The Problem With Metal Having Too Many Sub-Genres
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- Spiritbox Vocalist Courney LaPlante recently spoke about how metal has too many sub-genres, so let's take a look at what that may be doing for metal overall and compare with other genres.
00:00 Intro / Background Story
00:25 Let Bands Evolve
03:05 Bands Don't Write Linear
04:58 Ass Beater
06:20 Sub-Genres Divide Fans
09:29 Metal Gatekeeping
12:12 Outro
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"Hot funk, cool punk, even if it's old junk. It's still rock and roll to me." - Billy Joel
Amen to that
Damn straight!!!
Ahhh .... Saint Idol, wisdom from the old school.
YES!!😃
Brilliant quote.
Sub genres are not meant to keep bands in a bubble. They are meant to curate the taste of music you like and find similar artist you might like.
Exactly! Describe the music by sub-genre, don't stuff bands into pigeon-holes
Tell that to r/metalcore😂
Yes, but unfortunately it opens up the gatekeeping.
Maybe it’s my age (53) but I honestly couldn’t care less what someone labels a band as. All that matters to me is if that shit moves me in some way.
@coastalgenetics6512 exactly my point. If there is a certain aspect of the music that moves you, sub genres can assist in finding new artists you might enjoy.
Metal was 100% for the outcasts. For those that were different and needed a community that accepted them just as they were. What's wild to me is the same people that needed that sense of acceptance have become the tormentors they used to hate. Be the person you needed back then. Welcome anyone and everyone into this community, because that's what makes it the best in the biz.
This! We should be happy more people are open to / enjoying what we love. We don't need to be one of the select few, the chosen ones, to like something. Leave that to the hipsters. I would have loved if my interests like D&D would have been more mainstream when I went to school.
People being "different and in need of a community" doesn't make them by default more morally superior than the average. Not sure why that would even be an assumption in the first place?
@@johnnamkeh1290 It's a tribal thing. The more you differ from the "norm" (or what you perceive to be the norm) the more tightly you protect your group against possible invaders. But while that defensive instinct might be warrented in certain situations (discriminated minorities facing harsh consequences), it should not apply to any group in a liberal society, even less for a thing like music that should be shared. But as with most bubbles, the more you interact exclusively with certain individuals that share a trait (like metalheads in this case), the more intolerant your group itself becomes.
Amen! Well said.
not from 1985 to 1995 or so. then it was for the popular kids, and if you wanted to maintain your outcast status, you had to listen to goth stuff and worship Morissey.
I am happy that I started my trip into metal in my mid to late 30s when for me metal was just another field of music. Terms like symphonic, core or prog are helpful for categorising the general style, but don't even ask me what the difference is between death core and metal core is. And I love bands that are able to cross boundaries and surprise me with something new, keeps things spicy and fresh.
Metalcore is a mix of Metal and Hardcore. Deathcore is a mix of Death Metal and Hardcore. 😜
@@TankTheTech This is accurate. I'm on the dense side so I always say there's no "clean" singing in Deathcore. 😁
It is why I like bands like Jinjer far more than bands like Lorna Shore or Slaughter to Prevail.
@TankTheTech which make its a makes them both part of the haedcore genre not metal.
I don't see why people get so mad about that?
@@evacody1249 🤦♀
At the point where ACDC had I think 14 records out they did an interview with Angus. He said the trick isn't to write the same album 14 times in a row. The trick is to write the same album 14 times in a row and keep it interesting.
no one makes 14 albums without dropping at least one bomb with the good stuff.
The problem isn't that there are too many sub-genres. The problem is everyone tries to put bands into a box which often isn't a good fit. Jinjer is a good example of a heavy band that doesn't really fit in a sub-genre other than maybe progressive. Metal is more complicated than many other types of music because the bands are so unique. There is no metal formula like there is to other genres like pop and country. Bands go to great lengths to separate themselves for other metal bands, and therefore there is a great amount of diversity. The best part of metal is just exploring bands and seeing what you like. It's definitely also okay not to like an album from a band despite loving all their other stuff.
Expect there is a metal formula.
If you are not metal you fall into punk, hardcore, goth, or hardrock. That does not mean it's bad. It's just understanding that ROCK music itself had more subgenres.
If a band tries something new it's still the same metal band playing metal. I think it's the need to put a label on every single new thing and to be able to be a part of an even more exclusive club of fans that like this even narrower definition of the genre. And there absolutely is gate-keeping in each genre. Dont you dare show up to a show with the wrong shirt on, or the wrong haircut or do the wrong moves in the mosh pit. It's very shitty to see as someone who grew up in the 80's and 90s listening to metal. It's the nature of humans unfortunately.
I doubt it is even that simple in other genres either, even the formulaic trends change over time. Plus many songs/albums in Alt/Pop/Rock/Rap can fit into multiple of their sub-genres, with bands that play together for decades even more likely to fit in multiple over time. Member changes also can make band style change happen faster, though it also might lead to doubling down on an old style to show they are still the same.
I saw an interview a while back with Jess Allanic, vocalist of the rock band Calva Louise, where she remarked that proliferation of music sub-genres is much like what we see happening with gender identity, insofar as people are finding that there's so many things you can be outside the traditional categories, leading to a greater variety. By the same token, I'll say for music genres what I've said in the past for gender identity: I love that all this variety exists, because it means there's something for everyone, but we need to remember that the labels we give to things should be used as tools to describe, not boxes to confine. It's not the number of genres and sub-genres that's the problem; it's the inflexibility with which people view them.
Incidentally, basically all my favorite musical artists are ones that don't fit neatly into one genre, or drastically change their style from one release to another - artists like Spiritbox, Jinjer, Poppy, and the aforementioned Calva Louise. I think it's really neat when artists evolve over time, and experiment with breaking genre boundaries - that's where novelty and innovation happen!
100% exactly never could put that together more eloquently.
Beautifully put.
right? just let people like things. who cares if it doesn't fit neatly into this perfect little box? do you ENJOY it? then it shouldn't matter.
also, VERY WELL SAID
I've never really gotten all the sub genres. I know it's used to categorize music but I find it all confusing. If I like it, I like it. That's all that matters. I tend to gravitate toward heavier music but I also like alot of very melodic music and clean vocals. I hate gatekeeping too. I want more people to discover the awesomeness. Share the love.
The way I'd describe it is being kind of like an address-the different streets or sectors of a city, each with their own moods and atmospheres. If I'm feeling something specific, I know I can go straight to that address and find something that scratches a particular itch. Black metal and death metal for example often are hard to tell apart to non-metalheads or newcomers, but they really do scratch a different itch from one another (and of course, so do their respective subgenres-big difference between OSDM and modern tech death for example). So goes for any subsection of metal (same too for other supergenres-far from a metal only thing). Of course, using the genre terminology doesn't mean you can't or don't love it all. I go through phases personally-at the moment I'm feeling my jazz-infused death metal. Just before that I was more into modern prog rock, and before that, revivalist NWOBHM.
