines of Romans 14.
But all that said, the real question is this: Have you already made a video about Prester John? Have I missed that one?
I'm an Orthodox Christian too and I completely agree with you. I cannot bring myself to pray to icons and it is by no means a simple fact that veneration isn't worship. The only thing that makes them differ is the fact that the orthodox say they differ. All else looks and smells the same. I see no difference between worship and veneration of saints and icons in orthodoxy. At least in the orthodoxy that I am living in our age. And I live in a 90percent orthodox country. It is a common thing to hear from our very own priests that they don't even read the Old Testament. It is a common common common practice to become a priest because it makes you money. Icons cost 1leu at churches and monasteries printed on plastic and you can take them and fill your pockets, wallets and anything else with them. Should you "venerate" a 1ron piece of plastic with Jesus Christ depicted on it? Is that a portal? If so, will it be saved along with the other images of God aka Christians? Are all icons going to be put in an eternal museum? Or are they burning like everything else when God The Almighty will remake this universe?
@@mangispangi If you really believe this, you might as well be Reformed. Orthodox Christianity isn’t ethnic based. It shouldn’t be just based on what country you were born in.
@@mangispangi No offense, but you are missing the theology of the incarnation. God became man. Christ came to restore man and the whole cosmos. We are not worshipping wood and paint, but honor to the image of God in particular a Saint who is not dead, but alive in Christ. The worship is still to God, because it is only Him who deifies man. In a sense we are praising what God has done. Moreover God uses icons to work miracles (I have experienced) which should give you more thought to this issue. At the end of the day you are an icon (image) of God and by His grace may we both become more like Him brother.
The condemnations of Nicaea must be taken seriously, and I would ask myself why what might seem like a 'nominal'or 'perhaps permissible' practice was so important to them. As an ex-protestant I would suggest that being unwilling to use icons leads inevitably to some for of gnosticism (in varying degrees to be sure). God made in icon of Himself in the garden. The image was damaged. He restored in the I carnation. The incarnation really happened. God is depictible. The son is the express image of the Father and has been shown to us. If you had a camera in the 1st century, you could photograph God. Not using images runs contrary to incarnational thinking and to one of the main points of Christ coming: the restoration of creation. By becoming man, He also takes on a physical body. God takes on materiality and proceeds to both redeem matter and redeem material things like you and me through matter.
@mango spango I will add this comment: I think Fr. Stephen De Young points out well that the highest act of worship always is sacrifice. In an Orthodox Church, two main things operate as sacrifices: incense and (the highest act of worship), the Eucharist. Both are always offered to God and no one else (they prayer a priest prays before censing always offers it to God as a pleasing aroma). The Eucharist too, is always offered to God and it *is* Christ. We never eat the body and blood of St. George or offer the gifts to St. Andrew or anything. That way, an illiterate peasant knows the difference even if he doesn't have the vocabulary. "I can ask Jesus or St. George for help, but I only ever eat Jesus, and when I do, it's the most important thing I do as a Christian".
@@mangispangi How can you possibly be that perturbed by a practice I'm assuming you have submitted to and watched countless people perform for your entire life? Being scared of icon veneration is something that typically only affects inquisitors from Protestant backgrounds as it is foreign to them. The only other way I could see an Orthodox Christian being scared to venerate icons is if they already have doubt about their faith and are blackpilling themselves by listening to heterodox inquisitors and submitting to their frameworks.
Reminds me of a powerful passage in Gregory the Theologian:
“If [the devil] wrestle against you to a fall through avarice, showing you all the Kingdoms at one instant and in the twinkling of an eye, as belonging to himself, and demand your worship, despise him as a beggar. Say to him relying on the Seal [of baptism], ‘I am myself the Image of God; I have not yet been cast down from the heavenly Glory, as you were through your pride; I have put on Christ; I have been transformed into Christ by Baptism; worship thou me.’ Well do I know that he will depart, defeated and put to shame by this; as he did from Christ the first Light, so he will from those who are illumined by Christ.” Oration on Baptism 40.10
The word used is “proskuneo” which is usually translated “venerate” as opposed to “worship” in Orthodox theology
I really enjoy and appreciate Jonathan’s opinions and insights but to be honest, iconography has never sat well with me. Also knowing that at the earliest, iconography wasn’t accepted by the Catholic and Orthodox Church until the 6th century. I just have to go back to the early church and apostles and what they did and did not do. Probably why I’m a Protestant
Hello, I am from Georgia. Saint Andrew is a missionary of Mother of God to Georgia and founder of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Before he came to Georgia, Saint Andrew was called to Holy Mother of God and she announced the mission Saint Andrew was to complete - to preach Christianity in Georgia, the land of the Holy Mother of God. Apostle Andrew carried with him an icon given to him by the Holy Mother of God. According the historical chronicles and sources he left this icon to people to use it while pray. If icon is idol why the Holly Mother of God gave Apostle Andrew it and why he carried it with him?
