How to use a Dive Computer: A GUE Instructor's Guide
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- #gueheroes #divegue #divecomputer #doktorben
From Shearwater Peregrine, Petrel or Perdix over Galileo HUD, Suunto d5 to the OSTC's...Dive Computers are everywhere in the industry. But GUE had a controversial view on decompression/dive computers for long time. Many arguments against dive computers do not hold true anymore, since Dive Computers improved greatly over the last years. Did that change GUE's official opinon? What dive computer is allowed on a GUE Fundamentals Class? And how and when do I use and not use them?
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00:00 Start
01:06 Why GUE did not recommend Dive Computers
04:45 Did GUE change it's mind?
06:34 The value of NOT using a Dive Computer
07:54 How to use a Dive Computer
09:24 GUE's changed view on Dive Computers
09:57 Ten Rules when using a Dive Computer
14:14 The right Dive Computer for the GUE Fundamentals Class - Jak na to + styl
So which computer do you use and how do you use it?
Garmin Mk1 - has a gauge mode and settable Buhlman. and you can turn off the safety stop, and use up to 6 gasses.
Ratio iX3M Tech+ is the one i'm using with BUL16B. Just a question out of curiosity you give the advise that the "default" GFL/GFH is 20/85 but i couldn't find anywhere what that's based on ?
Sorry, it’s the default for GUE. Other agencies might use other GFs. You can find it in the GUE SOP document.
@@DoktorBEN Thanks ! I couldn't find the value indeed, but i found it in the SOP (Page 5, Rec3, Tech1&2 ).
You’re welcome!
i really like your channel and almost all of your videos.
While I agree on your point (divers should be able not to relay on computers and should always make a dive plan to be followed on their wetnotes with a bottom timer), I am not aligned with your view. Assuming that we are talking about top rank computers (example perdix)
1) recent computers (last 10y or more) are very accurate, reliable, algorithm can be modified (GF) and more importantly will better capture the dive parameters if compared to manual control (example, if you do the deco control manually, you will always round depth variance and time, while the computer will have more detailed analysis), not even considering if you might have some narcosis and add numbers wrongly
2) on 8:15 you said that, during a dive, in case of divergencies between your deco plan and your computer you would assess which to use. Here the rule should be simple: use the more conservative between the two
3) many things can happen during a dive, in case of a problem you might lose control on checking manually time/depth (example, primary torch failed, entanglement, team members having issues which needs to be solved, lost team members scenario..). A dive computer would cover that
4) I think it is a bit an hazard to suggest a beginner to dive without a computer but only a bottomtimer, if really needed I would rather suggest to dive with the bottomtimer on thw wrist and a computer in the pocket. At end of the dive look at the computer and see if your expectations are aligned with it.
Finally, myself for shallow dives rather that making a full plan I assess the limits of the safety curve (how much time at max depth with that gas), for deco dives then I make a full plan in my wetnotes, plan the dive on the computer (and comparing the results with the wetnote) ant then sharing and discussing with the team. In this case the computer is there only to help if needed.
Fully agree, biggest difference when i switched from rec diving to tec diving is that i was finally in control of the dive. Without planning the dive you have no sense if the computer indications makes sense. You could have accidentally switched to the wrong gas selection in the computer or selected the wrong gradients. There is nothing more reassuring that having a plan and seeing the computer confirming such plan whilst diving.
Absolutely!
Excellent!
Computers have come a long I use my shearwater AI dive computer along with another shearwater as my backup just incase, so I can focus and enjoy myself, I don't know many in the USA that doesn't own one. Remember I came from the days of time tables and now that computers have become very reliable they is no reason to use them anymore in the 20th century. One thing I will say if anyone buys one don't look to save money for that I wouldn't recommend buying one.
Thanks for the video. I use the Perdix AI with the AI function. I do this in addition to the manual SPG. I like having the redundancy, but the real win for me is the data logging. Having the AI let's me look back at and reflect on air usage differences during different moments in the dive. That allows me to learn from my dives and consider why my consumption might have been higher during an activity. I hadn't considered using it in gauge mode before this, so thanks for the suggestion, I think it's an excellent one. I was actually already a little sad it's not possible to tell the Perdix to follow GUE MDL procedures, so gauge mode is a great way to prevent confusion during recreational MDL dives.