@@herpyderpy4366 I'm going to need it ELI5 because ffs what the fuck is a tech death? I grew up with bands like Mr. Bungle and Primus that were perfectly fine with not being in ANY genre. You can add Wesley Willis in this too. I got really into bands like Korn and Deftones, even early Incubus - that didn't have a genre until someone coined NuMetal and tossed 1000 bands that sounded nothing like each other under one roof. I think I liked all the forementioned music because it wasn't able to be defined. My band back then had problems with getting marketed because we didn't have "a sound" each song was slightly different from then next because we wanted to be original.
@@Kirkshelton Here, ‘tech’ is short for technical. It's a term that can be applied to all sorts of music as a general descriptor really, but ‘tech death’ as a collocation represents a specific type of frenetic death metal, even if other non-tech death is often nevertheless technical. Agreed on "nu-metal" btw, it's absolutely a clumsy genre. I never really used it myself because it said very little useful about what the sound actually is. Happens a lot with what I always called "magazine genres", which are more of a scene than a genre-the sort of scene a mag or music channel or w/e wants to push or sell copies/view time based on. "Emo" became something similar even though it originally meant a specific type of sound.
That last part checks out-any band I've ever been in that has had more of a keyed-in, neat one-genre (or two at most) sound has always been easier on the publicity front. All of my more experimental outfits had a much harder time. Makes sense really, though. People find it hard to know that they're looking for something that isn't neatly identifiable. If I wanted to look up a band that sounded like Mr. Bungle, I don't know how I'd ever come across them without being told specifically about them (great taste btw).
For me, genres aren't about trying to describe a band, but a sound. Many bands have many sounds, and therefore many genres, be they one at a time throughout the course of their career, a journey throughout an album, or seamlessly integrated into the flow of individual songs.
I think it should be an even mix of innovation and staying true to your roots; maturity or growth is fine.
And to be fair, Spiritbox said in an interview a long time ago that they were gonna put out stuff somw people "weren't gonna really like" but really wanted to release. Props to them for doing whatever they want and not giving a f***
Mostly yes, sometimes circumstances force you to change your sound (like your vocalist retiring), so it's a choice of either evolve or die. And I absolutely understand a band trying to keep up even when facing something like that (especially prominent examples would be Iron Maiden with Bruce Dickinson taking a hiatus, or Nightwish separating with Tarja Turunen). While the original fanbase might disapprove, sometimes you attract people that wouldn't like the old stuff, or just wouldn't like it as much.
Another important thing to note is: Sometimes taste changes. E.g. I really liked Nu and Alt metal along with Punk in high school - a time when many bands start out - and hardly listen to that anymore now, as I am more into folk, prog, power, and symphonic metal along with classical music and opera now. If artists don't enjoy their own music anymore, no one should force them to stay in their respective sub-genre. Art should not be forced, unless you want the quality to drop and the same people that whine about a band doing (slight) adjustments to their sound are the same people that would whine about them not being "as good as they used to".
Metal is such a diverse genre that takes influences from all kind of music (more so than most other genres of music), so it makes kind of sense to create sub genres. While, say, electronic country isn't really a thing. That said, electronic music has same problem as metal, with it's many sub genres and sub-sub genres.
Electronic music was my first thought as well, so I checked the wiki page with a list of genres. There are about 40 different subgenres listed for house alone... And while I don't know about country specifically, folktronica certainly is a thing.
I was exploring electronic music not long ago and it got really overwhelming when you see how many sub-genres it has. And you know when a non-metal listener says "All metal sounds the same". For me it was similar with electronic music, I just couldn't differentiate between some of the sub-genres.
@@perlundgren7797 I just googled 'country subgenres' and the wiki page lists over 40. Some of them are a bit sus, but it's still a fair bit of subdivision you could get into. Best name has to be Hick-hop (couhtry rap) though.
@@Norseduke you mean techno? lol
yeah, I was gonna say the same thing - This is not unique to Metal at all. Electronic music has an absurd amount of sub genres, it might even surpass metal in that regard! But I will say I feel like people that are actually into electronic music (and not just the "wooo EDC party!!!!" people) are much more open and accepting to the various genres as a whole. never really encountered a gatekeeping culture there - it was always more of just a way to catalog music which is how I also always treated metal: "oh, if you like so-and-so then you'll definitely like these dudes who have a similar sound!"
It's a corporatization problem . . . or at least that started it. When radio became so corporate that DJ's lost control we stopped getting exposed to so many different varieties of music. In my teen years (yes, dating myself) we could have a top 10 with Cheap Trick, Pebbles, Def Leppard, Inxs, Michael Jackson, Poison, Debbie Gibson, Richard Marx, Bruce Hornsby and Al B Sure (this week, 1988 btw) . . . we got a huge and diverse exposure to many different kinds of music. And it was driven by real people calling their favorite station and asking to hear stuff, and by DJ's who could do that. We all had our favorites, but we were exposed to a lot of different (and crazy different) stuff.
Hey Tank,
Longntime subscriber and watcher here, I just wanna say that you are doing a fantastic job with these videos. My day becomes a little bit better every time I see you upload a new video.
Keep the awesome work that you are doing.
CHEERS MATE
I feel like Whitechapel is a pretty fair example of the whole adding cleans and everyone being like WTF!? I know at first I was like wtf is this?! But that's because I was so used to the full on gutturals and highs of the previous albums. As I listened, and re-listened to tracks/albums I grew to love them as much, if not more than some older material. I feel like if you're a true fan of a band, or music in general, you respect a band's or artist's new direction even if it isn't what you're used to. If you like it, great. If you don't, just move the fuck on.
There's definitely a right way and a wrong way to add clean vocals. I think Coma Ecliptic by Between the Buried and Me is a fucking masterpiece and is brilliant song writing and mood creation. But then there's bands where it's the heaviest shit you've ever heard bookending auto-tune hair-metal pop chorus. It feels forced to me in a number of ways. I get it you want to do something new but try harder. On the other hand when a band that is a good heavy band tries something new, sometimes it's just not good. There's legitimate criticism in that. It's not because they changed, but because they just sucked at it.
I really like these discussion style videos, love opening up a conversation
Thank you for making this video. It made me think about what I was looking for in music and why I thought the type of metal I was listening to had to be a specific type. I appreciate the insight on your end. 😊
Honestly, I think metalheads are the most diverse with what they'll listen to. I know a bunch of people, myself included, that can jam out to Megadeath and Pantera and then turn around and sing along with Taylor Swift while dancing around the kitchen.
