As someone who has been in the digital world for over 20 years, I can say without any hesitation that THE most important thing to get desired results is the IR. It's at LEAST 80% of your tone. My advice would be once you have found your favourite IR...stick with that. Many people coming to digital from the Tube Amp world can't get over the idea that generally, digital modellers are replicating an amp and speaker MIC'D UP. Most people will never actually of heard their own tube amp and speaker mic'd up, and the discrepancy in sound is simply to large for them to enjoy. Of course it is...it's totally different - depending on many factors such as microphone used etc. The 'amp in the room' sound' and a mic'd up sound through 1) a mic 2) the input device (mixer/channel) and 3) monitors are TOTALLY different things. And because of this, they are not really meant to be compared anyway.
Strangely I have gotten really good results going into a small Roland keyboard amp. It was portable, quiet and did not have the hiss you get with FRFR cabs. It is still not perfect but you get an amp in the room feel and you can send stereo outs into the p.a.
Every guitar tone that inspired me to learn to play comes from a recording, that is, it is a processed and microphoned tone and in a mix, EVH, SRV, Hedrix, Nuno, Vai and a long list of musicians with whom I have never been or will be. in the same room to know how they sound that way. Curiously, those tones of a microphoned amplifier and with that extra post processing, I have achieved it from digital, something that I never achieved with my tube amplifiers
Yeah that's why I hate these "But does it sound like an amp in the room??" discussions. It's not supposed to sound like an amp in the room! It's supposed to sound like an amp mic'd up in another room.
It’s not 80% of the tone. More like 50% and that also depends on the models interaction with the speaker impedance curve. I agree with you though. Think of it like having a bunch of heads you like in the real world and running them through the same cab.
Started my digital journey as many did with the Strymon Iridium. Initially I was unhappy as I couldn't get it to sound close enough to my tube amps which is what my ears were trained to hear for decades. Now, years later, I realize digital is its own thing and can be just as cool especially when it comes to ease of recording. Once I stopped trying to chase my tube amps and just dial in a good digital tone things changed for the better. Will always have both now.
@@benallmark9671 It still holds up for me years later but I prefer clean to semi-breakup tones which is where I feel it still excels. I also learned to dial it in with a compressor and boost pedal in front of it and some EQ settings in my DAW depending on which guitar and Iridium setting I'm recording with. Iridium sounds decent out of the box but you can take it to the next level with some effort and experimentation.
I started using In-Ears with a tube amp around 2010. Around the same time I was using the PodHD500 and then the 500X with the tube amp switching off the cabs on the 500X. When the Helix came out I switched to that and I was already used to hearing my guitar and the rest of the band in my In-Ears so I ditched the tube amp and went straight to Front Of House and didn't miss not having a real amp as I never really heard it anyway.
I’ve found on the Helix adding a stereo dynamic ambiance verb at the end of the chain gives it the life that an amp in the room has. You can even tweak the high cut on the reverb to add or remove the frequencies that the reverb would be absorbing to get a more realistic feel
You don't need a tube amp to get the "amp in the room" sound. Any power amp into a cab is enough for every modeler out there, that sounds decent to begin with. I don't really get why people have this kind of problem, because the solution is not only so easy, but obvious and intuitive as well.
Because for decades, players have been told the "magic" in a tube amp comes from the tubes. They believe that, so the lack of tubes in a modeler must be an inherent flaw (don't ask them about the Rocktron Prophecy, though). It's frequently a form of gatekeeping, like the greybeards who swear not a single good guitar was made after the 60's.
Agree 100%. I am a die hard amp guy, but I am also not a luddite. My QC captures sound absolutely identical to my rigs. I am a guitarist and a bassist so I simply use the return on my Mesa boogie class D for a power section and use a guitar cab or a bass cab and it sounds perfect whenever I want volume. Sold off all my amps except for my two favorites. Kept a few cabs. On stage send the modeler signal with IR to FOH, non IR to power section and cab. Done.
Every guitar tone that inspired me to learn to play comes from a recording, that is, it is a processed and microphoned tone and in a mix, EVH, SRV, Hedrix, Nuno, Vai and a long list of musicians with whom I have never been or will be. in the same room to know how they sound that way. Curiously, those tones of a microphoned amplifier and with that extra post processing, I have achieved it from digital, something that I never achieved with my tube amplifiers
Modelers are great for recording. In the context of a studio album, I can't tell the difference. It's live in the room where they break down. But if your goal is just to sound like a recording, then yes, modelers offer more features to get you there.
True, but most of those riffs and tones were created by someone in a room playing through an amp. It’s not so much about tone, but how it makes you feel while playing it. I’ve owned pretty much every modeller out there and I always feel uninspired and the amount of choice gives me option paralysis. I always end up going back to an amp and some pedals.
For me, it's not the “sound” or “tone” that’s so different; it’s the overall experience. And you need to get the volume up to a certain level for that difference to be meaningful. If you’re matching tones at low volumes, it’s a bit pointless. An amp at the right volume in the room is incredibly dynamic. It breathes. It feels like it’s talking back to you. A great tube amp fills the room with a three-dimensional sound. It blooms. The speakers change the air. The sound feeds back through the guitar's pickups. There are so many experiential differences that are tough to pinpoint. It’s not the recorded tone, the EQ, distortion, or compression. It’s the dynamics and the feel. But I’m not a snob about it. I love all of it, and I’m only turning my tube amps on when I can get the volume right. At lower volume it’s all digital, and that’s where I spend most of my time. The tube amp experience is for special moments when I can open it up and fill the room.
I hear what you're saying, and, think you make some good points, but, also, have you ever listened to an amp modeller through a full frequency, high wattage set of studio monitors? I have a pair of Event Opals and a Rhythmik Audio sub in my control room, and, can crank my Opals to be as loud as my amps, and, the bloom, the feedback, that three dimensional sound is definitely there. I have the luxury of having my amps at the back of my room, and, my studio monitors at the front. Both my amps (I have a Fender Bassman Tweed amp and a Victory Kraken) are connected to load boxes which feed my Opus IR boxes. At the flick of a switch, I can go between monitoring my amps through their speakers, and, monitoring them through my studio monitors (and my amps go quiet aka a dummy load). There are some differences, but, at high volumes, less than you'd think.
A Seymour Duncan PowerStage 170 and a 1x12 cab. I don’t even send an ir to that cab. So I adjust the amp modeler to the speaker cab. Sounds and feels the more real! Been playing that rig on the road and on Broadway in Nashville since 2017.
I've got an HX stomp. I run the main output including the cab sim, at instrument level, to a DI box that I use to convert to XLR connection and line level to front of house or recording. and for amp in the room i split the signal path before the cab sim so it's excluded, and run that to the send output at instrument level and into a seymour duncan power stage 170 and run that into a guitar cab. the whole rig fits on a pedal board and works great!
What I found really helps is just simply turning the IR itself up. Before I had third party IRs I was using the Helix cab block and what I would do is run an EQ and a boosted after the cab block. Also, if you have a headrush put the volume at about noon and then control the volume on the Helix accordingly. Eventually you'll find that sweet spot. It's all about the volumes can really help it cut through the mix
Full disclosure. I have a 80s Mesa Boogie Studio 22 Calibre+ and a 70s Fender Twin. I love them both. After many years not playing I got back in he swim last year. I recently bought a Pod Go and I love it too. Its tonal capabilities and effects are astounding. I think the snobbiness of "Hey, man. Tubes are discernibly better," is utter cobblers (UK slang expression for drivel). I can't wait for my next gig when I can swerve the possibility of giving myself a double hernia in humping the Twin up two flights of stairs by using the Pod Go instead. That's before I begin to consider the "Emperor's new clothes" syndrome associated with this debate. Not to mention the high maintenance costs my old faithfuls have hit me with me over the years: re-tubing, balancing and setting up. I don't believe most of us could tell the difference in a blind test between tubes and a good quality modeller. And the punters definitely couldn't... and neither would they care one jot.
I agree and how many years later was it until people learned that Brian May a number of times used the tiny solid state Deacy amp and no one listening to the records knew (or cared)?
I’ve always been a tube amp purist until I got some amp sims and realized how great they sound and was able to record in my house anytime I wanted. You pair these sims with a great room sim plugin and it’s 90% of the way there, IMO. Pair that with good mixing and good production and it’s barely a compromise.
When I grabbed a real amp+cab rig again after 6+ years of nothing but FRFR solutions, I did notice a big difference in the room. Clean tones suddenly had more life, more sparkle about them. Conversely, my high gain tones were suddenly blooming in a way I didn't like, filling the room with resonant bass frequencies and punishing me for picking hard. The reason is largely the filtering that a microphone has on a signal. If you could remove the microphone from the equation, a perfectly FRFR speaker should be able to accurately recreate the sound of "amp in the room". I can't show you how the amp in the room sounds without inviting you over - as soon as I put a microphone on it (be it an SM57, or my iPhone mic from the other side of the room), it's adding that layer of filtering. One thing I can dispel pretty easily, is that there's no magic in a tube amp. Running a tube amp into a load box into a cab sim is exactly as sparkly and magical as running a plugin into a cab sim. I tried a few blind tests with this setup and couldn't accurately pick them apart.
A real frfr cab won’t ever be able to accurately recreate guitar cab sound cause tweeters will always play high frequencies in a different way…btw your point is mostly valid
I use my hx stomp into a small harley benton poweramp, and into a 2x12. Live gigs i micup the speaker, and run the second output of the stomp into an ir loader and to foh. Must say i think it is the best of 2 worlds. I get to listen to a real cab, and i dont have to break my back lifting a tubeamp 😃
yeah, I hate when these discussions are framed as amp modelers vs real amps, when, in reality, they are almost universally real cabs vs IRs (be it through an fr-fr, or both recorded). IRs can’t recreate what a cab does because they are a snapshot of one cab through a specific mic, at a specific position, in a specific room. If you play another cab (even if the same model) and listen to it with your ears, on your room, while moving around, of course, the experience is going to be different, it’s also going to be useless. The only tone that really matters is the recorded tone, everything else is just having some fun.
As I am getting back to playing guitar after 35yrs hiatus. I’m finding there are tons of electronics that can produces wonderful sounds. I never had pedal effects 35 yrs ago, just a strat and a 25w amp. Gains and reverb came from the amp. Now I’m stuck in this rabbit hole in search of the sounds I want. I spent more time looking/buying pedals than actually playing. To me a good musician is the one that creates beautiful sound even in a cheap equipment.
I agree. The chase for the "perfect" sound is so distracting. I stopped it and went simple. I bought a Positive Grid Spark Go that I can set up in no time where I want. With this I play and practice a very lot more than before and got much better in playing guitar. And just with that comes also an overall better sounds (from yourself). Btw that little mini amp sounds amazingly good. Just pre-ordered the Spark 2 which has also an integrated Looper which helps me even more with my practicing.
@@MasterMojo85 I’m still stuck in the pedals rabbit holes but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. Will go with simple set up next year with Quad Cortex or Fender ToneMaster Pro. I also want to cut down from 15 to 5 guitars.
I think that says more about how much you value other people’s opinions than worrying about if a tool is effective or not. Who cares what “they” think. Tf is wrong with you bro
I think I’m giving up on amp modeling for live gigs for the time being. What I’ve found as a cover band guitarist is that trying to use modeled tones for the wide variety of songs leads down a rabbit hole to option overload. So I’ve started using a Quilter Superblock with my analog pedalboard into a 1 or 2 by 12 cab. I send the cab emulated out to FOH and all is good. Now I can tweak everything on the fly as needed. I still use modeling at home and for rehearsals. Integrating digital live is just too static for me unless I create a patch for every song (which I’m just not going to do). (Sorry for going on like that).
I was thinking that same thing the other day. I got a helix about three months ago and I’ve been digging it but last night I realized it really didn’t sound that real, but that I really didn’t care.😂
It's not really the modelers that I hate, it's that overproduced, reverb and delay drenched sound that a lot of people get out of them. That "worship music" sound, cant stand it. It's so unbelievably contrived
I feel the same, Im just happy that I can have so many different tones in the same box, some of the amp models I have never even heard the real amp with my guitar plugged in, I do however know what type of sound they produce and I am happy with the digital modelling of those amps.
Yeah… but people do care. Most of us grew up playing amps. Switch to a modeler because you hear it’s great, “JUST LIKE ALL THE AMPS!” They say, and then you find out you’ve lost the interaction between your guitar and the amp and cab, something about it is less fun, you’re no longer getting lost in the playing as you try to fix what’s been lost and cannot fully be gotten back… unless of course you bought Fractal, which might have gotten you a little father. Still a lot of the fun missing even if it’s about 10% worth. Modelers don’t push a cab the same either. It’s close, but it’s weird.
I have used a modeler and tube power amp with guitar cab for almost 20 years. You cant really compare this configuration to running into a FRFR using an IR since it doesnt represent the same kind of chain and the FRFR speaker is also a very different speaker compared to a guitar speaker/cab. The modeler chain is like: Amp-->guitar cab-->Microphone (all modeled)--> FRFR, the chain with guitar power amp and guitar cab is like: Amp (modeled)-->Power amp --> guitar cab. On the other hand, If you mic the guitar cab and put it through the PA and also connect the modeler directly to the PA with an IR then it can sound pretty much the same through the PA in an ideal situation, so from an audience perspective its pretty much the same but a guitar cab vs FRFR on stage isnt going to be the same for the guitar player.
