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Star Trek The Next Generation Lamentations S7E14: Sub Rosa
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- čas přidán 27. 12. 2020
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"We have women in our audience who are here for Star Trek, so let's give them a romance novel they could get anywhere else and not Star Trek, which they are here for."
They couldn't get it anywhere else if they didn't want to plough through the 800+ pages of Anne Rice's "The Witching Hour", at any rate!
@@johnpotts8308 No, Anne Rice is a much higher caliber than this. This is Cassandra Claire level.
"Actually romance is boring, let's replace the romance with creepy creepy borderline rape."
There is a longstanding trope in the "romance" genre (massively pre-dating 50 Shades) of the incredibly romantic domineering male who does what a neutral third party would classify as raping the female lead, but because she retroactively consents after he's forcibly ravished her, it's incredibly romantic instead. That's not the only problematic "romantic" trope - there's also the "it's not stalking if she likes it" big gesture.
In general, the classic female lead in the "romance" genre is heavily repressed, in denial about her own sexuality, and waiting for a caveman to come along, bonk her over the head with his club and drag her back to his cave where she can indulge her passions without any guilt because she's being forced into it, and wait for Stockholnm Syndrome to kick in. The difference between horribly abusive and manipulative rape and incredibly romantic "forceful seduction" is entirely in how the woman feels about it the next day (or the next week once the withdrawal from the addictively pleasurable sex she's forced to endure has had time to kick in).
From the description, it does sound like Sub Rosa comes very close to being a typical "romance" (or "mummy porn") story except that Beverley kills her rapist tragically rather than living happily ever after with him.
"Mummy porn"?
the way to show a male audience why this trope is stupid, is to make this show:
a gay guy forces himself on a straight guy.... and after the grape, the straight guy falls for the gay guy and becomes gay himself LOL
*romantic music plays the whole time
Fitting that a train wreck episode ends out a train wreck year.
I don't think 2020 is effectively done yet... maybe on 1-21-21, once Trump is nothing but a bad taste to be washed out of our collective mouth, we can start moving on in earnest.
@@oddish4352 As long as he stays defeated
When there's somethin' strange, in the solar system, who ya gonna call?
Doctor Crusher!
Dare I say, "50 shades of Grey" fandom would be okay with this.
Is there even such a thing as a 50 shades of Grey fandom?
@@milamila1123 There SHOULDN'T be, but there is.
I'm female, and I think this episode is "so bad it's good!" I know it's terrible, but it's just so silly and I can't bring myself to hate it.
I believe you would be such a great voice actor. You have the voice range and the emotional range to voice some great characters.
As a scotsman (never thought I'd say that), this episode is bizarre in that whole "Space Scotland" thing (and absolutely laughable because I find the accents hilarious). With a Scottish space ghost.... called "Ronin", who isn't played by an actor portraying a Scotsman.... A Japanese title for a masterless samurai, from space scotland.... now, the gothic horror angle Berman and Taylor talk about is bollocks because Catspaw from TOS is gothic horror and one of my mums favourite episodes of Star Trek, but she hates this. And my mum loves gothic romance.... but then, gothic romance doesn't have your female lead talking to the ships counsellor about how she just read a particularly "erotic" section of her grannys diary and talks about getting off on it. Creepy if a man says it, creepy if a woman says it. It's a script with all the problems you can have.
But yeah, I find enjoyment from this episode due to how it feels incredibly stupid and campy, despite the obviously dark implications involving Beverly Crusher. But then, my brain is so screwed up that I tend to think in the details of sets and things vs the characters and emotional journeys. Btw, the houses over here don't look like they're from the 18th century. I kept wondering if they have an inside toilet in crushers grans house because I did a lot of hill walking and it looks like it's based on the Bothy's (only more fancy) you get up in the mountains which were old farm houses that hillwalkers can use. No plumbing. No central heating. No toilet..... Yeah. Plus the scene where they dig up Beverlys grandmother tickles the absurdity I've had with the issues of Wuthering Heights where Heathcliffe does something similar, and I have quite a dark sense of humour. Like... I laughed a lot at that whole thing. My brain won't let me take it seriously and I don't know why
Friggin Japanese named space ghost in a space candle on Space Scotland..... It's so dumb.