Glory to God
I’m in Rome right now viewing the basilicas for the first time. Trying to reconcile these massive artworks of carvings & images with the Protestant imagery of the “old rugged cross.” The two seem so far apart. One thought I’ve had is that paganism was 100% practiced through carved image worship & I think the commandment is there to separate God’s people from pagan people. Jesus was different & wanted to be worshipped in spirit & in truth. Veneration of images confuses me as a Christian b/c frankly it’s hard to see the difference in that & idolatry when in every basilica I’ve gone into people are kneeling & praying in front of images that are not Christ.
Also interestingly Jesus left us nothing but eye witness accounts b/c it’s not faith by sight that matters to him. It’s Not seeing & believing that he praises all throughout the gospels. He said said do one thing in remembrance of him & that was communion not remember him through veneration of his mom or disciples. Jesus’s blood & body cared for in your heart mind & soul. Worshipped intimately through spirit & truth not veneration & not through sacrificial acts of others. Him alone. God alone.
Amen
Worship and veneration are two different things. Many Protestants have moved away from receiving the body and blood of Jesus as an act of worship. For Catholics and Orthodox Christians, receiving Jesus in the Eucharist and the wine is central to worship. The saints are alive with Jesus in heaven, they are a part of the mystical body of Christ and they are part of our Christian family. Just as you might ask a family member to pray with you, and for you, we ask the saints to pray with us and for us. We view many of them as worthy of honor (veneration) because of their heroic acts in service of Jesus.
People who condemn image Veneration, and say it wasn't seen in the Early Church, don't realise how really strange it would have been for the Jews in the Days of Christ to see men Bowing before Christ and worshipping Him. It would not be strange for us, because we have established the Diety of Christ, that He was God, but the Jews thought he was Merely Man, son of a Capenter, do you think many of them believed that he was the Express image of the Father? Think about the Woman anointing Christ with the ointment. To the Jews it was all pointless, there would never have believe that the God of Israel who Moses saw on the mount has incarnated in Human flesh.
I think that is why the Doctrine of the Incarnation is so peculiar to The making and Veneration of images. And the funny thing is that Many people, Protestants included kiss images of their loved ones and don't for a minute stop to think about what there are doing.
I have the utmost respect for J. Pageau. I'm struggling to understand not the use but the veneration of images. Why did it appear so late in the Church's history? Why don't we find one occurrence in the Scriptures? Many apostles died but the first Christians did not venerate their images, nor Jesus's. They could have had His most reliable image.
Also, the apocryphal text is nice, but we already know why Satan was expelled from heaven. The reason is found in Scriptures and it contradicts the one from the apocryphal text.
Thankyou for making this video, I still disagree with the veneration of icons and it is a large part of why I am not Orthodox or Catholic. However I find your argument or reasons why you practice Christianity in this manner the most compelling and honest in relation to others that I have listened to. Please continue to engage in these conversations, I really got a lot out of what you said and feel like I better understand the pro Icon Veneration argument.
What does your disagreement hinge upon, Samuel? I don't understand the debate well and would like to hear the opinion of someone on the other side. Thank you.
Thank you
From my understanding of the critique, the charge laid is that the cultic use of icons is not only absent from the early church, but consistently and regularly denied until several centuries later.
Saying “it might have taken Christian’s time to fully understand the scope” at 19:09 doesn’t do justices, in my opinion, to the divergence we see from the early churches explicit rejection of cultic uses of icons, to the later councils who anathematize those who don’t venerate icons. It seems there is more going on then just a change in understanding, but an actual 180 turn to require something that was once prohibited.