Finally someone straightening things up. The issue is not what sounds best in a mix, FOH, in ear etc. 12" speakers moving air is what real amps has always been about (or 10" for that matter).
Speakers. Cabinets. Harmonics and sub harmonics we feel but actually don’t ‘hear’….and….no two tube amps of the same model will sound absolutely identical once you get intimately familiar with your personal gear…especially with different speakers, cabs, etc….just find a sound that inspires you to play your best and stop chasing someone else’s tone that was sculpted in a studio or even live 40 to 50 years ago and remixed and eq’d on a board etc…btw, I’m 65 years young and played thru tons of the gear considered holy relics today. Sounded great at ear bleeding levels but I would have died for the options we have available today when I was 16 years old….just my experience….rock on
I think on a recent “amp in the room” vid on the fractal G66 CZcams page, Cooper went through how to use a filter and eq block to simulate the amp in the room sound and I really thought it was worth watching. I feel like there’s some sort of midrange push of a tube amp live that seems to sound a little bigger. I love my FM9 turbo, but also love my Marshall jcm800’s at certain venues. The good news is that the modelers are getting closer and closer to being identical 🤘🏼
I only play at home, from bedroom volume to loud but comfortable, though the setup has plenty of headroom and was really cheap. I bought a 12" speaker second hand (Jensen from a deluxe reverb reissue), made a cab out of mdf, and bought a Warwick gnome bass amp and a joyo reamp box. If you want to go down a similar route these tips might be useful, but sorry for the wall of text. Important tips (skip to the inflator bit if these are too obvious): A low latency audio interface and a good computer are a must Without a reamp box you'll probably get terrible noise issues from your computer. The reamp box won't stop your single coils picking up interference, but finding the right position and direction to face can make all the difference if it's a problem. Flat eq is really important at the amp stage! The gnome I bought has a line out after the gain stage, use it to find flat eq settings by sending a signal out and comparing the return signal to the original. I used an eq with left/right split, original left, return right. The tc bam is really popular, too. Cheap, small, flat enough with the right settings. For my gnome it's somewhere around; bass down a bit @10:00 middle up a bit @3:00 treble down a bit @9:00. My gnome amp has soft background noise as master volume goes up, but with gain at noon and an output from my daw safely below clipping, I can turn the master volume to almost nothing and still get louder than I need with zero hiss. This may just be my unit, and it's solvable at home volumes, and you wouldn't hear it at higher volumes. With helix native, if you can't get flat eq, try the preamp blocks, they sound really lively, dynamic and clear. I was really tempted to stop experimenting at this point, but I wanted an authentic deluxe reverb sound, and the breakup comes more from the power tubes. If you can get flat eq, try amp blocks but set the master volume down a bit (or a lot) and use channel volume to bring it back up. I still use helix for pedals but the amp models didn't feel as nice to me as neural amp modeler (free). Neural dsp plugins feel like they have a slight compressor on the output, comparing to my small tube amp the tone king didn't feel real. However, (with cab block turned off) turning the output to max and lowering signal later seemed to have made a big difference, to pick dynamics and feel. I should test more, maybe this is as big as the input level fiasco, or maybe it's my imagination, but in any case i preferred the next option. As good as neural dsp was, the free and completely unrelated but similarly named, neural amp modeler, using a capture without cab is perfection. I'm using a really detailed Princeton capture which matches my speaker perfectly. This is the only option that I prefer to my little tube amp, since now I can get a beautiful fender sound with punch and clarity that my little amp couldn't get. There's also a great tone king capture so I can choose between deluxe breakup or princeton breakup. At low volumes (75-90 or less if you prefer, so not super low), either the Oxford inflator (cheap right now) or free clone of it if you use Reaper (Google it, i think it's jcinflator), give a loudness boost which makes an incredible difference. Clearer, punchier, richer, but less hearing damage because you can drop the volume. With these you could get a better than real sound at low volumes. A real cab in a small room needs to be positioned right(ish). Initially i had the Jensen speaker pointed straight at me, but there's a reason people swap that speaker out. I moved it so it points at my feet when i play and it sounds great. At bedroom volumes, add eq at the last stage before sending the signal to alter your speaker to taste. You don't need to be precise, just add or remove frequencies and compare before/after to make sure it's an improvement. You can make a speaker sound like a different model really easily with a few tweaks, though this is completely optional and I no longer do this after moving the cab. I like a low shelf to give the Jensen some more extension, but another speaker may have the reverse problem. If you want to get technical, the manufacturers have all the frequency response graphs online. I overlayed them in Photoshop and made some approximate tweaks to get my Jensen to sound like a greenback when I want it to. Sanity check your setup by finding an impulse response of your speaker. In reaper i have pedals and amp on one channel, that I route to my cab and monitors separately. On the monitors i add an ir loader, on the cab I add the inflator. If your audio interface has enough channels, this can help tweak eq if your power amp colours the sound. If i switch from cab to monitors it sounds exactly like a recorded version of what I hear in the room. For reverb, check Mr Cordy's video on the spring reverb models in the helix, the neural dsp one feels really bland in comparison. I do prefer splitting the signal in native, putting the reverb on one path with mix 100% and adjusting level to get the right amount, and i can experiment with chaining reverb that way. Gain staging matters to getting a good feel. Final thing, it's really worth it if you have the space for a cab at home. The little amps are cheap and smash, and the sound is easily better and more versatile than the katana i borrowed for comparison. You can use any cab or amp with a loop, so nothing is wasted when it comes time to gig. If you have to stick with monitors, I too prefer eq curves like the ones mentioned in this video over impulses responses.
I think maybe a good comparison would be a 4K television. No matter how crisp and clear the picture is, when you see things in real life, it is light reflected off of something back to your eyes, where as a television is light projected to your eyes. The television is the light source, whereas when you see something in real life it is a reflection. As clear as the TV may be, it's not going to seem real because your brain is perceiving it differently.
The flaw in Mr Klein's reasoning, is that although technically correct that the amp itself has been modeled well, the amp in the real world does not work like a disconnected module. It is a living breathing electrical system or circuit. That means that there is feedback and interplay between the amp itself and the speaker that it is connected to. So if you model only the output from the amp you ignore the interplay and an interchange between the speaker and the cabinet which can change character. I'm not just talking about the character of the speaker itself producing sound. I'm talking about the electrical interaction between the oscillation of the speaker it's magnet and the electrical signals that are pushed back and forth. You cannot model the amp in isolation and expect to get the exact same thing when you connect it to some speaker. If you can tap the output of an amp while it is at the same time interacting with an actual speaker you're going to get much closer. so using something like a freight power station which has a dedicated line out allows you to connect it to a speaker cabinet while recording a line out from the app itself. This gets you closer but it's not exactly the same either. Because the freight power station itself is adding another set of electrical components that interplay. Additionally the type of speaker will also have an effect. So if you model your amplifier using the same exact speaker you're going to be using live this will be much closer. But if you model it using a completely different speaker with a wildly different specs it may not end up sounding the way you like.
To summarize, cab is more important than the amp just like the ir is more important than the amp sim, that means real amp with an IR vs Amp sim with a real cab, option 2 would make more of a difference
I do need to "amp in the room" feel, but wouldn't want to miss the advantages of modelers anymore. I go with modeler into amp. I basically do what Fractal Cliff suggests. The IR is off and I use the modeler's EQ to bump up the lows a bit and lob off the highs and all the harshness. Absolutely happy with that solution.
I walked into a small venue where they had a central mixing console and enough house support to run two massive stacks of speakers they owned(think maybe 6x5 stacks of 4x12 cabs two of them, one on each side of the stage...and to this I hooked up a lowly GNX3 (digitech GARBAGE)...it sounded glorious...never been closer to the sound of a real am unless playing through a real amp...except this sound with those stacks , in this small theater...was even more massive and I own two 4x12's and run them off Marks (IVb)!!!
I think this has to do with how you are socialized. If you started early on playing on stage you are accustomed to how a stack sounds. If you are (like most of us now) a bedroom guitarist, you are more accustomed to studio recordings and how a guitar sounds after amp, cabinet, microphone, tape/CD mix, speaker/headphones and you expect that tone of your guitar, too.
To get a pleasing and balanced guitar tone, most often two or more mic's will be mixed and equalized. But the same can be done directly with IR's themselves which is a useful shortcut when you're bounded to using a single IR in a live or rehearsal situation, or even when recording. A single mic IR can often have a very specific sound with some tonal spikes or dips which does not sound appropriate for all your sounds. You can do this yourself in a DAW or free IR's can be found online which are already premixed from multiple single mic IR's. I found one which I'm very satisfied with and I use the same one for years now in all my IR pedals and plugins and use it for every genre. Since it's already has a balanced tone, some gentle further equalizing is all what's needed to shape the tone (apart from from preamp choice and other effects of course).
it's simple. most often you're hearing an IR which is a miced up cab, where's with an analog rig, you're hearing just the cab without the microphone. plug in a modeler (without the cab/ir block) into a poweramp and into a cab and let's see if anyone can tell the difference
The Kemper Kab is the best I have found so far, bringing back the “amp in the room” sound and feel. Then again, the Kemper Kone was designed by Celestion specifically for the Kemper.
Imagine listening to a beautiful woman sing and play grand piano in the same room as you. The sound comes right from the piano's harp and from the singer's vocal chords right to your ears. The environment you're in plays a role in the sound and the piano can be felt. That's playing a real amp in the room. Now imagine listening a recording of that singer and piano played over a speaker. That's a modeler. Is one a superior experience to the other? Obviously, yes. Why? That should be self evident.
But how often does the average, non-guitar-playing music listener actually hear a song being played with the guitar part being played through an amp in the room? Maybe if they go to a bar small enough or something like a backyard get-together, very limited scenarios where just the amp itself is providing all the guitar volume. Otherwise every guitar being played during music that a non-guitar-playing music listener listens to is going to be either on a recording or at a live-music event where the amp's sound is first being picked up by a PA microphone to ultimately reach that person's ears. No matter how someone listens to music, whether it's earbuds, a car's stereo, at a concert, or on CZcams, that guitar's sound starts from the amp going into a mic. Whether you love the guitar tones of SRV, EVH, Dimebag, BB King, or Brad Paisley, they've all reached your ears by first going into a mic. How many fans have ever heard of how Hendrix's actual amp sounded "in the room"? Or Vai's amp? Maybe if you are in the first few rows of his show and are directly in front of the amp. Otherwise it's all through a mic. And when music is made by mic'ing an amp, whether it's being recorded or ran to the FOH at a live show, that in itself makes the "real amp in a room" sound irrelevant because it has now been converted to whatever the mic picked up, through the mixing board, to the PA loudspeakers or the recording tape. It's after this point the sound reaches the audience's ears, and because of this whole process, is there really any discernable tone difference between an amp and a modeler?
I think lots of musicians complaining about modeling experience never been to recording studio. When I recorded my songs in studio, mic and cab was in another room so basically what I've heard was final sound in headphones or monitors. This is for me the same kind of experience as play to the computer, via vst through monitors or headphones. I see no difference. Of course it sounds different than real amp and a cab because of room reflections and another things mentioned in the video but for the recording purposes vst rocks a lot!
I think I may have found the perfect comparison for the "Amp in the room experience," but first some things to note. A lot of Classic, awesome recordings were done with the Amp in an Isolation Booth, or a low watt Amp in a Recording Studio and perhaps monitored by the guitarist with Headphones, and then the recording of the Amp was possibly re-Amped or heavily EQed to sit in the mix, etc. A good comparison for when there's actually an Amp in the room, and it's going to end up on some finished product, might be the experience/feeling of when a friend comes over and has a conversation with you in the same room, as opposed to over a cellphone. Yes, they are different, sometimes better, sometimes worse, usually more convenient and practical, and the end result is often the same.
I don't understand why almost no one is doing this: amp modeler (cab and power section turned off) - into a guitar power amp - into a guitar cab (not FRFR). You'll have the "amp in the room" sound.
I do that. I’ve set my Marshall up as my real tube preamp sound, and added a couple of other fake amps in my Helix running into the power amp section. It all sounds like a real amp in the room. As someone said before, it’s not the amp we are missing, it’s the cab in the room sound.
I do it with return of Marshall effects loop into tube power section and speaker using my uad amp pedals … works great .. but I still also use my tube amps … both are cool
Doing this is what made me go back to tube amps after many years of modellers. My setup was running the Fractal up to a VHT 252 power amp played through an Orange 4x12 at band practice. The other guitarist I was in a band with at the time played a Peavey 5150 which is also the amp I was modelling. The real amp blew the fractal out of the water, it really was night and day. The modeller sounded great but when put next to the real deal it’s all wrong. The richness and depth of frequencies was completely different, the fractal sounded “hollow” by comparison.
Great conversation. I’m using the 4 cable method with a Boss ME-90 into a George Benson Hot Rod Deluxe. Many wonderful options from IRs to using the amp EQ as an enhancer. Floats my boat. Your knotage may vary.
I use a NU>X Amp Academy plugged into the Power Amp In of my Boss Katana 50 MkII, and I like it. I’ve never had a tube amp, but I get the breakup behavior from the Amp Academy while getting an actual speaker in the room from the Katana 50. Honestly, I’m quite happy with the setup and would use it in a gig that didn’t have a PA.
