The Philosophy of Rene Girard, Luke Burgis
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2022
- One of the most frequently referenced names among many of the thinkers we've been following on Rebel Wisdom has been that of Rene Girard. He was a French polymath, historian, literary critic, and philosopher of social science, who introduced the idea of memetic desire, and an explanation of the function of the 'scapegoat' in organising societies. He was described as the "new Darwin of the human species".
Luke Burgis has just written a book about Girard's work called 'Wanting, the Power of Memetic Desire in Everyday Life': lukeburgis.com/wanting/
He joined us to introduce this fascinating thinker and to answer RW members' questions about why this work is so significant now.
Great to see a Rebel Wisdom video show up on my notifications. Been too long.
I miss this channel, come back!
I'm going to call this the most important video ever posted on youtube.
Superb interview…thank you.
On the back of this video the algorithm delivered this little gem “Rene Girard on Peter’s Denial”.
Excellent clear presentation from the guest here
Great interview. Am so grateful to René Girard and really looking forward to listening to Luke’s book. 🙏💓
Excellent discussion.
“An illumined soul puts aside desire,
Offering the act to Brahman.
The lotus leaf rests unwetted on water:
An illumined soul rests on action, untouched by action.”
Bhagavad Gita, book 5, verse 10.
Great discussion! 🙏
I have a mix of fear and desire to read Rene Girard, It will be sought for. Thank you both
Daniel O’Connell from Kerry in Ireland I think was an inspiration to Gandhi. His experience of the French Revolution had a big impact on him. Gordon Wilson from Enniskillen in N. Ireland is another good example of someone not wanting the cycle of violence to continue.
That is very interesting. I wonder if I am related to Daniel O'Connor, via my maternal lineage, - my grandmother was an O'Connor). I became a conscientious objector and Christian pacifist in the 1980's in South Africa, refusing conscription to the whites only South African Defence Force. Is pacifism transmissible via our genes, I wonder? My Great Uncle, Captain John Thomas O'Connor was a commander in the Cape Mounted Rifleman, but his diaries reveal a spirit of someone who worked to prevent loss of life, and the escalation of violence. He started out as a police officer. However the police were militarised and he was obliged to accept a military command and served in the Gun War of 1879 in the South Africa. But his whole ethos was to prevent war and stop the cycle of violence. He once refused an order to fire upon "rebels" and found himself at odds with his superior officer, and was himself scapegoated for not going along with the Colonial memetic desire culture. He was mercifully transferrred out of the military and served as a Colonial Magistrate until his death in 1899, after distinguishing himself as a man of peace and justice.
I would appreciate if you could kindly email me any other information you have on Daniel O'Connor to johngeeic@gmail.com. It would serve as a great backstory to the book I am working on which transcribes my Uncle John's diaries and reminisces. Also, Gandhi was hugely influential in my conscientious objection decision. His granddaughter lives in South Africa and is a friend. She would be interested in the connection. Thanks
@@Icosindaba I visited Daniel O’Connell’s homestead in Kerry back in July. To my shame I knew very little about him until then. This book would be your best route to find out more: Patrick M. Geoghegan
Liberator: The Life and Death of Daniel O'Connell 1830-1847
Reading Girard's 'I see Satan Fall like Lightning' was hands down one of the most extraordinary experience I've ever had.
I agree with Luke - I don't think people understand Girard well enough to comprehend the scope of his insights.
Im enjoying the concept behind Rene Girard and can unerstand his concepts obviously! But more importantly, the questions that Luke burgis is looking to understand, I have to say, he has to percieve the concept from many dimensions and from all angles at the same time before he can see the wood for the trees! I have that skill and can answer them if you want to get in touch. Im in the process of subscribing to join the group. Hope to see you all soon.
The most actionable take away here is to examine this mechanism in our own lives. One access point to seeing scapegoats is to look at gossip and particularly look at how gossip is used as currency. Once u c the fungibility of gossip u will soon see the implied evaluative scale
I find it very interesting to think of the ways in which David eventually scapegoated, to my mind too hastily the thoughts and worldviews of his Peterson subject and his supposed friendship with Bret Weinstein during the outcome from the pandemic and notably what it meant internally for him to go through this exercise but come out on the other side sort of without a real recognition of what they inevitably got very very right, specifically Bret and Heather.
We as 21st century people need to read Girard deeply.
I really quite enjoyed when the host placed this framework of scapegoating onto the pandemic. This really threw this guy off. This scapegoating narrative is one I notice percolating up in these RW talk circles "let's not assign blame to anyone", & "it's no one's fault we got here", the "renunciation" of "desire" b/c desire is a "sin". It seems we may be headed for some kind of "collapse", these same voices are also warning us about-don't "blame" anyone though! 🙄 . The RW did indeed engage in mindless & destructive scapegoating during the pandemic, & that fact threw this guy for a real nice little loop-you can see him thrown off.
Great job there.
