Part 3: Railroad Signals, reading and meanings. Diverging and Limited speeds, to and at signals
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- This video is archived, but left here for your convenience. The video has been remastered without music and is available here: • Part 3: Railroad Signa...
In this video, we add two new speeds to the mix and how they are displayed on the signals. We then incorporate them into the system and introduce approaching signals.
Parts 1 and 2 made sense. Part 3 melted my brain. If part 4 is like part 3, I will start digging my grave now...
After watching your excellent series of videos, I've decided that I don't wish to be an engineer on Canadian Pacific after all.
Requirements are grade 12 only, anyone can learn this stuff. The killer is the work life balance and irregular shifts and time away from home.
@@hkrause6565 well and also that even though widebody jet pilots get all the respect for skill, driving a modern intermodal hotshot at 60+ MPH average speed is something requiring nerves of steel for far longer than an airline pilot, who is really ever only put to the test a few minutes per flight. Those tests occur repeatedly over hours for train crews.
And the consequences for failure can be equally dire--a high-speed train derailment can potentially kill hundreds to thousands of people if it happens in the wrong place with the wrong cargo.
I‘m German and my mind is blown. Up until after the reunification we didn’t even have signals including the next one ahead in the west. They were strictly divided in pre-signals and main signals (which can be right next to each other though), and for a major part of the rail network, that’s still the case. We still use mechanical signals that work by pulling actual strings with levers today :D And I don’t know of any signal that shows what’s going on two signals ahead, but we don’t have those mega long trains, 90% of all trains are passenger trains.
Moin! In Germany (even before the Reunification) you have also one signaling system which integrates the pre-signaling with the main-signaling.
de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sv-Signalsystem
And then you have the modern “Ks-system” which provides also both the pre- and main-signaling. It’s a quite cheap solution. So inspirating for other countries.
Thank you!!!! I am in Winnipeg right now, taking my CN CONDUCTORS course. and although I have just finished my first week, the signals test already has me stressed out. These Videos have helped me HUGE in understanding the second set (advance clear to stop..etc).I will definitely watch these over and over until i understand the logic completely. THANKS AGAIN!!!!
Best of luck to ya! I know how stressful those tests and the courses are.
I'm off to sunny Winnipeg next month. I have watched these videos, and, gone over the cror pdf a few times. I am still shitting myself. I hope it all becomes clearer once I am there, and, immersed in it.
*watches first two vids*
Me:“yea, makes sense”
*watches third vid*
Me:*gurgling noises*
i can't add an lol emoticon.
Congratulations Ian on a making a clear and concise video. Thank You.
Thanks! I’m a Swiss train driver and this is far from what I work with every day, we have shorter distances between signals but our signals can’t advance speed to a further signal than to the next one.
We do have combination of colors on the panels but in a different way though
Thanks for sharing!
So I'm from Russia, and we have little bit more different signal system than that. We have the three lights heads, which has a same three signals - green is procced with the extended speed (maximum speed, that written in technology regulations documents of the road or station), yellow is the same medium speed prepare to stop, and red is stop signal. There's different types of lights according their location and purpose. For example the lights there's in the station has a one three lights head and one two lights head to diverging or maneuvers by the switcher across the park. Because for diverging you supposed to be used a two yellow lights, or two yellow one flashing, and for maneuver you supposed to be used a special lights whith the blue and lunar-white lenses.
Also we have a short stage that's used in the high-speed, passenger and suburban moving.
Privjet. Spasibo balshoje. ;-) I have travelled from Moscow to Vladivostok three years ago. That was great. You have so beautiful country!
Hi Ian,
Have very much thanks please for your intruduction into the canadian signal rules.
Me I do studying for myself some different and heritage signal rules of german kingdoms at the big German National State of 1871 under regency of the the prussion king as Kaiser Wilhelm 1rst and Kaiser (Ceasar) for Germany.
At the County of Mecklenburg it gave from 1878 on a different semaphore signal system that used up to 7 Semaphore arms to indicate different signal situations as outer home signal for behind the signal diverging train routes. This Signal system had been used until 1892 when a more modern system had been used of what in parts is still valid up today.
Since 1949 both german State Railroads went different ways and after their re-union in 1990 the loco engineers needed to learn both systems, like signalmen, too.
Older signal rules aren't from interest after their updating periods of time, but all different and still existing types of Semaphore Signals are shown in the modern rule books, too.
At some high speed trains or higher speed loconotives a monitor shows the ahead signal positions of the signals as a help for the train engineer.
Our absolute block system is different to your system.
A train moves into a cleaf section than the sections behind the train are blocked by red signal, one block behind of it by yellow light as proced section and there behind a green section.
If a train engineer will be seeing onro a repeater Signal has a yellow and green light that means the next coming Signal has the same light in yellow over green as proceed that the next coming signal will be a stop signal.
Train engineers do drive their trains by the aspects if the repeater and/or distant signals.
Distant signals showing two yellow light means that the following home signal is red.
Two green light in diagonal up position of the distant signal means a coming green home signal.
Yellow and green home signals may be passed by reduced speed of 60 Km/h if lower speed will be allowed any white Number shows the max. allowed speed.
I was following it in the first two vids but I'm now lost.
The UK railway signalling system doesn't communicate speed limits as Canadian signals do. Speed limits are given as wayside speed limits boards placed to the left hand side of the track similar to what they are on public roads. All engineers are trained to the route they work on the subdivisions they travel on.