Thanks for this Lore, I've been waiting to hear your thoughts on this one!
34:22 - Lore mentions that Season Seven, on the whole, hasn't been as bad as he remembered. As something of a defender of Seven Season, that makes me happy.
For all the grief the season gets, it did give us some legitimately great episodes ("Dark Page", "The Pegasus", "Preemptive Strike", "All Good Things...") and some good/enjoyable ones ("Gambit, Parts I and II" "Parallels", "Lower Decks", "Masks", "Journey's End", "Firstborn"). I've never understood the level of hate it gets.
Of course this was a lamentation. How could it not be?
Even structurally, this is just failing on every level: Crusher's granny dies, so rather than Crusher taking a few days in a shuttle to go to the funeral we decide to divert the flagship of the Federation. Then we spend 5 minutes where basically nothing of note happens. Then, for no particularly good reason, Picard decides to delay whatever the Enterprise was supposed to do next. Then, nobody even notices Crusher acting really really strangely, plus they're portraying a completely non-consensual relationship as romantic, and nobody even thinks of employing, y'know, a tricorder or any of the other tech available to them to figure out what's going on. Troi's magic emotion sensors don't notice anything is off. LaForge and Data can't figure out anything that Ronan is doing.
And then we learn that someone was portraying this as a romance plot, when it definitely isn't.
"None of the creative staff have ever spoken badly of this episode..." I thought he was going to say, none of the creative staff have ever spoken to a woman...
I'm inclined towards "so bad it's good" for this episode. Lines like "I fell asleep reading a particularly erotic passage in my grandmother's journals" get that reaction from me. That said, I do think there's some genuinely nice atmosphere created for some of the haunting scenes, even if the dark and stormy night is a bit cliched. I'd definitely put this one on instead of the tedious "Force of Nature" given a choice, but I can see how it got lamentation status.
Summary: Beverly Crusher attends her grandmother's funeral, but a mysterious entity that inhabited her grandmother is now focusing on her (Ghost-sex! The tombstone-joke is the best part of this episode. Problem is, you have to have seen it to understand all the fuzz :-)
Lol, that lamentation was so predictable. Thanks for the entertainment Lore! Damn shame that we have to live in a timeline where Picard and Crusher didn't get together but trash like this exists. Also, I think it was important to mention Jeri Taylor pushing this as a gender thing. This seems to me like a weaker version of what happened with Ghostbusters 2016: slapping down justified criticism of a supbar artistic work as being against female empowerment or the assumed wishes of a female audience. It is so insidious because it does a massive disservice both to the valid and justified cause of gender equality and to the standards of filmmaking and what kind of quality an audience should expect from their entertainment. Just wanted to mention that. Happy holidays everyone!
Ghostbusters 2016 got slapped down because it was one, mediocre, two, an unnecessary remake of a modern classic, and three, it castrated male viewers (four very capable females and a ditsy male one in a subservient role). It deserved the pasting it got.
I'm female. Nope. I can enjoy something like "The Ghost and Mrs. Muir", but this isn't close.
It’s funny.. Gate McFadden now publicly talks about enjoying it and joking
I think I only watched "Sub Rosa" one time while binge watching my ST:TNG DVD collection circa 2007. Yesterday I could not have described any aspect of the episode other than it's a Beverly episode, and while I'm normally up for anything with Beverly Crusher I have never wanted to re-watch this episode even when I couldn't remember why. Thank you for the lamentation label on this one, I think it certainly fits.
47 Shades of Tartan. 🏴😜
Female here- It's a stupid episode I watch in a so bad it's good way. I feel bad for Gates McFadden.
I like the setting. The idea that the Federation has oddball subsets of their population who set up colonies based on their preferred aesthetics and sense of taste. An entire group of people who all said, "Hey, we want to make traditional space Scotland, only without the cold weather and modern technology." And the Federation, being post-scarcity, and always down for having colonists set up planets, just goes, "Sure, here you go, have a planet."
It really says something interesting about how the Federation works, and makes me wonder what other interesting colonies there are.
