Uncovering The TRUTH To Drummers Using Kick Tracks
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Recently, Stray From The Path drummer Craig Reynolds went on a Twitter rant about drummers that are actually faking some of their playing live, and using backing tracks for their kick drums... Sounds wild, but is there any truth to this? I did some research, and the answer may surprise you!
00:00 Intro / Topic Info
02:12 Craig Reynolds' Accusations
06:19 The Opinion Of Other Touring Professionals
07:48 Ola Englund Says He's Seen It
09:35 The Bands That Are Using Kick Tracks
12:52 My Opinion / Outro
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#craigreynolds #kicktracks #roadiereactions #tankthetech
UPDATE:
After hearing from Nik Nocturnal regarding my comment about him, I have to correct myself...
Dude does not sacrifice puppies to Satan for his CZcams subs.
It's goats. He sacrifices goats to Satan for his CZcams subs.
My bad, Nik (don't sacrifice me to Satan for your CZcams subs).
😂😂🤣🤣😂😂
The Rock music scene reminds me of the Open Source software community (of which I am a part). EVERYBODY is watching everybody, so deception is extremely discouraged, just automatically
Weeeelll, you are the GOAT, after all….
So like does he send the goats to Mohan by mail, or does he hand deliver them?
It’s not as insidious as a growing and recent history of k pop idols sacrificing themselves for the industry
I remember seeing Fleshgod back in 2017 where Francesco Paoli used bassdrum tracks, because of a broken foot. And as a drummer my self, i was quite bummed about it. But the fact that he went on stage with crutches, before the intro and told the crowd that he was extremly sorry, But he had to use tracks, otherwise they were forced to cancel the tour. It really gave me a ton af respect for him. A man that respects his fans so much, that he comes out and straight up tells us whats up and why! It was an amazing show! Under those circumstances, i think its perfectly acceptable to use tracks. Because we all know how insanely expensive it is to cancel tours!
I would love to see them again, now with Eugene on drums!
Oh yeah things like this would be fine in extenuating circumstances. A broken foot is a fine reason to use backing kick tracks. Nobody wants to see a tour cancelled because of something like this.
Asking Alexandria have just cancelled a tour because their drummer broke his foot. A real shame for everyone involved.
I saw Fleshgod with Francesco without an injury and my man is a machine gun.
Yeah. Thats fine. I did a full US tour with fleshgod and his doublebass is a real as it gets.
@@danhalen2990 I don't doubt that.
This is amazing and shows integrity to the fans and to the band. It shows humility and humanity. It's not a shame to be honest. And I think this is the main reason Craig is complaining about it, because in the situation that Ola described - whoever the band, or rather, their producer is - they just went on sweeping the humanity under the rug and went on with the show as if nothing happened.
To continue the Tank's football analogy, even though I'm not a fan of the sport, but it shows character when a player despite an injury powers on and gives the best they can in this vulnerable moment for the team and the fans. And if they are unable to play, they stand in front of the crowd and show "sorry guys, it is what it is, someone else has to step in for the moment, but I'm here for you and with you, and I will be back with vengeance when I recover".
This does happen in the pop world. I worked with a drummer who was set to go on tour with a major pop group and he backed out at the last minute because they told him that for his first tour with them his drums would essentially be for show, they would be completely dampened and the mics wouldnt be on. He would still have to learn the actual parts and play them to sufficiently mime them, but none of his actual drumming would be what the audience heard. He showed me the contract that had it all laid out. I was astonished.
That is pretty astonishing indeed. Don't blame him at all for not wanting to partake in such superfluous flummery...would've done the same thing.
That wild ... is this a blending of dance club and live cultures?
Akin to dance club pop with live visuals? wtf?
I've been around live work since the 70's, been FOH since the 80's.
It's certainly a shame, but not unheard of.
I've seen replacement tracking happen on lead vocal of one of the biggest rock artists. Although I worked the event, it was for the venue, it wasn't sound.
I'd be curious to know the reason, elaborate dance cues maybe? Who knows.
One acoustic element is PA LF contamination.
It's a lazy way to solve all the drum mics being contaminated with huge amounts of energy! ... but a savvy FOH with the right tools can do just fine.
Well executed PAs can steer LF where it's needed and keep it away from where it's not.
Disappointing to hear.
Rehearsals solve this?
@@CapraObscura Also, none of the fans are there to see anything but Taylor herself. Hell, we're lucky she has integrity enough to even bring a band on tour, because no one in the audience would care if it was just her singing to a backing track and playing the guitar/piano...
Can confirm - I've done two tours as a session bass player this year with two different Persian popstar bands - both shows had backing tracks for the kick.
Snare, cymbals, hats, toms were live. As mentioned above, it's often largely for technical reasons eg having music videos synced to the show, as well as other harmonic/cue tracks in play, eg BV harmonies or pads FOH, and cues in ear. Other reasons are ofc simply needing a giant kick for dance music, which is very hard to recreate from an actual kick drum without otherwise using triggers.
Artists are Sahar and Donya - both giant artists in the Persian world. See if you can spot some of the other musicians miming in the clips too... First time I ever toured with an air guitarist lmao 😂😂😂 honestly kinda a confronting experience once I realised what was happening!
@@CapraObscura Millions of dollars at stake - per show? Bet your ass.
Full disclosure...I've been playing for decades, and I'm OLD (Woodstock #1 was almost my first concert). I grew up in an era when no one expected or wanted perfection. Music was imperfect because it was human. Recordings and live shows were full of mistakes, which was part of the magic. All we expected was that bands and players would go out and leave it all on the stage. Recordings and live shows were just a snapshot of a moment in time, and the ability to improvise was a skill you had to have. I've slowly come around to SOME backing tracks to fill in for parts that can't be recreated live due to the absence of a player/instrument. Bass drum triggers are a decision regarding tone and presence - got it. But prerecorded parts for a player on stage who can't execute the part that Protools snapped to the grid in the studio (if this is truly happening)...NFW! People paid money to see you perform live. They already have the CD and they could have saved the ticket cost if your intent was to duplicate and deceive. If you're not training as a fighter, don't get in the ring/octagon. If you can't play the part, stop pretending you can. Be honest. Be real. This is one of the many reasons people have devalued music in recent years and treat it as a commodity. Stop killing the art. Learn your instrument, practice, and execute. PLAY THE PART!
P.S. - I love your channel. Having survived years of touring your insight, advice, and knowledge base are solid. Subscribed!
Totally agree.
I agree on this devaluing music. No wonder I see so many copy-pasted bands on the local touring circuit.
I'm also old and I agree. I've been a musician and sound engineer for decades too and I've also done some tours as a guitar tech. I've seen the transition to the editing world where bands had an album that sounded too good to be true and it usually was. What I don't understand is why people want live music to sound like an album in the first place. If I pay to see a show, I want to hear the mistakes and the flaws. It makes it a totally different experience. I've seen bands live that couldn't replicate their album if it could save their lives, but their shows have still been great. Some bands make up their lack of musicianship with some great theatrics or charisma.
Years ago my father and I were in Epcot at Disney World and it turned out Edgar Winter was playing. Upon watching them play Frankenstein, we found out it was being done by 2 drummers trading licks. My dad and I played it on 1 kit, and we could never figure out how the drummer made it work. We got 99% of it, but the issue was that the rack toms were different sizes, so that's how they got so many different tones.
@@Dstinct indeed! Look at the Zappa bands where there were 2 drummers and a full percussionist. The variety of sounds and tones were incredible.
The Ghost Inside's drummer lost a whole damn leg. His father engineered him a thing that he can use his "stub" (for lack of better word) to hit the kick. They were on hiatus for awhile because of it. He's still going strong and i love his drumming style.
They’re the Def Lepard of hardcore music
his recovery was impressive. I don't like their music but even I followed that.
