It's Not You, It's Your Hoops | Season Three, Episode 24
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- If you continue to struggle with tuning a particular drum even after practicing and experimenting, it might not be your skills that are in question. Even subtle issues with a hoop being in round and flat can throw off the tenability of the drum. In this episode, we address ways to spot this issue and work around it.
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Signal chain:
Mics - Focusrite Clarett 8Pre USB & OctoPre - MacPro w/Pro Tools 12.8
Recorded at 48kHz / 24bit
Focusrite Clarett 8Pre USB tinyurl.com/Cl...
Focusrite Clarett OctoPre tinyurl.com/Cl...
Full kit: AKG C414 (ear-distance)Snare drum & tom tom close mics: Shure SM57
Bass drum: AKG D112 (at mic port) + KAM R3 Ribbon microphone ~8” away from reso
Drumheads:
Snare: Evans G12 batter / Snare Side 300 reso
Toms: Evans G12 coated batters / G1 clear resos
Kick: Evans EQ4 Coated batter / EQ3 no-port reso
Drums:
Drummers World Nesting Kit w/Pearl Masters Custom Extra Maple Snare
Cymbals:
14” Zildjian New Beat Top (as bottom cymbal) w/custom modified top cymbal and a ride cymbal custom modified by Jesse Simpson
Hosted by: Cody Rahn
Production: Ben O'Brien Smith @ Cadence Independent Media
Production Partners: Evans Drumheads, Promark Drumsticks
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I have a Ludwig Acrolite that sounded bad for decades until I hauled it out of the attic and replaced the warped hoops on it. Now it sounds good as new!
This is so true.... I had a vintage Slingerland snare that had not been used in some time. It sounded bad and I could not figure what was causing the problem. I replaced heads, snares, tuned and re-tuned it still sounded dead. I asked a drum builder friend if he could redo the bearing edges.... he checked it out and said.... the hoops are not straight... replaced the hoops and BAMMO!! Now I have an awesome vintage Slingerland snare.
I had the same experience with a vintage Slingerland. It has single flanged hoop. The state it was in was basically untunable.
Buddy threw his across the stage for a reason.
@Jasiu 2.3
Thanks again..still in hospital with covered 19. They said i can go home 5 days l am week..but can't wait to sit behind my kit.thanks again from san.fransico.. best drum Channel ever
Hang in there, Johnny! Get well soon. 👊🏻🥁❤️
Something to look forward to-when you get out, you’ll be among the rest of us struggling and troubled grailers!
Feel better, good vibes and prayers to you 🤙
Wishing you a fast recovery! 🍻
I hope you’re feeling better Johnny! And I hope your drums continue to bring you joy forever!
This was super informative! I discovered the bent hoop phenomenon years ago. I've routinely been asked to help tune drums for backline companies, theaters, churches, studios, and even other drummers. About 12 years ago I came across a 13" tom that I just could not get to sound good, no matter what I did. I checked spacing of the lugs, that the drum was round, bearing edge was good. Then I took the bottom hoop and put it on top. Voila! Perfect! I checked that other hoop on a stainless steel table in the church kitchen and sure enough it was out of whack(pun intended).
I would like to add that a drum dial will also help to identify irregularities in your hoop by the tension you’re putting on a particular lug versus the measurement shown on the dial. You will notice that you’re either having to really crank a lug or it will be about to fall out to get the dial measurement to become equal. When that happens I would say it is either a bad hoop or bad bearing edge. The good thing with the drum dial is despite this you can still get the drum in tune by only paying attention to the dial’s measurement despite the unequal amount of tensioning you have to apply around the drum.
I 100% agree with you. Sometimes people hesitate to change the hoops because it may change the sound, but it is much better with the brand new hoops in their shape. I often see deformed 1.6mm steel hoops on the "used" drums and recommend to change it to 2.3 mm stiffer hoops.
I was having a hard time tuning my Catalina Maple. One day I noticed the hoops had out of round spots. I ended up buying a full set of S Hoops for the kit in part because they were cheaper than die cast, more open than die cast and more focused than the triple flanged that came with the kit. They tuned a hell of a lot better than the stock hoops. I do notice the heavier weight to the S Hoops and you can’t put a mic clip on it but I can live with that. If they work for Gavin Harrison they should work for me.
