When Defending Islam Makes it Sound Worse
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- Response to @JakeBrancatella on his debunking of @apologeticsroadshow
Recently Jakes the Musim Metaphyscian recently put out a video where he claims to debunk all of David Wood's arguments. Here I point out some major issues with his response.
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I am so proud of you brother, as a Hindu, and I can guarantee you that you are into Hinduism for the right reason, and that's what matters. My big salute to you forever.
I think neither Christianity not Islam started in a violent way, both religions have good things, but the signs of human made politically inclined corruption is so apparent in both of these religions that it breaks my heart.
Btw, here is what I want to show you, I used to be very angry with BJP for their treatment of minority so I started studying Islam to battle Islamophobes, upon studying I found a logic contradiction of Islam, wrote it down (because I was immensely bothered by it)... I am pasting it down below for you to see, let me know what you think.
(Start) Allah's intended punishment for Shirk and Disbelief proves Allah is *FAR LESS MERCIFUL AND FAR LESS JUST* *than even the most morally average of human beings.....*
Proving the Holy Qur'an which says Allah is the most merciful and most just, a logically incoherent scripture....
And as the Holy Qur'an says itself, if you find any logical contradictions in this book, you can belive it is not from God almighty, thereby proving it's own self wrong.
Now lets see how....
Shirk and Disbelief, doesnt hurt any other sentient beings in anyway, causes no harm to any other sentient being, and especially none to Allah who is allegedly omnipotent.
Yet Allah swt chooses to punish you in the most painful way possible, for eternity, which is eternal hellfire, if you did Shirk or Disbelief, which causes no harm or hurt to any other sentient beings, and which is simply an extension of your freedom of worship, which is your birthright, because you are given free will by Allah himself (allegedly)....
Why does Allah choose to punish you in the worst way for that? Because it hurts his ego, makes him angry, but it is his already existing cruelty, that compells him to give you no less than the worst punishment for it, and he doesnt try to justify why do you deserve it simply for practicing your free will and freedom of worship. It is entirely Allah's egoistic whims and cruelty at play here, because he has no other reason to do this to you.
How does it make him less merciful and less just than human beings? Allah is said to love us (his creation) more than a mother can love her creation, her child.
Now ask yourself this, and this will clear it up for you, would you and your spouse, put gasoline on your child and burn him alive, if your child didnt call you parents and called some other pair parents? Or if your child loved his uncle and aunt more than than his parents?
Would you do that to your children? Or has the thought ever occured to you? You are the biological creator of your children. Allah is allegedly the creator of us all. So would you do that to your children?
If not then why not? Justice and Mercy and love.
It is clear that Allah, with his intended punishment for Shirk and Disbelief, doesn't have even one percent of the mercy that you as a human being do.
Allah is also pretty clear, you can be the most compassionate, noble, loving and self sacrificing human being in the world, you can have the best morals in the world, but if you do Shirk and Disbelief, and dont stop doing that before death...
Then Allah will surely punish you with eternal hellfire.
*So this proves even an average human being is far above Allah in mercy and yet Allah lied that he is the most merciful and most just.*
Hell, even career criminals would die to protect their children from harm, but not Allah, he will surely punish you for Shirk and Disbelief, such is his egoistic huvris and cruelty.
This is a logical contradiction that no muslim has yet been able to answer, and no faithful muslim ever can.
I mean a lot of muslims tried telling me that I am anthropomorphising human emotions over Allah's emotions. However that only makes this contradiction even more severe, because Qur'an says Allah is the "most just" and "most merciful", those are the exact words used in the Qur'an, now the terms "Mercy" and "Justice" have had their own meaning to human beings for far longer than Qur'an was ever revealed.
As such, since Allah swt did not choose to use words other than "most merciful" and "most just", or did not care to explain exactly how his mercy and justice has a different meaning than that of human beings, IT IS ALLAH WHO HAS ALREADY DONE THE ANTHROPOMORPHISATION IN HIS REVELATION WHICH IS THE HOLY QUR'AN. By calling himself the "most just" and "most merciful". Because Mercy and Justice are human qualities and human attributes, shared by other animals as well.