*@François Parent*
You're confusing two different concepts there. All trains operate at the slowest of all of the speed limits that apply to them. There can be many different types of speed limits in force at any given time.
Canada, like the UK, has permanent speed limits assigned to the tracks, and those are officially marked by signs.
Signals in general, and these signals, dictate _transient speed limits._ These are speed limits that change or vary by time or distance or situation. These are a second type of speed limit above and beyond the track speed limit that you're talking about. These are also a separate speed limit from the general subdivision speed limit (if one), cargo restrictions, weather restrictions, yard limits, etcetera.
Each of the speed limits do not affect the others. If a signal indication imposes a 30 MPH speed limit, then only another signal indication can remove it. If a temporary speed restriction imposes a 10 MPH speed limit, then all the _Clear_ signals in the world can't remove that.
Signals in the UK can impose speed limits. Approach Release signals are an example of this. It's just different from how it's done in the US and Canada.
This complicated system really makes me appreciate the way the Germans have done it. They put a electronic number display on signals, that tell you exactly how fast you can go at the current, or next signal.
Maniac3020
That's why I prefer cab signalling.
Also Swiss signalling, Dutch signalling, and many more. North american and Australian railroad companies now need to prolong their signal masts in order to be able to affix all the plates they need over time to fix the fix. And as kids we laughed at the elderly affixing too many tourist badges to their walking sticks, but not any longer...
de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ks-Signalsystem
I'm from Italy and apparently we are one of a few countries, along with Canada and Australia, and together with some US railroad, that make use of searchlight signals. I must admit that this third video confused me quite a lot, but nonetheless I found it really interesting to see how those same signals could be used in a way which is completely different from ours. We too use at most three stacked lights, but for us only the topmost could ever be red (default fail-safe position), whereas the two others could be only yellow, green, or dark (default fail-safe position: unless it's a LED, the lamp is always on but there is a black screen in front of it), if ever installed at all. Our aspects must always be read from top to bottom, and there must be no dark position in between. So for example color/dark/dark is fine, and color/color/dark is also fine, but dark/color/dark or color/dark/color are not! Red means stop, yellow means expect stop, green means proceed with no speed restrictions. Yellow over green means expect a slowdown to 30 km/h, or 60 km/h if they blink together , or 100 km/h if they blink alternatively. Red over something means slow down to the previously announced speed (there is a reminder panel tho: dark means 30 km/h, one horizontal line 60 km/h, two lines 100 km/h). So red alone means stop, red with something else below commands the announced slowdown and announces the next aspect: red over green means slow down and then expect clear, red over yellow means slow down and expect stop, red over yellow over green (the latter two blinking or not) means slow down and expect another slowdown. There are some special cases, for example for short braking distances, i.e. a blinking yellow announcing a steady yellow announcing a red, but they are somewhat rare. We have no dwarf signals except for shunting, but they are completely different: two horizontal white lights mean stop, two vertical white lights mean proceed. That's (almost) all... Bye! :)
Ian, I think you explained this very well. I am not a rail roader. Every set of rules has exceptions, as they do in law. You just have to memorize them.
Excellent, excellent videos, Ian! Thank you for making them- I think you just helped me ace my Locomotive Engineer exam!
Love this series. Finally someone who explains this so I can understand it!
One thing I can't figure out is one I've seen in my area. Green over red over green flash.....
That's an alternate version of clear to limited
6:44 It was about here that I finally gave in and thanked my lucky stars that I live in a country with far more intuitive, obvious, easy to read and to understand, and simpler, railway signals.
This video was enormously helpful. Thanks Ian!
All these people in the comments talking about how "insert country here"s signalling system is better than this. Yes it may be, but that is not very helpful when no one in there right mind would ever implement this system on a new railway line, I think it is a bit confusing as well, but I am determined to understand it!
Great video, and can't wait for the final one! I'm going to have to watch it a few times to take it all in. Hopefully I can remember it all if I want to work for CN, CP, or Cando/CEMR
A sign falling off or getting covered in snow would not change the speed we have to take that switch at. It's a diverging/limited speed location. Just because the sign falls off wouldn't make us have to take that switch slower. We'd simply report it and they would come and fix it. If it was covered in snow I wouldn't even report it because we already know that we're good for 25/45 on that light.
Of course, you'd have to know its a Diverging or Limited signal.
Nice job Ian!! looking forward to Part 4.
I was good #1, #2, and about 2/3 of #3.....then when I came to I was drooling and wondering what just happened.
I think the one 'fail safe' the canadian signalling system lacks, is the human factor.. A new driver I feel could be easily confused by the signals.. The british system is a lot clearer in that regard and still tells about the same amount of information I think
Even the German signalling system is simpler than this. lol
The British systems are all Route Signaling systems. The Canadian system is a Speed Signaling system. There's no way that a Route signaling system conveys as much or more information than a Speed signaling system.
The difference between the two is what happens when a train needs to change tracks. In the UK, multiple semaphores select from routes or a colourlight feather lights up to indicate a change of tracks, but the driver must know what speed is safe for the switch he is taking. In a Speed signaling system, every diverging movement has a safe speed prescribed by signal indication. The Canadian system also always prescribes a safe speed at the next (or second) signal. This is not something that any British system is able to do.