I have a diecast that started having the head pulling through suddenly at a gig. I didn't think it would be likely that the diecast hoop would warp, after years I decided to try to bend it back and it bent easily. I posted in a forum online and someone commented that the 80s hoops (when my Gretsch drums were made) were made of brass. I thought they were always made of zinc.
Very early Gretsch Die Cast hoops (after they moved from clips and straight hoops), were steel alloy, later moving to the industry standard cast zinc alloy. They have never used brass to create a die cast hoop. They have had some brass and gold PLATED hoops, but your 80s Gretsch toms likely had zinc alloy chromed hoops. And you're correct, they aren't difficult to distort, given enough force, but far tougher than 1.6mm (standard) or even 2.3mm (super/ power/mighty) triple flanged hoops. 👍🏻
@@bigkickleo how do you explain the ease in bending them back?
@@NEALBABBITT I've had to reshape warped DC hoops that were certainly zinc (2000s)
And they seemed relatively easy to move, esp with one end in a vice
Great video!
I've been trying to avoid dealing with this problem with my 13x9 WFL rack tom that has non-original Made in Taiwan hoops. You know, in lot of times, we settle with the sound that is good, but once you achieve superb sounds... then there is no way back!
Thanks so much for offering some clarity into this!
mannn THAT BASS DRUM SOUNDS SOO GOOOD !!!
Way too much sustain in that bass drum
I dunno why this never occurred to me, I've had a 13 inch Tama tom for like 15 years now that never sounded right no matter what I did. Time to take a peek at those hoops.
I had an early 90s Superstar 9x12" rack tom that never sounded right - it was the factory bearing edge. Only one on the kit that was janky (22,12,13,16,18, 6.5 snare) 🙄
It’s the hoops! It’s the hoops! Definitely not me! I definitely know who to tune drums for sure! LOL
2:44 those sound really really really close to me.
almost identical to me.... didnt know I have such bad hearing sigh
They are a full semitone apart, that's a lot.
Physics: Hoops are critical. Higher gauge 2.3mm flanged vs cast zinc hoops are better than cheap 1.6 stock flanged. Recommend Tama and Pearl.
Cheap hoops physically bend and deform (no longer perfectly flat and round) with regular use, and become problematic for consistent tuning.
Love Tama’s diecast hoops, never had issues. Now flimsier flange hoops found on entry level kits definitely give more issues personally. However I really like flange hoops for classic funk or jazz kits, has a nice open ring to it and rebound. But for heavy music its diecast all day.
Hoop story time: I have a '55 WFL 20" floor tom that came with a non original hoop on one side meant for a bass drum type head... not the typical tom head with the skinny rim. I'd gotten new heads for the drum before it arrived and was getting ready to put them on for a gig I had that night when I discovered the problem. I was an hour late to the little jam/pack-up session because I resorted to busting out the angle grinder with a 1/4" thick wheel to cut the hoop into 8 sections and removing just enough circumference to get it to sit properly after I had welded it back together... that was 5 years ago, meant to be a quick fix for a gig.... I'm still rocking that hoop!!!
Nice! Great to have the skills with welding and experience to support this sort of work.
Love this episode! such a necessary subject. Tks for the video, love the channel
I like 2.3 on snare drums but went from 2.3 to 1.6 on the toms w single ply heads. Opened up my 6ply Ludwigs significantly. These drums are heavy to begin with.This was an easy way to lighten them up. Beneficial as far as resonance goes (for me at least).
I remember this episode often. Since I first watched this, I’ve bought all manor of drums… and many came with cheap or messed up hoops. If there’s one thing I personally would like to pass on to anyone getting into Drums, it’s be sure your hoops are a good quality and in good shape. I’ve come to the point where I only buy 2.3mm thickness for toms and snares, even though some like a thinner snare hoop. What a difference a hoop makes!!!
I have a very flat counter top I test my hoops on, that pretty much tells me how much trouble one is in. But… also… an otherwise inexpensive drum can be made much better with good hoops. Rant complete.
Edit: I can’t imagine a better, more well spoken person to represent the Drumming community than Cody. Also… and it’s important… you know you can believe the things he tells you. Even if you disagree, you know he genuinely tells it as he sees it, and he knows his stuff. It’s good to know when you’re fighting a problem that’s invisible and elusive, as a Drum problem can be.