Residual Limb is the medically correct term. That said, all the amputees that I worked with pretty much called it a stump.
Love the ghost inside. That was crazy.
This is the first comment I've ever seen talking about this band, I met the singer at a Magic the gathering tournament. Listened to them ever since, really cool dude.
I once saw a Deathcore band named after a certain As I Lay Dying song use tracked kicks in a 100 cap venue. However, the drummer had a broken left foot and canceling the tour would have cost them tens of thousands.
A case like that is the only acceptable application of such tracks in my opinion.
In a situation like this I think they should let the audience know what's up. Simply to not feed these backing track accusations when the use is totally acceptable.
Luka is a beast. I've met him a few times yeah when he broke his foot he couldn't play the kick and has said this on multiple podcasts and interviews. But he has always apart from that tour played his kick parts. Newer WD drums on the albums are all programming. But I have seen them recently live and having met Luka multiple times and spoke. Filmed sets for them and have watched from side side stage. He plays his parts. Yeah now they use a digital trigger not a bass drum. But he is still playing it.
Agreed.., not to mention the crew, concert hall staff.., etc.
If you aint playing live, I don't want to go to watch you pantomime! Ill just listen. Hats off the Craig! Fuck fake musicians!
@@joeastin9149 for the life of me I can't figre out who tis is
This is going on all over the music industry....with more than just the drums.
Isn’t that the whole feud with Mick Mars and Motley Crue? Mick claimed that almost everything was tracking, including Tommy’s drums, except his guitar playing. Would be interesting to see that lawsuit go to discovery phase.
@@JoshuaPlaysMusic if You are going to listen to a backing tracks...You may as well sit with friends, and listen to the album. There was a time if You couldn't do it live ....You just didn't do it.
I work as a stage hand in the music industry an this comment is very true. It's alot of bands and its not just drums.
@@joeshoe6184 I know I've seen it.👍
Just look at the Jenner's
Craig is a fucking treasure, his energy is needed in the industry
*creg
@robinthebobin6537 Why didn't you correct this dude, then? It's apparently spelled wrong, in his video description. Not talking shit, either. Just genuinely curious.
@@robinthebobin6537Actually, you’re full of shit. It is Craig. Unless dude doesn’t even know how to spell his own name. I thought it seemed weird (my man here appears to be reasonably intelligent/type to do his homework on shit) that he wouldn’t be aware of how he spells his name. What do they call the male version of a Karen? Anyway, you must be one of them. Who gives a good fuck, anyway. Fkn 🤡
@@rferguson3 Sorry it's a weird in joke don't worry😂. Basically how the American pronounciation of Craig is "Creg", and because Craig Reynolds spends most of his time around American people he jokes about it lol
I noticed with Cattle Decap that Dave is not using a track because there are some sloppy hits. That shows he is a legit drummer because even if their music is very fast, they don't use tricks to sound perfect live. They are old school Death / Grind metal and would rather make mistakes than sound fake.
Best way to be happy to see people appreciate that
Just saw them live and can confirm
He don’t fuck around!!
tbh Lorna shore. I always judged the sloppy kicks but now I'm thinking the dude slays and doesn't use a track.
@@celecoxibnonsteroidal5659same, the slop has been there the whole time and I feel like it’s intentional to show us that they aren’t trying to fuck around but that they gonna continue to get better and grind it out. You get the same thing from cattle it isn’t perfect but damnit it’s good
I (a deathcore drummer) often visit and play at concerts with high speed drumming. What i often notice, is other drummers playing easier parts live than on the studio version. That counts for both handplaying and feetplaying. But talking to them, especially younger drummers, about this often shows how in studio playing they build dreams they want to reach, with playing less on stage being a part of their journey of becoming better. But id rather watch not perfect drummers on their rise, than popular drummers caling themself perfect while hiding their humanity and not even trying to grow into what they build in studio. You made a good and honest video, but the possibility of fake drumming in "idolizable" bands kinda makes me angry now.
I'm no longer in a band but I played with a (very) small deathcore band for a while. I can kind of see both sides to this. When you're tracking in the studio, you want to make something great that people will enjoy. If you're still working on improving your double kick skills, is it better to put something bland and simple you know you can play on the album? Or is it ok to track something you aren't quite capable of playing live yet that will improve the product? And if you go with option 2, is it better for the fans to hear you play a simplified version live, or are you letting them down after they bought the ticket by playing something less than expected? I have my opinions on this but I don't think it's 100% black and white as to what's right and wrong here
I remember years ago when As I Lay Dying was first getting big, I saw them at a festival and when they played “94 Hours” I was so stoked to see Jordan do that super fast double bass part in the middle of the song. Well, he didn’t. He played half speed with it. At the time I was super bummed, but knowing what I know now, I get it. He either couldn’t do it at the time (which he definitely can now cause I’ve seen it), or was tired, injured, or something. And this is something I’ve seen a lot over the years, so solid point to bring up.
If the Drummer" Self Combusts" Just keep an extra Bloak around .
@@TankTheTech when I was still in a band what we did was we’d record the song in a pretty straight forward way but live we would add stuff that wasn’t in the recording, drum fills, guitar runs, pinch harmonics etc that added a little more flair to the live show. Kind of like how Killswitch does their live set. So you could say our live set was more complex than the album version.
However, I’m not surprised by the idea that some bands use backing tracks for drums live, especially in todays metal scene with so many bands having their guitarists write the drum parts with drum sims and the drummer coming in after everything is done to record live drums section by section as written by their guitarists. I totally get writing slightly above your skill level in the studio, but if you’re going to do that, you should practice what you’ve written to the point to where you can play it consistently BEFORE you go on tour or play it live. But that’s just my opinion
Makes total sense. In the studio you don't have to nail it in one take, you can do shit you mess up sometimes as long as you get one good take. Live on stage it's better to play easier parts you know you can play for certain.
Opened for a band that was fairly popular at the time. Heard their backing tracks in headphones during their set and it sounded like the album with boosted vocals and percussion but everything was in there. It was nuts. One night their laptop crashed and they were gonna cancel but I talked them into it by convincing them they didn't need it. They needed it.
Great job! 😆
Name the band
name the band or you're just full of shit
Naaaaame
Who was it tho?
So, as a drummer who played for 20+ years back in the day and stopped playing in 2009. I played heavy metal and thrash with a lot of heavy double bass. Playing drums is brutal on the body. I can't imagine drummers playing so hard every single night, or even every other night. One of my favorite bands is Monochromatic Black, with a phenomenal drummer, Eddie DeCesare.
I recently went to see the Dream Sonic tour (Devin Townsend, Animals as Leaders, Dream Theater) and I can't remember who the very first opening band was (Edit: it was Lorna Shore). The drums were insane. The double bass playing was INSANE. I went around to the side to see if I could see his feet moving. He was pumping his feet pretty hard (yeah, I'm familiar with double strokes and all that and can play pretty fast myself). But it was pretty unreal sounding, so much that it got my attention.
Anyway... I've noticed some pretty unreal playing these days and have wondered about this myself. I would NOT want drum tracks under my playing. I would rather play slower but tastier beats I can handle in live situations. Playing fast isn't everything.
There is footage of Motley Crue having the whole drums on a backing track, and Mick Mars has been basically saying that a lot of what you hear on their shows is fake.
I was watching a monitor mix video of Mick from some performance and Nicki Six is very clearly not playing bass while bass is being played in the arena. I bet most of these guys are just faking it.
That was only the counting in of the hi hats that came from the track.
Is this about the video where we hear a hi hat count in before Tommy actually plays?
My problem with people using that video as evidence is that after the count in, he’s clearly playing the drums! He’s slightly out of time because he rushes to the kit, then starts playing in time again. That’s the only video I ever see people cite as evidence.