As much as I love US railways, I must admit the Russian/Eastern Block OSShD-based signalling systems are the best out there
daggertom1 smaller shorter trains may make a difference.
With the British system, there is a physical speed board with a diverge arrow for junctions indicating the speed limit. We change the line speed limit with a speedboard preceding the junction which will say X mph in the given direction rather than have the signal tell you your speed.
TL;DR for the next bit: The driver doesn't know why he is stopping, he just knows he has to stop the train.
We use a series of flashing yellows to notify the driver two to three signals prior to a diverge in some circumstances, and in other places the driver is given caution aspects which will pretty much bring the train to a stand before the last signal will clear, essentially forcing a driver down to a lower speed, known as approach release. The driver doesn't need to know _why_ something happens, all they know is they need to stop in X signals. They know the route inside out so should know how far the next signal is away. The driver will also have no reason under normal running to pass a red signal unless it has a "calling on" signal, which means "proceed with caution and prepare to stop at short notice for an obstruction", or unless specifically authorized by the signaler. TPWS has to be disabled to do this.
The simplicity of the system is why it's safe. All the driver knows is the route he is taking, his speed limit and his last and next signal aspect. Speed limits are clearly signed rather than having to guess what speed is required from the combination of lights, and reductions of speed have warnings.
If it were up to me, I would indicate the speed you are currently travelling at as Yellow, then the speed which you should be changing to as Green.
Here's how I would define some of the signals:
Slow to Medium = Red / Green / Yellow
Medium to Slow = Red / Yellow / Green
Flashing lights, DV plates, and L plates apply to the above signals to upgrade Slow Speed to Diverging Speed or Medium Speed to Limited Speed as usual.
Limited to Limited = Red / Flashing Green / Red
Limited to Clear = Green / flashing Yellow / Red
Medium to Medium = Red / Green / Red
Medium to Clear = Green / Yellow / Red
Diverging to Clear = Green / Red / flashing Yellow
Slow to Clear = Green / Red / Yellow
Also:
Red / Red / flashing Yellow = Diverging to Stop
Red / Red / Yellow = Slow to Stop
Red / Red / Lunar = Restricting
Yellow + (R), Yellow / Red + (R), Yellow / Lunar, Yellow / Lunar / Red, Yellow / Red / Lunar = Clear to Restricting (yellow top light is flashing = Advance Clear to Restricting)
Restricting = All red, and one of the lights is flashing red (doesn't matter which one)
Take/Leave Siding = Same as the white lights on modern British railway signals
Red + (A) = Stop and Proceed
Red (no [A] plate) = Stop (Absolute)
Thanks for the video! Very well done!
Great video , am learning a lot more here! Cant wait to see the next part. I have a manual for CSX signaling. I was wondering if every railroad uses different indications and stuff. Like if am running a BNSF train on BNSF trackage and I diverge on to CSX trackage , how would the rules change? Thanks
Ya, apparently it's a bit of a mess in the US because there's no standard. There's old grandfather systems here in Canada, but we do have an agreed upon convention, the CROR.
If you're bored, you can study a bunch of different railroads' signal rules on my website: signals.jovet.net/rules/index.html
There are many subtle patterns and practices that are used by different signaling systems.
@@ianjuby Great presentation, Ian! Would you recommend a formal CROR course which ends with exam and certification?
I know here on the prairies we have a couple good sayings since the lights are a ways apart and get washed out from the distance. One is if it can't be seen it must be green. Another is two piss holes in the snow must be clear to slow
The sign is everything in other words in this part. If you guys think THIS is complicated, you definitely wouldn't be happy w/PRR-style position light aspects! All aspects are the same color!😄
my brain hurts
And me!
Lots to take in...yes, but like he said that it is the combination of the lights that must be focused on...and what flashing lights are flashing, and what colour the lights are too...thus got to focus on what plates are on the posts....such as "A", "L", "R", and also how the lights are set up...such as the off set ones are controlled by the automated control...the stacked lights are controlled by the control people.
I'm understanding it well, you just need to follow the order. Light position determines speed, it also tells u what the next signal will be. The color of the light determines whether u stop or not :) this is important to me as I want to be a Melbourne train driver for metro trains when I am older. I might be a bartender also.
Are you a true foamer?
railroad education is the best way to go
Hi Ian. Thanks for this very informative series of videos. Are the lineside signals powered from a local source, and is the medthodology of control of an signal aspect done over a wire or by wireless? Obviously you are dealing with much greater distances in Canada compared to us in the UK.We are adopting Light Emitting Diode arrays to indicate the signal aspect now. This should effect a big power saving compared to filament lamps, and it is possible to obtain a four aspect display from just two lamp arrays.This, I believe, is achieved by addressing different clusters of LEDs in a lamp array, so you can, with one signal lamp head show red, yellow or green. Two lamp heads will allow for our four aspect colour light signal displays.Red-stop. Single yellow- caution, may be passed but expect the next signal to be red. Double yellow, may be passed and indicates that the signal ahead may display a single yellow. Green - line clear, proceed at line speed.Diverging routes are indicated by a cluster of white route indicator lamps which accompany the main signal.Kind regards.
Great series!!! You lost me at 5:59 though. Can you explain that in greater detail please?
