Do Deeper Bass Drums Really Produce A More Powerful Tone? Let's Do An Experiment And See...
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- Before 1980 most every drum set bass drum was 14" deep. Nowadays an 18" depth is pretty standard. What's the difference sonically? For a couple of decades now I have been noticing a trend in performance between shallow and deeper bass drums when miked, and I have finally decided to put my observations to a test. Join me and let's have some fun!!
It's the most fun you'll have all week! ;)
0:00 Introduction and background (my experiences with deep vs. shallow bass drums)
6:07 The drum I'm using for this demonstration
7:31 Audition: the stock drum (18" deep)
8:39 The modification
9:15 Audition: the modified drum (14" deep)
10:20 Instructions before listening again
11:32 Audition: stock vs. modified drum (interleaved comparison)
12:37 Wrap up and closing -- Thanks for watching!!!
I had it in my head that I never wanted a 14" kick. Until I got one. And there's nothing like a 24"x14" Huge, punchy and quick without being as unwieldy as a 26". 26" feels like you're playing a 1980's waterbed mattress. And the key to the larger sizes coming alive is tightening your reso more than you would think and suddenly the walls start to shake.
My absolute favorite bass drum is my Ludwig (heavy 6-ply late 70s shell) 24x14. I can make that drum as defined and articulate or open/boomy, off-the-chain as I want with tuning, muffling and miking/processing. It's my desert island kick. I also love my 26" as well (1969, 3-ply Ludwig, natural interior -- converted marching bass drum), and yes, you gotta tune those heads up on drums with that much real estate, but the 'boom' is tremendous!!
Can not agree more. I’ve a Lignum birch stave kit with a 24”x14” bassdrum and a 20”x14” bassdrum/floortom … the 24” is the best bassdrum I EVER heard !
So true! My 40-year-old Slingerland kit has two 24x14" bass drums. When I first set it up in my high school band room, the other drummer said, "Wow, these sound like thunder!" They still do, and I've never felt the need to buy another kit. 😄
I’ve wanted a 24x14 forever! It’s gonna happen sometime!
@@drumdotpizza I had a kit with two of those 24x14". Thermogloss natural maple. They sounded great with just about any drumhead.
Wow this was a real eye opener for me! What strikes me the most is the way the 14" kick drum feels a lot tighter and more controlled...the 18" feels almost flabby in comparison. I believe the 18" has extra sustain, but its the sort of sustain I always try to get rid of in my mixes anyway! It just muddies everything. Appreciate this!
please red my comment. cheers
I like the 14. To my ear the 18 sounded deeper but the sound was less "cohesive" than the 14. I ran each section through RTA software with averaging to compare. It appears the 18 has a prominent peak at 43Hz that's 4dB higher than the 14 but from there the output drops like a rock. They both have the same output at 30Hz but at 20Hz, the 14 has 8dB more output but I don't think I heard that through the headphones. Overall the 14 has a smoother response.
I was about to do the same .. hahaha you just saved me an hour at least...
Im not a drummer but as an engineer I track a lot of drums. To this date some of the most powerful drums I’ve ever recorded was a DW Frequent Flier kit my buddy had. I wanna say it’s a 20 x 12 kick, 5 x 14 snare and 12 and 14 inch Tom’s. Skin heads with a monster of a player and these little drums sounded absolutely GIGANTIC. To this day I don’t see a need for bigger drums in the studio unless a band specifically wants them, I still think about that kit often. Man I gotta get that guy back in the studio.
Big difference in the studio than on stage. Big drums can be too much for small rooms and mics
Not surprising that smaller drums can be recorded in a way that makes them seem more powerful in the mix. Mic'd and mixed sounds are all relative in ways that the engineer decides. Session great Gary Novak said that he would sometimes use a smaller stick in his left hand (for the backbeat) because the smaller stick made the snare drum sound relatively large on tape. And Todd Sucherman has talked about adjusting the amount of power he uses to hit the drums in the studio because it changes the sound.