My other question is what else exactly is being faked in their shows? Because “the entire show being faked” doesn’t wholly add up to me. Backing vocals I can see being pre-recorded, but considering all the meme videos there are of Vince’s bad singing that’s clearly not being faked. We know Mick’s playing his parts, and Tommy is considered one of rock’s best drummers, and aside from the count in video I haven’t seen any other proof that he’s faking live drums. That just leaves Nikki, which… yeah I could see the backing tracks argument being about him, but there’s not much evidence on that either.
I’m not a hardcore Motley Crue stan, but I have so many questions about that whole situation from how Mick Mars was treated, to the allegations that their entire show is faked. It seems like all it takes is for one person to cry out “backing tracks” and then old rock boomers freak out about shows being “fake!”
@@anotheryoutube4635 It's a damn shame that Vince was the only one with the integrity to let everyone hear how shite he is.
Crue is pretty bad live too
This is 100% true.
I asked Mike Montomgery of IWABO, after a show, if he has a kick track for some of their songs that have insane double kick parts.
He was very hesitant to admit it, but he did confirm that LOTS of drummers use tracks live.
Nooooooo not Mike :(
Or, he felt he got caught by you and then tried to minimize his offense by dragging everyone else down.
i mix monitors on festival stages all the time... a vast majority of big name bands cannot function in live scenerios without multiple backing tracks. they are listening to these tracks in their in-ear monitor system during the performance. a big part of soundcheck is more for them to get the tracks mixed with the mics and instruments in their ears so they can actually play properly, usually more time spent on monitors than testing for the PA out front. there could be anywhere between 8 to 12 tracks in a band's patch list. various instruments, drums, backing vocals, and even lead vox. most importantly is the click and cue tracks that keep their timing and tempo locked in with each other, as well as giving them a count in for each song and lets them know where they are within the structure each the song. Its standard procedure for live music these days. I personally feel it kills the rawness of a live concert and makes the show come off as being robotic, sucking the life out of the entire performance. most people would argue its more important to be perfectly in time and sound exactly like the record. i find it jarring to hear vocal parts that aren't coming from any human source on stage, along with instruments you know aren't actually being played. I think its just kinda uninteresting to go see a band play along with their album on stage, but it's just what bands do these days, and it's been that way for quite awhile. 🤷🏻♂️
Olas story makes me instantly think of Dimmu Borgir. Saw them live over a decade ago and they can´t seem to find a drummer that can actually play their songs live since Nick Barker left them. Plus they just strike me as a band that would do something so performative
That's the band I was trying to remember but I thought also maybe Cradle Of Filth?
@@Beau1990 Naah, think of the band what ever you want, but Marthus is a kick-ass drummer
Yeah Craig Reynolds himself said he also thought Ola was talking about Dimmu Borgir and that it was due to the change in drummers, as the timeframe links up to that
saw Akerocke in 2004 and I swear the drummer didn't even have kick drums, and yet there was clearly kicks being played. maybe it was all triggers but I was still like wtf?!
@@Beau1990hahah also a missing Nick Barker band problem.
The thing is, for people who don't play instruments or sing, music is just something that comes out of a speaker. If you don't know how hard it is to learn how to play, it's really hard to truly appriciate the talent of others.
Facts
works both ways, non musicians have a harder time realizing what is possible and what is not.
for example all the people that say infant annihilators drummer is nuts when in fact it is all programmed and never played live, compared to Flo Mounier it is obvious to see who the real drummer is.
There's plenty of non-musicians who know and appreciate a real live show.
Im sure Lars does not do this xD
Lars was the first person I thought of. LOL
Hahahahahaha
as i can tell from a metallica- concert in 2019 lars definitely didn‘t use it. let me say it that way: the drums weren‘t always on point 😅
He's actually easily confirmed legit. Too many mistakes.
True. Lars sounds like shit live. He may be a sub par drummer, but at least a honest one.
I remember when Eloy broken his right leg and couldn't play doubles. Sepultura got a replacement for the tour but Eloy learnt the songs he was playing only using his left and without double kicks, still sounded pretty cool.
But eloy is a god on the drums .... not everybody is ;)
He was using toms to make up for the missing leg …
I remember seeing sepultura at rock city on chaos tour and the pressure thumping my chest from Igor's double bass drums was mental, any one who has been to rock city knows it's kind of wider than it is deeper,so easy to get to the front few rows, hence the sound waves or whatever the proper name for them is coming off his double bass could be felt,I think barring injury to drummer this has to be a no no,flat out cheating.
Hey there! I’m a drummer myself and used to work as a backliner for a medium sized Reggae Festival over here in Germany - and I actually saw that happen. I believe, the band in question was Asian Dub Foundation. The drummer would only hit the 1 on the kick, but there was a full blown Drum‘n‘Bass beat coming out of the P.A…. I remember thinking: „huh, that’s funny… he‘s kinda cheating! Then again, he‘s f-ing on point.“ So, I actually ended up being impressed :D
Believe it, after you do a few festival runs you will be shocked at who is doing this crap now. Backing tracks are one thing, but play the main parts and instruments live. The whole idea of a live show is to let your fans see you play the studio stuff live in real time.
Ive done more than a few festival runs, my guy.
The industrial metal band is absolutely Fear Factory. People didn't believe Ray was playing those parts 30 years ago, so I can see whomever their drummer is now being accused of it, too.
I saw them in Australia in the mid to late 00s and I’m certain there was a drum track. I thought it at the time, still believe it to be true.
There’s plenty of video of him playing those parts.
@@mattcook3801Fear Factory and Korn. I always suspected Soul of a New Machine relied on beat tracks. Not to mention Burton uses vocal tracks live.
@@CodeNameV13 The kick tracks on the Soul album are so bad and all over the place i literally can't believe you think they're fake. The fact that his kick drum work is SO bad on that album, is why they absolutely DID fake it on subsequent albums, and most likely every live show too...
lol as soon as he said an industrial metal band this came to mind.
In Finland it was just revealed that we have been secretly faking all the sounds in skiing competitions on live TV for like the past 40 years, because it's basically impossible to put hundreds of mics all over the track. So, everytime you see someone fall on the track, what you're actually hearing is the audio engineer himself falling in snow when they were recording all their sound effects. Some Japanise dudes came to Finland back in the day, becuse they were so impressed how we can make skiing sound so good on TV. Their faces when the truth was revealed to them. Some guy just playing skiing sounds on a keyboard for many hours straight. 🤣
❤
As a rock drummer (bad one) of many decades, I once tried to join an electronic genre band. We wanted to infuse real drums, but the DJ/Laptop member, wanted kick tracks. I understood that the genre demanded a 4 on the floor kick approach, but I ended up being unable to comply. Kick drum is an integral part of my actual playing. It really isnt enjoyable when its taken from me. I guess the band didnt want a drummer who handles the time and click track, they wanted a session musician.
I've told the story before, but let me summerize: A Japanese band on a German convention was not able to bring their real drummer, so we had a mini disc with all his tracks. The singer was on half playback, in part due to the groups theatrics, but it was noticed, when he accidentily threw the mic across the stage. The early 2000s were wild...
I'd say drum tracks playing for a drummer not there is 100 times more acceptable than a drummer there and half their stuff on playback. Haha
@@TankTheTech Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but them not being able to bring their "real" drummer makes me think they did have one there.
My band once had a gig with drums and some other stuff from backing tracks. We were playing a friends birthday party in a small bar. There had been gigs at the place before, but the owner had changed and told us we have to play quiet and no drums allowed. We managed to pull a good but very weird show. Imagine a quiet thrash metal show 😂
Not sure why it would be an issue to play without a drummer altogether: I *ROUTINELY* see grindcore bands do exactly this: just a bunch of broke guys that can't really travel with a drum kit and look like they hitchhiked across the world to even get there usually play full shows without a drummer and the bands being grindcore is not like they can replace for someone who can play 1-2 hours of non-stop blast beats so: Just a drum track while 2 guys on stage play along with their parts and nobody minds.