As he said, just think of each of the three signal heads as indicating for specific speeds (High, Medium/Limited, and Slow/Diverging/Restricting). At the time you indicate, he starts getting into signals that indicate a speed reduction but not a stop will be required ahead. These use more than one signal head at a time _not_ being red. Yellow over Green, for example, indicates that the high-speed route would require a stop at the next signal, but that the Medium speed route is clear at that next signal. Since the signal rules are named according to the speed required at this signal and the following signal, this is called CLEAR TO MEDIUM. If the signal were Yellow over Flashing Green, then the "medium" speed gets upgraded to "limited" and the signal is called CLEAR TO LIMITED. Some signals may, instead of flashing the green, have a triangular "L" sign on them. If a signal has an L sign on it, then anytime you'd say "medium" you'd instead say "limited". Thus a Yellow over Green signal but _with an L sign_ is also CLEAR TO LIMITED. Does that help?
Hell! You would all be dead if I was the driver learning all this! :)
Oh dear. You forgot all about the difference between lunar, light blue, white, off-white, beige and grey signals, what you should do if in the signal is triangle or rectangle shaped, what the combination 'flashing-green, winking-red, startled-yellow' means, the divergence in meaning of limited vs. restricted vs. off-peak vs. weekend-only vs. occasional signals (in red, yellow, green, lunar, light blue, white, off-white, beige and grey; flashing or steady), and what to do if it's a full moon and/or the next solar eclipse coincides with the passage of Venus.
Other than that, pretty comprehensive, and a good overview of a not at all counterintuitive, needlessly complex system.
I really like these videos. I want to work for CP or CN eventually in the next 5-10 years after I finish university (I'm in high school now).
CN is hiring big time from 2015 to 2016. I just got hired on. They predict that they will be fully stocked by 2017
Southern Ontario Railfan I'll still be in school though. Is that for Ontario or nation wide?
Current outlook suggests it'll be nation wide. They will still hire a lot but not nearly as many as now. They're planning on hiring 5000 before 2017. After that, who knows
Hmm. Too bad CN doesn't have much of an operation in Windsor anymore.
Southern Ontario Railfan Hey, it's always been a dream of mine to be a conductor and I've noticed this hiring boom- though my optometrist mentioned in passing a couple years back that I have a slight red/green colour issue. I looked up the RAC Medical Rules and I was wondering if you have any p.o.v of getting past the colour tests, if you failed the standard Ishihara Test is that straight up game over or can you do this Lantern test?? I've never in my life experienced issues with green/red signals but most online ishihara tests I seem to fail.
These are a great well done series! For long trains, how do you know the full train has moved beyond a signal?
+ceMental We have a footage counter in the cab that measures the distance we've traveled, and we know the length of our train by the train journal. Mistakes happen though, and sometimes the counter is off, so we'll do little things like at a meet the other train will tell us how far in to the siding we are or they'll hit their counter right as they pass the nose of our train and we'll tell them right when the tail is clear so they know what footage it is according to their counter.
Ian Juby Thanks for the info! Great stuff!
We have a dwarf signal that is at the end of a spur, outside of a yard.
The example at 8:00 about bypassing using a siding at medium speed at both ends was confusing. The part that stumped me was the signal Red, Green, Green. The middle one makes sense for medium speed. But using the bottom green for medium at the end of the siding is where I got hung up. I thought bottom green is supposed to mean slow speed.
Please make another video showing us a bunch of signals and explain their definitions. Are college course uses these videos for class so congrats on that.
When I did train crew transport I see this all the time...now I am learning what they mean
Very informative. Just out of curiosity Are you a trainer for CN rail? Good explanation I've already started reading lights during my daily commute. I notice that the Light Rail, Subway or Intercity Systems tend to use the 2 head system. I notice this on the O-train and TTC.
+Ben III Nope, not a trainer for CN. Thought about it, but I really enjoy running the rails. I like to stick to that. I remember seeing some of the signals at the tunnel for the O-train, I think it was a lunar signal - but I think those signals have been there for a loooong time. So I don't know.
+David Schlotthauer A signal displaying Flashing Red over Red over Red is Union Pacific, BNSF, and CalTrain's way of giving the "Restricting" aspect. Same for 1 and 2 headed signals, a flashing red is resstricting. BNSF (maybe CalTrain too, I forget...) even has an "Approach Restricting" aspect, which is displayed as Yellow over Flashing Red. Hope I helped! :D
As Milepost 282 Productions pointed out, the signals are different for different railroads, sometimes even in the same area. The explanations of signals in this video only apply to Canada. Your TS2016 route should come with a guide showing what the signals mean. If you still need help, just ask.
13:22 I'm pretty sure that limited to restricting has the medium speed light yellow instead of green
Not sure if you’d know this, but what does a white signal mean? I live near a Canadian Pacific/Metra railroad near Chicago and from time to time i see a white signal on a 4 light signal. (Not four signals stacked but one “darth vader” signal with four lights)
Is there ever such thing as a advance medium to stop
Nope. It would be clear to medium, then the next signal would be medium to stop.
Ian Juby ok thanks
Thanks for sharing.
What if there was a solid green or yellow on the bottom of a double headed signal
I didn't cover those - I'm assuming you mean a tall mast signal. We actually had several of those on the Sioux Lookout and Winnipeg runs. It becomes the bottom two signal heads. So red on top and green on the bottom becomes slow to clear. Yellow on the bottom is restricting
Is it possible to have no red lights on a 3 headed signal
I'd have to double check the rules book, but I don't believe so.