This is super awesome thank you! I spent hours battling a set of Sonor 'Hella' hoops at the weekend and I'm fairly sure it was how stiff they are and my inexperience tuning up mahoosive hoops like that. But I am gonna go back and check them now lol.
What y'all do on this channel helps a lot of drummers cuz I done seen a lot of out of shape drums that look like 😦what happened
Get your all new S.L.A.D Hoops! Available in Triple Flange and Diecast! Now with less Shenanigans!! And how!!
Just saying if this were on a t-shirt with old-timey illustration, I'd buy it. Lol! Great video. I'll have to take a look at my Tama Diecasts. Even if just for practice and better understanding. Thank you for making me a better drummer and more informed about my instrument. You guys are the best!!
I have a snare drum, and one of my floor toms, that are weird to tune. It takes a very long time, and the tension to pitch seems off. I will try some new hoops and see if I can tune those drums as easily as my other drums. I hope, it’s the hoop!
Just wanna give a shout out for the awesome grooves that you play in this and many of your other videos! I’m going to take them for inspiration and try to practice them! Also thank you so much for this video. I recently bought a used Ludwig acrolite snare (cheap) and on one side, the snare strings were actually caught in the little snare hole (new drummer here, I don’t know what that hole is called) so the throw off was not doing anything, and turns out yep it was a bent hoop!
Thank you for the video you are absolutely right, I had problems like you tuning drums and also started to dislike some of my drums and I found out at the end that my hoops are the problem and my cases are the reason .I use hard cases for my gigs and as it is when you come off stage sometimes change overs are quick and people try to help. my drums are sideways in the cases which means if someone placed the cases heavily on the floor then the hoops hit the floor sideways which distorts them but not in height but they become a bit out of round and not just in one place but in many I have the cast hoops from Tamer myself and even with a ruler and with measuring I have hardly been able to adjust any changes but the hoops are totally broken which I only found out by changing them at a certain point so thank you very much I think that's exactly what happens to many of them so the hoops are damaged and I now stop using hard cases and prefer to use padded cases. so I thank you very much I think that's exactly why the hoops are damaged and I now stop using hard cases and prefer to use padded bags there is now a good mixture of both but I would really recommend everyone not to use hard cases without inner padding the drums are protected from external influences but not from hitting the floor. Sorry for my english I not a native speaker ;)
I recieved a Ludwig evolution kit for Christmas and neither of the Tom’s were flat on either side but when I measured from one side to the other it measured right wich meant they were consistently out of level so I got a piece of granite from a local counter top place and some sand paper and spun them applying even force and sas able to get them perfect I haven’t checked my floor Tom yet or my snare but I’m going too and also found some of the hardware was not even snug on inside of the shells a lot to learn I have
And it almost seems like the hoops are a lot bigger than the shells
That bass drum sounds great. You should do an episode on the nesting drums.
My brass Pearl Sensitone Classic II has die cast rims. They get bent out of shape slowly over a year. It takes two hours to get them flat and round. Especially the snare side head. Probably because I use your snare side head tuning method. Leveling everything. However, after I get the hoops round again, it's totally worth it, especially with the leveling of the snare side head.
Not sure of my hoop material. Magnets don't stick. With all of its troubles, it's worth it because the sound is often complimented on!
I'm so happy to see you talk about this topic! This channel is ahead of it's time! Saves me hours of Internet reseasch. And it's uncanny that your videos always coincide with what my current problems are. Thank you so much! Rock on!
Glad you get help from this channel, but I hardly think it's ahead of it's time. Most of these same issues have been discussed in modern drummer magazine in the 70s and 80s.
What method are you using to flatten them?
@@NEALBABBITT It was new info to me. I still never hear about it or read about it, which is strange if it had already been written about years ago. It's a super important factor in sound quality.
@@jaseyraw8843 Bending over my leg and pulling and pushing with my hands. But ever so gently. It doesn't take much pressure. It takes a lot of time and re-measuring. I found out that my die cast hoops are made of zinc.
I may have ruined by snare side hoop on a 6 lug Slingerland.
I tightened it to even out the wrinkles,
when I should have treated it with a heat gun.
Yes! Great topic 👍👍👍
Thanks for this video.