I'm a metalhead by default, but I love listening to other stuff too.
Yeah same, I listen to metal (power, prog, folk, doom, thrash, metalcore)
Electronic (house, trance, melodic dubstep, chillstep)
Rock
Nu metal
Punk
Celtic
Folk
Rap
Ska
@@senditkevin is there a reason why you seperate nu metal from metal?
@@MK-wx5vu No, just making the list and remembered the genre later.
I love your channel, brother! You are always entertaining.
As a kid I mentally exhausted myself with all the "That's not Death Metal that's Grindcore" talks I used to get from my older friends who turned me on to Metal. Then from my Rivet Head friends It was always "That's not Industrial that's Darkwave". It kinda made me feel a bit dumb back then and sometimes I still get things confused but I think that the variety really makes this all a true art scene.
Your not dumb, they are. Great example of taking this shit too far.
Subgenres is the last thing keeping metal from the mainstream. And as a whole, metal has been thriving in the internet age and we have viral reaction videos to thank for that.
The bands that play that "sub genres" are usually mainstream, the band mentioned in this video is not even metal!!!
You and I pretty much agree on the attitude towards music: like what you like, and I'm happy you receive meaning from whatever that is. Also, if a band doesn't sometimes put out something I don't like, then either I or the band is not growing. Music is an art form, and must evolve for the creator to continue to prosper intellectually and emotionally.
Great observations by you & Courtney.
Valid. I will say I didn't like a couple of the new songs they've put out, but that's my opinion. I still like them as a band, how could you not? They're super talented
I'm totally on board with this sentiment and would love for metal to just explode in popularity,
But as someone else commented it's nice to have the subs to categorize sound wise, and a big pet peeve is when someone hears I'm mostly into Death/core the assume 1. I hate all other music or 2. That I will like anything the an electric guitar, when in truth I'd rather listen to trap or shakira rather than the 80's and 90's top hits.
Rant over, don't know what I wanted to say with that but anyway! keep up the good content and if you havn't already throw Synestia and Disembodied Tyrants new single "I, the devourer" a listen, it's my favourite song of the year and their upcoming collab album/EP is gonna be fire!
Woo, lots of good stuff to talk about here:0
Metal subgenres are pretty insane. I only got into metal in the past couple years and its definitely overwhelming. I found your channel from reactions like im sure many of us did, but ive watched hip hop people do reactions too and it does sound like they have a lil bit of this going on in that genre for sure as well.
I think subgenres can be really useful, but as soon as fans or the metal community at large starts making subgenres into strict boxes it becomes increasingly negative.
She mentioned people don't like to let bands change and experiment and i definitely see that across all my genres i listen to. I got into pop punk music nearly twenty years ago and I'm still following some of my favorites there and this happens with every new release; it's baffling.
I loved that you talked about people holding on to the concept of metal being a counter culture and something "for" them/us and the disconnect that forms now that it's becoming more mainstream because theres another big community this is happening in: the "nerd" community!
Back in the 80s, 90s, and honestly even the 00s, there was so much bullying if you were into anything that was considered nerdy. I really do feel like the internet and social media is at least partially responsible for the change... Its much easier to meet other people who like what you like, and once enough of you gather in a public online space... Other people start looking and going "wait actually i want to know more about this" and it becomes normalized.
Also, on the topic of people hating stuff that is different, unfortunately a lot of people never really learn how to critically engage with media, and to them, not meeting their personal taste = bad.
Obviously I understand not everyone has time to write out a lengthy review of their thoughts on the choices being made, but I do wish they'd be a little more self aware that maybe... Things aren't bad just because you personally don't like them. ESPECIALLY considering the state of social media today, where a lot of people have accidentally taken this "not likable = objectively bad" stance as part of their core worldview... That's a totally different soapbox than the one you're talking about, though. 😅
I liked what you said about bands progressing. For me I like it when bands progress, except for a few, Nightwish is one that I simply do not like where they are now. So I simply enjoy the first 2 eras and leave the the last 2 albums for others to enjoy
I never got cozy with all those genre and sub-genre stuff. I mostly listen to music and decide if I like it or move on. That is why I love channels like yours, so I can dive into some new stuff! And new Spiritbox? Give it to me :D
Guys, please, im asking for help😅 Can somebody tell the name of the album hanging behind Tank's back, the second row from the top, the second cover from the right - a white figure on a black background and a white inscription at the top. Something very familiar, but I can't figure out what exactly
Super thoughtful dive into the subgenre-thing. Even for those of us who have been into metal for decades, it is so overwhelmingly confusing.
I have said it to friends before but there's just something about metal where you seemingly can do anything with it and it seems to work. It's something you can't get away with in other genre either. Ever since I was a kid and downloading off of KaZaa and Likewire, we were finding metal versions of songs and video game music. There's just something about metal that's fun to add to and experiment with.
That being said, yes, every day I feel like I'm reading a new sub genre name and I'm not sure how they all work anymore. I just saw "sludge" and "stoner" listed as a sub and I have no idea who falls into that or why.
I never heard of "djent" until I started learning about Spiritbox through you and Nik
It's just interesting to me, too, they outside EDM, metal is so fractured in how things fall in together that they're are all these subgenre...
Very interesting video and points Courtney and yourself bring up though
EDIT: I think music was the one area I did not get made fun of in school lol everything else, INCLUDING liking the Ninja Turtles and being an artist, got made fun of. I do know it took me a long time to figure out what I like as far as music goes... I do remember owning some classic rock CDs and being told I have my parents music, and I specifically remember in 8th grade someone going through my CD book and seeing ZZ Top and mocking me for listening to "old guy music"
Just crazy to hear that you got made fun of over metal. I still don't hear that it's "cool hip" now, I always here how extreme it is and that I don't like "real" music since I'm very ignorant to what's popular and who's on the radio or trending
I found rock/metal in 2002-3 after I graduated high school. To that point I listened to almost solely country. I barely listen to it today but I know those songs like it was still the 90s. Only other music/time combo that competes with 90s country in the "easy to remember/sit in your head" is early to mid 2000s pop. Now that I am attuned to rock and metal, 1980s holds that kind of position for me but it took awhile to get there. I am often late to the party for metal bands, especially since some of the ones I listen to the most formed in the years before I listened to it or had real exposure to it. Rock and metal radio limits exposure a great deal. For example, I discovered Amon Amarth and Hatebreed in 2021. I can jam to them all day for weeks at a time. Only band I really caught on the way up was Five Finger Death Punch, which I can also jam out to. Nowadays, FFDP is a band I have to be in more specific mood to listen to. Hatebreed took FFDP's place in my music listening tier because the latter is overwhelmingly negative. I am not saying I am a beacon of positivity only but damn. Avenged Sevenfold is one of my favorite bands probably in part because their music library gives so much choice to go with. I was also late to the party there, too. I never listened to them while The Rev was still alive.