And if Allah already did it, then no Muslim should have a problem with anthropomorphisation over this particular subject. How can you go against something that Allah already did in his Holy book to mankind which is claimed to be perfectly preserved?
My best hope? The Holy Qur'an was once the uncorrupted word of God, but it was corrupted by human beings soon after the death of Muhammad PBUH, and the corruption was done in a way to eliminate any evidence of corruption. (End)
Great video, I agree the Muslim's argument was rubbish. When the Muslim guy spoke about Jesus been okay with evil actions, this is false. Jesus said when you are slapped in the face, turn your cheek so you can be slapped again. When Jesus was been arrested to be tortured and murdered one of his followers cut off one of the soldier's ear and Jesus stopped his follower and said to not fight back, to not be violent and then Jesus put his hand over the ear and healed the soldier's ear back to normal. What I can say is the fact the majority of Christians supporting the Jews to be so awful to people in Palestine just because they believe God gave them that land is abominable. If you have such great faith in God, you won't need to put action to anything, you will wait patiently for God's promise to you to arise.
That's my understanding of Jesus's message too. I'm not sure what Daniel had in mind when he claimed Jesus supports religious extremism. Such a weird line of argument though regardless of how false it might be.
@@TheologyUnleashed I think Daniel is alluding to OT atrocities commanded by God. David takes those as literal commands by God, to kill, pillage rape etc and claim that they were just, but christians that have (imho) more sophisticated views don't take these passages literally.
As an atheist, I think David and Daniel's views on such matters are really hard to defend. Btw I recently discovered your channel, you're putting out seriously great content!
@@thedude882 but he used the word Jesus, doesn't that mens it has to be from the new testament?
@@TheologyUnleashed Yes, but Jesus is God, I suppose.
How can you verify the bible (NT) was actual saying of Jesus as you implying above? The old complete manuscipt of NT was only exist in 4th century and the bible did not claim the word in NT is actual word if God.
Normal first accusation: the Crusades (#goRichardTheLionheart) - but they were not an expansionist war of Chistianity, they were a pushback against centuries of Islamic expansionism. Second: the spread of Christians by mercantilism, eg British East India company to NW India c.1612 onward, Spanish to the Latin Americas, etc. But that was nation state/commercial expansionism, not church-led (unlike the Crusades)
Yeah, I haven't studied this but I know enough to be very skeptical of what these Muslims were saying.
Christianity is no less evil than Islam. Read about the Goa Inquisition by the Portuguese in India.
Christianity is no less evil than Islam. Read about Goa Inquisition by the Portuguese in India.
Christianity is no less ev!l than Islam. Read about Goa Inquisition by the Portuguese in India.
@@Himanshu_Khichar - the was just the Catholic Portugese, not 'Christians' as a whole
I am Sikh ( Non Hindu Religion ) but our Sikhi Scriptures do talk about pure soul ( Vaishnava - Devotees of Vishnu ) has the topmost human consciousness as described in the scriptures. It has also been advocated in the Grantha-sahib. In the 9th verse (Astapati) of a hymn Sukhmani-sahib composed by Guru Arjunadeva, the word vaishnava has been well defined: “one who is bound to attain parama gati, the highest destination.”
It recites:
mithia nahi rasna parasa
mana mahi priti niranjana darasa
par stri rupa na pekhey netr
sadha ki tahal satsang heyt
Translation: Falsehood his tongue does not touch and for a glimpse of the Lord his heart longs. His eyes do not look at the beauty of other women, and he serves the saints and remains in their association
karan na suneh kahu ki ninda
sabh tay janay apas ko manda
guru prasadi bhikhi-da parharay
mann ki basna mann tey taray
indrijita panch dokh tey rahata
nanak kotimadhay ko aisa apras ||1||
Translation: His ears do not hear anyone’s criticism, and he considers himself lower than everyone else. By the grace of the spiritual master he is able to give up bad habits, and lust leaves his mind as he conquers his senses. He conquers his senses and is free from the five faults (anger, lust, greed, envy, and illusion). Nanaka says, one among millions is such a detached soul.