If nothing else, I love the aesthetic of this episode, or more specifically, of that colony. It's right up my alley.
Ooh - love me a lamentation.
Especially when LR really gets into it. While I don't judge Ronin quite as harshly as he does (it was merely a lifeform trying to stay alive), he's given me a different perspective to consider.
granny crusher is mentioned by beverly in season one "arsenal of freedom." but that's the only other time.
Ronin took over Beverly's mind against her will. When the mental takeover was complete, she was a willing participant in the physical relationship. However, she was able to shake off his influence later and destroy him. I'd say it was rape that she was able to overcome later when her own sensibilities overtook his influence.
On people respectfully disagreeing: "The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity. And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty."
On accepting a female Captain: Rachel Garrett.
On Duncan Regehr: Whether he is playing Ronen or Shakaar, or even Zorro, all I see when I look at him is Dracula, from his absolutely brilliant performance in Fred Dekker's "The Monster Squad".
Which is probably why I didn't mind the rapey elements of Ronen so much, because of the parasitic nature of the vampirism, yielding a situation in which neither participant had a choice. Which is merely a mitigation, not a justification.
But yes. Lamentation. Without question.
Wow. Knew this episode wasn't good the first time I saw it. But you've had much more insights into why this is than I did. When you pointed out Dr Crusher's comment at the end of this episode, my opinion went from "this is an unfortunately bad and quirky episode" to "this is a genuinely bad episode that should not have aired."
Silver lining. Maybe directing this steaming pile helped make Frakes a better director.
Lamentations to come, Masks and Emergence, any others people?
My girlfriend said about this episode "I didn't like it or hate it. I didn't understand how the episode related to the rest of the show. The one good part was the conflict between staying and inheriting family memories vs going with the ship."
I had always trumped up Troi's behavior in this episode to the fact that she herself was empathically addicted to Beverly's illusion of happiness that she didn't want to interfere with Beverly's behavior. That's the part of the story I wanted to see brought out more but then it wouldn't a bodice ripper (supposedly) romance. Just by your description of the story's ending, I do wonder if Crusher and Troi had been addicted to find a happy ending for her grandmother. But perhaps I'm giving the episode more credit than it deserves.
I forgot about the rape element in this episode. I now cannot in good conscience give her the nickname “Dr Crusher Ghost Fucker”
All I can think about when I remember this episode is the horribly mangled scott-ish (Yes, I do mean it that way) dude going "Dunnae light tha dam canle!"
Did anyone else have the VHS box set with two episodes each that are features of the main characters? This one was on it as one of Beverley's? I think the other one was Remember Me. I have no idea why they chose this.
Thank FUCK this is a lamentation!
Yeah this is a bad one, haven't seen it since I first saw it on TV and I had to look it up, as soon as you said about the green ghost, I recognized it, and thought "uh."
I knew this was going to be a lamentation, you knew this was going to be a lamentation. Everybody that watches you knew this was going to be a lamentation... so, why are we even here?
Finally an episode I expected to be a Lamentation is one!
I have nothing to say. This is a horrifying episode. I have nothing to say for it, and you’ve said everything against it I could even imagine.
my favorite captains would be:
J.L.Picard
Janeway
Kirk
Sisco
Captain Freeman
Archer
in that order (the order after Kirk is not very firmly set for me... but)
I was wondering if you'd do anything special for christmas. And... you did!
"oh, that's the one where crusher has sex with a ghost." no, it's the one where crusher is sexually abused by a ghost. that whole episode was just insulting. damn you, taylor
I don't see how this episode is any more lamentation worthy or superficial then any other Lifetime movie.
Once of Star trek Guilty pleasure xD.
I just thought I heard Groundskeeper Willie hosting the show.
What you were looking for is "SJW agenda," when you were talking about Taylor. There's a school of thought that says that "strong women" should be flawless, or that women in the audience should be pandered to in the most cynical manner. The flaws are what elevate Kathryn Janeway above, say, Michael Burnham.
As to what type of bad is worse...? I'd almost say this sort of steady decline is worse, because you're hoping for it to get better. Say what you will, but as soon as the space N-words (and that is almost certainly what director Russ Mayberry was thinking when he changed it from a race of samurai lizards) with the exaggerated African accents beam on, you know Code of Honor is irredeemable.