Give him a call. You will be glad you did. haha
Iv got the flyer kit and I sold my higher end dw to keep it. Best kit iv had and the bass drum is so punchy for the size. Also yes it's a 20x12 12x8 14x11
@@kellyb0279Hello,please tell me what drumheads do you use on frequent flyer kit?Thank's in advance
This is gold. I didn't expect to like the shallower one. I'd say it's a lot more focused and firm and still has a big low end.
Made it to the end! And I recently had Zoog trim down my 20x22 to a 14x22 and the difference was night and day. It's easier to tune, The rebound and feel is much more tighter, the thump is more defined and I also gained 6 inches of room back. So it's a win all around. 14 is where it's at.
Long live Jon Zoog!!! So cool to hear about that, thanks for sharing. And yes, the added room in your vehicle is a bonus!! 😁
Jon Zoog is great guy and done quite a bit of work for me
I gotta say, the difference is much more drastic than I expected. Wow. I too have moved away from 18" kicks to 16" and 14" kicks over the past few years, primarily because the feel better under foot to me, but I didn't realize how much the depth affected the sound! Awesome video, man, thanks for that.
I've been using an 18x16 in kick drum in studio and rock setting for the last 8 years. people always laugh at my little drum set until I mic the thing up and the kick is like a howitzer. I played a 24x16 inch kick for years before making the switch to the small kit and never looked back. I've used the same kit on three different records and 100's of live shows. One of the advantages of small kicks in the fact that it cuts a bit of the bass out and gets it out of the way of the actual bass player in a mix which is what your engineer would typically do anyway so I count that as a plus as well.
Great Video! I'm in the market for a new kit so I may just get my next kick with a 20x14.
I really loved this experiment, it's amazing the difference between each other. Pure drumming gold, well done Joel!!
Fantastic job on this! I really appreciate your attention to detail and accounting for all of the potential variables. Would love to have heard the kick with individual hits in addition to the context of the grooves but still, this was great. Cheers! -Ben
This is awesome! Great comparison! Great info! THANX!!
Got to the end and I loved this experiment! Please keep doing what you’re doing!
I love the approach that you take when testing. I have been playing for 58 years, and have played several brands of drum sets and sizes of kicks. I always came back to 14" depth bass drums. The last kit that I bought, after being allowed to A-B test several sets, has a 20" kick. As purchased, the kick was a 16" depth and is my favorite bass that I ever owned. It's punchy and authoritative, and super easy to mic up, and works with big band music as well as trio/quartet stuff unmiked. For years I've wanted to have it cut down to 14" depth, but at this stage the cost is not worth the return. I totally love and appreciate what you do and how you do it! Keep it coming! Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! Yes, 20" drums are quite versatile... head selection and tuning can make them surprisingly 'BIG' sounding! Much easier to carry around too!!
Thank you so much for being here and sharing!!
Wow 58 years! Respect !! i just past 40 years
This was an excellent demonstration and the amount of work involved is amazing. Regardless of which side of the coin anyone chooses, you have knocked this out of the park. Thank you!
Made it to the end! Great, great video!
Really great video with clear result. This has been a lot of work. Thank you for this!!!!
I hope you do an episode like this on the depth of toms. Not just how the depth of say, a 14" diameter tom would sound if it were 10" deep vs 12" deep, but also why we accept a different depth to diameter ratio for rack toms vs floor toms. I'd think to match a 14" x 10", your 16" floor tom would be 16" x 11.5".
You're speaking to a kindred spirit! I have long wondered about the role consistent ratio plays in tom sizes. Floor toms were always (traditionally) so much deeper with respect to rack toms, and I personally struggle more with getting great tones from a 16x16 floor tom than I do any traditional depth rack tom.
The 10/12/14 toms that came with the kick I used in this video are going to be the subject of an upcoming video. I have had Zoog cut them down to shallow depths (with similar ratios). I can't do a before/after, since I have already cut the shells down, but I'm wanting to see how shallow toms behave, overall... just generally put them through multiple tunings and muffling to see what they're like. I probably should have done a before/after, but too late now. Would have been a terribly long video if I had anyway, as I plan to do a lot with them as is. Hopefully that will be useful and interesting to folks.
@@drumdotpizza I look forward to watching that episode.