vaishnava so jisa
upara suparsana
bishana ki maya
tay ho-ay bhinna
karma karat hovai nihkarama
tisu baisno ka nirmal dharam
Translation: Vaishnava is one with whom the Lord is pleased. He is untouched by the worldliness created by the Lord. One who acts in inaction (without desire for fruit), only his (Vaishnava’s) religion is one with purity.
kahu phal ki ichcha nahi bachai
keval bhagati kirtana sangi racai
mana tana antari simran gopal
sabh upari hovat kirpala
Translation: He works with no aspiration for fruits. He is only engrossed in devotion and kirtana of the Supreme. One who Within his heart and by the activities of his body is always remembering Gopala. He is compassionate to all.
api dridai avroh namu japavai
nanaka oh vaishnava parama gati pavai
bhagauti bhagvant bhagati ka rangu
sagal tia gay dusat ka sangu
Translation: He is determined in devotional service and also makes others chant the holy names. Nanaka says, such a Vaishnava attains the liberation (parama gati). He is immersed in the color of bhakti, and stays away from the company of the wicked.
mann tay binsai sagala bharamu
kar pujai sagala parabhrahamu
sadha sangi paya malu khovai
tisu bhaguti ki mati uttama hovai
Translation: All doubts in his mind are destroyed. He realises that the Lord is everywhere and worships Him. One who washes the dirt of contamination of this world in the association of saintly devotees, his wisdom is the best .. (( Google for book titled Vaishnava Teachings in Sikhism by Radhika Kripa for entire article))
Sikhism is a very nice religion. No fanaticism, very peaceful.
@@TheologyUnleashed Unfortunately our Sikhi Community living in West have been Indoctrinated by Islamists and they are more Anti Hindu which is actually their parent culture...
All Dharmas of Bharat has.
1 Karma Theory.
2 Cyclycal Theory of Time.
3 Atma/Anatta and Miksha/Nirvana.
4 Knowledge Seeking Paradigm.
Muslims: "It's totally OK for us to kill people as long as Allah tells us to, but it's wrong if you do it!"
Christians: "It's totally OK for us to kill people as long as Jehovah tells us to, but it's wrong if you do it!"
Literally every Hindu, Pagan, Sihk, Buddhist, Shinto, and other non-Abrahamic religion practitioner I've ever talked to: "Why would you follow a god that tells you to kill people?"
Is there a punishment for murder in these religions?
As for a Christian, that's because God don't tell us to go around and kill people, and it isn't wrong to kill unless it's done because of selfishness, such as murd3r, where you kill a person because of your own selfish desires, but to just "kill", would usually be because of justice, and survival. Also, will you stand and watch evil continue without doing anything? Based on what you said below, you would have said, "yes", and What if killing was the best and only option? Will you ignore it? You would also say yes, unless you decide to change your perspective to a better view.
@@butterjupitar why did you completely ignore my direct question?
Where did the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob tell me to go around killing people?
You’re original comment was incorrect, and is proven incorrect by basic research.
Instead of engaging with me by answering a simple question, you decided to make a weird comment, slandering me by saying what I would do in certain situations, when you know nothing about me.
Why?
This is absolutely false claim ...ebmven in during just war muslim are not allowed to kill non combatant,women ,children,elderly people, priest ,monk
Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Christians are not violent.
Great reaction video.
First time on this channel and it’s owned my subscription.
Awesome thank you!
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Im a Christian perennialist who has a great amount of respect for the Hare Krishna movement. As far as Islam goes I don’t have much for fundamentalist Islam. I also have almost no respect for fundamentalist Christianity. I do have respect for Sufism and many Sufi thinkers. But anyway great channel keep up the great work.
Agreed. The fanatics in every religion are a problem. I think key attitudes and beliefs are more important than what religion you follow in many ways.