Something just hit me at the end of this discussion, ie. flipping memetic desire into a positive-sum game after the negative crashes or burns itself out on social media. Could that be the sort of phase-change Daniel Schmachtenberger has been looking for, if it happens?
We should take care of ourself and look inside ourself instead of looking at others .
That is what we all should do .
One only needs to read Judges which over and over says, 'and the people did what was right in their own eyes' (Judges 21 vers 25)
Seems to me there is tremendous potential energy to release as aggression or to transcend in Girare's mimetic theory.
Vast devastation upon release of aggressive energy must be proportional to good effect of transcendence . . . expect miracles!
Rene Girard is a game changer!
The idea of mimetic desire isn't new as far as i am aware, but it is largely unconscious in most people. However anyone who finds themselves awakening to their true potential, inevitably realises at some point that there is a difference between true and false desires; between the desires we have for the things we think we want, (partially derived from mimicking others, and partial derived from what we think we need to survive both physically and socially e.g a form of success we think will win us approval, which in the end only we can give ourselves etc. ) and true desires that emanate from the soul/Self, which in occultism is often referred to as the Higher-Will and in Taosim as the Sage etc. True desire becomes more and more the centre of gravity when we move away from egocentrism toward self-realisation, which is only possible through some form of spiritual engagement/ cultivation of the spiritual side of being human. Despite this however - still a nourishing conversation, a mimetic desire clearly drives the masses and affects our world.
It works on you, when you are not paying attention.
PSA: There's an interview with Girard from Dec 09 on the Hoover Institution channel.
Renunciation only works if it’s the consequence of doing a 180 to question yourself and therefore coming to understand cause and effect within. Otherwise, there will be a sneaky motivation underneath the renunciation.
I hear what is said about Boris being scapegoated, being out of proportion.
It seems if we want to resolve our own crisis, we should acknowledge that fact publicly.
Take home message:
we don't have to agree on what to desire, what is desirable or who the scapegoats should be,
but, at some point we have to agree to stop playing the game of mimetic desire,
through practicing real virtues, gratitude, forgiveness, sympathy and empathy etc.
Around 25 minutes in there was talk about Buddhism and the Buddhist quest for freedom from desire… the host indicated Christians had, I think he use the term warped, views on desire because of their prohibition against certain desires…
I wanted to offer that the Christian view of desire stands in stark contrast to the Buddhist view of desire. To the Buddhist desiring nothing is nirvana but to the Christian having the strongest possible desire for that which is most desirable is in view. God, in Christian theology, is desirable above all else and is fully satisfying… Those who know God and are known by God will desire greatly and find that their desires are always satisfied. it’s not warped in any capacity it’s ordinate and appropriate desire.
if God exists, then God is rightly the focus of our desire and as thirst strongly hints at water, desire for the good and the beautiful hints at God.
On Christian theology God is, alone, worthy of worship.
Yeah but what is God? How do you think you can know anything about it?
There was much discussion of the scapegoat. Am I correct in understanding this term to originate from the Jewish ritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur?
That ritual in light of this discussion takes on interesting meeting.
Tuning in with my grain of salt ready after the previous comments on Peterson. As if we can observe the cultural war being fought against innocent, ignorant people, without ourselves getting into the battle, and call ourselves enlightened for not fighting and getting bloody.
Ah I see. You are part of the Peterson defense force. Falling for the memetic meme like a pleb.
I enjoyed this talk very much. However, I am left somewhat astonished that any two people could discuss Rene Girard for one hour without acknowledging his debt to Erich Auerbach (Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature.) I deeply regret being introduced to this book at Uni when I was a stupid, ignorant 19-year-old so I could blithely say, "Oh, yeah, I've read that" and know literally nothing about it.
I will miss Rebel Wisdom...but a desire I'm willing to let go..safe in the knowledge the wisdom was passed over
Layman Pascal says being in a place where we can hold and move with irrationality and the unknowingness of the current situation is where we need to get to. This guy says there is a big problem with that because of the fragmentations and the felt sense of meaninglessness in the culture.........I think and feel Rebel Wisdom are doing some of your best work as you wrestle with these questions..........you are throwing up and highlighting the contradictions held within the same space of enquiry......This is surely Rebel Wisdom in the act................don't through it away now......you are properly doing your work.........synthesis can wait another day.......
Re covid - (Last two years of covid was actually a globally shared experience). Girard actually wrote an article about Plague showing the term Plague refers not to biological disease only but to the combination of that with social disease. Any number of REAL material problems can catalyse the constantly simmering social problem of Mimetic rivalry.
Re solving the Mimetic problem, Awareness of the issues - and acceptance of mimesis in oneself and others - perhaps goes beyond renunciation because it doesn’t set up opposites. Renunciation or prohibition can engender a backlash effect.
The missing step in the discussion is that the same force of mimesis takes over from mimetic desire when rivals begin to imitate each other’s hostility - Mimetic Desire becomes Mimetic Rivalry - in this phase or manifestation of mimesis, the rivals *appear* to be opposites but are in fact still the same - their stances will be perfectly opposed (Eg anti vs pro vax) but exactly the same in their hostile focus on the other camp. Hence why trolls goad someone into a Mimetic response - mimetiically hostile.