Ian Juby ok thanks
Nice
Holy eff, it was making sense up until about a third of the way into this, then the designers just... idk... dropped acid or something. Let's use all the lights in all the colour combinations! So pretty...
All this just to save a few canbucks on specific advanced signals or actual diverge speed signs...
I can easily see now how drivers get confused and might end up approaching a speed restriction or even straight red light at too high a speed to successfully brake from, from misreading one of the more complicated arrangements. Suddenly our own system of "go at the speed limit, there isn't even a yellow light for _at least_ the next (two) section(s)" (green, on a three (four) aspect light), "go at the speed limit but prepare to slow, next signal is currently at caution" (double yellow), "slow to restricted speed, next signal is currently at danger" (single yellow) and "stop!" (red), with switch speeds other than the default being given on high-visibilty and retroreflective signs doesn't seem quite so primitive and decontented as all that. Though it *does* mean our maximum train lengths/weights are somewhat more limited as they need to be potentially able to brake from full speed to a halt within little more than a single block length (IE from where the caution signal is first seen, through to drawing level with the danger signal) and from caution speed to a halt within sight distance of the final signal...
mspenrice ask a Csx engineer to explain all 6 systems in their system, including the aspect system of the B&O, the Norac rules of ex-Conrail and the old Seaboard rules of the southern portion, that will get your head spinning.
Well exactly. It all smacks of uncontrolled over-refinement, of trying to splinter the possible displays into way too many potential combinations and convey too much information in a single burst or what can be readily understood instantly... when all you really need is "stop, slow, medium, fast" (and in the old days with slower trains, just "stop, slow, fast", or even "stop, go") for _immediate_ warnings or permissions on a set of changeable lights, and any _permanent_ restrictions for sharp bends, sidings, and going straight over / turning off at switches being communicated on a separate fixed sign.
What are most people familiar with, at least since about the 1930s? Tri-colour traffic lights, and speed limits written on signs. The UK aspect-light system I describe essentially copies that, and is very simple and straightforward. If there's a particular speed you need to keep at or below, it'll be a number on a sign, sufficiently ahead of the actual danger and, where necessary, with an arrow pointing in the direction it applies to.
The regular signal lights controlling each block give much more general and more rapidly understood instructions - proceed according to the posted limits (the same green as on a highway light), stop ahead of the lights (the same red as a highway light), and optionally one or two levels of "reduce speed now" (to certain well known maximums, or if the green light limit is already lower either slow to a fraction of said limit or at least be ready to make an immediate brake application to slow further or stop at the next signal) warnings on faster lines (the yellows, which are effectively the same "you may continue for now but there is a red coming up shortly" warning as for highway lights, just applying in terms of distance rather than time... which for a fast-moving train are much the same thing anyway).
Seeing as semaphore signals already had signal lights with moving coloured glass in front of them that communicated the same two or three basic instructions (and in some rare cases four, with a purple or lunar blue glass), alongside the reflective numeric signs, which is actually where the highway standards came from (rather than the rails copying _those_ ) it kinda makes me wonder how so many different, individually as well as mutually confusing standards developed. I guess maybe there was a problem of the signs being easy to miss, or hard to see at all on foggy/smoggy nights, maybe? A problem for which our answer was essentially mounting them high enough that they could be seen using a light projected from somewhere near the cab, learning the line you're running on before being let loose on it so you had half an idea of the restrictions anyway (harder on long US/Canadian runs I suppose), and slowing down in times of poor visibility because you were as likely to end up missing regular signals anyway.
Thing is, having a whole mess of coloured light signals, even ones that were carefully engineered to always be fail-safe so long as the drivers understood the decimated versions, doesn't seem any more or less reliable than just putting a footlight in front of every important speed sign as a backup for its reflectiveness, should there be low lying cloud or the locomotive's own light fail... as well as a similar backstop system as described here where switch direction is displayed on a directional-aspect semaphore or light signal, and the speed signs are all _permissive_ rather than _restrictive_ types... ie, if you haven't seen one, you assume the much lower minimum switch speed, and only go higher if there's a sign telling you that you can. (...which is again similar to at least some aspect of UK highway speed limits - if you're somewhere with street lighting, suggesting an urban area or at least somewhere that there might be significant enough numbers of pedestrians to justify permanent lights, you assume a 30mph limit unless otherwise signed).
It's all doable without this kind of crazy, arbitrary, ternary-logic memory game.
...that said, I did just realise that a deliberately somewhat cryptic light-based system where you assume the worst possible case in any instance of failure is quite secure against vandalism and/or deliberate interference, which could be quite important if you're running tracks through hundreds of miles of what can be rather sparsely populated and not that regularly patrolled wilderness, and running trains with cargoes that might be quite valuable but only easily liberated outside of the intended destination should the train happen to crash... the lights themselves are fairly substantial things that are hard to remove, especially against the clock and without leaving any kind of obvious trace that they used to be there (wheras warning signs can be much more easily uprooted, cut down, or simply turned sideways/backwards), sets that are more simply knocked out by cutting the power or smashing/shooting the lamps themselves remain fairly obvious and become "proceed, but at minimum speed with maximum caution" signs (much like broken highway lights legally become yield/give-way/4-way-stop signs), and anyone setting up a fake set to encourage drivers to run too fast through a dangerous section not only has to be able to produce something that looks authentic and run a surprising amount of power to them maybe over a long distance (or at least long enough to be able to hide a portable source), but also needs to understand the codes beyond a simple "green for go, yellow for caution, red for stop" level.