"Its not the amp in the room, its the amp, cab and speaker in the room" that is the succinct quote in all of this. I like my Helix, its great. But I like my Tone Master Deluxe Reverb I recently got with its 12" Celestion and open backed cab even more.
I use a Line6 Powercab112+ as my backline in Flat/LF RAW mode, which is just a powered Eminence guitar speaker, no tweeter. I don't put any cab model not this, but do to FOH and IEM. I have compared this to using the effects return input into a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with a Celestion Creamback speaker and it compares very well for that amp in the room sound. I use the Powercab because 1) it's lighter, and 2) I can use it in FRFR mode with a tweeter for acoustic tones. It's very flexible, reliable, reasonably light weight, a good size and sounds great. I find this to be an excellent compromise for live use. The key is to turn it up to where you would using a guitar amp in the room, and that's what it will sound like.
Use eqs, send the guitar mix with your favorite cab ir in front, and use whatever line out with EQ into amps, fx loops of tube amps, transisor power amp whatever, use real guitar cabs with good volume and it feel and sound good. Dont be afraid to eq the sound.
You are right in what you say, that is why I work making Real cab IRs exclusively for Helix (Which is the pedalboard I have and I notice that unlike Fractal for example, it does not have that real amp feeling in Frfr or PA) The IRs I make are different from all the others because what I do is recreate the interaction between the amp and the chosen cabinet system (cab size, open or closed and speaker models, everything influences). I have demo IRs for you to try with Helix in Frfr or Pa. I would love for you to try it and give me your opinion of my work with Helix. Great video! hug! Perry
The Line6 Powercab is only an FRFR if you set it to flat. If you want amp in the room, use one of the onboard speaker models but turn off the speaker model in your modellers. This only adds a mic on the xlr out of the powercab.
They definitely both have their place in the industry....although more and more modelers are really getting better in terms of acoustics and better fidelity.
I have found the answer for me. I run two 2 x 12 amps in stereo (through their returns) with a Nux mg30, that goes into an ABY. The other side of the ABY is a tube amp that i love. I mix the three amps, rhe Nux gives ne all the effects and gets close in sound to the tube amp, but the tube amp is what i hear and feel on stage. I only have a couple of pedals now for the tube amp, and i can fill out ir lightly add to the sound with the mg30 like icing on a cake. Works for me. I wish i had rhis rig for the lifetime of gigging i did.
I use an Amp1 Iridium in 4 cable method. I haven’t tried using the helix pre-amps. I go from the record out ( cab sim disabled) into a two notes Cab M +. I can use a cab or not and either way sounds great and my front of house sound is very consistent.
Yep, I tried everything. I had a Tonex. I have a Samp. I have the boss they all sound fake on some level and it is the interaction between the amp the power section of the amp tubes and the speakers. Especially gain settings. I just went back to my JX head and 412 cab best sound and feel like ever had.
I Bought a QC because i was tired of my amp sound so different in the room, compared to when micd up, and heard through inears. I eq the IR/Cab with a low cut at around 80hz and the high cut at around 6000hz. I then have an eq at the end of my chain (after reverbs and delays) with pretty much the same settings. I do this to not put out any frequencies an amp wouldnt.This, to me, sounds really great, and incredibly similar when heard through my inears, if i have a good engineer turning the knobs! When i dont hear it trhough a PA or inears, i will turn off the cab/ir but keep the EQ on, and go into the return of my pretty cheap boss nextone. The nextone also has some pretty decent power amp modelling options
I have a hunch that there is still room to improve the frontend, where the signal from the guitar is digitized. I have found that putting a really high quality DI box into, say, the XLR input on a Helix does something very interesting. Or the Benson germanium boost set to unity straight up.
My take on it and I’ve played them all, is there is a variability in a tube amp. I can’t explain it other than every component involved in producing the sound you play has a window of drift that can be affected by a whole host of variables that lends itself to sounding alive. I would agree that just listening, you’d be hard pressed to spot the difference, but as the player you can totally feel it and for some, for me, it’s what I prefer. Maybe because that’s what I learned on. There’s just an organic interaction with a good tube amp. A digital sim or a profile is just a snapshot and feels sterile. For me it’s in all the sounds that are not necessarily musical. The string noise under your fingers when sliding, the string noise under your palm, the instant attack of your pick on the strings. All the little things come together to create a more authentic experience. In a mix, nobody cares.
What people who complain about modelers not sounding like an amp in the room seem to forget is that the real amp won’t sound like the amp in the room EITHER. So much of the amp in the room experience is down to speakers moving air. Especially if we’re talking overdriven amps. That’s also why most audiences won’t notice if you use a modeler either… because most of them will hear the mic’d signal anyway! Thing is modern modelers and the great IRs they have absolutely nail the to e of recorded amp.
I think the ‘quiet stage thing’ is killing the vibe a lot. Sure it makes no difference in a stadium or arena…but when you go to see a band in an academy or similar hearing the spill from the stage is magic. I saw Jeff Beck in Southend and sat infront of him and I could hear his plexi roaring away from the stage. In my opinion this is all part of the gig going experience. As a musician I’m sad that 99% of my gigs are ‘silent’ or ‘quiet’ stages. I get that it makes the sound engineers job easier…but they managed for decades so I don’t see why they can’t manage now. We can’t lose all of the vibe of a live gig.
I play - intermittantly - at small local gigs... and when I'm at home, I often play through various modellers on my iPad or Mac - because I can... and sometimes it's fun. But - when it counts and I'm out - I play through an Orange Crush 20RT, with a Cube Baby multiFX where I've got some good IRs loaded - and it sounds great. Other thing - at most small venues - the 20RT is way more than powerful enough; I've never had it more than 40% of full chug!
One of the things im most excited about changing over to digital modelling /helix LT from tube amps, The ability to dial in dynamic ambience effect when using IEMs! For testing-If you set dynamic ambience onto your expression pedal between 50% mix and 75% and rock between those positions to find the sweet spot with iems/cans on, Game changer.
I've played live music for more than 15 years using digital and analog rigs. If you want to be heard and find the perfect spot on a full band mix, use a valve amp and mic the speaker.
Excellent Video. That is what I tell everybody for years. Its not the "AMP IN THE ROOM" sound, it is the "CAB IN THE ROOM" sound! Good point with the high cut, THE solution for getting a good sound in headphones/in ear and of course FRFR. I have actually been playing a lot of gigs with a modeller (FM3) and a seymour duncan power stage into a mesa 1x12 V30 cab. Even here, high cut makes all the difference! And you still get that "CAB IN THE ROOM" sound without carrying too much shit around ;)
It just comes down to moving air around with the speakers whether it's a guitar cab or modeler going through PA speakers, you are never going to get an "amp in the room" feel in your headphones or earbuds.
The "amp in the room" thing has been debated both good and bad from day 1 of modelling. I got my Helix just after launch and still use it today. I'm now a "bedroom player" so don't need realism at high stage volumes. My thoughts have always been that when amp in the room is talked about, the chain is guitar/amp/speaker/room. Modelling is a little different, it's guitar/amp/mic'd speaker. Modelling works for me as I now just noodle along to my favourite albums. So getting that polished/studio sound works. I get it won't be for everyone, so that is when as suggested, you can take a modelled amp, minus the IRand run it through a real power amp/speaker. combination. Another great subject JNC...
Two vamps are awesome and like Keith Richards said perfection from the beginning. If you can’t live with the modeling, then I suggest put Ernie ball casters on your speaker cabinets and your combo lamps and roll them around. That’s what I did. I never had a great high game, but I had a music man him which is awesome and its day. I’d roll it in wherever I wanted it on its side, popped the casters off, stuck it in the back tried to put my amp in a place where I could really hear it crank the thing up And I had a Wawa pedal clean and dirt channel basically that was it perfection lol. The problems with a real tube app is what you hear and whatever everybody else hears is not the same. It’s harder to make things up than the microphones can fail the room could have noises that you don’t like, etc. etc. When I first got my first modeling amp, it was the line 6. Their first one the first time I was able to get high gain sounds it also get fender amp sounds plus enough effects and stereo that ran through a 212 inch cabinet if I remember right And you did get an amp in the room Sound maybe it wasn’t as authentic as your 10 grand mark Ness boogie so now I have a helix and twoFRFR speakers that I set right in front of and if you play low volumes that has a great sound, but if you crank it up, it gets too bright I think that’s the characteristic of our speaker. Adjust your knobs for the higher levels. The same thing you would have to do with the tamp. If you’re playing live, each room would have its characteristics and you’d still have to adjust your tone. It’s like the acoustic guitar you can play your wood acoustic guitars at home. They sound great the minute. You need to record them. You have to put microphones on them. You have to put, some kind of reverb on it maybe even a ribbon in the room and you can get some great but on the stage it’s a big problem. Sure they’ve got it sounding really good and using any ears and low stage volumes, etc. they’ve come along way with processing guitars, what a bunch of trouble. Grabbing your grand two bands and trying to take them to a gig where they don’t even want you to bring them anymore breaking your back, rolling them around somebody spill a beer on it somebody drop it. And doesn’t really sound that much different, I say they don’t. I love a good vamp so digital modeling is a guitarist dream. You can buy a model and have the whole kitchen sink of the fax ants cabinets IR whatever you want the whole store stuff and with my helix total control how I turn it on change it stomp turn things on and off in the single switch. If you just have a clean metal and a dirty sound, that’s all you play. You’ll get your too bad and do it but if you wanna plug your acoustic guitar, you wanna process that real quick wanna send it to your doll? You wanna take it to a gig sure you have to reset some presets so it sounds right, you know the sound check I don’t know why everybody’s crying over it lol
Hey John - excellent breakdown. As always, your insight is very helpful for players on the fence or struggling with on-stage sound. I use an HX Stomp XL and Powercab+ live and am in a happy place. I've found the OwnHammer Deluxe Reverb IRs fantastic for warmth on the clean sounds and am starting to warm to the latest "heavy amp" (Rectifier / 5150) Cabs in the Helix firmware (Been using Fremen IRs for years). Also, I regularly use the out into the effects return of backline successfully. Like you, I have quite a few great tube amps and use them - when the gig allows. Having said all this, I'm also an IT pro, so UI, editing and patching is not an issue for me, but can be for old school tube amp guys. Over the years I've set up and trained quite a few studios and players on how to navigate the digital UI with great results. We live in an amazing age where modelers and plug-ins can offer so much to us for so little. Keep up your fantastic work!
Run the modeling into a power amp into a real amp cab. Don’t use IRs. Are people really wondering why IRs into FRFR don’t sound like an amp in the room? Modeling with IRs to me are for recording or a live situation where you would have had that micd up sound anyway.
Interesting. Our band has two guitarists, me being one of them. We’ve both used various solutions over the years. The most interesting thing is that, certainly in rehearsals when we’re not mic’d up, each of us *always* prefers the tone of the other, on the other side of the room, no matter what the gear. Go figure. The only times I’ve preferred my own tone is when it’s too loud for everyone else in the band.
Real speaker cab and then they do. I A/B’d my V40 head against HX Stomp>solid state power amp - both into the same speaker cab. They’re indistinguishable, so I sold the V40.
@@mrcoatsworth429 I use the power section of a Quilter Superblock (running the Stomp into the effects return of the Quilter). Cheap uncolored power. Cheers.
@@mrcoatsworth429 oh, I should’ve mentioned, while I don’t use a speaker cab block in the stomp for this setup, I still use power amp emulation in the Stomp because the Quilter doesn’t impart any power amp character.
I use two Hot Rod Devilles and run my helix to a stereo D.I. Sending full modelled signal to FOH and run cables from the Thru output to the amp returns. Sounds amazing. Great feel and thickens your tone.
Well they do. It's just that they sound like real amps with a microphone in front, going through a professional desk into either recorded medium or a PA. Actual physical valve amplifiers will always vary in sound dependant on the environment that we hear them in, whereas there is greater continuity with modern digital modellers and profilers
Anyone listening to your music will be hearing it either through a FoH system or via an MP3, CD or vinyl record. In both cases the sound they hear from any real amp/cab will be via a close mic, a mic preamp and a mix console/DAW. Nobody other than yourself will ever hear the raw sound of your favourite tube amp/cab in your home studio room or on stage. The amp modellers are going for a digital reproduction of the close mic -> mic preamp -> mix console/DAW sound, not the amp in the room. The modelers are very, very good at doing that. I have an ancient 50w Marshal plexi I bought second hand in 1979 and an equally ancient Hiwatt 4x12 that I played for donkey's years. Then I bought Cubase a few years ago. Wow! Shortly afterwards I got a Kemper. Now I have a Axe-fx III which IMHO knocks the spots off the Kemper. I just plug my Axe-fx III into Cubase via my AI and Cubase loves it (as do my family and my neighbours). It sounds like a real record when I play it back. I haven't played my priceless Plexi for years. I dust it occasionally out of respect and reverence. I keep meaning to try it out again one day out of nostalgia but only after I've forked out the price of a small family car on pedals, mics, a decent new cab and a good attenuator to match what I can do with the Axe-fx. Otherwise I can't see the point.