I’m a big fan of your work, Jonathan, but I do think the critique makes some significant points. It has been insightful listening to representatives from the different Christian traditions discuss this topic, so thank you for adding your voice to the conversation!
So while, the Judaic people had cherubim and whatnot, even on the ark of the covenant, they didn't pray to them or use them as intermediaries to God the way Christian Orthodoxy does with icons. For instance, Catholics have statues/sculptures but they don't pray to them directly or bow in front of them, definitely not kiss them.
Awesome that you can see!
They bowed down to them there was cherubim on the ark of the covenant and in the holy of holies. 😆 The cherubim are by definition intermediaries.
@@jlouis4407 There was no other way to contact God "directly" than through facing the ark, so, no, it doesn't quite work the same way as with churches. Every altar is not an ark in the true sense, but only far fetched, symbolically.
I wasn't expecting a sort of Newmanite development approach from Pageau, but this is probably the most convincing one of those that I've heard. Most EOs try to argue icons were a deposit directly from the Apostles.
Holy Tradition teaches St. Luke painted the first icon of Christ and the Theotokos.
Oh good, I'm actually glad there is finally something I don't agree with you on. With love and respect Brother Jonathan, God Bless 💛
im dying to see a symbolic interpretation of Avatar: the Last airbender. For what it's worth, it think it could be one of the most popular video's on your channel...
There are few shows I think are a "must" to show my daughter. Avatar the Last Airbender is what I consider to be timeless. It's setting is incredibly original and spectacular; the character arch's are top tier. Literally every episode could be talked about for an hour easily. The Airbender fan base is a passionate one- he would definitely gain their attention if he did a video on it.
Especially since Avatar series is coming back and there's hype around it now. Not like the fans have anything else to watch for a while lol
Storytellers did one, and he's Orthodox.
It is the glory of god shines on the face of moise
Amen
Hi everyone, I've been trying to find the video from Jonathan where he talks about double inversion, can someone drop the link please, thanks in advance.
I consider myself below catholics, haven't watched. just humbled and excited. ly Jonathan.
This is a very good response and the topic itself is important. It brings to mind a passage from Jung’s Aion: “These few, familiar references should be sufficient to make the psychological position of the Christ symbol quite clear. Christ exemplifies the archetype of the self. He represents a totality of a divine or heavenly kind, a glorified man, a son of God sine macula peccati, unspotted by sin. As Adam secundus he corresponds to the first Adam before the Fall, when the latter was still a pure image of God, of which Tertullian says: “And this therefore is to be considered as the image of God in man, that the human spirit has the same motions and senses as God has, though not in the same way as God has them.” Origen is very much more explicit: The imago Dei imprinted on the soul, not on the body, is an image of an image, “for my soul is not directly the image of God, but is made after the likeness of the former image.” Christ, on the other hand, is the true image of God, after whose likeness our inner man is made, invisible, incorporeal, incorrupt, and immortal. The God-image in us reveals itself through “prudentia, iustitia, moderatio, virtus, sapientia et disciplina.” St. Augustine distinguishes between the God-image which is Christ and the image which is implanted in man as a means or possibility of becoming like God.” You are so right it saying we aught to rejoice in the face of this revelation, not shrink away from it!
THIS🙏🏽🌟🙌🏽
3:45 on cherubs - just thought that idea of cherubs having mix of animal and human faces seems to correpond to the idea of some general possibility behind such living beings, like something closer to life itself.
Where do I find these recent iconoclast videos Jonathan mentions in the intro?
Yo that intro music is fire. Where that come from?
Thank you Jonathan, for your very interesting and insightful commentary.
I have always believed that God reveals Himself to us in ways we can bear or comprehend.
Abraham saw Him in the form of 3 men/angels and spoke to Him in the singular, and prostrated himself.
Moses through the burning bush etc.
The revelation of 'I AM' as Hypostatic, personal being as emphasised by St Sophrony of Essex. Of course the Great I AM becomes flesh, human nature has been sanctified to the full in Christ, this could be a very long comment, I will stop here.
"Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 13:43
"And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow." - Matthew 17:2
Has anyone ordered one of JP's beautiful t shirts?? I want one so bad but had a poor quality screenprint from teespring for my Jordan Peterson shirt. After 1 wash the graphic was already crumbling and after about 3 washes the words are barely visible 😱
Does this red sweater mark the beginning of a Mr. Rogers arc? I wouldn’t mind it.