I have a few “short stack” toms and I’ve found that they’re more punchy and seem to sustain a little longer. They also seem to have a quicker response, as well as a fuller sound at lower volumes compared to traditional depths. Great video! Cheers!
Lol, DIGITAL DRUMS , THATS THE ONLY WAY !
Love your content Joel and this is no exception (I made it to the end!) Thanks for taking the time to remove all of the 'yeah, but...' variables that would have detracted from the results - I'm sure we all realise just how time consuming this would actually have been to achieve. I also want you to know that I enjoy your videos so much over here in the UK, that when you release a new one, I purposefully wait until I have a cup of tea and some clear space before I start, so I can get the most out of it (a position previously exclusively held by the Drum Centre of Portsmouth in my house!) As for the drum size debate, I totally agree with your findings. I'm 53 and have had pretty much every make of kit in every size from 18" - 24" BD over the years. The size I keep returning to is 20x14 due to it's portability and tuning range. Playing off the head of an undampened Evans EQ3 front and back combo tuned to a medium tension gives massive results. Drop the tension and add some dampening results in a killer thud. I'll leave it there as I'm going on a bit. Keep up the great work and I look forward to the next high quality episode when you can.
Gr8 Joel! love your experiments. Keep em' going....
I'm so grateful that you are sharing your knowledge. It means a lot. Thank you!
Great testing! Younger me really liked the boomy sustain from the longer kicks. Today the shorter is so much more impactful: thunderous and gets out of the way. Perfect
The 14" sounds way more focused, that's really fascinating man. Good stuff, appreciate all your work here. :)
Great timing! Was discussing cutting my kick with my local drum repair guy
Just subscribed. Great channel for us drum nerds! Thanks for the great content. Keep it coming!
I have to say you are absolutely right. For years I played a Yamaha 20 x 18 kick I recently switched to a pearl masters 20 x 14 and I could not believe the difference in the sound and also the feel of the bass drum while playing the drums, the 14 is definitely a rounder maybe puncher, but also to my ear is full of sound and kickand the playability of it is just so much better. I absolutely love the 20 x 14.
Started out with a 22” x 14” bass drum. Upgraded to 24” x 16” double bass drums. They were still NEVER loud ‘bassy’ enough, and never had the old-school thumpy sound I craved. *So 26” inch it is!*
I always watch to the end Joel. Thank you for the great content.
just an awesome video, loved every bit. super entertaining and informative. subscribed!
Great A/B test! Also worthy to note the deeper kick drum picks up a lot more of the low-tuned snare drum. I’ve noticed this live with my mic’ed 22x18. Sometimes resonates with the bass guitar to the point of LF feedback. Another benefit - the shallower kick drum makes the whole kit sound tighter.
I have a 24x14 and a 22x12, and I love them. I've had a 24x20 and found it harder to play and travel with. Love the comparison.
Got to the end - this is astonishingly well made! thank you!
I got to the end! Great video, love your commitment to the whole process.
As someone who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s playing rock and metal, I had all the big deep drums. I am now on the 14” kick depth bandwagon. Currently using a 26x14, so much better (and easier to haul and place) than the 26x16 and 26x18 I had before. Sounds better too! I will admit for smaller 20/22” kicks, I do like the look of deeper shells though.
I've played 14", 16" and 18" deep bass drums, and I really love my 14" deep bass drum the most. Having said that... my 22x18"bass drum also sounds and feels amazing. I'm afraid to cut it down!
The old catalog pages and ads took me BACK! Great video man.
Don't cut down anything you already love... if it ain't broke don't fix it! 😀
I made it to the end!
Thank you for all the highly detailed and well thought out videos you’re making. I’m learning ALOT from you!!
I love hearing the comparison. Thank you for this video.
Great experiment! I personally play with both an 18x22 in 1 band and 14x24 in another and I like both for their unique qualities. With your experiment of using the same drum at different sizes, I actually preferred the 14 x 22. Good stuff!