Knowing how strange (in my humble opinion - i can be wrong guys ...) are Lorerunner's standards for Lamentation - i was expecting this not to be one. i am really suprised.
It's strange, trying to judge Ronin... on the one hand, yes, he certainly violated another being's rights to her own privacy and free will. On the other, he presumably had to do so to stay alive. We might think bunnies are cute, but we don't hate the fox for eating them. Certainly, Ronin's mode of predation was less cruel than the fox's, but his prey were sentients with intelligence and free will. Was ceasing to exist the morally correct thing to do?
good point
Imagine if every time someone resigned from starfleet they had to go through academy training and work their way up the ranks again if they changed their mind.
Then there would be no one to explore the final frontier!
On acceptance of female captains over time, I agree. Case in point: see that a woman recency assumed command of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier... Not a big deal in this day and age.
This is one of the episodes from the series that I only ever watched once and I skip it whenever I go back through the series. As you say, there is a worse episode but it's not really that meaningful of a distinction when it comes to the question of how do I want to spend 45 minutes but I'll never have back.
Incidentally, to your point about worse for DS9: my vote would be Profit and Lace. In fact, I see this episode as kind of similar to Move Along Home - both were interesting ideas, just that didn't work at all, whereas I see episodes like P&L and Code of Honor as Starting from a bad premise, and which there was plenty of reason already to know was bad, and then just never letting up in what I can only presume was a belief that somehow their writing talent was good enough to make it work.
Finally, on a personal note, I hope you have a very good holidays. 2020 for me was a better year than it probably was for most - I got a new job after a couple years of unemployment and I got married for a second time. But, it still was a very difficult year and I found your channel this year which became one of the bright spots for me.
Wow!
This got lamentation.
I'm shocked(!)
Re: Your last comment, it makes sense. A terrible episode to end a terrible year!
I actually prefere Code of Honor over this.
Why do white people hate code of honor? Black people love it for the most part. The trial fight thing was just stupid. It was a great episode.
I prefer the weirder/bizzare episodes of star trek over the "serious" ones because for me star trek is inherently goofy and it looks more bizarre to me when it's taken too seriously. For me nothing will top Platos stepchildren from TOS but the weirdness of this episode makes it one of the more enjoyable TNG episodes. I can't wait for your review of Genesis (the best of TNG for me).
It staggers me that Jeri Ryan, a woman, would fail to see this is NOT a romance but anything from a toxic trap downwards. Only an addiction halfway makes sense here, and that makes it a disturbing episode. Bummer we had to end the year on this, but somehow so apt.
Have you SEEN the romance section of a bookstore? Lots of rapey shit.
Id improve this by making Ronan be an actual person everyone knows whose ghostly nature and connection to the candle is revealed later on. That would remove most of the odd behavior and the need for mind control
I am a 30-year-old woman, and I can't stand this episode at all. This episode makes me mad. Yes, mad. Not just mad, but pissed. It's one of my skip episodes list. I like romance, yes. But, this wasn't romantic, this was just a plain infuriating episode.
CONTROVERSY ALERT. I'm going to say something that everyone is going to hate me for, so if you're not emotionally prepared to hear something that pushes a lot of people's buttons, please refrain from reading ahead.