Mouselim must defend and justify Muham-mad
Mouselim must defend and justify fishlam
Mouselim must lie
Alhamdull-lie
Only Islamic Preacher i have heard so far who I think speaks most sensible is Shaykh Yusuf Hamza (( Although i don't buy their Philosophy but their devotional aspects towards Supreme Almighty is what appears Good ))... Thanks Arjuna;; You should make more of videos debunking these Extremist Islamist Apologists like Ali Dawah ;; Mohammed Hijab ; Mufti Yasir Wajidi etc they hold Extremist Views they Justify Evil practices like Sex slavery ; Apostacy; Child marriage etc ..
They justify it because Islam justifies it.
*Just as bigotry can blind emotionally, ideology can blind intellectually*
In today’s social justice ethos, if someone makes a racist or sexist statement, they are called out immediately. Prejudices of any kind are frowned upon. Usually, bigoted people are seen to be blinded by their emotions.
However, emotions aren’t the sole cause of prejudices. Even the intellect, which is normally meant to regulate our emotions and balance our perceptions, can blind. Such intellectual blinding happens through ideology, specifically, through ideological obsessions.
When we buy into an ideology, we see the whole world through the filter of that ideology. Rather than using the ideology as a tool to make better sense of the world, they reduce the world to that ideology - whatever doesn’t make sense within that ideology’s framework is neglected or rejected. Or it is explained away through various rationalizations - arguments that seem rational but are used to arrive at self-serving conclusions that may well be irrational. The Bhagavad-gita (18.22) deems such ideological obsession as knowledge in the mode of ignorance, wherein all of reality is reduced to a fragment
Thus, for example, people driven by leftist ideologies presume that anyone wealthy or powerful has become so by exploiting others. They don’t give consider the role of talent and commitment in fostering success. When they reduce the world to a struggle between exploiters and exploited, they become blinded to the many common causes for which the poor and wealthy can work synergistically. Just as leftist ideologies can blind, so can rightist ideologies.
Doesn’t the Gita also offer an ideology? Not exactly. The Gita offers spirituality and a philosophy that delineates the pathway for spiritualizing our consciousness. When our consciousness is thus raised above both emotional and intellectual blinders, we can then see things as they are. Seeing everyone as essentially spiritual beings is the best way to overcome bigotry.
Verse 18.22 - " And that knowledge by which one is attached to one kind of work as the all in all, without knowledge of the truth, and which is very meager, is said to be in the mode of darkness”
You should refer to Adnan Rashid from speakers corner and other videos debating christian apologies.
Can you please tell me what I might learn from him?
7:33 Look at how Church Fathers interpret these parts of the Hebrew Bible. Never literally, always as though it is a spiritual analogy.
Only Marcion has a literal reading, and he rightly rejected this violence-begetting being as not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but as some other being (like the Torah or the elemental spirits who are overbearing nannies, detrimental to any person or community who has spiritually developed beyond the need for these training wheels)
Cf Kohlberg on moral development
Cf Ken Wilber on quadrants and lines of development
9:45 their Theological Beliefs become more messy more and more we dive deeper into them..
Prabhu I have one doubt please clarify this.... Many Christians are saying that Our Srimad Bhagavata Mahapuraan was actually written in 9th - 10th century after Lord Jesus Christ.... Prabhu how to counter this ? how to prove that it's much more older than that ?
Many scholars say that. The question is what is the reasoning behind this idea. I've never seen good reasoning for it. One argument I heard was based on the sanskrit being more modern. But the Bhagavatam is an oral tradition so the sanskrit will be modern.
Have a look at the book called mahabharata myth of mystery. That gives some scientific defence. I think he talks about astrological dating I'd the Bhagavatam. Astrological events described in the mahabharata line up with 5 thousand years ago.
@@TheologyUnleashed Thank You so much prabhu.... Haribol ❤️🙏🏻
@@TheologyUnleashedSo the stories and messages may be old but the writing style is modern?
Though the Bhagavatam does say indicate that the equinoxes start on Aries and Libra which makes it at most 500 BC, but more around the 1st century AD.