But we should start with a smaller step: some drumers should show up to a gig with visible drum pad instead of a kick drum AND SNARE for blast beats or even a full on electric kid just so the audience knows: Yes this is not acoustic drums, this are clearly samples so even that part is not as frowned upon
@@perlundgren7797 it's not uncommon for bureaucratic bullshit like visas to get in the way of a musician (or their techs) from another country being able to go perform. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that's what was going on, not that the band just didn't have a drummer. Otherwise why would he say it the way he did? He would have just said they don't have a drummer...
Just to let you know... I like videos like these. You use your profession and knowledge to educate people. I listen to heavy music for as long I can remember. But when I see your videos I learn new things and look at music differently. I'm here for it🙌
Your channel is awesome man. Everyone can yell you are such a fan. I can think of no other channel like this. You are doing great things here.
Can confirm - I've done two tours as a session bass player this year with two different Persian popstar bands - both shows had backing tracks for the kick.
Snare, cymbals, hats, toms were live. As mentioned in other comments, it's often largely for technical reasons eg having music videos synced to the show, as well as other harmonic/cue tracks in play, eg BV harmonies or pads FOH, and cues in ear. Other reasons are ofc simply needing a giant kick for dance music, which is very hard to recreate from an actual kick drum without otherwise using triggers.
Artists are Sahar and Donya - both giant artists in the Persian world. See if you can spot some of the other musicians miming in the clips too... First time I ever toured with an air guitarist lmao 😂😂😂 honestly kinda a confronting experience once I realised what was happening during rehearsals!
I used to play on an electric kit, and I wasn't good enough to play the kick pattern for Pantera's "Becoming". So, I programmed one measure of the kick pattern to a single trigger stroke. I never played this live because I was too afraid of getting called out on it, but if I was able to set that up at 17yrs. old, I'm sure other drummers out there are taking that to the next level.
I remember in the 90s people accusing Vinnie of doing it on Becoming, or at least questioning him. If you go back though, you'll see nights where he was a bit sloppy with it, and nights at the end of 200 date tours where he was clearly ragged and intentionally dropping some strokes from the pattern, so I never questioned him.
@@phillbr51yeah, Vinnie used triggers, but I believe it was only for certain tones for certain tracks. I don't think he was filling anything in. His kick was insanely loud.
@@crankfastle8138 Rex claimed Vince never triggered. I think if anything there was some enhancement done on the board. Point being, every note was played. I'd make the analogy of what a lot of singers do with Vocal accelerators or guitar players with compressors. It adds a little extra umph when playing a humungous venue. It also helps the rest of the band to have loud, crisp kick pattern playing.
There's a video of Vinnie recording 'Becoming'
Rick Beato has also brought up the idea that the listeners don't care when things like this happen. He has talked about different ways to basically fake things in a live performance and the audience either not knowing or worse, knowing but not caring.
this is absolutely true and was brought to my attention already in 2012 after tracking drums together with a sound engineer who was also doing live sound for swedish band In Flames … he expressed it that ”the drummer would some times just not ’feel like playing kicks tonight’ so they would have the kicks 100% on back track”. totally insane … take tomas haake for example, guy is 51 and still playing ”bleed” for several nights in a row for extended periods of time. i dont want to hear anything about how its hard for young drummers to keep up with touring
They don’t play Bleed live anymore unfortunately, but I definitely get your point!
@@jrjr.429 Because Tomas deserves a rest of this song. But its good, if he cannot play it anymore, its better than some cheating.
@@jrjr.429 Oh well that's just not true, it's been in all of their setlists including the tour I'm about to see them on this month.
No way!! I love in flames. :(
The thing that worries me the most about this topic is not the bands that are currently doing it, but the fact that this conversation has opened the flood gates for so many young drummers to consider this as an option. I hope this does not spawn a generation of mediocre drummers who just realized they can do this and will stop practicing double bass.
Nah, kids are gonna keep double bass the ego is too strong to simply hide it
You an drum teacher? Rent tight?
I mean who cares?
I recently saw Currents in Houston and was lucky enough to do a Q&A with the band. Someone asked the band how they feel about using tracks and the band’s response was interesting. They all said tracks were necessary to play some things such as the 17 billion synth layers and such, plus one of their guitarists was gone because he unfortunately is going through Chemo.
When the drummer answered this question tho it was super cool because he basically said “it’s funny how my job has changed over the years because I now feel like I’m competing with computers. It sucks because I realize a lot of bands have sub par drummers because of their use of programming so that sucks, but it has also made me and some of my drummer friends way better at our craft because we have to compete with machines”
Music has become such a joke.
@@anotheryoutube4635 mmkay
@@MarkNuuuuuutt Pretty soon you wont even be able to tell if they're actually playing or not until the computer shits out midsong and we're at Milly Vanilly and ELO all over again.
@@anotheryoutube4635 which is why bands that do play live…like currents…. Are so good…. Bc if the computer stops working there’s still music ;-;
@@MarkNuuuuuutt Bro, you literally typed up this whole thing about how that band said it was necessary to have all that shit going or else it wouldnt sound the same, but now you're saying if the computer stops it'd be just as good of a live show?
So do they need the stuff they can't play and a metronome clicking away, or are they actually capable of playing their own music without training wheels?
I don't mind tracks if they are not being used for actual instruments being played on stage. If they are in addition to what the band is playing live, that's fine. That being said, it does seem in music geared towards younger people, like pop, nobody seems to care.
Read through the comments here. In a few years a bunch of these same people commenting are going to be up in arms wondering why robots moving around on stage not even remotely close to mimicking the instruments are getting all the "gigs" and no one supports live music anymore.
They're all making arguments for why it's okay. They're all asking for their own demise.
@@anotheryoutube4635 Rock/metal is dying, and this garbage just feeds into it, I'd rather rock hard in my own basement than be a fleshy robot onstage since nobody seems to really care anyway
I saw it live with a band that is pretty big and "legendary" in my country (Country: Chile, Band: Los Jaivas). Not all the parts were backup, but some of the more complex fills were all pre-recorded.
Only situation I’ve ever ran into was back in 2011 my band played a show with a band that only had drum tracks because their drummer was sick and they didn’t want to cancel their tour. They were amazing.
Back when I use to tour for a small unsigned metalcore band, there was one band we played with often that did exactly this. However, it was because their drummer I was told got into an accident and his foot was still recovering so they tracked their kicks until he was able to play again.
In that specific instance, I can see why bands would do that until a member is recovered.
Find another drummer to cover then.
@@anotheryoutube4635 considering they were unsigned that might be hard to get one at that drummers skill level and knows their not well known songs just yet I’d imagine
@@terogates1 unsigned bands know other local musicians like any other band does.
@@anotheryoutube4635 Fill in drummers are not easy to find.
As long as they are open about the injury and solution to go on stage, who cares.
I appreciate the overall neutrality of this video and your idea to fact-check what you could and present general information for the public to make their observations and conclusion. With concert season ramping up many fans can be on the lookout for such patterns from their favorite artist. Great informational video!
I used to do electronic percussion in a band. They had some effected drum parts on a live playback track with synths and other things we didn't have the stage crew to perform live. But the drums in that mix were flattened, and we cranked the volume and bass on my kit. And I played added flair not on the track that made it OBVIOUS it was me performing. I heard a recording someone did of one of the shows and it actually sounded great. I have heard of bands faking a lot of live performance stuff. Even saw a singer lipsync hardcore music, which was wild. I know there are plenty of people who, if they were in my situation, they might have just set up a dead kit and mimed the whole thing. But I just can't do that sh!t. In this modern era, with the ease of digital high quality recordings, unless you're playing a show for pro audio professionals.. It's really up to the individual and they're more than likely never going to get caught if they do it.