Made it to the end.. I can't believe the results. What I get out of this experiment is that tonal wise the diameter changes that the most.. the depth changes the length of the note or sustain. The 18" depth has a clear sustain of the note and hangs around a bit longer while the 14" note hits and is gone much faster resulting in a much harder thump if you will.. interesting stuff. I think my 22"x16" is the perfect blend of these 2 aspects of a kick drum sound to my ears. Thanks for the effort sir.
Now I wish he had done 18", 16", and 14". 16" is likely to be a good blend of the best qualities of the 14" and the 18".
@@Stoovey24 totally agree
Insightful demo!
I always get to the end of drum videos!
Thank you for your content!! ❤️🥁❤️🥁❤️🥁❤️
This was fun. Thank you. I think I get how the 14" might sit prettier in a mix, but really dig the tone from the 18" drum. There are some overtones in the decay that really make my ears happy.
All in the ears of the beholder! I just wanted people to know the difference rather than be guessing. Nothing empirical, of course, but wanted something somewhat scientific to (hopefully) confirm what I have noticed over the last couple of decades.
Thanks for being here!!
To me the sound died inside the 18 inch deep drum. It had this anaemic splat sound.... at 14 inches it gave off a nice punchy knock.
IMO 14 is where it's at. If you want more resonance and overtones go up in diameter.
Great video Amigo! Really appreciate the experiment
The 18” depth lowered the sub frequencies by a whole step. Not sure if it’s worth it though since I usually prefer the playability and the portability of the 14” depth. Maybe 16” depth is the way to go!
They can also be a pain for us sound engineers, deeper kicks can easily muddy up the whole bottom end. Tighter sound is easier to control, there is less ringing and we can use more compression to dig out the snappiness without having that long reverberated tail. The lack of low end is not a problem, by far most often i have deep, deep cuts in the low end in the kick channel. Of course, it can be too short or there is no meat on the bones, so to speak but tighter kicks are better if there is decent PA. In very small stages, where kicks are not miced.. i would go with the biggest one you got.
@@squidcaps4308makes sense to me. That seems to line up with Joel’s analysis that the wood type is not affecting the sound that much in the studio due to all the coloration from the mics and processing. I heard the notion, from the Bob Gatzen drum tuning videos, that quieter drums such as birch were more desirable in the studio but now I’m not so sure. It seems like heads and damping, then micing and processing have the largest effect. Extra low sub frequencies could always be added in with EQ or created with a pitch shifter if desired like AC/DC did with their snare drum.
Hi Joel,
I’m 70 and new to drums. I made it to the end and like others really appreciate the content and truth that shines in your story line. You have been as objective as I think one can be. The comparison showed, to me, the “boom” is more and sounds richer in the 18” but shows also the punch that jumps in the 14”. I think both have a place and depends on the music and how you want the drum part to fit in with the complete orchestration of all instruments being utilized. Thanks for the content. As always it is enlightening.
I'm 74 and I've been playing since 1965 and still learning. I started in rock with a garage band and moved over to soft jazz.
If you think this is a lot of info, wait until you check out the effect of drum shells - different wood, different thickness, different amount of plies, different covers (wrap, lacquor, etc.) and shell bearing edges (33 degrees vs 45 degrees).
Then there are the snare drums with the same content as above PLUS the difference in types of metal, snare wires, snare throw-offs and dimensions.
When you think you start to feel confident, you discover the difference in heads'thicknesses, layers, plies and applications.
Then the millions of kinds of sticks.
Don't forget the brushes!
If you play in different venues, you will discover what happens when you play on or off stage, in rooms with carpet and curtains or in halls with no acoustics at all.
If you play jazz or rock with acoustic or amplified instruments at different volumes, everything changes.
Has your brain exploded yet? Don't panic. It's a wonderful trip that makes amusement parks seem dull.
Welcome to the strange world of drummers. We are all fun and crazy. Just recognize that we are all different and there is no single correct answer to anything. Just find out what fits you and scratches your itch.
Really useful stuff! Thanks!
Great video. Its nice to see this channel getting the views it deserves. Its surprising how much of an impact this makes.
I've had several 22x18 bass drums and never really loved them. I tried a 26x14 and fell in love. I've since tried to get shallow depth bass drums. I think it has something to do with the shallower depth having less air to move to activate the resonant head. Enjoyed the video, thanks!
