Atheism and Christianity: A Conversation | John Lennox & Michael Tooley
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- čas přidán 21. 11. 2013
- Oxford scholar, John Lennox, and CU professor, Michael Tooley, discuss belief in God, reason and faith, and more. | Colorado University Boulder, 2013 | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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Dr. Lennox got me reading the Bible intensely. I mean very intensely. I was an atheist many years ago. My eyes are now extremely open. Thank you John. Keep up the good work!!
God Bless you for telling the Truth.
Praise be to God...!!! Extremely happy for you.. and that is one of the absolutely beautiful things about God.. I’m a total stranger to you.. I don’t know you and you don’t know me from the man who just flew over from another country that he ahas never left his entire life and came to your home town market for the first time... Jesus Christ is the only way and if you devote yourself to him you will as have a sense of true peace in your life..
Uuupuu
@@melodyciamarra I don’t understand your reply. I do say that I hope you have researched, then asked that mysterious “God” that here are people discussing to let you know in your heart the truth. That you could not deny Him even if you try. For I know this Amazing God. Has my life been without difficulties since I told Him my life was His? I told Him I would sell all I own and move around the world to serve Him if that is what He wished. I meant it. Did I then stop living in my life as I wished? No. Did that stop my belief that He alone is the God of this universe? No. But if I am willing to turn to Him daily He will always be there. He alone is worthy of my praise. He alone can truly comfort me, answer all my prayers according to His Will, not mine. I am not worthy to even speak His name. But I ask the blessing of speaking His name. Of serving Him no matter the cost to me. I pray for every soul alive this day and to be born before His glorious return to truly know Him. I am no theologian. I just know a God that has blessed me. I know a loving God. I hear “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess” and I have to hope that that includes everyone. But I know my God and trust Him. Let us all serve Him thus all of His Creation in whatever way He desires and empowers us to serve. God you ll!
9:22
Who else agrees that John Lennox is so adorable?!?!? Like i just want to hug him :p. Thank God for him.
How can you thank God, if there's not such thing as God?
@@acortes7771 there is a God though. His name is Jesus the Christ
He seems like a sweet man that wishes everyone well...except gays, women and people that don't conform to the ideals of the Bible, but if you're not one of those groups, he would be delightful company.
@@acortes7771 You are proof of IT.
You are proof of IT
John Lennox is always so delightfully charming.
Very well spoken.
But delusional. I can't stand the man.
@@petermetcalfe5280 You should get some help for your psychological projection.
James Dare true lol
Lennox is incredibly smart and passionate. I did not appreciate the moderator in this debate for not being more flexible.
I have been watching a lot of videos with debates featuring John Lennox lately. Out of all the speakers on Christianity, he is the only one that has caused me to deeper thinking regarding this topic, and I am an Atheist. This was a very good video from both perspectives....thank you for sharing
bltorioles Are you still an atheist?
Love John, up there with JBP in my book
bltorioles
And 2 years later, your comments really put a smile on my face.
bltorioles if you like this, check out Peter Rollins
@nick b
He's a fraud.
John Lennox is always the consummate gentleman.I am at an age of being well past idol worshipping anyone but Dr.Lennox surely has my admiration and respect for defending his Christian faith in this world of scoffers and cynics,especially from academia.
Prof Lennox feels like a true Grand Pa, a sort of Santa Claus you are longing to give a hug. God bless his heart.
I am with John on this one.
Marcus O'Ruiari a great man
Love listening to the Debates with John Lennox & have been since i got to know Jesus! God Bless him & everyone & praying that unbelievers will keep searching for the Truth in Jesus!💖☺️🙏
You see right, John Lennox right, he mopped the floor with me right, so maybe I should re-think reality right.
I know right!
@@andys3035 right!?
@@lukesalazar9283 That's a question, right?
Hehehe! My brother Molay...can't helped but smile. It's amazing to me. For I am not alone. Luv ya brother!
Maybe rethink his version of reality... The reality is that God exists and science has debunked evolution.
I'm not trying to bash Tooley's message. But his use of saying "right" after every sentence is beyond annoying.
Right...
It's the uh's that get me....
I imagine it's a bit like a stutter or maybe a nervous tic.
26.55 start... listen to John Lennox response. I think he brilliantly and beautifully speaks the sound of Truth
Jesus loves you
+JoM80 How can you prove God is not just a figment of your imagination?
+atam mardes We can't. So if he is then we're going to look pretty stupid, but at the same time nobody will exist to look stupid. However, if God exists, then the atheists are the ones who are in trouble
If God exists, theists (not atheists) are the ones who are in trouble. Because theists are insulting God by assuming God is so unjust and unfair that punishes atheists when God knows he has not provided any evidence for his existence. God loves atheists because atheists have the courage to not believe in him based on bad evidences and contrived miracle stories like virgin birth, resurrection, and walking on water.
atam mardes God loves everyone equally of course. Let's have a story. Let's say you have a son. Now, your son has just gone through his teenage years and is moving out for the first time. You have only ever shown him support, praise and appreciation. He comes of age and immediately wants to move out because he hates you. Do you force him to stay out of your love for him?
Religion business has been fooling you with these types of bad examples and analogies. There is no evidence for any God.
Wow! What a beautiful testimony from lennox.
John Lennox is brilliant!!!
A typical Irishman. Just like the Americans. Believe in the fairy at the bottom of the garden.
I love jesus.
I love the invisible pink dragon in my garage.
Why did Veritas Forum stop the video after Tooley. Would have been good to hear John Lennox's closing words....right?
Can we Give this Man a Nobel Peace Prize Already?
Finally!!!!