Jonathan, one thing that has been pointed out to me about the Sabbath that is different from other commandments, is that it’s the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not explicitly reiterated in the New Testament. Perhaps that’s not so important, but it is something that gets mentioned as to why we are no longer bound by the Sabbath rules.
🍻🍻😎👍🏽 outstanding.
That got to the depths.
Godbless
Isn't the earliest description in the Apocalypse / Revelation ?? (17:07)
Can one venerate without bowing and not being in anathema?
Excellent conversation. When are you going to be ordained?
I have a question what's the difference between an ICON and a SCULPTURE? This is a question that I am struggling with... Because it was written in the ten commandments... (I commented before I watch the whole video.)
"Icon" - Colossians 1:15
Jonathan, this was really great - thank you. Have you considered the implications of all of this, the redeemed image of God that exists in the human person, on our current culture of pornography? When you were talking, I couldn't help thinking about how your approach to veneration of images might help guide people to the repugnance of the pernicious porn culture. Thoughts? Looking forward to seeing you at the Scala Foundation Spring Conference in April!
Fr Seraphim Rose would refer to pornography as "the devil's iconography"
The truth remain:
Veneration of image is a sin.
can you talk about the importance and symbolism of Soldiers Cast Lots for Jesus Clothing?
Thank you!
If you saw a picture of Jesus on a dart board would you throw a dart at it? If not then you venerate images.
It's too bad livechats end up having so many trolls. 🙄
In my Catechism our Priest said that the sabbath was not done away with. That it is still to be seen holy in the Orthodox Church
Why? I’m actually curious about the reason he gave you, since he’s a Christian priest.
Woah
Hey Jonathan. I’m just curious. What is the practical difference between veneration, and worship?
What might one look for in a person’s actions where one might say “Ah yes, this person is currently venerating, not worshipping.”?
The short answer is that worship involves a sacrificial meal. For Christians, this is communion, also called the Eucharist. This is the fullest extent of worship. Of course worship also involves veneration, but one can venerate those besides God without worship. There's a lot of good evidence but sadly don't have time to dive into. That's the short version. I'd recommend looking into Lord of Spirits. They have some episodes talking about worship. Start with the one titled "Eating with the God's" for this exact subject (though the whole podcast is very good).
Is bowing to a king worship? Is asking a government official for something worship? is bowing to a tribal chief worship? Veneration cannot be understood by anti-ritualistic moderns.
I worship God. I venerate the saints because they represent God to me; they are images of God. God is still the thing we worship, while everything that embody God might be venerated/lifted up from the things around them that don't embody God as succinctly.
Another example, icons are venerated more than other images because they better represent the subjects of our veneration. And really old hand-made icons with miracles associated with them are venerated more than printed ones that you use for a pamphlet.
@YAJUN YUAN was it possible to not worship but still honour the king? Isn't that one of the points in Daniel?
@YAJUN YUAN You asked about Nebuchadnezzar, not the golden statue. Daniel and the other Hebrews honour the king: they are high ranking officials in the kingdom. Yet they refuse to worship him. This is not complicated.
They remind us of the like of biblical figures and saints
So Satan refused to venerate us right? Because I believe you said he refused to worship us, but I’m not sure if that’s the right word
I have been convinced after all the arguments for using images, and veneration images of God. I still don’t understand praying through saints and Mary. That is something I don’t see any good explanations for.
Jon, why is a dog holding a cross in your merch ?? Whats the meaning behind that.
That's Saint Christopher
☦
Hi Jonathan. God's explanation of the second commandment in Exodus 20:4 is that God is jealous of the images. I was hoping to see you speak more on that part of the commandment, since it's confusing to me that God would be jealous of such an image. Why might that be?
Because it is worshipped in His place
@@jlouis4407 AND that it is a representation of a different god, which is why it is called a false idol, correct?
@@jojox1733 a representation of a strange god, yes
I’m not an Orthodox Christian, however I want to become one. And I was wondering if anyone else has noticed a LARGE trend of Orthodoxy presumably everywhere. It feels like something is moving within all humanity gathering us for something to come.
Become eastern catholic instead
After we do the work of defining a word..you know, so we all understand, should we go back and clarify all the words used in defining the initial word?
(Sounds like woman’s work..never done.)
🤷♂️