Tube effect return or tube power amp in is indeed a decent solution that gets you *closer.* I bought a Line 6 Spider Valve 212 used for $300. The amp alone is a decent tube amp with a stellar power amp. It sends even the power amp in through the 12AX7 preamp tubes, and then through the 6L6 Bogner power amp. It was designed for this, and it does a great job being flexible. Comes with two v30’s in a birch cab for that $300, so it paid for itself almost.
Hi-pass and Low-pass EQ. Then use a QSC 10.2. This is key. Before when I was using headrush I had complaints. Best sound and feel I've ever had, including 20 years of tube amps with the QSC.
I used REW to measure my real cabs and use the global PEQ in my AXE FX 3 to make them as flat As possible from 100 to 6000 HZ . I do use the cab blocks and it sounds and feels good no matter what speaker IRs In the cab block. I used to use tube power amps but have the best results with a class D power amp with the amp block power amp modeling on.
I always tell people that they dont miss the amp in the room sound, they miss rhe cab in the room sound. A modeller into a clean poweramp is every bit as good as an amp into a cab.
I’m far from a tube snob. I used cheap solid state amps for yrs. As I got better I wanted better equipment. The difference between a tube amp and how it feels and sounds and how it takes pedals is different. I do have modelers but I am not in love with them. They will never be exactly like a tube amp because they’re not. The problem I’m having is playing the modeler with songs and it doesn’t sound right. Amps do. It’s obvious to others in the room as well. But I like fooling with the quad and I am keeping it. I’ve only had some great Amps for 10? Yrs and less. So they’re staying. An overlooked good modeler that sounds and feels really good is the Yamaha double modeler hd100. It’s also a keeper. P S I’m using a real cab with my quad.
tried line6, kemper, johnson millenium from 25 years ago...not until Axe FX 3 was i finally able to no longer discern a tonal difference between modelers and real mic'ed amps. This is of course with my own custom preset each based on the guitar used and the studio speakers it plays through.
Great video. I agree that a highly directional guitar speaker (at higher freqs) with room reflections is never going to be captured with IRs that are captured with mics and then reproduced with full range and much less directional speakers. Are IRs available that remove mics from the equation? I guess I want to hear a guitar speaker sound, not a mic’s sound
I recently switched to a JBL Eon “stick PA” with my POD go. Absolutely amazing IMO. I believe it’s because the line array tweeters & sub woofer create that wide dispersal sound - that is just what the doctor ordered for modelers. Far superior to a directional FRFR. And of course I roll off the treble around 6K, and bass around 60k. Try it. You’ll be glad you did.
Just b4 I watched this I watched Burgs demo the Redwood power amp into a Laney 2 x V30 cab using Fractal and he was saying this was a great sound in the room. Again as said it is the speaker movement which studio monitor or PA speakers dont do. I use my Tonex one or Fractal into the send of my Katana and that is like amp in the room. I do it for fun as my stuff is never live with a band always studio stuff and there is no doubt in my mind that the workflow and sound from modellers in the studio is easier and superior to microphones to speakers which I have done a lot of in the past. I also watched Andy James talking with the Captain whose band now use Kemper as it is reliable and gets the sound they want where the amps tend to be unreliable and more to go wrong. FRFR speakers to me is like using a PA and will never work although Guthrie seems to do a good job with his Laneys.😄😄
In fractal axe-fx iii you can add farfield / room IRs additionally to standard IR. I use 2 normal IRs and 2 room IRs but reduced in volume and hard panned and all 4 IRs are mixed to create the feeling of reflections also bouncing from walls and "amp in the room" thing
I still use a tube power amp and cab with my AxeFx Ultra. Sound wise it’s probably a minimal difference but feel and touch response wise it’s something I prefer. Newer modelers sound amazing listening back but all have a different feel when playing through them. Personal preference.
I love my FM9 - endless fun creating sounds- after playing guitar for 60 years, I know what I hear and what I like. Having said this, there is no sound like a guitar plugged into a tube amp- that’s it.
Thanks for the video. Everyone has good comments. I enjoy both, and like many have said, they have their uses or fun ways to blend them. i have only 2 tube amps now, but i have 3 different tube power amps. What a fun time to play guitar. I have finally stopped chasing the amp in the room tone because i realized, like some have mentioned these are two different animals. Takebthe sounds for what they are, if you on monday feel like a tube powered sound with a digital unit, grab the tube power amp. If you want all the digital sound later on, enjoy that. They're all good, Just dont get wrapped around the amp in the room sound.
Mainly because people don’t use them as an amp in a room. By their nature, they are the sound of a post-production guitar tones - the way amps sound on albums. The first thing that should be obvious is, as soon as you are choosing a virtual microphone and microphone placement, it should tell you that this is not going to be the sound of an amp in the room. Similarly, you might choose a nice cabinet IR, let’s say a nice Marshall 4x12 cab, but then you go and listen yourself playing, out of a set of DAW monitors, or headphones. That’s not going to add up to the sound of a real amp in the room. If people want to get closer, they need to ditch the computer out of the signal altogether, get something like one of those UAFX pedals like the Lion, and then plug that into the power amp input of an amp (or just a rack power amp) that’s running into a real cabinet. It still may not sound 100% like the real thing, but you’ve eliminated all the “studio” factors that make it sound like a recording of a guitar, or like a mic’d amp in an isolation room that you’re listening to through monitors or headphones. Also stop trying to polish the sound up with noise gates or any other tools in the modeller. Amps in the room with you do not sound polished. It should be raw and natural, and have imperfections.
Modellers don't model the sound of an amp in the room. They model the sound of a recorded amp. That's a different thing. It's like hearing the voice of someone speaking directly to you, versus hearing a radio DJ's voice that's gone through a mic, preamp, compression, limiting, eq and a speaker.
I use the Two-Notes Opus to go direct. I'm using analog overdrives, and a JFET based Fender style clean preamp. The Two-Notes stuff has a power amp sim...not sure if it makes a difference, but nobody can tell I'm not using an amp.
As an electrical engineer I can tell you that linear systems can be modeled using an impulse response. Guitar amps come close to being a linear system only when they are super clean. Harmonic distortion exists in guitar amps even when dialed in clean. The non-linear response is the part that digital modeling can't accurately reproduce. IR is impulse response. The IR only characterises the linear response. Distortion happens when the amp is operating in a non linear mode. Cabinets also are highly non-linear. Impulse response is incapable of modeling non-linear systems. Linear Systems is an electrical engineering class about modeling linear systems. Digital filters are still linear models. So using cab models are just using digital filters trying to copy the non linear response of a cabinet. The linear response of a cabinet or an amp depends on the input signal level. That is the magic of tube amps and speaker cabinets that is missing from modeling amps. Older players or people with lots of experience playing tube amps (especially without pedals) will notice how a modeling amp doesn't respond in the non linear fashion to thier changes in dynamics, like how hard or softly they pick as well as changes to the volume and tone knobs of thier guitars. Younger players who have only known digital amps modeling won't miss what they never knew. To my ear, modeling amps sound great, but lack the tonal response to dynamic variations in playing that I depend on and that makes playing a tube amp a joy and playing a modeling amp sterile and dissapointing. (In a former life I designed digital audio and analog mic preamps for a well known company that made guitar amps. I never designed any guitar amps. )
I giged on a real Fender twin for years, had been on Helix for the last 8 years and never missed that part about the real Twin one bit. All it did was give me a hard time cuz I hate listening to loud volumes, also giving the rest of the band to keep up with the amp, giving the singers a hard time to even hear themselves on stage, and giving the sound guy a hard time to ballance out the entire band.
I use a quad cortex with fryette ps 100 valve power amp and Mesa 4x12 with no IR. The valve power amp makes such massive difference to making it feel like an amp, I have a SD power stage 700 as well and it's a lot more sterile in comparison. Still really good but the fryette is way better. It just sounds and plays like the real thing but all in 1 unit, run a path in QC with an IR to PA. Best of both worlds.
It's the polar response of the cab, and also the room-those two things interact in a way no current modeler + monitor can completely capture. I suppose a modeler that worked in something like a surround format could do better (it would need a lot more DSP and multiple monitors!), but even that wouldn't capture how your amp interacts with your room. -Tom
Oh, and another question to all those people playing on stage: you said, your XYZ sounds great or not so great. How do you know? Who played your guitar when you were out there in the audience to listen? All we are talking here is how the monitors sound, not what the audience gets to hear. Maybe we should let FOH select the equipment we use?
My best advice to any of you guys on here thinking. How can i get more of a amp feel and sound....simply run any HX or modelers into return of a decent amp. I use a Katana artist which has 13 different IRs built in ...in real time. It reduces latency if you use any unit that isnt Boss. Boss is the only almost zero latency modeler. Also as a amp i use the IRX which will also reduce latency. And viola there is your amp in the room sound. Also using real cabs in stereo is a even bigger sound .
An amp Moeller is the sound of an amp in the room. It’s just another room from the one you are in. It’s like being in a recording studio and playing in the control room with your amp moved up in the live room. There is no better way to hear an amp, real or modelled, than through a guitar cabinet. The only reason not to use a guitar cabinet on stage is because the stage is silent and/or you are using in ears.
My concern here is minimal. I can’t remember the last time I played a gig with an amp where I thought my sound was perfect. It was stuck at the back behind the drums or it was under me because there was no room and so I never really heard the amp as it might have been. Now we have the dilemma of modellers doing exactly the same thing. Live sound, unless you are involved in some huge touring show with no expense spared, is always a compromise. Guitarists tweak constantly whether it be an old valve amp or the latest digital modeller. Just keep tweaking your knobs, everything will be fine.
I got a Kemper about 6 months ago and absolutely love it. Not their power head unfortunately but this is alright. Recently I came across scoring a cool old Altec 1569a power amp. I put this on the end of the Kemper and whole E shit is it amazing. I got some good profiles like Tone Junkies AC-30 and any tube snob tells me that doesn’t slap is fucking deaf. So the Kemper used I paid $800 and the Altec $500. That’s a pretty good cost to what I have I think and not taking a bunch of space. I need about 3-4 amps to do my sets
Simple answer: A copy can never be better than the original! Quite apart from this, a real tube amp you can mod alone with swapping tubes, but also by replacing some resistors, capacitors, transformers, to fine-tune your amp, but you hardly ever can do this with digital gear. The other thing is, without real anolog gear no digital copies and simulations existed! But, meanwhile there also is a lot of great analog and digital gear existing, which open a lot more options. I have tube pedals, which meanwhile make a complete tube amp obsolete, as they sound top-nothc, load boxes allow to transform the sound of a fully cranked 100W amp down to line-level without sound loss, cab IR's and IR-loader pedals even allow IR use on stage and one of my most used gear are a linked pair of ISP Decimator II's, to emiminate almost every noise within the signal chain. The other thing is, hwo many great sounds do you need? Almost all my guitar heroes played Marshall Plexis in the 1970's (or an AC-30 or DR-103), so they only had a single sound (more or less) and guitar volume and nevertheless even today you hardly hear anybody, which comes close to them, not tonally, much less musically. Today every amateur has access to tons of different (fake-)amp sounds, nevertheless they all finally sound the same and musically nothing innovative or outstanding happens since decades, just endless, stereotypical, warmed up repetitions. Makes me think about.... Even my decades old JMP-1 preamp or my even older JD-10 pedal still sound awesome today only with a good cab IR behind, so today there are a lot of great options, to get great sounds, or even to get your own, unique sound through a lot of different ways. For me the advantage is, that I can get the same, authentic real tube (amp) sounds into my computer, for recording or on stage, if I want, with a real amp or even without one, but without any compromises concerning quality, while even the best digital amp simulation solutions means making compromises for me. You can use complete tube amps, tube pedals or preamps, analog gear or also digital gear alone, but the results hardly will be exactly the same, I think. A different thing are IR's, they make life much easier and less heavy weighted, while offering a lot more options. Just like a good load box. So my way is, combining the best of both worlds, where it makes sense, but I still need a least one or two tubes in my circuit, to be happy with the results.
Try turning the cab sim off and instead putting a custom low pass filter after the amp block/sim followed by an EQ block to emphasize certain frequencies.
As someone who has been in the digital world for over 20 years, I can say without any hesitation that THE most important thing to get desired results is the IR. It's at LEAST 80% of your tone. My advice would be once you have found your favourite IR...stick with that.
Many people coming to digital from the Tube Amp world can't get over the idea that generally, digital modellers are replicating an amp and speaker MIC'D UP. Most people will never actually of heard their own tube amp and speaker mic'd up, and the discrepancy in sound is simply to large for them to enjoy. Of course it is...it's totally different - depending on many factors such as microphone used etc. The 'amp in the room' sound' and a mic'd up sound through 1) a mic 2) the input device (mixer/channel) and 3) monitors are TOTALLY different things. And because of this, they are not really meant to be compared anyway.
Well said!!
Strangely I have gotten really good results going into a small Roland keyboard amp. It was portable, quiet and did not have the hiss you get with FRFR cabs. It is still not perfect but you get an amp in the room feel and you can send stereo outs into the p.a.
Every guitar tone that inspired me to learn to play comes from a recording, that is, it is a processed and microphoned tone and in a mix, EVH, SRV, Hedrix, Nuno, Vai and a long list of musicians with whom I have never been or will be. in the same room to know how they sound that way. Curiously, those tones of a microphoned amplifier and with that extra post processing, I have achieved it from digital, something that I never achieved with my tube amplifiers
Yeah that's why I hate these "But does it sound like an amp in the room??" discussions. It's not supposed to sound like an amp in the room! It's supposed to sound like an amp mic'd up in another room.