Excellent debate. Both men were well-spoken and respectful of one another.
I agree.
Came to listen to debate. Instead, my mental state is tortured with the continuous uttering of the word “right”.
Lol same
ALSO, how many times did he also say "uh"
I am deeply saddened to see how many people misinterpret the Scripture. It is easy to knock down a straw man, but the Bible stands.
The scripture isn't relevant, you don't get to start with the assumption that the bible is divinely inspired and that your god exists, you need to demonstrate those things.
And on the first day there was light. Where did it come from?
At 39 min Mr. Tooley says God should be able to limit our "horrendous" evil. Let's say God limits our evil to punching someone in the face. This would then be the most horrendous evil we know and we would be having this same conversation saying why does God allow such evil things like punching someone in the face. If you take away the most evil thing then the next most evil becomes the most horrendous thing and then where do you stop.
Yeah that argument didn't work so well on my math teacher in high school. "Why do we have to come to class the last day of school since we don't really do anything" - because then we'd have the same issue of "not doing anything" on the day before that. We end up in an infinite regression until the amount becomes infinitely small or non-existent. Good "eye" there.
This reminds me my brother. You are moses and the other individual is the king of Egypt. Your words is your world, my brothers and sisters. When we confess with our mouths. It shall come to pass.
A lot of Tooley's atheism seems to be based on "God doesn't do what I want Him to do, so He must not exist."
I still don't see how that would prevent us from assessing which world would be more evil. So in that case we could say that one world isn't as evil as the other and that it is more likely that the evil is justified i the world where punching is the most evil.
The logical conclusion of this argument is that one could literally live in a hell world and would be unable to say such a world is less likely to have justifiable evil than the world that we happen to actually live in. That seems too absurd for me.
If you think God should limit our ability to do evil then you’re right, we’d be hearing the same complaint about the evil done within those parameters.
But what’s worse, now you have to decide what levels of evil you’ll accept, and thus the amount of suffering you think we should accept. How much suffering is okay? Which manifestations of suffering are we cool about and which are problematic? Whose suffering can be tolerated and whose can’t?
It’s such a terrible argument that I’d expect it from a new atheist type, not a distinguished philosopher.
its great to see two academics discuss a very deep topic with a respectful and civil attitude .
i find it intriguing mr Tooley consistantly uses the word "right" after most comments…..
mr Lennox gives a great explanation to free will and our free choice
both bring thought provoking questions to the table
great discussion
I like both debaters very much, but the mediator gave less time to Dr. Lennox. Professor Tooley asked good questions, but the mediator didn't let Dr. Lennox to answer them most of the time :/
Long Live The Professor.!
Both are very polite to one another which is refreshing. However i notice that the non believer has a hard time making sentences without using the word evil, if he was truly a dis believer rather than a rebel of God, he would have no issue not using terms like evil. The fact we all know evil and good to be just as real as gravity and time is evidence we all know God exist.
Here here well said bud.
***** I think your argument is valid with some theist not all. I do not think you get what I am saying, I am aware that evil is supposed to be a problem for God's existence but this is a miss understanding of what evil itself denotes.
The problem of evil is worst for an atheist certainly since there is no standard you can claim other than that of your own, which turns into might makes right, which is not morality but rather the strength of those who hold to certain preferences forcing their preferences through numbers and strength on those with different views.
In the Christian worldview the standard is Love. So we as Christians would say Love is built into the fabric of reality itself, and our actions are accountable to this standard. When we fail to love in an action we have done evil.
_"The fact we all know evil and good to be just as real as gravity and time is evidence we all know God exist."_
It's actually a fact that that isn't a fact. And even if it was true that everyone knew "good" and "evil" to be real things it still would not be evidence that "we all know God exist".
Houston Davis oughts only exist if there is a way things ought to be, and if there is a way things ought to be there is a plan to reality and plans have planners.
Everyone knows God exist, they suppress the truth. You know a higher power is responsible for the beauty we see, the life we have, the conscious we have the love we have. Your level of understanding of the creator may not be as well informed as others but you are not dumb enough to believe that everything came from nothing and then the universe without any rhyme or reason became aware of itself through material processes which gave rise to non material entities like consciousness, mathematics, universal laws of logic.
Joshua Hults I feel like I could just say there simply are no objective "oughts" or "shoulds" or "moral values & duties" and be done....
Matter has been shown to come into existence from empty space. Brains (made of purely matter) give rise to the epiphenomenon of consciousness which then is able discern mathematics and universal laws of logic (which are just descriptive of how our physical universe is).
And there is *objectively* no reason to think your God even exist. Lots of reasons to think it doesn't though.
I pray that all atheists are as cool-headed and amiable during discussion as Mr. Tooley. I also pray that my fellow Christians would humble themselves as Jesus gives as an example to also be as cool-headed and amiable in discussion as Mr. Lennox. Despite what we all believe, we all live here on Earth together and must love one another and be friendly towards one another always.
Tooley in his opening statement tells of being raised in a Christian home. He knows how to act.
So, the argument from evil is that if one can’t THINK of a reason for suffering, then there must not be one? And how can there be evil if atheism is true?
No the argument from evil is that naturalism and evolutionary biology are much much better explanations for why suffering occurs than a benevolent all powerful god. Suffering is what you get if you live in an indifferent universe where life is a struggle to overcome challenges from the environment and other animals.