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I don't agree at all that this is a violation. I don't think it's a rape, I don't think it's a drug trip, I don't even think it's evil space magic. I think that Ronan uses his energy powers to activate something in Beverly's biology, something that is already there in all women (though it manifests differently in different women; insert redhead stereotype here), and all he does is point that thing at himself, when otherwise it would have been pointed at some random person who Bev happened to look at while her hormonal fluctuations were at a certain point in their natural cycle, triggering a cascade of endorphins which her brain would interpret as "love" because that's the cultural context that she's learned. What Ronan is doing is no more wrong than pouring fertilizer on a plant so that it will grow better than the soil naturally allows. In other words, this really is a romance story, EVEN WITH all the rapey vibes. Go read a Harlequin romance novel sometime; you'll see that it basically amounts to rape in every way except that the woman is a little bit into it, and is conflicted up until the moment before penetration happens, when she finally consents in the privacy of her own mind, never having said "yes" out loud. Technically that's rape, but in reality-land, that's just how women's sexuality operates. Many if not most women are ambivalent about their sexuality; many if not most women require some amount of influence and pressure from a guy before they start to genuinely feel positively toward him. All Ronan does with his evil space magic here is speed up the process a little bit, and that's just to get over the fact that he's an immortal energy being who normal people wouldn't accept otherwise. I 100% do not accept that this is any more wrong than the alien energy being possessing Picard back in Lonely Among Us, which you may recall was an accident where the creature just used him to get home (negligent of his safety, to be sure, but hardly evil). A lot of women don't want to admit this part of themselves, just as a lot of guys don't want to admit that they can get wood from looking at a woman who would be a terrible mother for any children they might have. Sex is kind of an ugly thing, but screaming "Rape" any time a man transgresses against a woman's comfort level is a ridiculous level of overreaction and projection, and women do this because they're immature and don't want to take responsibility for handling their own biological impulses.
This IS romance. It is just one sided.
I just saw this episode for the first time in about 10 years (I didn't even really remember it that well) after listening to this video. It's definitely a weird one. I found the ghost scenes for the most part to be pretty uncomfortable, but the rest of the episode I kind of liked in a sort of comedic way. Like the guy with the over-the-top accent or the fog "rolling in" on the bridge. I generally liked the scottish theme of the colony and if nothing else, it was nice to have an episode focused on Dr. Crusher. Overall, I didn't really find the episode offensive and I don't know anyone personally who does, I have to agree with others who've stated that it seems to be a pretty typical romance-novel plot of the time (and maybe still? I don't know, I don't read romance novels. I'm just passively familiar with them.)
I was actually far more upset by the previous episode in which the Enterprise crew wants to let an entire race of people go extinct just for the sake of the prime directive. This episode was definitely not good, but I don't hate it or anything. There's definitely episodes of TNG that I'd skip over this.
I’d take Code of Honor any day over this episode. Actually, I’d watch it over about half of season seven.
Code of Honor at least had a few redeeming qualities.Very, very, few, but still... This episode should have been a big sign behind the scenes to not do that stupid Victorian holodeck program in Voyager too... It's obvious that those responsible only read the absolute worst of terrible romance novels and may have had their perception of what is romantic warped into serial killer territory.
Ahh, insomnia. We meet again.
“It’s bad. And it’s also bad.”
At least it's good to make laugh at.
You're a terrible person ha-ha
When you talked about "charm", "Spock's Brain" from TOS sprung to mind. It's a bad episode, but it has some memorable moments and the charm of the interactions between the golden trio elevates it into something that's still enjoyable even though the premise is stupid. The only charm here for those who can enjoy how utterly stupid and cringey this episode is.
Also, Sub-Rosa doesn't have any meme-able lines in it. "Dinna light that candle" doesn't, uh...hold a candle to "Brain and brain what is brain?!".
My issue with Spock's Brain is that Kirk banishes a bunch of women who are used to lives of modern convenience to go and effectively become cave-women. If you tried that with a bunch of SUV-driving, smartphone wielding, latte-drinking women from our time... let's just say the survival rate would be low.
YESSS AND IT'S A LAMENTATION!
Even Babylon5 got a lamentation.
I believe that Gates McFaddens acting like a Crackhead was her telling the producers: yeah, this is NOT a love story ^^
While watching the episode I had a creepy thought: was Ronin perhaps the father of all Howard women, except for Beverly?
11:20. I see Zorro.
Normally I watch along with you. Not this time. It’s just another 45 minutes of my life I won’t get back. That’s how much I don’t care for this
I don't think it's fair to rank the Captains and call those ranked lower as poorer or weaker Captains. They were all at least good, and some were iconic. I'd rather ask for scoring out of 10 for each Captain, to which I would give even the lowest a 7/10.
There were deep politics and gender issues going on; this is only a few years after Murphy Brown.
You can do romantic stories in Star Trek. Having Crusher screwing a ghost, is not a romantic story. I don't see how anyone could look at this and call it a "romantic story" with a straight face. It's more of a horror story. It would work as a horror story if they took the dumb/cheesy stuff out.