I’ve had a smallish dimple in my 16” floor tom that’s given me issues ever since getting the kit.
For a while I’ve just been using a gel or tape in front of that spot on the head to ease that funkiness and I’ve had success so far with that fix, but I think sooner than later I’d like to just replace a couple of the stock triple flanged hoops.
You sound like a newscaster. Great voice!
So I tend to associate tuning problems with 13” toms but this definitely gives me a new angle of attack on fixing my sound. I also had a terrible time with my 18” floor tom I couldn’t get the thing to sing and went as far as to buy new hoops. Even with the pearl suspension feet it was dead. Several forum posts and days of tuning and re-tuning I hit the drum while holding it on one leg and it came to life. I ended up turning two floor tom legs inward with the feet pointing as close to the middle of the drum as possible while not falling over. It takes a bit more energy than my 16 but it has a beautiful bloom and all the low end I could ever want.
Don't forget Emp/Ambassador Vintage heads are good for old out of round kits.I have one on my Star Classic(Birch) snare which is in really good condition and it sounds great.🤖📼⚡
That's one of the reasons we love Evans heads- they all have an improved fit because of the collar design. No need to purchase a specific "vintage" model.
I'm in the early stages of trying to diagnose my 16 ft Starclassic Bubinga Dicast hoop. 1 lug isn't tightening enough to tune. I'll check the hoop against granite, and hopefully that's the issue. The hrad seats fine, so hopefully I can get the hoop to tune.
Hoop hoop hooray!
This is an awesome video. I enjoy your content
Damn, maybe it’s just me, but I think this is what’s wrong with my snare drum. I have spent hours tuning, replaced top and bottom heads, and replaced snare wires to try and get a good dry sound without weird undertones. Tuning my snare has been super hard, granted I am relatively new to drums, but have played guitar and bass for years.
So once i bought a maple pearl session custom kit brought it to the studio got new heads and while trying to tune it i spent all day long and it sounded like a cardboard box and plastic buckets kept trying to tune it in the studio for weeks and no luck i started to hate the thing so when i had enough of it i sold it to a friend for $300 years later i formed a band ( with the kit's buyer ) and i had to play on the untunable kit once again this time before changing heads i took appart every tom and placed them on a granite table and holly shit the bearing edges and hoops where completly off so i lighlty sanded the bearing edges with a kick head carbord box with 4sheets of sanpaper glued to it and sort of flatten the toms then checked the hoops and sort of flatten some of them put the heads back tuned the kit with ease and regretted selling the kit for so cheap lol
Im still using that kit today at his studio hahaja it sounds greate
I have this problem but not on my snare, it's on my 14-inch floor tom.
Why does the test at 7:10 remind me of the James Bond theme?
Hi there.
Off topic question:
Memory locks. How to setup the kit the same way, if all hardware is in a broken down state or compacted into itself. I'm not quite sure why memorylocks are a thing if you have to break all the stands down into pieces as opposed to just nesting or compacting.
I usually mark with marker and or gaff tape.
Break all hardware down, compacting all stands.
Put a video out on hardware / memorylocks I'd like to see what the pro's do
Thanks for all the info.
-drumrandy
I ordered a drum set and the hoop on the floor tom was alittle tweaked/crimped on the top but didn't affect the way it sits on the head, so....😏
I have a wondering - what happens if you use a drum dial? Could this account for why lugs may register the same dial tension but not be the same pitch?
In this case, you’d see a correlation between the pitch variation and the Drum Dial reading. Because of the resolution, using your ear or a pitch-based tuner is will better account of this variation if there’s an issue with one of your hoops. In the end, it’s best to make sure that your equipment is in a good, fully-functioning state.
I don't hear differen't pitches between those lugs :(
I love this guy? Who is he? I bet he plays bass AND guitar.
Ha! And yeah, he does :) -Cody
I wonder if you use single flanged hoops that if the clips would break before the actual hoop?
Hey same what happened to my snare , hoops portion where the lug’s are touching the snare head batter side . Tuning is hard because the hoops touching the head making a harmonic sound same on my snare side too need to cranked it to level to the edge.