Right...right...right...right...
right.....lol
It's really very simple. The One true God, Creator of all things, including Quantum Physics, Astrophysics, all manner of math, fractals and the like, prove Him, and that he is a most logical God. And He desires us to say, My God, you have made all this?? Would you tell me how? To which He replies; "Come, let us reason together!" Is this not also the Father Creator saying to His creation, (His children), I will answer all your questions, including those about death, and suffering...there exists a reason for these things. To God be the glory, it is only our perceptions of His Person that limits our understanding. Love how John Lennox talks, and the unbeliever was respectful, engaging, and fairly intelligent too. God bless anyone's day who reads this haha🙏❤*clearly He has made me to be full of joy😁
God Bless you too & YES, GOD is good, all the time! 😊🙌☺️🙏💖
If anything, science makes God less likely to exist. Not because we can disprove an all-powerful god through science, but because we can disprove the stories in the Bible, and we learn how the religion itself can be exploited by governments or organisations to further their agenda in this life, the only one we have any evidence for. The Bible has a lot of horrible stories in it, and the morals in it is outdated and way below our current standards, so even there we can see that there is no merciful, good God. Only one that allows for terrible crimes and suffering for no reason. Perhaps we should be glad he's most likely fantasy?
@@tankbuggeru Science is methods for dealing with physical creation without useless opinions and conclusions.
Your opinions and conclusions define God down. If you were to list some of the lifestyles you support, we would know why you have to be anti-God.
Science does not disprove God, people like you do.
tankbuggeru huh? Not even close. You have digital code in your DNA...that’s called information, and serves a purpose of function. It’s literally just like digital code. And the universe is rational..mathematical..based on our uniform & repeated experiences..the only thing capable of offering mathematical laws & providing textual information...is an immaterial mind. It’s pretty straightforward there- science and experience. You’re regurgitating ops arguments...but remember...just as you say “science can prove what the Bible says didn’t happen.”, you neglect that science got egg on their face after centuries of claiming the universe was stagnant and “all there ever was.” The Big Bang Theory proved a beginning to the universe- one of the two who discovered the background radiation claimed it’s exactly what he would’ve expected to find based on the Bible as a whole. This is just science, experience, and fact...I don’t know why that’s so hard to receive. The Bible claims baptism is how you receive, and Christ is the light...and the only place in our world where we see light in a vacuum is on water (Einstein special relativity)...you’re just wrong. Read the Bible...stop listening to people who tell you about it. Science consistently confirms the Bible....it’s amazing. After being proven wrong about the stagnant universe after centuries of Aristotleism(once thought you be a science, proved to be a religious zealot following since it was wrong)...atheistic scientists have somehow taken the beginning of the universe...something clearly claimed by the Bible and science made its bed in the other trench...and pretended like it’s proven them correctly.
They have no answers...they have “maybes”
God is an answer...you can accept it or reject...but it doesn’t change the final value
And by the way...it’s not like “oh there’s information so yay!! God.” It’s like “dang...a Nobel prize winning, WW2 code-cracking scientist named Crick found literal digital code in our DNA which is the instructions for life...and the Bible literally says ‘in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God’....like thousands of years before we learned plumbing systems”. It’s an affirmative case for...and all people can give me In response is “well maybe it’s this... science will find out after we’re dead”...wrong. You’re going to find out after you die. One way or the other
Right? Right? Right? Right? This guy is driving me nuts.
A compulsory word in his speech.
Great job Dr. Lennox!
I would rather live my life as if there is a God, than to live my life believing there is no God, only to find out there is one.
They should've had a word counter for every time dude said "right" after a statement.
Right?
Friendliest debate ever.
I think John Lennox is really nice about so is the professor. I mean No one can beat God sure their are some were the professor would win but ultimately God always wins.
In fiction, yes. In reality, he either chooses to hide or he doesn't exist.
You can't beat something that doesn't exist.
Bro God can beat anything, including fools who don't believe in His ostensible existence
Bro God can beat anybody, including fools who doubt His ostensible existence
@@solomonx2061 The iinvisible pink dragon in my garage can beat on god. Really go back to kindergarten.
John Lennox is a true man of God and Scientist. Lennox basically saying without God, universe is a dark place. Therefore *****Atheism is a Dark Road and . “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”
**** How Can I end this misery and get saved?***
*** "Repent and accept the Gospel of Christ". You will have eternal life.**
**Please Say this Simple prayer for salvation...."God, I recognize that I have not lived my life for You up until now. I have been living for myself and that is wrong. I need You in my life; I want You in my life. I acknowledge the completed work of Your Son Jesus Christ in giving His life for me on the cross at Calvary, and I long to receive the forgiveness you have made freely available to me through this sacrifice. Come into my life now, Lord. Take up residence in my heart and be my king, my Lord, and my Savior. From this day forward, I will no longer be controlled by sin, or the desire to please myself, but I will follow You all the days of my life. Those days are in Your hands. I ask this in Jesus' precious and holy name. Amen.**
God Bless.
***** fear of God is beginning of wisdom. Take the Jesus Challenge and join or rejoin the Christian army.
***** Because you are infested with the virus ( because Adam and Eve) and your thinking has been altered. God is helping you to see the reality.
***** Okay, lets go to science and hit Darwinism. And I will show you the handy work of God. Read this carefully a few times because it is intense. It is written simply r, and easy to understand.
***** *NEWEST BOMBSHELL* ...*NEW PROOF* - *WHY DARWINIAN MACRO EVOLUTION NEVER HAPPENED?* *EVOLUTION DEBUNKED!*
*PROOF of a New Universe and a New Dimension revealed*
Failure to Launch! Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTA) of Living Beings Killed the Evolutionary Theory!