Female here, and, um, hate this episode! Also not a romance fan generally. Lament away.
Also female, also not into romance, also not a fan of this ep.
There's a world of difference between "romance" and "alien parasite". This was the latter.
I thought we were done with rape in Star Trek. The Gene legacy continues I guess.
You mean Rick
I liked Code of Honor, it was a highlight of Season 1.
First, I agree that this episode is terrible.
But, and I am not saying this is a good fix (because ghost rape... Yuck), I always ask myself, could I fix it? The closest "fix" I can come up with is to swap Crusher and Troi's roles in the episode while keeping it a Crusher episode (also, no ghost rape cause... Yuck). Craft the story as Crusher has to save her friend Troi who is in love with a ghost/alien/whatever, and resigns her commission etc. You've got to add a "B" plot to keep Riker and Picard on the bridge because it needs to be Crusher who solves the mystery of why Troi is suddenly addicted to ghost Crack...
Agreed,
Horrible episode because this is unknowingly about abuse and it's being made to be "romantic"?
I recall an episode of Monsters titled "The Mandrake Root" and it basically did similar. The lead character's grand mother had passed away and it turns out that this magic root was some type of "love" demon. It turns out that the grandmother kept her husband in the basement so the root could feed off him and in return, she gets her "high." This would mean either the grandmother was an evil person or she was being mind controlled. If she was mind controlled it was abuse.
This is the reason why I hate the movies trying to make vampires romantic, they're using mind control. If said vampire didn't look like a GQ model and had six pack abs, would the mental control be called romantic? I hate characters like the Purple Man however, they tell you he's a villain.
Ok I didn't hate the episode near as much.
Excellent points brought up. I like proper Scottish culture and references.
The geography was off, the accent was off.
Hey even Highlander showed Scotland better. Cities generally around the coast of Island nations and not on the Rocky hills.
Something about planting crops on rocks?
Now obviously in Rodenbery future no one is addicted to drugs in the Federation so naturally the councilor has no training in addiction counciling.
Well drugs anyway.
Holoadiction must be a separate course.
Why Picard survived
A) artificial heart?
B) Q. Q has plans for Picard going forward, besides All Good Things, I Q Peter David novel, Picard SE 03.
Now this is a mixed metaphor of cultural appropriation.
Let me enlighten you on a couple of esoteric subjects.
Druids/ Stonehenge.
The Druid made wands from the wood of Holy Trees.
Holly at Christmas? Reefs of leaves. Christmas celebration is full of pegan symbolism.
Hollywood? Movie magic?
Right Druidic so you got your mix of Germanic /Norse mythology.
Preislamic Arabia had writings about beings of smokeless fire (burning bush), my theory Plasma based beings, that predate human civilization on Earth. They are referred to as Djinn. Feminine Genie.
I dream of Jeanie anyone?
Known by the Greek as Daemons.
Known by the Gnostics as Archons.
The Zulu called them the Chittihuri. (avengers?)
They are supposed to live in the void space between dimensions.
They can reach into our world where the barrier is thin.
Certain rituals, including human sacrifice, especially children provide negative lower vibrational energy which the consume as a food source.
Human hosts through participation in and consumption of the victims opened themselves up to these life forms.
Oh two things.
Not all these Djinn were malevolent.
Not all humans are dangerous, destructive and evil.
Though many are.
Some of the Djinn are benevolent and most are indifferent to humans.
Though nuclear weapons reach beyond our three dimensions and wake the neighbourhood so to speak.
Hebrew /Jewish mysticism.
King Solomon was said to have a ring that granted him control of the Djinn to wit he imprisoned many in lamps, candles and jars.
Hodgepodge mythology, bad cultural stereotypes, and yes a Japanese name for a Scottish plasma based life form.
Meets bodice ripping caveman romance novel.
Which is porn for women.
The nineties had a few horror movies about mind rape.
Then again nightmare on elm street series?
Koontz? Wes Craven?
So take those themes put them in a blender and serve two weeks later.
Crusher mentioned plasma in regards to the candle.