Yep, I think having the relatively loose resident head closer to the batter head is the key!
Forget the size of a kick drum, I think we should be appreciating the size of your snare shelf instead lol. I have two snares I like to swap out with each other whenever I want some different tones, but the amount of snares you have is simply awesome man. I bet owning this many drum kits really helps dissolve any morsel of monotony or fatigue that might come from hearing the same tones all the time during practice sessions.
Can I have you email my wife with your perspective?? 🤣🤣
You're not far off with your reasoning.... I love drums, all kinds, and I find something special about even the most mundane of snare models (I have more than a couple of very inexpensive entry-level drums that I appreciate for certain applications). This makes it hard to thin the heard, which I need to do on occasion, because it just gets silly after awhile (see also my listings on Reverb). But yes, I was always the kid who found a use for all 64 Crayon colors, and not much has changed.
Thanks so much for being here!!!
I have 2 snares, a supraphonic and a dust collector
@@patdeniston3697 A dust collector? Oh, do tell!!! I've heard good things about those! 🙂 No joke, a couple of my favorite snare drums are the cheapest you can buy, but they have a certain charm that I find... well... charming. What is your dust collector??
Watched your video and appreciate your experiment and for sharing it with us!
Awesome video. Great job dude. I got to the end :D
In my experience no. Deeper bass drums produce a flabbier, less punchy tone, are harder to play and don't record as well. Edit: experience confirmed. I have an 18"X22" DW Performance I'm going to cut down to 14" as soon as I find someone to do it in my area. Got to the end!
Hi, Joel. I grew up in the era of 14" deep bass drums, and when the 16s and 18s started showing up I thought of it as more a marketing gimmick than a musical advancement. Now that I've watched this video, I realize that it's only 80% a marketing gimmick and 20% a sound enhancer that some drummers may like under some circumstances. If they can fit that oversized bass drum in their car, that is.
It's funny that when the 16 and 18 deep kicks became popular, the shallower rack toms also became more popular. I like it in the reverse myself, but it's difficult to find unless you go custom.
@@totigerus 16" bass drums became popular when power toms became popular. Drum companies added 2" to toms and bass drums (3" to toms if you're Tama). 18" bass drums became popular when DW introduced the FAST tom sizes, which are 1" shorter than power toms (9"x12", etc.). In between those two events, some time in the 80s, Yamaha got the idea to cut floor toms (which traditionally are square-sized) down by 2" and suspend them like rack toms, and DW did the same early on. DW's massive popularity in the early 90s caused everyone to follow suit, until proper floor toms came back into vogue in the early 2000s or so.
Beginning to end, awesome video
Hey Joel…I got to the end! Really cool experiment and very well done!🤘🏼 I’ve been looking at a shallower bass drum for a while after playing an A&F and was floored at how it felt and sounded. Thanks! Looking forward to watching more of your stuff!
Keep these full-length videos coming! Great stuff. I might be in the minority, but I much prefer the sustain/boom of the 18". I like the 14 punch as well, but give me that attack and resonance of the 18" all day.
Yep, confirmed for me - 18" for the win! It has more presence and depth (duh). More room turns out is more room (longer waves)... imagine that.
The 14-inch has more punch and sounds tighter to me. I actually preferred the 14. Thanks man that was cool 👍🏻
I watched your entire video. That was well done! I enjoy hearing how these variables change the tone so much.
Thank you for sharing this!
Thank you for this video~ Much appreciate the effort you put in the testing, which really a lot efforts! This video really helpful to me and I learn from you
The deeper one is for me! Nothing bad about the 14” though. Personal preference. I just felt the bigger guy was just deeper sounding and still retained the punch.
I got to the end brother, very informative as usual
Awesome analysis. Thanks. Like both depths.
Nice study. Thanks for the expertise.
Made it to the end. I'm still digging all the info, Joel, thank you!
Awesome video. What a great comparison. Thank you for your sacrifice.
Everything I heard and saw is instructive and necessary! I'm glad I was able to come across your videos!