*This Doctrine tackles the fantastically complex behavioral traits and attributes of all living beings. How in the world these unorthodox behavioral traits and attributes ended up in the super complex physiological beings? Is this a sign for intelligent design (ID) or just a lucky coincidence (LC) *. *Can we know?*
Question: *Suppose I supplied you with sugar, yeast, flour, vanilla extract, eggs, milk , salt and asked you to make a chocolate cake out of these supplies. Can you do it? Can it be done. According to the Darwinian Evolution Theory , the answer is a YES. Anything is possible if you give her enough time to generate the results !
_This is a super condensed version of the doctrine._
New Words:
(UBTA)= Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes of living Species.
X Dimensional = Multi Dimensional or belonging to more than one dimension.
X Dimension = Another Dimension
*HERMAN HALICI* - *Solid Universe Doctrine:* Please read it more than once.
1) Universe can't change nor alter her laws, order, and logic in order to create a non living, nor living system. Darwinian natural selection which is counted as part of our universe, breaks bunch of universal laws, order and logic in order to generate UBTAs of the living species. Until now we have never observed any particle or system of our universe ( atoms, protons, nebula, star systems, planetary systems or anything) bending, breaking, nor defying our Universal laws, order and logic. We only observe this phenomenon here on Earth. Our universe is solid as gold.
(You will always get a Kosher meal from a Kosher Deli)
2) Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTAs) of animals, plants, bacteria, viruses, are not compatible with Universal laws, order and logic. ( These attributes include hiding, hunting, mothering, trapping, camouflaging, cheating, lying, sneaking, envying, killing, bullying, destroying, playing possum, manipulating , hating , dis-courting, leeching , and more... 100+)
For example: We have never observed a star hiding and hunting another star(s) or planet(s). We have never observed any star bullying a planet in order to lure her into his system. These are intellectual , non physical, emotional and spiritual traits and qualities. Although administered by the living beings biologically, they defy the universal laws, order and logic. Since UBTAs are unstable and irrational concepts to exist in our universe, even the idea of them becomes illogical and impossible to comprehend. For example: Can a blind man dream about a blue rose? Of course NOT because this concept does not even exist in the blind man's world. Can you get *Color Red* by mixing the other colors together? Of course Not. Red is a primary color. Can't be generated from other colors. Our universe has her limitations and capabilities. She is able to generate new systems, stars, and planets regularly. But she can't generate anything that is conceptual or non material.
Therefore *What Universe does not have, it can't select* and *Something can't be selected by nature, if that particular item doesn't exist in our universe*. Even a slight violation of her laws means a chain reaction that would totally destroy all our universe. She would literally collapse or blow up. Since our universe is still standing, that means nothing has violated her laws, order and logic .
3) Humans on the other hand pose even deeper problems for Darwinian macro evolution. Humans posses two kind of attributes: Positive and Negative. As positive they display.... love, self sacrifice, efficiency, faith, joyfulness, humbleness, devotion, gratefulness, loyalty, generosity...and much more . As negative they display...arrogance, carelessness, lying, cheating, being manipulative, jealousy, thoughtlessness, moodiness, fearfulness, cowardliness, being vengeful, being stubborn... and much more.
These are unstable and unsustainable attributes . They never existed and don't exist in our Universe. *Nothing outside our blue planet, I mean nothing, displays these traits and attributes*. These are intellectual , non physical, emotional and spiritual, behavioral concepts, traits and qualities. They don't have any physical shape nor substance. They are generated by human brain with thought process. But where did these unorthodox behaviors and attributes come from? If the concept of it does not exist and breaks all the laws of the universe , how did they ended up inside the living beings. Is it possible to generate something, from non existing concepts and material? Where did they come from?
4) These UBTAs could not have originated from our three dimensional Universe, because they bend and break all her known laws. These fantastically radical UBTAs are the evidence of another Dimension and Universe with different set of laws, order and logic. That is the reason we never observed any of the UBTAs outside of our planet.
5) Whoever or whatever super force introduced these UBTAs, is able to travel within the different Dimension and Universe, and able to create , design species with awesome and super complex UBTAs while fine tuning the whole Earth and Star Systems to house them . ( Above the law)
*CONCLUSION*
Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTA) of all living species are deadly blow to Darwinian Evolution. More we research, more we discover that Darwinian Evolution could not have happened by natural selection and blind chance. Biggest obstacle is, they can't be generated by nature. In order to generate these UBTAs the Universe has to break,defy, and alter her laws. This could not be done by our universe. Universe can't pass her limitations.
YES, changes and developments has happened to the living beings, but evidence shows that they were inserted and designed by another force, a lot bigger force that came from outside of our Universe and Dimension. UBTAs are definitely, not the product of blind and powerless natural selection.
Had life started by some chemical accident, then our new lifeforms would have been totally *ROBOTIC and LAW & ORDER ORIENTED BEINGS OR SYSTEMS in nature*. But to our surprise , just the opposite of this has happened. At the end of the story, we end up with " Beings with fantastic traits and attributes, that totally defy the *LAW, ORDER, AND UNIVERSAL LOGIC*. Since Universe does not have tools and material to generate these UBTAs, then where did these fantastic , unorthodox traits come from? Are we then a product of an intelligent designer or a super force? Data shows that the answer is a big *"YES"*. This proves that there are other dimension(s) and universe(s) are out there. I believe we are the first X Dimensional beings ever. Our earth is a very special place. She is a gateway or portal to X Dimension and Universe . As one Chinese proverb states" *May you live in interesting times*" .
Your comments or questions welcomed. Cheers
***** This doctrine crushes evolution into pieces.
A reminder for Dr Tooley WW II. Strangers sacrificed their lives so that others would live in freedom from tyranny. The sacrifice of a parent for their children. Examples go on an on.