Bro the Bible has it so much worse than Quran😅
Are you saying that the Bible is worse than the Quran?
@@jasons5904 I’m saying that the Bible has some truly heinous things in it, the Quran requires twisting to make it sound violent but the Bible contains some truly horrific crimes against humanity.
Humble request to you -- Please invite Radhika Kripa Devi Dasi author of book titled " Vaishnava Teachings in Sikhism"
I tried to reach out on FB and didn't hear back. I guess I need to do some more digging
I am an exmuslim so not fond of Islam, but your view of why there is much less religious diversity in Islam having to do with the sword is for sure false, also your implication that there is far more violence or calls to violence in the Quran as compared to the Bible is also false, otherwise i agree with your criticism, but when talking about the content of the religion's holy book or it's history, i advise you maintain humility in subjects you haven't ventured to learn about from scholarly sources, reality is usually far more complex than our preconceptions and the given ideas that are common in media and society at large. Just in the same way that many people commit this sin against Hinduism i would hate to see you committing it against Islam, despite me not being fond of Islam i am fond of objectivity and truth, and i hope we all are.
Thanks foe the feedback. How should I learn about the real reason for the lack of diversity? I know there are currently people living Islamic countries who do not reveal their non Islamic beliefs for fear of the consequences. Is that a new phenomenon?
Maybe I can interview some scholars on this subject
@@TheologyUnleashed I hope i wasn't too harsh in my comment, because to be fair even Muslims don't receive an accurate view of their history, so when i became an ex-muslims i was actually much more harsh on the history of Islamic rule than i am now after having learned more.
Anyway here are some scholars that you can look up: Hugh Kennedy, Maribel Fierro, Maria Rosa Menocal, Firas Alkhateeb, Justin Marozzi
@@lolroflmaoization no, you weren't harsh. I appreciate the feedback. I'll look them up.
What do you think this verse means?
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.
I'm not a Christian and avoid interpreting other people's religions. Have you got any thoughts you'd like to share on it?
@@TheologyUnleashed have you always been a hindu
One interpretation that i liked is..seizing the kingdom of God(Luke 14:17) through exercising your will and determination as jesus taught that we need to love God with our heart soul and strength..hope you find this helpful.
@@vinsosunny8863
Luke 16 16
if you look at the verse before it, the context is about the pharisees, and the way the kingdom has been advancing. What Jesus is saying is from the time of the prophets until John the baptist violent men have been establishing Gods kingdom by force, not so any longer. When muslims use the old testament to say Jesus taught expansion by the sword or persecution on the bases of religion this is the verse which refutes their argument.
Welcome back, bro 😊
If someone need a book to distinguish between good and evil maybe that’s a problem
I am sorry but even after mughal ivation of india hindus didn't do a single religious war. After end of gurukul it happend. I think it is after 1800. When education stop then some tiny portion of hindu become vilont, maybe one or 2. Thats all
That could be. I do think some of the violence between Hindus and Muslims in India has involved religious extremism from both sides. But perhaps that wouldn't be called a religious war.
@@TheologyUnleashed yes. But if you but history that's totally different things. Yes when Hindus didn't get gurukul sikha they become . Without education that's all going to happen
@@mrgk1735 one things for sure, all the religious wars today and in recent history involve Muslims
@@TheologyUnleashed i disagree with this statement. It started in the beginning. And after mongol got converted that's when it's become widespread. In india Timur, gajni babar started thease. So i couldn't agree with this statement.
@@mrgk1735 I didn't follow your comment. Can you say more please?
I feel a bit apologetic for a comment i made last year on your series on karma because I knew at the time it was pretty undignified (I just thought I couldn't help it).
I felt worse when you didn't continue that series because my mind was running away with me, and I thought it was because I'd caused too much second-hand embarrassment.
I don't feel so much at the end of my tether as I did back then, and hopefully, I'm feeling more reflective. _But_ ... I'm still finding it hard to wrap my head around the issue of karma though - hopefully, for less self-pitying reasons.