Sacrificial rites as in the Aztecs are still unconscious in that the perpetrators and communities think the sacrifices work on magic - on the supernatural - rather than understanding that they ‘work’ in the purely material sense of providing a focus for projected hostility or strife and then killing the carrier of those projections. Ritual sacrifice is not consciousness of the scapegoating mechanism - it’s performed on an illusion of gods etc. If everyone knows you’re scapegoating someone in order to get the cathartic scapegoating effect - it’s too conscious and it won’t have the effect
Mimesis - mirror neurons. Humans have way more than other animals. They support bonding and learning. Mimetic desire and rivalry are down side - by products. Not going away soon. We have to raise our consciousness around all this - at some point - if it’s fully understood by enough people, perhaps it will deflate itself.
20:40 are we talking about the same Rene Girard? Because the Rene Girard isan extraordinarily cogent speaker on Spirituality
I have read Girard, did a paper on him in uni. However most of his theory is not testable so as a consequence it is not falsifiable. Has anyone done some work on how his ideas can be tested?
Fidget spinners and trans the kids are more proof than we need.
@@marcus8710 ahhh. Track much?
@@marcus8710 Confirmation Bias? Millions of kids bring in millions of playthings to school and they are roundly ignored. Fidget spinners took off. For a while. Now they're largely gone. According to "Mimetic Desire", as it seems to be explained here, all kids should be copying each other all the time regardless of the actual content of what is being copied? How and why do children, people discriminate. They can't copy everything. You're going to encounter people with diametrically opposed desires. What do you do then. Presumably there's more to it than this, but if there is I'm not getting it from this interview, so far, but will press on.
Muzaver Sherif and Solomon Asch did psychological experiments which indicate an extent of unconscious group conformity
2 examples spring to mind, both with regard to the mimetic impact of police force.
First, speeding police cars, encourage people to speed.
Second, police brutality, encourages people to engage in brutality.
Police should act in a way that could be a universal rule, be the model citizen and lead by example. In Kant's categorical imperative.
I think our desire is first animalistic, to satisfy the body needs,
Then our desire is mimetic,
but then, we can transcend mimetic desire, once we can see it.
He was described as the "new Darwin of the human species".
By whom? Hume?
Girard is very "in" isn't he. I'm currently reading his "The Theatre of Envy" - makes A Midsummer Night's Dream seem less cuddly. Are Girard and Joseph Campbell irreconcilable? They look it at first glance...
17:50 in and none the wiser.
Very interesting subject. I feel that the 4 nobel truths cover much of this. BTW that story of the "scape goat" is a Jewish story. A great example for your point, but I must point out that there's no such things as "ancient Israel". That would be Palestine you are referring to? Israel is 70 years old.
Girard never played down his religious perspective. His entire thesis is essentially religious.
Re: 35:35 anti-memetic machinery
15:17 "Lack of a shared narrative" PostModerism was supposed to be the great equalizer where everyone's truth has equal weight. We end up with every truth that has no weight.
36:06… hmmm…
28/8/23 ... 🛸
The scapegoat theme comes from the Bible
Book of Leviticus, in which a goat is designated to be cast into the desert to carry away the sins of the community.
mimetic, not memetic.
Yes. Thanks. Took me a while. Memes are everywhere. Mimes are not. Hard to recall there is such a thing. But Mimetic it is.
22:30 This sounds like therapy for the interviewee, who seems to enjoy talking about himself...much more than I desire to listen to him.
Where unvaccinated scapegoats?
No. The conspiracy about the vaccine was the scapegoat. China, the government, the secret cabal of evil pharma companies. One of the hallmarks of scapegoats is they take all the blame for the entire problem so you no longer have any responsibility over it.
The unvaccinated might be a scapegoat for dumb people, but we have to live with them all the time anyhow.
They conveniently ignored that like the mob masses are also ignoring their part in the mob mentality. If you want honesty, go read Charles Eisenstein’s series on Girard.
@@AlKalain I actually purchased a book called "Social Myths and collective imaginaries" by Gerard Bouchard in hopes of understanding the psychosis playing out in our society as of lately.
The whole world will learn from the grotesque conduct of the Lodge that facilitated and rewarded Jimmy Savile. Diseased Lodges as "culture" ?
Not mentioning Charles Eisenstein’s series on Rene Girard and Scapegoating (or the Mob Mentality) pertaining to the whole Covax debacle, is amateurish if omitted by mistake, and just crass enough for me to unsubscribe to this cherry picking farm if done intentionally. After listening to this I am convinced this was done on purpose! Stating that « The pandemic did not find a scapegoat to blame » is insane. We all saw and read and heard or felt the mob blame the unvaxxed. And ignoring that in a 2022 piece on Girard is nothing less than cowardice.