*BIG FAN OF TOOLEY*
I don't know why people are calling this a debate: it's more of a discussion/conversation, as the title indicates. If you want to see Tooley at his very best, watch his debate with William Lane Craig, and go read his scholarly articles on the existence of God.
I agree with David Battle. I would have liked to hear Dr. Lennox's concluding points. Also, among the several debates I have watched with Dr. Lennox this is the only one where his opponent made the attempt to do his homework in actually looking at the Bible. Although his interpretations were wrong as John correctly pointed out, Michael goes much further than Dawkins or Hitchens. This makes for a very intelligent argument for both worldviews.
I would encourage anyone who is interested in answers regarding these two world views to watch this discussion before those Dr. Lennox had with Dawkins and Hitchens as these atheists do not do the one thing a true debater must do (as John has done) that of studying the essential texts of your opponent. Hence, in my opinion, Dr. Lennox had both of them for lunch.
Can't help but love each and everyone of you. Me and you have a very special role. Deep questions indeed of me and you processed. My brothers and sisters loved God all your mind, heart, and soul and love thy neighbors as thyself. These 2 commandments carries all COMMANDMENTS. Meaning, you can leave your door unlocked at night. To those who have an ear let them hear. If I tell you. I look at you as kings and priests. Who is worth loving, respecting, honoring and giving my life for you kind of love. Precious you are indeed. I judge not yet ye be judge but I do judge the tree by it's fruits. Stay beautiful my brothers and sisters. For you are worth more than anything you see. It's made just for you and I. Stay beautiful my brothers and sisters
Christian "love" takes many forms, such as the Spanish inquisition and Northern Ireland.
@@roqsteady5290 indeed LANGUAGE given and LANGUAGE understood. Bring more like you beloved to the kingdom of God and its righteousness. Nothing is wasted but will increase beyond measured. Luv ya
Why didn't this include Professor Lennox's closing statement? Anyone got a copy of it? I find him to be GENUINE and he is one of a short list a people that I would like to spend a day or two with just discussing these important questions of life. In my opinion, something that isn't discussed enough is the fact that God can be and has been experienced by believers. Something that transcends simple matter and materialism. This is something completely lacking in evolutionary theory as well as atheistic belief in life. If there were no Creator God....what's the point in all of this?
Please explain the Origin of Life in atheism
Lennox is so inspiring. I think Tooley is wrong about there being no successful Ontological Argument. What about Alvin Plantinga's?
Tooley and others have responded to Plantinga's ontological argument. Even Plantinga, if I recall correctly, would not say his argument is sound. I doubt he would say it is unsound, but actually knowing the premises are true is problematic. Tooley and others question Plantinga's premises. For example some question the coherence of maximal greatness, some attack the premise that God is possible, and others attack the modal conditional premise.
one thing i dislike about the atheist counterpoint is that he is arguing the unfairness of a christian deity rather than the existence of the deity.
I sort of agree, but I think to get into deep discussion about whether or not something as ominous as a deity exists, you have to define the deity first. That will almost always ascribe it to a particular religion.
But I see what you mean, yes.
Love Lennox such a great talker, Tooley is driving me crazy with his use of the word "right" "right" Evey second word is "right" over 575 times in 1 hour.. "right" What a Professor he needs a bigger more diverse vocabulary for sure "right"
Is Michael Tooley really Kermit the Frog?
1:05:26 is where it gets interesting for me. I second that!
As long as all the atheists and Christians will be as civilized, sensible, rational and decent as these two individuals nothing is to be feared and, on the contrary, an intellectual debate is to be encouraged. However, when any ideology is taken to fanaticism the results will be gravest...
Yes, the use of the word "right" totally obscured his points and message. I have to conclude that he must have been quite nervous and had likely spent little time behind a camera and microphone, otherwise his assertions could have been pretty decent.
I was a little put out that the closing remarks of John Lennox were not included at the end. I also would have enjoyed hearing the response of Lennox to the question of meaning, especially to the atheist.
I think adding 'right' is a Toronto(?) thing, not nervousness. But I agree, it's distracting.
Amazing
That is so awesome! Someone already wrote this but I heard it myself, the moderator did totally fart!! So funny!
in faiths and believes
So this is how athiest and christians converse with each other. Add 2 more of each and a buffet table on the side. Feed the audience too then we have accomplished the greatest unity ever made.
It was a great debate until John Lennox's final remarks were cut from the recording.
Thank god for small mercies
I was hoping Mr. Tooley was going to clear his throat! 🤣
My ears!!!!! Great and informative talk in spite of that irritant!
Right right right right! !
high clear volume ☺
"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
―Paarthurnax, TES V Skyrim
To be born good. But how is this relevant?
“Better” is not applicable because neither of these two ideas are true.
John Lennox is a beautiful soul....n great hubby
One of the very few who speaks from his heart..a greay guy
Just love how u favored the atheism and gave him Wayyyy more speaking time. Deusch.
This channel is a Christian echo chamber, so no it doesn't favour atheism.
"Many physicists are beginning to regard information as a quantity,entity that is not reducible to mass and energy.it is not material,it carries a material.it is immaterial and if it is immaterial,that means it raises a possibility of an immaterial world.materialism as a philosophy if not atheism begins to crumble."
This is the confusion is most atheists,,by then the debate should have ended❤
Why has Veritas not included John Lennox's closing statement?