Fyi Plasma is the fourth state of mater.
Plenty more to learn if you are interested.
Oh right I forgot these might be the same beings the Archons that tried to convince Captain Insaineway to cross into the light in Coda over on Voyager. As I said they live between dimensions / universes so galactic scale is meaningless in a void.
My female partner certainly hated it
Somehow, I expected you to say this an Anne Rice ripoff, 'The Witching Hour'.
Holly crap, F IRRRRRRRRRRRST!!!!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now my life is complete.
I'd rather watch the Riker dream episode or the corny code of honor.
At least it's better than Genesis...
This is incidentally one of the five-ish episode of tng that I've seen while skimming through channels and... yeah. I mercifully don't remember it well, but I do remember disliking it quite strongly. And I am, in fact, a woman.
As for the Jeri Taylor quote: *single eyebrow raised*
Was Harvey Weinstein involved in this episode?
Code of Honor at least deals with other cultures, this is just ghost shenanigans and nothing is really happening. In Code of Honor I was at least watching it kinda normally, for this I just laughed half of the time. For me, this episode is much worse.
Jani Johnny I think that may be half the problem. It's campy and fun and has the potential to be silly.. but it takes itself extremely seriously. It's.. just.. meaningless.
Funny how the lamentations are longer than the usual ones. :-)
I am a Trek fan. I am cis female. I hate this episode. HATE it.
1.) So, the previous episode which openly had our "heroes" argue in favor of genocide and then sit back and watch an entire alien species perish while patting themselves on the back for doing the moral thing doesn't get a Lamentation but this does? Um, okay then. LOL!
2.) I'm just going to put two things out there. Take these for what they're worth - A.) of all the women I know who have seen "Sub Rosa", not a single one of them hated it. Maybe that's just sampling bias but there it is. B.) by their own admission, they were trying to do something akin to a romance novel and the most popular romance novels of all time among female audiences are the "Fifty Shades of Grey" books, which are outright BDSM pornography. That's all I'll say about the whole gender debate aspect of this episode.
3.) That being said - I can't give this Lamentation status because there are a few things I do like. First, I love that they at least attempted to show a true appreciation for Scottish culture. I really respect that they were trying to portray another culture in such a positive light (even going so far as to have the alien governor so enraptured by all things Scottish). While they don't get everything right (i.e. - the cities they said the stones came from to recreate the Highlands aren't even in the Highlands and it would be awful hard for the governor to stand in Glamis Castle and look out over the Highlands as Glamis Castle also isn't in the Highlands) their hearts were obviously in the right place. Second, Gates McFadden's performance. God bless that woman; she did her best to elevate a script that was brimming with cliches (seriously, Ned's ridiculous accent would easily give him a place in "Up the Long Ladder"). Sadly, she wasn't able to deliver a grand-slam home run like Marina Sirtis did in "Face of the Enemy" or Majel Barrett Roddenberry did in "Dark Page" but, bless her heart, she give it her all.
So, while it is pretty bad, it does have a certain watchability factor....
3/10
Do I really need to elaborate? You discredit your own idea in your 2nd point by willingly admitting it is based on your own anecdotal evidence surveying women. In my own life, I’ve never even met one woman who was remotely interested in Star Trek, end of story. It’s no offense to women Star Trek fans, and I do realize that they are out there and plenty. Yet if I was to use anecdotal evidence in the same way you have I’d be concluding that women just don’t care about Star Trek. WHICH if you simply view photographic or video evidence from any major Star Trek convention can easily be disproven. People often get too confident that their own bubbles of existence must be reflective of reality in the greater world and it just isn’t so.
Definite YMMV there, then - I hated the Scottish stuff. Whilst I appreciate that they at least got the pronunciation of Glamis right, it all got very grating very quickly, and came off as a misfired attempt to contribute to the Gothic horror atmosphere. The trope of the most obvious regional accent belonging to the doomsayer stuck out like a sore thumb, and the mayor's line about the caber toss made me want to put my head through something hard. Wanting a Scotland-related activity done outdoors, they went straight for the most obvious thing. Along with them not realising that there is such a thing as lowland Scotland, it was a bit insulting, really.