I think that you like what you like; one of the great opportunities for reaction videos is for you to have someone explain why a song is great so that you can appreciate it.
You should totally do a video series covering each and every metal and rock sub genre, complete with a short history, band and music examples, and images of what band members and fans tend to dress like / present themselves.
While these sub-genres can be helpful to determine if one is most likely going to enjoy a particular band, or not, it's easy to run the risk of trying to fit certain bands into very specific boxes. I think it's true to say that a lot of bands don't fit neatly into a box, and for the bands who do fit inside a particular box, that box can restrict bands' creativity, and I imagine such restrictions would be very frustrating for the band, and perhaps the quality of their music would suffer as a result.
On a different note, I personally hope that you'll do more "Roadie Reactions" videos. I do like the videos you've been making lately, but I have to admit that I also miss your reactions
I love how metal has so many sub-genres. I love how you can take any kind of music and scramble it around to make it metal. It makes it so versatile a genre, and it means I can get ANYONE into metal.
I remember seeing Travis from Trivium saying how when they were touring for Ascendancy or Shogun that they always planned on making music like Silence in the Snow
I started listening to The Warning recently. Warms my old:ish heart to see young ladies rocking it.
Anyways, I like the fact that people go weird when we talk about other favorite bands and I list: Behemoth, Jinjer, Mehuggah etc. 😂
The Warning is such a great band! It's insane how talented they are - _Queen of the Murder Scene_ is a legit masterpiece!
And the live show for the album is extremely good. 😊
Yeah they are a hardrock band. That does not make them bad either being a hardrock band.
I’ve seen quite a few people call them metal, which I personally wouldn’t. I think it’s because they have some metal elements mixed in with many other influences, all the way to k-pop, and that’s one of the things I love about them. But some fans don’t react well to them changing their sound, like they did with the single More. You see hard rock gatekeeping there, anything more “pop” gets trashed before people even give it a proper listen.
While I agree with you pretty much 100%. Where does it say that fans *have to* like everything that an artist puts out? I personally think "More" was/is weak, but I still consider myself a fan.
Now that I'm older, I like to mess with people by wearing a Poison t-shirt to something like a Lorna Shore concert. You nailed it in this vid. I grew up in the 80's and 90's so I was around for the beginning of thrash, then death metal and then it became black metal and then melodic death and atmospheric hard core and on and on. As a teenager, I liked everything but I had to hide it from my friends that I liked to listen to Motley Crue as much as Morbid Angel. Now that I'm an old fart, I'm just as comfortable at a Ratt concert as I am at Amon Amarth. I don't give a F anymore about what genre or style it is. If it makes me feel good, count me in.
Exactly.
I have listened to Rock and Metal for over 50 years, but I also listen to other music and enjoy it as well, there have been albums by bands I like that just leave me cold, by the same token artists I don't normally like can and have released music that just hits the spot for me. I don't get the subgenre thing and never have really, if I like a song or an album great I listen to it, clear case is bands I have seen in the last year, Bloodywood, The HU, Devin Townsend, Puscifer, Nightwish and Hollywood Vampires, how diverse is that grouping, but I enjoyed every Concert for what it was, a band or artist putting on a great show with music I love.
What is crazy as an artist is how often people forget that some projects or bands are working on very tight budgets and so that can really screw with the timelines and what gets released when. I work mostly solo and budget drives my releases more than anything.
I have 2 new singles coming out over the next month, but they were finished as far as I could take them within a month of the first 2 songs releasing.
I actually agree with you about the whole feeling like an outcast. Okay I'm not necessarily a gatekeeper BUT I am very aware of what my friends like and don't like. I try to convince them to listen to Metal or even Alternative Rock that I enjoy but for the most part I am not very successful even with my cousin Logan who ACTUALLY got me into Electric Callboy
I have been into metal since the 70s. And I have always kept up with the music and I always love the new stuff. Whatever year it is. I never kept up with the sub genre schtick. It's all just METAL to me.
As for Spiritbox. I love how eclectic they are. Always changing their songs. Just enjoy the hell out of their music.
Before I even get started on watching the vid, Thank you! I am lost in all o these genre/labeling things. All I know is the 4 main food, I mean music groups. Country, Rock, Rap, Metal. Yeah I have respect and love for the others that are respectively in a league of their own like Opera, MOTOWN! and whatever else that is slipping my mind but it's really all just art for the soul from different perspectives. Like what u like, always try new things and jus call it what it is....music.
🤦♂️
96' kid here
I landed on 06' to 13' era shit mostly through school years and I by proxy loved the metalcore stuff the most except I couldn't stand bands that incorporated the Techno EDM shit at the time. Not to mention hated most rap and the trap that was emerging too
Fast forward to now and I share much of the same sentiments as you Tank and I believe our ears just need time to grow and adjust to new tastes. Never thought I'd love country now too
That’s the beauty of the sub-genres in metal. There’s metal for every occasion and every mood! I rarely listen to other genres (when on my own), partly because there’s enough diversity in metal to satisfy whatever I feel like at the time.
With my band SCYLA, we actually tried something out as we were going from easy core to metalcore by making a song that changes throughout the song, evolving from our former “style” to our new style.
We constantly hear mixed opinions on some ppl liking our old stuff when we were doing easy core and others saying it’s so much better whilst at the same time some ppl say it’s not metalcore. And that fully depends on the song.
Just please listen to the song and see if you like it or not. Doesn’t mean you dislike it because it doesn’t ring true to what some people deem to be the “right” metalcore.
Boy, do I have thoughts on these.
First, as far as bands putting out different/new sounding music: when I was young, I used to feel like bands were betraying themselves, selling out, etc. when they wrote new stuff that didn't sound like their previous releases. As I've gotten older, I've come to the realization that it's just a fact of life, musicians change, their lives change, and so their art will change too. So I've gotten to a point where I no longer say I'm a fan of a certain band. I will say I'm a fan of certain albums. For example, there are about three Lamb of God albums I really enjoy in Ashes of the Wake, Sacrament, and Wrath. But outside of that, I don't care for much of their stuff, and particularly recently it just seems like it's formulaic and written to follow the template they found on Wrath and continued since Resolution. That doesn't mean Lamb of God sucks or that they aren't putting out good music, they've just reached a point where I don't like their music. When I found Nekrogoblikon, I loved three of the albums they had put out and I was super excited about their last release, but when it came out, I listened to it three or four times and realized it just didn't resonate with me. Do I think Nekroblikon sucks now? No! Nikki is writing the music that he wants to write how he wants to write it. I just don't like it as much as some of their other music. Same goes for Metallica post the Black album. Same goes for Rammstein post Mutter. They aren't betraying anything, these bands are writing what they like and think is good at the time and all this gnashing of teeth about them not being the band they were or selling out is nonsense.