My respects to Dr. Tooley but he could have prepared better for a debate with John Lennox of all people. Not a worthy adversary but a good chat I suppose. But honestly, if these philosophers are interested in the truth, why can't they debate people who are worthy of it. I just got back from Mexico City and saw that Richard Dawkins is going to debate Deepak Chopra in the heart of Mexico City. Chopra?! Are you freaken kidding me?! He wusses out on debating William Lane Craig and decides to debate Chopra?! Freaken Chopra?!? Anyways, I'm hoping he would man up and reconsider his debate with William Lane Craig.... But.... One can only hope.... (I'm ranting at this point... I'll stop)
True, I think he let Lennox get away with all kinds of things. It would be cool seeing him debate Matt Dillahunty. I doubt very much Dawkins would be afraid to debate Craig, since everything he's got is Kalam, that he shoves a lot of other things into to prove the christian god. Too bad Craig won't debate Matt, but I guess he's smart enough not to.
this was a vital points i stressed on God
Did Lennox's closing argument get cut off?
At 1:25:35 did anyone else here the word Yahweh really loud!!!!!
How bad is the moderator? wanted to hear why was it necessary for Jesus to be sacrificed.
The host totally farted at 24:09 lol... his microphone picked it up
BRO, HE TOTALLY DID!! Hilarious
Lol, that’s pretty funny but the guy in green shifted as it happened, could have been his mic picking up some shuffling or something.
Very disappointed with this video closing arguments of Dr. J .Lenox was not revealed in this video
If we compare with the demons, we can go soooo low in our lives, BUT WE STILL HAVE A CHANCE TO RETURN TO GOD IF WE WANT.
What happened to Lennox's closing remarks?
Did you have any luck finding it? I would like to see/hear it.
I died and had the wonderful privilege of going to heaven an jesus share the future with me wow
What drugs did you take?
We assume that the battle between the heavenly legions occurred at some point in the past. Could it be that the rebellion is being played out in this existence?
Absolutely, yes heavenly legions for sure!
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
There's no proof the DNA molecule came about by a natural unguided process, that code has no coder, that assertion can be dismissed as well, there's no proof.....
Servent of Christ So you agree that the character god can be as easily dismissed....
Richard Platt Lol you are real smart aren’t you? They are saying that DNA IS proof of God. LOL
Do you have proof that what you are asserting is true?
@@michaelwill7811 I am not the one making the initial assertion in the video.
Atheists need a guy well versed in the Bible to debate. The Bible is the heart of the Christianity
You can't be an expert in all the many thousands of fantasies that people have dreamt up. And it is really irrelevant, given there are no replicable observations that support any of them and none of them make any useful predictions.
Where is John Lennox's concluding remarks?
Indeed! The discussion was structured to give Mr Tooley the last word on practically every point! Obviously Mr Lennox had responses to Mr Tooley's allegations but he often wasn't allowed to voice them. The discussion would have been more enlightening for all with more give and take--and obviously if Mr Lennox had been allowed to make a closing statement as well.
77Catguy I too was shocked that John Lennox was not allowed to give a closing statement. The moderator even said, "We are going to invite our participants to make closing statements. I don't know who would like to go first?" John Lennox graciously allowed Mr. Tooley to go first with his closing statement, then was not allowed to give his closing statement! I have never seen any debate end is such an unbelievably biased way.
his voice
Enjoyed the debate, too bad John Lennox had no closing statement or it was excluded. Also there where many questions on the atheistic side which he did not get the chance to respond too.
Is one person, devoid of god, happier than the other? And does a belief in god insure, or even make more probable a happy life?
That is a great question.
***** What's your opinion.
hmmm there are christians who are depressed and there are non christians who are not depressed. Now this may sound harsh, but I was talking about this with someone the other day and they suggested that our feelings are very subjective, lets put our feelings aside for a second and lets look at what the truth is. Now if you are a naturalistic atheist, I am sorry If I come across rude or condescending, Now if there is no God then life is ultimately purposeless and every action we are to make has no real meaning or significance behind it, and human life has no real value.
Now in the christian worldview, we believe there is a god that loves us immensely, each and every single person has the image of God on them and they have immense value, we were ruined by sin yet God bought us back with his one and only son.
so if you're a depressed christian, thats how you feel but the truth is is that you have immeasurable value and each and every person has the image of God on them.
if you are a happy naturalistic atheist, thats how you feel but the truth is, is that all life has absolutely no real significance what so ever.
Im not saying that atheists cant be happy, but I am saying that though this is how we feel, but what is the truth behind the worldview. Im obviously a christian and I believe it to be the truth, and there are times where I feel really really down, its okay to cry because this is a painful world we live in, but though I may feel depressed, what is actually the truth?
Murri16 Excellent and thoughtful comment!
Murri16 Remember depression can be attributable to different things, such as loss, or pain at the suffering in this world and also lack of the required chemicals in the brain to make serotonin etc. so yes people of any persuasion can experience depression, just as anyone can develop physical illness and disease. Humanity chooses its own truth. We are free to look for the purpose of our lives and often in our darkest hours we find it. As a Christian you can compare Christianity to other prominent faiths in the world and the atheist view. No one is perfect and carrying out "ritualistic duties" won't cut it. Faith is a matter of the heart. As a Christian you can compare Christianity to other prominent faiths in the world, The truth is not comfortable, but it never changes.