5 months ago i got a fresh head and its in good condition then in 2 months i noticed , why is one side of my drumhead has a little bit of a stretch than the others then i noticed , even if i seat the head properly and i lighted up the bearing edge why does it still have big gaps even if i tensioned it evenly , i even touch the head where the lugs are close to the bearing same tension but the problem was the hoops i checked the hoops and it has a bit of a wobble
and in 5 months i think , bam , the film is seperated from the ring then i think this is also my mistake because 1.I tune the drums 1x every 2 weeks i remove everything and clean
2.i bought a thick head (i didnt know that head was thick) and tune it high (D note)
then i got a thin head was much responsive and crunchy it achieved what i wanted but thedrum hoops worry me i had a trauma about it and my tension rods needed grease so it can screw in again and the bottom right of my snare drum always has a large gap even if i checked the drumheads so the problem was me tensioning unevenly just to match the pitches i was wrong and resulted in 1 tension rod that cant screw in i tested 1 part of the lug with every rods it was fine except that 1 lug and know i tension it evenly because the pitches cant match so my father seated the drumhead and used a ruler and noted each one then i tuned it on (C Note) it was fine but still has the gap then i tuned in lower in (B Note) was also good sounding anyway this was my experience now i will tune it once every end of the month and clean it too
I have a Gretsch Brooklyn maple snare that is acting strange. Like you described in the video, the distance from the bearing edge to the hoops are not even. I know that from looking through the transparent snare side head. What is weird is that janky uneven tension is noticeable from the batter side as well, and i know it's not the rods (lithium grease: check). It's driving me crazy. Thing is the drum comes with old school "Stick Chopper"-hoops that is not the most accessable. Do you think the drum would be okay with a die cast or triple flange hoop? Or worse case scenario, could this be a case of the drum shell itself being warped? A guy at my local drum shop guessed that could be the case. I really hope that the problem is in the hoop.
Does rusty/oxidated hoops affect the sound?? @soundslikeadrum
So do I replace just the top hoop or both with die cast?
You only need to replace the hoop that’s damaged.
Hi.
Wouldn't measuring the rim of the hoop, as you tune resolved some of the issues of a bent (or tacoed), hoop?
You want to make sure it's round before you start tensioning the drum. You're just giving yourself more problems if you try to do it as your tensioning it. It's not difficult bending it back, it just takes a bit of fiddling around. It should easily fit a new head and spin easily without forcing it on the head.
Does it matter if the hoops are not completely flush with the shell? Just got a new yamaha kit and the wooden hoops don't sit flush.. There doesn't seem to be any issues tuning or with the sound it just bothers me a bit since it's brand new. Am I worrying over nothing?
When you say “flush with the shell,” do you mean that the top of the hoop is not flush with the bearing edge of the drum? That’s a good thing! Some wood hoops can get dangerously close but it’s time to get some new heads if you’re tensioning the hoops down to the point where they’re sitting flush with the bearing edge. In addition to their primary role, hoops serve as a means of protection for the bearing edge. If they’re at the same level as the edge, they aren’t able to adequately protect the shell and rimshots would be almost impossible.
@@SoundsLikeADrum Thanks for the reply - Sorry I should have specified - it's only the bass drum hoops -
On my previous yamaha the bass drum hoops sat flush with the shell more or less but this time they stick out slightly
Thanks for the clarification, though the same still holds true. If the hoops were flush with the bearing edge of the bass drum then you’d have nothing to clamp a bass drum pedal to.
@@SoundsLikeADrum Turns out the bass drum was warped. Very annoying..
Yes! Great episode! I’ve been wondering about my hoops on my acrolite. I replaced the originals as they were severely out of round. I tried to bend them back in shape but they were so far gone. The ones I replaced them with were very cheap generic triple flange. I was wondering if the quality of the hoops make much difference to the sound? Can you get heavier, higher quality triple flange hoops? Mine when you tap them when they are off the drum are pretty high pitched. I took off some triple flange off another drum and they were a lot lower in pitch. Maybe they are better quality. Do you think the specific pitch of the hoop influences the sound as well??
you may have bought 1.6mm triple flange, they’re thinner and offer much more resonance. However, some may find they have more overtones than the thicker 2.3mm or 3.0mm triple flange hoops.
Hi, great video
I wonder if you need to change the reso hoops to or just the batter side hoops?