Actually, I played 3 gigs with kicks recorded on backing tracks and played only with my hands... I sprained my ankle a few days before those gigs. We didn't cancel, we found a solution and I played only with my hands while kicks were playback. It was funny to go onthe stage with crutches and than my legs were just relaxing there, hahaha \m/\m/
As a drummer, one of the things I watch is whether the resonant heads are "shimmering". Without some mechanical intervention, that effect would be difficult to replicate and is a telltale sign that the beaters are in use.
100%. But I think what is being suggested is that the drummers are still actually playing their kicks, but the signal from them isn't sent to the house and the backtracks are. So you could see them playing, but the sound is actually the perfect kick tracks.
@@TankTheTech True, but if they're going through the effort to "play" the kicks, why not just have them be live?
I get that many people go to a show for the "show" aspect. But to me, the musicianship is paramount. Unless, as you said, they're injured or something, I expect live playing. 🤷♂️
Because they can play easier parts without looking sus
@@sean_b_drummer because they don’t have to worry about it being clean and nailing every note.
Because they cant play what they wrote on the record.
Because they cant hold a blastbeat that long.
Tons of personal reasons
I used to do sound for a lot of small venues and outdoor events. I have had one band do this, and it was a folk band. Didn't even have complex drum parts or anything, they just had a busted kick and very cleverly had backing tracks of every instrument prepared just in case. Made my job easier since I didn't have to run to a shop, buy a new chain for their pedal, and make a repair. I really appreciated their professionalism.
I could also see the confusion that could arise from people maybe witnessing a sound check, or some other test with pre-recorded kick tracks. If I work with a band more than once, I use recordings for sound check rather than having the musicians on stage. It's a common practice, indeed.
Its like paying for a 5 star meal and finding out your desert came from the near by store.
Really interesting video ! My point is, if you record something you can play 1 time out of 10, then assume that you'll probably fail it live or simplify it live but don't use pre-recorded kicks. The feeling of a real kick (even sloppy) is better than anything that was pre-recorded.
Now from what you say and what I saw in the comments, some drummers got injured and aren't able to deliver 100% of their performance live and in that case, that's okay. Still better than cancelling the show.
I saw Lorna Shore in september but Austin Archey had to stay home to recover because of his back, so the freaking bassist got behind the drums, and even if they probably pre-recorded drums for that tour, that's okay cause they found a solution instead of cancelling the show so mad respect for that
concerning the Ola Englund situation: He said it was in 2003/2004: virtual soundchecks for complex bands like a black/deathmetal band were not really a thing back then. Keep in mind this was before cubase 4/protools 6. No big successful digital/hybrid consoles were around with that capability and all the bigger bands were still using analog mixing desks because they were sonically superior to the digital alternatives.
Great point to bring up, honestly. And now that you mention it, I’ve only seen virtual Soundcheck with mostly bigger or legacy acts.
@@TankTheTech I beg to differ 😉 even I am doing virtual soundchecks sometimes and my desk even has a built in VS feature to switch the input routing automatically. That technique is getting pretty normal these days. regarding the Ola story I agree though.
@@Leo_Blac he didn't say it isn't happening, he only talked about what he's seen himself - there's nothing to disagree with.
@@Leo_Blac You told another person what they've seen in their life, while you weren't there? Okay..
@@1IGG holy shit dude I apparently used a figure of speech the wrong way in a language that is not my native language. And you guys come crawling out of your holes to shit on me... go get a life 🤦♂️
I just saw the Triumph US 83 concert for the first time. No lights, no explosions (not that I'm against that stuff), no BS. It was pure skill featuring great drumming (the drummer sang many of the songs), bass, keyboards, and virtuoso guitar playing (this guy also sang many of the songs). Just 3 guys on a stage making amazing live music for a huge crowd! It was one of the most exciting live shows I had ever seen. The opening "Allied Forces" gave me chills. I really miss those days.
I watched that concert last week! Triumph sounded (sound quality) excellent, musical skills are excellent, vocals perfect
Triumph and Judas Priest sounded the best on metal day
And no in ear monitors
@@nowayinhell91 Never thought about that. Great shout!
@@nowayinhell91no MIDI interface to DAW. I consider that partially cheating. The thing is that you have to know that software inside and out just to get the shot to work. That’s like a college level physics course, almost. Like, pro tools is very jargon laden. You could be days just deciphering all the jargon in the manual
And yes, in ear monitors. To me, those are okay for these bands that have been around and they’re all at the age of retirement and their ears shot from monitor feedback and having to blast them to drown out in unbalanced mix in order to hear yourself
You must have seen Van Halen that evening. I like how Triumph’s bass player looked like Forest Gump while he was rUnNiNg… Alex Van Halen had just started using trigger pads taped to his kick drum heads at around that time. He also micd acoustically. The triggered signal was sent to those radial horn tweeters inside his kick drums, which were micd , then that signal sent to the board with the acoustic signal. The two signals were combined making one complete sound
That was how Alex got that “machine gun” effect whenever he played fast double bass. It was the triggers being fed out those horns
As a drum tech in the 80's I witnessed it with a multi-platinum selling band, but in those days it was on 1" reel-to-reel. The day that the monitor engineer loaded one of the tapes backwards was a real (reel?) eye opener. Kick patterns for a few songs were DEFINITELY deployed. From that day forward it was my duty to learn and play the drum parts that were on tape from underneath the drum riser. Good times were had and NOBODY really cared!
Then 5.1 entered and changed the game.alot or shady shit is only done in the studio.its a unspoken rule if you are a live playing band with some integrity left in your soul as a musician and song writer.yes nice guys finish last is probable answer but before the 90's bands and producers tecs ect. Had to work extremely hard because of lack of technology.a breakthrough was made in 1989 in think I could be off by a couple years but that changed the game in the recording room and on stage.you what prize was for the music business?grudge music were you could write a shitty song in a hours time. The process of making a song before 5.1 was analog and it was a long process.5.1 cut time in half for making music that sounded 100 times better.
Danny Carey doesn't.
I don't think Neil Peart from Rush ever faked anything. RIP professor.
There are lots of video out there that shows how he kicked. Dude was that good he was ok with people filming his footwork.
Actually Rush was running tracks in the 80s, they were ahead of the game as rock bands go lmao. At tht time only a few pop stars did it it wasn't too common
@@unknownkingdomthey only did it on select tracks,specifically the ones Neil played electronic drums on, such as The Weapon,for example .
Neil absolutely never faked kick tracks. He did use a click track on select songs as davidbailey6397 notes.
I admittedly have used backing tracks a few times because of injury. I've hurt my foot or my ankle to the point where I was forced to use backing tracks for a show or two. It's super dark-side drumming, but sometimes is necessary for the injury aspect of playing drums live
Craig mentioned this in a video he posted. He was fine with these instances seeing as it’s basically that or no show.
@@toyotaecw Screw both of you. 20 years ago real bands and musicians would have done what they'd done for decades, get a replacement drummer for a few weeks to fill in. You're both frauds. Enjoy pressing play!!!
A local industrial style band actually shared a drummer with me. The industrial band had everything except voice in the backing tracks. Drums, keyboard, guitar, and bass. My drummer left them because of this, as at that point why have a band on stage aside from visuals.
your videos keeep getting better and better and more informative
I know tracks exist, and I know it’s down to the pressure on the band to reliably deliver a studio-quality performance, live, night after night, week after week, month after month.
My problem with the whole practice is that a band can’t surprise me live. They’re JUST going to replicate the album live, and I don’t need to go anywhere to hear that. I have the album at home, on my phone, on my laptop… and I don’t have to pay Ticketmaster fees.