The one big trend I have noticed is that most bands - particularly the bigger, more popular metal bands - tend to lean more and more mainstream as time goes on. Metallica reduced the speed and aggressiveness in their later albums, Slipknot really softened a bit after Iowa, etc. Perhaps this is why I tend to dislike a lot of bands' later material, since I find most mainstream music to be boring and uninspired.
Second, subgenres: when I was growing up and getting into metal, subgenres were a handy way to describe a band to someone so they knew what they were getting into before purchasing (or *ahem* downloading) an album, or going to a show. Telling someone that Opeth was progressive death metal meant an easy way to distinguish them from Throwdown or Gorgoroth, who were still "metal", but sounded wildly different from anything Opeth was doing. The problem has become recently so many bands have crossed the traditional subgenre lines and everyone still tries to put them into neat little boxes that they aren't allowed to stray out of. My brother, sister, and I used to make fun of it, even years ago: "Who wants a new Blackened Symphonic Progressive Trollcore Power Thrash metal album??" Many of the modern popular metal bands don't have a genre, they're just modern metal, which theoretically is good if we can reduce the obsession with subgenres, but it also means they have to do a lot more to stand out from a packed field of other modern metal bands, and we as listeners have to wade through a lot more stuff we don't like to find the nuggets we do. Old subgenres and the disparate sounds they represented used to make it easier to find bands that played a style you liked, and were therefore more likely to be something you would enjoy. While that's still the case in more independent and fringe bands, the bands that get play on SiriusXM and the like all kind of fall into just a semi-generic "metal" category.
Third, to the point about other music genre fans not splitting hairs like metal fans do: no other genre of modern music has the same breadth of sounds and aesthetics that metal does. The point Tank made about country music fans is a prime example: most of country these days is written to a formula that they know sells and works. It's why it's easy to create things like that "Every country song is the same" video (if you haven't seen it, look it up). And while you can make an argument about bands within a subgenre sounding similar or even the same, "metal" encompasses everything from Archspire to Opeth to Megadeth to Bathory to Katatonia to Motley Crue to Sonata Arctica and many, many more, which aside from some double bass and distorted guitars sound almost nothing alike. Sure, other genres do have some subgenres, but rap has maybe 3-4 distinct "styles" these days? Pop is the same as country, with little variation between artists.
So yes, subgenres are a bit out of control, but they can still be useful, and one of the things I love about metal is its diversity of sound, and being able to describe that diversity helps people find new metal they enjoy. Metal is not like other genres of music, and that's a good thing. But not everything needs to have a label, and trying to put bands into specific boxes doesn't help.
I've given up trying to remember all the sub genres a while ago.
I'll listen to whatever catches my attention
I like clean vocals more than harsh vocals but best band i've ever seen life? That was Amon Amarth - not what i would listen to on a daily basis but holy sh*** they're a blast live.
And i'll absolutely go to another of their concerts.
I usually listen to bands that do either mostly clean vocals or completely clean vocals but i do enjoy listening to bands with purely harsh vocals on occasion too - just depends on the song.
And if a band tries something completely new? I'm all for it, if the song is to my liking i'll play it on repeat, if i don't like it no big deal.
But i've to admit that i like to listen to classic music too and even like to listen to opera every now and then and i'm a big fan of musical theater.
I'll listen to nearly anything but if someone puts on German Schlager i'm gone - that is the only genre of music i absolutely despise
In response to the songs coming out after but being made before. Justin from Tallah literally said that pretty much all of "The Generation of Danger" was written before "Matriphagy"
Nightwish is a band that enables people to create a new sub-genre with each song! 😆
“I want my tears back” to “Master Passion Greed”. Y’all know what I’m saying…. 😉🤘🏻🙏🏻❤️
I honestly stopped trying to follow the subgenres about 30 years ago, when I realized I was missing out on a lot of great music by judging them on what they are labeled as.
The more music one listens to, the more apparent it becomes the this self limiting strategy is robbing them of a lot of good stuff.
And as a musician, I can testify that in a band, at any given time, there are at least half a dozen songs in the backburner, waiting for the right jamming session to manifest themselves!
I'm not the type of person who goes around to random people saying I listen to Progressive Metal adjacent Post Metal but those specific labels come in handy when I am looking for bands.
I hate people who use those labels and gatekeep. Gatekeepers are and always have been the bane of the metal community.
I like sub categories. Gives me a heads up what hard pounding music has that melodic soft vocals one second and growls the next not to check out..
As to your comment about letting bands try something new.
My two favorite bands Iron Maiden and Papa Roach have put out more albums recently that I don't like than I do. Doesn't make me dislike either of them.
Maiden has gotten older, and more progy because they like the more intricate and complicated stuff. That's fine. I'd rather they do something they love than something to try and please the fans. Even if I don't care for it personally.
Same with Papa Roach. I've only liked one of their last few albums (Crooked Teeth). They are stretching and trying new things. And that is great. For them.
What still keeps them as my favorite groups though, is that they both still bring it live.
No matter what is on the latest album, I know I am going to have a great time at the show.
Sweet, new Spiritbox can't wait
Sub-genres seem more a way to recommend other songs/albums/artists you might like, construct radio programing, or a consideration bands could look at on who might pair well with on tour or at a festival. Though I would be somewhat surprised if there were more sub-genres of metal than rock, but part of that is number of rock eras. Plus I remember in high school and collage hearing dislike of sub-genres in most of the major genres of music, granted maybe it is not to the same extent or maybe there is more difference between the subgenres in metal so there would be less natural crossover of the fans of some of them.
Hey man, a little off topic but Im just curious if we are gonna get a reaction to the new Orbit Culture song ?
Only thing i heard different about Country,was Shania Twain that combined pop and even rock elements in her country music,and therefor she used to get alot of hatred within the country community,where people called her "not a real and worthy Country artist". But i also think that she cleared a path to newer country artists and bands we saw come up on the charts after her prime days.
Interesting topic,i noded towards Courtneys words. Metal has a weird amount of sub genres. I never could understand why it couldnt all be called metal or heavy metal.
Every instrument hits a tone where it goes from being pop or rock up to becoming a metal riff or whatever. And then there are soo many instruments together at theyr heaviest,where it could be seen as heavy metal. Much easier then trying to separate different metal music from one another.
In my experience it all has just created a bigger splitting within the metal genre,and even increased hatred from "metalhead to metalhead" then it created anything positive from it.