You only need to replace a hoop that's causing an issue. That may be the batter and/or the reso.
@@SoundsLikeADrum got it!
Thank you for your answer
Can you get vintage sound with die cast hoops😳😳😳🇨🇦🇨🇦
Definitely! Lots of vintage drums that generated those older sounds had them, Gretsches in particular! -Cody
Can anybody recommend a reputable site for good quality drum hoops?
Gibraltar makes pretty solid after market hoops for cheap-ish (reasonable prices). They’ve served me well
Dfd...drum factory direct...is the best place for rims...huge inventory ..all sizes & types. All priced low as hell too...check it out...i replaced all my tom batter hoops with 2.3 tripple flanged ..vs the 1.6 that come on the yamaha..btween 10-16$ depending on size..good quality too..have had for almost 2yrs now..chrome still looks new..i got chrome..but they had black & copper..as well same price..tons to choose from..
@@seanbaker6192 thank you so much! Appreciate the feedback! Stay safe and well!
@@dantelamusta anytime..👍👍😁✔✔🎵🎵🎵
mane growin' up in urban gospel environment as a drummer, i've always run into tha most god awful drums and when i tune them, they sound like a completely different drumset but not as good as well taken care of drums like what i have at home and i've seen some hoops which are bent out of place too but some which aren't bent are still sounding awful and then there's tha lug situation where they're break especially on off brand cheap drumsets where they're so cheap, replacement parts are very limited :/
Alright so I think I’m having this problem with an old 80’s acrolite. It’s one of the textured finishes and no matter what I do, it sounds like absolute garbage. Getting ready to sell it, unless there’s something else to do.
Entirely possible assuming you've ruled out heads and shell as the issue! Best of luck!
If you're handy and patient, you can straighten them... I fixed my Pioneer's hoops that we're ballooned between each lugs... There's only six of them, so cranking the drum can easily deform the hoops. I used a vise and taped 2 blocks of soft wood on each end of one jaw and one in the middle of the other jaw. Using that to gently push the kinks out to restore the original nickel on brass hoops saved the drum.
Yep- this is definitely possible but risky. If you’re okay with the possibility of destroying them beyond repair, go for it!
@@SoundsLikeADrum It's finnicky, but more controllable than bending it over your knee or trying to get it back into round by pressing it against the floor. With the vise, you can nudge it back 1/4 turn at a time without fear of making it worse. It's meant as a way to save the original vintage hoop... The only other option is to toss it in a closet to sell with the drum to keep the vintage mojo and replace it with a new one in the interim.
@@G60syncro True- though, based on how many people watching our videos experience challenges with other things that we may consider relatively simple or even fool-proof, the recommendation we'd make would be to take it to someone who really knows what they're doing and has experience with this (particularly if we're talking about a vintage drum). We're all for DIY but the risks, especially in the hands of the inexperienced, need to be stressed here.
First of all press like And Watching
👊🏻🥁❤️
why did he randomly laugh at some points? 😂
Probably because this is one of those issues that can drive you crazy until you figure it out. I'm thinking this is probably the problem on my floor tom that just doesn't sound right.
In my eyes diecast hoops are harder to tune✌️
Maybe it's the quality of the drums, but I bought a Tama Birch/Walnut Starclassic kit about six month back and they're outfitted with die cast hoops, but they sound amazing with minimal fuss.
Just asking... "In your eyes"? As in - "it would appear"? Or from your experience? Actually: IF the drumhead is in good shape and not distorted or out of round and consistent from hoop to collar, AND if the shell is in round and the edges are level/ true, AND if the lugs have been drilled/ located accurately - Cast hoops would aid in getting the drumhead tensioned evenly/ assist in getting and keeping the drum in tune/ drumhead tensioned evenly. From my experience - On my various drums, I have: Die Cast hoops, generic 3.0mm triple flange, DW True Hoops (3.0mm as well), 2.3mm power hoops, 2.3mm stick chopper style, and 4mm no flange w clips. DC is still easier than triple flange, because the triple flange flexes/ distorts more readily, especially under heavy rimshots. Your MMV I guess. 🤘🏻🦁
@@theHumanBryno True!
Great content for the people but seriously....STOP SAYING 'HOOP' LIKE STEWIE GRIFFIN SAYS 'COOL WHHHHHIP'