So it might be hard to learn, but possibly _that's the entire point._ Certainly, it would have made "the great train robbery" at least a _little_ harder to pull off, even thought that only involved stopping a train rather than derailing it.
Do the Canadian signal rules vary greatly from the US rules? Like for instance, UP or BNSF railways?
Canadian signal rules are SIMILAR to those used in US railroads east of Chicago, but names of indications are different; for example, "Clear-to-Stop" is usually called "Approach" in the US. Combinations of signals may have slightly different indications but the principles are the same in any case.
Out west, UP/BNSF uses route semantics for signaling rather than speed semantics. Because they operate in rural territories with highly variable terrain conditions, there's not a good way to represent speed conditions with color signals. Instead, signals are used to make train crews aware of route changes; that is, whether or not to expect that they will take turnouts or crossovers. Multi-head signals with different colors tell the crew they are about to take a turnout.
The combination tells them what to expect after the turnout--like red-over-yellow might mean "diverging approach", which means the crew should expect to stop at the next signal that allows them to get their entire train onto the other track. So the next signal might actually be yellow--"approach" or proceed expecting to stop at the next signal. Or it might be red. The crew will usually know what to expect because they are fully trained on their segment of the route.
Despite being mostly focused on route signaling, some UP/BNSF indications will alter the speed. For example, a lunar aspect or a flashing bottom red aspect means "proceed at no more than restricted speed." Similar to Canadian railways, a flashing yellow or green aspect might represent an upgrade to a higher speed or only apply if it's a passenger train--in these cases the track will usually have a speed limit sign near the signal that might look something like "30, F--60, P--79" which means that if you're in a diverging condition you should normally be at 30 MPH, but if you see a flashing aspect, that indicates that it's probably a high-speed crossover AND the track condition allows for higher speeds--60 for freight and full speed (79) for passengers.
If there is no speed signage on the track, then the crews are formally required to consult their timetables to determine the correct speed, but in modern practice, the mainlines are under Positive Train Control, which means the train will be electronically signaled via radio or track code to travel a current speed and that will be displayed in the cabin. PTC has additional protection in that if the crew exceeds this speed for any reason, the train will AUTOMATICALLY take whatever action is needed to reduce to that speed, first by cutting throttle, then progressive use of brakes ultimately leading to a full emergency stop.
Very interesting, indeed
Hi :) this is very interesting ,this stuff I my hobby and I didn know how to read the signals ,now I have idea how to read them ,, thks for this videos :),I appreciate it ,perfectly professional stuff :)well, little hard at first glance but with little more practice it comes clear :)I m also constructing little landskapes in HO gauge ,u know ,hobby stuff :)and if not problematic, where I can take some literature for exactly reading these signals ?:)Thks in advance :)
Greetings :)
really interesting !
Went down to Brockville today and saw the medium head and slow speed heads flashing yellow. What would that signal be?
Assuming there is a high speed head on a mast signal and is displaying a red aspect, the indication of that signal is slow to slow.
first two videos were ok but this one I have to pin and watch later. Not good to watch this one 5 in the morning after a long night when you are about to go to bed :) .
What's the signal combination for it's fish for lunch on Tuesday is it a an F plate with a flashing red and two yellows. This system is too complicated. If you want to slow a train right down give them a single yellow, if you want medium speed, double yellow - that should do it.
But that just isn't enough information. There's a lot more opportunity to needlessly waste time driving a train across Canada than driving across the UK. That time adds up. A single yellow [_amber_ in UK parlance] means you're going to stop at the next signal. But if you're not... there's no point here in showing it. There is also no such things as Approach-Release on US/Canada freight railroads.
What if the track switching to the left could be taken at 15mph and the track switching to the right could be taken at 45mph, anyway to point to which track the train switches too?
If you look the CROR rules then if theres two heads staggered and the bottom one is green then thats slow to clear. Why isnt it medium to clear with the bottom red placeholder removed
First two videos I understand. This one not so much.
You really need to be a rule instructor as you can distill information down so it is easy to digest. Your students would be very fortunate!!
So does the Canadian system run on mph or kmh? Going for my test shorlty and was just curious before hand
Miles per hour, because the rail operating rules were established back in the day when Canada was still using the Imperious system, so every subdivision has mile posts which are ingrained into the rules, as well as speeds like with the signals - medium speed, limited speed, slow speed, etc... were all established in MPH.
Question: Does the bottom head and middle head always mean a train is always going to switch to another track (lets say South track to North track) regardless if its flashing or not? For instance, medium to clear, Limited to stop
As far as I know, that is the case. The only thing I can think of, here in Winnipeg, there are some signals that will indicate (Y/Y) Clear to Slow, (Y/R) Clear to Stop, (R/R) Stop.
+CN Trainman Yes
Hi Ian, good job on the videos. Its interesting to see an operations guy's take on how the system works. I have been working in signalling offices and installation sites for over 10 yrs now: CP, CN & transit. I worked at CN's signal design office in Edmonton until they uprooted the office south of the border. I did a lot of design work in the GTA for GO during that time.