Once a band is “slaved” to the stems the album producer gives them, they have to hit every cue. They can’t shake up the arrangement at all. No acoustic intro, no giving the lead guitarist another 12 bars, no adding an outro solo, unless they do extensive pre-production before the tour, and load the new arrangement into Pro Tools or Ableton before the get on the bus. Then THAT’LL be set in stone, and the set of cues they have to hit, night after night.
I definitely wouldn’t need to follow that band for a run of shows, knowing that the next night’s show is going to be note-for-note identical to the one I just saw.
These points are all pretty much the crux of the biscuit as far as the downside of gratuitous use of studio production/tracks in live performances... an issue that needs more discussion is the Ticketmaster thing- not seeing how currently astronomical ticket prices reflect the reduction in performance value being foisted on these audiences. Smells a bit grifty-
Back in the day, it was an accomplishment to be able to see a band that sounded studio quality. My first concert was Queensryche's Building Empires tour (Featuring effin Suicidal Tendencies no less \m/.) where they played the whole Mindcrime album. It was early/mid 90's. They weren't lip syncing. They brought out the keyboardist for the extra stuff that would be relegated to backing tracks these days. They brought out the female vocalist for the songs she was needed. And it was epic. It set a standard that most shows don't live up to this very day. All 100% "live" (you know, because one can argue about adding a key/synth player who could just trigger loops and would anyone really know it) and studio quality. They were recording for the Home Video though, so maybe there was extra love not normally applied to their average set. But it was amazing and I expect to hear a band be either close to studio quality, or completely nothing like it. I love the Smashing Pumpkins live shows, but they in no way or shape aim to capture or replicate that quality, where I think a lot of bands do, leading to all of the additions via tech available that we encounter at most rock/metal shows today.
I've never heard a band where I felt like they were just playing the record and faking it. I have seem some bands where I wish they would have because they suck out loud live. A couple of them couldn't even keep in time with each other even with the use of click tracks.
Yes I totally agree .. it’s like having a clock track and not being able to be spontaneous in a live setting which is what makes a live version of songs more memorable and enjoyable; also the reason why I listen to album and live versions of a song to really see what the band comes up with live and for most , has amazing results - Anthony
I'm with you, I love those spontaneous moments that no longer exist
Bands that are intelligent can still do a lot of that even with backing tracks. They just have to be smart to know how
As a live sound engineer I can tell you this DOES happen.
bands have been playing to 'click tracks' and 'key tracks' for years. so easy to slip some kicks in there.
@@katoffeevhs9798 especially when theres some form of backing track used anyhow. If you've backing, you've got to sync to IT, not the drummer. May as well inject a kick in there, the drummer is a mere puppet at that point anyhow.
I’m also a live sound engineer and I know it happens. It’s rare but not as rare as it should be…
Lorna Shore and Slaughter to Prevail absolutely play everything live, those drummers are complete monsters.
@CharlesSeraphDrums - Same with Iron Maiden.
@@JamminClemmonsnicko is original for life!
@@Bruno-vb1qz - I hear ya. - Two thumbs-up to you, sir!
Sorry dude… but dude from Lorna shore absolutely does use “cheating “ shit when he plays… that’s straight from the mouth of a sound engineer who’s been involved in a few of their albums
@@MIKEx2112source?
There’s a livestream video of Sleeping with Sirens playing at warped tour back in the day where their guitars and bass are all backtracked and are played on the livestream when testing before the show.
I've been drumming for almost 20 years and for me it's usually pretty obvious when a drummer I'm watching/listening to makes a small mistake like hitting the rim/hardware of their kit or not having perfectly timed kicks. I haven't been to a show in about 5 years, but I can pretty confidently say none of the bands I've seen live had faked drumming. I always focus on the drums in songs (even when I try not to) and I would definitely notice if something was too perfect.
Bands I've seen live include Lamb of God, Dying Fetus, Lorna Shore (before Ramos), The Faceless, Veil of Maya, Born of Osiris, The Acacia Strain, Meshuggah, and many more. If none of them had to fake it its kinda weird that anyone else would have to. Then again, if a drummer is having an off day on a long tour I guess I wouldn't mind if they had to have a backing track for that set, but it would be uncool if they had to do that for every live performance.
Tank, great vid! I’m a professional drummer and I can see the desire for kick tracks in some situations. Sometimes I think the kick patterns are so intricate and fast on the recordings, that live the pattern doesn’t translate in a large venue, therefore the kick in a track could help it translate better through the PA. Maybe the drummer doesn’t play said patterns with enough velocity to push through the mics and through the PA adequately, triggers would be a better option in this scenario I’d think. Then there is the fatigue issue that some drummers may experience trying to replicate these patterns night after night on a big tour, so the kick in a track may be the answer for delivering the desired level of show. I wouldn’t want to do,it, but I’m not in these situations so I can’t say what I would do really.
I recently just subbed to Craig Reynold's channel. He's a cool dude and has great interviews with bands! \m/
I definitely know one worldwide arena band that has this issue BIG TIME. And they are not a Metal band
And it’s not just kick drums it’s snares and toms too .
The FOH engineer for this band was my bands FOH back in the 90s we know each other very very well . He invited my family to see the band soundcheck . It genuinely sounded amazing . While standing at FOH he gave me his cans and said listen to this and flipped the monitor solos across the board while they where playing . And along with the usual Backing tracks stuff like loops and samples extra Backing vocals and effects there literally was Kicks track a snares track and toms track for every song in the set .
Now the live kit is mixed in there with the overheads and hats taking prevalence but the track Shells where mixed considerably louder than the live mics .
That’s the worst one I’ve ever seen . But to be fair the band is a very technical sounding and a lot of contrast between parts in songs not just song to song. The show sounded amazing and it’s also a band that plays everything exactly the same every single night.
I really don’t have a problem with it to be fair . At that level it becomes almost a theatre production on many levels . And singers have been doing it for decades now .
My band has always used Samples and loops and we play along to them as many band do these days. Mid 90s it was the way for many artists and bands because the change in production techniques . To build on the argument being made here tho in my experience as both a touring musician and a record producer and mixer and especially in the metal arena if the fans knew how most of there favourite records were made they would be even less happy 🤣🤣😂. There a more metal albums with fully programmed drums than probably any other genre .
And some pretty big selling records that had the entire kits replaced or even completely programmed before the record even started.
I think it’s the world we live in now . Smoke and mirrors folks
Hi Tank, as a non mucical human being I’m always blown away how interesting you can talk about things I never believed I wanted to know. But suddenly, after watching your videos I’m sure: I really wanted to know e.g. which kind of gear a band is using. You also are doing a great job here. You want to know the truth and you don’t shy away from questioning your experiences and your own opinion in the honesty of parts of the music industry. Respect. Questioning the own opinion is not very popular these days. All the best for you and your family.
The ONLY tour we've played, we didn't have a drummer, but rather a projector in their place on stage. That being said, I would ask, is this similarly frowned upon as synth backtracks, layered vocals, group chants, metronome based sub drops, etc. How much is too much? What about DJ's? Do metal heads have a different expectation of their performers? This is all in the spirit of discussion, but thank you for taking the time to make this video, Tank. :)
As a drummer that has used backing tracks I've never used tracked kick drum hits. But, it's the protools that make this happen. Some of these drummers program their parts in the studio, and can't do it live..so just run backing tracks that include kick drum parts. It's totally believable, super hard foot work takes a lot of practice..
So why not to work harder on foot technique? It's not a fault of protools, it's drummer's. If drummer is creative enough, he'll find a way to make a pattern more simple to play but it still will fit, or he just could improve his foot
@rick8961 it's not protools "fault", but protools makes it easy to cheat. Yes, practice and you won't need to program.
@@cartersmopargarage440 yeah, practice is everything
i´m a drummer .... and a very bad one. We practice in-ear completely over a mix down ... and use pro-tools to record. But even i would not dare to fake parts of the kit .... sorry. If i can´t play it, i change the part so i can.