It’s not 80% of the tone. More like 50% and that also depends on the models interaction with the speaker impedance curve. I agree with you though. Think of it like having a bunch of heads you like in the real world and running them through the same cab.
Started my digital journey as many did with the Strymon Iridium. Initially I was unhappy as I couldn't get it to sound close enough to my tube amps which is what my ears were trained to hear for decades. Now, years later, I realize digital is its own thing and can be just as cool especially when it comes to ease of recording. Once I stopped trying to chase my tube amps and just dial in a good digital tone things changed for the better. Will always have both now.
Do you recommend the Iridium ?
@@benallmark9671 It still holds up for me years later but I prefer clean to semi-breakup tones which is where I feel it still excels. I also learned to dial it in with a compressor and boost pedal in front of it and some EQ settings in my DAW depending on which guitar and Iridium setting I'm recording with. Iridium sounds decent out of the box but you can take it to the next level with some effort and experimentation.
@@bladestratford great info , thanks for the response. I appreciate it.
i use a 212 cab with a power amp and my helix running straight in with cab blocks and irs removed . sounds fantastic.
I started using In-Ears with a tube amp around 2010. Around the same time I was using the PodHD500 and then the 500X with the tube amp switching off the cabs on the 500X. When the Helix came out I switched to that and I was already used to hearing my guitar and the rest of the band in my In-Ears so I ditched the tube amp and went straight to Front Of House and didn't miss not having a real amp as I never really heard it anyway.
I’ve found on the Helix adding a stereo dynamic ambiance verb at the end of the chain gives it the life that an amp in the room has. You can even tweak the high cut on the reverb to add or remove the frequencies that the reverb would be absorbing to get a more realistic feel
Give amp and cab their own reverb, one after the other
You don't need a tube amp to get the "amp in the room" sound. Any power amp into a cab is enough for every modeler out there, that sounds decent to begin with.
I don't really get why people have this kind of problem, because the solution is not only so easy, but obvious and intuitive as well.
Because for decades, players have been told the "magic" in a tube amp comes from the tubes. They believe that, so the lack of tubes in a modeler must be an inherent flaw (don't ask them about the Rocktron Prophecy, though). It's frequently a form of gatekeeping, like the greybeards who swear not a single good guitar was made after the 60's.
Agree 100%. I am a die hard amp guy, but I am also not a luddite. My QC captures sound absolutely identical to my rigs. I am a guitarist and a bassist so I simply use the return on my Mesa boogie class D for a power section and use a guitar cab or a bass cab and it sounds perfect whenever I want volume. Sold off all my amps except for my two favorites. Kept a few cabs. On stage send the modeler signal with IR to FOH, non IR to power section and cab. Done.
Also: tinnitus fucking blows. Stage volume is overrated.
Every guitar tone that inspired me to learn to play comes from a recording, that is, it is a processed and microphoned tone and in a mix, EVH, SRV, Hedrix, Nuno, Vai and a long list of musicians with whom I have never been or will be. in the same room to know how they sound that way. Curiously, those tones of a microphoned amplifier and with that extra post processing, I have achieved it from digital, something that I never achieved with my tube amplifiers
Modelers are great for recording. In the context of a studio album, I can't tell the difference. It's live in the room where they break down. But if your goal is just to sound like a recording, then yes, modelers offer more features to get you there.
True, but most of those riffs and tones were created by someone in a room playing through an amp. It’s not so much about tone, but how it makes you feel while playing it. I’ve owned pretty much every modeller out there and I always feel uninspired and the amount of choice gives me option paralysis. I always end up going back to an amp and some pedals.
That compression is the fundamental difference. An uncompressed amp has a totally different feel to a compressed digital experience.
Yeah because a modeller is the whole recording chain. You can put fx and stuff after the microphone like in a studio.
@@vibrevtonez2421
Then it's you, not digital gears.
Cuz plenty of people create good songs with digital gears no problem.
For me, it's not the “sound” or “tone” that’s so different; it’s the overall experience. And you need to get the volume up to a certain level for that difference to be meaningful. If you’re matching tones at low volumes, it’s a bit pointless. An amp at the right volume in the room is incredibly dynamic. It breathes. It feels like it’s talking back to you. A great tube amp fills the room with a three-dimensional sound. It blooms. The speakers change the air. The sound feeds back through the guitar's pickups. There are so many experiential differences that are tough to pinpoint. It’s not the recorded tone, the EQ, distortion, or compression. It’s the dynamics and the feel. But I’m not a snob about it. I love all of it, and I’m only turning my tube amps on when I can get the volume right. At lower volume it’s all digital, and that’s where I spend most of my time. The tube amp experience is for special moments when I can open it up and fill the room.
I hear what you're saying, and, think you make some good points, but, also, have you ever listened to an amp modeller through a full frequency, high wattage set of studio monitors? I have a pair of Event Opals and a Rhythmik Audio sub in my control room, and, can crank my Opals to be as loud as my amps, and, the bloom, the feedback, that three dimensional sound is definitely there. I have the luxury of having my amps at the back of my room, and, my studio monitors at the front. Both my amps (I have a Fender Bassman Tweed amp and a Victory Kraken) are connected to load boxes which feed my Opus IR boxes. At the flick of a switch, I can go between monitoring my amps through their speakers, and, monitoring them through my studio monitors (and my amps go quiet aka a dummy load). There are some differences, but, at high volumes, less than you'd think.
@@thetruevineproductions Nice! Makes sense 😎
A Seymour Duncan PowerStage 170 and a 1x12 cab. I don’t even send an ir to that cab. So I adjust the amp modeler to the speaker cab. Sounds and feels the more real! Been playing that rig on the road and on Broadway in Nashville since 2017.
I've got an HX stomp. I run the main output including the cab sim, at instrument level, to a DI box that I use to convert to XLR connection and line level to front of house or recording. and for amp in the room i split the signal path before the cab sim so it's excluded, and run that to the send output at instrument level and into a seymour duncan power stage 170 and run that into a guitar cab. the whole rig fits on a pedal board and works great!
What I found really helps is just simply turning the IR itself up. Before I had third party IRs I was using the Helix cab block and what I would do is run an EQ and a boosted after the cab block. Also, if you have a headrush put the volume at about noon and then control the volume on the Helix accordingly. Eventually you'll find that sweet spot. It's all about the volumes can really help it cut through the mix
Full disclosure. I have a 80s Mesa Boogie Studio 22 Calibre+ and a 70s Fender Twin. I love them both. After many years not playing I got back in he swim last year. I recently bought a Pod Go and I love it too. Its tonal capabilities and effects are astounding. I think the snobbiness of "Hey, man. Tubes are discernibly better," is utter cobblers (UK slang expression for drivel). I can't wait for my next gig when I can swerve the possibility of giving myself a double hernia in humping the Twin up two flights of stairs by using the Pod Go instead. That's before I begin to consider the "Emperor's new clothes" syndrome associated with this debate. Not to mention the high maintenance costs my old faithfuls have hit me with me over the years: re-tubing, balancing and setting up. I don't believe most of us could tell the difference in a blind test between tubes and a good quality modeller. And the punters definitely couldn't... and neither would they care one jot.
I'm going to start using "utter cobblers "from now on, That has to be the coolest slang I've ever heard.
I agree and how many years later was it until people learned that Brian May a number of times used the tiny solid state Deacy amp and no one listening to the records knew (or cared)?
I’ve always been a tube amp purist until I got some amp sims and realized how great they sound and was able to record in my house anytime I wanted. You pair these sims with a great room sim plugin and it’s 90% of the way there, IMO. Pair that with good mixing and good production and it’s barely a compromise.
When I grabbed a real amp+cab rig again after 6+ years of nothing but FRFR solutions, I did notice a big difference in the room. Clean tones suddenly had more life, more sparkle about them. Conversely, my high gain tones were suddenly blooming in a way I didn't like, filling the room with resonant bass frequencies and punishing me for picking hard.
The reason is largely the filtering that a microphone has on a signal. If you could remove the microphone from the equation, a perfectly FRFR speaker should be able to accurately recreate the sound of "amp in the room". I can't show you how the amp in the room sounds without inviting you over - as soon as I put a microphone on it (be it an SM57, or my iPhone mic from the other side of the room), it's adding that layer of filtering.
One thing I can dispel pretty easily, is that there's no magic in a tube amp. Running a tube amp into a load box into a cab sim is exactly as sparkly and magical as running a plugin into a cab sim. I tried a few blind tests with this setup and couldn't accurately pick them apart.
A real frfr cab won’t ever be able to accurately recreate guitar cab sound cause tweeters will always play high frequencies in a different way…btw your point is mostly valid
Thank you. Your last paragraph was my very first question.
I use my hx stomp into a small harley benton poweramp, and into a 2x12. Live gigs i micup the speaker, and run the second output of the stomp into an ir loader and to foh. Must say i think it is the best of 2 worlds. I get to listen to a real cab, and i dont have to break my back lifting a tubeamp 😃
@@christianpucciarelli Good point, I overlooked that aspect
yeah, I hate when these discussions are framed as amp modelers vs real amps, when, in reality, they are almost universally real cabs vs IRs (be it through an fr-fr, or both recorded).
IRs can’t recreate what a cab does because they are a snapshot of one cab through a specific mic, at a specific position, in a specific room. If you play another cab (even if the same model) and listen to it with your ears, on your room, while moving around, of course, the experience is going to be different, it’s also going to be useless. The only tone that really matters is the recorded tone, everything else is just having some fun.
As I am getting back to playing guitar after 35yrs hiatus. I’m finding there are tons of electronics that can produces wonderful sounds. I never had pedal effects 35 yrs ago, just a strat and a 25w amp. Gains and reverb came from the amp. Now I’m stuck in this rabbit hole in search of the sounds I want. I spent more time looking/buying pedals than actually playing. To me a good musician is the one that creates beautiful sound even in a cheap equipment.
I agree.
The chase for the "perfect" sound is so distracting. I stopped it and went simple. I bought a Positive Grid Spark Go that I can set up in no time where I want. With this I play and practice a very lot more than before and got much better in playing guitar. And just with that comes also an overall better sounds (from yourself).
Btw that little mini amp sounds amazingly good. Just pre-ordered the Spark 2 which has also an integrated Looper which helps me even more with my practicing.
@@MasterMojo85 I’m still stuck in the pedals rabbit holes but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. Will go with simple set up next year with Quad Cortex or Fender ToneMaster Pro. I also want to cut down from 15 to 5 guitars.
Perhaps around 99.9% of people won’t even know it’s an amp modeler/simulator until you tell them it is.
And when you finally convince them that it was am amp sim/modeler they go “ yeah, so thats why it sounded much worse than THE REAL thing” 🙄
Fuck people, it’s the guitarist that ultimately matters. If the guitarist isn’t happy and having fun and playing then *people* get nothing.
I think that says more about how much you value other people’s opinions than worrying about if a tool is effective or not. Who cares what “they” think. Tf is wrong with you bro
I think I’m giving up on amp modeling for live gigs for the time being. What I’ve found as a cover band guitarist is that trying to use modeled tones for the wide variety of songs leads down a rabbit hole to option overload. So I’ve started using a Quilter Superblock with my analog pedalboard into a 1 or 2 by 12 cab. I send the cab emulated out to FOH and all is good. Now I can tweak everything on the fly as needed. I still use modeling at home and for rehearsals. Integrating digital live is just too static for me unless I create a patch for every song (which I’m just not going to do). (Sorry for going on like that).
Solid solution.
Frankly speaking I don’t care. I’m happy I can make music. If others don’t like it refer to the first sentence. Enjoy your music while you can
I was thinking that same thing the other day. I got a helix about three months ago and I’ve been digging it but last night I realized it really didn’t sound that real, but that I really didn’t care.😂
It's not really the modelers that I hate, it's that overproduced, reverb and delay drenched sound that a lot of people get out of them. That "worship music" sound, cant stand it. It's so unbelievably contrived
I feel the same, Im just happy that I can have so many different tones in the same box, some of the amp models I have never even heard the real amp with my guitar plugged in, I do however know what type of sound they produce and I am happy with the digital modelling of those amps.
Yeah… but people do care. Most of us grew up playing amps. Switch to a modeler because you hear it’s great, “JUST LIKE ALL THE AMPS!” They say, and then you find out you’ve lost the interaction between your guitar and the amp and cab, something about it is less fun, you’re no longer getting lost in the playing as you try to fix what’s been lost and cannot fully be gotten back… unless of course you bought Fractal, which might have gotten you a little father. Still a lot of the fun missing even if it’s about 10% worth. Modelers don’t push a cab the same either. It’s close, but it’s weird.
@@jaykelley103 hell yes it is. These people need to go back and listen to Creed 😂
I have used a modeler and tube power amp with guitar cab for almost 20 years. You cant really compare this configuration to running into a FRFR using an IR since it doesnt represent the same kind of chain and the FRFR speaker is also a very different speaker compared to a guitar speaker/cab. The modeler chain is like: Amp-->guitar cab-->Microphone (all modeled)--> FRFR, the chain with guitar power amp and guitar cab is like: Amp (modeled)-->Power amp --> guitar cab. On the other hand, If you mic the guitar cab and put it through the PA and also connect the modeler directly to the PA with an IR then it can sound pretty much the same through the PA in an ideal situation, so from an audience perspective its pretty much the same but a guitar cab vs FRFR on stage isnt going to be the same for the guitar player.