@@macree01 "You discredit your own idea in your 2nd point by willingly admitting it is based on your own anecdotal evidence surveying women." .... "People often get too confident that their own bubbles of existence must be reflective of reality in the greater world and it just isn’t so."
Yes, that was the exact point I was trying to make - that anecdotal evidence/sampling bias cuts both ways. Just because I've never met a woman who didn't hate "Sub Rosa" doesn't mean all women like it. And, it doesn't mean that all women hate it just because Lore knows many who do. I have my sampling bias and Lore has his.
I probably should have made that more clear in my first comment.
This episode is weird...I feel attacked...(name wise at least)
(Also I skip this one ALL the time...it's not even like hmmm maybe it just doesn't exist for me)
I have a question; why isn't Wesley a girl? No seriously. If Ronan can only mate with 'Howard Women', then for his own survival, he would have to take some steps, i.e. genetic manipulation, to insure the mating instinct, (the need to have a baby) that 'Howard Women' could only give birth to females. This way there would always a young woman growing up in the wings, for him, Ronan to turn around and possess, when his current lover dies, as Nana did If we follow this story to its logical conclusion, Beverly should have been incapable of giving birth to a Male Child. Hense, my original question, why isn't Wesley a girl?
Because the Y chromosomes can only be passed on by the male. The ghost didn't know anything about mr Crusher.
I don't think it's within his power to change DNA and he would have had to take over Beverley's mother but he didn't because Nana was still alive
I hated the episode but a lot of my older female friends liked it. I think there might be an age gap too. It seems targeted at people who like romance novels, judging purely on the friends that enjoy it.
And to clarify, the reason I hate the episode is because it's obviously rape and I'm so glad our culture is reaching a point where people see it. But unfortunately that's not how people in my circle saw it back in the day.
It's a weird fantasy "romance" for some women I know now. I don't even know how to respond any more but back in the day, as a young impressionable fundamentalist, this didn't raise a single red flag for me. It's startling to think about now.
Move Along Home was boring. Let He Who Is Without Sin and especially Profit and Lace are actively offensive. Profit and Lace is definitely the worst, imo.
Threshold was bas eith terrible science but Tattoo was actively offensive. It doesn't get mentioned enough as a terrible episode.
I'd forgotten how awful this episode is... cost I could barely sit through it the first time and have actively skipped it every time since. Much deserved Lamentation.
Genesis is close to "so bad it's good" for me, but probably just on the bad side of that line. Masks is another outright skip though.
It's the quintessential season 7 episode - scraping the bottom of the script bucket. This isn't a gender divide episode, it's a trash so called "romance" episode.
I swear to God if Genesis gets a lamentation I am unsubscribing.
I was a teen when I saw this I'm female and I hated it. I
You've never heard the argument that ghost man didn't love them... well... he is some sort of non-corporeal weird green energy being so if he "loved" them is kind of relative, I mean, what do emotions even mean at that point? I guess if there is to be an explanation here, I would agree that he's some sort of parasite. But... you should relax man. I don't think TNG is "supposed" to be some kind of family friendly show, despite it being mostly mild and implying that. "Beverley! I'm a weird ghost creature... can I have your consent to haunt you thereby allowing you to experience weird ghost-love and/or ghost-orgasms? They're pretty awesome!" Nah. That would have totally broken the ghost-rape sexual domination fantasy element. That is a thing, and I suspect most of the point. Don't kink shame. It's a work of fiction, start to finish.
Out of character, badly written and nothing makes sense, for sure. Not at all offensive though.
This is the single worst episode of TNG hands down . This is worse then voyagers "threshold".
I'm female i loathe this episode. It's stupid, distasteful and makes Crusher who's a brilliant woman to be caught up in this ghost lover crap. I thought that Beverly was too smart for that
it's never pretty when Star Trek takes its eye off the ball, while swinging for the fences. This episode is simply awful.....RNB
At this point I feel like you're just going out of your way to declare Lamentations. Man of the People wasn't that bad, and this episode isn't that bad either. Yes it's a nonsense plot, but I thought it was a pretty good character piece for Beverly, and some interesting concepts even if they're handled poorly. PS - I'm male.