I was in an excellent band in the 80s that played along with backing tracks live. A couple years ago we got back together, and after a long discussion, we decided to not use any backing tracks at all. We did slightly stripped down versions of the songs totally live. The music might’ve come out slightly rough around the edges but overall I believe now we made the right choice and the audience got a real performance.
Backing tracks are fine in situations like a song that has strings or keys/electronics, but this situation is entirely different than simply using a backing track. Entirely replacing the kick with a pre-recorded track is essentially the same as a vocalist lip-syncing...
@@awesomeaxel1 : yes, agreed.
Much respect man. That’s a tough call but you did the right thing. 🤘🍺
thats all I want is a band on a stage actually playing their songs. No tech holding it together.
Truth is no-one cares... when it matters it doesn't matter and anyone thinking it matters doesn't matter...
Around 10-12 years ago a friend of mine got a gig drumming for an up and coming country artist (supporting slot for a major artist). He was nervous that he hadn’t memorized all of the songs, but relieved when he learned this would be happening on the tour they were going on. This was happening that long ago. I was shocked when he told me, disturbed that it’s becoming more accepted.
Was only the kick drum on a track? Seems like it would be hard to have the rest of the kit on a track, unless he was just doing drumset karaoke every night!
Tank I already knew you were a man of class, but then I put this video on and see an Assemble the Chariots hoodie right off the bat, well done
Consumer: I don't care what the sausage was made of.
Chef: Good thing cause we made this one with shit.
The band I played in 12 years ago flew from Ireland to Florida to record an album with someone who at the time was a bit of a ‘god tier’ producer to us. He said, without naming bands, that there was a handful of bands the he recorded between 2010-2012 that when he was making stems for them to use for live backing tracks whether it was 808 drops or orchestral/synth parts, kick drum was put in the tracks too so the band would be tighter live but kick drum was mic’d for the aesthetic. Sometimes same with guitar tracks too.
*_Rick Allen has one arm and doesn’t use backing tracks._*
*_Let that sink in._*
Before I moved I was friends with a fairly well known drummer for TBDM, Shannon. We had this conversation before and the band that shocked him the most for being so far off from their tracks live was Carnifex.
he's such a beast, i literally just commented on another video about how much i miss him in TBDM.
Yes used a backing track of the crashing Organ part of close to the edge live in 1972. They would play along to the tape (sometimes very poorly)
I feel the same way tank . If a drummer is injured with a foot or has ankle problems I don't see any problem with using back tracking . Until they are healed and healthy.
*_Nah._*
I agree with you. Backing tracks are OK if a drummer is injured temporarily, but if he cannot recover enough to play his entire kit live, then he needs to step down so that a replacement drummer who is able to play the entire kit can take his place.
Another acceptable solution would be to simplify the drumming so that the original drummer would be able to play.
Nope. Get a fill in. At what point is that acceptable? If the singer loses his voice it's ok to play tracks? Whole band gets injured so just mime?
Got a point. As when Rick Allen from def Leppard lost his arm. They got a stand in . Then he learned to do arm parts with his feet, but the band never gave up on him
If the audience doesn't notice, then it doesn't matter; that's just reality, whether anyone likes it or not. Backing tracks are obviously far from new.
And, given the state of the music industry, I'd rather the band not waste the money on paying a fill in.
_pragmatism_
Only time I have ever heard of this happening was on accident. Full backing tracks where kick was left on accidentally. Mind you this was a church environment where I was on FOH. They immediately turned it off.
It ain't cheating if you cheat for Jesus :P.
Backing tracks don't get produced and made unless they're going to be used though...
@@anotheryoutube4635 yeah, but you'd be surprised at the lack of tech skill/tech understanding/musicianship in church. Believe me, some people get into the backing track thing having no idea what they're doing, thinking it's just a band in a box, not even understanding that they need a click track/DAW to play with the tracks, or even how to play to a click. I know several cases myself. In OP's case, it very easily could have been a complete song that was bought with everything on separate tracks, and you can mute what you don't want for that specific sunday. If you don't have a drummer that week, you unmute the drums. If you don't have a bassist, you unmute the bass. Perhaps that sunday they had a drummer, but forgot to mute the kick track and it came through with the drummer.
@AGPMandavel is correct in my experience. I play at church and our main sound guy especially is really dialed in and having tracks muted or mixed down. Some songs come with tons of stems and it’d be easy to miss one if you rush, though. We basically just use them for extra pad sounds and ear candy stuff, which I think is more to make singers feel comfortable than anything.
@AGPMandavel That is exactly what happened. As you probably know, a lot of churches have rotating musicians. Usually the Music Director on stage runs the stems. He just forgot that day apparently.
Tank, I've been to several shows, both metal, rock, pop etc where, being a drummer myself, noticed the front bass drum heads werent moving at all, but the patterns were complicated. I knew. Im not shocked.
I think when kicks are a staple part of the sound, it's super important for them to be there strong and heard. I'd guess trying to eq and compress a live kick sound as good as what studio is would be a pain. Like an extra hour every night of sound check to get it sounding close to the record. And with all the different PA systems, I think it's a safer way to make it tight like the record. Diggin' the channel, Tank. Keep it rocked.
I'm not a musician, by any stretch, but wouldn't that be something you'd use triggers for? Don't they allow you to adjust the sound to studio quality output?
@@niko7903 Indeed. But triggers are just another thing that can get stolen or just not work.. at least at some surprise moment to ruin the whole jam. Some dudes get so excited playing live, that the tempo is higher than normal, causing shred riffs on guitar to be super fast and harder to play. Making the guitars look bad and get mad. Sub woofers prefer a mastered bass tone to be their most flattering presentation of the lows, also making prerecorded most reliable. I wanna see a band play.. not Motley Crue it.
@@niko7903you are correct. And because metal kicks are important, but people don't want to tune their kit, even in post, there is a very common solution used even on records-mic the pedal and use the beater noise not the hole noise. Makes the kick thin and clicky, but it's audible. Why bother to tune your instrument or do your job as a sound person when you can just play track-even the slack option is too much effort.
Making the kicks cut through the mix is kind of the sound guy's entire job. If a band has a sound guy who can't do that and thinks throwing the kicks onto a track is the correct solution that band needs a new sound guy. People have been playing metal in live venus for decades this is a solved issue and "put it on the track" is a laughable solution to something that isn't a problem at all
My guy Ola really just said „I’m not gonna give names but, Behemoth“
Everyone I saw commenting on this thought it was Dimmu. Haha
@@TankTheTechright forget about them
Which is BS... Inferno is legit
@@TankTheTech I thought so too, looking at my other comment 😀
imperfections on a live set are amazing, hope I'm not being fooled by performers faking it by putting imperfections on the backing tracks themselves
I've suspected that as well.... Some fuck ups seem too "obvious"
Once (almost 10 years ago) saw Bullet For My Valentine because I wanted some of that nostalgia.
Casually enjoying ourselves, and suddenly the solo to Waking The Demon starts.
It was the EXACT same phrasing and the EXACT sound of the one that's on CD.
Me and my friend looked at each other and I think we just left.
I believe it because of who it is but modeling is really good so it's still possible to sound like the cd live.
Not being told the bands being discussed is pain. Can't even go look into it ourselves.
Gotta protect his industry connections probably doesn't wanna step on toes. This is a side hustle for the dude
It makes total sense if it’s a really important part like a breakdown that you want to have layered instruments (which can maybe include kick drum)… or if you have auxiliary percussion parts (think tambourine or a marching snare part)… but with exception of triggers, I am there to watch music be played live. Otherwise, I might as well just listen to the record.