I’m happy you like the tip. For me personally, AI has no real benefit, since I can calculate the SCR manually if I like. However, having it will most likely not kill you😄
@@DoktorBEN most likely not killing me is definitely preferable to the opposite!
Oh yeah... always avoid a state of permanent deathness! 🤣
Excellent video, very informative! Makes me rethink purchasing a Shearwater Teric. But shiny new dive gear...
Yeah I know what you mean 🤣
First of all just for the record: I'm still a beginner and have no experience in tech diving, just a very keen interest. One thing I find interesting in any 'human versus technology' discussion, is that the reliability of the technology is questioned, but it's often implicitly assumed that the human is infallible. But (not a great comparison) in, for example, cars, it's very clear by now that technology such as ABS, ESP and so forth are safer than all but the very best of humans in their very best performance. Of course it's not smart to do a challenging technical dive when your brain is compromised (lack of sleep, hangover, you name it), but wouldn't a computer also offer an additional layer of safety by prompting a diver to question what's in their head as much as what's on the display when the two don't match up?
But I guess the main point of your video (and the current GUE stance) already boils down to 'a computer is a good tool when combined with a thinking diver', so maybe most of my comment is a bit useless anyway :-)
Yeah it’s a mutual thing. The computer can make the diver think, of he‘s right, too!
It would be interesting to see a study from DAN on the incidence of dive accidents and death caused by blindly following the computer vs ignoring it. Dr Simon Mitchell related storied of dive INSTRUCTORS literally dying because they kept turning off the warnings on their computers during a dive. I like your middle of the road approach.
Yeah it’s not good to turn off warnings, if you have no better idea 🤣. But yeah, this is worth an investigation
Sounds like pilots ignoring master caution/warning alarms. This is why modern aircraft flight control systems have control laws to decide if they will allow the crew request to become flight control inputs. The human factor in aviation accidents is over 80% pilot error. I feel like the same thing can happen in diving. I agree that it’s good to plan a dive, and understand the fundamentals, but the technology is here to help you stay safer in my opinion.
Sure, but the technology in an aircraft vs. a dive computer is different and it can help you, but still you should be in charge of the dive.
@@DoktorBEN I agree you should be aware of where you’re at in the dive plan, but the dive computer isn’t physiologically affected like we are at depth. I feel like that helps to mitigate some of the human factor for error. I know you have a different opinion on that. I’m not completely sold yet. Try harder. 😁
Nah, it can be a very valuable tool if not followed blindly. Think we have the same opinion here. The difference between a pilot and a diver is that the pilot doesn’t take a 3 day class, it’s given a computer and good to go. He learns every aspect of how to pilot a plane and what to do if instruments fail.
I have! Wait for it... Tadada... Mares Puck Pro! 😀 When I was a newbie I was told a computer is the first thing I should buy. I was also told not to consider it too much because I am going to upgrade it later anyway.
The first advice was stupid, but considering it together with the second one - not so much. It is one of the cheapest comptuters on the market and just for a sake of having wirelessly exported dive logs to my MacDive I would buy it again. I am still learning a lot by analyzing my dives, even though after fundies I don't follow computer recommendations anymore. Maybe I can switch it to bottom timer and still have my logs? That would be the best option, I need to try that.
I love buying diving gear the same way as probably every diver does, but I doesn't feel any serious need for upgrading the computer yet (except a bungee extension sometimes 😛).
Yeah that’s just fine. I bought my OSTC just because my Black BT‘ s display broke and I wanted to have a good OLED display.
Is this now included in the revised version of DIR: Fundamentals of Better Diving? and are the Ratios for ratio deco due to change based on a higher GF Lo (more like 50) being preferred currently in the deco research?
There's not really a chapter about dive computers. By now, GUE does not suggest using ration deco any more but to check always back with a deco software.
I am on the path of moving from a provisional to rec (tech?) pass on fundies. If the diver is responsible for adjusting deco plans based on in-dive inputs, how do you maintain a team assent? While the team may have experienced much the same, there could be some differences and at least different reassessments. Does this require reaching a consensus calling for end of dive? Is there a way to determine which divers chose profile will govern all?
Awesome video, thank you very much 👍
Yeah thank you!
Thanks for sharing this. It’s very informative and well made.
I have a question.
Do you carry a backup bottom timer?