If you ever have any questions about why things are done the way they are, let me know. You can get a hold of me at my company website: www.signalogicsystems.com.
+Kevin Rudko Cool! Thanks for that. Just what little I've seen of the signals in GTA, wow that would be a confusing mess! haha!
I got a question for ya Kevin: Actually, two questions.
1) We're in the siding in siding controlled territory, and the opposing train is now occupying the controlled location (head end is past the controlled location, mid-train is occupying the location). If the tail end of the train rolls past the bond into the controlled location, does that send alarms? Or is the controlled location simply one block itself, and thus the passing train has already knocked the block down and so the system can't tell which train is holding the block down?
2) Why is it that we have to get work authority when we tie back on to our train but our head end is in the controlled location? We can't just go forward without RTC permission - why not?
Ian Juby
Q1) I'm not quite sure what alarm you are commenting on here. Your train is tucked away nicely in the dark siding and an opposing train rolls by picking up the block it just vacated with the tail end still in the control location track circuit.Maybe you can give a bit more.
Q2) You are referring to a rule 566 I think. The issue here is that for some controlled locations the normal interlocking functions preventing an opposing movement from the next controlled location (function called traffic locking) is circumvented if you back up out of a route. The written authority is part of the RTC's manual protection of the whole control block between control points, similar to entering main track between signals under 568 without electric lock.
Hi Kevin - thanks. Q1) I'm referring to a stop signal violation basically. Alarms go off in RTC center when we go through a red of course - even our tail end. This was just something someone mentioned to me the other day about how the controlled location is, effectively, it's its own block and so a train holding down the block is a train holding down the block - the system can't tell which train it is (unless of course the tail end of train 1 rolls into the block before it gets occupied by the opposing train which would drop the block and cause stains in the seats of the opposing train). If the train #2 has gone through the controlled location, it's holding down that block which would be the same block going into the siding until the bond - so if the tail end rolled out, it wouldn't show up on the RTC panel?
I'm not trying to get away with anything here, just inquiring minds wanna know. haha!
Q2) Okay, that makes sense - thanks for that.
1. The "controlled location" is a separate signal block in and of itself, but it's not called a signal block because it's shared between both directions of interlocking signals. The "controlled location" is like its own private island where the surrounding block signals get to take part if the interlocking deems it safe to do so. Most dispatcher/RTC/CTC panels I have seen will show the occupancy of the "controlled location" but are not able to distinguish between which track(s) is actually occupied. If the passing train clears the "controlled location" then they are subject to the signal indication for re-entering that location, and so immediately rolling back into it would entail passing a STOP SIGNAL which would be a no-no.
2. I may not have the complete story on this answer (Kevin's surely applies too), but making a stop within a "controlled location" is frowned upon within the rules because of limitations of detection systems in some interlockings. Rusty rail or wheels are two such possible limitations. The way detection works across rails and frogs is another, and some interlockings have used things like flange treadles to determine when switches should be locked or not. If the equipment sitting in the controlled location is not detected correctly then it's (remotely?) possible a conflicting movement could be arranged before you move. The RTC must ensure that the correct route is still lined and locked before you can move.
Hope that helps.
The switch shown at 0:43 is not lined either for the diverging route or for the non-diverging route. Does this happen often in Canada??
Likely a still photo of a switch with switch points while in motion.
@@-smokem: Nice try, but I don't see anybody operating the switch.
Yellow over green.
Interesting, a big difference compared the Dutch signal system.
Oh wow, that really is simple. Makes the British system of green > double-yellow > yellow > red for clear > prepare for caution > caution > stop seem so complicated. Lolification.
There is no *one* British system but if there were it would be a lot more complicated than just 4 aspects. You need to include route indicators, semaphores and all of their permutations and idiosyncrasies, shunting signals (both absolute and permissive ones), and the few other odd signals that dot the countryside here and there. Like the US, the British Isles and Australia have all sorts of _different_ signal systems in use in various areas.
I’m surprised medium speed is only 30 mph. I would have guessed 40-45 but what do I know
Lost me. Guess I'll never be an engineer.
Can you do how to read USA signal
Interesting, thx for posting. How would you know when the rear of your train has passed a signal, if say you have a mile long train?
We have a counter that we can push a zero button on it. We hit the button once we're clear of the light, and it counts the distance we've traveled according to the wheels.
Thx for the speedy reply Ian. I guess it was so much easier when the rear brakeman could call out from the caboose ;-)
Ian Juby My initial guess was that the rear end device had been fitted with some radio signal indicator that when it passed over a switch it would emit a signal to the controlling locomotive. So, there is a counter.
Thanks for this series. I have suggested some of my friends view it. I volunteer in a yard that has vintage railway equipment and we use nothing beyond hand signals.
Train crews also need to be familiarized with a line they operate on.
An engineer familiar with his route will also have a rough idea where the end of his train is without the use of the counter. Not exact of course, but a good idea.
Whatever happened to the slip switch that you could take at 30 mph plus in some cases.
Do you mean spring switches? They're a pain to operate. We had one here at Sioux Lookout, Ontario until about a year ago when they finally ripped it out and replaced it with a power switch. I think they've been trying to get rid of them right across the country because they were so hard to operate. We didn't have any you could transit at up to 30mph that I'm aware of.
Seems like the fail-safe principle isn't universal here, for example if a medium-to-medium signal (two lower greens) has its bottom color-selecting magnet fail, defaulting it to red.......won't it read RGR......a medium to CLEAR signal?