The band i was in several years ago did this. We had around 60 shows booked over the span of a several months, we had just finished recording the last of the tracks needed for our album and were doing these shows to promote it ahead of its release . 3 shows in and our drummer, piss drunk after a show jumps off the loading doc at the venue missing the back of the trailer and landing leaning forward like you see those downhill skiers fly thru the air. Broke both ankles. What now. We had 2 days till the next show and we called a few drummers we knew in other bands and they had shows booked. Hated to do it but used the favor card and called a couple of the larger well known bands we had gotten to know by this point thru the years and im not going to say what drummer gave us the idea to use a backing track but he said he had to do it once for a few months when he had knee surgery and with our drummer in pretty bad shape nobody should hold it against us. We called the studio that had the master tracks for all of our songs and explained to them what happened and asked if they could send us just the kick drum tracks unquantized each song as recorded from the trigger output before the tigger head unit. Hour later got an email with all the raw triggered kick singnal tracks. Set up a laptop stand next to the drummer to select the song and that signal went into his rack box beside him where the teigger unit was. His highhat was a fancy hydrolic of what ever where the pdeal can go anywhere and rigged up a way to mount it sideways next to his knee. He didn't use it all too much anyway but we continued on ward. We didnt try to hide it tho. We took delight in mking fun of him to the crowd. Saying crap bout him on his laptop looking at porn back there. Lol. We told the crown second song into every show what happened in the off chace the laptop malfunctioned so we didnt look bad. Laptop never failed. Trigger head unit would randomly shut down. Turns out the signal output of the laptop was just at the level of the input signal max cut off in the head unit. After a few shows a smarter than us sound engineer hooked us up with the knoledge of the proper way to output the laptop signal into the trigger unit. You dont hook it up to the input that says trigger. You use the line in input jack. Lmfao.
As a drummer (not a metal drummer though), I honestly think it could be more difficult to play certain things with the kick replaced with a backing track. As a DJ... a lot of big DJs have pre-recorded sets for huge festivals, to accommodate for time constraints on their set. So I can see both sides of this argument.
As a musician and music lover... As long as it sounds good, who cares? One can choose to get super picky about whether a drummer is doing singles or heel-toe and call the latter "cheating" or whatever, but that kind of elitism kills things. Let music be music and enjoy it for what it is.
Idk if someone already said that but
The band that used kick tracks when their drummer got injured was clear as a drop of water and said it in an instagram post ASAP as the injury occurred that they would play the kick tracks in order to continue the tour. Everyone was ok with that and no one blamed them
I love that you make more videos about the industry. Dont listen to the people that want so stop you. This is super interessting from the consumer standpoint.
The fuck a dog analogy is spot on.
You’ve never seen anyone fuck a dog because of the damage it would do to their image and livelihood
You’ve never witnessed a drummer doing this because they know the damage it would do to their credibility and livelihood
Interesting. When I first clicked on this I thought it was talking about triggers, which are fine by me. I think it is ok if it is due to an injury or health, but not an all the time thing. I hadn't heard of this before. To me back tracks are for symphonic, or other audio elements, that clearly aren't an instrument. Great video Tank!
I played in a band where everything was sequentially produced including the drums. I had to play over the drum tracks. At first I was open to it because I thought the director would eventually remove the drum tracks. It wasn’t removed so I quit the band
So I had a similar situation happen, I went to see a show of a big band and they were using kempers and snaps of their rigs and yes a lot of their tracks are going to be sampled. However the guitarist stopped playing and the riff (which was a clean part) was still going and he started to “play it” and the dynamic didn’t get full it stayed the same. So I wonder if maybe the guitar track was more quiet than the sample track? Idk but it made me question of guitarist are now doing this too
After reading an interview from Joey Jordison after the Iowa sessions. He mentioned how difficult it was to play thy shit live in one take. I could see them using a backing kick track
Or, maybe that's why Jay got the boot: He demanded he'd use his own. Boots. So Slipknot going forward _will_ be (all) drum tracks 😅
Going to shows for almost 20 years, had this scenario a hand full of times. One drummer was open about that, he came on stage with crutches and apoligized, like you said, thats fine.
With the other times i saw and head that, it felt like a fraud for me personaly, but I guess people have their resons for that
Main I can't believe nick does that!! Time to cancel him (this is a joke)
We live in a time where these brackets are necessary. 🥲
Nick better be worried about Mr Pickles then... 😂
What do you mean, a joke!! Nik sacrificing puppies is serious business and he should issue an apology video 😤😤😤
(This is also a joke)
Cancel him in Minecraft of course
Too late, Operation Cancel Nik after I Sleep With Him First is already underway.
The crazy thing is, I can absolutely see this nowadays , but at the same time can’t imagine anyone doing this because it would call into question their entire drumming skills.
I could totally see it. If music was only about watching the best musicians perform with the highest levels of technical and musical prowess, you'd see more jazz musicians selling out festivals and stadiums. Tours and festivals are HUGE productions with lots of people on payroll, both by the band and the festival, and they need to make sure the show must go on.
I go see a band live to see them perform the material, well... LIVE! Not to see a huge production...
It would be great if you could make a video of how many bands have programmed drums on their albums. Thanks!
I personally care. If I pay money to watch a band live, I wanna watch the band actually playing live. Mistakes and all. Unless there is an injury as you said, I wouldn't like bands using backing tracks for the instruments they are suppose to play.
Yeah same. It's all about expectations. If I'm watching a pop concert, I expect the music to be on a backing track but the vocals to be live (if tbhey have a live band even better, but I'm okay with there not being one). For a band I expect both the music and vocals to be live.
I used to hang out with a band that 100% used backing tracks on the kick live. The drummer told me his feet just weren't fast enough to play the parts. Now, this was almost 20 years ago. Not sure about what's going on these days.
Not long ago I saw a band called Garzi, and the singer had most of his vocals tracked and was making no attempt to hide it. I think it was just part of their performance bc he was actually singing along too. You could hear the difference in his live voice and tracked voice (and tbh the live voice was kinda better). They put on a great show, but it was weird to see a singer up there not singing for like half of each of his songs. Somehow I still feel more okay with that than tracking the kicks and I think it’s because it was out in the open. He wasn’t pretending to sing along, he was just jamming along and singing his parts as if there was two singers.
I can see this as being a thing especially with the older bands. It happens with vocalists and guitarists so why not with drums. It is HUGE in the CCM world.
I particularly prefer, in injury cases, when the band changes the drummer for a while, it's even better for the main drummer's health. Sepultura did this with Eloy when he got injured, and Bruno the guy who replaced him did a fantastic job. but I also know that isn't the easiest choice, so it depends.. sorry About the English I did my best 😅
greetings from Brazil ...
I realize that back then it would’ve been impossible to track drums (although prob couldn’t hear em anyway) but if I’d gone to see The Beatles when they replaced Ringo with Jimmy Nicols for a time, I def would’ve been disappointed. 😂Then again, Ringo was prob too sick to even sit up there. And certainly not good for his continued health. So yeah, good point.
as a drummer, the kick is integral to keeping your body in time with the song so to just not play the kick at all sounds way more difficult than just simplifying the kick parts to play live. i know this has happened with drummers that were injured but that was a temporary thing. i have a hard time believing that competent touring drummers are doing this regularly.
That's sort of what I was thinking, it would be very tough not to be playing the kick that's being heard.
They could play it, but not mic the kick drum. That could be sampled in. Or you could play single kick and add a sample track with double bass.
They wouldn’t just not play the kick drum, they still attempt to play the parts but the mics aren’t on
I was thinking the same. Taking your dominant (or each) leg out of the equation truly seems like it would absolutely make your feeling of time, nowhere to be found. I would think it would be way more challenging to play like this. Like the majority, if a drummer in a touring band had an injury, I would say, "I get it, no problem with me."
@@krawfish82 they still play the kick drum it’s just sloppy and not as good as the recorded drums, or they play half time for the faster parts