I understand that when your BT or computer fails, you can still follow do the team ascent by following the deco captain or team.
However, in worst case scenario, you accidentally get separated? How would you effectively ascend without any bottom timer to tell you the depth and time?
Thanks
Usually not, cause it’s really unlikely to get seperated AND have a BT failure... and still then you could just count seconds in your head for instance and use a SMB to measure depth. Still, it doesn’t hurt to have a second BT as Backup in your pocket, if you own it anyway.
I had a computer and used it in gauge mode only because I plan dives and dive plans. I wasn't thinking much about it until it died, and I decided I did not need a replacement. Then I bought a wrist gauge.
Yeah sure, you can always get along with a simple BT
Excellent Briefing on GUE ops 😊👍
Hello Ben, I appreciate your video because I don't like dive computers. I understand their utility but I believe it is dangerous not to plan a dive. Most of the people who uses them told me that dive tables are too complex to use. I dislike that attitude! When I was young, dive computers already existed but I always used a dive table because I didn't have money to buy a computer.
Yeah did the same and still use a bottom timer often now, even I item a computer.
I have two plans; my target plan, then a back up plan with plus 5m and plus 3 mins, both written on a slate (and back up slate)... I then use my computer and have a back up computer in guage mode. If my computer breaks, I go onto slates, if I go +0.1m or +1 second on my target plan, I then use my back up plan.
But all being well, I dive using my computer and have never had to switch to my slate (touch wood).
I usually have +5m/+3min plans just in my head. But yeah, luckily dive computers are pretty reliable these days!
@@DoktorBEN yeah, I'm too forgetful for that :)
it’s easy with the right rules of thumb and memory tricks. Still, not bad to have it written down
im planning to get a Perdix (failing eyes). Should i get the Perdix Ai ? Or Perdix? Will be finishing my Gue Fundamentals
What is the advantage of the AI in your opinion?
Dive logs. You can study your profiles in much more details after the dive, check when your consumption is not optimal, train those situations more and it can also give you a good input for planning your future dives in regards of gas management. On doubles it can give you some kind of redundancy if you still keep your analog SPG (I would and during the dive I would use it as a primary resource to check on my gas, don't trust the wireless thing on 100 %).
Not having a computer with AI and never had, those are just reasons why I would maybe consider buying one. It brings very similar negatives as using dive computers in general though, so is it worth the extra money? Not sure.
I wouldn’t get it. The only legit argument in my view would be to analyze the gas consumption. However, the information gained from that is very little since I know when my gas consumption peaks up - when lifting an anchor, in an OOG scenario with my Buddy and so on. The redundancy is not really an argument, because when you loose the left post, you cancel the dive anyway. A Chinese proverb says: A man with two watches never knows the time. So I don’t find it really helpful, at least not to extend it was worth spending the extra money.
@@DoktorBEN hahaha, love the Chinese proverb and will stick to it 👌Thanks Ben.
You’re welcome!
So any recommendations? I have been using Aladdin G2 bottom timer mode, has been very good but it is 10+ year old. Gettting very best up. It seems not too many computers bottom time has average depth and stop watch function.
Well…the HW Bottomtimer seems to do a very good job. Watch my video about it
Wie planst Du denn Multilevel- und/oder Wiederholungstauchgänge über einen längeren Zeitraum, z.B. 2 bis 3 Wochen, wo locker bis zu 50+ Tgs zusammenkommen?
Das ist natürlich die perfekte Anwendung für den TC. Parallel nutze ich trotzdem Multi Deco. Und sicher kommt das auch auf die Tauchgänge und den Zeitraum an.
I use Perdix and so far I haven't had a single failure. Before each dive I ensure that the battery level is good, and when I have to replace it, I double check, and replace if necessary the o-rings on the battery cover. What kind of failures did you experience with your computer?
They might go off. But that’s not the reason but merely that divers hand over their responsibility for their deco to a computer
@@DoktorBEN If my computer (Cobra) goes off, I let it rest in a safe place, and use my watch and my console ... That's how I dived my first 50 dives .... There simply were no (affordable) computers ... and btw there were no BCDs either ....
So which one do you use? I have two Shearwater Perdix AI ... but no AI 😉
OSTC2. But Perdix would be a nice option, too 😁
So what bottom timers show depth and live average depth? Most dive computers I've played with only show avg depth after the dive in the logs of if downloaded, but not live during the dive.