Hey Man thanks for your time
Very cool and informative
You Nailed this, your time invested is appreciated.
I got to the end Joel! Great video!
I got to the end, man! Very interesting comparison. I dig the content so consider me officially subscribed
Hello Joel, made it through! Really enjoyed this video! Love the 14” depth bass drum. Not only do they sound great but they feel great too! Thanks!
Thank you Joel for all the effort. Excellent! I feel the 14" "speaks" more quickly.
thank you for the hard work and time putting this together to help us all see/hear what's what
Really great video. You can tell a big difference especially through good speakers!
Excellent video brother. I've been pretty convinced to downsize my bass drums and this is all the reaffirmation I need. Awesome!
Got to the end Joe, ha! Fascinating results!!!!
This video was such an informative watch.
Super interesting. Great video!
Yep. Great view. Liked, subscribed and looking forward to more. Thank you!
+1 for the deeper one. great vid! great performance! cheers!
Good video! I made it to the end! I've only ever played 16-inch deep bass drums, but I'm really digging the 14!
I got to the end, Joel. Interesting stuff .
Great video!!
This was a really awesome video and I love this type of content! You’ve got some great stuff on your channel. Also that snare sound is killer👌
Thank you so much!
Ahh, yes, the snare... the lowly 10-lug steel Tama Royalstar. I will likely feature that drum in a video at some point. Royalstar is a line that is quite misunderstood, and for good reason... I don't think Tama even knew what to do with it (is it professional? Is it entry-level? "Yes" to both depending on the era). That particular snare model is actually the identical drum as the 5" Imperialstar Powerline steel except for the use of motorboat lugs and a Royalstar badge. It's a sleeper as the Royalstar name often limits it resale value, but it's a killer drum!
Thanks for noticing that!!!
Thanks for taking the time. Well done and it confirms what I thought… with some actual proof!
Very cool video! Neither is a bad sound. Hard to choose from but awesome insight into the differences.
Excellent video!
As I understand it (and could be wrong), the 14" depth for bass drums was selected because it would fit through the doors of closets (40s, 50s 60s) homes for storage. The drum industry is driven a bit like the fashion industry where it periodically pushes a new trend to make their older designs appear outdated and drive new purchases (the old saying no change, no gain). Anyway thanks for this is a great comparison.
I had no idea. Interesting!!! Thank you for sharing.
I have that drum- i love it!! Thanks for the tip on sealing the inside shells!
Brother, that was eye opening! I was so wrong. Thank you very much!
Joel, thank you for making this video. It really surprised me. Completely changed what I thought I wanted for a kick in my next kit. BTW, I subscribed... looking forward to watching more.
Hey,thanks alott for this experiment,good idear and good realization.....
I made it to the end! I really appreciate how much work you put into these videos! Thanks man! God Bless!
May God bless you as well!!! Thank you for being here.
Hi man, I made it until the end! Really dig your content the most! My first set had a 22x16 bass drum, and always was struggling to get the sound I liked. Recently, I purchased a bob set which expanded with a couple of Tom’s and an additional 20” BD. Both DBs being 14” deep, both sounded better (and larger tuned low) than my 22x16 BD… It didn’t make sense to me, but it does now! Thx for enlightening me!!! Love to see your next video! Keep up the good work!!
i got to the end Joel! very interesting video!
Getting results that we expect is not a wasted test. It is nice to hear the difference so clearly.
...Joel, that is a fantastic Vid, thank you ever so much, cheers. Greetings from Germany.
Great video, again. Awesome to hear the same drum against itself for this topic and, man, what a difference!
Only found your channel this week but have already watched a bunch of videos all the way through! I'm very impressed by the production and level of knowledge you bring, cheers from Australia!
Thank you so much. So glad to have you along!!
Was interesting to hear how the fundamental pitch went up after the drum was cut down to 14". Was pretty stark in the A/B demonstration. Now I REALLY want to lay my mitts on a 14 inch deep kick. Thank you for the vid! Was very informative!
sounded like it went up by two semitones? I wish there had been a spectrogram in this video.
I got to the end Joel, and really enjoyed it!