To those that believe in a risen Jesus Christ I would like to thank you for your words of encouragement. For those that do not believe in the risen Jesus Christ I would like to ask a question. This is a serious question and I ask this question nicely. Here's the premise, what I see in these sort of so-called debates and talks. It seems to me that it is always atheism against Christianity. Why is this? Now if you're a deep thinker you will understand this question but if you're reading very fast perhaps you don't so I will explain it in further detail. I never see atheism and Islam. I never see atheism and Catholicism. I never see atheism and Hinduism. I am very curious why this is and I am very curious if anyone else even realizes this. Many atheist and schools of higher learning and people who want to believe that they are morally and intellectually superior than other people, if they were completely honest, in this debate and/or talk, wouldn't there premise be, atheism versus deity or atheism versus religion or atheism versus God. But all of these people whether it's Richard Dawkins are this guy here they always run for Christians. They are all trying to pick up our Jesus Christ but none of them are picking apart due to. None of them are picking Mohammed. I want to know why I want to understand why it nonbelievers automatically want to go for the Christian. They don't go for Judaism. They leave the other two major religions alone, they don't pull any of the minor religions and. And they just want to go for Christianity and try to destroy that and pick that apart. As they stand in buildings that were built in schools that were started by Christians. Even this guy here, he will mention Buddhism, but he is not attacking Buddhism. He's attacking Christianity thing.
I know your comment is old but I read the whole thing and honestly, that is something I have been trying and trying to explain to people for a long time. It might have to do with the fact that Christians are typically really peaceful and are therefore really vulnerable to criticism. It might also have to do with the fact that Christianity is the most prominent religion in America, but idk. Of all the evil religions out there, atheists really hate Christians for some unexplainable reason.
It is simply because of the prevalance of Christianity in the western world, and in case it escaped you, Catholics are Christians, that kind of sectarianism is such a typical example of why religions are so damaging. Personally I don't care what your particular god belief is, whether Islam, Hinduism or the great juju up the mountain; they are all equally unsupported by any verifiable evidence, although it is hard to match the absurdity of Christian doctrine.
Why wasn't Lennox's closing statement permitted on this video?
It was probably too embarrassing.
He more likely turned it into a sermon.
So, beyond the debate topics, there was one thing that was very noticeable, and, to tell you the truth, quite irritating. Did you notice, right, Michael right Tooley, right, say "right" at the end of all pauses, right, in thought, right?. Seriously. He probably says "right" about a thousand times. Also, Lennox wins the debate. But that's kinda, right, beside my point, right?
You silly man you. If that irritates you, what else! That will irritate you my brother who I love truly. Luv you brother and sisters. Love you philvoc
right
Right right right right right left
A further objection which is sometimes made to the Christian Faith lies in its claim to uniqueness-that it is in Christ alone that God has revealed his personality and character… Such criticism usually comes from those who know very little about either Christianity or other religions…
If, as the Christian believes, God has actually entered the human scene then there is inescapable uniqueness about Christianity . If this is “ the real thing” then in a sense there can be no compromise with anything less. This does not mean lack of sympathy with other religions, but it does mean that all men shall know the fullest possible truth …
( p. 83, Phillips)
For when possessions, pleasures and the thought of physical security fill a man’s horizon, he ceases to ask himself such basic questions as, “ What am I?” or “ What am I here for?” He may gain the whole world but will lose his own soul….
It is those who are in touch with the eternal order who make the most heroic and sustained efforts to improve the conditions for their fellows. It is those who know God to be eternal who most satisfactorily prove that God is their contemporary.
(p.132,137, Phillips)
foundation of the Christian faith
August 20, 2011 at 11:38 am
The Christian religion asserts that nearly two thousand years ago God, whose vast and complex wisdom …. Visited this small planet of ours in Person. Naturally the only way in which he could do this was by becoming a human being. And this is precisely what Christians believe that he did. This is the heart and center of the Christian Faith , this is the Gospel or Good news which those who had witnessed this extraordinary event went out to tell the then known world. That God so inserted himself into the stream of human history ….To have had God, reduced to the stature of a human being, but indubitably God playing a part in the earthly scene, is a staggering thought. But this where Christianity starts, this is the rock on which it is founded, and this is the point where men are compelled by the nature of the event to make up their minds as to whether it is true or false.
(p.52) Phillips
J.B. Phillips
August 20, 2011 at 11:23 am
I believe that modern man can never possess a faith which can both command his intelligent loyalty and influence every part of his thinking and feeling until he discovers the unique authority of Jesus Christ…There is sound historical evidence as well as modern information to be brought to the attention of those who are largely ignorant of the true content of the Christian faith. This is no time for reticence, and all those who have found a satisfying religious faith in Christ are nowadays called not only to serve the purposes of the Kingdom, but to make the King known.
God Our Contemporary, J. B. Phillips
First you have to demonstrate that god exists, then that god really does interact with humans, because as it stands we have only the evidence of Christians, who already beleived in the first place.
Take a shot of communion wine every time Tooley says ‘right’
More time to discuss was needed... :'(
Pull one hair out of your head every time Michael Tooley says, "ahh" or "uhh" ,, just in his first opening statement. You will be more bald than he is.
Both debaters were gentlemen, I'm more convinced of the arguements of Prof. Lennox though (I am christian, and maybe the psychology biases my mind, but I don't really think so, I think I am REALLY more convinced of Prof. Lennox).
And somebody should have told the film maker, to clean the lense of the camera :D
Sure, the indoctrination you get from your parents and surrounding culture lead to massive confirmation bias, in the same way they do for the thousands of other religions mankind has invented which have no more or less evidence than christianity. In fact if christianity stands out at all it is for the absurdity of many of it's doctrines.
@@roqsteady5290 Well I'm aware of the the fact, that one could be biased at thinking... And I should add, that I am an Ex-Muslim from Iran, who didn't leave Islam, because of political reasons or such things, the conversion to Christianity could possibly lead to being jailed or even being killed. With this said, I think your objections don't apply ...
I should add to that: there are always biased people, among christians, muslims, atheists, jews, buddists, and it's important to keep that in mind.