I don't know if you've looked into research into the testominies of children who claim to be the reincarnation of specific people. I assume you have though.
Well, there seems to be a whole category of cases where the person who a child claims to have been in a previous life, was murdered, and they were born with birth marks, or worse, birth defects, which reflect the manner in which they were killed.
I know about the ideas of Rupert Sheldrake, and the research of Michael Levin, and that helps me to see how there could be a mechanistic explanation for such phenomena which is not currently understood, but I'm struggling to reconcile them with the idea of _moral_ causation. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Sorry, if this comment is a bit off topic, but something you said around 7.40 brought something to the surface (& vodka probably didn't help)
Not continuing the series had nothing to do with your comment. I just got too busy and had lots of other videos I was more passionate to get out. Feel free to repeat your questions here. I might make that last video eventually. I can't remember what the last topic was gonna be.
I'll address the rest of your comment later.
If God is real, then He is the Creator and has authority to judge correctly, as He is all-powerful, and knows all.
Whether or not God is real, human beings experience reality subjectively, and are limited in our understanding of reality.
If God is not real, morality is nothing more than a description of preferential behaviour.
If God is real, and you judge Him as evil (like a tyrant), not only is your judgment inherently flawed, but it is an act of rebellion against against the One that gives you life. This is an act of evil, rebellion against the God who is the foundation of morality.
If God is not real, and you judge Him as a tyrant, your judgement meaningless, as your opinion of what is good or bad is no more valid than the people who must have made up God.
No matter what, judging God is inherently evil or pointless.
That's way too much skepticism about our ability to discern moral principles
@@TheologyUnleashed by what authority do you judge another human’s morality to be correct or incorrect?
@@jasons5904 that's a very strange way of wording that question. I can look at things and know they're wrong. Obviously, there are gray areas and cases where I lack insight, but there are plenty of clear-cut cases of right and wrong. It's not about judging it's about seeing.
@@TheologyUnleashed are the clear cut cases you mentioned objectively right or wrong, or are they subjectively right or wrong?
@@jasons5904 it is objectivelymwrong to torture babies and it is objectively right to feed hungry kids.
LOOK AT DAVID WOOD'S CUP LOL
Jesus Christ is a Vaishnava, and any "Christian" who is not a fanatic will realize this once he has the vocabulary to express it.
Hare Krishna
It is quite easy to understand when we see all devotees of God's as "Devotees" so it wouldn't be quite rare to find such a thing, if someone has a wide enough perspective. But that's just what I think, please be free to add on to my information ❤
@@Artisticfish1 Yes. The truth is expansionist, not through force of arms, but through elevating consciousness by presenting an elevated vocabulary.
What do you mean by Jesus is a Vaishnava?
I'm not sure if you would consider me a "fanatic Christian", but I would be interested in an explanation or link to a video. I don't know much about Vaishnava, but I doubt the Bible is compatible.
The Torah, Prophets, and New Testament all say there is one God with a name spelled (YHWH) which is eventually changed in later copies to Adonai (LORD in most English translations) since Jew didn't want to use God's name in vain.
But the Bible also speaks about YHWH as if he is multiple people, Father in Heaven, Angel/Word of YHWH, and Spirit. Genesis 19:24 is a clear case of this.
So historically we would consider Jesus a Jew because of his mother's ethnicity/religion. And Christians also believe he is the word or YHWH incarnate as a man. Not sure if that in any way makes him Vaishnava, lol
There's a lot of interafith discussions and debates on this channel that would help you under Vaishnavism and how it compares to Christianity
Meanwhile islam is speaking truth, while your kind making fooled of people, And only ignorance who followed you.
That's the different.
So which allah is right- one who's saying Gospel is true and nobody can change God's Word or this one who's saying Gospel is corrupted? 😂
@@chashyk again your question have been answered in many forums, either you're denial or you're ignorant hostiles towards islam, so suck it up man
Are you saying it's true despite being immoral, or do you reject Daniel's and Jake's understanding of Islam and hold a view compatible with God being all loving.
W ❤
Who cares