Buzz cut Tank looks dope af btw
Perhaps this comment is unecessary (and I refrain from commenting on videos )
But I must say I really enjoy this channel and have gone on a binge just listening to videos play on there own while at work.
I just recently had a dream about watching this Chanel while I was dreaming 😅
Just felt like sharing
"Let the bands be creative and do what they want to do." Thank You
Same thing happens with sci-fi and fantasy fan bases. It was a home for outcasts twenty years ago, and they are still super protective of it. Part of it is how much identity some folk invest in things like music genre or fiction genre.
Judging SubGenres in any type of metal is like judging a book by its cover, you can find gems in any genre, good metal musicians are good musicians, put the good musicians in any genre, their music will be good because within the nuts and bolts of music, these musicians have that “IT” factor, and sub genres are not the reason they are good, it’s deeper in my humble opinion
I tried explaining the various genres of metal to my niece once. After I finished she said. "Scary metal and not scary metal."
So there you go -- two genres.
When i tried to see if my music tastes fit more with a sub genre, like Nu-metal, prog, metalcore, etc...
It just became so confusing.
I found I just like Theatrics. Can I write a story or action scene? Does it make me feel a way? Stuff like that.
Speaking of versatile...this is one of the primary reasons I like Jinjer so much. They can do a number of different tempos and aggressiveness changes and still make it all work. ---- But let me go to one band I did sour on for a while, Metallica. After the Kill'em All, Master, Ride the Lightning there (to me) seemed to be a little bit of slump in the aggressiveness and thrash which is one of the things that drew me to them. The new 72 season felt like it brought a little of that back. But again...there were a couple albums there that just lost the "edge" I liked about them.
I’ll be seeing Spiritbox next month with Shinedown and Papa Roach and I’ll guarantee they’ll come out and some people will wonder wtf is this? I’m sure it was even worse with Jinjer opening for Disturbed and Breaking Benjamin. I went to their off date headlining show simply because I wanted to see them again up close and personal with a long set but I’d seen comments from people who said they were too heavy for them. 😄
Metal and Dance music has the same crazy sub genre thing going on. I won't take the piss out of either as I know people who love and make music in both worlds, but... hot damn, trying to keep up with all the genres, sub genres, sub-sub genres, and on into infinity, is a complete mindfuck. Now, I'm in my 50s so we had metal - Motorhead, Maiden, Priest, Sabbath, etc - but it was also "rock" to some people. Hey, Lemmy always said all they played was rock n roll, really loud and fast lol. But all that metal, the forefathers, would seem pretty tame compared to all the modern genres. I can remember when emo came out and that was loud guitars and screaming bits so it sounded a little bit metal, but "No" I was told, you had to listen to Screamo or Hardcore, and I was like okay, sure I'll try it, then of course there was a whole load of mainstream metal - i.e. sold records - like Metallica, Anthrax, Panterra - but wait... there was more... and eventually I just said, guys... I give up. I'm not a teenager anymore and can't keep track of what was cool and what was uncool and frankly don't care. The more extreme modern metal is never gonna be mainstream anyway but it will have its masses of fans willing to fill out arenas and festivals to see a wide ranging bill of acts. I guess it'd hard to see where the next word-dominating act is going to come from? If a band is going to reach that level then they're going to need that crossover hit whether it's "Enter Sandman" or "Ace of Spades" or something from Bring Me the Horizon maybe??? And then they've sold out and get flak but at least they can take over the headline slots at the big festivals and keep metal alive for generations to come. PS: 8 string guitars are a stupid idea. Not related to anything else, just had to get it off my chest lol.
Gah this is such a tricky topic. When I was in my early 20s I got dunked on by the local metal scene for not liking black metal (and thus I was "not a real metal head"). The excessive gatekeeping ended up killing off the scene, there are no local bands left, the local community discord is a vast expanse of nothing-ness. There are 2 festivals every year but the line up is now like 6 bands (vs the 20 something bands and multiple stages from many years ago). So change and diversity is actually really important.
Commercial success is also one of those things that walks a fine line. On the one hand, I want bands to do well financially. I want people to know these bands. But when things go really well, stuff gets out of the hands of the original folks and it looses the touch/flavour/vibes it once had.
Henry Rollins said something wonderful about this (search for "Henry Rollings on Selling Out" to find the video). It was something like, "Selling out is when you make the record you're told to make instead of the one you want to make."
I recently fell in love with a band called Diablo Swing Orchestra. I most often hear them called "avant garde metal", but if pressed I wouldn't have called them metal at all; i certainly couldn't put them in a subgenre I'm familiar with. I think that's a strength rather than a weakness, as any record could have something entirely new and unexpected, and that brings fans from all over the place.
I think metal has subgenres like it does because of how heavy it is -- it's on the edge of abrasive and everyone has their own appreciation limits on that. But as bands, the more you subdivide and categorise yourself, the less creative you can be.
Honestly I don't give a crap what genre of music you are as long as you make good music that I enjoy. I meticulously genre categorize my music library and music listening habits only so that I can find new music that fits my taste and so anyone I suggest music to can get an idea of what my suggestion sounds like without me having to go into a long explanation. Also, on the topic of bands changing their sound and "alienating" their fan base, who cares as long as it's good. I'm a huge Paramore fan and they went from pop punk/emo to post-punk with their latest record and it's all really good.
It can be a problem, it can also be a blessing. Metal is varied even if some people says it all sounds the same. Thrash sounds different to power which sounds different to black. And even within sub genres, there are differences. For example I have a love hate relationship with metalcore. It's a mix of metal and punk, and as I love metal but don't really like punk, it can be hit and miss depending how heavily a band leans either way. I love Killswitch Engage and As I Lay Dying but can't stand A Day to Remember. Both metalcore but to me, night and day. So when the metalcore bands I like can be defined as melodic metalcore based on their leanings towards melodic death metal bands like In flames who I also love, it makes it easier to find new metalcore bands if I can pinpoint it to just melodic metalcore. So in this case its good. But at the same time, I cringe at the idea of many subgenres which aren't really subgenres but a band attempt to highlight themes or gimmicks. Viking metal for example. Amon Amarth is not a viking metal band in my eyes. They are Melodic Death Metal with viking themes. Alestorm are not Pirate Metal but Power Metal with pirate themes. And I don't understand what crabcore or Nintendo core are, but I can imagine they are equally as useless subgenres which is based more on themes than actual styles. Do we rely on subgenres too much? Maybe. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. My favourite band is trivium and I couldn't even tell you what subgenre they are because they just play what feels right to them, and their sound has shifted from Metalcore to Thrash to Death Metal to a mix of all of the above, and some of their newer music has Progressive moments in them. It's a cluster but I don't care because I love the music. It doesn't matter to me what subgenre they are. But if I ever hear a small band and think, I like this, I want to hear more like this, it can be helpful to check what surbgenre they are to find more like them, so at the same time, subgenres are good.