Finally someone straightening things up. The issue is not what sounds best in a mix, FOH, in ear etc. 12" speakers moving air is what real amps has always been about (or 10" for that matter).
Speakers. Cabinets. Harmonics and sub harmonics we feel but actually don’t ‘hear’….and….no two tube amps of the same model will sound absolutely identical once you get intimately familiar with your personal gear…especially with different speakers, cabs, etc….just find a sound that inspires you to play your best and stop chasing someone else’s tone that was sculpted in a studio or even live 40 to 50 years ago and remixed and eq’d on a board etc…btw, I’m 65 years young and played thru tons of the gear considered holy relics today. Sounded great at ear bleeding levels but I would have died for the options we have available today when I was 16 years old….just my experience….rock on
I think on a recent “amp in the room” vid on the fractal G66 CZcams page, Cooper went through how to use a filter and eq block to simulate the amp in the room sound and I really thought it was worth watching. I feel like there’s some sort of midrange push of a tube amp live that seems to sound a little bigger. I love my FM9 turbo, but also love my Marshall jcm800’s at certain venues. The good news is that the modelers are getting closer and closer to being identical 🤘🏼
I only play at home, from bedroom volume to loud but comfortable, though the setup has plenty of headroom and was really cheap. I bought a 12" speaker second hand (Jensen from a deluxe reverb reissue), made a cab out of mdf, and bought a Warwick gnome bass amp and a joyo reamp box. If you want to go down a similar route these tips might be useful, but sorry for the wall of text.
Important tips (skip to the inflator bit if these are too obvious):
A low latency audio interface and a good computer are a must
Without a reamp box you'll probably get terrible noise issues from your computer.
The reamp box won't stop your single coils picking up interference, but finding the right position and direction to face can make all the difference if it's a problem.
Flat eq is really important at the amp stage! The gnome I bought has a line out after the gain stage, use it to find flat eq settings by sending a signal out and comparing the return signal to the original. I used an eq with left/right split, original left, return right. The tc bam is really popular, too. Cheap, small, flat enough with the right settings. For my gnome it's somewhere around; bass down a bit @10:00 middle up a bit @3:00 treble down a bit @9:00.
My gnome amp has soft background noise as master volume goes up, but with gain at noon and an output from my daw safely below clipping, I can turn the master volume to almost nothing and still get louder than I need with zero hiss. This may just be my unit, and it's solvable at home volumes, and you wouldn't hear it at higher volumes.
With helix native, if you can't get flat eq, try the preamp blocks, they sound really lively, dynamic and clear. I was really tempted to stop experimenting at this point, but I wanted an authentic deluxe reverb sound, and the breakup comes more from the power tubes. If you can get flat eq, try amp blocks but set the master volume down a bit (or a lot) and use channel volume to bring it back up. I still use helix for pedals but the amp models didn't feel as nice to me as neural amp modeler (free).
Neural dsp plugins feel like they have a slight compressor on the output, comparing to my small tube amp the tone king didn't feel real. However, (with cab block turned off) turning the output to max and lowering signal later seemed to have made a big difference, to pick dynamics and feel. I should test more, maybe this is as big as the input level fiasco, or maybe it's my imagination, but in any case i preferred the next option.
As good as neural dsp was, the free and completely unrelated but similarly named, neural amp modeler, using a capture without cab is perfection. I'm using a really detailed Princeton capture which matches my speaker perfectly. This is the only option that I prefer to my little tube amp, since now I can get a beautiful fender sound with punch and clarity that my little amp couldn't get. There's also a great tone king capture so I can choose between deluxe breakup or princeton breakup.
At low volumes (75-90 or less if you prefer, so not super low), either the Oxford inflator (cheap right now) or free clone of it if you use Reaper (Google it, i think it's jcinflator), give a loudness boost which makes an incredible difference. Clearer, punchier, richer, but less hearing damage because you can drop the volume. With these you could get a better than real sound at low volumes.
A real cab in a small room needs to be positioned right(ish). Initially i had the Jensen speaker pointed straight at me, but there's a reason people swap that speaker out. I moved it so it points at my feet when i play and it sounds great.
At bedroom volumes, add eq at the last stage before sending the signal to alter your speaker to taste. You don't need to be precise, just add or remove frequencies and compare before/after to make sure it's an improvement. You can make a speaker sound like a different model really easily with a few tweaks, though this is completely optional and I no longer do this after moving the cab. I like a low shelf to give the Jensen some more extension, but another speaker may have the reverse problem. If you want to get technical, the manufacturers have all the frequency response graphs online. I overlayed them in Photoshop and made some approximate tweaks to get my Jensen to sound like a greenback when I want it to.
Sanity check your setup by finding an impulse response of your speaker. In reaper i have pedals and amp on one channel, that I route to my cab and monitors separately. On the monitors i add an ir loader, on the cab I add the inflator. If your audio interface has enough channels, this can help tweak eq if your power amp colours the sound. If i switch from cab to monitors it sounds exactly like a recorded version of what I hear in the room.
For reverb, check Mr Cordy's video on the spring reverb models in the helix, the neural dsp one feels really bland in comparison. I do prefer splitting the signal in native, putting the reverb on one path with mix 100% and adjusting level to get the right amount, and i can experiment with chaining reverb that way.
Gain staging matters to getting a good feel.
Final thing, it's really worth it if you have the space for a cab at home. The little amps are cheap and smash, and the sound is easily better and more versatile than the katana i borrowed for comparison. You can use any cab or amp with a loop, so nothing is wasted when it comes time to gig. If you have to stick with monitors, I too prefer eq curves like the ones mentioned in this video over impulses responses.
I think maybe a good comparison would be a 4K television. No matter how crisp and clear the picture is, when you see things in real life, it is light reflected off of something back to your eyes, where as a television is light projected to your eyes. The television is the light source, whereas when you see something in real life it is a reflection. As clear as the TV may be, it's not going to seem real because your brain is perceiving it differently.
The flaw in Mr Klein's reasoning, is that although technically correct that the amp itself has been modeled well, the amp in the real world does not work like a disconnected module. It is a living breathing electrical system or circuit. That means that there is feedback and interplay between the amp itself and the speaker that it is connected to. So if you model only the output from the amp you ignore the interplay and an interchange between the speaker and the cabinet which can change character. I'm not just talking about the character of the speaker itself producing sound. I'm talking about the electrical interaction between the oscillation of the speaker it's magnet and the electrical signals that are pushed back and forth. You cannot model the amp in isolation and expect to get the exact same thing when you connect it to some speaker. If you can tap the output of an amp while it is at the same time interacting with an actual speaker you're going to get much closer. so using something like a freight power station which has a dedicated line out allows you to connect it to a speaker cabinet while recording a line out from the app itself. This gets you closer but it's not exactly the same either. Because the freight power station itself is adding another set of electrical components that interplay. Additionally the type of speaker will also have an effect. So if you model your amplifier using the same exact speaker you're going to be using live this will be much closer. But if you model it using a completely different speaker with a wildly different specs it may not end up sounding the way you like.
To summarize, cab is more important than the amp just like the ir is more important than the amp sim, that means real amp with an IR vs Amp sim with a real cab, option 2 would make more of a difference
I do need to "amp in the room" feel, but wouldn't want to miss the advantages of modelers anymore. I go with modeler into amp. I basically do what Fractal Cliff suggests. The IR is off and I use the modeler's EQ to bump up the lows a bit and lob off the highs and all the harshness. Absolutely happy with that solution.
I walked into a small venue where they had a central mixing console and enough house support to run two massive stacks of speakers they owned(think maybe 6x5 stacks of 4x12 cabs two of them, one on each side of the stage...and to this I hooked up a lowly GNX3 (digitech GARBAGE)...it sounded glorious...never been closer to the sound of a real am unless playing through a real amp...except this sound with those stacks , in this small theater...was even more massive and I own two 4x12's and run them off Marks (IVb)!!!
I think this has to do with how you are socialized. If you started early on playing on stage you are accustomed to how a stack sounds. If you are (like most of us now) a bedroom guitarist, you are more accustomed to studio recordings and how a guitar sounds after amp, cabinet, microphone, tape/CD mix, speaker/headphones and you expect that tone of your guitar, too.
To get a pleasing and balanced guitar tone, most often two or more mic's will be mixed and equalized. But the same can be done directly with IR's themselves which is a useful shortcut when you're bounded to using a single IR in a live or rehearsal situation, or even when recording. A single mic IR can often have a very specific sound with some tonal spikes or dips which does not sound appropriate for all your sounds. You can do this yourself in a DAW or free IR's can be found online which are already premixed from multiple single mic IR's. I found one which I'm very satisfied with and I use the same one for years now in all my IR pedals and plugins and use it for every genre. Since it's already has a balanced tone, some gentle further equalizing is all what's needed to shape the tone (apart from from preamp choice and other effects of course).
it's simple.
most often you're hearing an IR which is a miced up cab, where's with an analog rig, you're hearing just the cab without the microphone.
plug in a modeler (without the cab/ir block) into a poweramp and into a cab and let's see if anyone can tell the difference
The Kemper Kab is the best I have found so far, bringing back the “amp in the room” sound and feel. Then again, the Kemper Kone was designed by Celestion specifically for the Kemper.
Imagine listening to a beautiful woman sing and play grand piano in the same room as you. The sound comes right from the piano's harp and from the singer's vocal chords right to your ears. The environment you're in plays a role in the sound and the piano can be felt. That's playing a real amp in the room.
Now imagine listening a recording of that singer and piano played over a speaker. That's a modeler.
Is one a superior experience to the other? Obviously, yes. Why? That should be self evident.
But how often does the average, non-guitar-playing music listener actually hear a song being played with the guitar part being played through an amp in the room? Maybe if they go to a bar small enough or something like a backyard get-together, very limited scenarios where just the amp itself is providing all the guitar volume. Otherwise every guitar being played during music that a non-guitar-playing music listener listens to is going to be either on a recording or at a live-music event where the amp's sound is first being picked up by a PA microphone to ultimately reach that person's ears. No matter how someone listens to music, whether it's earbuds, a car's stereo, at a concert, or on CZcams, that guitar's sound starts from the amp going into a mic. Whether you love the guitar tones of SRV, EVH, Dimebag, BB King, or Brad Paisley, they've all reached your ears by first going into a mic. How many fans have ever heard of how Hendrix's actual amp sounded "in the room"? Or Vai's amp? Maybe if you are in the first few rows of his show and are directly in front of the amp. Otherwise it's all through a mic. And when music is made by mic'ing an amp, whether it's being recorded or ran to the FOH at a live show, that in itself makes the "real amp in a room" sound irrelevant because it has now been converted to whatever the mic picked up, through the mixing board, to the PA loudspeakers or the recording tape. It's after this point the sound reaches the audience's ears, and because of this whole process, is there really any discernable tone difference between an amp and a modeler?
I think lots of musicians complaining about modeling experience never been to recording studio.
When I recorded my songs in studio, mic and cab was in another room so basically what I've heard was final sound in headphones or monitors. This is for me the same kind of experience as play to the computer, via vst through monitors or headphones. I see no difference. Of course it sounds different than real amp and a cab because of room reflections and another things mentioned in the video but for the recording purposes vst rocks a lot!
I think I may have found the perfect comparison for the "Amp in the room experience," but first some things to note. A lot of Classic, awesome recordings were done with the Amp in an Isolation Booth, or a low watt Amp in a Recording Studio and perhaps monitored by the guitarist with Headphones, and then the recording of the Amp was possibly re-Amped or heavily EQed to sit in the mix, etc.
A good comparison for when there's actually an Amp in the room, and it's going to end up on some finished product, might be the experience/feeling of when a friend comes over and has a conversation with you in the same room, as opposed to over a cellphone. Yes, they are different, sometimes better, sometimes worse, usually more convenient and practical, and the end result is often the same.
I don't understand why almost no one is doing this: amp modeler (cab and power section turned off) - into a guitar power amp - into a guitar cab (not FRFR).
You'll have the "amp in the room" sound.
I do that. I’ve set my Marshall up as my real tube preamp sound, and added a couple of other fake amps in my Helix running into the power amp section. It all sounds like a real amp in the room. As someone said before, it’s not the amp we are missing, it’s the cab in the room sound.
I do it with return of Marshall effects loop into tube power section and speaker using my uad amp pedals … works great .. but I still also use my tube amps … both are cool
Doing this is what made me go back to tube amps after many years of modellers. My setup was running the Fractal up to a VHT 252 power amp played through an Orange 4x12 at band practice. The other guitarist I was in a band with at the time played a Peavey 5150 which is also the amp I was modelling.
The real amp blew the fractal out of the water, it really was night and day. The modeller sounded great but when put next to the real deal it’s all wrong. The richness and depth of frequencies was completely different, the fractal sounded “hollow” by comparison.
Great conversation. I’m using the 4 cable method with a Boss ME-90 into a George Benson Hot Rod Deluxe. Many wonderful options from IRs to using the amp EQ as an enhancer. Floats my boat. Your knotage may vary.