OSTC for instance…Perdix and many more
And some of the "only bottom timers" that have no NDL info such as Scubapro are more expensive than a basic Suunto Zoop that also has NDL, freediving mode etc
@@DoktorBEN ok, but you can't say you'd be saving money by buying a bottom timer if you are recommending a Perdix that goes for $900... I understand the value of the computer verifying what is in your head and agree with you there, but it isn't fair for folks to constantly say you can save money by buying a bottom timer instead of a computer unless you give real examples that cost much less than a computer.
You asked for dive computers that have avg. depth. Still most BT‘s show it nowadays and even many very simple dive computers.
@@DoktorBEN ok, is there a bottom timer you can recommend that fits your requirements and is much less than a computer? I'm not trying to be adversarial at all, I'm just interested in finding one. Love your channel and thanks for putting so much quality info out there!
Years ago I always said "my dive computer is between my ears"
Absolutely!
i have gauges and 2 dive computers. I try to make sure if either computer fails I can work off my gauges in a pinch. i do all my calculations and write them on my slate before every dive .. memory is not like it use to be.
Yeah you can. However, the principles are very easy to remember and to apply on the fly.
Can you suggest any BT ?
Scubapro
I dislike that most diving clubs are not going to accept a diver who does not use a computer.
Mmmmhhhh, I'm only a recreational diver and what I've been taught is that never ever a recreational diver enters in deco (of course leaving aside emergencies which by the way is what a deco ascent is called an emergencie).
You always do a safety stop at 5 meters during 3 minutes just to help your body to get rid of some more nitrogen precisely in the gap where the change of pressure is the highest.
Besides that, without a computer you can not calculate your bottom time as precisely. You have to rely on the tables, which I know how to use, and plan your dive with that max of bottom time. But not always a dive is at some predeterminated depth, most of them are multilevel and how do you calculate that without a computer? Of course you can cut the dive short because you have spent the max amount of time at whatever depth you planned or you can dive with your slates and pencil adding minutes at which depth you are every minute instead of having fun and enjoying your surroundings, don't you think?
Of course I say nothing about tech dive cause I know nothing about it but I guess that a computer is a great assistant in that planning too.
Well…I think you’ve been taught only half of the story. It depends mainly on the association. CMAS divers do deco even with */OWD. It’s not a big deal if you know how to do it. The same applies to the use of not-use of computers. You don’t need a computer and you’re still not tied to tables. You just need to learn how to do it. And that’s the problem…most agencies don’t teach you how to do it. Might it be because the big ones are associated with equipment manufacturers who like to sell you computers? IDK. I just know that I do Trimix dives without computer and tables safely 🤷🏼♂️
Like @DoktorBEN mentioned: Yes, you are able to calculate deco on the fly. The only thing you need is time and average depth, which are both available on the bottom timers or most dive computers. If you are interested search for GUE, UTD or ISE agencies training. They teach such approach since beginner recreational classes.
The primary argument, which seems to be that computers make divers lazy, is absurd. Let's not pass the responsibility for safe diving from the diver to the computer. Not only can you plan a dive on computer, you can follow that plan and the computer tells you when you're not. When divers blindly follow the computer, it is a failure of training, not computers. Sure, you shouldn't use an Apple Watch as your primary computer, but real dive computers have been proven to be safe and reliable over at least 20 years of use, when used properly. While any open water class should rely on pen and paper tables, nobody should be discouraged from using computers after that. As far as everyone using the same algorithm, the solution is to go with the most conservative between buddies. If my buddy's computer says 3 minutes for a safety stop and mine says 5, we do 5. End of story. If other people do something different, that is their fault. My computer came with a warning that it has bugs and you shouldn't solely rely on it to dive safely, and users should heed that warning. If they don't, that is squarely on them as bad divers or bad training. Maybe WRSTC recognition of GUE would make this opinion somewhat more credible.
That’s one of the problems…always using the most conservative computer can be a problem at least in technical diving but it’s a common concept with computers. GUE does not discourage Peine from using computers…still it’s not really a necessary piece of equipment.
but why do you sing all the time....it tears my ears apart...
I sing??
@@DoktorBEN man, you surely do. Speak naturally.
It’s naturally! 🤣🤣 this is my voice!