Hi! My take on this is, and has allways been, I don´t care about genres. I simply love good music.
on topic of the clean-metal-core-refrains: I'm guilty of that one XD for me many, many bands can't keep the momentum from the verse when they go into the refrain and suddenly cleans come in oO
I do we need more than four metal genre when we discuss metal? In modern metal you can fit a lot of subgenre into, classical metal (all the classic genre like Heavy metal and power metal), Extreme metal and Hardcore. Deathcore you could put in both Modern metal and Extreme metal depending on the band. Genre like melodic death metal depends on which band it is, some you will place in modern and some have a more classic feal.
May I request a reaction?
The band is "Aesthetic Perfection"
And the song "Summer Goth"
The local scene kinda just does whatever they want ahaha, yes there's alot of sub genres so to speak, but having done my podcast and talking to alot of bands and asking them what their band is, sometimes they just make something up because it's funny or attracts people, like Demsfightinwords calls themselves hoodcore, or Belushi Speed Ball sometimes reffering to themselves as pizza-core. It's all about being authentic and making the stuff that makes you happy.
Recently I wrote an article about comedic metal bands and included bands from very different genres. Some people in the comments tried to convince me that they are not metal at all. I openned wikipedia and found list of metal only dub-genres. There were 70 of them, not including rock music. It's so wide, that people from the ends of this spectrum will never identify opposite music as metal :D
TIL Taylor Swift is Country.
It could also be a more old-school POV on singles. Back in the day, a single used to be (or at least was supposed to be) indicative of the kind of sound you could expect from the upcoming LP. But times have changed, and so has the purpose of singles.
This hits somewhat close to home for me :D I was the kid in school listening to german pagan metal like In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, Feuerschwanz, Subway to Sally and many more. Nowadays I pretty much lost touch with that scene. I still love Feuerschwanz, but In Extremo grew old and Saltatio Mortis tries to become the next Die Toten Hosen and I dont like the attitude they bring to the table in their publications on social media. But hey, they are still huge and they make "good" music and people like them, so power to them. Just not my cup of tea anymore, but it doesnt have to be.
Also, Metal is in my opinion one of the most versatile if not THE most versatile style of music. If there is an instrument, then some metal song used it. If there is a singing style, metal has it. From gutteral non verbal sounds over rap to high level classical opera singing, from your standard guitar, over bagpipes to beer kegs. It is this huge overarching genre that has something in it for pretty much everyone and thats why it might appear that the niches are fighting over their place in metal, but in the end we all agree: We hate Schlager.
What the hell is pagan metal?
From an old metalhead, I think that when a band came with a new sound and other bands took that sound and turned it into a subgenre it made sense. Think about thrash metal and power metal, both came from heavy metal and taking that sound of the NWOBHM bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest and taking them on different directions and it made sense thinking "oh, you liked Metallica, you have to listen to Slayer now!".
But I think back to Black Sabbath, you could listen to Black Sabbath and song after song you didn't know what to expect. You could go from a song like Paranoid to Black Sabbath (the song) to War Pigs to Iron Man and you never knew what was coming next in terms of style, songs could surprise you in terms of structure, sound, length, lyrical themes, it wasn't like "this doesn't sound like Black Sabbath because it's too dark" or "this doesn't sound like Black Sabbath because it's too happy".
Even with bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest in their first albums there was a great variety of sounds. I think bands weren't playing FOR a subgenre, they were real songwriters in the sense of "this song is about this, let's think of a sound for the song", but when you put yourself in a box and all your songs are about murder and violence, well, all your songs are going to sound similar.
I was in with the subgenres for a long time because there's some fun into thinking "this is a new sound, how do we categorize it?" but it seems now like a band pulls out an album, sounds a little different to the other thousand subgenres we came up with, so now we need to come up with a new subgenre for this band and in a way, I think the fans end up putting the band in that box by saying "this is how you should sound" and that sucks. Whilst it's true that I don't want Cannibal Corpse to release a ballads album (hilarious as that would be), I don't want every band to be like "ok, from now on all our songs are going to be about fairies and dragons and they have to sound like that one song everyone liked".
Man I just like da sounds of music. Don’t matter to me if it sounds the same or if it’s unique to me, I just love music.
On one hand, i like diving into a sub genre and knowing what im going to get. If im looking for a particular sound then i just search the subgenre and i have it.
On the other hand. I hate finding a band thats great and seeing 12 subgenres tied to them and they sound like none of them.
I think sub genres are good, to an extent. While it can be overwhelming, sometimes pointless and the gate keeping sucks ass....Sometimes it can be helpful, even to a "beginner".
In a friend group I'm in, we like to share music back and forth, to which they dubbed me "the agressive and scary one". One person in that group was talking to me about how she found my music taste fascinating, but VERY intimidating. She genuinely wanted to learn about it, but the really agressive stuff overwhelmed her. After her asking questions (like who my favorite vocalists are and why), I was able to get a feel for what she might find palatable. I ended up giving her at least 8 or 9 bands to try right off the bat and gave her a couple sub genres that she could enjoy.
I'm nowhere near an expert, but I used the knowledge I had to help someone out that was having trouble navigating and was uncomfortable with "the scary stuff".
that is exactly what I think those stupid discussions. I like many kinds of metal and if a band sounds different, I always try to go the way with them.
For example equilibrium put out a new single and half of the comments say that they are dead to them or that they should found a new band or change their name. I like the new song and it is sad to me that they don´t talk about the music itself. In Flames is also an example of a band which get always judged because oft their development.
I love that metal has many sub genres because their is so much creativity and styles of music that can be decovered. My life can be as boring as hell (or heaven 😈) but music will never be
My favourite genre is Grindcore/PV. Many of the "elitist" want to keep this as small and underground as possible, but i try to spread the music across everyone i know. Most grind shows in my area are already small enough, so every new face in the pit is great 👍
I only started to listen to metal in the last 10 years [not including the very mainstream songs] but honestly, I never pay any attention to what sub-genre anything claims to be. I think most of it comes from knowing that I don't know sh!t about metal so I might as well give it all a try/ listen.
I love my metal. I have kinda outgrown some metal bands, and some metal styles in general. I found as I got older i gravitated more towards power metal and the clean vocals. Does this mean i stopped listening to old In Flames? Nope, Jester Race, imho is one of the best metal albums of all time. Constantly like listening to the new album, and stuff like reroute to remain. Still listen to Arch Enemy, and Killswitch engage. I just like metal, and if the rifts, lyrics, or drumming is there, than I am down. Do not care what sub genre it is, I just know i generally gravitate towards power metal.