I use a NU>X Amp Academy plugged into the Power Amp In of my Boss Katana 50 MkII, and I like it. I’ve never had a tube amp, but I get the breakup behavior from the Amp Academy while getting an actual speaker in the room from the Katana 50. Honestly, I’m quite happy with the setup and would use it in a gig that didn’t have a PA.
"Its not the amp in the room, its the amp, cab and speaker in the room" that is the succinct quote in all of this. I like my Helix, its great. But I like my Tone Master Deluxe Reverb I recently got with its 12" Celestion and open backed cab even more.
I use a Line6 Powercab112+ as my backline in Flat/LF RAW mode, which is just a powered Eminence guitar speaker, no tweeter. I don't put any cab model not this, but do to FOH and IEM. I have compared this to using the effects return input into a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with a Celestion Creamback speaker and it compares very well for that amp in the room sound. I use the Powercab because 1) it's lighter, and 2) I can use it in FRFR mode with a tweeter for acoustic tones. It's very flexible, reliable, reasonably light weight, a good size and sounds great. I find this to be an excellent compromise for live use. The key is to turn it up to where you would using a guitar amp in the room, and that's what it will sound like.
Use eqs, send the guitar mix with your favorite cab ir in front, and use whatever line out with EQ into amps, fx loops of tube amps, transisor power amp whatever, use real guitar cabs with good volume and it feel and sound good. Dont be afraid to eq the sound.
You are right in what you say, that is why I work making Real cab IRs exclusively for Helix (Which is the pedalboard I have and I notice that unlike Fractal for example, it does not have that real amp feeling in Frfr or PA) The IRs I make are different from all the others because what I do is recreate the interaction between the amp and the chosen cabinet system (cab size, open or closed and speaker models, everything influences). I have demo IRs for you to try with Helix in Frfr or Pa. I would love for you to try it and give me your opinion of my work with Helix. Great video! hug! Perry
The Line6 Powercab is only an FRFR if you set it to flat.
If you want amp in the room, use one of the onboard speaker models but turn off the speaker model in your modellers. This only adds a mic on the xlr out of the powercab.
They definitely both have their place in the industry....although more and more modelers are really getting better in terms of acoustics and better fidelity.
I have found the answer for me. I run two 2 x 12 amps in stereo (through their returns) with a Nux mg30, that goes into an ABY. The other side of the ABY is a tube amp that i love. I mix the three amps, rhe Nux gives ne all the effects and gets close in sound to the tube amp, but the tube amp is what i hear and feel on stage. I only have a couple of pedals now for the tube amp, and i can fill out ir lightly add to the sound with the mg30 like icing on a cake. Works for me.
I wish i had rhis rig for the lifetime of gigging i did.
I use an Amp1 Iridium in 4 cable method. I haven’t tried using the helix pre-amps. I go from the record out ( cab sim disabled) into a two notes Cab M +. I can use a cab or not and either way sounds great and my front of house sound is very consistent.
Yep, I tried everything. I had a Tonex. I have a Samp. I have the boss they all sound fake on some level and it is the interaction between the amp the power section of the amp tubes and the speakers.
Especially gain settings. I just went back to my JX head and 412 cab best sound and feel like ever had.
I Bought a QC because i was tired of my amp sound so different in the room, compared to when micd up, and heard through inears. I eq the IR/Cab with a low cut at around 80hz and the high cut at around 6000hz. I then have an eq at the end of my chain (after reverbs and delays) with pretty much the same settings. I do this to not put out any frequencies an amp wouldnt.This, to me, sounds really great, and incredibly similar when heard through my inears, if i have a good engineer turning the knobs! When i dont hear it trhough a PA or inears, i will turn off the cab/ir but keep the EQ on, and go into the return of my pretty cheap boss nextone. The nextone also has some pretty decent power amp modelling options
I have a hunch that there is still room to improve the frontend, where the signal from the guitar is digitized. I have found that putting a really high quality DI box into, say, the XLR input on a Helix does something very interesting. Or the Benson germanium boost set to unity straight up.
My take on it and I’ve played them all, is there is a variability in a tube amp. I can’t explain it other than every component involved in producing the sound you play has a window of drift that can be affected by a whole host of variables that lends itself to sounding alive. I would agree that just listening, you’d be hard pressed to spot the difference, but as the player you can totally feel it and for some, for me, it’s what I prefer. Maybe because that’s what I learned on. There’s just an organic interaction with a good tube amp. A digital sim or a profile is just a snapshot and feels sterile. For me it’s in all the sounds that are not necessarily musical. The string noise under your fingers when sliding, the string noise under your palm, the instant attack of your pick on the strings. All the little things come together to create a more authentic experience. In a mix, nobody cares.
What people who complain about modelers not sounding like an amp in the room seem to forget is that the real amp won’t sound like the amp in the room EITHER.
So much of the amp in the room experience is down to speakers moving air. Especially if we’re talking overdriven amps.
That’s also why most audiences won’t notice if you use a modeler either… because most of them will hear the mic’d signal anyway!
Thing is modern modelers and the great IRs they have absolutely nail the to e of recorded amp.
I think the ‘quiet stage thing’ is killing the vibe a lot. Sure it makes no difference in a stadium or arena…but when you go to see a band in an academy or similar hearing the spill from the stage is magic. I saw Jeff Beck in Southend and sat infront of him and I could hear his plexi roaring away from the stage. In my opinion this is all part of the gig going experience. As a musician I’m sad that 99% of my gigs are ‘silent’ or ‘quiet’ stages. I get that it makes the sound engineers job easier…but they managed for decades so I don’t see why they can’t manage now. We can’t lose all of the vibe of a live gig.
I play - intermittantly - at small local gigs... and when I'm at home, I often play through various modellers on my iPad or Mac - because I can... and sometimes it's fun. But - when it counts and I'm out - I play through an Orange Crush 20RT, with a Cube Baby multiFX where I've got some good IRs loaded - and it sounds great. Other thing - at most small venues - the 20RT is way more than powerful enough; I've never had it more than 40% of full chug!
One of the things im most excited about changing over to digital modelling /helix LT from tube amps, The ability to dial in dynamic ambience effect when using IEMs!
For testing-If you set dynamic ambience onto your expression pedal between 50% mix and 75% and rock between those positions to find the sweet spot with iems/cans on, Game changer.
I've played live music for more than 15 years using digital and analog rigs. If you want to be heard and find the perfect spot on a full band mix, use a valve amp and mic the speaker.
Excellent Video. That is what I tell everybody for years. Its not the "AMP IN THE ROOM" sound, it is the "CAB IN THE ROOM" sound! Good point with the high cut, THE solution for getting a good sound in headphones/in ear and of course FRFR.
I have actually been playing a lot of gigs with a modeller (FM3) and a seymour duncan power stage into a mesa 1x12 V30 cab. Even here, high cut makes all the difference! And you still get that "CAB IN THE ROOM" sound without carrying too much shit around ;)
It just comes down to moving air around with the speakers whether it's a guitar cab or modeler going through PA speakers, you are never going to get an "amp in the room" feel in your headphones or earbuds.
The "amp in the room" thing has been debated both good and bad from day 1 of modelling. I got my Helix just after launch and still use it today. I'm now a "bedroom player" so don't need realism at high stage volumes.
My thoughts have always been that when amp in the room is talked about, the chain is guitar/amp/speaker/room. Modelling is a little different, it's guitar/amp/mic'd speaker.
Modelling works for me as I now just noodle along to my favourite albums. So getting that polished/studio sound works. I get it won't be for everyone, so that is when as suggested, you can take a modelled amp, minus the IRand run it through a real power amp/speaker. combination.
Another great subject JNC...
Two vamps are awesome and like Keith Richards said perfection from the beginning. If you can’t live with the modeling, then I suggest put Ernie ball casters on your speaker cabinets and your combo lamps and roll them around. That’s what I did. I never had a great high game, but I had a music man him which is awesome and its day. I’d roll it in wherever I wanted it on its side, popped the casters off, stuck it in the back tried to put my amp in a place where I could really hear it crank the thing up And I had a Wawa pedal clean and dirt channel basically that was it perfection lol. The problems with a real tube app is what you hear and whatever everybody else hears is not the same. It’s harder to make things up than the microphones can fail the room could have noises that you don’t like, etc. etc. When I first got my first modeling amp, it was the line 6. Their first one the first time I was able to get high gain sounds it also get fender amp sounds plus enough effects and stereo that ran through a 212 inch cabinet if I remember right And you did get an amp in the room Sound maybe it wasn’t as authentic as your 10 grand mark Ness boogie so now I have a helix and twoFRFR speakers that I set right in front of and if you play low volumes that has a great sound, but if you crank it up, it gets too bright I think that’s the characteristic of our speaker. Adjust your knobs for the higher levels. The same thing you would have to do with the tamp. If you’re playing live, each room would have its characteristics and you’d still have to adjust your tone. It’s like the acoustic guitar you can play your wood acoustic guitars at home. They sound great the minute. You need to record them. You have to put microphones on them. You have to put, some kind of reverb on it maybe even a ribbon in the room and you can get some great but on the stage it’s a big problem. Sure they’ve got it sounding really good and using any ears and low stage volumes, etc. they’ve come along way with processing guitars, what a bunch of trouble. Grabbing your grand two bands and trying to take them to a gig where they don’t even want you to bring them anymore breaking your back, rolling them around somebody spill a beer on it somebody drop it. And doesn’t really sound that much different, I say they don’t. I love a good vamp so digital modeling is a guitarist dream. You can buy a model and have the whole kitchen sink of the fax ants cabinets IR whatever you want the whole store stuff and with my helix total control how I turn it on change it stomp turn things on and off in the single switch. If you just have a clean metal and a dirty sound, that’s all you play. You’ll get your too bad and do it but if you wanna plug your acoustic guitar, you wanna process that real quick wanna send it to your doll? You wanna take it to a gig sure you have to reset some presets so it sounds right, you know the sound check I don’t know why everybody’s crying over it lol
Hey John - excellent breakdown. As always, your insight is very helpful for players on the fence or struggling with on-stage sound. I use an HX Stomp XL and Powercab+ live and am in a happy place. I've found the OwnHammer Deluxe Reverb IRs fantastic for warmth on the clean sounds and am starting to warm to the latest "heavy amp" (Rectifier / 5150) Cabs in the Helix firmware (Been using Fremen IRs for years). Also, I regularly use the out into the effects return of backline successfully. Like you, I have quite a few great tube amps and use them - when the gig allows. Having said all this, I'm also an IT pro, so UI, editing and patching is not an issue for me, but can be for old school tube amp guys. Over the years I've set up and trained quite a few studios and players on how to navigate the digital UI with great results. We live in an amazing age where modelers and plug-ins can offer so much to us for so little. Keep up your fantastic work!
Run the modeling into a power amp into a real amp cab. Don’t use IRs. Are people really wondering why IRs into FRFR don’t sound like an amp in the room? Modeling with IRs to me are for recording or a live situation where you would have had that micd up sound anyway.
Interesting. Our band has two guitarists, me being one of them. We’ve both used various solutions over the years. The most interesting thing is that, certainly in rehearsals when we’re not mic’d up, each of us *always* prefers the tone of the other, on the other side of the room, no matter what the gear. Go figure.
The only times I’ve preferred my own tone is when it’s too loud for everyone else in the band.
Real speaker cab and then they do. I A/B’d my V40 head against HX Stomp>solid state power amp - both into the same speaker cab. They’re indistinguishable, so I sold the V40.
Did the same with a 6505 and a helix running into return of the effects loop. I can't tell the difference. I kept both, however.
What power amp are you using?
@@mrcoatsworth429 I use the power section of a Quilter Superblock (running the Stomp into the effects return of the Quilter). Cheap uncolored power. Cheers.
@@poesybeat awesome, thanks!
@@mrcoatsworth429 oh, I should’ve mentioned, while I don’t use a speaker cab block in the stomp for this setup, I still use power amp emulation in the Stomp because the Quilter doesn’t impart any power amp character.
For me it's so much easier to go through a multi effects unit when practicing/recording at home. Live/band practice is with an amp.
I use two Hot Rod Devilles and run my helix to a stereo D.I. Sending full modelled signal to FOH and run cables from the Thru output to the amp returns. Sounds amazing. Great feel and thickens your tone.
Well they do. It's just that they sound like real amps with a microphone in front, going through a professional desk into either recorded medium or a PA. Actual physical valve amplifiers will always vary in sound dependant on the environment that we hear them in, whereas there is greater continuity with modern digital modellers and profilers
I’m using real cabs either with a solid state power amp or preferably in the return of a tube amp and couldn’t be happier!
Anyone listening to your music will be hearing it either through a FoH system or via an MP3, CD or vinyl record. In both cases the sound they hear from any real amp/cab will be via a close mic, a mic preamp and a mix console/DAW. Nobody other than yourself will ever hear the raw sound of your favourite tube amp/cab in your home studio room or on stage.
The amp modellers are going for a digital reproduction of the close mic -> mic preamp -> mix console/DAW sound, not the amp in the room. The modelers are very, very good at doing that. I have an ancient 50w Marshal plexi I bought second hand in 1979 and an equally ancient Hiwatt 4x12 that I played for donkey's years. Then I bought Cubase a few years ago. Wow! Shortly afterwards I got a Kemper. Now I have a Axe-fx III which IMHO knocks the spots off the Kemper. I just plug my Axe-fx III into Cubase via my AI and Cubase loves it (as do my family and my neighbours). It sounds like a real record when I play it back.