I agree. It's the best they can do. :)
+yabbaguy Improper signal progression. The crews are to be aware of that and act accordingly.
Most signal systems are designed so that if a failure is detected, the signals ahead of them respond accordingly. For example, if a flasher failure drops a signal from LIMITED TO CLEAR to MEDIUM TO CLEAR, the signal before that might also drop from (e.g.) CLEAR TO LIMITED to CLEAR TO MEDIUM. The preceding signal might also just drop to CLEAR TO STOP. This is because a failed flasher can fail not just to keep the green solid, but to also make the lamp stay dark. Red over Dark over Red is not a valid signal aspect in the CROR, so the signal is improperly displayed. -As all improperly displayed signals are supposed to be interpreted as their most-restrictive indication, the train would have to stop at that signal (since a signal showing LIMITED TO CLEAR would have a most-restrictive-possible indication of STOP SIGNAL).-
Jovetj for the bottom part: If yellow or green is still being displayed on a light, the most restrictive indication possible does not apply. They proceed prepared to stop at the next signal, slowing down slow speed ONLY if there is a switch present.
Yes, you are quite correct. That is a unique faucet of the CROR I did not know!
did you steal a DV plate? ian? 2:30
Very interesting that the canadian "failsafe" thought ends at some point for no reason.
At 8:30 if the slow head fails and shows red it would improve the signal to a "medium to clear"?
If the slow head fails on a US "medium approach medium"it is restricted back to a "medium approach".
You remind me of my algebra teacher lol
You didn't say what the shapes mean!
Just caught an eastbound fumbling through the rule books and looking up their signal on CZcams.
lol!
just an FYI, the definition you got wrong ;) good video though!!
Southern Ontario Railfan haha! Ya, and I actually had a signal in there that's not in the rulebook it turns out. :)
I think the only real problem with your presentation is that you're actually only doing one *type* of absolute signal: Speed (or home-distant) signalling. Admittedly that's the more complicated and far less intuitive system, but there's also *pure* route signalling: Top head is mainline, middle head is a crossover or "superior" diverging route (such as a single track mainline becoming two), and bottom head is siding or "inferior" diverging route. The color aspect indicates the speed to be followed onto the diverging route. There's also dummy heads (show red only), where a route merges *into* your track, but you can't diverge onto it. Most roads used both systems, depending on the district - route signalling is great if you're near an area with a lot of turnouts, speed signalling in districts with higher speeds and fewer turnouts.
And needless to say, if you're a model railroader, route signalling is *FAR* easier to wire up and model then speed signalling, which pretty much 100% requires computer control.
Bonk your head. There is only speed signalling in Canada.
@@enochliu8316 Oh! Didnt realise that at all, I thought that route signalling was universal as well as speed signalling.
when people ask me: is it difficult to drive a train?
I said the hardest part was reading signals lol
ha! True dat
Ok why is the Canadian railways so complex? Here is the US the signals are much easier
I'm in usa
What would it mean if it was red over flashing yellow over red?
Limited to stop. Limited speed passing signal and through turnouts, preparing to stop at next signal.
got the first 2 this one kind of lost me towrads the end lol
Very interesting, but my god its complicated. The British, german, New south wales, Victorian and New zealand systems are much simpler
Unnecassarily complicated. All around the world, there is a much simpler yet several times more efficient system with red, yellow, double yellow and green..that indicate everything from a switch (a lit strip at the top) with a yellow. A means signal in automatic mode, C means its under control, G means gate (level crossing) expected to honk...and so on. one can learn it i 5 minutes. Few accidents ,,,,,US, Canada have accidents/deaths every year.
Green means next 3 lights are clear. first double yellow means next is double yellow. Another double yellow means next could be yellow with a switch. you can tell if you have to change track by the small lit lights on top...so you slow down in advance.
In India there is AWS (auxiliary warning sytem). if you croos yellow more than 65 km/hr speed is brought down. if you try to cross red, emergency brakes stop the train
There must be an easier ( and therefore safer) system than this!
Yes there is. All they have to do is use the electronic signage method that is used over roadways. Such overhead signage read things like 'Accident 2 miles Ahead' or 'Reduce Speed Ahead', etc. These are actual messages that are sent to the signs from the traffic control center that change depending on the what is happening. This is simpler and clearly safer as there is no need to remember 50 combinations of lights.
I'm too high for this
Ya this one lost me. Holy crap how do trains not have more accidents.
Railroading is a profession and it takes a while to learn everything, like any other professional. we often refer to people like doctors and lawyers as professionals and everyone else seems to be uneducated idiots. That is not true. These people who operate trains are highly trained.
Way more complicated than it needs to be . Like the German system better .
The music is annoying!
Sooooooo complicated, the British system makes much more sense
+Szymon Gorczynski Ridiculously complicated. You know that is true when it takes 4 parts to explain them.
Tommy Truth Under the British signalling system you have 4 aspects to remember + an extra 4 for diversionary routes and your semaphore signals. This is just pathetic.
+Szymon Gorczynski Anybody who can learn all of this belongs in medical school or getting a PHD in physics.
+Szymon Gorczynski It really isn't that complicated. Once you know them you don't forget them.
***** Cause by the time you manage to memorise it you're dead.
Lots of info, annoying music.