11:20 same thing with gaming. I kind of get that. When something goes mainstream that you love it feels a little wrong. Also mainstream interaction with it often feels more disposable and like just another thing, whereas metal could have been an integral part of someones life growing up. It do agree that its better to just let it go, though
Dude there are genres in gaming because when I say I want a game like Final Fantasy or Guild Wars 2 handing me Call of Duty or Madden is the wrong option.
Get Courtney on the back lounge. I genuinely reckon that would be an interesting conversation
I mostly don’t even know the differences in sound with the sub scene’s.
I feel like hip hop is like that too a bit. East coast vs west coast both had a problem with MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice, some people hate mumble rap, some people hate that trap high hat, some hate people that sample too much, some hate emo rap, some hate whatever ICP is, rap metal got a lot of hate from a lot of places, etc.
I also kinda think Country is pop music with a built in identity.
Dont mind me, just sitting here listening to Meshuggah remade with the Super Mario 64 soundfront. New genre, Super Metalio 64?
Regarding mixed vocals, my first beloved band with mixed vocals was Battlelore, having a clean female vocalist and a growling male vocalist, harmonizing extremely well. So maybe I never had a chance to be picky here ;) Haggard is also a really great example.
And well... I love Make them Suffer so I'll never complain about clean or mixed vocals.
Overall I think the elitism regarding subgenres or arbitrariy attributes (like only harsh vocals) is primarily a protective mechanism. Metal is or at least was an outsider's music and became a central part of their identity for many. The elitism is a usual reflex to feel more important about that identity and seperate yourself from the "casuals" or the "mainstream". But I also feel like most people that grow up to the point where they find their own identity beyond external factors also grow out of this elitism. So it's mostly a thing you can grow out of.
Regarding subgenres themselves, I'm mixed about them. I feel like they are useful to describe the vibe or direction of a band or an album or simply a song. Metal is extremely diverse. I'm a Metalhead, been so for half my life and more and my taste has changed. I grew to love Metal with Power Metal (and even there Blind Guardian started more in the Speed Metal area and the first two albums definitely show that), continued with more Epic or Heavy stuff, dabbled in Pagan and Blackened and by now I wouldn't actively listen to many things I grew up with. I still like them, I'm still happy for people who enjoy them. But if someone came to me and said "check out this new Power Metal band, they're sick!", I'm probably not interested. If I hear "listend to this blackend progressive Metalcore" I'm gonna be like "Hells yeag! Gimme dat!".
Though I agree that being too close minded about genres and defining bands through subgenres instead of themselves is simply not helpful.
I've been dealing with a fair amount of gatekeeping lately in online spaces since I have been gravitating more towards shoegazey, doom-adjacent subgenres. As someone who used to constantly seek out heavier and heavier music and eventually hit the ceiling; I quickly realized that I don't actually like metal that is heavy simply for the sake of being heavy alone. Not to mention how problematic a lot of the obscenely heavy bands tend to be. Like hey, let's all write lyrics that trivialize very real issues and trauma that unfortunately plagues a large swathe of the population, no harm could come from that, right?
I think the older you get the less you care about genres. My taste still includes many metal bands i used to hear when i was young but others have been added. But i also nowadays like Reggae, Rap ( which i hated when started getting popular) and many more. I don't care anymore i just enjoy 😊
Yes absolutely. Thank you for this. A few months ago I saw a video from a well known, very opinionated CZcamsr who talks about metal music and the whole video was filled with genre religion. So much so it put me on a tirade about it for several days. I am 57. At the risk of being that ranting old man ("why in my day we used to roll racks of CS800s up hill both ways to gigs! Damn kids") I remember when metal was just metal period. I get that people need ways to explain what a band sounds like to people who haven't heard them and that genres can assist in doing that IF the person knows what those boxes mean in the first place. But I really don't think 30+ genres some of them with ONE BAND in them is of any use at all.
I do think the genre thing is a symptom of conditions in general in society where there are now extreme divisions between people that didn't exist before. Politics, sports, various demographics. Each box not just represents a choice or preference but sometimes a religion. With all the things that go with a religion. I have always strongly believed in broad music appreciation. Maybe partially from being a musician but I know to separate my personal tastes from technical evaluations of music. To me a band that "sucks" is a band which unintentionally plays out of tune or out of time and without any music fundamentals of any kind. Admittedly I struggle with it sometimes when I see someone like John Cage who does a "musical piece" which consists of him sitting at a piano doing absolutely nothing on a sidewalk in New York City. I WANT to say "that's not music" when I know I shouldn't.
Some people really do treat genres as religion. Thing is yes people who say "metalcore with clean vocals ruins it for me" are entitled to their opinion, but do I respect that opinion? I can't say that I do. I think it's ridiculous, short sited and doesn't represent music appreciation IMO. More like some weird desire to sound more like an expert and superior in something than everyone around them. "you have to believe what I believe or you're inferior" which is really no different than political arguments you see or arguments over sports teams. So I don't buy it's about music at all.
Also good point about the artists. Fans whine when every album is the same and then when a band does something different they "sold out" or some other ridiculous nonsense. It is a box and if the band tries to break out of the box it's a sin. The whole "sellout" thing is another pet peeve of my mind but I've gone on long enough.
🤦♂️
@@evacody1249 Not an argument and the least intellectual reply you could have posted but whatever.
Last week I bought a recent album of Freedom Call. I only had their very first album so far. And they haven't changed.
They are still Power Metal, with all the cheesy lyrics.
And at the same time what they do is sometimes called "Happy Metal", and with good reason. I don't know any Heavy Metal band that has as uplifting songs as them.
So two genres? Well, both. And I don't care. If it describes what they do, I am fine with it. If a genre description keeps me away from buying an album I do not like, then I am also fine with it. I don't care how many genres there are, as long as they help me find they stuff I like!
I've never understood gatekeeping; for any form of art, especially metal.
My father introduced me to a wide range of Metal. Thru the 90's into the early 2000's, my dad made art for underground to large bands bands in metal and other genres... like Misfits, Testament, Tori Amos, Sevendust, GG Allen ( my dad's art was tattooed on the top of his head -- wild!), ICP, Provack, Bobaflex, Mushroom Head, Drowning Pool, Alice Cooper, and honestly -- the list goes on. So, I have neeeeever understood gatekeeping because it's all music to me. Metal and all of it's sub-genres have been JUST metal for me all these years later. Even with Djent and Progressive and so on.... all just metal.
i remember alex hellid from entombed said in response to the band being called "death n roll" that it was "corny but i cant change how someone feels about music they like" which has made me realize arguments or anything like that w music isnt worth it.
It never used to that way when I was growing up
Whenever a metal or hard rock show came to town, you saw a lot of the same people
Not sure when it changed