You automatically think that I'm under the influence of a christian family and environment, whereas it's not true at all, so I think your mindset -with all respect- was biased in this case at least
@@user-cv1uo5vn5h I was just adopting probability theory; on average people believe the religions of their parents and/or to which they are culturally attached. So for what reason did you suddenly decide that Jesus rose from the dead and that the Quran was not dictated to Mohamed by the angel Gabriel in a cave and that he didn’t fly to heaven on a winged donkey? Seems to me that once you’ve bought one set of nonsense, flip flopping to another set that offers you more emotional support isn’t that surprising. I bet you would have argued just as strongly for allah before your “conversion” as you now argue for Jesus. And the fact you switch so quickly from absolute conviction in one to the other is hardly good evidence for either, quite the opposite in fact, it pretty much mandates that all these religions are just salves for your feelings… which one are you going to try on next? Hinduism? I have always thought Zen Buddhism sounds interesting, maybe you should give that a try!
John Lennox misquoted Matt. 'You shall call His name Jesus for He will save His people from their sin.'
Matt, his people from sin that Matthew is describing is not the Jewish people only, who ever puts his trust in Jesus automatically are his people, so Lennox quote is right , your interpretation of Matthew is wrong.
Right
The host is kind of rude. Let lennox say 1 sentence ! It’s like 5 seconds
Prof. Tooley says around 13:06 that he realized he didn't have sufficient reason to believe what he believed. Well, that's probably true since he was attending church as a child. But just because he didn't have those reasons, that doesn't mean that reasons don't exist! He was simply not given the education he should have received in his church and from his parents.
Notice how he just said he read the book by Bertrand Russell and immediately didn't believe in God anymore. He says nothing about actually investigating the matter. (At least, not at this point in his presentation.) What he had was a child's superficial faith. There's nothing wrong with that if you're a child. But at some point you must think more deeply and figure out why you believe what you believe. He hadn't done that at this point in his young life, and so the first time he came across something that challenged it, he caved.
Again, that's understandable for a child/young teenager, especially if you have no guidance in your life in this area. But at some point, people do grow up and they do have the responsibility to seek out the reasons for why they believe what they believe.
Couldn't agree any further with u. And it's interesting how john lennox said he had read the same book which had the opposite effect on him.
I am at a point in my life where I keep challenging my Christian worldview and the more I read atheistic books the more my trust in Christ is strengthened.
dandorf10 Yes, indeed! That is why it's so heartbreaking to hear of these kids who grow up in church and after reading one book or hearing one college professor challenge their views, they just immediately succumb to it.
What on earth are we teaching people - again, especially kids - in church, that they are this unprepared for any challenge?
I was a christian until I was 25, and found out I spent so much effort in making excuses and imagining this complicated God creature with an elaborate plan, and put logic aside. I realized that there actually is very little reason to belive in God. I didn't need proof that he is false, just the lack of evidence that he is real.
Just because I haven't found reasons for beleiving in the invisible pink dragon in my garage doesn't mean there are no reasons. As a last resort, there is always faith.
My brothers and sisters, "LOVE". You know love is ment to share, with another individual. Yes, LOVE can be strong and solid by itself. But longing for a relationship. That's me and you. @LLOVE. I judge not yet ye be judge but I do judge the tree by it's fruits. Also, know God is JUST. When LOVE, see harm, vassitudes, and anything and everything is allowed. As you can see, our world is divided. A world without God, is what we see. God thoughts or his deep ways, are not my ways. Nor control of time. What does it mean, to know GOD? Is to know our true selves. @LLOVE
Fascinating except hardly structured fairly. Tooley was given the last word in almost all instances, and only he was allowed to make the final summation. I would have liked to have seen more give and take between the two, with at least alternation between who was to speak first and who was to speak last during different phases of the discussion.
Yeaahhh Prof. Lennox go get them Champ 😇💪
And then he fell apart. Like always.
@@schmetterling4477 did i miss something , what part ?
Jesus Christ may have been the humanistic god man ever created but the fact is he was created out wanting imagination by the people who wanted a god such as that.
Peaceful loving and compassionate to the human experience, that's why this god is still believed and worshiped to this day.
You have obviously never read the Bible and if so you had zero understanding
A thing to remember is we are called to give the whole of gospel to as many as we can !
We aren't called to do apologetics to all people.
when we are asked give a reason for the faith that is with in you .
arguing with atheists is not what come to my mind when I think about saving souls.
and in the end ,I don't do any saving .
it's the Grace of GOD through the faith in JESUS CHRIST that saves .
There's a Man called fahrid ,who is now with the LORD JESUS CHRIST .
He became a Christian !
One day he said to me .
Jesus gives such a force ,a force he couldn't explain !
When you give the gospel don't worry about apologetics let the Holy spirit lead you !
Sometimes you will find yourself giving the gospel to someone,but there's someone else in the background,who your not talking to .
It's maybe that person who's listening ?
and it happens a lot !
The Holy spirit is using you to reach the greatest number , always !
apologetics are when someone is searching for a reason to believe.
and they ask you why !
god bless and keep you always !
Amen and amen.
So if an innocent is killed by some natural phenomena, should we frown upon God? Are we born into this world because we possess the right to be born? So if a life is taken away from the face of the earth, do we possess the right to question the motive? If an owner of a store decides to buy or sell a stock, a servant, who doesn't have the ownership, does not have the right to say, "You shouldn't have done that".
If God is a just like a human, the standards would be different. That's why, for example, the greek pantheon is actually more believable, because they're not all powerful, and they are not all moral and good, which means that they wouldn't need an excuse as to why there is so much shit going on down here.