I haven't played my priceless Plexi for years. I dust it occasionally out of respect and reverence. I keep meaning to try it out again one day out of nostalgia but only after I've forked out the price of a small family car on pedals, mics, a decent new cab and a good attenuator to match what I can do with the Axe-fx. Otherwise I can't see the point.
Tube effect return or tube power amp in is indeed a decent solution that gets you *closer.* I bought a Line 6 Spider Valve 212 used for $300. The amp alone is a decent tube amp with a stellar power amp. It sends even the power amp in through the 12AX7 preamp tubes, and then through the 6L6 Bogner power amp. It was designed for this, and it does a great job being flexible. Comes with two v30’s in a birch cab for that $300, so it paid for itself almost.
Hi-pass and Low-pass EQ. Then use a QSC 10.2. This is key. Before when I was using headrush I had complaints. Best sound and feel I've ever had, including 20 years of tube amps with the QSC.
I used REW to measure my real cabs and use the global PEQ in my AXE FX 3 to make them as flat As possible from 100 to 6000 HZ . I do use the cab blocks and it sounds and feels good no matter what speaker IRs In the cab block.
I used to use tube power amps but have the best results with a class D power amp with the amp block power amp modeling on.
I figured we were beyond this with almost any modeler capable of a great sound. You won't have the physical speaker action but the tone is there.
I always tell people that they dont miss the amp in the room sound, they miss rhe cab in the room sound. A modeller into a clean poweramp is every bit as good as an amp into a cab.
I’m far from a tube snob. I used cheap solid state amps for yrs. As I got better I wanted better equipment. The difference between a tube amp and how it feels and sounds and how it takes pedals is different. I do have modelers but I am not in love with them. They will never be exactly like a tube amp because they’re not. The problem I’m having is playing the modeler with songs and it doesn’t sound right. Amps do. It’s obvious to others in the room as well. But I like fooling with the quad and I am keeping it. I’ve only had some great Amps for 10? Yrs and less. So they’re staying. An overlooked good modeler that sounds and feels really good is the Yamaha double modeler hd100. It’s also a keeper. P S I’m using a real cab with my quad.
tried line6, kemper, johnson millenium from 25 years ago...not until Axe FX 3 was i finally able to no longer discern a tonal difference between modelers and real mic'ed amps. This is of course with my own custom preset each based on the guitar used and the studio speakers it plays through.
Great video. I agree that a highly directional guitar speaker (at higher freqs) with room reflections is never going to be captured with IRs that are captured with mics and then reproduced with full range and much less directional speakers. Are IRs available that remove mics from the equation? I guess I want to hear a guitar speaker sound, not a mic’s sound
I recently switched to a JBL Eon “stick PA” with my POD go. Absolutely amazing IMO. I believe it’s because the line array tweeters & sub woofer create that wide dispersal sound - that is just what the doctor ordered for modelers. Far superior to a directional FRFR. And of course I roll off the treble around 6K, and bass around 60k. Try it. You’ll be glad you did.
A powered Kemper Kabinet fixed this issue entirely for me. With the use of their proprietary imprints life is good
Just b4 I watched this I watched Burgs demo the Redwood power amp into a Laney 2 x V30 cab using Fractal and he was saying this was a great sound in the room. Again as said it is the speaker movement which studio monitor or PA speakers dont do. I use my Tonex one or Fractal into the send of my Katana and that is like amp in the room. I do it for fun as my stuff is never live with a band always studio stuff and there is no doubt in my mind that the workflow and sound from modellers in the studio is easier and superior to microphones to speakers which I have done a lot of in the past. I also watched Andy James talking with the Captain whose band now use Kemper as it is reliable and gets the sound they want where the amps tend to be unreliable and more to go wrong. FRFR speakers to me is like using a PA and will never work although Guthrie seems to do a good job with his Laneys.😄😄
100% total truth. Well said mr. JNC!!
In fractal axe-fx iii you can add farfield / room IRs additionally to standard IR. I use 2 normal IRs and 2 room IRs but reduced in volume and hard panned and all 4 IRs are mixed to create the feeling of reflections also bouncing from walls and "amp in the room" thing
I still use a tube power amp and cab with my AxeFx Ultra. Sound wise it’s probably a minimal difference but feel and touch response wise it’s something I prefer. Newer modelers sound amazing listening back but all have a different feel when playing through them. Personal preference.
I have an HX stomp, and the best way to use it for me is with a power amp (SD power stage 200) and a cab!
I'm running into a pair powered 8 inch PA speakers and also into a stereo power amp into a 4x12. I love it.
I love my FM9 - endless fun creating sounds- after playing guitar for 60 years, I know what I hear and what I like. Having said this, there is no sound like a guitar plugged into a tube amp- that’s it.
Thanks for the video. Everyone has good comments. I enjoy both, and like many have said, they have their uses or fun ways to blend them. i have only 2 tube amps now, but i have 3 different tube power amps. What a fun time to play guitar. I have finally stopped chasing the amp in the room tone because i realized, like some have mentioned these are two different animals. Takebthe sounds for what they are, if you on monday feel like a tube powered sound with a digital unit, grab the tube power amp. If you want all the digital sound later on, enjoy that. They're all good, Just dont get wrapped around the amp in the room sound.
Mainly because people don’t use them as an amp in a room. By their nature, they are the sound of a post-production guitar tones - the way amps sound on albums. The first thing that should be obvious is, as soon as you are choosing a virtual microphone and microphone placement, it should tell you that this is not going to be the sound of an amp in the room. Similarly, you might choose a nice cabinet IR, let’s say a nice Marshall 4x12 cab, but then you go and listen yourself playing, out of a set of DAW monitors, or headphones. That’s not going to add up to the sound of a real amp in the room. If people want to get closer, they need to ditch the computer out of the signal altogether, get something like one of those UAFX pedals like the Lion, and then plug that into the power amp input of an amp (or just a rack power amp) that’s running into a real cabinet. It still may not sound 100% like the real thing, but you’ve eliminated all the “studio” factors that make it sound like a recording of a guitar, or like a mic’d amp in an isolation room that you’re listening to through monitors or headphones. Also stop trying to polish the sound up with noise gates or any other tools in the modeller. Amps in the room with you do not sound polished. It should be raw and natural, and have imperfections.
Modellers don't model the sound of an amp in the room. They model the sound of a recorded amp. That's a different thing. It's like hearing the voice of someone speaking directly to you, versus hearing a radio DJ's voice that's gone through a mic, preamp, compression, limiting, eq and a speaker.
I use the Two-Notes Opus to go direct. I'm using analog overdrives, and a JFET based Fender style clean preamp. The Two-Notes stuff has a power amp sim...not sure if it makes a difference, but nobody can tell I'm not using an amp.
As an electrical engineer I can tell you that linear systems can be modeled using an impulse response. Guitar amps come close to being a linear system only when they are super clean. Harmonic distortion exists in guitar amps even when dialed in clean. The non-linear response is the part that digital modeling can't accurately reproduce. IR is impulse response. The IR only characterises the linear response. Distortion happens when the amp is operating in a non linear mode. Cabinets also are highly non-linear. Impulse response is incapable of modeling non-linear systems. Linear Systems is an electrical engineering class about modeling linear systems. Digital filters are still linear models. So using cab models are just using digital filters trying to copy the non linear response of a cabinet. The linear response of a cabinet or an amp depends on the input signal level. That is the magic of tube amps and speaker cabinets that is missing from modeling amps. Older players or people with lots of experience playing tube amps (especially without pedals) will notice how a modeling amp doesn't respond in the non linear fashion to thier changes in dynamics, like how hard or softly they pick as well as changes to the volume and tone knobs of thier guitars. Younger players who have only known digital amps modeling won't miss what they never knew. To my ear, modeling amps sound great, but lack the tonal response to dynamic variations in playing that I depend on and that makes playing a tube amp a joy and playing a modeling amp sterile and dissapointing. (In a former life I designed digital audio and analog mic preamps for a well known company that made guitar amps. I never designed any guitar amps. )
I giged on a real Fender twin for years, had been on Helix for the last 8 years and never missed that part about the real Twin one bit.
All it did was give me a hard time cuz I hate listening to loud volumes, also giving the rest of the band to keep up with the amp, giving the singers a hard time to even hear themselves on stage, and giving the sound guy a hard time to ballance out the entire band.
@@Eric-dd8bk Why would you ever use a fender twin? That's way too much amp for most situations.
I use a quad cortex with fryette ps 100 valve power amp and Mesa 4x12 with no IR. The valve power amp makes such massive difference to making it feel like an amp, I have a SD power stage 700 as well and it's a lot more sterile in comparison. Still really good but the fryette is way better. It just sounds and plays like the real thing but all in 1 unit, run a path in QC with an IR to PA. Best of both worlds.
It's the polar response of the cab, and also the room-those two things interact in a way no current modeler + monitor can completely capture. I suppose a modeler that worked in something like a surround format could do better (it would need a lot more DSP and multiple monitors!), but even that wouldn't capture how your amp interacts with your room. -Tom
I've got a Kemper running into the effects return of a Marshall tube amp going into a cabinet and really happy with the sounds I'm getting from it :)
Oh, and another question to all those people playing on stage: you said, your XYZ sounds great or not so great. How do you know? Who played your guitar when you were out there in the audience to listen?
All we are talking here is how the monitors sound, not what the audience gets to hear.
Maybe we should let FOH select the equipment we use?
My best advice to any of you guys on here thinking. How can i get more of a amp feel and sound....simply run any HX or modelers into return of a decent amp. I use a Katana artist which has 13 different IRs built in ...in real time. It reduces latency if you use any unit that isnt Boss. Boss is the only almost zero latency modeler. Also as a amp i use the IRX which will also reduce latency. And viola there is your amp in the room sound. Also using real cabs in stereo is a even bigger sound .
An amp Moeller is the sound of an amp in the room. It’s just another room from the one you are in. It’s like being in a recording studio and playing in the control room with your amp moved up in the live room.
There is no better way to hear an amp, real or modelled, than through a guitar cabinet.
The only reason not to use a guitar cabinet on stage is because the stage is silent and/or you are using in ears.
My concern here is minimal. I can’t remember the last time I played a gig with an amp where I thought my sound was perfect. It was stuck at the back behind the drums or it was under me because there was no room and so I never really heard the amp as it might have been. Now we have the dilemma of modellers doing exactly the same thing. Live sound, unless you are involved in some huge touring show with no expense spared, is always a compromise.
Guitarists tweak constantly whether it be an old valve amp or the latest digital modeller. Just keep tweaking your knobs, everything will be fine.
I got a Kemper about 6 months ago and absolutely love it. Not their power head unfortunately but this is alright. Recently I came across scoring a cool old Altec 1569a power amp. I put this on the end of the Kemper and whole E shit is it amazing. I got some good profiles like Tone Junkies AC-30 and any tube snob tells me that doesn’t slap is fucking deaf. So the Kemper used I paid $800 and the Altec $500. That’s a pretty good cost to what I have I think and not taking a bunch of space. I need about 3-4 amps to do my sets
Simple answer: A copy can never be better than the original! Quite apart from this, a real tube amp you can mod alone with swapping tubes, but also by replacing some resistors, capacitors, transformers, to fine-tune your amp, but you hardly ever can do this with digital gear.
The other thing is, without real anolog gear no digital copies and simulations existed!
But, meanwhile there also is a lot of great analog and digital gear existing, which open a lot more options.
I have tube pedals, which meanwhile make a complete tube amp obsolete, as they sound top-nothc, load boxes allow to transform the sound of a fully cranked 100W amp down to line-level without sound loss, cab IR's and IR-loader pedals even allow IR use on stage and one of my most used gear are a linked pair of ISP Decimator II's, to emiminate almost every noise within the signal chain.
The other thing is, hwo many great sounds do you need? Almost all my guitar heroes played Marshall Plexis in the 1970's (or an AC-30 or DR-103), so they only had a single sound (more or less) and guitar volume and nevertheless even today you hardly hear anybody, which comes close to them, not tonally, much less musically. Today every amateur has access to tons of different (fake-)amp sounds, nevertheless they all finally sound the same and musically nothing innovative or outstanding happens since decades, just endless, stereotypical, warmed up repetitions.
Makes me think about....
Even my decades old JMP-1 preamp or my even older JD-10 pedal still sound awesome today only with a good cab IR behind, so today there are a lot of great options, to get great sounds, or even to get your own, unique sound through a lot of different ways.
For me the advantage is, that I can get the same, authentic real tube (amp) sounds into my computer, for recording or on stage, if I want, with a real amp or even without one, but without any compromises concerning quality, while even the best digital amp simulation solutions means making compromises for me.
You can use complete tube amps, tube pedals or preamps, analog gear or also digital gear alone, but the results hardly will be exactly the same, I think.
A different thing are IR's, they make life much easier and less heavy weighted, while offering a lot more options. Just like a good load box.
So my way is, combining the best of both worlds, where it makes sense, but I still need a least one or two tubes in my circuit, to be happy with the results.
Basically we’re hearing the fold-back of our amp mic’d, without the speaker
Try turning the cab sim off and instead putting a custom low pass filter after the amp block/sim followed by an EQ block to emphasize certain frequencies.